I've read that heaven is just a place where there is joy, no pain and suffering, and you are always worshiping God. But why does an omnipotent, all loving God want us to worship him? I know he wants a family, but we don't worship our parents. Isn't there a way to love Him without worshiping Him?
I've read that heaven is just a place where there is joy, no pain and suffering, and you are always worshiping God. But why does an omnipotent, all loving God want us to worship him? I know he wants a family, but we don't worship our parents. Isn't there a way to love Him without worshiping Him?
Well, let’s look at what it would be like if religions didn’t require worship. Keep in mind the most important thing in, say, Christianity is that you never forsake the Holy Ghost. All else can be forgiven except for not believing. This is a good rule if you intend to keep people coming into the church, and giving the church money.
So what if people didn’t have to worship an all powerful deity with the power to smite them down? They’d find something else to do with their Sundays, and churches would die. I believe requiring worship is a positively selected idea that has been shown to keep people in the church, and money flowing.
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Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
Interesting question. Here's what I think. You are right on the money when it comes to the analogy of parenthood and family, God does treat us like we're his children. But analogies always break down at some point. Here it the fact that our human parents are exactly like us in nature, they're just older. Parents and children are still both human, and can't be anything else. God is not a flesh-and-blood human being by nature (the nature of Jesus is a deep and mysterious theological exploration that we don't have space for here). Assuming God really is the omniscient, omnipotent, all-loving creator of the universe, then that changes the parent-child relationship from what we currently understand. For God to say "I'm the most perfect being in all existence," or "You humans can't understand why I'm doing this, but I'm doing it for your benefit," is no different than me saying "I have red hair," (which I do, by the way). If such a God truly cares about the well-being of humans in general and each particular human in particular, then being omniscient and omnipotent, he would know that the act of giving worship is not for his benefit (he needs nothing, anyway), but for ours.
Actually, I could go on for days on this (theology is a passion of mine), especially seeing how this issue can get real deep real fast, but I think that's a good starting point. Does it make sense to you, or am I just rambling?
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A polite player might call my card choices "interesting." At my budget, "interesting" is the only option.
I've read that heaven is just a place where there is joy, no pain and suffering, and you are always worshiping God. But why does an omnipotent, all loving God want us to worship him? I know he wants a family, but we don't worship our parents. Isn't there a way to love Him without worshiping Him?
Well, let’s look at what it would be like if religions didn’t require worship. Keep in mind the most important thing in, say, Christianity is that you never forsake the Holy Ghost. All else can be forgiven except for not believing. This is a good rule if you intend to keep people coming into the church, and giving the church money.
So what if people didn’t have to worship an all powerful deity with the power to smite them down? They’d find something else to do with their Sundays, and churches would die. I believe requiring worship is a positively selected idea that has been shown to keep people in the church, and money flowing.
And yet that doesn't explain the radical changes in perspective and behaviour of a massive number of people of faith (believe me, many psychologists have tried, and they all resort to some pretty weird theories that get difficult to substantiate). Doesn't explain the miracles either.
My wife had severe arthritis in her hips since she was a child. X-rays, CAT scans, and several doctors confirmed that there was simply no cartilage left in her hip joints, it was all gone. She lived like that for over ten years. One day in church, a man noticed my wife limping on a particularly painful day. He asked if he could pray for her, and when he did, she instantly lost all the pain. My wife, having had many medical problems thought it might have been psychosomatic pain relief, so she asked her doctor to check out her hips again. Same battery of X-Rays, CAT scans and second opinions came back: she has normal cartilage in her hips. If you can, explain that. I can't.
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A polite player might call my card choices "interesting." At my budget, "interesting" is the only option.
I've read that heaven is just a place where there is joy, no pain and suffering, and you are always worshiping God. But why does an omnipotent, all loving God want us to worship him? I know he wants a family, but we don't worship our parents. Isn't there a way to love Him without worshiping Him?
The answer that I like is that God wants us to worship Her not for God's ego, but so that we remember God as we go through the plight of life. And I'm sure that there is a way to love God without worshiping him, but that requires us to settle on a definition of both "worship" and "love."
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Interesting question. Here's what I think. You are right on the money when it comes to the analogy of parenthood and family, God does treat us like we're his children. But analogies always break down at some point. Here it the fact that our human parents are exactly like us in nature, they're just older. Parents and children are still both human, and can't be anything else. God is not a flesh-and-blood human being by nature (the nature of Jesus is a deep and mysterious theological exploration that we don't have space for here). Assuming God really is the omniscient, omnipotent, all-loving creator of the universe, then that changes the parent-child relationship from what we currently understand. For God to say "I'm the most perfect being in all existence," or "You humans can't understand why I'm doing this, but I'm doing it for your benefit," is no different than me saying "I have red hair," (which I do, by the way). If such a God truly cares about the well-being of humans in general and each particular human in particular, then being omniscient and omnipotent, he would know that the act of giving worship is not for his benefit (he needs nothing, anyway), but for ours.
Actually, I could go on for days on this (theology is a passion of mine), especially seeing how this issue can get real deep real fast, but I think that's a good starting point. Does it make sense to you, or am I just rambling?
And yet that doesn't explain the radical changes in perspective and behaviour of a massive number of people of faith (believe me, many psychologists have tried, and they all resort to some pretty weird theories that get difficult to substantiate). Doesn't explain the miracles either.
And yet that doesn't explain the radical changes in perspective and behaviour of a massive number of people of faith (believe me, many psychologists have tried, and they all resort to some pretty weird theories that get difficult to substantiate). Doesn't explain the miracles either.
What miracles? The story you tell is nice and all. But something being difficult to understand (or the present perhaps impossible) doesn't make it a miracle in my book. There is an explanation for why things happen. If the search for answers rolled over on its back every time someone said "God did it" we would still be living in caves surviving as food for micro organisms.
Do you know why northern Europeans have light skin and Africans have dark skin? The answer used to be “God did it”, and to terrible consequence. Now we know why people from different parts of the world have different skin color. The argument you are making is called “God of the gaps”. Every time we make a new discovery it crosses off one of the gaps and this rational become weaker (and weaker and weaker). At some point a brilliant scientist might look at your wife’s case file and discover the reason why the events you describe happened. But I see no reason to jump up and say “MIRACLE!!!”
-----
Have you ever noticed the radical differences in perspective and behaviour of a massive number of people in general (the preposition phrase "of faith" is redundant)? This is not particular to religious people, or even human beings at all. What is the point of this statement?
Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
I've read that heaven is just a place where there is joy, no pain and suffering, and you are always worshiping God. But why does an omnipotent, all loving God want us to worship him? I know he wants a family, but we don't worship our parents. Isn't there a way to love Him without worshiping Him?
Are you entirely clear on what the word worship means? Worship is generally defined as reverence and devotion towards a deity or divine being. So no, you wouldn't worship your parents. You would worship God.
So, to answer your question, because God represents perfect love and perfect good. Recognizing this, oblation is the natural course.
Well, let’s look at what it would be like if religions didn’t require worship. Keep in mind the most important thing in, say, Christianity is that you never forsake the Holy Ghost. All else can be forgiven except for not believing.
And, depending on who you talk to, being homosexual. *Sigh*
This is a good rule if you intend to keep people coming into the church, and giving the church money.
So what if people didn’t have to worship an all powerful deity with the power to smite them down? They’d find something else to do with their Sundays, and churches would die. I believe requiring worship is a positively selected idea that has been shown to keep people in the church, and money flowing.
Conspiracy theories are fun, but do recognize that people have been worshiping things long before churches ever were.
Do you know why northern Europeans have light skin and Africans have dark skin? The answer used to be “God did it”, and to terrible consequence.
I don't like how you use this argument at all. Blaming God or even religious people for the evils of slavery is old hat and only marginally justifiable at best. I could use the same reasoning to blame Charles Darwin for the Holocost, or atheism for the 10 million victims of Soviet oppression. Just so you know, the one group of people responsible for more torture and murder of peaceful people who happened to believe in God are atheists (look at the ridiculously bloody history of Eurasian Communism, a self-proclaimed and dedicated atheist movement that specifically targeted religious groups). But that would be just as invalid a point as what you have made. All I say is that it is supremely arrogant of people in general to believe that everything in the universe can be explained by our current philosophy. That's exactly why early scientists like Galileo and Copernicus were so sorely persecuted, their ideas opened up the possibility for the established understanding of the universe to be wrong. Eventually the scientific community prevailed, and yes, we now have a greater understanding of the world. But we are now coming to a point where the scientific establishment is starting to become the oppressor themselves. When people propose ideas that fly in the face of the establishment (science now, instead of religion), they get the same passionately dismissive reaction that the Medieval Catholic church gave to the early scientists. I worry that history may repeat itself. Again.
As for miracles, not once did I say that they prove God or Christianity or anything of the like. I believe they are evidence of God, but proof is something else entirely. They do prove one thing to those who dogmatically insist on the modern interpretation of science, and Shakespeare said it better than I can: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." The universe is much bigger and more complex than any and all humans could ever understand.
I've read that heaven is just a place where there is joy, no pain and suffering, and you are always worshiping God. But why does an omnipotent, all loving God want us to worship him? I know he wants a family, but we don't worship our parents. Isn't there a way to love Him without worshiping Him?
Are you entirely clear on what the word worship means? Worship is generally defined as reverence and devotion towards a deity or divine being. So no, you wouldn't worship your parents. You would worship God.
So, to answer your question, because God represents perfect love and perfect good. Recognizing this, oblation is the natural course.
Well, let’s look at what it would be like if religions didn’t require worship. Keep in mind the most important thing in, say, Christianity is that you never forsake the Holy Ghost. All else can be forgiven except for not believing.
And, depending on who you talk to, being homosexual. *Sigh*
This is a good rule if you intend to keep people coming into the church, and giving the church money.
So what if people didn’t have to worship an all powerful deity with the power to smite them down? They’d find something else to do with their Sundays, and churches would die. I believe requiring worship is a positively selected idea that has been shown to keep people in the church, and money flowing.
Conspiracy theories are fun, but do recognize that people have been worshiping things long before churches ever were.
Of course we don't worship our parents. I made the analogy because God is our heavenly father and we are His children.
If we're presuming Ywwh in the Abrahamic tradition, probably just simply appreciation and bringing people into commune with everyone.
From an evolutionary point of view, the most collective and social individuals tend to prosper the most. So community and the like being wedded to many major religions is huge.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
This is one of the main criticisms surrounding theism. People from before Christianity have had these questions about different theism based religions. To answer this question with fact would either make theism true or make atheism true.
Much outside of the scope of this thread it ends up being a debate over does A GOD really exist in the sense that theist would have us believe, or does no god exist, or are deistic principles true.
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"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
As i understand it, the God of the OT is a jealous and egotistical being. Just look at the first 4 commandments, none of them are concerned with morality or how to improve society or even handy laws by which a society may be effectively governed, they all involve devotion to him and thinking he's great. So, in answer to the OP, the character of God demands worship because he is insecure, jealous and egotistical.
What benefit do you think God gets from these commandments? I think you have a very narrow understanding of the purpose of these commmandments.
There is no God, so I think the correct question is: Why did the people who constructed the various religions make it so critical that their followers worship and follow God without question?
There is no God, so I think the correct question is: Why did the people who constructed the various religions make it so critical that their followers worship and follow God without question?
As someone who has read the Bible, I question this assertion. If the book was designed to thwart questions, it was terribly written.
There is no God, so I think the correct question is: Why did the people who constructed the various religions make it so critical that their followers worship and follow God without question?
As someone who has read the Bible, I question this assertion. If the book was designed to thwart questions, it was terribly written.
Intent doesn't equal result.
I can intend to write a funniest new fall comedy, but the result might be the most unfunny show ever made.
There is no God, so I think the correct question is: Why did the people who constructed the various religions make it so critical that their followers worship and follow God without question?
As someone who has read the Bible, I question this assertion. If the book was designed to thwart questions, it was terribly written.
Intent doesn't equal result.
I can intend to write a funniest new fall comedy, but the result might be the most unfunny show ever made.
Intent appears to be germain to your assertion.
If I were to construct a religion, it would be very sexy. I would not write a book like the Bible, which actively encourages questioning religious authority, is regularly boring to read, and filled with all sort of rules about sex.
While I can agree that unquestioning faith is encouraged by many religious leaders, I question if that was the intent of its creators.
What benefit do you think God gets from these commandments? I think you have a very narrow understanding of the purpose of these commmandments.
I dont think God gets any benefit because he isn't real. However, within a literary context, I was pointing out the reason why the character of God in the bible requires worship appears to be that he is jealous and egotistical. My basis for this was in the ten commandments that he laid down to his chosen people, a significant number of these divine commandments centred around people worshipping and honouring him for being great. That sounds fairly self-centred and egotistical and more like a spoiled child than a supreme being.
I realize that is what it sounds like to some people, but I am stating that is one interpretation. Understand that other interpretations exist.
I taught my dog not to go into the street. He never understood why. I taught my kid not to go into the street, and eventually he did understand why. Not once did I ever resent my dog's obedience.
As someone who has read the Bible, I question this assertion. If the book was designed to thwart questions, it was terribly written.
The bible was never meant to be read by the common man. The church went to great lengths to make sure it was never translated into a language of the people. The dudes that wrote the bible didn't have to plan it out or make sure everything made sense because only they would know what the book said. This obviously didn't work out, and know we get to have debates about why the bible, as a book that is supposedly divinely inspired, has so many nonsensical ideas in it.
I realize that is what it sounds like to some people, but I am stating that is one interpretation. Understand that other interpretations exist.
I taught my dog not to go into the street. He never understood why. I taught my kid not to go into the street, and eventually he did understand why. Not once did I ever resent my dog's obedience.
If you're dog doesn't worship you, do you smite it down? If your puppy pees on the floor do you torture it?
The fact of the matter is in your world, God makes the rules. All the rules. Your God made up the rule that we must worship him, and only him. He decided that if you don't worship him, you get tortured for eternity. Instead of revealing himself to everyone so we all know he's there, he hides from billions of people that are never even introduced to the bible. And this makes sense to you? This doesn't sound like a totalitarian dictator to you?
Regardless of why, your God still at some point decided that anyone that didn't bow down to him was going to suffer for eternity. I'm sorry to say that I don't accept blind orders like that, particularly not when they come from a shame of book like the bible. To the observer it seems precisely like an ego driven lunatic.
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Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
Well, let’s look at what it would be like if religions didn’t require worship. Keep in mind the most important thing in, say, Christianity is that you never forsake the Holy Ghost. All else can be forgiven except for not believing. This is a good rule if you intend to keep people coming into the church, and giving the church money.
So what if people didn’t have to worship an all powerful deity with the power to smite them down? They’d find something else to do with their Sundays, and churches would die. I believe requiring worship is a positively selected idea that has been shown to keep people in the church, and money flowing.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
Actually, I could go on for days on this (theology is a passion of mine), especially seeing how this issue can get real deep real fast, but I think that's a good starting point. Does it make sense to you, or am I just rambling?
And yet that doesn't explain the radical changes in perspective and behaviour of a massive number of people of faith (believe me, many psychologists have tried, and they all resort to some pretty weird theories that get difficult to substantiate). Doesn't explain the miracles either.
The answer that I like is that God wants us to worship Her not for God's ego, but so that we remember God as we go through the plight of life. And I'm sure that there is a way to love God without worshiping him, but that requires us to settle on a definition of both "worship" and "love."
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
No, you're making sense. God does things for His benefit too. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2043:25;&version=NIV
I can see what you mean by how we benefit by worshiping God. I have a much more positive mindset from thanking God than I did a few years ago.
Which religion is that unique to?
What miracles? The story you tell is nice and all. But something being difficult to understand (or the present perhaps impossible) doesn't make it a miracle in my book. There is an explanation for why things happen. If the search for answers rolled over on its back every time someone said "God did it" we would still be living in caves surviving as food for micro organisms.
Do you know why northern Europeans have light skin and Africans have dark skin? The answer used to be “God did it”, and to terrible consequence. Now we know why people from different parts of the world have different skin color. The argument you are making is called “God of the gaps”. Every time we make a new discovery it crosses off one of the gaps and this rational become weaker (and weaker and weaker). At some point a brilliant scientist might look at your wife’s case file and discover the reason why the events you describe happened. But I see no reason to jump up and say “MIRACLE!!!”
-----
Have you ever noticed the radical differences in perspective and behaviour of a massive number of people in general (the preposition phrase "of faith" is redundant)? This is not particular to religious people, or even human beings at all. What is the point of this statement?
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
Are you entirely clear on what the word worship means? Worship is generally defined as reverence and devotion towards a deity or divine being. So no, you wouldn't worship your parents. You would worship God.
So, to answer your question, because God represents perfect love and perfect good. Recognizing this, oblation is the natural course.
And, depending on who you talk to, being homosexual. *Sigh*
Conspiracy theories are fun, but do recognize that people have been worshiping things long before churches ever were.
I don't like how you use this argument at all. Blaming God or even religious people for the evils of slavery is old hat and only marginally justifiable at best. I could use the same reasoning to blame Charles Darwin for the Holocost, or atheism for the 10 million victims of Soviet oppression. Just so you know, the one group of people responsible for more torture and murder of peaceful people who happened to believe in God are atheists (look at the ridiculously bloody history of Eurasian Communism, a self-proclaimed and dedicated atheist movement that specifically targeted religious groups). But that would be just as invalid a point as what you have made. All I say is that it is supremely arrogant of people in general to believe that everything in the universe can be explained by our current philosophy. That's exactly why early scientists like Galileo and Copernicus were so sorely persecuted, their ideas opened up the possibility for the established understanding of the universe to be wrong. Eventually the scientific community prevailed, and yes, we now have a greater understanding of the world. But we are now coming to a point where the scientific establishment is starting to become the oppressor themselves. When people propose ideas that fly in the face of the establishment (science now, instead of religion), they get the same passionately dismissive reaction that the Medieval Catholic church gave to the early scientists. I worry that history may repeat itself. Again.
As for miracles, not once did I say that they prove God or Christianity or anything of the like. I believe they are evidence of God, but proof is something else entirely. They do prove one thing to those who dogmatically insist on the modern interpretation of science, and Shakespeare said it better than I can: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." The universe is much bigger and more complex than any and all humans could ever understand.
Of course we don't worship our parents. I made the analogy because God is our heavenly father and we are His children.
And God is also God.
From an evolutionary point of view, the most collective and social individuals tend to prosper the most. So community and the like being wedded to many major religions is huge.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Much outside of the scope of this thread it ends up being a debate over does A GOD really exist in the sense that theist would have us believe, or does no god exist, or are deistic principles true.
Thomas Jefferson
Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823
What benefit do you think God gets from these commandments? I think you have a very narrow understanding of the purpose of these commmandments.
The answer, of course, is fairly obvious.
How To Keep Your FOIL Cards From Curling: http://youtu.be/QTmubrS8VnI
The Best Deck Boxes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEwgLph_Pjk
The Best Binders: http://youtu.be/H5IauASYWjk
As someone who has read the Bible, I question this assertion. If the book was designed to thwart questions, it was terribly written.
Intent doesn't equal result.
I can intend to write a funniest new fall comedy, but the result might be the most unfunny show ever made.
How To Keep Your FOIL Cards From Curling: http://youtu.be/QTmubrS8VnI
The Best Deck Boxes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEwgLph_Pjk
The Best Binders: http://youtu.be/H5IauASYWjk
Intent appears to be germain to your assertion.
If I were to construct a religion, it would be very sexy. I would not write a book like the Bible, which actively encourages questioning religious authority, is regularly boring to read, and filled with all sort of rules about sex.
While I can agree that unquestioning faith is encouraged by many religious leaders, I question if that was the intent of its creators.
I realize that is what it sounds like to some people, but I am stating that is one interpretation. Understand that other interpretations exist.
I taught my dog not to go into the street. He never understood why. I taught my kid not to go into the street, and eventually he did understand why. Not once did I ever resent my dog's obedience.
The bible was never meant to be read by the common man. The church went to great lengths to make sure it was never translated into a language of the people. The dudes that wrote the bible didn't have to plan it out or make sure everything made sense because only they would know what the book said. This obviously didn't work out, and know we get to have debates about why the bible, as a book that is supposedly divinely inspired, has so many nonsensical ideas in it.
If you're dog doesn't worship you, do you smite it down? If your puppy pees on the floor do you torture it?
The fact of the matter is in your world, God makes the rules. All the rules. Your God made up the rule that we must worship him, and only him. He decided that if you don't worship him, you get tortured for eternity. Instead of revealing himself to everyone so we all know he's there, he hides from billions of people that are never even introduced to the bible. And this makes sense to you? This doesn't sound like a totalitarian dictator to you?
Regardless of why, your God still at some point decided that anyone that didn't bow down to him was going to suffer for eternity. I'm sorry to say that I don't accept blind orders like that, particularly not when they come from a shame of book like the bible. To the observer it seems precisely like an ego driven lunatic.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
A better question might be - why was God invented as needing to be worshipped? Because you want your people obedient and the collection plates full.
My G Yisan, the Bard of Death G deck.
My BUGWR Hermit druid BUGWR deck.
Sasky for the Sig.
I am in your [PACK]. Watching you... do... something.