how on earth did those cops even manage to hold off Bane's henchmen in front of the courthouse. I mean they were all carrying automatic weapons and the police were armed with pistols and batons.
Overall, I enjoyed the film though. It tied nicely back to Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. While some people didn't like the fact that Batman/Wayne got less screen time, I enjoyed the fact that it had a side plot with Gotham individuals namely Gordon, Blake, and Kyle. Its interesting to note that it is Batman's actions from the prior films and TDKR that spurs these people to action because Batman represents hope. Its evident that many people in Gotham still believe in Batman even after the Dent incident in TDK which motivates them into protecting Gotham. So while Batman isn't technically in all of the films, his ideals are evident in the individuals that chose to fight back. Besides, who could stand listening to Batman's voice for 3 hours straight and watching him either get his ass kicked by Bane or kicking Bane's ass at the end.
There was no hint at Miranda Tate being Talia Al Ghul, unless you already knew she existed (scar and injuries or lack thereof notwithstanding), which was really ****; in fact, I didn't even know who that character was until I saw this thread.
Yeah, if you know who Talia al Ghul is, Marion Cotillard's identity is obvious from very early on. I'm not sure how I feel about that segregation of the audience into two different levels of knowledge. Seems a bit cheap, somehow.
That said, you're not correct when you say there are no hints. Cotillard drops Ra's al Ghul's "restore the balance" catchphrase once or twice. Plans go wrong after she hears about them. And Nolan's caginess with the identities of the "child" and the "protector" is suspicious. I feel like it's set up sufficiently subtly and well that a very clever person could catch on, but most wouldn't - which is the hallmark of a good plot twist. Which may be part of the reason why its obviousness with foreknowledge bothered me. It spoiled my experience.
Batman doesn't quit. Bruce Wayne is so obsessed and driven, passing the border of insanity on these traits. He doesn't quit to have coffee with Selena Kyle. He doesn't just hang it up and call it a day. That's the only part of this movie that really bothered me as a longtime Batman fan.
But don't you think there's a little tragedy in Batman's obsession, especially the way Nolan depicted it? I applaud Nolan for having the balls to let Bruce Wayne move on with his life and have a happy ending. Seeing that that is possible, I weep a little for the "old, but still Batman" Wayne of Kingdom Come or Batman Beyond. (Though he sort of moves on at the end of Kingdom Come too, now that I think about it. Sort of.)
The ending was a slap in the face because it kowtowed to mainsteam audiences who don't know who "Dick Grayson" is, so rather than call Robin "Dick Grayson," they chose to call him Robin.
Okay, first of all, you don't put the name "Dick Grayson" in spoiler tags, but you do put "Robin"? What's the point of that?
Second, calling him "Dick Grayson" would have been the slap in the face. He clearly isn't. He wasn't an acrobat, his parents weren't killed during a performance, he wasn't raised by Bruce Wayne, he's not a son figure (except perhaps to Gordon, and they certainly couldn't call him "Babs"). He's an amalgam of the various Robins and Robin the concept as an original character. Naming him the way they did was exactly the right call.
Yes he is, and that is a huge problem I have with the film. The film is supposed to be Batman's story, but it doesn't focus anywhere near enough on Batman. It's trying to do too much.
I don't care about John Blake. I care about Batman. Make him the center of the movie! It's a ****ing Batman trilogy, why the hell is something as basic as "make the movie that's about Batman actually about Batman" not something we can depend on happening? How dumb is that?
I actually do care about Batman's journey and I do think it is the center of the film. I found Blakes transformation just as interesting though.
Here's something I wrote elsewhere on the web. I think a lot of it applies to this conversation.
Every criticism of this film has been completely trivial. No one has actually talked about what the film is actually about. It is called The Dark Knight Rises. In the beginning of the film we see Bruce Wayne, billionaire recluse, beaten down and depressed...because there's no fight to be had. His entire life has had purpose up until this point; that of ridding Gotham of the evil that took his parents. But, with that evil abated, he no longer finds purpose in his life. And, he cannot finish his lifelong goal of dying for the city. Yes, he does indeed want to die for the cause. Alfred sees it and tells him he won't be a part of it.
It is when a threat too huge for the Police of Gotham appears that we see Wayne come out of his shell of hiding. Because he can fulfill that purpose and fight and die for the city becoming the martyr that he feels he needs to be.
He is confronted in his journey with Alfred's honesty, a man named John Blake with a background very similar to his own, and a woman in whom he sees a bit of himself; Selina Kyle.
Bane breaks him and throws him in a hole in the ground. It is symbolic of the hole of despair he has been in his whole life. And it is only when he fears for his own safety that he is able to climb from that hole in the ground and save the city. "Why do we fall, Bruce?"
Now, if any of you would like to argue that journey, that arc of the film, then so be it. But, there is no need to pick apart things like "how did he get back into the city?" Especially because we watched him get into a plane that was still flying in the previous film! We already know he has the means to do these things. It is the symbolic moments of his journey, the emotional growth of the character, that are important and need to appear on screen.
As I let this film sink in and as I absorb the journey of Bruce Wayne in this film, the more I think it surpasses the previous films.
Because wanted to see how it ended. What kind of question is that?
A legitimate one. I recognize the why, it was more of a rhetorical 'why would you force yourself through'.
Batman wins, that's the ending. If you didn't like the lead-up, why would stay for the ending? There are plenty of movies I've hated that I'm mildly interested in how they end, but I'd never suffer through the whole thing just to get to something I will most likely also hate.
But, there is no need to pick apart things like "how did he get back into the city?"
I agree, that to me is trivial.
What bothers me about the film is that, as you said, the protagonist is Batman. The central character journey is Batman. Yet SO MUCH of this film has to do with not-Batman. There very simply is no focus in this film. It bogs itself down with far too many plotlines, ignoring major characters that we've grown to care about (sorry Alfred and Lucius, we're just going to casually ignore you. Better luck next movi- oh... right...) in exchange for spending what feels like hours with the Gotham police department. Yet in all that time, even Gordon is relegated to a minor character.
The Dark Knight was able to do this successfully for precisely the opposite reason. The film takes the characters we've grown to care about (Batman, Gordon, Alfred, Fox) and places them in a situation where we have the rise and fall of someone who is the hope of Gotham, as well as the terror of the Joker. The center of the movie is the rise and fall of Harvey Dent (well, it SHOULD have been. That's actually a problem with that movie, it focuses too much on the Joker, but it manages to get away with it), but the characters are still focused on, and the movie still achieves a unity. This movie has no unity or focus.
Not to mention the plot makes no sense. I want to make very clear here, once again if you like this film I'm not trying to invalidate your experience in anyway. I think the consensus is that the film is obviously flawed, but that doesn't have any bearing on whether or not you liked it.
But the movie made no sense at all from beginning to end. It just degenerates into "things are happening that are action-filled. Other things will follow. Do not bother thinking, just go with it."
Bane's takeover of the city felt stupid. Compare to the Joker's conquest of the city. With Bane, it felt almost like we went into alternate-reality fiction. We made a leap into the fantastical in a series that has been noteworthy specifically for its attempts to ground Batman in reality.
I think that's why I loved Catwoman so much. In addition to a great performance, chemistry with Christian Bale, humor in an otherwise straight movie; and Catwoman stepping in to fill the role of "someone who reminds you that Batman is a human being" that Alfred and Lucius would normally fill but weren't able to due to writer ignoring, Catwoman was the only thing that really felt real in this film. She was the only grounded person. No one else felt alive, and the love affair between Catwoman and Batman worked brilliantly. I groaned when I heard Catwoman was in this movie out of fear of a terribly-handled, tacked-on romance, yet the movie made that easily the best part of the film because it was brilliantly handled and I actually felt things while watching it.
Also, the fact that Talia turns out to be the big reveal in no way detracts from Bane's importance to the story. The fact that there's an inside agent working with Bane doesn't automatically make him the "dumb muscle".
It really, really does. Bane is established as being the physically intimidating guy, and not a whole lot else. The two things that made Bane anything more than just the intimidating muscle was the movie trying to establish him as:
1. A mastermind
2. This sense of mystique of him being born in hell-on-earth, thereby making him seem otherworldly, and a foil to Batman who grew up in luxury.
First of all, number 2 would make sense in normal Batman comic continuity, but certainly not with the Nolan-verse where Batman went through the world's underbelly, got locked up in prison penniless in China, was trained by ninjas, and managed to tear the League of Shadows a new one.
The movie also screws with 1 by making Bane's plan make very little sense at all.
Yet still, the movie still maintains that he's the mastermind behind the whole League of Shadows, and he's the child born in darkness.
Then Talia is revealed to in fact be both of those. Yeah, sorry Bane. You're now just physically intimidating.
Overall good, not great. I think both TDK and Avengers were better films with better action and plots. The highlight to me were the fistfights with Bane, I liked Robin a lot, I liked Gordan and Bale, and the story was told well for the most part.
I think catwoman was too large a part, Bane was too unimportant, the focus was on silly things (I thought the Pit was just not very entertaining, and they spoiled their twist), Talia was terrible (she died like it was a soap opera), and Nolan killed it with score (again).
I think the movie could have been much better even with the material it had, and I think minor changes would help it a lot. I would watch a Nightwing movie though.
EDIT
Also, they made the league of shadows become the Joker. Really? Waiting 5 months for a bomb to blow while living in anarchy after defeating Batman and cutting his television access? When there was a detonator only revealed to create false tension? Revealing it in a terrorist act at a football stadium?
They should be about efficiency, not about the drama.
@Highroller You say they focused too much on side plots ignoring Batman who should be the focus (I really do believe he is the focus of the film, but that doesn't matter), and yet you wanted them to focus more on Gordon and Fox? You can't have it both ways.
Also, what about the plot doesn't make sense? You keep saying that, but your descriptions are vague about it.
Is it just me, but wouldn't the ending been a lot better if Batman had punched Talia straight in the face as she lays dying because of the roller coaster she put him through, and then she gets to live to see him taking the bomb away so that she dies defeated instead of triumphant?
Is it just me, but wouldn't the ending been a lot better if Batman had punched Talia straight in the face as she lays dying because of the roller coaster she put him through, and then she gets to live to see him taking the bomb away so that she dies defeated instead of triumphant?
Also, why wasn't the prison dark?
It would have been better if she and Bane had both lived, known of their failure, and then Bats didn't retire right after coming out of retirement. I mean we got a whole years worth of actual Batman activity out of Nolan's Batman with an eight year hiatus in between. So much of that just doesn't feel like Bruce Wayne. The prison was mostly shown during the day with the sun shining in to give a sense of hope. It makes less sense that no one seems to be able to scale a wall with a rope, especially Batman.
That said, you're not correct when you say there are no hints. Cotillard drops Ra's al Ghul's "restore the balance" catchphrase once or twice. Plans go wrong after she hears about them. And Nolan's caginess with the identities of the "child" and the "protector" is suspicious. I feel like it's set up sufficiently subtly and well that a very clever person could catch on, but most wouldn't - which is the hallmark of a good plot twist. Which may be part of the reason why its obviousness with foreknowledge bothered me. It spoiled my experience.
So I hear. All I remember was feeling a strange atmosphere when she said certain lines (the content of which I don't recall). I was planning to watch it again, in IMAX, and I'll keep an eye out for all the clues.
@Highroller You say they focused too much on side plots ignoring Batman who should be the focus (I really do believe he is the focus of the film, but that doesn't matter), and yet you wanted them to focus more on Gordon and Fox? You can't have it both ways.
He wanted those (great) characters to have more of a roll in Batman's arc. He didn't want the movie to derail from Batman's arc.
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@Highroller You say they focused too much on side plots ignoring Batman who should be the focus (I really do believe he is the focus of the film, but that doesn't matter), and yet you wanted them to focus more on Gordon and Fox? You can't have it both ways.
I'm saying they didn't focus on ANY of the characters we care about. Not Batman, not Fox, not Alfred, not even Gordon. Those are the four characters who matter! Go back and write me a story that has to do with them.
Also, what about the plot doesn't make sense? You keep saying that, but your descriptions are vague about it.
Explain how Bane's plan makes any sense at all and isn't ridiculous and stupid.
When you're done doing that, please explain the most ridiculous thing of all, which is the idea that,
Bruce Wayne cannot climb a wall when a child could on her first try.
Seriously, BRUCE WAYNE, a trained ninja who climbed a damn mountain before he was ever trained by the League of Shadows, cannot make a jump? Are you kidding me?
At what point did Talia confirm that Bruce had built the Fusion Reactor? The entire point of their plan, which began before Talia was shown the reactor, relied exclusively upon it. It seems kind of silly to start a plan in motion if the one thing you need to be true is unknown. Also, why did the scientist confirm that he was the only one who could disarm it, it is obvious that it was a death sentence. If I was him, I would have said that any engineer with half a brain could do it just to slight Bane right before he was going to kill me.
Actually, nevermind, dimir. I'm going to explain Bane's plan.
Bane's plan: I'm in love with Talia, so I'm going to do whatever she wants.
Talia's plan: I want my father's love, but my dad didn't like Bane because he reminded him of his failure as a father and a husband, so he threw him out, so I hated him for a while and went off to be a billionaire philanthropist, but then he died trying to poison an entire city and I realized how much I cared about him and now I'm going to try to destroy the city and kill the guy who murdered him.
THESE ARE NOT COMPELLING VILLAINS! Ra's al-Ghul was interesting! The Joker was interesting! These guys are TOOLS!
So I hear. All I remember was feeling a strange atmosphere when she said certain lines (the content of which I don't recall). I was planning to watch it again, in IMAX, and I'll keep an eye out for all the clues.
Well also,
Bane is supposed to have gotten his injuries in prison, yet the child has no injuries.
Although, Bane outright says he was born in darkness and then wasn't,
so anyone who's seeing the movie again, please take mental notes of what's established regarding that and tell me if it makes sense.
At what point did Talia confirm that Bruce had built the Fusion Reactor? The entire point of their plan, which began before Talia was shown the reactor, relied exclusively upon it. It seems kind of silly to start a plan in motion if the one thing you need to be true is unknown. Also, why did the scientist confirm that he was the only one who could disarm it, it is obvious that it was a death sentence. If I was him, I would have said that any engineer with half a brain could do it just to slight Bane right before he was going to kill me.
Yeah, two instances of Bane's plan relied entirely upon Batman being stupid in ways he could not reasonably have foreseen.
These are:
1. Not flushing the reactor in to the sea
2. Diverting the entire Gotham Police Department's attention so that Bane could escape. Keep in mind that Bane had the entire police department chasing him because he walked into Wall Street and shot people in the open, then went around speeding through the city in motorcycles.
Actually, minor continuity issue: Wasn't it daylight when Bane walks into the Wall Street building? I seem to remember it being daylight when he walks in, but nighttime when he gets out.
Also, let's talk about Bane's plan to get rid of the police.
Bane traps the entirety of the Gotham Police Department underground. This is reliant upon Gotham being dumb and sending every man they have down there, which is beyond ridiculous.
(Although, admittedly, I might not be giving Bane/Talia's planning skills enough credit, because having every single officer in one location where they can easily be outmaneuvered or incapacitated seems to be the Gotham Police Department's excuse for everything.)
But later on, John Blake is trying to bust them out. So we see him opening a manhole before he gets caught — wait a minute, opening a manhole? What the ****? That's all you needed to do to free them? Open a damn manhole? Are you kidding me?
First, I liked this movie quite a lot. As a movie overall, I liked TDKR better than the first two movies (if not for the sheer brilliance of Ledger's Joker, the second film is just an above average action movie that sags in the middle and has one too many endings. A movie that is entirely about the Joker, and barely has anything to do with Batman. Harvey Dent is an utterly pointless plot device, and the whole Rachel/Bruce relationship feels fake.
TDKR movie was better plotted, and there were so many callbacks and tied up so many of the original themes.
Nolan sees the problems of Batman as lifelong street crime fighter or world's greatest detective in tights as being as silly as I do. He addesses the complaints i had about the comic book batman. It would take a sociopath who likes to hit people and be an untreated PTSD to be the Batman of the comics, so Nolan doesnt go that route (and i know any really good actor like Christian Bale who "occupies" the character would recognize the problems and be unable to portray him as he is in the comics). Thank you Nolan and Bale, for making a Batman that makes far more sense. He is needed to protect the world against super terrorist anarchists, not organized crime and crap like that.
Compare Peter Parker to Bruce Wayne.
Parker is being himself and lives as himself. Bruce is being FAKE in his Bruce identity.
Spidey in the comics is Peter's chance to let loose, and be more outgoing, but he admits to himself that when his life has too much drama, he likes to swing around and hit a few bad guys... Though not excessively. He has super strength and spider sense, so he's actually in little danger and he is holding BACK against most criminals.
Batman in the comics seems to be lying to himself. Dude obviously loves breaking bones and kicking ass, but denies it. Though extremely well trained, he is just human, and puts himself in a lot of danger. Also has billions in resources he could do far more good with than just solve crime after its happened.
Nolan's Batman and Bruce are admittedly psychologically damaged and those who know them recognize it. Alfred clearly does.. And in the final batman movie, Bruce comes to terms with it all and stops being Batman.
The movie wasn't perfect (sorry, but covering up too much of Bane's face with the gas mask especially his mouth took away so much of Hardy's performance, that it just didn't work. I assume from his earlier work that he could have pulled off a far more charismatic and frightening Bane if he didn't have to have almost his whole face covered up. Also the plot may have bitten off a tiny bit more than it could chew and it was all a bit loose. Like the script could have used one more great re-write)
i don't think the sense of the city under anarchy and being run with kangaroo courts a la the French Revolution Was well portrayed. The mood failed. It was just a city under occupation. They didn't convey the idea that the "have nots" actually enjoyed society being turned on its head.
It all felt like... Temporary occupation... Like going through the motions... Because Batman is coming to rescue everyone from it anyway.
Also Selena's line about "living large" was brilliant... But it didn't make sense coming from Catwoman. Should have come from a "true believer" like Talia.
To me there was really a huge potential theme there in that line... But it's like Nolan didn't have the guts to explore and potentially legitimize some of that "revolutionary" socialist standpoint:
It would have been better if she and Bane had both lived, known of their failure, and then Bats didn't retire right after coming out of retirement. I mean we got a whole years worth of actual Batman activity out of Nolan's Batman with an eight year hiatus in between. So much of that just doesn't feel like Bruce Wayne. The prison was mostly shown during the day with the sun shining in to give a sense of hope. It makes less sense that no one seems to be able to scale a wall with a rope, especially Batman.
the rope was not used to help anybody climb. It was slack for everybody when climbing. It was there for SAFETY, so that when you fell, you don't DIE. Batman had broken his back, prior to entering the prison so he might have been less than 100% in his physical abilities initially.
I'm certain I was not the only one who guessed that he would eventually refuse the safety rope for his ultimate, successful climb.
Yeah, if you know who Talia al Ghul is, Marion Cotillard's identity is obvious from very early on. I'm not sure how I feel about that segregation of the audience into two different levels of knowledge. Seems a bit cheap, somehow.
That said, you're not correct when you say there are no hints. Cotillard drops Ra's al Ghul's "restore the balance" catchphrase once or twice. Plans go wrong after she hears about them. And Nolan's caginess with the identities of the "child" and the "protector" is suspicious. I feel like it's set up sufficiently subtly and well that a very clever person could catch on, but most wouldn't - which is the hallmark of a good plot twist.
I am only mildly familiar with Talia's character (she loved Bruce in the comics right?), but the caginess about the identities of Child and protector thing is indeed the thing that tipped me off that there was something up. Plus the kid looked like a girl. I was pretty certain that The woman held the detonator and was in cahoots when Batman had to leave her a prisoner.
Quote from blinking spirit »
Which may be part of the reason why its obviousness with foreknowledge bothered me. It spoiled my experience.
Listen to Hans Zimmer's Nolanverse Batman theme and the the theme from the old show side-by-side.
Nolan may be crafting a gritty psychological Batman story, but he's not too cool to give nods to the Adam West version.
But don't you think there's a little tragedy in Batman's obsession, especially the way Nolan depicted it? I applaud Nolan for having the balls to let Bruce Wayne move on with his life and have a happy ending. Seeing that that is possible, I weep a little for the "old, but still Batman" Wayne of Kingdom Come or Batman Beyond. (Though he sort of moves on at the end of Kingdom Come too, now that I think about it. Sort of.)
I feel horrible for all the versions of Batman in the comics, from Year One to the Dark knight returns, Kingdom come, etc. Fighting crime one broken bone at a time, with the darkness of Gotham City never getting much better...
"this would be a good death..."
What would Batman think? Doesn't he want out? Nolan's Batman wanted out.
Quote from blinking spirit »
Okay, first of all, you don't put the name "Dick Grayson" in spoiler tags, but you do put "Robin"? What's the point of that?
Second, calling him "Dick Grayson" would have been the slap in the face. He clearly isn't. He wasn't an acrobat, his parents weren't killed during a performance, he wasn't raised by Bruce Wayne, he's not a son figure (except perhaps to Gordon, and they certainly couldn't call him "Babs"). He's an amalgam of the various Robins and Robin the concept as an original character. Naming him the way they did was exactly the right call.
re: John Blake:
I agree that John Blake can be seen as an amalgam of the concept of a "Robin" who will continue Batman's legacy... Possibly AS the "next" Batman ( the next dread pirate Roberts ), or Nightwing, or Robin.
In the movie, revealing John's real name "Robin" (as well as Batman's retirement) actually precludes him from becoming the hero from the comics named Robin (way to give away your identity, eh? I'll be a superhero named "Bruce" ).
But what it does do is throw the general audience a shout-out to the Robin character (a name that all but the most comic book illiterate audiences DO know) so that the audience can all immediately "get" the fact that when John Blake is retiring, then goes to the bat cave, etc. He is doing so in order to replace Bruce.
Not only a shout out, but without that bit, it's not 100% clear to everyone that John is going to the cave specifically to become a superhero, Gotham's savior.
And yes, Catwoman was my favorite character in the movie.
both her and black Widow were awesome this year playing heros in black jumpsuits who can play on men's stupidity with extremely convincing portrayals of stereotypes held by males. I loved how Catwoman played the hysterical woman in the bar when the cops rolled in.
Also, somehow they made her face reminiscent of a cat, even without ears or mask on... Dunno what they were doing with the makeup exactly, but it was noticeable and cool.
And again, Bane was markedly disappointing. He had no "presence" for me, no matter how many times the characters told us Bane was so badass, and no matter what kind of ass he managed to kick.
Remember Ultimate Warrior in WWF? Kinda like that. ultimate warrior was biggest and strongest... But he just had no presence or voice or charisma.
The only two nitpicks I had with the whole movie that really stand out upon just recently watching it are how the hell does JGL know that Bruce is Batman? I know he explains it kind of but I don't buy it. Also, heat seeking missiles on the Batwing is bogus because no afterburner = no tracking.
This movie probably would of got all 5\5s if Batman would of died. Critics HATE super hero movies with happy endings but LOVE them when the hero is broken or tragedy happens, ala Watchmen and The Dark Knight. People wanted to see Batman dead. Sad really.
I loved the movie! Best trilogy to date and Best Movie of the Three!
There are always things that dont add up logically in all movies but you have to ignore that or no movie will be good in your eyes.
I'd Say best movie I have ever seen, with a close second and third with Prometheus and Return of the King respectively
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I'm going to just throw this out there and see if it pisses anyone off, because it seems to be the minority opinion (after reading 2 reviews, and thus being an expert).
Is it just me, or is catwoman/selina kyle one of the most painful Mary Sues ever?
I'm not criticizing Nolan's use of her, per se, or Hathaway's acting, I think she did fine. But as someone who's read (and written, sadly, hindsight being 20/20) plenty of horribly indulgent characters, catwoman was kind of painful to watch. First of all, she's a thief, because thieves are rebellious and lawless enough to be cool, but not brutal in a way that would offend those with delicate sensibilities. There's even the tired she-did-it-to-eat justification thrown in there just in case we didn't feel sympathetic for her, although it doesn't really explain why she's stealing heirlooms, sports cars, or has super spy gadgets. And on top of that, she just wants to escape her life of crime, despite the aforementioned major commitment in the form of spy gadgets and high-profile heists, even after she's made it clear that she's trying to change her lifestyle. Yeah, I give her a week after "escaping" before someone catches her trying to smuggle candy out of a kmart.
Then, on top of all the cool and sympathy we've layered on top of her, she speaks exclusively in one-liners, abuses her sexuality at every opportunity, wears impractical fetishistic outfits, and of course
ends up with the hero at the end, despite the fact that he's sworn to uphold justice and she's a kleptomaniac who has nothing in common with him besides that they like to wear black and have pretty faces. Ok, that's one more thing than most movie romances have going for them, but still.
So...I dunno. I just don't see any way that she works as anything other than a fan wank character. Feel free to hate me.
EDIT: oh yeah, and the
"oh the main character totally died, aren't you so sad? oh, wait, psych, he's totally alive! aren't you so happy now?" game of peek-a-boo with the audience has to be among my least favorite tools to manipulate viewer emotions ever. And yes, as a matter of fact that DOES include gandalf! Tolkein: also an overrated hack?
TDKR movie was better plotted, and there were so many callbacks and tied up so many of the original themes.
Actually, there was one theme that never got tied up: Bruce's parents.
Which was strange, considering Bruce killed Talia's father.
The whole story of Batman Begins was about Bruce's relationship with his father, as well as his surrogate father figures in the form of Ra's al-Ghul and Alfred.
Bruce's parents never got called back ever. Compare this to Batman: Mask of the Phantasm where Bruce has the conflict between moving forward and getting married, and his overwhelming sense of guilt and obligation toward his parents.
Is it just me, or is catwoman/selina kyle one of the most painful Mary Sues ever?
Nope.
Then, on top of all the cool and sympathy we've layered on top of her, she speaks exclusively in one-liners, abuses her sexuality at every opportunity, wears impractical fetishistic outfits, and of course
ends up with the hero at the end, despite the fact that he's sworn to uphold justice and she's a kleptomaniac who has nothing in common with him besides that they like to wear black and have pretty faces. Ok, that's one more thing than most movie romances have going for them, but still.
I WANT MY MONEY BACK.
Yeah, if you know who Talia al Ghul is, Marion Cotillard's identity is obvious from very early on. I'm not sure how I feel about that segregation of the audience into two different levels of knowledge. Seems a bit cheap, somehow.
That said, you're not correct when you say there are no hints. Cotillard drops Ra's al Ghul's "restore the balance" catchphrase once or twice. Plans go wrong after she hears about them. And Nolan's caginess with the identities of the "child" and the "protector" is suspicious. I feel like it's set up sufficiently subtly and well that a very clever person could catch on, but most wouldn't - which is the hallmark of a good plot twist. Which may be part of the reason why its obviousness with foreknowledge bothered me. It spoiled my experience.
Listen to Hans Zimmer's Nolanverse Batman theme and the the theme from the old show side-by-side.
Nolan may be crafting a gritty psychological Batman story, but he's not too cool to give nods to the Adam West version.
But don't you think there's a little tragedy in Batman's obsession, especially the way Nolan depicted it? I applaud Nolan for having the balls to let Bruce Wayne move on with his life and have a happy ending. Seeing that that is possible, I weep a little for the "old, but still Batman" Wayne of Kingdom Come or Batman Beyond. (Though he sort of moves on at the end of Kingdom Come too, now that I think about it. Sort of.)
Okay, first of all, you don't put the name "Dick Grayson" in spoiler tags, but you do put "Robin"? What's the point of that?
Second, calling him "Dick Grayson" would have been the slap in the face. He clearly isn't. He wasn't an acrobat, his parents weren't killed during a performance, he wasn't raised by Bruce Wayne, he's not a son figure (except perhaps to Gordon, and they certainly couldn't call him "Babs"). He's an amalgam of the various Robins and Robin the concept as an original character. Naming him the way they did was exactly the right call.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I actually do care about Batman's journey and I do think it is the center of the film. I found Blakes transformation just as interesting though.
Here's something I wrote elsewhere on the web. I think a lot of it applies to this conversation.
Every criticism of this film has been completely trivial. No one has actually talked about what the film is actually about. It is called The Dark Knight Rises. In the beginning of the film we see Bruce Wayne, billionaire recluse, beaten down and depressed...because there's no fight to be had. His entire life has had purpose up until this point; that of ridding Gotham of the evil that took his parents. But, with that evil abated, he no longer finds purpose in his life. And, he cannot finish his lifelong goal of dying for the city. Yes, he does indeed want to die for the cause. Alfred sees it and tells him he won't be a part of it.
It is when a threat too huge for the Police of Gotham appears that we see Wayne come out of his shell of hiding. Because he can fulfill that purpose and fight and die for the city becoming the martyr that he feels he needs to be.
He is confronted in his journey with Alfred's honesty, a man named John Blake with a background very similar to his own, and a woman in whom he sees a bit of himself; Selina Kyle.
Bane breaks him and throws him in a hole in the ground. It is symbolic of the hole of despair he has been in his whole life. And it is only when he fears for his own safety that he is able to climb from that hole in the ground and save the city. "Why do we fall, Bruce?"
Now, if any of you would like to argue that journey, that arc of the film, then so be it. But, there is no need to pick apart things like "how did he get back into the city?" Especially because we watched him get into a plane that was still flying in the previous film! We already know he has the means to do these things. It is the symbolic moments of his journey, the emotional growth of the character, that are important and need to appear on screen.
As I let this film sink in and as I absorb the journey of Bruce Wayne in this film, the more I think it surpasses the previous films.
A legitimate one. I recognize the why, it was more of a rhetorical 'why would you force yourself through'.
Batman wins, that's the ending. If you didn't like the lead-up, why would stay for the ending? There are plenty of movies I've hated that I'm mildly interested in how they end, but I'd never suffer through the whole thing just to get to something I will most likely also hate.
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What bothers me about the film is that, as you said, the protagonist is Batman. The central character journey is Batman. Yet SO MUCH of this film has to do with not-Batman. There very simply is no focus in this film. It bogs itself down with far too many plotlines, ignoring major characters that we've grown to care about (sorry Alfred and Lucius, we're just going to casually ignore you. Better luck next movi- oh... right...) in exchange for spending what feels like hours with the Gotham police department. Yet in all that time, even Gordon is relegated to a minor character.
The Dark Knight was able to do this successfully for precisely the opposite reason. The film takes the characters we've grown to care about (Batman, Gordon, Alfred, Fox) and places them in a situation where we have the rise and fall of someone who is the hope of Gotham, as well as the terror of the Joker. The center of the movie is the rise and fall of Harvey Dent (well, it SHOULD have been. That's actually a problem with that movie, it focuses too much on the Joker, but it manages to get away with it), but the characters are still focused on, and the movie still achieves a unity. This movie has no unity or focus.
Not to mention the plot makes no sense. I want to make very clear here, once again if you like this film I'm not trying to invalidate your experience in anyway. I think the consensus is that the film is obviously flawed, but that doesn't have any bearing on whether or not you liked it.
But the movie made no sense at all from beginning to end. It just degenerates into "things are happening that are action-filled. Other things will follow. Do not bother thinking, just go with it."
Bane's takeover of the city felt stupid. Compare to the Joker's conquest of the city. With Bane, it felt almost like we went into alternate-reality fiction. We made a leap into the fantastical in a series that has been noteworthy specifically for its attempts to ground Batman in reality.
I think that's why I loved Catwoman so much. In addition to a great performance, chemistry with Christian Bale, humor in an otherwise straight movie; and Catwoman stepping in to fill the role of "someone who reminds you that Batman is a human being" that Alfred and Lucius would normally fill but weren't able to due to writer ignoring, Catwoman was the only thing that really felt real in this film. She was the only grounded person. No one else felt alive, and the love affair between Catwoman and Batman worked brilliantly. I groaned when I heard Catwoman was in this movie out of fear of a terribly-handled, tacked-on romance, yet the movie made that easily the best part of the film because it was brilliantly handled and I actually felt things while watching it.
It really, really does. Bane is established as being the physically intimidating guy, and not a whole lot else. The two things that made Bane anything more than just the intimidating muscle was the movie trying to establish him as:
1. A mastermind
2. This sense of mystique of him being born in hell-on-earth, thereby making him seem otherworldly, and a foil to Batman who grew up in luxury.
First of all, number 2 would make sense in normal Batman comic continuity, but certainly not with the Nolan-verse where Batman went through the world's underbelly, got locked up in prison penniless in China, was trained by ninjas, and managed to tear the League of Shadows a new one.
The movie also screws with 1 by making Bane's plan make very little sense at all.
Then Talia is revealed to in fact be both of those. Yeah, sorry Bane. You're now just physically intimidating.
I think catwoman was too large a part, Bane was too unimportant, the focus was on silly things (I thought the Pit was just not very entertaining, and they spoiled their twist), Talia was terrible (she died like it was a soap opera), and Nolan killed it with score (again).
I think the movie could have been much better even with the material it had, and I think minor changes would help it a lot. I would watch a Nightwing movie though.
EDIT
Also, they made the league of shadows become the Joker. Really? Waiting 5 months for a bomb to blow while living in anarchy after defeating Batman and cutting his television access? When there was a detonator only revealed to create false tension? Revealing it in a terrorist act at a football stadium?
They should be about efficiency, not about the drama.
Also, what about the plot doesn't make sense? You keep saying that, but your descriptions are vague about it.
Also, why wasn't the prison dark?
He wanted those (great) characters to have more of a roll in Batman's arc. He didn't want the movie to derail from Batman's arc.
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
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I'm saying they didn't focus on ANY of the characters we care about. Not Batman, not Fox, not Alfred, not even Gordon. Those are the four characters who matter! Go back and write me a story that has to do with them.
Explain how Bane's plan makes any sense at all and isn't ridiculous and stupid.
When you're done doing that, please explain the most ridiculous thing of all, which is the idea that,
Seriously, BRUCE WAYNE, a trained ninja who climbed a damn mountain before he was ever trained by the League of Shadows, cannot make a jump? Are you kidding me?
... WOW.
You, sir, have just won the thread.
Talia's plan: I want my father's love, but my dad didn't like Bane because he reminded him of his failure as a father and a husband, so he threw him out, so I hated him for a while and went off to be a billionaire philanthropist, but then he died trying to poison an entire city and I realized how much I cared about him and now I'm going to try to destroy the city and kill the guy who murdered him.
THESE ARE NOT COMPELLING VILLAINS! Ra's al-Ghul was interesting! The Joker was interesting! These guys are TOOLS!
Well also,
Although, Bane outright says he was born in darkness and then wasn't,
so anyone who's seeing the movie again, please take mental notes of what's established regarding that and tell me if it makes sense.
Yeah, two instances of Bane's plan relied entirely upon Batman being stupid in ways he could not reasonably have foreseen.
1. Not flushing the reactor in to the sea
2. Diverting the entire Gotham Police Department's attention so that Bane could escape. Keep in mind that Bane had the entire police department chasing him because he walked into Wall Street and shot people in the open, then went around speeding through the city in motorcycles.
Actually, minor continuity issue: Wasn't it daylight when Bane walks into the Wall Street building? I seem to remember it being daylight when he walks in, but nighttime when he gets out.
Also, let's talk about Bane's plan to get rid of the police.
(Although, admittedly, I might not be giving Bane/Talia's planning skills enough credit, because having every single officer in one location where they can easily be outmaneuvered or incapacitated seems to be the Gotham Police Department's excuse for everything.)
But later on, John Blake is trying to bust them out. So we see him opening a manhole before he gets caught — wait a minute, opening a manhole? What the ****? That's all you needed to do to free them? Open a damn manhole? Are you kidding me?
TDKR movie was better plotted, and there were so many callbacks and tied up so many of the original themes.
Compare Peter Parker to Bruce Wayne.
Parker is being himself and lives as himself. Bruce is being FAKE in his Bruce identity.
Spidey in the comics is Peter's chance to let loose, and be more outgoing, but he admits to himself that when his life has too much drama, he likes to swing around and hit a few bad guys... Though not excessively. He has super strength and spider sense, so he's actually in little danger and he is holding BACK against most criminals.
Batman in the comics seems to be lying to himself. Dude obviously loves breaking bones and kicking ass, but denies it. Though extremely well trained, he is just human, and puts himself in a lot of danger. Also has billions in resources he could do far more good with than just solve crime after its happened.
Nolan's Batman and Bruce are admittedly psychologically damaged and those who know them recognize it. Alfred clearly does.. And in the final batman movie, Bruce comes to terms with it all and stops being Batman.
The movie wasn't perfect (sorry, but covering up too much of Bane's face with the gas mask especially his mouth took away so much of Hardy's performance, that it just didn't work. I assume from his earlier work that he could have pulled off a far more charismatic and frightening Bane if he didn't have to have almost his whole face covered up. Also the plot may have bitten off a tiny bit more than it could chew and it was all a bit loose. Like the script could have used one more great re-write)
It all felt like... Temporary occupation... Like going through the motions... Because Batman is coming to rescue everyone from it anyway.
Also Selena's line about "living large" was brilliant... But it didn't make sense coming from Catwoman. Should have come from a "true believer" like Talia.
To me there was really a huge potential theme there in that line... But it's like Nolan didn't have the guts to explore and potentially legitimize some of that "revolutionary" socialist standpoint:
I'm certain I was not the only one who guessed that he would eventually refuse the safety rope for his ultimate, successful climb.
"this would be a good death..."
What would Batman think? Doesn't he want out? Nolan's Batman wanted out.
re: John Blake:
In the movie, revealing John's real name "Robin" (as well as Batman's retirement) actually precludes him from becoming the hero from the comics named Robin (way to give away your identity, eh? I'll be a superhero named "Bruce" ).
But what it does do is throw the general audience a shout-out to the Robin character (a name that all but the most comic book illiterate audiences DO know) so that the audience can all immediately "get" the fact that when John Blake is retiring, then goes to the bat cave, etc. He is doing so in order to replace Bruce.
Not only a shout out, but without that bit, it's not 100% clear to everyone that John is going to the cave specifically to become a superhero, Gotham's savior.
And yes, Catwoman was my favorite character in the movie.
Also, somehow they made her face reminiscent of a cat, even without ears or mask on... Dunno what they were doing with the makeup exactly, but it was noticeable and cool.
And again, Bane was markedly disappointing. He had no "presence" for me, no matter how many times the characters told us Bane was so badass, and no matter what kind of ass he managed to kick.
Remember Ultimate Warrior in WWF? Kinda like that. ultimate warrior was biggest and strongest... But he just had no presence or voice or charisma.
Failure to use spoiler tags, warning issued. - LN
There are always things that dont add up logically in all movies but you have to ignore that or no movie will be good in your eyes.
I'd Say best movie I have ever seen, with a close second and third with Prometheus and Return of the King respectively
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EDH:
Kaalia
Is it just me, or is catwoman/selina kyle one of the most painful Mary Sues ever?
I'm not criticizing Nolan's use of her, per se, or Hathaway's acting, I think she did fine. But as someone who's read (and written, sadly, hindsight being 20/20) plenty of horribly indulgent characters, catwoman was kind of painful to watch. First of all, she's a thief, because thieves are rebellious and lawless enough to be cool, but not brutal in a way that would offend those with delicate sensibilities. There's even the tired she-did-it-to-eat justification thrown in there just in case we didn't feel sympathetic for her, although it doesn't really explain why she's stealing heirlooms, sports cars, or has super spy gadgets. And on top of that, she just wants to escape her life of crime, despite the aforementioned major commitment in the form of spy gadgets and high-profile heists, even after she's made it clear that she's trying to change her lifestyle. Yeah, I give her a week after "escaping" before someone catches her trying to smuggle candy out of a kmart.
Then, on top of all the cool and sympathy we've layered on top of her, she speaks exclusively in one-liners, abuses her sexuality at every opportunity, wears impractical fetishistic outfits, and of course
So...I dunno. I just don't see any way that she works as anything other than a fan wank character. Feel free to hate me.
EDIT: oh yeah, and the
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Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Actually, there was one theme that never got tied up: Bruce's parents.
The whole story of Batman Begins was about Bruce's relationship with his father, as well as his surrogate father figures in the form of Ra's al-Ghul and Alfred.
Bruce's parents never got called back ever. Compare this to Batman: Mask of the Phantasm where Bruce has the conflict between moving forward and getting married, and his overwhelming sense of guilt and obligation toward his parents.
Nope.
She's Catwoman.