I don't think I want to start attacking with 1/1s. But skullclamp, contamination, and blockers are all good reasons to keep it in. If we view the card as a 2 mana wall that comes back every turn with plenty of other upside then it starts to seem suitable for the controlling style. I want to come away from creatures in my list a bit though. If I'm getting rid of the rest of the sac outlets and instead focusing on hitting silly amounts of mana, I want my permanents to be harder to deal with. Sorin Markov starts looking better in this light. He can take huge chunks of life off people the moment he comes down. Myojin seems like an auto-include with this style since we'd play a sorcery that costs 8 and discards everyone else's hand. What else is there?
Well, I play Mind Sludge, Mind Shatter, and Mind Twist to maximize my mana, as well as Myojin. Other than that, it really just allows you to play more spells per turn, activate Chainer as much as you want, and play better through countermagic (all of which are good things :D). Also it helps you hit All is Dust at a much earlier point, and hardcast Decree of Pain if you play it (I need to get a copy to test).
I agree with your take on the attacking, but I found Blossom to be my worst card when I was using it only as a 1/1 blocker every turn. Too many Swords of Feast and Famine in my meta for that to be an effective strategy.
I tested out heavy ramp a bit tonight on cockatrice. It worked well but it wasn't that fun for me. Maybe an aggro-control style would work. Off the top of my head the candidates that come to mind are Abyssal Persecutor, Phyrexian Obliterator, Grave Titan, and equipment.
I tested out heavy ramp a bit tonight on cockatrice. It worked well but it wasn't that fun for me. Maybe an aggro-control style would work. Off the top of my head the candidates that come to mind are Abyssal Persecutor, Phyrexian Obliterator, Grave Titan, and equipment.
I play Abyssal Persecutor, I've won games off of him, but I'm still not 100% sold that he is a good idea. Phyrexian Obliterator is great until the 1st time he gets stolen. No one will block him, ever, and people will remove him before attacking into you. Grave Titan is a mixed bag for me. He effectively gives 10 power for 6 mana, but in practice, he has been a late cut in all 3 of my black decks. If you are going aggro, cheaper is usually better.
I tested out heavy ramp a bit tonight on cockatrice. It worked well but it wasn't that fun for me. Maybe an aggro-control style would work. Off the top of my head the candidates that come to mind are Abyssal Persecutor, Phyrexian Obliterator, Grave Titan, and equipment.
I play Abyssal Persecutor, I've won games off of him, but I'm still not 100% sold that he is a good idea. Phyrexian Obliterator is great until the 1st time he gets stolen. No one will block him, ever, and people will remove him before attacking into you. Grave Titan is a mixed bag for me. He effectively gives 10 power for 6 mana, but in practice, he has been a late cut in all 3 of my black decks. If you are going aggro, cheaper is usually better.
Fundamentally, playing aggro chainer just seems like a terrible idea. Once you cut enough cards to make aggro work, you start to lose much of what makes chainer strong, interesting, and unique. You need cards in graveyards to play with. Aggro doesn't do that. You like nice etb guys you can get value from. Aggro doesn't do that either. Equipment also doesn't help with chainer's plan. If you desire to play aggro control black, maybe switch to drana over chainer?
I am glad to see the change in legend rule. Hopefully it will be easier to keep chainer on the table now. Especially since few decks can afford that BBB usage cost.
Fundamentally, playing aggro chainer just seems like a terrible idea. Once you cut enough cards to make aggro work, you start to lose much of what makes chainer strong, interesting, and unique. You need cards in graveyards to play with. Aggro doesn't do that. You like nice etb guys you can get value from. Aggro doesn't do that either. Equipment also doesn't help with chainer's plan. If you desire to play aggro control black, maybe switch to drana over chainer?
I agree with the vast majority of this. Only thing to add is that Sword of Feast and Famine should actually be pretty bonkers in the deck. I just don't have any spare to use atm.
I agree with the vast majority of this. Only thing to add is that Sword of Feast and Famine should actually be pretty bonkers in the deck. I just don't have any spare to use atm.
Isn't SoFaF essentially a 5 mana conditional mana doubler at that point though? We're going to win through other means usually, so its combat prowess is somewhat superfluous.
I am glad to see the change in legend rule. Hopefully it will be easier to keep chainer on the table now. Especially since few decks can afford that BBB usage cost.
Agreed. Clones used to be braindead removal spells, and now blue players will have to use actual skill to get rid of your general instead of relying on a crutch.
Now if they could just get rid of the tuck rule...
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Isn't SoFaF essentially a 5 mana conditional mana doubler at that point though? We're going to win through other means usually, so its combat prowess is somewhat superfluous.
No. It costs :3mana:, not :5mana:. I know it take 5 total to play and equip in one turn, but it comes down turn three. And the untap negates the negative of having to pay five mana. And, unlike most of our swamp "doublers" (actually swamp +1ers), this guy actually does double it, no matter how many +1 guys you have. It untaps Coffers. And it gives two of the most relevant protections in the format. And it gives +2/+2 and often unblockable on a guy. And then an opponent has to discard a card every turn. Even if the +2/+2 is often irrelevant, the card is significantly stronger than your question implies.
To reduce the number of cards that get rid of Sigarda even more.
The new version of general tuck would be something to the effect of: "If your general would be put into a zone other than your hand or battlefield, you may send it to the General Zone instead. So Sigarda would still get Hindered, but she could go back to general zone instead of being tucked away forever.
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"Psychologically, you have to have confidence in yourself and this confidence should be based on fact." -- Bobby Fischer
The new version of general tuck would be something to the effect of: "If your general would be put into a zone other than your hand or battlefield, you may send it to the General Zone instead. So Sigarda would still get Hindered, but she could go back to general zone instead of being tucked away forever.
That sounds like an abomination. Tuck balances the game by buying time against the most degenerate Generals. It's not as if it's common, and you have to carefully consider how you use your tuck spells. Furthermore, it's not like Sigarda would be "tucked away forever" since green specializes in creature tutors. Uril and Thrun share these tutors, and Lasav has superior black universal tutors. Even Geist of Saint Traft has Drift of Phantasms and Long-Term Plans, and permission, plus tons of dig and filter.
Agreed. Clones used to be braindead removal spells, and now blue players will have to use actual skill to get rid of your general instead of relying on a crutch.
Now if they could just get rid of the tuck rule...
Removing the tuck rule is seriously NOT a good idea. Tucking is annoying, but its a part that adds to the game, especially against problematic permanents.
I went to the shop last night and played with a new guy who used Zur. That was an interesting experience. When he dropped turn 3 necropotence, I thought we were screwed, but I transmuted DHG into Mindslicer to mess with his hand. Thanks to chainer, I got him dump 3 hands, complicating his life with necro out. Unfortunately, he got Zur online, grabbed animate dead and chose my Geth and started using my own deck against us, lol. H was low on life from necro, so I thought I could get him, but he managed to mill me to get Kokusho, the evening out along with falkenrath Noble and once they died, he exiled my yard. And I was pretty much toast with no mana and few toys.
If not for him wastlanding me to death, I may have had the mana to make a difference with chainer, but I was semi land screwed much of the game; I never got past 7 lands. Stupid Bone shredder I can semi say lost me the game. It sat in my hand useless due to the non-black clause. Any targeted removal sans doom blade would have saved the day. Good old Braids, Cabal Minion let me down another game as well...I can forsee some changes to my deck incomming
I went to the shop last night and played with a new guy who used Zur. That was an interesting experience.
He got really lucky that he was able to land an early Necropotence with nobody able to remove it, especially in an S-tier deck such as Zur the Enchanter. I wouldn't necessarily say it means there's anything wrong with your Chainer build. If you really want to do something about Zur, Sudden Death is a great way to deal with Vanishing. If you want removal on a body, Royal Assassin keeps him in check.
That sounds like an abomination. Tuck balances the game by buying time against the most degenerate Generals. It's not as if it's common, and you have to carefully consider how you use your tuck spells. Furthermore, it's not like Sigarda would be "tucked away forever" since green specializes in creature tutors. Uril and Thrun share these tutors, and Lasav has superior black universal tutors. Even Geist of Saint Traft has Drift of Phantasms and Long-Term Plans, and permission, plus tons of dig and filter.
So you're saying I have to load up my deck with useless creature tutors if I want to play around tuck? If sideboards were allowed, then tuck would not be so much of a problem. As it is, tuck is a stupid rule that over-punishes Voltron strategies. Voltron decks already have enough trouble actually killing and surviving in multiplayer games.
Removing the tuck rule is seriously NOT a good idea. Tucking is annoying, but its a part that adds to the game, especially against problematic permanents.
I'm talking about Generals, specifically, not just any permanent. You would still have to pay General tax to play it again.
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He got really lucky that he was able to land an early Necropotence with nobody able to remove it, especially in an S-tier deck such as Zur the Enchanter. I wouldn't necessarily say it means there's anything wrong with your Chainer build. If you really want to do something about Zur, Sudden Death is a great way to deal with Vanishing. If you want removal on a body, Royal Assassin keeps him in check.
I don't agree with this assessment. Zur decks are incredibly good at getting Necro early (i.e. attack with Zur once), and often removing Necro is a benefit to the player who has it in play. It is also often very difficult to kill Zur with spot removal, as he protects himself quickly. Imo the best way for us to deal with a Zur deck is to target them for discard to force the counter and follow up with a board wipe.
I think if jmdt is going to be dealing with this type of deck with any frequency he should look to evolve his list to handle this type of situation in a better, more consistent manner. It's one thing when random stuff happens in an EDH game, but what was described is what Zur does.
Edit: I guess I could go either way on the tuck rule (not just for the NFL anymore :P). On one hand, I get that many people will feel as if the point of EDH is to always be able to play your general. Therefor, if he leaves play, you should have the option of returning him to the command zone. On the other hand, I have no issues with players having to make an intelligent assessment about whether or not to run their general into a situation in which someone has :1mana::symu::symu: open... One side rewards good play more, one side allows some people to enjoy the format more.
So you're saying I have to load up my deck with useless creature tutors if I want to play around tuck?
That's one option. Another one is to make sure you don't make yourself an easy or obvious target.
If sideboards were allowed, then tuck would not be so much of a problem. As it is, tuck is a stupid rule that over-punishes Voltron strategies. Voltron decks already have enough trouble actually killing and surviving in multiplayer games.
Which Voltron decks are we talking about here? If it's something like Rafiq, Skithiryx, Uril, Omnath, or Zur, they're super explosive and have the ability to randomly kill people before they can even mount a defense, so I don't think people who build their deck with that intention have the right to complain if they are harshly disrupted, since they are essentially using a glass cannon.
I don't agree with this assessment. Zur decks are incredibly good at getting Necro early (i.e. attack with Zur once), and often removing Necro is a benefit to the player who has it in play. It is also often very difficult to kill Zur with spot removal, as he protects himself quickly. Imo the best way for us to deal with a Zur deck is to target them for discard to force the counter and follow up with a board wipe.
What I meant, more precisely, is that it is unfortunate that Zur was able to resolve, survive summoning sickness, play Necro, and be allowed to use Necro multiple times without it being answered. Zur is a deck that should be taken incredibly seriously, and I don't know if his playgroup was prepared for it, but it's a shame that Zur was able to steamroll over everyone. Everyone should be at least modestly prepared for Zur, since doing so will make you prepared for most other decks as well.
Edit: I guess I could go either way on the tuck rule (not just for the NFL anymore :P). On one hand, I get that many people will feel as if the point of EDH is to always be able to play your general. Therefor, if he leaves play, you should have the option of returning him to the command zone. On the other hand, I have no issues with players having to make an intelligent assessment about whether or not to run their general into a situation in which someone has :1mana::symu::symu: open... One side rewards good play more, one side allows some people to enjoy the format more.
If people insist on weakening tuck, they shouldn't be allowed to complain when combos become even MORE powerful and their Voltron strategies win even less frequently than before. Very little in this game happens in a vacuum.
Which Voltron decks are we talking about here? If it's something like Rafiq, Skithiryx, Uril, Omnath, or Zur, they're super explosive and have the ability to randomly kill people before they can even mount a defense, so I don't think people who build their deck with that intention have the right to complain if they are harshly disrupted, since they are essentially using a glass cannon.
This is essentially a correct statement. If people don't want to make their decks resilient against interaction, perhaps a game of solitaire would suit their whim? All of the above archetypes can be built to be resilient (see Rafiq deck in my sig :P), and so if you don't build a resilient version, look for a different shoulder to cry on when you lose. If you build a deck that either a) steamrolls everyone or b) loses and isn't fun, you have to understand that the majority of the games will end in option B. *fondly reminisces on all the sad-faced Kaalia players whose day I've ruined*
This is why I support general tucking personally, since it leads to innovative deck building and the need to not just play cards that combo with your general and also rewards proper play (not running face-first into a tuck counter, or creating a situation to avoid that oblation/chaos warp/bant charm/etc). However I also see the side of people who want to always have access to their general, because that is what drew them to EDH in the first place. Pretty easy solution, of course, is to use house rules to allow or disallow tucking as your group sees fit.
What I meant, more precisely, is that it is unfortunate that Zur was able to resolve, survive summoning sickness, play Necro, and be allowed to use Necro multiple times without it being answered. Zur is a deck that should be taken incredibly seriously, and I don't know if his playgroup was prepared for it, but it's a shame that Zur was able to steamroll over everyone. Everyone should be at least modestly prepared for Zur, since doing so will make you prepared for most other decks as well.
That's legit. Lmao, I played a 2HG match against a Zur player who went t1 Sol Ring, Lightning Greaves (on the play) T2 who cares, T3 Zur, equip, attack. My giant did not win that battle.
If people insist on weakening tuck, they shouldn't be allowed to complain when combos become even MORE powerful and their Voltron strategies win even less frequently than before. Very little in this game happens in a vacuum.
That's one option. Another one is to make sure you don't make yourself an easy or obvious target.
Which Voltron decks are we talking about here? If it's something like Rafiq, Skithiryx, Uril, Omnath, or Zur, they're super explosive and have the ability to randomly kill people before they can even mount a defense, so I don't think people who build their deck with that intention have the right to complain if they are harshly disrupted, since they are essentially using a glass cannon.
What I meant, more precisely, is that it is unfortunate that Zur was able to resolve, survive summoning sickness, play Necro, and be allowed to use Necro multiple times without it being answered. Zur is a deck that should be taken incredibly seriously, and I don't know if his playgroup was prepared for it, but it's a shame that Zur was able to steamroll over everyone. Everyone should be at least modestly prepared for Zur, since doing so will make you prepared for most other decks as well.
If people insist on weakening tuck, they shouldn't be allowed to complain when combos become even MORE powerful and their Voltron strategies win even less frequently than before. Very little in this game happens in a vacuum.
How would combos get stronger if tuck were weaker against Generals? Did you actually read my posts, or did you just assume that I was suggesting tuck would not work on ANY cards? Let me make it crystal clear that tuck would work on all non-General cards.
With General tuck a non-factor, players would still have to play skillfully and innovate their deck lists. Perhaps Fogs would become more prevalent (they are criminally underplayed right now). Voltron decks could still use creature tutors, but wouldn't be forced to save them in case their General met an untimely Hallowed Burial. Games would be more fun, in my opinion.
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"Psychologically, you have to have confidence in yourself and this confidence should be based on fact." -- Bobby Fischer
How would combos get stronger if tuck were weaker against Generals? Did you actually read my posts, or did you just assume that I was suggesting tuck would not work on ANY cards? Let me make it crystal clear that tuck would work on all non-General cards.
With General tuck a non-factor, players would still have to play skillfully and innovate their deck lists. Perhaps Fogs would become more prevalent (they are criminally underplayed right now). Voltron decks could still use creature tutors, but wouldn't be forced to save them in case their General met an untimely Hallowed Burial. Games would be more fun, in my opinion.
The big issue that would arise is that instead of having to build with versatile cards and interactivity, many people would simply choose combo-oriented generals and use every card slot to further the combo rather than having to be able to overcome adversity.
Fogs are typically not considered good because it only does one player's attack phase. The card disadvantage vs. effect is pretty brutal. Now, Spike Weaver and in some decks Spore Frog (such as Karador) fog effects can be pretty darn good, but they have to be the kind that are reusable, abusable, or otherwise better than a 0-for-1 for a turn of respite.
He got really lucky that he was able to land an early Necropotence with nobody able to remove it, especially in an S-tier deck such as Zur the Enchanter. I wouldn't necessarily say it means there's anything wrong with your Chainer build. If you really want to do something about Zur, Sudden Death is a great way to deal with Vanishing. If you want removal on a body, Royal Assassin keeps him in check.
Necropotence was actually screwing him over. Every time he drew a hand I was sacing mindslicer and exiling it. Just from drawing he got down to 14 life or so. He finally had to use Oblation on his necropotence to get back into the game.
My big problem was that I had Bone shredder in hand staring at his zur and it wasn't capable of doing anything. Later it was in the graveyard waving hi and still didn't help much. I need a more versatile spot removal in this slot, even if it means swapping to a spell like Murder. I've been irritated at bone shredder before, but is the game I'm 100% sure he's toast. As I've shifted to playing more black decks, the non black clause makes him dead too often.
I don't agree with this assessment. Zur decks are incredibly good at getting Necro early (i.e. attack with Zur once), and often removing Necro is a benefit to the player who has it in play. It is also often very difficult to kill Zur with spot removal, as he protects himself quickly. Imo the best way for us to deal with a Zur deck is to target them for discard to force the counter and follow up with a board wipe.
I think if jmdt is going to be dealing with this type of deck with any frequency he should look to evolve his list to handle this type of situation in a better, more consistent manner. It's one thing when random stuff happens in an EDH game, but what was described is what Zur does.
Edit: I guess I could go either way on the tuck rule (not just for the NFL anymore :P). On one hand, I get that many people will feel as if the point of EDH is to always be able to play your general. Therefor, if he leaves play, you should have the option of returning him to the command zone. On the other hand, I have no issues with players having to make an intelligent assessment about whether or not to run their general into a situation in which someone has :1mana::symu::symu: open... One side rewards good play more, one side allows some people to enjoy the format more.
He didn't even attack to get Zur, that was his turn 3 play. Actually thanks to mana screw and my constant hand nuking, he wasn't able to get white mana for some turns to get zur out.
I have been facing more 'powerhouse' tier 1 commanders lately, and it definitely makes me rethink the removal suite a bit. The stax guys don't hold the weight they used to. If you play stax, you have to go all in for it to be effective and Id prefer not go that route. I really need to up the spot removal to keep problematic commanders off the field early while I build up my resources.
How would combos get stronger if tuck were weaker against Generals? Did you actually read my posts, or did you just assume that I was suggesting tuck would not work on ANY cards? Let me make it crystal clear that tuck would work on all non-General cards.
With General tuck a non-factor, players would still have to play skillfully and innovate their deck lists. Perhaps Fogs would become more prevalent (they are criminally underplayed right now). Voltron decks could still use creature tutors, but wouldn't be forced to save them in case their General met an untimely Hallowed Burial. Games would be more fun, in my opinion.
Removing commander tuck is a terrible idea. There is always atleast 1 tuck in every play session in my group. If something gets tucked, its because it needs to be. Tuck gives answers and adds new thought processes to the game. If I suspect a tuck, I hold on my play, let someone else eat it, or wait for a counter to back up my play. I've seen as many as 5 counterspells drop on a tuck before. That is drama that is fun for the game.
The more I played with and focused on stax, the stronger it got. But the games got a lot less fun. And that defeats the purpose. I cut tangle wire for Worn Powerstone, smokestack for barter in blood, and kept in braids. I'm still running Contamination too but that's because I see it as more of just a mono black control card, and people can usually deal with it eventually... after I've made all the land drops I wanted. Oh and a while back I cut Mindslicer for Mind Twist. The only sac outlets I'm running are ashnod's and Phyrexian Altar but I think they're all I need since I can tutor for them when its time to start kokolooping.
Sickening Shoal for Bone Shredder - I needed universal spot removal and as basically free, this seems like a good place to look. Throst speaks highly of this card.
Dark Confidant for Ogre Slumlord - I figured while making changes may as well try Bob. Without the Stax guys, tokens are less relevant so slumlord was an easier choice.
Vampiric Tutor for Diabolic Tutor - Since I added Bob in, I ponied up and finally got that lower CMC Vamp tutor.
Memory Jar for Bloodline Keeper - I was wanting to try jar for a while and was tuck on a good swap. Keeper narrowly edged out Solemn Simulacrum as the card I swapped jar in for.
I got 1 game in trying the mentioned changes. I didn't get to many of the new cards like i wished, but Sign in blood early and then again with XHD proved to give me some nice fuel. All is Dust absolutely saved my hide; I really should have added the card earlier. It saved me from getting ran over and helped remove a PW that was about to ultimate next turn. I was really hoping to see Dark Confidant, Sickening Shoal, and Memory Jar, but they evaded me that game. I ultimately lost as I had out a billion land, cabal Coffers and Vesuva copying coffers and nothing to do with it, but overall, the deck performed well and blew much up.
I almost got a Blood Scrivener, but I wanted to test a couple games before going that direction, although he could be a better option that Solemn Simulacrum in the long run.
You can hard cast it.
Sickening Shoal is a card I never use lightly, I hold onto it basically to keep be from losing, or to kill the only creature keeping me from losing.
The only time i cast it early on is to get rid of kaalia, jhoria, arcuum, azusa, or omnath.
Left unattended early game those generals tend to get out of hand.
The 2for1 is usually okay as later game we usually have great card advantage.
Oh yeah, and dont forget beseech the queen is 6cc.
Awesome for shoal, not so awesome for confidant.
Well, I play Mind Sludge, Mind Shatter, and Mind Twist to maximize my mana, as well as Myojin. Other than that, it really just allows you to play more spells per turn, activate Chainer as much as you want, and play better through countermagic (all of which are good things :D). Also it helps you hit All is Dust at a much earlier point, and hardcast Decree of Pain if you play it (I need to get a copy to test).
I agree with your take on the attacking, but I found Blossom to be my worst card when I was using it only as a 1/1 blocker every turn. Too many Swords of Feast and Famine in my meta for that to be an effective strategy.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
The better aggro creatures I've found in black are Nirkana Revenant, Drana, Kalastria Highborn and Korlash, Heir to Blackblade. X and growth guys give you the most bang for the buck. Even little Nantuko Shade can drop a serious beating late in the game.
I play Abyssal Persecutor, I've won games off of him, but I'm still not 100% sold that he is a good idea. Phyrexian Obliterator is great until the 1st time he gets stolen. No one will block him, ever, and people will remove him before attacking into you. Grave Titan is a mixed bag for me. He effectively gives 10 power for 6 mana, but in practice, he has been a late cut in all 3 of my black decks. If you are going aggro, cheaper is usually better.
Lashwrithe and Sword of Feast and Famine are probably the overall most effective equipment you can run with Nightmare Lash, Strata Scythe, and Sword of Fire and Ice also great options. Strata Scythe seems kinda bad, but it counts opponents lands so the bonus can be large. If you want to commit to the aggro package, Dauthi Embrace is also highly recommended to push the damage through.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
Fundamentally, playing aggro chainer just seems like a terrible idea. Once you cut enough cards to make aggro work, you start to lose much of what makes chainer strong, interesting, and unique. You need cards in graveyards to play with. Aggro doesn't do that. You like nice etb guys you can get value from. Aggro doesn't do that either. Equipment also doesn't help with chainer's plan. If you desire to play aggro control black, maybe switch to drana over chainer?
RWU Nom Nom Numot: The Hungry Devastator
GUB Damia's BUG-ifact Parade: all artifacts, all the time
GWG Trostani, Selesnya's Voice of Madness
GUG Edric, weenie master of DOOM
BRB Olivia Voldaren, Your creatures = MINE!
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
I agree with the vast majority of this. Only thing to add is that Sword of Feast and Famine should actually be pretty bonkers in the deck. I just don't have any spare to use atm.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
Isn't SoFaF essentially a 5 mana conditional mana doubler at that point though? We're going to win through other means usually, so its combat prowess is somewhat superfluous.
RWU Nom Nom Numot: The Hungry Devastator
GUB Damia's BUG-ifact Parade: all artifacts, all the time
GWG Trostani, Selesnya's Voice of Madness
GUG Edric, weenie master of DOOM
BRB Olivia Voldaren, Your creatures = MINE!
Agreed. Clones used to be braindead removal spells, and now blue players will have to use actual skill to get rid of your general instead of relying on a crutch.
Now if they could just get rid of the tuck rule...
To reduce the number of cards that get rid of Sigarda even more.
No. It costs :3mana:, not :5mana:. I know it take 5 total to play and equip in one turn, but it comes down turn three. And the untap negates the negative of having to pay five mana. And, unlike most of our swamp "doublers" (actually swamp +1ers), this guy actually does double it, no matter how many +1 guys you have. It untaps Coffers. And it gives two of the most relevant protections in the format. And it gives +2/+2 and often unblockable on a guy. And then an opponent has to discard a card every turn. Even if the +2/+2 is often irrelevant, the card is significantly stronger than your question implies.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
The new version of general tuck would be something to the effect of: "If your general would be put into a zone other than your hand or battlefield, you may send it to the General Zone instead. So Sigarda would still get Hindered, but she could go back to general zone instead of being tucked away forever.
That sounds like an abomination. Tuck balances the game by buying time against the most degenerate Generals. It's not as if it's common, and you have to carefully consider how you use your tuck spells. Furthermore, it's not like Sigarda would be "tucked away forever" since green specializes in creature tutors. Uril and Thrun share these tutors, and Lasav has superior black universal tutors. Even Geist of Saint Traft has Drift of Phantasms and Long-Term Plans, and permission, plus tons of dig and filter.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
Removing the tuck rule is seriously NOT a good idea. Tucking is annoying, but its a part that adds to the game, especially against problematic permanents.
I went to the shop last night and played with a new guy who used Zur. That was an interesting experience. When he dropped turn 3 necropotence, I thought we were screwed, but I transmuted DHG into Mindslicer to mess with his hand. Thanks to chainer, I got him dump 3 hands, complicating his life with necro out. Unfortunately, he got Zur online, grabbed animate dead and chose my Geth and started using my own deck against us, lol. H was low on life from necro, so I thought I could get him, but he managed to mill me to get Kokusho, the evening out along with falkenrath Noble and once they died, he exiled my yard. And I was pretty much toast with no mana and few toys.
If not for him wastlanding me to death, I may have had the mana to make a difference with chainer, but I was semi land screwed much of the game; I never got past 7 lands. Stupid Bone shredder I can semi say lost me the game. It sat in my hand useless due to the non-black clause. Any targeted removal sans doom blade would have saved the day. Good old Braids, Cabal Minion let me down another game as well...I can forsee some changes to my deck incomming
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
He got really lucky that he was able to land an early Necropotence with nobody able to remove it, especially in an S-tier deck such as Zur the Enchanter. I wouldn't necessarily say it means there's anything wrong with your Chainer build. If you really want to do something about Zur, Sudden Death is a great way to deal with Vanishing. If you want removal on a body, Royal Assassin keeps him in check.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
So you're saying I have to load up my deck with useless creature tutors if I want to play around tuck? If sideboards were allowed, then tuck would not be so much of a problem. As it is, tuck is a stupid rule that over-punishes Voltron strategies. Voltron decks already have enough trouble actually killing and surviving in multiplayer games.
I'm talking about Generals, specifically, not just any permanent. You would still have to pay General tax to play it again.
I don't agree with this assessment. Zur decks are incredibly good at getting Necro early (i.e. attack with Zur once), and often removing Necro is a benefit to the player who has it in play. It is also often very difficult to kill Zur with spot removal, as he protects himself quickly. Imo the best way for us to deal with a Zur deck is to target them for discard to force the counter and follow up with a board wipe.
I think if jmdt is going to be dealing with this type of deck with any frequency he should look to evolve his list to handle this type of situation in a better, more consistent manner. It's one thing when random stuff happens in an EDH game, but what was described is what Zur does.
Edit: I guess I could go either way on the tuck rule (not just for the NFL anymore :P). On one hand, I get that many people will feel as if the point of EDH is to always be able to play your general. Therefor, if he leaves play, you should have the option of returning him to the command zone. On the other hand, I have no issues with players having to make an intelligent assessment about whether or not to run their general into a situation in which someone has :1mana::symu::symu: open... One side rewards good play more, one side allows some people to enjoy the format more.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
That's one option. Another one is to make sure you don't make yourself an easy or obvious target.
Which Voltron decks are we talking about here? If it's something like Rafiq, Skithiryx, Uril, Omnath, or Zur, they're super explosive and have the ability to randomly kill people before they can even mount a defense, so I don't think people who build their deck with that intention have the right to complain if they are harshly disrupted, since they are essentially using a glass cannon.
If you're describing something like Thrun, Geist, Sigarda, Thada Adel, Glissa, or Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, you should have other wincons anyway. It's not very difficult to load a bunch of equipment or auras onto an Inkmoth Nexus, Mirran Crusader, Phyrexian Crusader, Blighted Agent, Viridian Corrupter, or Kuldotha Phoenix, is it? How about including a few bomb sorceries such as Enduring Ideal, Army of the Damned, Rite of Replication, Tooth and Nail, or Insurrection?
What I meant, more precisely, is that it is unfortunate that Zur was able to resolve, survive summoning sickness, play Necro, and be allowed to use Necro multiple times without it being answered. Zur is a deck that should be taken incredibly seriously, and I don't know if his playgroup was prepared for it, but it's a shame that Zur was able to steamroll over everyone. Everyone should be at least modestly prepared for Zur, since doing so will make you prepared for most other decks as well.
If people insist on weakening tuck, they shouldn't be allowed to complain when combos become even MORE powerful and their Voltron strategies win even less frequently than before. Very little in this game happens in a vacuum.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
This is essentially a correct statement. If people don't want to make their decks resilient against interaction, perhaps a game of solitaire would suit their whim? All of the above archetypes can be built to be resilient (see Rafiq deck in my sig :P), and so if you don't build a resilient version, look for a different shoulder to cry on when you lose. If you build a deck that either a) steamrolls everyone or b) loses and isn't fun, you have to understand that the majority of the games will end in option B. *fondly reminisces on all the sad-faced Kaalia players whose day I've ruined*
This is why I support general tucking personally, since it leads to innovative deck building and the need to not just play cards that combo with your general and also rewards proper play (not running face-first into a tuck counter, or creating a situation to avoid that oblation/chaos warp/bant charm/etc). However I also see the side of people who want to always have access to their general, because that is what drew them to EDH in the first place. Pretty easy solution, of course, is to use house rules to allow or disallow tucking as your group sees fit.
That's legit. Lmao, I played a 2HG match against a Zur player who went t1 Sol Ring, Lightning Greaves (on the play) T2 who cares, T3 Zur, equip, attack. My giant did not win that battle.
Yup.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
How would combos get stronger if tuck were weaker against Generals? Did you actually read my posts, or did you just assume that I was suggesting tuck would not work on ANY cards? Let me make it crystal clear that tuck would work on all non-General cards.
With General tuck a non-factor, players would still have to play skillfully and innovate their deck lists. Perhaps Fogs would become more prevalent (they are criminally underplayed right now). Voltron decks could still use creature tutors, but wouldn't be forced to save them in case their General met an untimely Hallowed Burial. Games would be more fun, in my opinion.
The big issue that would arise is that instead of having to build with versatile cards and interactivity, many people would simply choose combo-oriented generals and use every card slot to further the combo rather than having to be able to overcome adversity.
Fogs are typically not considered good because it only does one player's attack phase. The card disadvantage vs. effect is pretty brutal. Now, Spike Weaver and in some decks Spore Frog (such as Karador) fog effects can be pretty darn good, but they have to be the kind that are reusable, abusable, or otherwise better than a 0-for-1 for a turn of respite.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
Necropotence was actually screwing him over. Every time he drew a hand I was sacing mindslicer and exiling it. Just from drawing he got down to 14 life or so. He finally had to use Oblation on his necropotence to get back into the game.
My big problem was that I had Bone shredder in hand staring at his zur and it wasn't capable of doing anything. Later it was in the graveyard waving hi and still didn't help much. I need a more versatile spot removal in this slot, even if it means swapping to a spell like Murder. I've been irritated at bone shredder before, but is the game I'm 100% sure he's toast. As I've shifted to playing more black decks, the non black clause makes him dead too often.
He didn't even attack to get Zur, that was his turn 3 play. Actually thanks to mana screw and my constant hand nuking, he wasn't able to get white mana for some turns to get zur out.
I have been facing more 'powerhouse' tier 1 commanders lately, and it definitely makes me rethink the removal suite a bit. The stax guys don't hold the weight they used to. If you play stax, you have to go all in for it to be effective and Id prefer not go that route. I really need to up the spot removal to keep problematic commanders off the field early while I build up my resources.
Removing commander tuck is a terrible idea. There is always atleast 1 tuck in every play session in my group. If something gets tucked, its because it needs to be. Tuck gives answers and adds new thought processes to the game. If I suspect a tuck, I hold on my play, let someone else eat it, or wait for a counter to back up my play. I've seen as many as 5 counterspells drop on a tuck before. That is drama that is fun for the game.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
I got 1 game in trying the mentioned changes. I didn't get to many of the new cards like i wished, but Sign in blood early and then again with XHD proved to give me some nice fuel. All is Dust absolutely saved my hide; I really should have added the card earlier. It saved me from getting ran over and helped remove a PW that was about to ultimate next turn. I was really hoping to see Dark Confidant, Sickening Shoal, and Memory Jar, but they evaded me that game. I ultimately lost as I had out a billion land, cabal Coffers and Vesuva copying coffers and nothing to do with it, but overall, the deck performed well and blew much up.
I almost got a Blood Scrivener, but I wanted to test a couple games before going that direction, although he could be a better option that Solemn Simulacrum in the long run.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
I've always loved All is Dust though, I'm glad you've had success with it.
GWUBAtraxa, Praetor's Voice PrimerGWUB
GWURoon Bant Blink WhateverGWU
BRGLord Windgrace LandsBRG
Sickening Shoal is a card I never use lightly, I hold onto it basically to keep be from losing, or to kill the only creature keeping me from losing.
The only time i cast it early on is to get rid of kaalia, jhoria, arcuum, azusa, or omnath.
Left unattended early game those generals tend to get out of hand.
The 2for1 is usually okay as later game we usually have great card advantage.
Oh yeah, and dont forget beseech the queen is 6cc.
Awesome for shoal, not so awesome for confidant.
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains