Sorry dude, that's not the "tiniest" of minorities. If it was 99% then yeah, tiny. But it's not. And when i said "sucks" earlier I was using hyperbole; mediocre is my real opinion. In the sense that it was adequate, passable. Not terrible, not brilliant. Christopher Nolan still can't make a fist fight exciting or especially dynamic, which is bizarre when you consider how wonderfully he maneuvers vehicles through their environments during chases. The score was over bearing and the sound mixing was pretty shoddy.
I've never considered Nolan to be anything special at maneuvering bug hardware around the screen, or doing fight scenes. He's lightyears ahead of Tim burton, but that is essentially not saying anything.
In terms of maneuvering big hardware around the screen in an action sequence, nobody touches James "hiring you is like firing two good people" Cameron, who I hear is a real peach to work with. He really understands action. His themes are simplistic, but his heart and enthusiasm come through, even with the terrible dialog he sometimes writes. It's no accident that the two highest grossing films of all time, by WIDE margins are both his, Non-sequels, that had plenty of potential to be failures, on paper. But through sheer visual genius, he makes them a MUST SEE spectacle.
Spielberg is a close second, but it's like he doesn't understand what "cool" is or he doesn't really care. He doesn't love giant helicopter gunships or massive vehicles Being inundated by a hitomi missile circus so he will not tend to indulge that desire very much. He's a great film maker who does understand every cinematic trick in the book (watch Saving Private Ryan, the storming of Normandy beach, and the urban panzer assault sequence)... But he doesnt LOVE action and violence like Cameron does.
There is a huge gap after that.
2nd tier guys are Wachowski brothers, Peter Berg (regardless of his movies often being crap from the dramatic side), who can put an impressive action sequence on the screen. I think he enjoys it, though he and Michael Bay (whom i loathe for multiple reasons) both tend to lose the point of the action as well. Bay is so ADHD, he can't seem to recognize that action in and of itself needs it's own plot to be engaging for an audience.
Nolan is far better at several aspects of telling a thought provoking story than many of those guys... But his hardware action sequences are far from miraculous and his fight scenes fall into the range of serviceable ( the winter assault near the end of Inception was yawn inducing ). Compare the unimaginative fight scene (how its filmed) between Batman and Bane at the end of the movie to, let's say, terminator 2 between T1000 and Arnold... or the compact closed quarters fight between Arnold and muscle terrorist in the bathroom in True lies.
Nolan's car chases aren't the worst... Not the best either. The cool hardware of the Bat flying through the city... It was good, not great and I don't know if we attribute it to Nolan's direction. Could very well have been delegated.
Still doesn't detract from the film. All 3 Nolan Batman movies were enjoyable, with the last two being very good, B movies with A production values. TDK had greatness in Heath Ledger who elevates every scene he's in. You Can't take your eyes off him. I can't even watch the rest of the film. I just FF to him pretty much. TDKR is better overall as a film, it's a nice finish to The trilogy. I just so wish Bane had been a more engaging character. If only they had found a way to redo the mask so Hardy's acting performance could come through better.
My issue results in how the symbolism is handled awkwardly with weird emphasis points, and completely off-putting hammered in notes saying "THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART". It's like Nolan was trying to do Tarsem Singh (whatever your personal feelings on Singh is).
LOL! I actually like The Fall.
Here's some more of my rants. It seems relevant to the people who keep criticizing certain aspects of the film:
This is not a film about Batman vs. Bane, and I fear a lot of people are failing to realize that.
The Dark Knight Rises, when viewed through the conflict narrative, is a film about man vs. himself. Period. Bane, Catwoman, Miranda Tate, even allies John Blake, Alfred, and Fox are all in the film as catalysts for Bruce Wayne's true transformation. This film is about Wayne moving on from his childhood trauma. Bane is treated with very little characterization on purpose. The antagonists in this film are little more than 1-dimensional by design. The true journey is that of Wayne struggling through the darkness of his own self-destruction and self-pity and climbing out of the pit of despair to be reborn into the sun (yes, this is seen literally on the screen). There is a reason the first time Bruce shows up on screen he is shown in the shadows and distorted in the reflection of his meal's plate cover; because Bruce has allowed the darkness in his spirit to envelope him. There's also a reason he's seen smiling in the sun at the end of the film.
TDKR is the story of Bruce breaking free of the prison of his own demons; literally and figuratively.
@actionandy Also, for the record, 7% is a tiny amount of people.
Here's some more of my rants. It seems relevant to the people who keep criticizing certain aspects of the film:
This is not a film about Batman vs. Bane, and I fear a lot of people are failing to realize that.
The Dark Knight Rises, when viewed through the conflict narrative, is a film about man vs. himself. Period. Bane, Catwoman, Miranda Tate, even allies John Blake, Alfred, and Fox are all in the film as catalysts for Bruce Wayne's true transformation. This film is about Wayne moving on from his childhood trauma. Bane is treated with very little characterization on purpose. The antagonists in this film are little more than 1-dimensional by design. The true journey is that of Wayne struggling through the darkness of his own self-destruction and self-pity and climbing out of the pit of despair to be reborn into the sun (yes, this is seen literally on the screen). There is a reason the first time Bruce shows up on screen he is shown in the shadows and distorted in the reflection of his meal's plate cover; because Bruce has allowed the darkness in his spirit to envelope him. There's also a reason he's seen smiling in the sun at the end of the film.
TDKR is the story of Bruce breaking free of the prison of his own demons; literally and figuratively.
@actionandy Also, for the record, 7% is a tiny amount of people.
Whats 7% of $160M/avg ticket price? About a million people? Doesn't sound tiny to me.
There's nothing wrong with not liking this movie. There was plenty to not like, and it was really pretty long.
I hate that people have to make it into "a thing" if you don't like a movie. It didn't work for a lot of People. Lord knows lots of people love LOTR, but it bored my wife to the edge of tears. She just didn't care about what was going on in Middle Earth and the human moments of real drama were too far separated by head chopping and technobabble (fantasy babble?) speeches.
I disagree a lot on a lot of things about this movie with Highroller, for example, but I don't think his dislike for the movie somehow reflects on his general taste or intelligence.
I'm not counting audience ratings, especially not for this movie, because of fanboys. When the audience is sending death threats to critics who posted less than favorable reviews, I'm not trusting them to vote with anything close to rationality. People were giving this movie a 10/10 based on the trailer. Yes I realize this was not every Dark Knight fan, and yeah there are legit reasons to like the movie and give it a favorable review. But you can trust the critics' rating way more than the audience's. Sorry dude.
14% of critics didn't give it a fresh rating; that means it's at least part of the discussion that this film isn't going to knock everyone's dick in the dirt, possibly because of actual flaws. Again, 14 percent or even 7 percent is not THAT small that my opinion can get one-shotted by "dude, you're in such a small minority here. You're just wrong." If 14 percent of people were 12 feet tall you wouldn't say we had a "minute, tiny" minority of giants on our hands. You'd be saying look at all these crazy ass giants.
I liked it, it was ok. I really feel cat woman's place in the movie was pointless, or at least to call her cat woman. She seemed more like a thief, who decided to sort of look like a cat. The entire character could have been scrapped but you have to pander to the uncontrollable horny teenage crowd. Pointless character is pointless character.
I knew exactly how it was going to end the moment alfred starting with the bit about what he hoped would happen in that 8years... i saw the shawshank redemption ending coming a mile a way.
With that said, bane was a clever enemy, and I kinda wish, even though not possible now, that the joker would have stopped by just to F with both sides because it was still to organized on both ends hehe.
Here's some more of my rants. It seems relevant to the people who keep criticizing certain aspects of the film:
This is not a film about Batman vs. Bane, and I fear a lot of people are failing to realize that.
The Dark Knight Rises, when viewed through the conflict narrative, is a film about man vs. himself. Period. Bane, Catwoman, Miranda Tate, even allies John Blake, Alfred, and Fox are all in the film as catalysts for Bruce Wayne's true transformation. This film is about Wayne moving on from his childhood trauma. Bane is treated with very little characterization on purpose. The antagonists in this film are little more than 1-dimensional by design. The true journey is that of Wayne struggling through the darkness of his own self-destruction and self-pity and climbing out of the pit of despair to be reborn into the sun (yes, this is seen literally on the screen). There is a reason the first time Bruce shows up on screen he is shown in the shadows and distorted in the reflection of his meal's plate cover; because Bruce has allowed the darkness in his spirit to envelope him.
TDKR is the story of Bruce breaking free of the prison of his own demons; literally and figuratively.
I meant it for better or worse (this case worse). I love the fall, and I liked Immortals... and I liked The Cell (guilty pleasure).
My big issue with the narrative is it's man vs. self that lingers on non man vs self storylines while breezing through the man vs. self ala Rocky 3
I liked it, it was ok. I really feel cat woman's place in the movie was pointless, or at least to call her cat woman. She seemed more like a thief, who decided to sort of look like a cat. The entire character could have been scrapped but you have to pander to the uncontrollable horny teenage crowd. Pointless character is pointless character.
I knew exactly how it was going to end the moment alfred starting with the bit about what he hoped would happen in that 8years... i saw the shawshank redemption ending coming a mile a way.
With that said, bane was a clever enemy, and I kinda wish, even though not possible now, that the joker would have stopped by just to F with both sides because it was still to organized on both ends hehe.
ya calling her "catwoman" is pointless but she is anything but a pointless character. she was huge to the plot, and I won't say anymore because I don't want to spoil it. I think she appeals to ANY male crowd, not just teenagers. Her sex appeal is just a by-product, it certainly is not the reason the character exists.
Ya, the ending was fairly obvious. it was kind of like shawshank, but it felt more like inception when we finally see bruce's face, like when we finally see the face of Leo's kids in inception. but ya, the allusion to it earlier was too obvious and it was really just a steroid into a weak alfred sub story.
bane reading gordon's memo about harvey dent? i dunno, didn't have the impact it would have coming from someone else.
the enormous amounts of exposition is what really slowed this movie down for me. we don't need to recap what happened 8 years ago, just move the story along PLEASE. that was the best part about TDK, its expert timing and story placement.
this film did not have that, until the second act, then it disappeared with the ending.
i didn't hate it. it wasn't TDK but I didn't really expect it to be. when someone gives the acting role of their generation, it is very hard to top.
I don't know about anyone else, but I had the impression that the whole thing was faked somehow, so that he could simply have an excuse to be in the hospital. It doesn't explain the need for the brace afterwards, of course, but the thought did occur to me. My point being, he could have already known what was wrong with him and the visit was just a cover up for seeing Gordon. Otherwise, why specifically go to the one Gordon was at?
This is not a film about Batman vs. Bane, and I fear a lot of people are failing to realize that.
The Dark Knight Rises, when viewed through the conflict narrative, is a film about man vs. himself. Period. Bane, Catwoman, Miranda Tate, even allies John Blake, Alfred, and Fox are all in the film as catalysts for Bruce Wayne's true transformation. This film is about Wayne moving on from his childhood trauma. Bane is treated with very little characterization on purpose. The antagonists in this film are little more than 1-dimensional by design. The true journey is that of Wayne struggling through the darkness of his own self-destruction and self-pity and climbing out of the pit of despair to be reborn into the sun (yes, this is seen literally on the screen). There is a reason the first time Bruce shows up on screen he is shown in the shadows and distorted in the reflection of his meal's plate cover; because Bruce has allowed the darkness in his spirit to envelope him. There's also a reason he's seen smiling in the sun at the end of the film.
TDKR is the story of Bruce breaking free of the prison of his own demons; literally and figuratively.
Aha, see, this is what I wanted from the movie.
This is exactly what Knightfall is about. Bane beats Batman, Azrael-Batman beats Bane, and ultimately Bruce Wayne defeats Jean-Paul Valley because, as I mentioned before, he built up himself.
Bane (and Jean-Paul Valley) are particular reflections of Bruce Wayne, much like Ra's Al Ghul and the Joker were in the previous movies (reflections in the sense of a funhouse mirror - distorting and exaggerating certain features). This is one of Nolan's strengths. This is why Bane means so much, and defeating him was important. And thinking about it now, perhaps this is why I was disappointed by the Talia reveal; I saw no such meaning in her character.
I do not believe making bland antagonists serves the right goal. Reducing quality may be the easy path, but never the right one. Shoddy design of characters, plots, or whatever, does not somehow enable me to focus on the underlying themes, it distracts me from them. Great design is what makes TDK Batman versus the Joker instead of Batman versus some weirdo dressed like a clown.
ya calling her "catwoman" is pointless but she is anything but a pointless character. she was huge to the plot, and I won't say anymore because I don't want to spoil it. I think she appeals to ANY male crowd, not just teenagers. Her sex appeal is just a by-product, it certainly is not the reason the character exists.
The plot could have worked fine without her. It would have needed some changes, but it wouldn't have been difficult. And I hugely doubt she would have been included in the move, or dreamed up in the first place, if not for the pandering level of sex appeal.
Although frankly I would have found her way more interesting if she was less attractive. Imagine Melissa McCarthy as Catwoman. That would be AWESOME.
The plot could have worked fine without her. It would have needed some changes, but it wouldn't have been difficult. And I hugely doubt she would have been included in the move, or dreamed up in the first place, if not for the pandering level of sex appeal.
Although frankly I would have found her way more interesting if she was less attractive. Imagine Melissa McCarthy as Catwoman. That would be AWESOME.
??
there are specific points that need her. i.e. when she takes batman to bane and sets him up. you could not do that without her. and that isn't the only instance.
ya any movie could do without any character obviously, it's not as simple as "cut them out- make a few changes."
and no, a less attractive woman could not get away with the scheming that anne hathaway could. this woman has the spirit and vivaciousness of past femme fatales, to dull her appearance would be a disservice.
powerful men won't do anything for a 6. melissa mccarthy is like a 2. they need a 10, and a fiery 10 at that. she could have anything she wants, thats the point. what she wants is a clean slate, a way out essentially.
if her character didn't resonate well with you, that's fine. in my opinion, she was the most flavorful character of the movie.
I liked it, it was ok. I really feel cat woman's place in the movie was pointless, or at least to call her cat woman. She seemed more like a thief, who decided to sort of look like a cat. The entire character could have been scrapped but you have to pander to the uncontrollable horny teenage crowd. Pointless character is pointless character.
Wow... You totally missed the point of the entire movie, didn't you?
The fact that Bruce Wayne goes from mourning Rachel — not to mention goes from mourning his parents his entire life — to then allowing himself to finally leave Gotham and the death of his parents behind is the whole point. Catwoman is vital to that. In fact, she's one of the few things about this movie that IS entirely necessary to that.
Now, that sounds like genuine criticism of the film and not nit-picking.
Really? So he says that the movie spends too much time not on Batman's character journey, and you're all smiles. I've been saying the same thing for pages, and nope, illegitimate.
C'mon dimir. We already know you're intelligent, you don't need to be combative to try to prove it.
The antagonists in this film are little more than 1-dimensional by design.
Then that's a really poor design.
Your argument seems predicated on the idea that somehow a multi-dimensional villain would distract us from the character's inner journey. That's never been the case in the entire history of storytelling. Star Wars does not get worse when Darth Vader reveals he's Luke's father. Casablanca does not get worse when Captain Louis Renault turns out to not be just another Nazi pawn.
All of this is applicable to the first two Batman films. In the first two Batman films, the major villains are all foils for Batman. Batman Begins had Carmine Falcone and Ra's al-Ghul. Falcone was significant for two reasons: to illustrate the other side, and to demonstrate what Batman would have become. Remember, Falcone hires a guy to shoot Joe Chill, which is what Batman would have done. And of course, Ra's al-Ghul is part of the ongoing dialogue about the nature of justice, which stretches to The Dark Knight as well. Ra's's view of absolute justice is contrasted to that of Batman's.
This idea of a dialogue with regards to justice is brought into The Dark Knight. Batman, Gordon, Dent, and (BRILLIANTLY) the Joker are all part of a dialogue as to what justice is and how to achieve it. Batman is incorruptible but acts outside of the law. Gordon plays the police commissioner's role but makes moral compromises in order to fight the greater evil. Dent tries to be the white knight but loses his faith in justice and turns to darker means. The Joker believes that anything other than anarchy is madness. This creates a unifying theme amongst the four separate-but-constantly-interweaving storylines.
Further, what you're also ignoring is that, in fact, The Dark Knight Returns tried to do exactly this. The entire movie, Bane is hyped up to be this child born in hell on Earth, this man born in darkness who is therefore much more powerful than Batman who was born in privilege. Bane is monstrous, has all sorts of chthonic imagery all around him, the fact that Batman fights him underground is no accident. Bane isn't really characterized beyond this, so the whole movie is banking on this idea of polar opposites, Batman born in opulence, Bane born in hell.
The thing is, this collapses for three reasons:
1. Batman Begins. The idea that Batman always had a comfortable life and never experienced want doesn't work when Batman endured a Chinese prison and a grueling mountain climb long before he was put through the crucible of the League of Shadows' initiation. It's hard for us to accept when Bane says he's awesome because he's gone through hell and Batman hasn't when one of the first things anyone says to Batman, in a prison no less, is "You are in Hell, rich man, and I am the devil."
2. Bane has no complexity. Ra's al-Ghul, Harvey Dent, and The Joker were all foils to Batman. As I said before, all of these characters wanted justice against a corrupt city, like Batman, but their methodologies and intentions were different and far more terrifying, which made the conflict between them much more interesting. It wasn't a fight between two guys punching each other, the fight meant more, because it was a war of philosophical ideals.
Bane doesn't have this, which is unfortunate because he could have. Like I said before, it would have been far more interesting if Bane called for Gotham's poor and disenfranchised to rise up and they did, and to actually have that be the center of his plan. That would have been interesting. Instead, the movie plays it as completely facetious, with Bane lying about that, his real goal being to blow up the city.
So basically, Bane's goal is just a simple-minded revenge plot. He's going through the exact same motions that Ra's al-Ghul did, leave Batman broken, torment him with loss of hope, threaten to destroy the city, but Bane doesn't offer anything we haven't seen already because there's nothing really complex about him.
Basically, the result is a dumbed down work that is nowhere close to as intelligent as the other Batman movies that preceded it.
3. All of that gets subverted anyway. It's not that Bane was intentionally one-dimensional, it's that he had some characterization, it was never expanded on, and what characterization he had was subverted in a very poorly thought out character reveal.
To your credit, you understand what a protagonist is and that things matter based on their relevance to the protagonist, but you've missed a crucial factor in all of this: each of those characters is the protagonist of their own respective plot line, and so if you're going to involve those characters in prominent subplots, you need to make them three-dimensional characters AND make them relevant to the main character's story. Otherwise they just drag the movie down, which is what we experienced.
I felt like banes voice reminded me of someone doing an impression of someone doing an impression of sean connery. Maybe that's just me. Also it was kind of weird with the sound mixing how his voice seemed to come from everywhere rather than from his mouth/speaker thing in his mask but maybe that was intentional.
there are specific points that need her. i.e. when she takes batman to bane and sets him up. you could not do that without her. and that isn't the only instance.
ya any movie could do without any character obviously, it's not as simple as "cut them out- make a few changes."
and no, a less attractive woman could not get away with the scheming that anne hathaway could. this woman has the spirit and vivaciousness of past femme fatales, to dull her appearance would be a disservice.
powerful men won't do anything for a 6. melissa mccarthy is like a 2. they need a 10, and a fiery 10 at that. she could have anything she wants, thats the point. what she wants is a clean slate, a way out essentially.
if her character didn't resonate well with you, that's fine. in my opinion, she was the most flavorful character of the movie.
So only attractive women can be crafty? Batman wants her to lead him to Bane. If she knows where he is, I don't see why it matters how attractive she is. Similarly, the baddies don't likely care who brings them B-man's fingerprints. So it doesn't seem that important for very many plot points. C'mon, you know Melissa may not look like much, but she'd try her ASS off.
Also, wanting a second chance made no sense at all with her other actions.
So only attractive women can be crafty? Batman wants her to lead him to Bane. If she knows where he is, I don't see why it matters how attractive she is. Similarly, the baddies don't likely care who brings them B-man's fingerprints. So it doesn't seem that important for very many plot points. C'mon, you know Melissa may not look like much, but she'd try her ASS off.
Also, wanting a second chance made no sense at all with her other actions.
if you read my post and it makes you beg the question "so only attractive women can be crafty," then you really didn't understand my post at all.
sigh.
let me try again: her sex appeal advances her power and deception over influential and powerful men. no, you don't need to be attractive to be crafty, but it sure as hell doesn't hurt. you DO need to be attractive if you're going to mingle with the elite, get what you want, and get into the car(s) of political figures (which she did).
hell why not just let alfred lead him to bane, right? it's not just someone physically leading him to Bane, as you are suggesting. it is the set up of the betrayal, it is the redemption after when she saves him. this seems like a no brainer concept.
wanting a second chance was the root of all her actions. let's clarify that. now, why she wanted the second chance wasn't really fleshed out, i'll give you that, but every move she made was to acquire the "x" to start fresh.
if mccarthy played catwoman, bob kane would literally **** himself in the grave.
if you read my post and it makes you beg the question "so only attractive women can be crafty," then you really didn't understand my post at all.
sigh.
let me try again: her sex appeal advances her power and deception over influential and powerful men. no, you don't need to be attractive to be crafty, but it sure as hell doesn't hurt. you DO need to be attractive if you're going to mingle with the elite, get what you want, and get into the car(s) of political figures (which she did).
hell why not just let alfred lead him to bane, right? it's not just someone physically leading him to Bane, as you are suggesting. it is the set up of the betrayal, it is the redemption after when she saves him. this seems like a no brainer concept.
wanting a second chance was the root of all her actions. let's clarify that. now, why she wanted the second chance wasn't really fleshed out, i'll give you that, but every move she made was to acquire the "x" to start fresh.
if mccarthy played catwoman, bob kane would literally **** himself in the grave.
That is extremely unlikely, and I find your degree of certainty deeply unsettling.
My issue isn't with Catwoman as played by Hathaway or written by Nolan in particular, but that the character itself is a pathetic juvenile fantasy with the depth of a puddle to begin with.
-getting into the car with the politician wasn't that important to the plot.
-the queen is an ugly bint and she still mingles with the elite.
-alfred wouldn't know where bane was.
-bane could have just lured him in on his own - B-man was looking for bane, after all.
-my point is that she kept stealing things even when she was looking for her escape from theft - POINTLESSLY stealing EASILY TRACEABLE things, like the necklace and the car. she's a klepto. She doesn't want to quit.
How many people keep a GPS system in their mother's pearl necklace? Seriously now, how many?
necklace was more pointless. car was more traceable. My point is, she's not stealing because she needs to, or even needs to in order to stop stealing. She keeps stealing stuff that's totally unnecessary and has a high chance of getting her caught. She clearly just likes the thrill of it, and the odds of her actually quitting are pretty much nil.
In terms of maneuvering big hardware around the screen in an action sequence, nobody touches James "hiring you is like firing two good people" Cameron, who I hear is a real peach to work with. He really understands action. His themes are simplistic, but his heart and enthusiasm come through, even with the terrible dialog he sometimes writes. It's no accident that the two highest grossing films of all time, by WIDE margins are both his, Non-sequels, that had plenty of potential to be failures, on paper. But through sheer visual genius, he makes them a MUST SEE spectacle.
Spielberg is a close second, but it's like he doesn't understand what "cool" is or he doesn't really care. He doesn't love giant helicopter gunships or massive vehicles Being inundated by a hitomi missile circus so he will not tend to indulge that desire very much. He's a great film maker who does understand every cinematic trick in the book (watch Saving Private Ryan, the storming of Normandy beach, and the urban panzer assault sequence)... But he doesnt LOVE action and violence like Cameron does.
There is a huge gap after that.
2nd tier guys are Wachowski brothers, Peter Berg (regardless of his movies often being crap from the dramatic side), who can put an impressive action sequence on the screen. I think he enjoys it, though he and Michael Bay (whom i loathe for multiple reasons) both tend to lose the point of the action as well. Bay is so ADHD, he can't seem to recognize that action in and of itself needs it's own plot to be engaging for an audience.
Nolan is far better at several aspects of telling a thought provoking story than many of those guys... But his hardware action sequences are far from miraculous and his fight scenes fall into the range of serviceable ( the winter assault near the end of Inception was yawn inducing ). Compare the unimaginative fight scene (how its filmed) between Batman and Bane at the end of the movie to, let's say, terminator 2 between T1000 and Arnold... or the compact closed quarters fight between Arnold and muscle terrorist in the bathroom in True lies.
Nolan's car chases aren't the worst... Not the best either. The cool hardware of the Bat flying through the city... It was good, not great and I don't know if we attribute it to Nolan's direction. Could very well have been delegated.
Still doesn't detract from the film. All 3 Nolan Batman movies were enjoyable, with the last two being very good, B movies with A production values. TDK had greatness in Heath Ledger who elevates every scene he's in. You Can't take your eyes off him. I can't even watch the rest of the film. I just FF to him pretty much. TDKR is better overall as a film, it's a nice finish to The trilogy. I just so wish Bane had been a more engaging character. If only they had found a way to redo the mask so Hardy's acting performance could come through better.
LOL! I actually like The Fall.
Here's some more of my rants. It seems relevant to the people who keep criticizing certain aspects of the film:
The Dark Knight Rises, when viewed through the conflict narrative, is a film about man vs. himself. Period. Bane, Catwoman, Miranda Tate, even allies John Blake, Alfred, and Fox are all in the film as catalysts for Bruce Wayne's true transformation. This film is about Wayne moving on from his childhood trauma. Bane is treated with very little characterization on purpose. The antagonists in this film are little more than 1-dimensional by design. The true journey is that of Wayne struggling through the darkness of his own self-destruction and self-pity and climbing out of the pit of despair to be reborn into the sun (yes, this is seen literally on the screen). There is a reason the first time Bruce shows up on screen he is shown in the shadows and distorted in the reflection of his meal's plate cover; because Bruce has allowed the darkness in his spirit to envelope him. There's also a reason he's seen smiling in the sun at the end of the film.
TDKR is the story of Bruce breaking free of the prison of his own demons; literally and figuratively.
@actionandy Also, for the record, 7% is a tiny amount of people.
Whats 7% of $160M/avg ticket price? About a million people? Doesn't sound tiny to me.
There's nothing wrong with not liking this movie. There was plenty to not like, and it was really pretty long.
I hate that people have to make it into "a thing" if you don't like a movie. It didn't work for a lot of People. Lord knows lots of people love LOTR, but it bored my wife to the edge of tears. She just didn't care about what was going on in Middle Earth and the human moments of real drama were too far separated by head chopping and technobabble (fantasy babble?) speeches.
I disagree a lot on a lot of things about this movie with Highroller, for example, but I don't think his dislike for the movie somehow reflects on his general taste or intelligence.
14% of critics didn't give it a fresh rating; that means it's at least part of the discussion that this film isn't going to knock everyone's dick in the dirt, possibly because of actual flaws. Again, 14 percent or even 7 percent is not THAT small that my opinion can get one-shotted by "dude, you're in such a small minority here. You're just wrong." If 14 percent of people were 12 feet tall you wouldn't say we had a "minute, tiny" minority of giants on our hands. You'd be saying look at all these crazy ass giants.
I knew exactly how it was going to end the moment alfred starting with the bit about what he hoped would happen in that 8years... i saw the shawshank redemption ending coming a mile a way.
With that said, bane was a clever enemy, and I kinda wish, even though not possible now, that the joker would have stopped by just to F with both sides because it was still to organized on both ends hehe.
Now, that sounds like genuine criticism of the film and not nit-picking.
ya calling her "catwoman" is pointless but she is anything but a pointless character. she was huge to the plot, and I won't say anymore because I don't want to spoil it. I think she appeals to ANY male crowd, not just teenagers. Her sex appeal is just a by-product, it certainly is not the reason the character exists.
Ya, the ending was fairly obvious. it was kind of like shawshank, but it felt more like inception when we finally see bruce's face, like when we finally see the face of Leo's kids in inception. but ya, the allusion to it earlier was too obvious and it was really just a steroid into a weak alfred sub story.
bane reading gordon's memo about harvey dent? i dunno, didn't have the impact it would have coming from someone else.
the enormous amounts of exposition is what really slowed this movie down for me. we don't need to recap what happened 8 years ago, just move the story along PLEASE. that was the best part about TDK, its expert timing and story placement.
this film did not have that, until the second act, then it disappeared with the ending.
i didn't hate it. it wasn't TDK but I didn't really expect it to be. when someone gives the acting role of their generation, it is very hard to top.
I don't know about anyone else, but I had the impression that the whole thing was faked somehow, so that he could simply have an excuse to be in the hospital. It doesn't explain the need for the brace afterwards, of course, but the thought did occur to me. My point being, he could have already known what was wrong with him and the visit was just a cover up for seeing Gordon. Otherwise, why specifically go to the one Gordon was at?
Past Ruminations
Links are broken, will fix in near future.
- Kaladesh
- Zendikar
- Rise of the Eldrazi
- Alara Reborn
- Innistrad <- Personal Favorite
- Dark Ascension
- Avacyn Restored
- Theros
- Return to Ravnica
- Tarkir
Aha, see, this is what I wanted from the movie.
Bane (and Jean-Paul Valley) are particular reflections of Bruce Wayne, much like Ra's Al Ghul and the Joker were in the previous movies (reflections in the sense of a funhouse mirror - distorting and exaggerating certain features). This is one of Nolan's strengths. This is why Bane means so much, and defeating him was important. And thinking about it now, perhaps this is why I was disappointed by the Talia reveal; I saw no such meaning in her character.
I do not believe making bland antagonists serves the right goal. Reducing quality may be the easy path, but never the right one. Shoddy design of characters, plots, or whatever, does not somehow enable me to focus on the underlying themes, it distracts me from them. Great design is what makes TDK Batman versus the Joker instead of Batman versus some weirdo dressed like a clown.
The plot could have worked fine without her. It would have needed some changes, but it wouldn't have been difficult. And I hugely doubt she would have been included in the move, or dreamed up in the first place, if not for the pandering level of sex appeal.
Although frankly I would have found her way more interesting if she was less attractive. Imagine Melissa McCarthy as Catwoman. That would be AWESOME.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
??
there are specific points that need her. i.e. when she takes batman to bane and sets him up. you could not do that without her. and that isn't the only instance.
ya any movie could do without any character obviously, it's not as simple as "cut them out- make a few changes."
and no, a less attractive woman could not get away with the scheming that anne hathaway could. this woman has the spirit and vivaciousness of past femme fatales, to dull her appearance would be a disservice.
powerful men won't do anything for a 6. melissa mccarthy is like a 2. they need a 10, and a fiery 10 at that. she could have anything she wants, thats the point. what she wants is a clean slate, a way out essentially.
if her character didn't resonate well with you, that's fine. in my opinion, she was the most flavorful character of the movie.
Wow... You totally missed the point of the entire movie, didn't you?
The fact that Bruce Wayne goes from mourning Rachel — not to mention goes from mourning his parents his entire life — to then allowing himself to finally leave Gotham and the death of his parents behind is the whole point. Catwoman is vital to that. In fact, she's one of the few things about this movie that IS entirely necessary to that.
Really? So he says that the movie spends too much time not on Batman's character journey, and you're all smiles. I've been saying the same thing for pages, and nope, illegitimate.
C'mon dimir. We already know you're intelligent, you don't need to be combative to try to prove it.
Then that's a really poor design.
Your argument seems predicated on the idea that somehow a multi-dimensional villain would distract us from the character's inner journey. That's never been the case in the entire history of storytelling. Star Wars does not get worse when Darth Vader reveals he's Luke's father. Casablanca does not get worse when Captain Louis Renault turns out to not be just another Nazi pawn.
All of this is applicable to the first two Batman films. In the first two Batman films, the major villains are all foils for Batman. Batman Begins had Carmine Falcone and Ra's al-Ghul. Falcone was significant for two reasons: to illustrate the other side, and to demonstrate what Batman would have become. Remember, Falcone hires a guy to shoot Joe Chill, which is what Batman would have done. And of course, Ra's al-Ghul is part of the ongoing dialogue about the nature of justice, which stretches to The Dark Knight as well. Ra's's view of absolute justice is contrasted to that of Batman's.
This idea of a dialogue with regards to justice is brought into The Dark Knight. Batman, Gordon, Dent, and (BRILLIANTLY) the Joker are all part of a dialogue as to what justice is and how to achieve it. Batman is incorruptible but acts outside of the law. Gordon plays the police commissioner's role but makes moral compromises in order to fight the greater evil. Dent tries to be the white knight but loses his faith in justice and turns to darker means. The Joker believes that anything other than anarchy is madness. This creates a unifying theme amongst the four separate-but-constantly-interweaving storylines.
Further, what you're also ignoring is that, in fact, The Dark Knight Returns tried to do exactly this. The entire movie, Bane is hyped up to be this child born in hell on Earth, this man born in darkness who is therefore much more powerful than Batman who was born in privilege. Bane is monstrous, has all sorts of chthonic imagery all around him, the fact that Batman fights him underground is no accident. Bane isn't really characterized beyond this, so the whole movie is banking on this idea of polar opposites, Batman born in opulence, Bane born in hell.
The thing is, this collapses for three reasons:
1. Batman Begins. The idea that Batman always had a comfortable life and never experienced want doesn't work when Batman endured a Chinese prison and a grueling mountain climb long before he was put through the crucible of the League of Shadows' initiation. It's hard for us to accept when Bane says he's awesome because he's gone through hell and Batman hasn't when one of the first things anyone says to Batman, in a prison no less, is "You are in Hell, rich man, and I am the devil."
2. Bane has no complexity. Ra's al-Ghul, Harvey Dent, and The Joker were all foils to Batman. As I said before, all of these characters wanted justice against a corrupt city, like Batman, but their methodologies and intentions were different and far more terrifying, which made the conflict between them much more interesting. It wasn't a fight between two guys punching each other, the fight meant more, because it was a war of philosophical ideals.
Bane doesn't have this, which is unfortunate because he could have. Like I said before, it would have been far more interesting if Bane called for Gotham's poor and disenfranchised to rise up and they did, and to actually have that be the center of his plan. That would have been interesting. Instead, the movie plays it as completely facetious, with Bane lying about that, his real goal being to blow up the city.
So basically, Bane's goal is just a simple-minded revenge plot. He's going through the exact same motions that Ra's al-Ghul did, leave Batman broken, torment him with loss of hope, threaten to destroy the city, but Bane doesn't offer anything we haven't seen already because there's nothing really complex about him.
Basically, the result is a dumbed down work that is nowhere close to as intelligent as the other Batman movies that preceded it.
To your credit, you understand what a protagonist is and that things matter based on their relevance to the protagonist, but you've missed a crucial factor in all of this: each of those characters is the protagonist of their own respective plot line, and so if you're going to involve those characters in prominent subplots, you need to make them three-dimensional characters AND make them relevant to the main character's story. Otherwise they just drag the movie down, which is what we experienced.
So only attractive women can be crafty? Batman wants her to lead him to Bane. If she knows where he is, I don't see why it matters how attractive she is. Similarly, the baddies don't likely care who brings them B-man's fingerprints. So it doesn't seem that important for very many plot points. C'mon, you know Melissa may not look like much, but she'd try her ASS off.
Also, wanting a second chance made no sense at all with her other actions.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
if you read my post and it makes you beg the question "so only attractive women can be crafty," then you really didn't understand my post at all.
sigh.
let me try again: her sex appeal advances her power and deception over influential and powerful men. no, you don't need to be attractive to be crafty, but it sure as hell doesn't hurt. you DO need to be attractive if you're going to mingle with the elite, get what you want, and get into the car(s) of political figures (which she did).
hell why not just let alfred lead him to bane, right? it's not just someone physically leading him to Bane, as you are suggesting. it is the set up of the betrayal, it is the redemption after when she saves him. this seems like a no brainer concept.
wanting a second chance was the root of all her actions. let's clarify that. now, why she wanted the second chance wasn't really fleshed out, i'll give you that, but every move she made was to acquire the "x" to start fresh.
if mccarthy played catwoman, bob kane would literally **** himself in the grave.
That is extremely unlikely, and I find your degree of certainty deeply unsettling.
My issue isn't with Catwoman as played by Hathaway or written by Nolan in particular, but that the character itself is a pathetic juvenile fantasy with the depth of a puddle to begin with.
-getting into the car with the politician wasn't that important to the plot.
-the queen is an ugly bint and she still mingles with the elite.
-alfred wouldn't know where bane was.
-bane could have just lured him in on his own - B-man was looking for bane, after all.
-my point is that she kept stealing things even when she was looking for her escape from theft - POINTLESSLY stealing EASILY TRACEABLE things, like the necklace and the car. she's a klepto. She doesn't want to quit.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
necklace was more pointless. car was more traceable. My point is, she's not stealing because she needs to, or even needs to in order to stop stealing. She keeps stealing stuff that's totally unnecessary and has a high chance of getting her caught. She clearly just likes the thrill of it, and the odds of her actually quitting are pretty much nil.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6