I always go for Liandry's Torment, of course, but Iceborn is such a killer item and I think it adds a lot to her burst while also giving great armor and a aoe slow for teamfights.
Thinking Liandry's, sorc shoes, Iceborn, Rylais, Abyssal, Hourglass as a general build with no particular order in mind yet.
I always go for Liandry's Torment, of course, but Iceborn is such a killer item and I think it adds a lot to her burst while also giving great armor and a aoe slow for teamfights.
Thinking Liandry's, sorc shoes, Iceborn, Rylais, Abyssal, Hourglass as a general build with no particular order in mind yet.
Just had my first S3 jungle Elise game and it was awesome. Friends gave me a smiteless blue and I coasted from there. I ended up building Liandry's Torment, sightstone, Iceborn Gauntlet, Abyssal Scepter, Sorc boots.
Sightstone is a must on all supports. It alleviates the strain on ward money by alot especially since HoG is no longer available and Pick isn't a good item for every support.
Sightstone is a must on all supports. It alleviates the strain on ward money by alot especially since HoG is no longer available and Pick isn't a good item for every support.
Not as much as you might think. It does help but in the end you want far more ward coverage than you can achieve with 2-3 wards, depending on the sight stone you have. You will also want pinks for counter warding, as well as covering dragon and baron with.
The sightstones help but realisticly you should still be investing plenty in regular wards even after buying those.
I always go for Liandry's Torment, of course, but Iceborn is such a killer item and I think it adds a lot to her burst while also giving great armor and a aoe slow for teamfights.
Thinking Liandry's, sorc shoes, Iceborn, Rylais, Abyssal, Hourglass as a general build with no particular order in mind yet.
Its conditional but its better than frozen heart on her which I used to build on her to counter ad.
No need for hourglass imo on elise, the 100 ap is meh.
A full elise build for me would be like sorc shoes, iceborn, rylias, abyssal, voidstaff, and a liandry's. I don't bother stacking ap with her because her scaling is meh and her q damage is percent base. Stacking magic pen keeps her from falling off lategame to enemy team getting mr from ruinic bulwark or counterbuilding you.
If I were to list what stats I find good elise it would be
magpen
cdr
mr/armor
ap
any ap I get from items is cool and all but tbh I just want to stack magpen and get full cdr on her. She doesn't need anything else for her damage.
I always go for Liandry's Torment, of course, but Iceborn is such a killer item and I think it adds a lot to her burst while also giving great armor and a aoe slow for teamfights.
Thinking Liandry's, sorc shoes, Iceborn, Rylais, Abyssal, Hourglass as a general build with no particular order in mind yet.
My build for top lane Elise has been looking like this post Season 3:
Sorceror's Shoes -> Haunting Guise -> Abyssal Scepter/Frozen Heart (depending on which I need first) -> Guardian Angel -> Liandry's Torment -> Spirit Visage
Elise doesn't actually need AP to be insane. All of her damage is from her base amounts and her magic penetration, so you can just build her as tanky as you possibly want while still destroying everyone in lane and still doing well post the laning phase.
I once farted during the final match for prizes at an FNM. It was a tense moment, everything was quiet, control vs control, I was about to mana leak, thought about it.. and farted. Then mana leaked.
Not as much as you might think. It does help but in the end you want far more ward coverage than you can achieve with 2-3 wards, depending on the sight stone you have. You will also want pinks for counter warding, as well as covering dragon and baron with.
The sightstones help but realisticly you should still be investing plenty in regular wards even after buying those.
See but the thing is, as a support, you rarely leave the bottom portion of the map until late mid to late game, having those 2-3 wards takes you well into late game when you upgrade it and buy a couple extra wards to supplement.
If you know where to ward, those 2-3 wards can save you alot of money. The key is knowing where to place the ward to maximize ward coverage. I've played enough support to know where to ward on both sides of the map and honestly, it pretty much runs like this
Purple side
1. Spot directly to the right of tribush (covers river and tribush ganks)
1a. Switch to drag towards the end of laning phase to account for dragon coverage)
2. Bot bushes (depending on aggressiveness of both sides + teleport ganks)
3. mid wraiths (if your mid is too lazy)
Blue side
1. Tribush/mid wraiths (either will catch jungler coming in for the back gank)
2. Dragon (river gank + dragon coverage)
3. bot bushes (see above)
I can't really justify any other warding locations for laning phase so adding it all up, its about 1 extra ward every trip back with your sightstone being refilled, and it is within this phase that you save all that money for late game.
Having pink on the other hand, is completely different, normally getting pink is for one of two reasons, drag or baron. I might buy one pink for drag during mid laning phase to possibly allow for early drag or let the jungler gank. By the time baron rolls around, your team should have an oracles making pink wards not as useful because the other team will most likely have oracles especially on a near built tank.
In the games i've played, instead of buying 3 wards on the trip back, i've bought 1 which saves me 150 g per trip. Honestly, there really isn't a reason for any supports to not get a sightstone.
The 2v1 lanes start at champion select. Today in CRS v. TSM, Voyboy picked Elise. Voyboy's Elise wrecks face. TSM counted this pick by picking Jayce and swapping lanes.
Elise was forced to lane against Ezreal and Lulu (iirc... doesn't matter). Oddone was on Maokai. Oddone went Blue->Red->Gank top.
This created at 3v1 scenario. TSM attempted the gank, but Voy predicted it and got away safely. Voy's CS was 15.
In bottom Jayce was 2v1ing Cait/Nunu (iirc). Jayce's CS was 43 when Voy had to run for his life.
TSM took top turret, and Elise was effectively out of the game.
LEARN HOW THIS WORKS. Koreans do this constantly. US has just started to do this.
What roles should do to improve:
AD/Support/Jungle - Learn to dive at very low levels. Be able to tag out aggro and know how much you can take and dish out.
Jungle - Know when to both gank and protect your 2v1'd guy from this kind of gank. A 3v1 is rough on both sides. A 3v2 tower dive does not work.
Top - God speed. Pick champs dependent both on your matchup, but also communicate with your team. A 2v1 can turn a terrible pick into a great one.
Mid - A 3v1 gank top is good. A 4v1 gank is a kill. (Koreans do this frequently too)
Notes:
Good 2v1 champs - Cho (sustain), Jayce (ranged waveclear + mobility), Gragas (mobility + ranged waveclear), Irelia (irelia...). Olaf (waveclear, dangerous)
I've been thinking about other good 2v1 champs, and I think other good ones would include possibly Galio, Vlad, Kennan and Nidalee.
See but the thing is, as a support, you rarely leave the bottom portion of the map until late mid to late game, having those 2-3 wards takes you well into late game when you upgrade it and buy a couple extra wards to supplement.
If you know where to ward, those 2-3 wards can save you alot of money. The key is knowing where to place the ward to maximize ward coverage. I've played enough support to know where to ward on both sides of the map and honestly, it pretty much runs like this
Purple side
1. Spot directly to the right of tribush (covers river and tribush ganks)
1a. Switch to drag towards the end of laning phase to account for dragon coverage)
2. Bot bushes (depending on aggressiveness of both sides + teleport ganks)
3. mid wraiths (if your mid is too lazy)
Blue side
1. Tribush/mid wraiths (either will catch jungler coming in for the back gank)
2. Dragon (river gank + dragon coverage)
3. bot bushes (see above)
I can't really justify any other warding locations for laning phase so adding it all up, its about 1 extra ward every trip back with your sightstone being refilled, and it is within this phase that you save all that money for late game.
Other area's that can easily help your team snowball...
Blue side--Purple sides Blue buff bush. Blue buff wins mid lane more than damn near anything else. If your team steals theirs while your mid lane gets their blue around 7ish minutes in your mid lane has a huge advantage. The support has the best chance of getting this ward into place, also note if you are winning and pushing under enemy turret, prepping for a dive, it can give you a heads up if their jungler is sitting in their tribush ready to screw up your tower dive.
Purple side--Blue sides Red buff bush, similiar reasons as blue keeps tabs on enemy jungler provides vision of enemy buff and you are in the best position to place it.
Other importances
Pink wards--These are not just for dragon buff, they are also for counter warding in general. Knowing ahead of time where your jungler is going to come from and clearing the ward allowing him to get in is huge. It isn't the junglers fault if he doesn't gank your lane, it's your responsiblity to make a gank in bot lane possible. There is a reason everytime I back I try to set up my items so I have at least 2 pinks, and it's not coincidence that most of the time we win the lane after we get a gank from our jungler. Don't underestimate the importance of counter warding.
As I said the Sightstones are awesome but they will not provide everything that you really need, and a single ward in addition to it isn't going to do it either. Keep in mind the more wards you buy the longer your bot lane can stay in lane. If you have 4 from your sightstone, 2 pinks and 2 regular wards, you have 8 minutes worth of wards, if you are only covering your tri+bush location and 2 potential counter wards. If you come to lane with 4 sightstone wards +1, 7 and a half minutes of the same ward coverage and no potential to counter ward me. Keep in mind your time will drop and mine will increase based on how well I can place those pinks to both provide coverage while countering your wards. If you choose to stay out and farm without ward coverage I will call for a gank and force you out of lane, at the least, at which point we will make you lose multiple waves of CS.
This is how wards win bot lane, and sightstone+1 is never enough.
In other news, volibear is so dumb with the changes to randuins and warmogs. Get those and phage and you literally stand in fights and pick up doubles (actually got a quadra at baron). That game i had had to 2v1 against a jax jarvan top. I'm calling him a little better this season (that or I just never knew how to play him)
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Other area's that can easily help your team snowball...
Blue side--Purple sides Blue buff bush. Blue buff wins mid lane more than damn near anything else. If your team steals theirs while your mid lane gets their blue around 7ish minutes in your mid lane has a huge advantage. The support has the best chance of getting this ward into place, also note if you are winning and pushing under enemy turret, prepping for a dive, it can give you a heads up if their jungler is sitting in their tribush ready to screw up your tower dive.
Purple side--Blue sides Red buff bush, similiar reasons as blue keeps tabs on enemy jungler provides vision of enemy buff and you are in the best position to place it.
Other importances
Pink wards--These are not just for dragon buff, they are also for counter warding in general. Knowing ahead of time where your jungler is going to come from and clearing the ward allowing him to get in is huge. It isn't the junglers fault if he doesn't gank your lane, it's your responsiblity to make a gank in bot lane possible. There is a reason everytime I back I try to set up my items so I have at least 2 pinks, and it's not coincidence that most of the time we win the lane after we get a gank from our jungler. Don't underestimate the importance of counter warding.
As I said the Sightstones are awesome but they will not provide everything that you really need, and a single ward in addition to it isn't going to do it either. Keep in mind the more wards you buy the longer your bot lane can stay in lane. If you have 4 from your sightstone, 2 pinks and 2 regular wards, you have 8 minutes worth of wards, if you are only covering your tri+bush location and 2 potential counter wards. If you come to lane with 4 sightstone wards +1, 7 and a half minutes of the same ward coverage and no potential to counter ward me. Keep in mind your time will drop and mine will increase based on how well I can place those pinks to both provide coverage while countering your wards. If you choose to stay out and farm without ward coverage I will call for a gank and force you out of lane, at the least, at which point we will make you lose multiple waves of CS.
This is how wards win bot lane, and sightstone+1 is never enough.
Well as the job of the support, you have certain places to go ward. I never mentioned the jungler and now that you're talking buffs then I believe the jungler is responsible for warding those (meta-game junglers like maokai generally should buy sightstone). In fact, I might argue that the mid can buy a ward that can be placed at certain locations that tells the player when to "steal" the buffs.
Yes I know what counterwarding is, I know what it can do. However, I firmly believe that with snowball lanes like top and even mid, bot should be last in priority or it is bot's job to "win the lane" by themselves. Well placed wards by the support at bot deter the enemy jungler which in turn wastes their time. A jungle gank is helpful, but in my experience, you don't need it to win the lane.
I also understand flexibility. If you buy pinks which are more expensive, I can buy a couple extra wards and place them in other sub-optimal areas but still catch ganks that people like you call for. I can tell you that i've wasted plenty of the jungler's time because people think they've outsmarted me in the warding game.
Also keep in mind that all the money you spend on wards turns most supports into liabilities. If you're squishy and all you buy wards, i'm pretty sure I don't need a jungler to kill you. You place too much burden on junglers, just win the lane with your adc. If you can't, you might as well tower hug and send your jungler to mid or top in hopes of having them snow ball.
In other news, volibear is so dumb with the changes to randuins and warmogs. Get those and phage and you literally stand in fights and pick up doubles (actually got a quadra at baron). That game i had had to 2v1 against a jax jarvan top. I'm calling him a little better this season (that or I just never knew how to play him)
Cool, I might try this champ once again.
Is he viable in the top spot right now? Or he is still getting crushed by other champs and should just go to jungle instead.
Well as the job of the support, you have certain places to go ward. I never mentioned the jungler and now that you're talking buffs then I believe the jungler is responsible for warding those (meta-game junglers like maokai generally should buy sightstone). In fact, I might argue that the mid can buy a ward that can be placed at certain locations that tells the player when to "steal" the buffs.
Yes I know what counterwarding is, I know what it can do. However, I firmly believe that with snowball lanes like top and even mid, bot should be last in priority or it is bot's job to "win the lane" by themselves. Well placed wards by the support at bot deter the enemy jungler which in turn wastes their time. A jungle gank is helpful, but in my experience, you don't need it to win the lane.
I also understand flexibility. If you buy pinks which are more expensive, I can buy a couple extra wards and place them in other sub-optimal areas but still catch ganks that people like you call for. I can tell you that i've wasted plenty of the jungler's time because people think they've outsmarted me in the warding game.
Also keep in mind that all the money you spend on wards turns most supports into liabilities. If you're squishy and all you buy wards, i'm pretty sure I don't need a jungler to kill you. You place too much burden on junglers, just win the lane with your adc. If you can't, you might as well tower hug and send your jungler to mid or top in hopes of having them snow ball.
You seem to completely misunderstand jungling as it pertains to bot lane and counter warding. You also forget some places don't have "suboptimal" spots to counter ward, if say for example I counterward bot lane bush and we push the lane so our jungler can gank through lane, you don't have another spot you need that ward in that bush, not trying to place it in the middle of the lane to get vision of it won't work as proper placement of the pink ward in the bush will cover every potential area that you could ward in order to see our jungler enter the bush.
Also note most of your suboptimal spots are also detectable by proper placement of pinks. As many times as you wasted junglers time by catching them with wards, I've caused support to waste wards thinking they could hide them from me.
The idea that the jungler shouldn't touch bottom because mid and top exists or may need help is rather silly. While a jungler certaintly shouldn't spend as much time down there, under a normal situation, a simple gank at level 2 can be all that is needed for bot to completely win. This is why my first buys are 2 greens and a pink instead of the usual 3 greens I see many do. Even if we don't get this a properly set up tower dive with jungler support again doesn't have to get kills we simply get you out of lane and cause you to miss a few waves. 1 proper gank is all it takes and it's very easy to set up.
A final thing about counter warding, it isn't simply about setting up a gank. It's about denying vision in general. It creates a threat of jungler gank, roaming mids, buff steals, sneaking dragons, etc etc. Vision wins game simply by virtue of keeping your opponents blind. No matter who you are you know good and well the way you play your lane completely changes when you have no vision whether you get ganked or not.
As far as the job of the support it's their job to ward, and really is the main warder on the team. Now that doesn't mean others shouldn't they certainly should, but it does mean that you will be responsible for more than just warding your lane. Also note I have yet to actually have buying this amount of wards actually cost me anything in terms of items. In truth 90% of the time I'm ahead of other supports who buy less wards. Why? Because we win our lane harder and our team snowballs faster off the dominance of our map control. That isn't a coincidence.
Also I'll note that with the ADCs I play with often we don't need the ganks I've talked about, as unless we are just completely counter picked we tend to stomp hard. He also tends to buy wards which let's me focus even more to counter warding and less on simply having enough wards. Most of what I said above is how I play when I'm support PuGs and they need every damn thing possible to not fail miserably >.<
Sightstone is awesome on just about every jungle and support. It very quickly pays for itself, and you can move your wards around for free.
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You seem to completely misunderstand jungling as it pertains to bot lane and counter warding. You also forget some places don't have "suboptimal" spots to counter ward, if say for example I counterward bot lane bush and we push the lane so our jungler can gank through lane, you don't have another spot you need that ward in that bush, not trying to place it in the middle of the lane to get vision of it won't work as proper placement of the pink ward in the bush will cover every potential area that you could ward in order to see our jungler enter the bush.
Also note most of your suboptimal spots are also detectable by proper placement of pinks. As many times as you wasted junglers time by catching them with wards, I've caused support to waste wards thinking they could hide them from me.
If any support goes through that many lengths to counterward me. I'l call it a day and freeze the lane. The jungler is welcome to attempt a dive and I normally pick a support with some form of cc. Unless the enemy jungler has a death wish or is suicidal, he is just wasting his time and the support is just wasting his money
The idea that the jungler shouldn't touch bottom because mid and top exists or may need help is rather silly. While a jungler certaintly shouldn't spend as much time down there, under a normal situation, a simple gank at level 2 can be all that is needed for bot to completely win. This is why my first buys are 2 greens and a pink instead of the usual 3 greens I see many do. Even if we don't get this a properly set up tower dive with jungler support again doesn't have to get kills we simply get you out of lane and cause you to miss a few waves. 1 proper gank is all it takes and it's very easy to set up.
Level 2 ganks in season 2 were obvious to spot, Lee Sin, Alistar, even Shyv. If I see any of those kinds of junglers, i'l place an early ward. Feel free to pink it, but then i'l just know what the jungler is attempting and respond accordingly.
Season 3 jungle doesn't really allow for level 2 ganks anymore
A final thing about counter warding, it isn't simply about setting up a gank. It's about denying vision in general. It creates a threat of jungler gank, roaming mids, buff steals, sneaking dragons, etc etc. Vision wins game simply by virtue of keeping your opponents blind. No matter who you are you know good and well the way you play your lane completely changes when you have no vision whether you get ganked or not.
Hence a pink ward at drag creates the threat of sneaking drag and roaming mid and jungler. One ward facilitating 3 different goals. I can spend 125g on that, and according to you, a one time deal can snow ball the lane hence I buy a pink and place it at drag.
As far as the job of the support it's their job to ward, and really is the main warder on the team. Now that doesn't mean others shouldn't they certainly should, but it does mean that you will be responsible for more than just warding your lane. Also note I have yet to actually have buying this amount of wards actually cost me anything in terms of items. In truth 90% of the time I'm ahead of other supports who buy less wards. Why? Because we win our lane harder and our team snowballs faster off the dominance of our map control. That isn't a coincidence.
If I have a good ADC, I can stomp with approximately 3 wards out. If i'm losing, i'm pretty damn sure I wouldn't spend more money on wards other than the absolute necessity.
Also I'll note that with the ADCs I play with often we don't need the ganks I've talked about, as unless we are just completely counter picked we tend to stomp hard. He also tends to buy wards which let's me focus even more to counter warding and less on simply having enough wards. Most of what I said above is how I play when I'm support PuGs and they need every damn thing possible to not fail miserably >.<
If you're playing with people like that, freeze the lane and tell your jungler to gank another lane. Bot lane priority is to outfarm, that can be done under tower. You can save yourself some money for some decent support items in both season 2 and 3
I just had a ranked game where an opposing Yorick raged that I was playing a cheap hero that had too much poke and sustain O.o... Like yea, he got counter picked by a Vlad, but seriously how can you complain about a mana bar when you're clearly out damaging me and I'm just running around without engaging while I chunk you so that I don't just get owned until you're low enough for me to dive you... And even though you're far behind I have to wait forever to attempt to kill you.
Edit: Also, Nami is by far one of the funnest Supports to play, you can harass all day and not lose any health. There are a lot of ways of beating her with picks, but boy is she fun to play. In a lot of ways she's like Lulu, one of my favorite champions to play, but does the same stuff more efficiently in a lot of cases.
If any support goes through that many lengths to counterward me. I'l call it a day and freeze the lane. The jungler is welcome to attempt a dive and I normally pick a support with some form of cc. Unless the enemy jungler has a death wish or is suicidal, he is just wasting his time and the support is just wasting his money
"That many lengths" really? Knowing where to place a pink to get the most out of it is considered "many lengths?" In my book that's common knowledge all support should have. It's like being on blue side and knowing the exact rock you can place a ward on to get vision of dragon and see up the blue buff ramp a short distance. Knowing where to place you ward to get the maximum effect doesn't involve any kind of inconvience to the support placing them.
As far as freezing your lane you seem to think we will let you freeze it. It's very easy to force it to push, we start a small fight with you and force you to attack us near the minions while wear near the brush. As a result of this our minions will spend more time attacking you than yours will attacking us. This will result in your minions killing ours faster and enable the wave to push towards our turret. Lane manipulation is something we've gotten rather good at, you won't freeze it unless we let you.
Level 2 ganks in season 2 were obvious to spot, Lee Sin, Alistar, even Shyv. If I see any of those kinds of junglers, i'l place an early ward. Feel free to pink it, but then i'l just know what the jungler is attempting and respond accordingly.
Feel free to place that early ward, based on what you said you would be placing it outside your tri-bush as blue side to cover river. I'll be taking the path through your jungle via the wraith entrance and say high. With the new change to that ramp your jungler can be doing wraiths and he still won't see me, and your mid won't have it warded this early in the game.
Season 3 jungle doesn't really allow for level 2 ganks anymore
Strange because so far the only game that I have jungled in which I didn't pull off a successful lvl 2 gank involved my Nocturne getting invaded. This mentality that S3 jungle means no more level two ganks have only made it so much easier to pull it off.
Hence a pink ward at drag creates the threat of sneaking drag and roaming mid and jungler. One ward facilitating 3 different goals. I can spend 125g on that, and according to you, a one time deal can snow ball the lane hence I buy a pink and place it at drag.
Um that ward won't catch all those things, namely because if they know what they are doing they won't take dragon path. They will go down through your wraiths and through tri. Based on the ward positions you gave earlier you wouldn't have it properly warded and you would be caught very easily. The pink is to protect dragon, it has the bonus of catching people who pick bad paths to gank but it's rare it will do much more than that.
If I have a good ADC, I can stomp with approximately 3 wards out. If i'm losing, i'm pretty damn sure I wouldn't spend more money on wards other than the absolute necessity.
Actually when you are losing is when it is even more important for you to counter ward. It's the counter warding that will allow for someone to come down, gank your lane and help balance it to get you caught up. If you continue to let them dominate map control you will never catch up unless they make a horrible mistake.
If you're playing with people like that, freeze the lane and tell your jungler to gank another lane. Bot lane priority is to outfarm, that can be done under tower. You can save yourself some money for some decent support items in both season 2 and 3
You are stuck several patches ago. Back when Sona/Soraka/Janna where the top supports and farming was king. Now it's about aggressiveness, and properly getting your adc fed. The exception to this is when you are heavily countered and simply need to get through the lane without feeding.
"That many lengths" really? Knowing where to place a pink to get the most out of it is considered "many lengths?" In my book that's common knowledge all support should have. It's like being on blue side and knowing the exact rock you can place a ward on to get vision of dragon and see up the blue buff ramp a short distance. Knowing where to place you ward to get the maximum effect doesn't involve any kind of inconvience to the support placing them.
Counterwarding a sub optimal ward location is going great lengths, after all, the ward location is sub optimal for a reason
As far as freezing your lane you seem to think we will let you freeze it. It's very easy to force it to push, we start a small fight with you and force you to attack us near the minions while wear near the brush. As a result of this our minions will spend more time attacking you than yours will attacking us. This will result in your minions killing ours faster and enable the wave to push towards our turret. Lane manipulation is something we've gotten rather good at, you won't freeze it unless we let you.
who said anything about counter attacking. If we don't attack, we don't draw creep aggro. If we stand close enough to the tower, the only reasonable way of hitting us from a distance that is safe is via skills that generally eat up mana unless you're caitlyn in which case there are some counters like sivir
Feel free to place that early ward, based on what you said you would be placing it outside your tri-bush as blue side to cover river. I'll be taking the path through your jungle via the wraith entrance and say high. With the new change to that ramp your jungler can be doing wraiths and he still won't see me, and your mid won't have it warded this early in the game.
Actually, i'd put it in tribush, season 2 or 3. I find that they attempt to go through the back more often than you think. Especially the Alistar players. Too risky to go through river because the risk-reward of a failed level 2 gank at bot is too costly if failed
Strange because so far the only game that I have jungled in which I didn't pull off a successful lvl 2 gank involved my Nocturne getting invaded. This mentality that S3 jungle means no more level two ganks have only made it so much easier to pull it off.
Its more rare to have level 2 ganks, doesn't mean there isn't any, like I said, the risk-reward of failing a level 2 gank is just way too harsh on the jungler.
Um that ward won't catch all those things, namely because if they know what they are doing they won't take dragon path. They will go down through your wraiths and through tri. Based on the ward positions you gave earlier you wouldn't have it properly warded and you would be caught very easily. The pink is to protect dragon, it has the bonus of catching people who pick bad paths to gank but it's rare it will do much more than that.
I have wraiths warded, or my mid, or my jungler would've done it
Actually when you are losing is when it is even more important for you to counter ward. It's the counter warding that will allow for someone to come down, gank your lane and help balance it to get you caught up. If you continue to let them dominate map control you will never catch up unless they make a horrible mistake.
Or that time could be spent helping another lane snow ball. Bot lane doesn't snowball nearly as hard as other lanes. Unless bot lane is actively feeding, getting that balance isn't very difficult if its just behind in cs. Now top and mid on the other hand...
You are stuck several patches ago. Back when Sona/Soraka/Janna where the top supports and farming was king. Now it's about aggressiveness, and properly getting your adc fed. The exception to this is when you are heavily countered and simply need to get through the lane without feeding.
So what's the problem in having your jungler spoon feed your top and mid and have them come down to bot? Most top/mid laners can take on an unfed adc and squishy support
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I always go for Liandry's Torment, of course, but Iceborn is such a killer item and I think it adds a lot to her burst while also giving great armor and a aoe slow for teamfights.
Thinking Liandry's, sorc shoes, Iceborn, Rylais, Abyssal, Hourglass as a general build with no particular order in mind yet.
Just had my first S3 jungle Elise game and it was awesome. Friends gave me a smiteless blue and I coasted from there. I ended up building Liandry's Torment, sightstone, Iceborn Gauntlet, Abyssal Scepter, Sorc boots.
It was a close back and forth game, love those.
Not as much as you might think. It does help but in the end you want far more ward coverage than you can achieve with 2-3 wards, depending on the sight stone you have. You will also want pinks for counter warding, as well as covering dragon and baron with.
The sightstones help but realisticly you should still be investing plenty in regular wards even after buying those.
Its conditional but its better than frozen heart on her which I used to build on her to counter ad.
No need for hourglass imo on elise, the 100 ap is meh.
A full elise build for me would be like sorc shoes, iceborn, rylias, abyssal, voidstaff, and a liandry's. I don't bother stacking ap with her because her scaling is meh and her q damage is percent base. Stacking magic pen keeps her from falling off lategame to enemy team getting mr from ruinic bulwark or counterbuilding you.
If I were to list what stats I find good elise it would be
magpen
cdr
mr/armor
ap
any ap I get from items is cool and all but tbh I just want to stack magpen and get full cdr on her. She doesn't need anything else for her damage.
My build for top lane Elise has been looking like this post Season 3:
Sorceror's Shoes -> Haunting Guise -> Abyssal Scepter/Frozen Heart (depending on which I need first) -> Guardian Angel -> Liandry's Torment -> Spirit Visage
Elise doesn't actually need AP to be insane. All of her damage is from her base amounts and her magic penetration, so you can just build her as tanky as you possibly want while still destroying everyone in lane and still doing well post the laning phase.
See but the thing is, as a support, you rarely leave the bottom portion of the map until late mid to late game, having those 2-3 wards takes you well into late game when you upgrade it and buy a couple extra wards to supplement.
If you know where to ward, those 2-3 wards can save you alot of money. The key is knowing where to place the ward to maximize ward coverage. I've played enough support to know where to ward on both sides of the map and honestly, it pretty much runs like this
Purple side
1. Spot directly to the right of tribush (covers river and tribush ganks)
1a. Switch to drag towards the end of laning phase to account for dragon coverage)
2. Bot bushes (depending on aggressiveness of both sides + teleport ganks)
3. mid wraiths (if your mid is too lazy)
Blue side
1. Tribush/mid wraiths (either will catch jungler coming in for the back gank)
2. Dragon (river gank + dragon coverage)
3. bot bushes (see above)
I can't really justify any other warding locations for laning phase so adding it all up, its about 1 extra ward every trip back with your sightstone being refilled, and it is within this phase that you save all that money for late game.
Having pink on the other hand, is completely different, normally getting pink is for one of two reasons, drag or baron. I might buy one pink for drag during mid laning phase to possibly allow for early drag or let the jungler gank. By the time baron rolls around, your team should have an oracles making pink wards not as useful because the other team will most likely have oracles especially on a near built tank.
In the games i've played, instead of buying 3 wards on the trip back, i've bought 1 which saves me 150 g per trip. Honestly, there really isn't a reason for any supports to not get a sightstone.
Quick 2v1 Guide
A thing to get used to is the 2v1 lane. This is becoming more muuuuuch commonplace.
Pretty much the 2v1 sets up a suicide lane like in Dota. Here's an article about it:
http://www.team-dignitas.net/articles/blogs/DotA/1183/Dota-2-Surviving-the-Suicide-Lane
- You just need to get the jist of what happens during this.
Example from today:
The 2v1 lanes start at champion select. Today in CRS v. TSM, Voyboy picked Elise. Voyboy's Elise wrecks face. TSM counted this pick by picking Jayce and swapping lanes.
Elise was forced to lane against Ezreal and Lulu (iirc... doesn't matter). Oddone was on Maokai. Oddone went Blue->Red->Gank top.
This created at 3v1 scenario. TSM attempted the gank, but Voy predicted it and got away safely. Voy's CS was 15.
In bottom Jayce was 2v1ing Cait/Nunu (iirc). Jayce's CS was 43 when Voy had to run for his life.
TSM took top turret, and Elise was effectively out of the game.
What roles should do to improve:
AD/Support/Jungle - Learn to dive at very low levels. Be able to tag out aggro and know how much you can take and dish out.
Jungle - Know when to both gank and protect your 2v1'd guy from this kind of gank. A 3v1 is rough on both sides. A 3v2 tower dive does not work.
Top - God speed. Pick champs dependent both on your matchup, but also communicate with your team. A 2v1 can turn a terrible pick into a great one.
Mid - A 3v1 gank top is good. A 4v1 gank is a kill. (Koreans do this frequently too)
Notes:
Good 2v1 champs - Cho (sustain), Jayce (ranged waveclear + mobility), Gragas (mobility + ranged waveclear), Irelia (irelia...). Olaf (waveclear, dangerous)
I've been thinking about other good 2v1 champs, and I think other good ones would include possibly Galio, Vlad, Kennan and Nidalee.
Other area's that can easily help your team snowball...
Blue side--Purple sides Blue buff bush. Blue buff wins mid lane more than damn near anything else. If your team steals theirs while your mid lane gets their blue around 7ish minutes in your mid lane has a huge advantage. The support has the best chance of getting this ward into place, also note if you are winning and pushing under enemy turret, prepping for a dive, it can give you a heads up if their jungler is sitting in their tribush ready to screw up your tower dive.
Purple side--Blue sides Red buff bush, similiar reasons as blue keeps tabs on enemy jungler provides vision of enemy buff and you are in the best position to place it.
Other importances
Pink wards--These are not just for dragon buff, they are also for counter warding in general. Knowing ahead of time where your jungler is going to come from and clearing the ward allowing him to get in is huge. It isn't the junglers fault if he doesn't gank your lane, it's your responsiblity to make a gank in bot lane possible. There is a reason everytime I back I try to set up my items so I have at least 2 pinks, and it's not coincidence that most of the time we win the lane after we get a gank from our jungler. Don't underestimate the importance of counter warding.
As I said the Sightstones are awesome but they will not provide everything that you really need, and a single ward in addition to it isn't going to do it either. Keep in mind the more wards you buy the longer your bot lane can stay in lane. If you have 4 from your sightstone, 2 pinks and 2 regular wards, you have 8 minutes worth of wards, if you are only covering your tri+bush location and 2 potential counter wards. If you come to lane with 4 sightstone wards +1, 7 and a half minutes of the same ward coverage and no potential to counter ward me. Keep in mind your time will drop and mine will increase based on how well I can place those pinks to both provide coverage while countering your wards. If you choose to stay out and farm without ward coverage I will call for a gank and force you out of lane, at the least, at which point we will make you lose multiple waves of CS.
This is how wards win bot lane, and sightstone+1 is never enough.
Well as the job of the support, you have certain places to go ward. I never mentioned the jungler and now that you're talking buffs then I believe the jungler is responsible for warding those (meta-game junglers like maokai generally should buy sightstone). In fact, I might argue that the mid can buy a ward that can be placed at certain locations that tells the player when to "steal" the buffs.
Yes I know what counterwarding is, I know what it can do. However, I firmly believe that with snowball lanes like top and even mid, bot should be last in priority or it is bot's job to "win the lane" by themselves. Well placed wards by the support at bot deter the enemy jungler which in turn wastes their time. A jungle gank is helpful, but in my experience, you don't need it to win the lane.
I also understand flexibility. If you buy pinks which are more expensive, I can buy a couple extra wards and place them in other sub-optimal areas but still catch ganks that people like you call for. I can tell you that i've wasted plenty of the jungler's time because people think they've outsmarted me in the warding game.
Also keep in mind that all the money you spend on wards turns most supports into liabilities. If you're squishy and all you buy wards, i'm pretty sure I don't need a jungler to kill you. You place too much burden on junglers, just win the lane with your adc. If you can't, you might as well tower hug and send your jungler to mid or top in hopes of having them snow ball.
Cool, I might try this champ once again.
Is he viable in the top spot right now? Or he is still getting crushed by other champs and should just go to jungle instead.
(Stacking BC on bruisers is op btw)
EDH: Xenagos, God of Revels.
You seem to completely misunderstand jungling as it pertains to bot lane and counter warding. You also forget some places don't have "suboptimal" spots to counter ward, if say for example I counterward bot lane bush and we push the lane so our jungler can gank through lane, you don't have another spot you need that ward in that bush, not trying to place it in the middle of the lane to get vision of it won't work as proper placement of the pink ward in the bush will cover every potential area that you could ward in order to see our jungler enter the bush.
Also note most of your suboptimal spots are also detectable by proper placement of pinks. As many times as you wasted junglers time by catching them with wards, I've caused support to waste wards thinking they could hide them from me.
The idea that the jungler shouldn't touch bottom because mid and top exists or may need help is rather silly. While a jungler certaintly shouldn't spend as much time down there, under a normal situation, a simple gank at level 2 can be all that is needed for bot to completely win. This is why my first buys are 2 greens and a pink instead of the usual 3 greens I see many do. Even if we don't get this a properly set up tower dive with jungler support again doesn't have to get kills we simply get you out of lane and cause you to miss a few waves. 1 proper gank is all it takes and it's very easy to set up.
A final thing about counter warding, it isn't simply about setting up a gank. It's about denying vision in general. It creates a threat of jungler gank, roaming mids, buff steals, sneaking dragons, etc etc. Vision wins game simply by virtue of keeping your opponents blind. No matter who you are you know good and well the way you play your lane completely changes when you have no vision whether you get ganked or not.
As far as the job of the support it's their job to ward, and really is the main warder on the team. Now that doesn't mean others shouldn't they certainly should, but it does mean that you will be responsible for more than just warding your lane. Also note I have yet to actually have buying this amount of wards actually cost me anything in terms of items. In truth 90% of the time I'm ahead of other supports who buy less wards. Why? Because we win our lane harder and our team snowballs faster off the dominance of our map control. That isn't a coincidence.
Also I'll note that with the ADCs I play with often we don't need the ganks I've talked about, as unless we are just completely counter picked we tend to stomp hard. He also tends to buy wards which let's me focus even more to counter warding and less on simply having enough wards. Most of what I said above is how I play when I'm support PuGs and they need every damn thing possible to not fail miserably >.<
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Ashcoat Bear of Limited
If any support goes through that many lengths to counterward me. I'l call it a day and freeze the lane. The jungler is welcome to attempt a dive and I normally pick a support with some form of cc. Unless the enemy jungler has a death wish or is suicidal, he is just wasting his time and the support is just wasting his money
Level 2 ganks in season 2 were obvious to spot, Lee Sin, Alistar, even Shyv. If I see any of those kinds of junglers, i'l place an early ward. Feel free to pink it, but then i'l just know what the jungler is attempting and respond accordingly.
Season 3 jungle doesn't really allow for level 2 ganks anymore
Hence a pink ward at drag creates the threat of sneaking drag and roaming mid and jungler. One ward facilitating 3 different goals. I can spend 125g on that, and according to you, a one time deal can snow ball the lane hence I buy a pink and place it at drag.
If I have a good ADC, I can stomp with approximately 3 wards out. If i'm losing, i'm pretty damn sure I wouldn't spend more money on wards other than the absolute necessity.
If you're playing with people like that, freeze the lane and tell your jungler to gank another lane. Bot lane priority is to outfarm, that can be done under tower. You can save yourself some money for some decent support items in both season 2 and 3
Edit: Also, Nami is by far one of the funnest Supports to play, you can harass all day and not lose any health. There are a lot of ways of beating her with picks, but boy is she fun to play. In a lot of ways she's like Lulu, one of my favorite champions to play, but does the same stuff more efficiently in a lot of cases.
"That many lengths" really? Knowing where to place a pink to get the most out of it is considered "many lengths?" In my book that's common knowledge all support should have. It's like being on blue side and knowing the exact rock you can place a ward on to get vision of dragon and see up the blue buff ramp a short distance. Knowing where to place you ward to get the maximum effect doesn't involve any kind of inconvience to the support placing them.
As far as freezing your lane you seem to think we will let you freeze it. It's very easy to force it to push, we start a small fight with you and force you to attack us near the minions while wear near the brush. As a result of this our minions will spend more time attacking you than yours will attacking us. This will result in your minions killing ours faster and enable the wave to push towards our turret. Lane manipulation is something we've gotten rather good at, you won't freeze it unless we let you.
Feel free to place that early ward, based on what you said you would be placing it outside your tri-bush as blue side to cover river. I'll be taking the path through your jungle via the wraith entrance and say high. With the new change to that ramp your jungler can be doing wraiths and he still won't see me, and your mid won't have it warded this early in the game.
Strange because so far the only game that I have jungled in which I didn't pull off a successful lvl 2 gank involved my Nocturne getting invaded. This mentality that S3 jungle means no more level two ganks have only made it so much easier to pull it off.
Um that ward won't catch all those things, namely because if they know what they are doing they won't take dragon path. They will go down through your wraiths and through tri. Based on the ward positions you gave earlier you wouldn't have it properly warded and you would be caught very easily. The pink is to protect dragon, it has the bonus of catching people who pick bad paths to gank but it's rare it will do much more than that.
Actually when you are losing is when it is even more important for you to counter ward. It's the counter warding that will allow for someone to come down, gank your lane and help balance it to get you caught up. If you continue to let them dominate map control you will never catch up unless they make a horrible mistake.
You are stuck several patches ago. Back when Sona/Soraka/Janna where the top supports and farming was king. Now it's about aggressiveness, and properly getting your adc fed. The exception to this is when you are heavily countered and simply need to get through the lane without feeding.
Counterwarding a sub optimal ward location is going great lengths, after all, the ward location is sub optimal for a reason
who said anything about counter attacking. If we don't attack, we don't draw creep aggro. If we stand close enough to the tower, the only reasonable way of hitting us from a distance that is safe is via skills that generally eat up mana unless you're caitlyn in which case there are some counters like sivir
Actually, i'd put it in tribush, season 2 or 3. I find that they attempt to go through the back more often than you think. Especially the Alistar players. Too risky to go through river because the risk-reward of a failed level 2 gank at bot is too costly if failed
Its more rare to have level 2 ganks, doesn't mean there isn't any, like I said, the risk-reward of failing a level 2 gank is just way too harsh on the jungler.
I have wraiths warded, or my mid, or my jungler would've done it
Or that time could be spent helping another lane snow ball. Bot lane doesn't snowball nearly as hard as other lanes. Unless bot lane is actively feeding, getting that balance isn't very difficult if its just behind in cs. Now top and mid on the other hand...
So what's the problem in having your jungler spoon feed your top and mid and have them come down to bot? Most top/mid laners can take on an unfed adc and squishy support