well, for starters, I would say that 17 lands is too few. You have too many card that cost 3+ CC that you will run into mana trouble often. I would have more like 19-20 if you still wanted to be aggressive in the mana base.
Soul warden really is a very low impact card in this deck as it will only gain you small portions of life, and you deck has no real reliance on lifegain effects, so I would swap this out with (If you have the $) Mother of runes, or if you want to go soldiers/cheaper, dryad militant.
the empyrial armor cold probably be replaced with an equipment that would add about the same damage output but also give some other nice abilities, cards like umezawa's jitte and sword of fire and ice (or the other color variations of the sword) would all be really good, but they aren't cheap.
It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.
well, for starters, I would say that 17 lands is too few. You have too many card that cost 3+ CC that you will run into mana trouble often. I would have more like 19-20 if you still wanted to be aggressive in the mana base.
Hi folks, I recently found a this championship deck that was used to teach me how to play the game. I haven't been keeping up with mtg for years now... I wonder if y'all could help me update this deck with new technologies to give it a modern twist. I will then keep the deck and use it to teach newcomers to the game.
I would recommend including something about tribes, something about equipment, a legendary creature, and some simple mechanics like first strike or flying.
Here's an example list that omits some of the more expensive white weenies out there but includes some "modern" ideas:
thank you for all feedbacks. i realize the deck would probably require an entire facelift if i want it to be completely modernized. the original essence of this version will be lost. instead of going with that approach. it might be easier to find better direct replacement cards for hacker's deck instead.
thank you for all feedbacks. i realize the deck would probably require an entire facelift if i want it to be completely modernized. the original essence of this version will be lost. instead of going with that approach. it might be easier to find better direct replacement cards for hacker's deck instead.
please and thank you in advance.
Unfortunately I don't think there's much point in modernizing the list without giving it a pretty thorough facelift; the "vision" is a thoroughly 1998 vision built for a metagame that rarely exists, even in kitchen table magic. The Kor creatures in the list that redirect damage, for example, aren't good anymore. The Soltari are better but meh. The deck has way too much enchantment removal. Cataclysm is not going to help you win games unless you catch the other guy without creatures, but decks run creatures now more than ever before, and the list doesn't have any removal. Like squira13 said, Soul Warden has little impact. Equipment cards are generally better than enchant creatures.
At any rate, the example list posted already includes a lot of creatures at different casting costs any of which could serve as "replacements" for things in the 1998 list. (The example list, by the way, only runs $25 on tcgplayer.com, and most of that is just because of Honor of the Pure, Knight of the White Orchid, and Mirran Crusader.) So for example, Elite Vanguard might be better than Nomads en-Kor. I'd also drop a lot of the enchantment removal and the Empyreal Armors for equipment; squira13 gave you some money suggestions, and I gave you some affordable suggestions that can still start a clock in Bonesplitter and Silver-Inlaid Dagger.
understood and digested. i really appreciate the intellectual breakdown.
i actually own a playset of jitte. that's a good start right?
Jitte almost always win the creature war on its own. I have Jitte in my Knight decks, and with most of the knights being first strike, I could even strike first, add 2 counters, and remove them again to give the knight creature a stronger toughness. This trick, although nothing new, does catch opponents out occasionally. Even then, doing that on its own will save our creatures most of the time anyway.
I personally would run more creatures, pumping/protecting a beat stick is ok but White Weenie is really about mass board presence and then beat beat beat in my opinion.
I might consider cutting a few Path to Exiles or Swords to Plowshares for some Oblivion Rings to remove any problematic artifacts or enchantments too. If you take my Casual Soldier deck I have in my signature as an example that is a pretty solid amount of removal for Casual play.
I personally would run more creatures, pumping/protecting a beat stick is ok but White Weenie is really about mass board presence and then beat beat beat in my opinion.
I might consider cutting a few Path to Exiles or Swords to Plowshares for some Oblivion Rings to remove any problematic artifacts or enchantments too. If you take my Casual Soldier deck I have in my signature as an example that is a pretty solid amount of removal for Casual play.
I agree. Although you don't need to do a whole lot of redo-ing, as if this was my deck I would throw in mother of runes and squadron hawk. that way you wouldn't change too much but you would add a little more creatures to the deck, but they still work well with the equipment strategy.
It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.
I agree. Although you don't need to do a whole lot of redo-ing, as if this was my deck I would throw in mother of runes and squadron hawk. that way you wouldn't change too much but you would add a little more creatures to the deck, but they still work well with the equipment strategy.
With those two additions alone the deck would be much better. Mother of Runes is amazing as virtually nothing would be removable and with Squadron Hawk you would technically be able to create better draw for yourself by using him and pulling them out. So you would get guaranteed creature drops and a thinner deck usually by turn 2.
looks solid. Although I am not sold on the quicksands, as they don't add white mana. But its not a big deal, and by the looks of the mana costs on your creatures, you can get away with it. If you find that they mana-srew you more then they end up popping enemy weenies then they should probably get replaced with plains. but if that rarely happens, then keep 'em as is. either way, its a tiny nitpick that will rarely come up only every once in a while.
It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.
The thing was pretty good against creature decks and a real terror against red decks such as Red Deck Wins and Goblins. It also had a pretty good game 2/3 against combo style decks, esp. those that relied on enchantments or artifacts.
That deck would still hold up alright now, with a few minor tweeks. Things like seal of cleansig could be upgraded to oblivion ring, crusade to honor of the pure, and there's so many creatures at 2 mana that you can choose from to replace some of the older cards that have lost a little bit of the power over the years. The only card i would really cut is tithe, as these days you need to get the most out of every card, in this case i would just run a few more plains. If you still like the land searching run knight of the white orchid, but still up your plains count to 18+. I know you have wasteland, but that card really is more like a spell than an actual land. If it consistently is being used as a land than you either don't need it or you aren't using it right.
Anyway, looks solid and pretty similar to something i used to run way back in the day.
It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.
Hey guys, very new to forum...today is actually my first day. Older player here and have been playing for a while but took some time off in between. Here is a WW I have been playing/modding over multiple years:
Deck Creatures: 20
3 Order of the White Shield
3 Order of Leitbur
3 Stillmoon Cavalier
3 Mother of Runes
3 Serra Avenger
3 Grand Abolisher
2 Preacher
Equipment: 15
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Diamond
1 Zuran Orb
2 Elixir of Immortality
3 Teferi's Puzzle Box
3 Land Tax
3 Hoofprints of the Stag
Forgive me, I do not know how to add the links and stuff like you guys did. The premise is quickly get out mother and/or pumps but the combo is the puzzle box with land tax, side effect is hoofprints. You can often get to drawing 9-14 cards easily a turn so the counters build relatively quickly, especially if you have 2 puzzle boxes out or more.
Hey guys, very new to forum...today is actually my first day. Older player here and have been playing for a while but took some time off in between. Here is a WW I have been playing/modding over multiple years:
Deck Creatures: 20
3 Order of the White Shield
3 Order of Leitbur
3 Stillmoon Cavalier
3 Mother of Runes
3 Serra Avenger
3 Grand Abolisher
2 Preacher
Equipment: 15
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Diamond
1 Zuran Orb
2 Elixir of Immortality
3 Teferi's Puzzle Box
3 Land Tax
3 Hoofprints of the Stag
Forgive me, I do not know how to add the links and stuff like you guys did. The premise is quickly get out mother and/or pumps but the combo is the puzzle box with land tax, side effect is hoofprints. You can often get to drawing 9-14 cards easily a turn so the counters build relatively quickly, especially if you have 2 puzzle boxes out or more.
Let me know what you think.
My biggest concern is that with all your shenanigans you don't have enough creatures--generally I think you want in the 24-30 range for a strong WW. I understand you will hope to draw a lot of cards to get around that, but I'm still worried about your consistency at getting the right creatures early.
By the way, you can put card tags around whole decks by putting (without the spaces) the [ deck ][ / deck ] tag around your list. You can do individual cards with [ card ]. In general, to see how somebody did something, you can always click on the quote reply button next to their post and see the code (without actually replying).
I agree, the normal for White Weenie decks run with 26-30 creatures to be consistent. You need board presence and hoping to make a select few worth while isn't the brightest of White Weenie ideas.
Board presence is important, 2-4 4/4 flying token creatures per turn isn't board presence? That is in addition to any creature I might draw. It doesn't take long to get to that point, especially with a decent draw.
Using land tax in the beginning to get a jump on mana along with "free" mana the moxes provide is pretty quick to ensure quick board presence. Drawing just increases the speed, in addition taxing thins the deck and with puzzle it also ensures you are drawing more playable cards vice an unwanted land when needed.
Put it in links for ya just others can see it better. For future reference, you can put [*Deck] (cards) [*/DECK] (without the *) to make links to your cards. It's a lot easier for people to give good advice.
Anyhoo... onto the deck. There's a few things you could work on. One of the first things I noticed was how you have so many 3-ofs for cards. For almost all of these, I would up the count to 4. These cards are your bread and butter and you want to see them as much as possible. The only one here you don't need 4 of is the abolisher, as multiples of him don't help anymore than just 1.
Next, as others have said, you are a slight bit light on the creature base. Not only that, but most of your actual "beaters" are all the pump knights, and as much as I love them ( I run their evil cousins (order of the ebon hand/knight of stromgald) in my black deck), they can be awfully mana intensive. I would'nt really want to run more than 8 copies of them in total. You are going to want to try and fit in some good fighters that have good stats without any additional effort besides playing them. Knight of meadowgrain is solid, as well as precinct captain.
Onto your combo: I don't really like the idea of having two different decks squished into one. In 99% of the decks I have seen, it is far more efficient to just run one strategy all out than have two separate ways to kill someone. Basically, you would be better off either running a dedicated combo deck around the tax/box, or to just focus entirely around beating people down with cheap efficient weenies. You tax/box combo does noting to help your weenies strategy, and you weenies do nothing to help your combo. Its a similar philosophy behind people not mixing infect creatures with regular creatures.
Not only do you have opposing strategies, your combo is incredibly slow, and you have literally no way of getting it besides hoping it is in your opener or you top deck it. To be completely honest, I would scrap the whole combo idea and just run more creatures/support. That being said, land tax can still stay in the deck to help fix mana, as 18 plains is awfully low otherwise.
In the end, here are the cards I would drop entirely;
orim's chant - it cute, but it belongs in a contol deck more so than having it as a cheap trick for an aggro deck
hoofprints of the stag - for all the reasons stated in that wall of text above. On its own it is not all that usefull.
teferi's puzzle box - same as hoofprints
exiler of immortality - it will help you stay a live a bit longer, but it will also lose your more games because its another card that doesn't get your opponent any more dead. Staying alive doesn't win you the game, killing your opponent does. If you like the lifegain, knight of meadowgrain will usually gain you more life and actually kill things.
And finally find which pump knight you need the least, then up the other two to 4.
After you make those cuts, you should up the count on all the cards you currently have 3 ofs to 4 ofs. if you have any extra room throw in some stuff like the knight and captain that I mentioned earlier. Honor of the pure is also worthwhile as well.
Feel free to message me if you want me to explain some of the reasoning behind this stuff. Its a lot to take in and I would be glad to help.
It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.
Hey guys, very new to forum...today is actually my first day. Older player here and have been playing for a while but took some time off in between. Here is a WW I have been playing/modding over multiple years:
Deck Creatures: 20
3 Order of the White Shield
3 Order of Leitbur
3 Stillmoon Cavalier
3 Mother of Runes
3 Serra Avenger
3 Grand Abolisher
2 Preacher
Equipment: 15
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Diamond
1 Zuran Orb
2 Elixir of Immortality
3 Teferi's Puzzle Box
3 Land Tax
3 Hoofprints of the Stag
Forgive me, I do not know how to add the links and stuff like you guys did. The premise is quickly get out mother and/or pumps but the combo is the puzzle box with land tax, side effect is hoofprints. You can often get to drawing 9-14 cards easily a turn so the counters build relatively quickly, especially if you have 2 puzzle boxes out or more.
Let me know what you think.
Put it into deck tags for you below: (you can quote this post to see how I do it, just highlight your whole decklist and click on the 4th icon from the right on the second roll of the toolbar)
Wow, that was a wall of text :). Elixir isn't for the life gain, honestly it replaced feldon's cane because I can go through the deck in a couple of turns usually so at times I have to discard 1-4 cards. Eventually if I keep taxing to up my draw I will run out of cards or blow through them so quickly I really need to shuffle the graveyard back in. The life gain is just an add on bonus, I could care less about it. The most important thing about it is it doesn't get removed from the game and it shuffles back in once used.
Everything stands alone for purpose, land tax provides drawing mid/late game, mana retrieval early game. Puzzle box disorients the opponent where as just about everything in my deck can be played for the norm of 2 mana or less. As for adding 4 of each, going through the deck as fast as I do I have found 4 is too much no matter who I play, though I did loose yesterday to a mill deck. Yes it is a strange combo but believe it or not with small casting costs it is devastating. Hoofprints is a very recent add, they replaced outposts, outposts I can do 1 1/1 soldier per turn, Hoofprints I can do 2-4 a turn usually and they are 4/4 flyers....big difference.
Edit: People I play with play those, we have played for many years though since 1996. Most of us are 40 or above.
Another Edit: Orim's Chant if for opponent's upkeep, Grand Abolisher is for my turn. I couldn't understand why people recommend Grand Abolisher and not Orim's Chant, if your opponent can only lay a land you are pretty safe and with Puzzle Box they can't make a strategy.
Another Edit: Orim's Chant if for opponent's upkeep, Grand Abolisher is for my turn. I couldn't understand why people recommend Grand Abolisher and not Orim's Chant, if your opponent can only lay a land you are pretty safe and with Puzzle Box they can't make a strategy.
Your opponent cannot play anything at all ever on your turn if you have a Grand Abolisher on the field, but this is NOT true with something like Orim's Chant. While the card is very good they can most certainly still play spells albeit instants after you have cast that card during their upkeep. So it is able to be countered, creatures destroyed and or other things before that card resolves and before his draw step to proc Teferi's Puzzle Box. So saying they can only lay a land is not entirely true.
Board presence is important, 2-4 4/4 flying token creatures per turn isn't board presence? That is in addition to any creature I might draw. It doesn't take long to get to that point, especially with a decent draw.
Using land tax in the beginning to get a jump on mana along with "free" mana the moxes provide is pretty quick to ensure quick board presence. Drawing just increases the speed, in addition taxing thins the deck and with puzzle it also ensures you are drawing more playable cards vice an unwanted land when needed.
Maybe your plan will work; you apply just enough early pressure that a few of the flyers get over the top and win the game for you. Fine.
But what I'm seeing here is a deck that's trying to be both WW and have this second card-drawing token-making plan. I'm worried that with your current card commitment to the second plan you might undermine the first plan and thereby be worse off than you would be doing either plan wholeheartedly. I think that counsels in favor of upping the WW creature count a little bit at the expense of the second plan/control elements. We just want you to have the early pressure that makes WW tick.
Maybe your plan will work; you apply just enough early pressure that a few of the flyers get over the top and win the game for you. Fine.
But what I'm seeing here is a deck that's trying to be both WW and have this second card-drawing token-making plan. I'm worried that with your current card commitment to the second plan you might undermine the first plan and thereby be worse off than you would be doing either plan wholeheartedly. I think that counsels in favor of upping the WW creature count a little bit at the expense of the second plan/control elements. We just want you to have the early pressure that makes WW tick.
^This. Your current deck is fine as it is, but it wont blow any decks out of the water, and will be at a huge uphill battle against any deck built competitively. I know that your combo and the cards in it do what they do; its just that your really don't need to do that. WW does not need to draw 10 cards a turn. WW doesn't need to disorient people with the puzzle box. A well build WW deck can have the opponent dead on turn 4/5 consistently, adding in the combo maybe fun, but if you want to Improve the deck, you are going to have to focus your efforts, because every other well built deck is fine tuned into its strategy and will steamroll a deck trying to do cute tricks like your combo thing.
Not only that, but the combo itself requires 3 cards, and yet there is absolutely no way for you to get them besides hoping you happen to get them all. With no tutors, draw, or acceleration, (besides the actual combo itself) you have no way to get the combo. And even if you got all 3 cards in your opener, the best you could get it working is turn 5. and even then it would take another turn to kill them with all the tokens. All the while, your opponent has gotten a free 6 turns to build up whatever they want and more than likely kill you. And to top it all off, you have literally no way to protect your combo pieces, so one disenchant/O-ring/counterspell/(any of the millions of other removal) you basically just wasted your whole hand and 6 turns to 1 card.
On the other side of the spectrum, you are just playing your weenies and just trying to beat them down. your are hoping to get one more creature out so you can swing in for the win. But with a quarter of your deck being the combo; you draw something like the puzzle box. and next turn you draw another combo piece. suddenly your creature advantage has turned to dust over 2 turns and you are sitting around with diddley squat.
Tl;DR: same as above guys post, just trying to explain why two strategies that do very little for each other aren't going to make your deck bad, per say, but they offer no real room for improvement besides cutting them for a better WW strategy.
EDIT: oh and as to puzzle box on its own, it effectively does nothing. any well built deck does not feel anything from it. For instance, a burn deck is just mountains and burns spells. Ignoring the fact that a burn deck will kill you 90% of the time before you get the box, you swapping the cards in their hand does nothing, because they will put down the burns spells in their hand, yes, but they will draw that many more cards, which, as you might guess, is just more burn spells. You can puzzle box as much as you want, but you aren't stopping them from playing spells, and you aren't actually getting rid of any of you opponent's spells. they can still burn you the exact amount as they would before. This applies to any deck with a focused strategy. The only deck it would really work well against is, well, yours.
And orim's chant is a one time deal. that's why we don't really use it. it doesn't permanently stop them from playing spells, it only delays them for a turn. And abolisher is better in WW because he's a 2/2 for 2 mana so he can stick around and fight.
It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.
Given the above couple posts, I would like to point out that I do think the combo is neat--it just deserves its own more concentrated combo-control list rather than playing second fiddle to a WW strategy. But that's something to develop in a different thread.
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Soul warden really is a very low impact card in this deck as it will only gain you small portions of life, and you deck has no real reliance on lifegain effects, so I would swap this out with (If you have the $) Mother of runes, or if you want to go soldiers/cheaper, dryad militant.
the empyrial armor cold probably be replaced with an equipment that would add about the same damage output but also give some other nice abilities, cards like umezawa's jitte and sword of fire and ice (or the other color variations of the sword) would all be really good, but they aren't cheap.
Did you read the list? Four copies of Tithe?
I would recommend including something about tribes, something about equipment, a legendary creature, and some simple mechanics like first strike or flying.
Here's an example list that omits some of the more expensive white weenies out there but includes some "modern" ideas:
20x Plains
4x Bonesplitter
3x Silver-Inlaid Dagger
4x Journey to Nowhere
4x Honor of the Pure
4x Elite Vanguard
4x White Knight
4x Knight of the White Orchid
3x Fiend Hunter
3x Mirran Crusader
2x Odric, Master Tactician
Check Knight of the White Orchid above for a nice throwback to Tithe.
EDIT:
I'd use Gatherer's advanced search features if you want to hone in on anything in particular to include in a list.
please and thank you in advance.
Unfortunately I don't think there's much point in modernizing the list without giving it a pretty thorough facelift; the "vision" is a thoroughly 1998 vision built for a metagame that rarely exists, even in kitchen table magic. The Kor creatures in the list that redirect damage, for example, aren't good anymore. The Soltari are better but meh. The deck has way too much enchantment removal. Cataclysm is not going to help you win games unless you catch the other guy without creatures, but decks run creatures now more than ever before, and the list doesn't have any removal. Like squira13 said, Soul Warden has little impact. Equipment cards are generally better than enchant creatures.
At any rate, the example list posted already includes a lot of creatures at different casting costs any of which could serve as "replacements" for things in the 1998 list. (The example list, by the way, only runs $25 on tcgplayer.com, and most of that is just because of Honor of the Pure, Knight of the White Orchid, and Mirran Crusader.) So for example, Elite Vanguard might be better than Nomads en-Kor. I'd also drop a lot of the enchantment removal and the Empyreal Armors for equipment; squira13 gave you some money suggestions, and I gave you some affordable suggestions that can still start a clock in Bonesplitter and Silver-Inlaid Dagger.
i actually own a playset of jitte. that's a good start right?
Jitte almost always win the creature war on its own. I have Jitte in my Knight decks, and with most of the knights being first strike, I could even strike first, add 2 counters, and remove them again to give the knight creature a stronger toughness. This trick, although nothing new, does catch opponents out occasionally. Even then, doing that on its own will save our creatures most of the time anyway.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
4 stoneforge mystic
4 mirran crusader
4 precinct captain
4 knight of the white orchid
Equipment:
1 sword of war and peace
1 sword of feast and famine
1 batterskull
4 swords to plowshare
4 path to exile
4 steelshaper's gift
2 apostle's blessing
4 brave the elements
Lands:
4 quicksand
19 plains
4 revoke existence
4 day of judgement
I personally would run more creatures, pumping/protecting a beat stick is ok but White Weenie is really about mass board presence and then beat beat beat in my opinion.
I might consider cutting a few Path to Exiles or Swords to Plowshares for some Oblivion Rings to remove any problematic artifacts or enchantments too. If you take my Casual Soldier deck I have in my signature as an example that is a pretty solid amount of removal for Casual play.
W White Weenie
I agree. Although you don't need to do a whole lot of redo-ing, as if this was my deck I would throw in mother of runes and squadron hawk. that way you wouldn't change too much but you would add a little more creatures to the deck, but they still work well with the equipment strategy.
With those two additions alone the deck would be much better. Mother of Runes is amazing as virtually nothing would be removable and with Squadron Hawk you would technically be able to create better draw for yourself by using him and pulling them out. So you would get guaranteed creature drops and a thinner deck usually by turn 2.
W White Weenie
4 stoneforge mystic
4 mirran crusader
4 precinct captain
4 knight of the white orchid
4 mother of runes
Equipment:
1 sword of war and peace
1 sword of feast and famine
1 batterskull
3 oblivion ring
2 swords to plowshare
3 path to exile
2 steelshaper's gift
2 apostle's blessing
2 brave the elements
Lands:
4 quicksand
15 plains
4 mistveil plains
2 sword to plowshare
4 day of judgement
Lands:
Creatures:
Spells:
Sideboard:
The thing was pretty good against creature decks and a real terror against red decks such as Red Deck Wins and Goblins. It also had a pretty good game 2/3 against combo style decks, esp. those that relied on enchantments or artifacts.
Anyway, looks solid and pretty similar to something i used to run way back in the day.
Deck Creatures: 20
3 Order of the White Shield
3 Order of Leitbur
3 Stillmoon Cavalier
3 Mother of Runes
3 Serra Avenger
3 Grand Abolisher
2 Preacher
Equipment: 15
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Diamond
1 Zuran Orb
2 Elixir of Immortality
3 Teferi's Puzzle Box
3 Land Tax
3 Hoofprints of the Stag
Spells: 10
3 Path of Exile
3 Disenchant
3 Orim's Chant
1 Balance
Lands: 18
18 Plains
Forgive me, I do not know how to add the links and stuff like you guys did. The premise is quickly get out mother and/or pumps but the combo is the puzzle box with land tax, side effect is hoofprints. You can often get to drawing 9-14 cards easily a turn so the counters build relatively quickly, especially if you have 2 puzzle boxes out or more.
Let me know what you think.
My biggest concern is that with all your shenanigans you don't have enough creatures--generally I think you want in the 24-30 range for a strong WW. I understand you will hope to draw a lot of cards to get around that, but I'm still worried about your consistency at getting the right creatures early.
By the way, you can put card tags around whole decks by putting (without the spaces) the [ deck ][ / deck ] tag around your list. You can do individual cards with [ card ]. In general, to see how somebody did something, you can always click on the quote reply button next to their post and see the code (without actually replying).
W White Weenie
Board presence is important, 2-4 4/4 flying token creatures per turn isn't board presence? That is in addition to any creature I might draw. It doesn't take long to get to that point, especially with a decent draw.
Using land tax in the beginning to get a jump on mana along with "free" mana the moxes provide is pretty quick to ensure quick board presence. Drawing just increases the speed, in addition taxing thins the deck and with puzzle it also ensures you are drawing more playable cards vice an unwanted land when needed.
3 Order of the White Shield
3 Order of Leitbur
3 Stillmoon Cavalier
3 Mother of Runes
3 Serra Avenger
3 Grand Abolisher
2 Preacher
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Diamond
1 Zuran Orb
2 Elixir of Immortality
3 Teferi's Puzzle Box
3 Land Tax
3 Hoofprints of the Stag
3 Path of Exile
3 Disenchant
3 Orim's Chant
1 Balance
Lands: 18
18 Plains
Put it in links for ya just others can see it better. For future reference, you can put [*Deck] (cards) [*/DECK] (without the *) to make links to your cards. It's a lot easier for people to give good advice.
Anyhoo... onto the deck. There's a few things you could work on. One of the first things I noticed was how you have so many 3-ofs for cards. For almost all of these, I would up the count to 4. These cards are your bread and butter and you want to see them as much as possible. The only one here you don't need 4 of is the abolisher, as multiples of him don't help anymore than just 1.
Next, as others have said, you are a slight bit light on the creature base. Not only that, but most of your actual "beaters" are all the pump knights, and as much as I love them ( I run their evil cousins (order of the ebon hand/knight of stromgald) in my black deck), they can be awfully mana intensive. I would'nt really want to run more than 8 copies of them in total. You are going to want to try and fit in some good fighters that have good stats without any additional effort besides playing them. Knight of meadowgrain is solid, as well as precinct captain.
Onto your combo: I don't really like the idea of having two different decks squished into one. In 99% of the decks I have seen, it is far more efficient to just run one strategy all out than have two separate ways to kill someone. Basically, you would be better off either running a dedicated combo deck around the tax/box, or to just focus entirely around beating people down with cheap efficient weenies. You tax/box combo does noting to help your weenies strategy, and you weenies do nothing to help your combo. Its a similar philosophy behind people not mixing infect creatures with regular creatures.
Not only do you have opposing strategies, your combo is incredibly slow, and you have literally no way of getting it besides hoping it is in your opener or you top deck it. To be completely honest, I would scrap the whole combo idea and just run more creatures/support. That being said, land tax can still stay in the deck to help fix mana, as 18 plains is awfully low otherwise.
In the end, here are the cards I would drop entirely;
orim's chant - it cute, but it belongs in a contol deck more so than having it as a cheap trick for an aggro deck
hoofprints of the stag - for all the reasons stated in that wall of text above. On its own it is not all that usefull.
teferi's puzzle box - same as hoofprints
exiler of immortality - it will help you stay a live a bit longer, but it will also lose your more games because its another card that doesn't get your opponent any more dead. Staying alive doesn't win you the game, killing your opponent does. If you like the lifegain, knight of meadowgrain will usually gain you more life and actually kill things.
And finally find which pump knight you need the least, then up the other two to 4.
After you make those cuts, you should up the count on all the cards you currently have 3 ofs to 4 ofs. if you have any extra room throw in some stuff like the knight and captain that I mentioned earlier. Honor of the pure is also worthwhile as well.
Feel free to message me if you want me to explain some of the reasoning behind this stuff. Its a lot to take in and I would be glad to help.
Anyway, hope this helps.
Put it into deck tags for you below: (you can quote this post to see how I do it, just highlight your whole decklist and click on the 4th icon from the right on the second roll of the toolbar)
3 Order of the White Shield
3 Order of Leitbur
3 Stillmoon Cavalier
3 Mother of Runes
3 Serra Avenger
3 Grand Abolisher
2 Preacher
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Diamond
1 Zuran Orb
2 Elixir of Immortality
3 Teferi's Puzzle Box
3 Land Tax
3 Hoofprints of the Stag
3 Path of Exile
3 Disenchant
3 Orim's Chant
1 Balance
Lands: 18
18 Plains
I saw Mox Pearl and I was like...wow.
Just curious, do people still play Balance and Moxes in casual?
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Everything stands alone for purpose, land tax provides drawing mid/late game, mana retrieval early game. Puzzle box disorients the opponent where as just about everything in my deck can be played for the norm of 2 mana or less. As for adding 4 of each, going through the deck as fast as I do I have found 4 is too much no matter who I play, though I did loose yesterday to a mill deck. Yes it is a strange combo but believe it or not with small casting costs it is devastating. Hoofprints is a very recent add, they replaced outposts, outposts I can do 1 1/1 soldier per turn, Hoofprints I can do 2-4 a turn usually and they are 4/4 flyers....big difference.
Edit: People I play with play those, we have played for many years though since 1996. Most of us are 40 or above.
Another Edit: Orim's Chant if for opponent's upkeep, Grand Abolisher is for my turn. I couldn't understand why people recommend Grand Abolisher and not Orim's Chant, if your opponent can only lay a land you are pretty safe and with Puzzle Box they can't make a strategy.
Your opponent cannot play anything at all ever on your turn if you have a Grand Abolisher on the field, but this is NOT true with something like Orim's Chant. While the card is very good they can most certainly still play spells albeit instants after you have cast that card during their upkeep. So it is able to be countered, creatures destroyed and or other things before that card resolves and before his draw step to proc Teferi's Puzzle Box. So saying they can only lay a land is not entirely true.
W White Weenie
Maybe your plan will work; you apply just enough early pressure that a few of the flyers get over the top and win the game for you. Fine.
But what I'm seeing here is a deck that's trying to be both WW and have this second card-drawing token-making plan. I'm worried that with your current card commitment to the second plan you might undermine the first plan and thereby be worse off than you would be doing either plan wholeheartedly. I think that counsels in favor of upping the WW creature count a little bit at the expense of the second plan/control elements. We just want you to have the early pressure that makes WW tick.
^This. Your current deck is fine as it is, but it wont blow any decks out of the water, and will be at a huge uphill battle against any deck built competitively. I know that your combo and the cards in it do what they do; its just that your really don't need to do that. WW does not need to draw 10 cards a turn. WW doesn't need to disorient people with the puzzle box. A well build WW deck can have the opponent dead on turn 4/5 consistently, adding in the combo maybe fun, but if you want to Improve the deck, you are going to have to focus your efforts, because every other well built deck is fine tuned into its strategy and will steamroll a deck trying to do cute tricks like your combo thing.
Not only that, but the combo itself requires 3 cards, and yet there is absolutely no way for you to get them besides hoping you happen to get them all. With no tutors, draw, or acceleration, (besides the actual combo itself) you have no way to get the combo. And even if you got all 3 cards in your opener, the best you could get it working is turn 5. and even then it would take another turn to kill them with all the tokens. All the while, your opponent has gotten a free 6 turns to build up whatever they want and more than likely kill you. And to top it all off, you have literally no way to protect your combo pieces, so one disenchant/O-ring/counterspell/(any of the millions of other removal) you basically just wasted your whole hand and 6 turns to 1 card.
On the other side of the spectrum, you are just playing your weenies and just trying to beat them down. your are hoping to get one more creature out so you can swing in for the win. But with a quarter of your deck being the combo; you draw something like the puzzle box. and next turn you draw another combo piece. suddenly your creature advantage has turned to dust over 2 turns and you are sitting around with diddley squat.
Tl;DR: same as above guys post, just trying to explain why two strategies that do very little for each other aren't going to make your deck bad, per say, but they offer no real room for improvement besides cutting them for a better WW strategy.
EDIT: oh and as to puzzle box on its own, it effectively does nothing. any well built deck does not feel anything from it. For instance, a burn deck is just mountains and burns spells. Ignoring the fact that a burn deck will kill you 90% of the time before you get the box, you swapping the cards in their hand does nothing, because they will put down the burns spells in their hand, yes, but they will draw that many more cards, which, as you might guess, is just more burn spells. You can puzzle box as much as you want, but you aren't stopping them from playing spells, and you aren't actually getting rid of any of you opponent's spells. they can still burn you the exact amount as they would before. This applies to any deck with a focused strategy. The only deck it would really work well against is, well, yours.
And orim's chant is a one time deal. that's why we don't really use it. it doesn't permanently stop them from playing spells, it only delays them for a turn. And abolisher is better in WW because he's a 2/2 for 2 mana so he can stick around and fight.