I use both gay and ****** to descibe things/people that are undesirable. I don't do it hatefully since I'm not homophobic - it's simply common vernacular.
I have homosexual friends that do it too.
I have black friends, so it's ok if I say ****** right?
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
Pringlesman: It's not about being good or bad. It's about being polite and considerate as opposed to being insensitive and douchey.
Duelist: I think it's patently obvious that person 2 is equating bad with gay. And in a culture where gay is used so often as an insult, particularly against those who are gay, it's not really fair to expect those affected to just hear it in a neutral way.
Funkenstein: You're more than welcome to call her out on her hypocrisy.
Mozer: how could it NOT have a negative affect? You are literally associating the adjective "gay" with the adjective "negative". The political observation is somewhat off-topic.
Redthirst: "It's okay if I use that word. I'm not a racist!"
See? It doesn't work that way.
NastySasquatch: We aren't talking about the people who are looking to be offended. We're talking about people who legitimately feel bad when the term is used, possibly because it reminds them that a large part of society dislikes and discriminates against them due to an attribute they didn't choose.
There all sorts of words that mean bad and do not also mean homosexual or disabled. Choose any of them.
Maverick: I rewatched the Louis CK video, and he starts off by saying he misses using "that word." In other words, he understands that it's not acceptable in modern polite society to use it.
If not, then you're kind of a hypocrite... like this guy:
1) I'm a woman.
2) Reclamation is a real thing. When I use slurs referring to groups I'm a part of, it doesn't perpetuate prejudice or discrimination against those groups. It's like how LGBT people have reclaimed the word "queer" (originally this was highly pejorative, now people unironically self-identify as queer), except with words that are currently slurs. Plus the fact that my use is always ironic and/or self-referential, rather than when people say "this thing is gay" or whatever.
OK, so hang with me here. I just want to clarify a point, can I, or can I not descirbe something as "gay" if it actually is (I mean with the expression carries a descriptive connotation and not an offensive one). So, can I say my friend is "gay" if he is? Or do I need to use the more formal "homosexual"? Im not trying to be a smartass, I legitimately want to know.
Going further, how appropriate/acceptable is it for a straight person to use the term "gay" as a descriptor ~ so I can say a place is a "gay bar" (I assume) BUT, if I am not sure, can I say "I am pretty sure that is a place for gays"? Try to understand that I am not meaning anything negative from the expression (but hey, it could be very offensive, so educate me). I am just trying to understand the psychology behind the distinctions.
For example, a friend asks me how how he looks, and I answer (hypothetically), "a little bit gay". Now, we both know I am not using it in the negative sense (that is, that looking gay = bad), but in the descriptive sense. Obviously this draws on our mutual expectation of what looking "gay" is. Assuming that our expectation of "gay" is not a ridiculous and likely offensive stereotype, how bad is this conduct?
I know it is wrong, I want to understand how wrong, as a method of putting this dicussion into context for myself.
Thanks in advaance.
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For example, a friend asks me how how he looks, and I answer (hypothetically), "a little bit gay". Now, we both know I am not using it in the negative sense (that is, that looking gay = bad), but in the descriptive sense. Obviously this draws on our mutual expectation of what looking "gay" is. Assuming that our expectation of "gay" is not a ridiculous and likely offensive stereotype, how bad is this conduct?
It depends. In my opinion, if you're using it to mean "you look like a stereotypical gay guy," then it's not as bad as if you're using to mean "you look bad," which should be avoided at all costs. Though the way I see it, if you wanted to go the former route, you should just elaborate rather than try to sum it up in a single word.
Maverick: I rewatched the Louis CK video, and he starts off by saying he misses using "that word." In other words, he understands that it's not acceptable in modern polite society to use it.
I'm not sure what video was linked, because apparently that's against the rules now, but Louis CK is definitely pro using whatever words you want to use as long as it's not meant to offend anyone (e.g. "I would never call a gay guy a ****** unless hes's being a ******"). His numerous appearances on Opie and Anthony have often led to the discussion of using "taboo" words. If his routines are any indication, he doesn't particularly cherish these words, but he also doesn't care to censor himself or anyone else.
That said, Louis C.K. is not an authority on words, his opinions are just commonly cited on these topics.
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It depends. In my opinion, if you're using it to mean "you look like a stereotypical gay guy," then it's not as bad as if you're using to mean "you look bad," which should be avoided at all costs. Though the way I see it, if you wanted to go the former route, you should just elaborate rather than try to sum it up in a single word.
It was a pretty forced example just to prompt discussion.
I appreciate the response and honesty
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As I said before, As long as people label themselves with a word, then someone is always going to use it offensively.
And another point, as long as the Right to Free speech exists, there's really no point in arguing it.
The right to free speech means that you can say whatever you want without fear of legal repercussions - being arrested, tortured, killed, etc. It exists to protect dissenters as well as people whose religion is not dominant or who do not have a religion. It does not exist to silence people who criticize your speech. You can claim Free Speech as much as you want but that doesn't make you immune to rebuttal or reprimand. Free Speech isn't The Right To Be A Total Douche Without Getting Called Out On It.
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When I was younger, and cruder I would use the word gay and ******. Mind you I grew up in the 80s and 90s. Those words left my vocabulary, it took being yelled at or talked at enough until it sunk in.
Early this year I caught myself using "gay" as a pejorative, and as soon as I said it I realized I hadn't said it in a long time like that, and I immediately felt embarrassed because I expect better of myself.
lesson of the day: Don't stick your foot in your mouth.
The right to free speech means that you can say whatever you want without fear of legal repercussions - being arrested, tortured, killed, etc. It exists to protect dissenters as well as people whose religion is not dominant or who do not have a religion. It does not exist to silence people who criticize your speech. You can claim Free Speech as much as you want but that doesn't make you immune to rebuttal or reprimand. Free Speech isn't The Right To Be A Total Douche Without Getting Called Out On It.
You've missed the point in what I'm saying. I'm not saying people are immune to rebuttal, you may refute anything you wish, but you will never have the right to legally make people stop using any word how they wish.
I agree, people can be total dicks with stuff they say *coughwestborobaptistchurchcough*, but it's just the way it is. People need to learn to transcend words and labels.
You've missed the point in what I'm saying. I'm not saying people are immune to rebuttal, you may refute anything you wish, but you will never have the right to legally make people stop using any word how they wish.
Not quite. You're in the States, there are limits to speech here.
Free Speech isn't The Right To Be A Total Douche Without Getting Called Out On It.
This is going in my sig.
As for this thread, everyone is welcome to do/say what they want. If someone says something that drops my opinion of them as a human being and a good person, I will let them know, so if they care they can avoid it in the future. This goes for many words. Basically, I don't expect people to know that what they're saying is offensive to me until I've told them. If they continue, then obviously they want to be offensive to me and are therefore probably jerks who's opinions I don't care about anyways.
1) I'm a woman.
2) Reclamation is a real thing. When I use slurs referring to groups I'm a part of, it doesn't perpetuate prejudice or discrimination against those groups. It's like how LGBT people have reclaimed the word "queer" (originally this was highly pejorative, now people unironically self-identify as queer), except with words that are currently slurs. Plus the fact that my use is always ironic and/or self-referential, rather than when people say "this thing is gay" or whatever.
Sorry. I assumed you were a guy because... you know... where we are.
Feel free to "reclaim" whatever words you want to - I'm sure as hell not going to tell you what it's "okay" for you to say...
That would be wrong.
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redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
zemanjaski: replace the word "gay" with "black" and see how that feels.
Maverick: The fact that Louis CK is doing a routine really changes things. He's saying a lot of these things more to get a laugh than to express an honest opinion.
Duelist: I'm not trying to ban these words, I'm just trying to discourage their use. There's a significant number of people who don't mean anything bad when they use these words, but they hurt people just the same.
Redthirst: Words hurt people all the time. Maybe they don't hurt you, but they hurt others. You wouldn't start yelling at somebody with really sensitive ears or tease a stranger for having a lisp, would you?
Failing to consider the consequences your actions have on others is the definition of inconsiderate. You should stop using words that have and continue to hurt people on a daily basis. Not because it's the law (it isn't nor should it be), but because it's what decent, civilized people do.
And by the way, you aren't blowing anybody away with your "stoic libertarian badass" persona. That's college freshman stuff.
@aurorasparrow ~ coming from australia, describing someone as looking "black" doesn't really mean anything to me, so I don't really understand. Is that meant to be insulting?
That aside, are you saying that the use of the word "gay" as an adjective is inappropriate? If yes, in what contexts (and I suppose, for whom).
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Stoic libertarian badass? Hasn't anyone ever told you that words hurt people, sparrow?
I'm just saying that I wouldn't tell you what words it's okay for you to use because I don't have the right to tell you what you can and can't say.
Let's assume we were in the same social circle, if you made it clear that you were offended by my language, then I'd make a real effort to curb it while you were around - just like I would with a child - or, more likely, just not hang out with you because thin-skinned people annoy me.
If you told me I was wrong and that I couldn't use that kind of language then I'd laugh at you.
Let's flip it around: assume I was offended by gay men. Is it your responsibility to act "straight" around me to keep from being offensive? If you don't, aren't you being inconsiderate?
Yes that's absurd. About as absurd as telling someone what they're allowed to say because it might offend someone else.
+EDIT+ Also, I'd like to clarify that using gay to mean bad is nothing like yelling at someone with sensitive ears or making fun of someone with a lisp. The former causes physical pain and is more similar to going around hitting people - which I don't think anyone would argue is okay... or legal. The latter is specific and personal, not general - the difference between saying "this place is gay, let's leave" to your friends and saying "ha ha! You're a ******!" to a homosexual stranger.
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
zemanjaski: Basically, using gay to mean anything other than sexual preference for people of the same gender is a bit iffy. Effeminate is a word I use a lot more often.
redthirst: If words can hurt you, you should understand why you shouldn't toss words like ****** around so carelessly. Obviously you CAN, just like you CAN do some pretty ****ed up things to your pets and children without getting in trouble. But you SHOULDN'T, and if your response is "**** you I'll do what I want" then it's time to admit to yourself that you're a jerk.
If your definition of thin-skinned people is "the sort of people who have a problem with referring to black people as ******s", then guess what: thin-skinned people are normal people. Maybe you don't like hanging out with them because you're a jerk and you don't like getting called out on it. Because getting called a jerk hurts your feelings. The same way others' feelings get hurt when you use words with a brutal history attached to them.
assume I was offended by gay men. Is it your responsibility to act "straight" around me to keep from being offensive? If you don't, aren't you being inconsiderate?
The OBVIOUS difference is that your choice of words is something that you can EASILY, EASILY control, whereas people DO NOT have a choice as to their sexual orientation.
Furthermore, there is no cultural history of heterosexuals being systematically tortured and murdered due to their sexual orientation.
using gay to mean bad is nothing like yelling at someone with sensitive ears or making fun of someone with a lisp.
Because physical pain exists and mental/emotional pain doesn't. And it's totally okay to use "lispy" as a pejorative.
Let's flip it around: assume I was offended by gay men. Is it your responsibility to act "straight" around me to keep from being offensive? If you don't, aren't you being inconsiderate?
The analogous example would be a gay person using heterophobic language and rhetoric, in which case you'd be well justified in being offended. It's not the act of simply being gay or straight that's the focus, here. It's the act of doing something that explicitly or implicitly disparages the others' sexual orientation.
zemanjaski: Basically, using gay to mean anything other than sexual preference for people of the same gender is a bit iffy. Effeminate is a word I use a lot more often.
Careful with that one, though, since it's pretty easy to slip into sexism with it.
Thanks for the clarification ~ the reason I am asking is because it does seem like a very fine line, and more out of interest than anything I want to know where you would draw said imaginary line.
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Okay, so people shouldn't be allowed to say things that might offend other people, right?
That means no slurs based on race or sexual orientation, obviously (like the word "breeder" that I noticed absolutely no one had a problem with even though it's meant to be just as derogatory as "******"). Also nothing that alludes to being less intelligent, socially awkward, or ugly. Straight-up name-calling is right out (because us jerks have feelings too). You can't have any words that sound close to a slur (like *****rdly) because we can't have people becoming accidentally offended.
No profanity or things that aren't profanity but some people still consider it rude (like crap).
You also want to get rid of words that are regularly used to mean other things, but could also possibly be used in an offensive way like cracker, snowflake, or colors like red, yellow, brown, etc.
No slang can be used to refer to certain body parts or sexual acts... unless, of course, that slang is less offensive than the actual word. Example: peepee and hoohoo.
No drug or alcohol references.
There we go! Isn't that better now that no one might say anything that anyone might potentially find the least bit offensive?
...or is it just really incredibly ****ing stupid instead?
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redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
You have the privilege to be able to do that because heterophobia isn't deeply ingrained into Western society. No one marginalizes straight people. There's no institutionalized discrimination against them. You've probably never had to feel genuine fear over people discovering you're straight.
And that's the difference between homophobic slurs and heterophobic ones, why "******" is on the censor but "breeder" isn't.
You have the privilege to be able to do that because heterophobia isn't deeply ingrained into Western society. No one marginalizes straight people. There's no institutionalized discrimination against them. You've probably never had to feel genuine fear over people discovering you're straight.
And that's the difference between homophobic slurs and heterophobic ones, why "******" is on the censor but "breeder" isn't.
I mean i do the same with *any* insult thrown my way.
It's really not like if whoever says it can step up to me and win, so why take it personally?
I have black friends, so it's ok if I say ****** right?
Please let the censor do its job.
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Duelist: I think it's patently obvious that person 2 is equating bad with gay. And in a culture where gay is used so often as an insult, particularly against those who are gay, it's not really fair to expect those affected to just hear it in a neutral way.
Funkenstein: You're more than welcome to call her out on her hypocrisy.
Mozer: how could it NOT have a negative affect? You are literally associating the adjective "gay" with the adjective "negative". The political observation is somewhat off-topic.
Redthirst: "It's okay if I use that word. I'm not a racist!"
See? It doesn't work that way.
NastySasquatch: We aren't talking about the people who are looking to be offended. We're talking about people who legitimately feel bad when the term is used, possibly because it reminds them that a large part of society dislikes and discriminates against them due to an attribute they didn't choose.
There all sorts of words that mean bad and do not also mean homosexual or disabled. Choose any of them.
Maverick: I rewatched the Louis CK video, and he starts off by saying he misses using "that word." In other words, he understands that it's not acceptable in modern polite society to use it.
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1) I'm a woman.
2) Reclamation is a real thing. When I use slurs referring to groups I'm a part of, it doesn't perpetuate prejudice or discrimination against those groups. It's like how LGBT people have reclaimed the word "queer" (originally this was highly pejorative, now people unironically self-identify as queer), except with words that are currently slurs. Plus the fact that my use is always ironic and/or self-referential, rather than when people say "this thing is gay" or whatever.
Going further, how appropriate/acceptable is it for a straight person to use the term "gay" as a descriptor ~ so I can say a place is a "gay bar" (I assume) BUT, if I am not sure, can I say "I am pretty sure that is a place for gays"? Try to understand that I am not meaning anything negative from the expression (but hey, it could be very offensive, so educate me). I am just trying to understand the psychology behind the distinctions.
For example, a friend asks me how how he looks, and I answer (hypothetically), "a little bit gay". Now, we both know I am not using it in the negative sense (that is, that looking gay = bad), but in the descriptive sense. Obviously this draws on our mutual expectation of what looking "gay" is. Assuming that our expectation of "gay" is not a ridiculous and likely offensive stereotype, how bad is this conduct?
I know it is wrong, I want to understand how wrong, as a method of putting this dicussion into context for myself.
Thanks in advaance.
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It depends. In my opinion, if you're using it to mean "you look like a stereotypical gay guy," then it's not as bad as if you're using to mean "you look bad," which should be avoided at all costs. Though the way I see it, if you wanted to go the former route, you should just elaborate rather than try to sum it up in a single word.
That said, Louis C.K. is not an authority on words, his opinions are just commonly cited on these topics.
Though I'll put it in a small font.
Please stop hijacking my reply box.
It was a pretty forced example just to prompt discussion.
I appreciate the response and honesty
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As I said before, As long as people label themselves with a word, then someone is always going to use it offensively.
And another point, as long as the Right to Free speech exists, there's really no point in arguing it.
The right to free speech means that you can say whatever you want without fear of legal repercussions - being arrested, tortured, killed, etc. It exists to protect dissenters as well as people whose religion is not dominant or who do not have a religion. It does not exist to silence people who criticize your speech. You can claim Free Speech as much as you want but that doesn't make you immune to rebuttal or reprimand. Free Speech isn't The Right To Be A Total Douche Without Getting Called Out On It.
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Early this year I caught myself using "gay" as a pejorative, and as soon as I said it I realized I hadn't said it in a long time like that, and I immediately felt embarrassed because I expect better of myself.
lesson of the day: Don't stick your foot in your mouth.
You've missed the point in what I'm saying. I'm not saying people are immune to rebuttal, you may refute anything you wish, but you will never have the right to legally make people stop using any word how they wish.
I agree, people can be total dicks with stuff they say *coughwestborobaptistchurchcough*, but it's just the way it is. People need to learn to transcend words and labels.
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This is going in my sig.
As for this thread, everyone is welcome to do/say what they want. If someone says something that drops my opinion of them as a human being and a good person, I will let them know, so if they care they can avoid it in the future. This goes for many words. Basically, I don't expect people to know that what they're saying is offensive to me until I've told them. If they continue, then obviously they want to be offensive to me and are therefore probably jerks who's opinions I don't care about anyways.
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Sorry. I assumed you were a guy because... you know... where we are.
Feel free to "reclaim" whatever words you want to - I'm sure as hell not going to tell you what it's "okay" for you to say...
That would be wrong.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
Maverick: The fact that Louis CK is doing a routine really changes things. He's saying a lot of these things more to get a laugh than to express an honest opinion.
Duelist: I'm not trying to ban these words, I'm just trying to discourage their use. There's a significant number of people who don't mean anything bad when they use these words, but they hurt people just the same.
Redthirst: Words hurt people all the time. Maybe they don't hurt you, but they hurt others. You wouldn't start yelling at somebody with really sensitive ears or tease a stranger for having a lisp, would you?
Failing to consider the consequences your actions have on others is the definition of inconsiderate. You should stop using words that have and continue to hurt people on a daily basis. Not because it's the law (it isn't nor should it be), but because it's what decent, civilized people do.
And by the way, you aren't blowing anybody away with your "stoic libertarian badass" persona. That's college freshman stuff.
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That aside, are you saying that the use of the word "gay" as an adjective is inappropriate? If yes, in what contexts (and I suppose, for whom).
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I'm just saying that I wouldn't tell you what words it's okay for you to use because I don't have the right to tell you what you can and can't say.
Let's assume we were in the same social circle, if you made it clear that you were offended by my language, then I'd make a real effort to curb it while you were around - just like I would with a child - or, more likely, just not hang out with you because thin-skinned people annoy me.
If you told me I was wrong and that I couldn't use that kind of language then I'd laugh at you.
Let's flip it around: assume I was offended by gay men. Is it your responsibility to act "straight" around me to keep from being offensive? If you don't, aren't you being inconsiderate?
Yes that's absurd. About as absurd as telling someone what they're allowed to say because it might offend someone else.
+EDIT+ Also, I'd like to clarify that using gay to mean bad is nothing like yelling at someone with sensitive ears or making fun of someone with a lisp. The former causes physical pain and is more similar to going around hitting people - which I don't think anyone would argue is okay... or legal. The latter is specific and personal, not general - the difference between saying "this place is gay, let's leave" to your friends and saying "ha ha! You're a ******!" to a homosexual stranger.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
redthirst: If words can hurt you, you should understand why you shouldn't toss words like ****** around so carelessly. Obviously you CAN, just like you CAN do some pretty ****ed up things to your pets and children without getting in trouble. But you SHOULDN'T, and if your response is "**** you I'll do what I want" then it's time to admit to yourself that you're a jerk.
If your definition of thin-skinned people is "the sort of people who have a problem with referring to black people as ******s", then guess what: thin-skinned people are normal people. Maybe you don't like hanging out with them because you're a jerk and you don't like getting called out on it. Because getting called a jerk hurts your feelings. The same way others' feelings get hurt when you use words with a brutal history attached to them.
The OBVIOUS difference is that your choice of words is something that you can EASILY, EASILY control, whereas people DO NOT have a choice as to their sexual orientation.
Furthermore, there is no cultural history of heterosexuals being systematically tortured and murdered due to their sexual orientation.
Because physical pain exists and mental/emotional pain doesn't. And it's totally okay to use "lispy" as a pejorative.
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The analogous example would be a gay person using heterophobic language and rhetoric, in which case you'd be well justified in being offended. It's not the act of simply being gay or straight that's the focus, here. It's the act of doing something that explicitly or implicitly disparages the others' sexual orientation.
Careful with that one, though, since it's pretty easy to slip into sexism with it.
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That means no slurs based on race or sexual orientation, obviously (like the word "breeder" that I noticed absolutely no one had a problem with even though it's meant to be just as derogatory as "******"). Also nothing that alludes to being less intelligent, socially awkward, or ugly. Straight-up name-calling is right out (because us jerks have feelings too). You can't have any words that sound close to a slur (like *****rdly) because we can't have people becoming accidentally offended.
No profanity or things that aren't profanity but some people still consider it rude (like crap).
You also want to get rid of words that are regularly used to mean other things, but could also possibly be used in an offensive way like cracker, snowflake, or colors like red, yellow, brown, etc.
No slang can be used to refer to certain body parts or sexual acts... unless, of course, that slang is less offensive than the actual word. Example: peepee and hoohoo.
No drug or alcohol references.
There we go! Isn't that better now that no one might say anything that anyone might potentially find the least bit offensive?
...or is it just really incredibly ****ing stupid instead?
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
I think i'd just laugh it off and not care?
You have the privilege to be able to do that because heterophobia isn't deeply ingrained into Western society. No one marginalizes straight people. There's no institutionalized discrimination against them. You've probably never had to feel genuine fear over people discovering you're straight.
And that's the difference between homophobic slurs and heterophobic ones, why "******" is on the censor but "breeder" isn't.
I mean i do the same with *any* insult thrown my way.
It's really not like if whoever says it can step up to me and win, so why take it personally?