Mmm thalia is indeed a pain to deal with, but you can as easily bolt her on turn 2, waiting to 3 may be too late already.
As for cards that you may be missing, i dont see anything too out of place, would need to see your MB to be sure, but it seems ok to me, except maybe for stony silence.
That card wins games by itself, so im a bit surprised you arent running it. Maybe affinity and tron arent a thing in your metagame?
Well, i would like to see some counterflux in your 75 (specially on the sb) but that one is more of a personal taste.
As for bad MUs i can think of, there arent any that are really bad. This decks selling point is its leveled playing field, and its ability to steal games with geist, but if i had to name MUs that are hard, Jund is always pretty even and can beat us if we draw sub-par or misplay, same for Junk.
Tron should be relatively easy, as should affinity.
Both pods, and kiki-twin shouldnt be hard either, provided you know what you are doing, and dont tap out at the wrong times.
Maybe tokens would be a pain to deal with since our removal and geist are terrible against them, but thats not played in big numbers anymore, and RDW or hyper aggrsive decks are our weak spots, but post SB Helix together with firewalker/finks should do ton of work, if you even run batterskull or baneslayer the game tends to go at our pace.
As for bad MUs i can think of, there arent any that are really bad. This decks selling point is its leveled playing field, and its ability to steal games with geist, but if i had to name MUs that are hard, Jund is always pretty even and can beat us if we draw sub-par or misplay, same for Junk.
Tron should be relatively easy, as should affinity.
Both pods, and kiki-twin shouldnt be hard either, provided you know what you are doing, and dont tap out at the wrong times.
Maybe tokens would be a pain to deal with since our removal and geist are terrible against them, but thats not played in big numbers anymore, and RDW or hyper aggrsive decks are our weak spots, but post SB Helix together with firewalker/finks should do ton of work, if you even run batterskull or baneslayer the game tends to go at our pace.
Thanks. I had recently built this deck and joined a 20 man tourney with it. So far it went well. I won against Kiki Twin, UWR Control, Elf Ball. I did lose to Kiki Pod due to misplays. I'm pretty sure I can win that Kiki Pod match-up because I have Cryptic and should have allowed the combo. I just need to tap all creature before attack phase and alpha strike on my turn.
I had a crap sideboard at that time because I did not have time to prepare. And my boarded cards didn't even show-up but I won so I guess you are right that we don't have really bad match-ups.
I now have 1 Baneslayer Angel in addition to 4 Lightning Helix mainboard. I'll probably put 1 Batterskull on the side. I have 4 Electrolyze mainboard for tokens, not sure if it's enough but that card is pretty stellar against Elf Ball. I'm thinking of adding 1 Engineered Explosives on the side.
Well, the thing with tokens is that they play intangible virtue, so all their guys are, at least 2/2s. That makes electrolyze useless, and you cant really hope to compete with our 1-1 removal when they get 4 tokens out of one souls.
Still, the deck is tier 2 and not played a lot anymore, so i wouldnt worry about it too much.
mmm completely forgot about boggle. I really hate that deck, definitly is our hardest match up, and a bad one, without a doubt.
As a side note, i would never side in a card that needs 6 mana to be efficient agaisnt a land denial strategy as D&T/GW hatebears, so imo sphinxs is a terrible idea agaisnt them.
I just try to lower my curve as much as possible and side in as much burn as i can, this means that batterskull, thundermaw and cryptic command are out, and sometimes even restoration is out.
And i dont think scapeshift is a bad much up, really. As you said, you can do whatever the hell you want for 3, maybe 4 turns. If you cant put yourself in a winning position in 4 turns with a TEMPO deck, you are doing something very, very wrong.
Still scapeshift is not a "good" MU either, but then again, what is? This deck really doesnt have a MU which you say "i already have this" before you even start.
I do agree that infect is not as easy as it seems at first sight, but i wouldnt count it as a bad MU either.
Since we are a tempo deck and not a control deck, we should be playing our snappies as a flash creature on turn 2 to start the pressure if our opponent is not doing something relevant on turns 1, 2 and 3. In those match-ups, we are the beatdown since most of them are just setting up the board and usually have inevitability on their side.
What's the current consensus about the number of Electrolyze mainboard? I used to run 3, but with Zoo making a huge comeback...and I guess just the general 2+toughness of dudes run in Tier 1 decks...Electrolyze doesn't seem as powerful as it used to be. In total, I'm running 13 spot removal, and 9 counters (3 cryptics, 4 Remand, 2 Leak). I opted for 2 leak over the third Electrolyze + something else because I realized some spells I'd just like to see hit the yard for good.
Bottom line, is it really important to run 3+, or can I get away with my 2-2 split with mana leak?
What's the current consensus about the number of Electrolyze mainboard? I used to run 3, but with Zoo making a huge comeback...and I guess just the general 2+toughness of dudes run in Tier 1 decks...Electrolyze doesn't seem as powerful as it used to be. In total, I'm running 13 spot removal, and 9 counters (3 cryptics, 4 Remand, 2 Leak). I opted for 2 leak over the third Electrolyze + something else because I realized some spells I'd just like to see hit the yard for good.
Bottom line, is it really important to run 3+, or can I get away with my 2-2 split with mana leak?
While I agree that Zoo is back, I can't deny that Elf Ball is back as well. So for me I don't want to cut Electrolyze yet. I initially had 2 but I increased it to a full playset on the main for now. I also have only 8 counters main (4 Cryptic and 4 Remand) I'll test and see how it goes.
What's the current consensus about the number of Electrolyze mainboard? I used to run 3, but with Zoo making a huge comeback...and I guess just the general 2+toughness of dudes run in Tier 1 decks...Electrolyze doesn't seem as powerful as it used to be. In total, I'm running 13 spot removal, and 9 counters (3 cryptics, 4 Remand, 2 Leak). I opted for 2 leak over the third Electrolyze + something else because I realized some spells I'd just like to see hit the yard for good.
Bottom line, is it really important to run 3+, or can I get away with my 2-2 split with mana leak?
Tailor it to your local meta... everyone has different prevalence of decks in their area and you need to prepare for the game field.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Everytime i see 4 cryptic command in this deck, i die a little inside.
Not even the old UW resto played 4 cryptics, and that was a more controlish deck than ours. Seriously, stop doing it.
1 or 2 should be enough, i could even understand 3 (tough i dont like it) but 4?
What are you gonna do turns 1-3? live on remands? Thats not gonna cut it.
You need mana leak here too. I play a few snares main to control the first turns of the game and not be over dependant on remand and leak, and it works, but thats just my personal taste.
Everytime i see 4 cryptic command in this deck, i die a little inside.
Not even the old UW resto played 4 cryptics, and that was a more controlish deck than ours. Seriously, stop doing it.
1 or 2 should be enough, i could even understand 3 (tough i dont like it) but 4?
What are you gonna do turns 1-3? live on remands? Thats not gonna cut it.
You need mana leak here too. I play a few snares main to control the first turns of the game and not be over dependant on remand and leak, and it works, but thats just my personal taste.
I don't see what's wrong with Cryptic. I didn't run any and on the advice of some in this thread, I am now running 3. It's been really good for me. I always want to see one pretty much every game. I think 4 may be a little too many for me, but I'd rather play 4 than 1.
Cryptics are really very powerful, but also very costly (triple U). Guess it is all up to you, how greedy are you? How risk adverse are you? Or how do you wanna curve out the cmc of your spells? Perhaps you may even need to play many many games and record the effectiveness of Cryptics vs how much it may screw you up, after all this is a game with significant randomness involved. Besides, Rhinne did mentioned that was his personal taste.
Perhaps until someone really bother to do some formal testing with some statistical backup, then it would be a more reliable guide to tell what is the ideal number of commands you should play in this deck, otherwise I guess for now, it is really all up to your own preference. To each, his own then.
Dont get me worng, cryptic command is one of (if not the) best counter in modern, its REALLY powerful.
But its also quite expensive at 4 cmc, with triple U to boot. Thats not cheap and its not easy to cast either, so its not just for every blue deck to run.
Especially not for a tempo/midrange strategy. Cryptic is a great card in a more controlish build, and as i said, even there it wasnt a 4 off, for the simple reason that if you draw one before turn 4 its useless. You need more cheap counters at the start of the match to take control, and running 4 commands will more than likely have one of them in your op hand, therefore, you start the game with hand -1 cards.
Also, this deck already runs snapcaster, so you can have more commands if they are needed.
If i get to 4 mana, i dont want to use it on a cantrip/counter/tap, i want a powerful threat, or something that can open geist´s way. While command can do it, at 4 mana i can just path/bolt/helix whatever is in my way.
Dont get me worng, cryptic command is one of (if not the) best counter in modern, its REALLY powerful.
But its also quite expensive at 4 cmc, with triple U to boot. Thats not cheap and its not easy to cast either, so its not just for every blue deck to run.
Especially not for a tempo/midrange strategy. Cryptic is a great card in a more controlish build, and as i said, even there it wasnt a 4 off, for the simple reason that if you draw one before turn 4 its useless. You need more cheap counters at the start of the match to take control, and running 4 commands will more than likely have one of them in your op hand, therefore, you start the game with hand -1 cards.
Also, this deck already runs snapcaster, so you can have more commands if they are needed.
If i get to 4 mana, i dont want to use it on a cantrip/counter/tap, i want a powerful threat, or something that can open geist´s way. While command can do it, at 4 mana i can just path/bolt/helix whatever is in my way.
I love Commands and run 3 of them in my own UWr Tempo Deck, but I agree that they are pricey and probably used incorrectly a lot of the time that people run them. The thing that weirds me out the most is that looking back through tournament reports most decks run 4 of in UWr Midrange and UWr control... I wonder if people are being lemmings or if it truly is doing that much work! I suppose when I start taking the deck to the LGS I'll be able to see for myself (just played in my play group so far).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Cryptics are really very powerful, but also very costly (triple U). Guess it is all up to you, how greedy are you? How risk adverse are you? Or how do you wanna curve out the cmc of your spells? Perhaps you may even need to play many many games and record the effectiveness of Cryptics vs how much it may screw you up, after all this is a game with significant randomness involved. Besides, Rhinne did mentioned that was his personal taste.
Perhaps until someone really bother to do some formal testing with some statistical backup, then it would be a more reliable guide to tell what is the ideal number of commands you should play in this deck, otherwise I guess for now, it is really all up to your own preference. To each, his own then.
I think Rhinne's personal taste was for the Mana Leak and Spell Snare, both of which I like btw. He seemed to really hate 4 Cryptics in that he dies a little inside when he sees it and is basically telling everyone to stop doing it. I do agree that 4 is a lot, but like I said, I like to see one every game, so I like 3. I really think having 1 in the deck is way too little, but I guess that's just preference.
Again, I'm just stating from personal experience that Cryptic has been good for me. I asked about the 3U cost earlier in the thread and people recommended Mystic Gate which has helped. Cryptic has basically helped me win games that I had no business winning. Usually tapping all someone's dudes (and getting a card) allows me to get in that extra damage I need to burn them out the rest of the way.
I think Rhinne's personal taste was for the Mana Leak and Spell Snare, both of which I like btw. He seemed to really hate 4 Cryptics in that he dies a little inside when he sees it and is basically telling everyone to stop doing it. I do agree that 4 is a lot, but like I said, I like to see one every game, so I like 3. I really think having 1 in the deck is way too little, but I guess that's just preference.
Again, I'm just stating from personal experience that Cryptic has been good for me. I asked about the 3U cost earlier in the thread and people recommended Mystic Gate which has helped. Cryptic has basically helped me win games that I had no business winning. Usually tapping all someone's dudes (and getting a card) allows me to get in that extra damage I need to burn them out the rest of the way.
I was one of those who spoke out earlier that it would be better to adjust the mana base for cryptics and filter lands are definitely an effective way. And like I said and said again, it's all about preference.
i am never sad when i have command in hand. 4x is definitely too much, with with thrun and stuff a 3x is simply great. i tested it intensively and it sounds fine.
i go 3x electrolyze MB and i am satisfied, too. Now i have to change 2x Mana Leak with a cmc1 counter: which one? Spell pierce or spell snare?
Please before replying read carefully here.
I KNOW that general consensus says the latter over the former, but let's think about it: snare is GREAT against lots of things i already have some other responses to. Bob? already have electrolyze. Goyf? let's go Path.
Spell pierce answers things i don't have any other answer to. Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek t1, for example. Planeswalkers, for example (i know i can remand but i am thinking of definitive responses and Liliana t3 does not allow me to use command, for example). Works even against remand and leak for mirror and scapeshift, just like snare does. So they do different things and they are both good for different things... but maybe Pierce answer things i don't have any other response for. So i think of going 2x spell pierce main.
4x PTE is a must in my meta since it is FULL of aggro decks with Goyfs, Loxodons, Sigardas, Finks, etc. 3x command is great and i never had any mana problem thanks to mystic gate.
last time i went Batterskull SB, but it's great so i wanna try it MB. I also would like to find some MB place for a sphinx's revelation.
I am thinking about taking EIganjo or Mountain out for another Plains, since Blood Moon is a problem. Grafdigger's Cage is prolly gonna go out for Sowing Salt.
It sounds like you want Pierce, so what's the point in trying to convince you one way or the other?
Go with what you like and what works for you in the meta you have. Sounds like Pierce is the way for you to go.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
It sounds like you want Pierce, so what's the point in trying to convince you one way or the other?
Go with what you like and what works for you in the meta you have. Sounds like Pierce is the way for you to go.
Yup, the same i was thinking. I like snare since it lets me save my answers for other things, but that just fits my playstyle.
If T1 discard scares you so much, then play spellpierce, seems like you want to anyways.
Now, if you want my opinion, spellpierce belongs in the sb.
Conditional as it may be, snare is always going to hit something, since every deck in the format has turn 2 plays, many of which are REALLY relevant.
As you said, answering goyf for 1 mana is great, and lets me save paths for finks. Answering bob lets me have a tempo win, and i can save electrolizes for my opponent´s face/DRS/walkers, it wins counetr wars, stops snapcaster, thalia/leonin/quasali/wall of roots/etc etc etc, so its always live.
On the otehr hand, pierce anwsers noncreature spells only, and while every deck plays non-creature spells, in most cases they are not as relevant as creature spells, except in control/combo match ups.
And lets be honest here, those 2 arent the majority of the metagame.
So just SB for the matches you want them in, and you wont have dead cards in your hand as often.
Still, i wouldnt cut mana leaks for spellpierce if you want an answer to liliana.
And why sowing salt? Tron?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
UWR Midrange
BRG Jund
BG Rock
UR Storm
The Philippine Modern Community
RGWUB MTG Modern Philippines
As for cards that you may be missing, i dont see anything too out of place, would need to see your MB to be sure, but it seems ok to me, except maybe for stony silence.
That card wins games by itself, so im a bit surprised you arent running it. Maybe affinity and tron arent a thing in your metagame?
Well, i would like to see some counterflux in your 75 (specially on the sb) but that one is more of a personal taste.
As for bad MUs i can think of, there arent any that are really bad. This decks selling point is its leveled playing field, and its ability to steal games with geist, but if i had to name MUs that are hard, Jund is always pretty even and can beat us if we draw sub-par or misplay, same for Junk.
Tron should be relatively easy, as should affinity.
Both pods, and kiki-twin shouldnt be hard either, provided you know what you are doing, and dont tap out at the wrong times.
Maybe tokens would be a pain to deal with since our removal and geist are terrible against them, but thats not played in big numbers anymore, and RDW or hyper aggrsive decks are our weak spots, but post SB Helix together with firewalker/finks should do ton of work, if you even run batterskull or baneslayer the game tends to go at our pace.
Thanks. I had recently built this deck and joined a 20 man tourney with it. So far it went well. I won against Kiki Twin, UWR Control, Elf Ball. I did lose to Kiki Pod due to misplays. I'm pretty sure I can win that Kiki Pod match-up because I have Cryptic and should have allowed the combo. I just need to tap all creature before attack phase and alpha strike on my turn.
I had a crap sideboard at that time because I did not have time to prepare. And my boarded cards didn't even show-up but I won so I guess you are right that we don't have really bad match-ups.
I now have 1 Baneslayer Angel in addition to 4 Lightning Helix mainboard. I'll probably put 1 Batterskull on the side. I have 4 Electrolyze mainboard for tokens, not sure if it's enough but that card is pretty stellar against Elf Ball. I'm thinking of adding 1 Engineered Explosives on the side.
UWR Midrange
BRG Jund
BG Rock
UR Storm
The Philippine Modern Community
RGWUB MTG Modern Philippines
Still, the deck is tier 2 and not played a lot anymore, so i wouldnt worry about it too much.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Boggle has to be the worst?
As a side note, i would never side in a card that needs 6 mana to be efficient agaisnt a land denial strategy as D&T/GW hatebears, so imo sphinxs is a terrible idea agaisnt them.
I just try to lower my curve as much as possible and side in as much burn as i can, this means that batterskull, thundermaw and cryptic command are out, and sometimes even restoration is out.
And i dont think scapeshift is a bad much up, really. As you said, you can do whatever the hell you want for 3, maybe 4 turns. If you cant put yourself in a winning position in 4 turns with a TEMPO deck, you are doing something very, very wrong.
Still scapeshift is not a "good" MU either, but then again, what is? This deck really doesnt have a MU which you say "i already have this" before you even start.
I do agree that infect is not as easy as it seems at first sight, but i wouldnt count it as a bad MU either.
UWR Midrange
BRG Jund
BG Rock
UR Storm
The Philippine Modern Community
RGWUB MTG Modern Philippines
Bottom line, is it really important to run 3+, or can I get away with my 2-2 split with mana leak?
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
While I agree that Zoo is back, I can't deny that Elf Ball is back as well. So for me I don't want to cut Electrolyze yet. I initially had 2 but I increased it to a full playset on the main for now. I also have only 8 counters main (4 Cryptic and 4 Remand) I'll test and see how it goes.
UWR Midrange
BRG Jund
BG Rock
UR Storm
The Philippine Modern Community
RGWUB MTG Modern Philippines
Tailor it to your local meta... everyone has different prevalence of decks in their area and you need to prepare for the game field.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Not even the old UW resto played 4 cryptics, and that was a more controlish deck than ours. Seriously, stop doing it.
1 or 2 should be enough, i could even understand 3 (tough i dont like it) but 4?
What are you gonna do turns 1-3? live on remands? Thats not gonna cut it.
You need mana leak here too. I play a few snares main to control the first turns of the game and not be over dependant on remand and leak, and it works, but thats just my personal taste.
I don't see what's wrong with Cryptic. I didn't run any and on the advice of some in this thread, I am now running 3. It's been really good for me. I always want to see one pretty much every game. I think 4 may be a little too many for me, but I'd rather play 4 than 1.
Perhaps until someone really bother to do some formal testing with some statistical backup, then it would be a more reliable guide to tell what is the ideal number of commands you should play in this deck, otherwise I guess for now, it is really all up to your own preference. To each, his own then.
Modern Esper Midrange
EDH Jenara ETB
But its also quite expensive at 4 cmc, with triple U to boot. Thats not cheap and its not easy to cast either, so its not just for every blue deck to run.
Especially not for a tempo/midrange strategy. Cryptic is a great card in a more controlish build, and as i said, even there it wasnt a 4 off, for the simple reason that if you draw one before turn 4 its useless. You need more cheap counters at the start of the match to take control, and running 4 commands will more than likely have one of them in your op hand, therefore, you start the game with hand -1 cards.
Also, this deck already runs snapcaster, so you can have more commands if they are needed.
If i get to 4 mana, i dont want to use it on a cantrip/counter/tap, i want a powerful threat, or something that can open geist´s way. While command can do it, at 4 mana i can just path/bolt/helix whatever is in my way.
I love Commands and run 3 of them in my own UWr Tempo Deck, but I agree that they are pricey and probably used incorrectly a lot of the time that people run them. The thing that weirds me out the most is that looking back through tournament reports most decks run 4 of in UWr Midrange and UWr control... I wonder if people are being lemmings or if it truly is doing that much work! I suppose when I start taking the deck to the LGS I'll be able to see for myself (just played in my play group so far).
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
I think Rhinne's personal taste was for the Mana Leak and Spell Snare, both of which I like btw. He seemed to really hate 4 Cryptics in that he dies a little inside when he sees it and is basically telling everyone to stop doing it. I do agree that 4 is a lot, but like I said, I like to see one every game, so I like 3. I really think having 1 in the deck is way too little, but I guess that's just preference.
Again, I'm just stating from personal experience that Cryptic has been good for me. I asked about the 3U cost earlier in the thread and people recommended Mystic Gate which has helped. Cryptic has basically helped me win games that I had no business winning. Usually tapping all someone's dudes (and getting a card) allows me to get in that extra damage I need to burn them out the rest of the way.
I was one of those who spoke out earlier that it would be better to adjust the mana base for cryptics and filter lands are definitely an effective way. And like I said and said again, it's all about preference.
Modern Esper Midrange
EDH Jenara ETB
It sounds like you want Pierce, so what's the point in trying to convince you one way or the other?
Go with what you like and what works for you in the meta you have. Sounds like Pierce is the way for you to go.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Yup, the same i was thinking. I like snare since it lets me save my answers for other things, but that just fits my playstyle.
If T1 discard scares you so much, then play spellpierce, seems like you want to anyways.
Now, if you want my opinion, spellpierce belongs in the sb.
Conditional as it may be, snare is always going to hit something, since every deck in the format has turn 2 plays, many of which are REALLY relevant.
As you said, answering goyf for 1 mana is great, and lets me save paths for finks. Answering bob lets me have a tempo win, and i can save electrolizes for my opponent´s face/DRS/walkers, it wins counetr wars, stops snapcaster, thalia/leonin/quasali/wall of roots/etc etc etc, so its always live.
On the otehr hand, pierce anwsers noncreature spells only, and while every deck plays non-creature spells, in most cases they are not as relevant as creature spells, except in control/combo match ups.
And lets be honest here, those 2 arent the majority of the metagame.
So just SB for the matches you want them in, and you wont have dead cards in your hand as often.
Still, i wouldnt cut mana leaks for spellpierce if you want an answer to liliana.
And why sowing salt? Tron?