Hmm. While I'm optimistic about this election too, Hodoku, I would be careful about overconfidence. Our hubris lost us Congress 2 years ago, we can't afford to be complacent.
Hmm. While I'm optimistic about this election too, Hodoku, I would be careful about overconfidence. Our hubris lost us Congress 2 years ago, we can't afford to be complacent.
Fair enough, but I just don't see obama winning:
-He has NO idea on how to campaign. Hes outspent obama 5 to 2/3, and yet hes lost over 15 points in the polls.
-He is a liar and the american people know it. More and more are coming to terms with this decision and are making the intelligent choice.
-He really IS nothing but talk, and americans are getting sick of his slick, con-man style rhetoric.
-People are coming to realize that Obama IS one of the most liberal political figures in this country - and most americans really don't want that kind of twisted communisim.
-People are also sick of the media's bias - to quote Sean Hannity, "Journalisim is DEAD."
-Bradley Effect.
Among other points that I don't feel like making. He just seems like such a.. bad choice. If they had gone with someone moderate, maybe - but they chose the least electable candidate, while republicans chose their best. Though only time will tell, I'm fairly confident that I will be vindicated in this and I'll have the right to rub this into Obama sheep for the rest of time
EDIT:
What do you all think about McCain setting up shop in Cali? good idea or bad idea?
More edit:
Rassmuessen and two other polling groups show mccain up anywhere from 2-6 points on obama. The trend continues
Cool, I suppose equating mccain to bush makes a TOTALLY valid point - that is, you either are retarded, or you are being hand-fed democrat talking points (total lies, btw?).
Well there is a difference. For instance, on the Republican "Stupid or Evil?" scale (the only political scale that is useful when evaluating Republican candidates), Bush scores a net 90% Stupid/10% Evil, whereas McCain probably nets a good 20% Stupid/80% Evil. That's a huge difference!
But then, like everything else according to the Mainstream (GOP) Media, That's Good for John McCain!
Do not feed the troll, and especially don't feed it with another troll.
There is no way McCain is winning this election. Looking at the electoral map, Obama is far ahead in every state Kerry won except New Hampshire, and ahead of/ tied with/ slightly behind McCain in ~8 states that Kerry lost. If Obama wins one of these states, he wins the election.
There is no way McCain is winning this election. Looking at the electoral map, Obama is far ahead in every state Kerry won except New Hampshire, and ahead of/ tied with/ slightly behind McCain in ~8 states that Kerry lost. If Obama wins one of these states, he wins the election.
Orielly interview shows obama for the yammering idiot he is. People in battleground states watch him, and I'd almost be willing to bet that there is a notable swing in mccain's favor after the whole thing is over.
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Hodoku: Do you believe Sean Hannity and Bill O'reily to be unbiased journalists? You've spoken poorly about the "liberal media" before, so I just want to get an idea of what you think is balanced news.
Also, McCain is up by 2% in national polling, but still down in the electoral college. I guess he sort of has a lead. It's nothing to get excited about. Obama is still polling ahead in three of the necessary swing states, colorado, ohio, and new mexico. I wouldn't be shocked if he lost ohio, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he won nevada. In either situation he's the president. Like, Obama doesn't have it in the bag, but I don't think the McCain camp should be celebrating.
Hodoku: Do you believe Sean Hannity and Bill O'reily to be unbiased journalists? You've spoken poorly about the "liberal media" before, so I just want to get an idea of what you think is balanced news.
Also, McCain is up by 2% in national polling, but still down in the electoral college. I guess he sort of has a lead. It's nothing to get excited about. Obama is still polling ahead in three of the necessary swing states, colorado, ohio, and new mexico. I wouldn't be shocked if he lost ohio, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he won nevada. In either situation he's the president. Like, Obama doesn't have it in the bag, but I don't think the McCain camp should be celebrating.
bit 1: I know Hannity and Oriely are biased. I was merely quoting hannity to emphasize my point (journalists have been totally ****ing obnoxious to Palin). However, I fail to see how Obama's weak performance in his interview has anything to do with Oriely's bias. Bill merely called him out when obama was play around an answer without actually saying anything - something more people should do.
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When this is the best that your party can come up with for media representation, it's no wonder that Republicans are in such dire straits.
McCain had one valid criticism of Obama, which was that he was inexperienced. He punted that one entirely when he tapped Palin. And any chance of winning the election(not that he actually had one) along with it. His platform no longer has any leg to stand on, and this whole fiasco w/ Palin's daughter being pregnant, while completely sordid and no one's business, has still served the purpose of showing what complete hypocrites the GoP are.
When this is the best that your party can come up with for media representation, it's no wonder that Republicans are in such dire straits.
McCain had one valid criticism of Obama, which was that he was inexperienced. He punted that one entirely when he tapped Palin. And any chance of winning the election(not that he actually had one) along with it. His platform no longer has any leg to stand on, and this whole fiasco w/ Palin's daughter being pregnant, while completely sordid and no one's business, has still served the purpose of showing what complete hypocrites the GoP are.
Dire what now? You are far, far more biased than ANY of them (barring coulter). Furthermore, in an election year where our party is incumbent, approval ratings are low, a war is going on, and the economy is bad, and we're STILL winning - I would hardly call that dire ANYTHING.
As for criticisim, there is plenty more that we have gone over in this thread. Obama is weak on most of the key issues, and the american people can see that quite readily now...
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Orielly interview shows obama for the yammering idiot he is. People in battleground states watch him, and I'd almost be willing to bet that there is a notable swing in mccain's favor after the whole thing is over.
What? O'Reilly doesn't let anyone speak when he interviews them, giving the impression that the other person doesn't know what they are talking about. See his debate with Dawkins, etc.
Dire what now? You are far, far more biased than ANY of them (barring coulter). Furthermore, in an election year where our party is incumbent, approval ratings are low, a war is going on, and the economy is bad, and we're STILL winning - I would hardly call that dire ANYTHING.
As for criticisim, there is plenty more that we have gone over in this thread. Obama is weak on most of the key issues, and the american people can see that quite readily now...
Winning? Most recent polls (if you go by a site like fivethirtyeight.com, which averages all polls and takes a scientific approach to everything) have Obama still winning the popular vote poll, and winning in all the relevant states to get elected.
Obama is not weak on most of the key issues, he is strong on all of them. Terrorism and Iraq are not the economy, which is the issue in this election, which McCain is abysmal at.
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Dire what now? You are far, far more biased than ANY of them (barring coulter). Furthermore, in an election year where our party is incumbent, approval ratings are low, a war is going on, and the economy is bad, and we're STILL winning - I would hardly call that dire ANYTHING.
As for criticisim, there is plenty more that we have gone over in this thread. Obama is weak on most of the key issues, and the american people can see that quite readily now...
The only things that Obama is 'weak' on are Terrorism and Iraq. The problem is that you, unlike most of the country, don't realize that these are not actually issues, the GoP just wants you to think that they are. On things like the economy and the environment(you know, things that actually matter and have a relevant influence on people), Obama has McCain completely outclassed.
And don't act like McCain is special because he's tied with Obama, or maybe a point ahead of him in some polls, for the first time ever. Obama is still leading overwhelmingly in swing states, which is all that will matter in the end.
Lastly, the fact that McCain has any supporters is just a testament to how completely blind and stubborn Republicans really are. McCain is very, very obviously of the same mindset as GWB on virtually everything. Yet somehow, despite the fact that Bush's approval rating at this point is like 5%, Conservatives still delude themselves into thinking that things will be better w/ McCain. McCain is nothing more than Bush-lite. If there is a major difference between them, it is that McCain is opposed to torture. Of course, this is virtually meaningless, because it is only due to the fact that he WAS tortured himself. Voting for McCain is just voting for GWB for 4 more years. It's not going to happen.
The only things that Obama is 'weak' on are Terrorism and Iraq. The problem is that you, unlike most of the country, don't realize that these are not actually issues, the GoP just wants you to think that they are. On things like the economy and the environment(you know, things that actually matter and have a relevant influence on people), Obama has McCain completely outclassed.
Obama is weak on all foregin policy (lets look a month or so back, when he wanted the UN to act on georgia - where russia has veto power), military matters, and terrorisim issues. Of those, the fact that his foreign policy experience and knowledge are so minimal actually scares me. He seems to know less about the world in general than most 8th graders. To borrow a democrat line, hes really "out of touch" with the world audience.
As for the economy - I've discussed this before, and you continually ignore the fact that the disproportionately high taxes on the rich that Obama plans to use to fund his idiotic healthcare plan do NOTHING to help the economy, while Mccains across-the-board tax cuts do. Supporting small business and investment are the ways to make more jobs, while neutering nearly every investor in this country is NOT, healthcare be damned.
Healthcare wise, I've made my stance - the canadian system kills, and it kills in far more brutal ways than our system does. Fostering competition (see the privately owned emergency centers that are PACKED) is the best way to decrease healthcare costs, and the same goes for insurance.
What other issues do you care about, that you believe mr. Hussein Obama is stronger on that McCain - please, enlighten me!
And don't act like McCain is special because he's tied with Obama, or maybe a point ahead of him in some polls, for the first time ever. Obama is still leading overwhelmingly in swing states, which is all that will matter in the end.
This is merely the continuation of a trend that begun after obama clinched the nomination - that is, his badly run campaign has been loosing points to mcain from the beginning. While I'm still giving it time to stabilize, if the past few months have been evidence of anything, it is that the more people learn about obama, the more they (correctly) come to hate the fork-tounged devil.
Lastly, the fact that McCain has any supporters is just a testament to how completely blind and stubborn Republicans really are. McCain is very, very obviously of the same mindset as GWB on virtually everything. Yet somehow, despite the fact that Bush's approval rating at this point is like 5%, Conservatives still delude themselves into thinking that things will be better w/ McCain. McCain is nothing more than Bush-lite. If there is a major difference between them, it is that McCain is opposed to torture. Of course, this is virtually meaningless, because it is only due to the fact that he WAS tortured himself. Voting for McCain is just voting for GWB for 4 more years. It's not going to happen.
Bush has had approval gravitating around 30%, while your dem congress has had single-digit approval for the past half year. Now, now - isn't that the pot calling the kettle black.
As for the bush lite bit: Seriously, you dems are gayer for this line than the two guys from brokeback. Please, please quit trying to convince yourselves of this gross misrepresentation of McCain, beacuse its both getting old and annoying.
The only things that Obama is 'weak' on are Terrorism and Iraq. The problem is that you, unlike most of the country, don't realize that these are not actually issues
In a world where the next president will have to deal with two wars, Iran, Russia, and al Qaeda, foreign policy and terrorism have no meaning?
Wow... Just wow...
And don't act like McCain is special because he's tied with Obama, or maybe a point ahead of him in some polls, for the first time ever.
Erm... He was ahead going into the conventions, and he's ahead coming out of them. I don't see why the supporters of McCain shouldn't be allowed to be happy about this.
I really only started paying attention to political matters at or around the latter part of the Clinton years, so my knowledge of political history is somewhat lacking. But I can tell you from my point of view that Obama has definitely gotten the better coverage from the "Liberal Media". When was the last time he got a hard question? One that he didnt have to stammer over for 5 minutes before he spits out an answer thats not quite an answer, but something pretty sounding enough and just confusing enough for people to think hes really a deep thinker. Never thats when.
Its absolutely disgusting how the media treats him. He`s up on this pedastal of history and if one person steps out of line to shine a little light on his credentials then that person is either a racist or ignorant. I`m sorry I thought elections were there for the people to choose a person seeking office. Not for the media to prop up someone who has no record whatsoever and treat this person as being the greatest thing since sliced bread.
I admit, I`m a Rush and Hannity listener and fan. Yes I have issues with McCain. Yes he`s not really what I envisioned when the whole primary season started. But he is someone who says what he means and means what he says. Trying to get a straight answer from Obama is about as hard as pulling teeth with a toothpick, in my opinion.
If you`ll notice during his sometimes interviews with his media groupies, they will point out something he said and then he`ll come right over them and say...No thats not what I said.......Wait. Wait a minute. You just said it. How can it not be what you JUST said. We`ve got the footage of what you Just said. C`mon. Give us a straight answer.
And heres something I want to know. How come no-one in the Liberal Media is willing to bring up William Heirs? Stephanopolis is the only journalist whos even broached the subject and that was just once in a primary debate with both Hillary and Edwards still in the race. I want to know. I think America wants to know. How is it he can be on a board, the Woods Foundation or Woods Group, or some such organization as that, be friends with the man and not know the man is an un-repentant American Terrorist? The man (Heirs)had the balls to release an article about not being sorry he bombed the Pentagon, the Capitol and the New York City Police Headquarters ON 9/11 !!!!!!!! What kind of messed up stuff is that?
I`m sorry, some of the things I say may get me flamed and some might even get me banned or something but I happen to think that Obama would be a very bad choice for President. He`s not the choice that America needs. Change is gonna happen regardless , but his kind of change would destroy this nation.
My opinion. Just thought I`d throw it out there.
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In a world where the next president will have to deal with two wars, Iran, Russia, and al Qaeda, foreign policy and terrorism have no meaning?
Wow... Just wow...
Erm... He was ahead going into the conventions, and he's ahead coming out of them. I don't see why the supporters of McCain shouldn't be allowed to be happy about this.
I still am frustrated that the Russia/Georgia conflict is so erroneously perceived.
Georgia (and their corrupt government) is in the wrong, but since they are our allies, we blame Russia, who took the Georgian bait.
And those things don't have 'no meaning', they are just not the top issues of this election. That was last election.
Obama specialized his major in college in International Relations, and his thesis was on Soviet Nuclear Disarmament...the man isn't clueless about the world and how it works, sorry.
At any rate, the ECONOMY is what is on most people's minds, as some people actually want America to stop with the world policing, and start making sure we HAVE homes to come back to.
At any rate, the ECONOMY is what is on most people's minds
I agree. However, can we both agree right now that to say the issues of foreign policy are completely fabricated and are some sort of strange illusion created by the Republican party is a phenomenally incorrect statement? I'm hoping we can reach common ground there.
I am not sure what strength you are talking about when it comes to obama and the issues.
Foriegn Affairs: Obama has little experience with this even though some how he is on the committee. I think the best he has done is send more money to africa. The last time he had a chance to step up to the plate he pulled a John Kerry and refered it to the UN. It took him 3 or 4 days to say the same thing that Mccain said 3 or 4 days prior to that. In fact in those 3 or 4 days he came up with 4 or 5 different answers all of which were wrong. which tells me he can't make a decision.
Economics: Personally i don't like either one of their plans. however Mccain seems to be bent more on cutting spending and promoting success. You don't get rid of poverty by hand outs. You get out of poverty by getting people into jobs. You get jobs by promoting small businesses and other industry. This means lowering corporate taxes and other taxes that hinder and subject citizens and businesses from success. you don't tie a 10 pound weight to phelps and then so go win 8 gold medals do you? so why would you tie 500 pound weights to a company and say go make jobs? it doesn't make sense.
For obama i see the destruction of small businesses and cut back in jobs and job growth as companies fire and re-organize to meet the expenses of all his new tax increases. What liberals fail to understand is that companies exist to make money. As companies make money they expand. This puts them in a situation to hire people. As companies make more money they pay more in raises and other benefits to entice people to come and work for them.
Many small businesses are not incorporated. So their earnings get filed on the owners tax return. Most of those that make over 250K are small business owners that are not incorporated. Also something that obama doesn't realize is that the life blood of corporations and other ideas is investments. without investors then companies cannot get the capital they need to bring the product to market. That is why companies issue stocks. Obama's plans to tax these people just means less money for companies which goes back to the above.
Enviroment: Here is where there is almost no difference between the two of them. Except obama hasn't gotten the fact that any alternative fuel is still 20-30 year away. That america has a major national security risk by not going after it's own oil supplies which is estimated in the trillions of barrels. That we continue to remain dependant on other countries for our energy. By drilling now we create thousands and thousands of good paying jobs. We reduce the price of oil at the same time. in the mean time we can be researching better alternative energy. I am a fan of hydrogen myself, and we can get off of foriegn oil and keep the money here and lower our trade deficite by billions of dollars which increases the value of the dollar itself.
We need to expand clean coal plants nuclear plants and other forms of energy. if we built just about 10 nuclear plants we would surpass that of solar, wind, hydro energy used in the US. They are reliable safe and if the right reactor is used can fuel themselves for years and years.
This is where mccain has it right and obama has it wrong.
Healthcare: Again Mccain has it more right than obama. allowing people to pick their own health insurance is better than the government doing it any day of the week. If someone could name 1 successful government social program i would like to hear it. so far they are all failures and going down the drain.
if you want to know what free healthcare is like ask the people on welfare or medicaid. they have to go to only certain doctors and hospitals (not the best this is the government we are talking about) do you really want they guy with the lowest bid taking care of you or your family? i don't think so.
This is also why there are more and more private practices opening up in canada and other so-called free healthcare nations. they are opening up to meet the demand and guess what people are paying it in droves. actually yes the US gets dinged because we do not supply free healthcare to everyone. those stats have bias numbers in them and they are not standard. i will have to find the cato institute article on it again.
Besides this nonsense of free healthcare is just that nonsense. it isn't free someone is paying for it. whether it is you are not doesn't matter. The government can't run itself now what makes you think it can run a healthcare system? This isn't also included on the other tax raises obama wants to do. This will be a separate payroll tax or something that you will be hit with.
so if you like working and seeing half your check go to the government and people getting fired from their jobs because their companies can't make money then please vote for obama. I mean it is the american dream to get that check in the mail that says courtesy of your hardworking neighbor. make sure you thank him for your hand out.
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What other issues do you care about, that you believe mr. Hussein Obama is stronger on that McCain - please, enlighten me!
The fact that you just said that makes me lose all respect for your argument, as that is quite clearly the racist fear-mongering that the American people are already over (or at least the left is, not so sure about extremist right wingers, thanks to this post).
EDIT:
Quote from Highroller »
In a world where the next president will have to deal with two wars, Iran, Russia, and al Qaeda, foreign policy and terrorism have no meaning?
He did not say that foreign policy wouldn't be an important issue; he said that Iraq and Terrorism won't be. That's the problem with the Republican base nowadays, they think all there is to foreign policy is Iraq and Terrorism, which, if you took a minute to read an article from the UN Wire, you'd know that that is false.
For obama i see the destruction of small businesses and cut back in jobs and job growth as companies fire and re-organize to meet the expenses of all his new tax increases. What liberals fail to understand is that companies exist to make money. As companies make money they expand. This puts them in a situation to hire people. As companies make more money they pay more in raises and other benefits to entice people to come and work for them.
Many small businesses are not incorporated. So their earnings get filed on the owners tax return. Most of those that make over 250K are small business owners that are not incorporated. Also something that obama doesn't realize is that the life blood of corporations and other ideas is investments. without investors then companies cannot get the capital they need to bring the product to market. That is why companies issue stocks. Obama's plans to tax these people just means less money for companies which goes back to the above.
Exerpts from Obama's plan:
* Provide Tax Relief for Small Businesses and Start Up Companies: Barack Obama will eliminate all capital gains taxes on start-up and small businesses to encourage innovation and job creation. Obama will also support small business owners by providing a $500 “Making Work Pay” tax credit to almost every worker in America. Self-employed small business owners pay both the employee and the employer side of the payroll tax, and this measure will reduce the burdens of this double taxation.
* Create a National Network of Public-Private Business Incubators: Barack Obama will support entrepreneurship and spur job growth by creating a national network of public-private business incubators. Business incubators facilitate the critical work of entrepreneurs in creating start-up companies. Obama will invest $250 million per year to increase the number and size of incubators in disadvantaged communities throughout the country.
He isn't going to run small business into the ground, that is just Republican heresay.
Enviroment: Here is where there is almost no difference between the two of them. Except obama hasn't gotten the fact that any alternative fuel is still 20-30 year away. That america has a major national security risk by not going after it's own oil supplies which is estimated in the trillions of barrels.That we continue to remain dependant on other countries for our energy. By drilling now we create thousands and thousands of good paying jobs. We reduce the price of oil at the same time. in the mean time we can be researching better alternative energy. I am a fan of hydrogen myself, and we can get off of foriegn oil and keep the money here and lower our trade deficite by billions of dollars which increases the value of the dollar itself.
There is so much misinformation here it is startling.
-Alternative fuel isn't going to pop up and be realized until we pump money into research and development for it. If we just 'assume it will come', it won't. Obama's plan includes researching alternative energy. McCain's plan is just NUCLEAR POWER, which isn't terrible, but nothing new, and just creates more potential future issues.
-There is no national security risk related to oil. We get most of our oil from Mexico, Venezuela and Canada.
-The 'untapped' oil out there is not going to last very long. We use 7 billion barrels a year, and the Alaskan pipeline has moved a total of 15 billion in 30 years, and what is in Alaska couldn't last us more than a year.
-Drilling elsewhere wouldn't have any immediate effect on prices, and when it does, months to years later, it would drop them a few cents, if at all.
We need to expand clean coal plants nuclear plants and other forms of energy. if we built just about 10 nuclear plants we would surpass that of solar, wind, hydro energy used in the US. They are reliable safe and if the right reactor is used can fuel themselves for years and years.
Even the Republicans don't like Nuclear power. They were visibly uneasy during McCain's speach when he mentioned it. I certainly don't dislike it, but America is never going to get on board with Nuclear plants. Clean coal is kind of a joke, we could do better than that.
Healthcare: Again Mccain has it more right than obama. allowing people to pick their own health insurance is better than the government doing it any day of the week. If someone could name 1 successful government social program i would like to hear it. so far they are all failures and going down the drain.
^^^
Opinion, opinion, opinion. Cite some facts on failed socialized healthcare please. Also, Obama's plan doesn't force you to get government healthcare if you already have insurance...
This isn't also included on the other tax raises obama wants to do. This will be a separate payroll tax or something that you will be hit with.
Source?
Seriously.
This looks like Obama will get enough tax revenue to cover this stuff from his plan. And it won't cost half our paychecks. I doubt anyone that posts here makes enough to be crying about the repealing of the Bush cuts.
The fact that you just said that makes me lose all respect for your argument, as that is quite clearly the racist fear-mongering that the American people are already over (or at least the left is, not so sure about extremist right wingers, thanks to this post).
He got suspended for a year for that post.
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I agree. However, can we both agree right now that to say the issues of foreign policy are completely fabricated and are some sort of strange illusion created by the Republican party is a phenomenally incorrect statement? I'm hoping we can reach common ground there.
Terrorism is a loose term, and the threat of terrorism is overwhelmingly exaggerated, in my opinion. I don't see how soldiers in a war zone getting bombed can be constituted as acts of terrorism, but this is what the majority of the items that come back as 'terrorist actions' seem to be. If anything, it seems like terrorism has drastically *increased* since we duplictously invaded Iraq. I feel that GWB has acted more like a terrorist than anyone else in the last 8 years. Yes, the World Trade Centers got bombed. But GWB's reactions to this, especially the way he manipulated it to manuever the country towards his own ends, feels like far more of a violation to me than the original act.
Besides, I didn't say 'foreign policy', I said 'Iraq'. Iraq is not, and never was, the problem that GWB made it out to be. And Iraq is not all inclusive of foreign problems. The only problems we have there now are ones that we created. I don't think that Russia, nor the Al Qaeda, are real threats anymore. I do think that China and North Korea are/becoming legitimate problems, but no one seems concerned about them at all. I think that China's current state of affairs completely gives the lie to our declaration as 'defenders of Democracy'. They are the most populous country on the globe by a vast majority, and are a completely anti-Democratic state. But we're still entirely in bed with them. If America cared about Democracy as much as we claim, we would have taken SOME stance in this regard by now. But our poltical base is full of hypocrites. I honestly think that Obama will do things differently, and that the world will RESPECT the US again. GWB has tried to cause people to fear us; completely eschewing any semblance of respect. And he failed even in that. And, as I said, McCain really is barely different than GWB. He's just a better politician.
I know that post is alot of rheotoric, but it is honestly how I feel. I have 3 daughters, and everyday I wonder what world I am raising them in. Not one that I am proud of, to be certain.
While I don't completely agree with socialized healthcare, because I've worked long enough to realize that all government programs are ultimately paid for by taxpayers, it is abundantly obvious that our current health care system is flatly not working. I'm fortunate that my work provides 100% health care coverage for no cost to me, but most people simply are not this lucky, or anything close. Something has to be done about health care, and Obama's ideas are at least a step in the right direction.
Listen to Seds, for he speaks the truth. That graph needs to be hammered home over and over and over again. Here is another similar one, which breaks it down based on income percentile:
(Make sure you read the Y axis on that one closely: it measures after-tax income, not amount of taxation, so a positive Y value means a tax cut and a negative one means a tax increase.)
Essentially, McCain will give extremely wealthy people a significant amount of extra money while providing almost no relief to people with low incomes. Obama will provide a good amount of tax relief to working- and middle-class Americans, while increasing the tax burden on the rich.
As icing on the cake, federal revenues under Obama will be far higher than those under McCain, thanks to the great amount of additional revenue gotten solely from the tax hike on the top 0.1 percent. It's McCain who should be taken to task for not detailing how he will pay for his programs, not Obama.
Startlingly, the McCain campaign was able to yak away about Obama's fabricated plan to raise taxes all throughout the convention without being called by the media at all.
While McCain's tax cuts for the rich are not a good idea, he does also cut them for businesses. America has the 2nd highest business tax in the world, and McCain is right to be substantially lowering the rate to foster competition.
the lower 50%(<30K) of this country pay 3%. in fact the poorest of the poor get more money back then what they pay in if they pay taxes at all. the top 50% of this country pay 97% of the taxes collected. the top 10% pay almost 50% of the taxes collected and the top 25% pay 64% of the taxes collected. so you are saying that these people should pay more?
under mccain everyone gets a tax cut. including successful people that build jobs and make businesses. sorry joe on the street doesn't pay my paycheck.
this pretty sums up both economic plans. no obama's tax increases will not compensate for his spending it also does not include his plan for a NHS. mccain's is caculated in because his is hard numbers where obama's are random at best.
in order for obama to cove what he wants to give everyone he is going to have to raise taxes. so whatever tax break he does give will just be trumped by the increase.
why be successful if i am just goint to hand it over to the government there is no point in it.
the lower 50%(<30K) of this country pay 3%. in fact the poorest of the poor get more money back then what they pay in if they pay taxes at all. the top 50% of this country pay 97% of the taxes collected. the top 10% pay almost 50% of the taxes collected and the top 25% pay 64% of the taxes collected. so you are saying that these people should pay more?
under mccain everyone gets a tax cut. including successful people that build jobs and make businesses. sorry joe on the street doesn't pay my paycheck.
this pretty sums up both economic plans. no obama's tax increases will not compensate for his spending it also does not include his plan for a NHS. mccain's is caculated in because his is hard numbers where obama's are random at best.
in order for obama to cove what he wants to give everyone he is going to have to raise taxes. so whatever tax break he does give will just be trumped by the increase.
why be successful if i am just goint to hand it over to the government there is no point in it.
You wrote nothing that refutes the graph in your post. You simply said why you don't agree with its economic decisions. Not to mention lines like "why be successful" are just flat out wrong.
That graph was posted up to show how incorrect your previous statement was. Jumping into a red herring about how poor the plan is in your eyes does nothing to detract from the entire reason the graph was posted.
Source?
Seriously.
This looks like Obama will get enough tax revenue to cover this stuff from his plan. And it won't cost half our paychecks. I doubt anyone that posts here makes enough to be crying about the repealing of the Bush cuts.
As for a source, I think we can look at the fact that Obama probably wouldn't mention any part of his attempts at change that would reflect on him negatively. You have no idea what he may have in store for other approaches to other taxes. To say you know absolutely everything would be ridiculous.
It sounds cliche, but that's politics. Make vague promises appealing to to the voters. Meet those promises. Then, apply some things you conveniently didn't mention in the race that pretty much makes the original promises not do anything.
This will happen regardless of who's president. Obama will. McCain will. Just like attack ads can take things out of context, the supporting ones will leave out the fine print and asterisks.
In the end, posting up graphs at this point is almost useless. We all know what their plans are, and the basic idea of republicans not liking Obama's is how the taxes are used as a redistribution of wealth of sorts. Showing how much he taxes big companies and cuts back on taxes for the lower end of the spectrum, if anything, will reinforce republican views and opinions.
Essentially, showing us graphs [especially that one] doesn't really persuade anyone.
And because the Dems have enjoyed it so much this thread for Obama:
"If the election were held today, McCain would win"
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Fair enough, but I just don't see obama winning:
-He has NO idea on how to campaign. Hes outspent obama 5 to 2/3, and yet hes lost over 15 points in the polls.
-He is a liar and the american people know it. More and more are coming to terms with this decision and are making the intelligent choice.
-He really IS nothing but talk, and americans are getting sick of his slick, con-man style rhetoric.
-People are coming to realize that Obama IS one of the most liberal political figures in this country - and most americans really don't want that kind of twisted communisim.
-People are also sick of the media's bias - to quote Sean Hannity, "Journalisim is DEAD."
-Bradley Effect.
Among other points that I don't feel like making. He just seems like such a.. bad choice. If they had gone with someone moderate, maybe - but they chose the least electable candidate, while republicans chose their best. Though only time will tell, I'm fairly confident that I will be vindicated in this and I'll have the right to rub this into Obama sheep for the rest of time
EDIT:
What do you all think about McCain setting up shop in Cali? good idea or bad idea?
More edit:
Rassmuessen and two other polling groups show mccain up anywhere from 2-6 points on obama. The trend continues
Well there is a difference. For instance, on the Republican "Stupid or Evil?" scale (the only political scale that is useful when evaluating Republican candidates), Bush scores a net 90% Stupid/10% Evil, whereas McCain probably nets a good 20% Stupid/80% Evil. That's a huge difference!
But then, like everything else according to the Mainstream (GOP) Media, That's Good for John McCain!
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Orielly interview shows obama for the yammering idiot he is. People in battleground states watch him, and I'd almost be willing to bet that there is a notable swing in mccain's favor after the whole thing is over.
Also, McCain is up by 2% in national polling, but still down in the electoral college. I guess he sort of has a lead. It's nothing to get excited about. Obama is still polling ahead in three of the necessary swing states, colorado, ohio, and new mexico. I wouldn't be shocked if he lost ohio, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he won nevada. In either situation he's the president. Like, Obama doesn't have it in the bag, but I don't think the McCain camp should be celebrating.
bit 1: I know Hannity and Oriely are biased. I was merely quoting hannity to emphasize my point (journalists have been totally ****ing obnoxious to Palin). However, I fail to see how Obama's weak performance in his interview has anything to do with Oriely's bias. Bill merely called him out when obama was play around an answer without actually saying anything - something more people should do.
When this is the best that your party can come up with for media representation, it's no wonder that Republicans are in such dire straits.
McCain had one valid criticism of Obama, which was that he was inexperienced. He punted that one entirely when he tapped Palin. And any chance of winning the election(not that he actually had one) along with it. His platform no longer has any leg to stand on, and this whole fiasco w/ Palin's daughter being pregnant, while completely sordid and no one's business, has still served the purpose of showing what complete hypocrites the GoP are.
Dire what now? You are far, far more biased than ANY of them (barring coulter). Furthermore, in an election year where our party is incumbent, approval ratings are low, a war is going on, and the economy is bad, and we're STILL winning - I would hardly call that dire ANYTHING.
As for criticisim, there is plenty more that we have gone over in this thread. Obama is weak on most of the key issues, and the american people can see that quite readily now...
What? O'Reilly doesn't let anyone speak when he interviews them, giving the impression that the other person doesn't know what they are talking about. See his debate with Dawkins, etc.
Winning? Most recent polls (if you go by a site like fivethirtyeight.com, which averages all polls and takes a scientific approach to everything) have Obama still winning the popular vote poll, and winning in all the relevant states to get elected.
Obama is not weak on most of the key issues, he is strong on all of them. Terrorism and Iraq are not the economy, which is the issue in this election, which McCain is abysmal at.
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The only things that Obama is 'weak' on are Terrorism and Iraq. The problem is that you, unlike most of the country, don't realize that these are not actually issues, the GoP just wants you to think that they are. On things like the economy and the environment(you know, things that actually matter and have a relevant influence on people), Obama has McCain completely outclassed.
And don't act like McCain is special because he's tied with Obama, or maybe a point ahead of him in some polls, for the first time ever. Obama is still leading overwhelmingly in swing states, which is all that will matter in the end.
Lastly, the fact that McCain has any supporters is just a testament to how completely blind and stubborn Republicans really are. McCain is very, very obviously of the same mindset as GWB on virtually everything. Yet somehow, despite the fact that Bush's approval rating at this point is like 5%, Conservatives still delude themselves into thinking that things will be better w/ McCain. McCain is nothing more than Bush-lite. If there is a major difference between them, it is that McCain is opposed to torture. Of course, this is virtually meaningless, because it is only due to the fact that he WAS tortured himself. Voting for McCain is just voting for GWB for 4 more years. It's not going to happen.
Obama is weak on all foregin policy (lets look a month or so back, when he wanted the UN to act on georgia - where russia has veto power), military matters, and terrorisim issues. Of those, the fact that his foreign policy experience and knowledge are so minimal actually scares me. He seems to know less about the world in general than most 8th graders. To borrow a democrat line, hes really "out of touch" with the world audience.
As for the economy - I've discussed this before, and you continually ignore the fact that the disproportionately high taxes on the rich that Obama plans to use to fund his idiotic healthcare plan do NOTHING to help the economy, while Mccains across-the-board tax cuts do. Supporting small business and investment are the ways to make more jobs, while neutering nearly every investor in this country is NOT, healthcare be damned.
Healthcare wise, I've made my stance - the canadian system kills, and it kills in far more brutal ways than our system does. Fostering competition (see the privately owned emergency centers that are PACKED) is the best way to decrease healthcare costs, and the same goes for insurance.
What other issues do you care about, that you believe mr. Hussein Obama is stronger on that McCain - please, enlighten me!
This is merely the continuation of a trend that begun after obama clinched the nomination - that is, his badly run campaign has been loosing points to mcain from the beginning. While I'm still giving it time to stabilize, if the past few months have been evidence of anything, it is that the more people learn about obama, the more they (correctly) come to hate the fork-tounged devil.
Bush has had approval gravitating around 30%, while your dem congress has had single-digit approval for the past half year. Now, now - isn't that the pot calling the kettle black.
As for the bush lite bit: Seriously, you dems are gayer for this line than the two guys from brokeback. Please, please quit trying to convince yourselves of this gross misrepresentation of McCain, beacuse its both getting old and annoying.
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In a world where the next president will have to deal with two wars, Iran, Russia, and al Qaeda, foreign policy and terrorism have no meaning?
Wow... Just wow...
Erm... He was ahead going into the conventions, and he's ahead coming out of them. I don't see why the supporters of McCain shouldn't be allowed to be happy about this.
Its absolutely disgusting how the media treats him. He`s up on this pedastal of history and if one person steps out of line to shine a little light on his credentials then that person is either a racist or ignorant. I`m sorry I thought elections were there for the people to choose a person seeking office. Not for the media to prop up someone who has no record whatsoever and treat this person as being the greatest thing since sliced bread.
I admit, I`m a Rush and Hannity listener and fan. Yes I have issues with McCain. Yes he`s not really what I envisioned when the whole primary season started. But he is someone who says what he means and means what he says. Trying to get a straight answer from Obama is about as hard as pulling teeth with a toothpick, in my opinion.
If you`ll notice during his sometimes interviews with his media groupies, they will point out something he said and then he`ll come right over them and say...No thats not what I said.......Wait. Wait a minute. You just said it. How can it not be what you JUST said. We`ve got the footage of what you Just said. C`mon. Give us a straight answer.
And heres something I want to know. How come no-one in the Liberal Media is willing to bring up William Heirs? Stephanopolis is the only journalist whos even broached the subject and that was just once in a primary debate with both Hillary and Edwards still in the race. I want to know. I think America wants to know. How is it he can be on a board, the Woods Foundation or Woods Group, or some such organization as that, be friends with the man and not know the man is an un-repentant American Terrorist? The man (Heirs)had the balls to release an article about not being sorry he bombed the Pentagon, the Capitol and the New York City Police Headquarters ON 9/11 !!!!!!!! What kind of messed up stuff is that?
I`m sorry, some of the things I say may get me flamed and some might even get me banned or something but I happen to think that Obama would be a very bad choice for President. He`s not the choice that America needs. Change is gonna happen regardless , but his kind of change would destroy this nation.
My opinion. Just thought I`d throw it out there.
I still am frustrated that the Russia/Georgia conflict is so erroneously perceived.
Georgia (and their corrupt government) is in the wrong, but since they are our allies, we blame Russia, who took the Georgian bait.
And those things don't have 'no meaning', they are just not the top issues of this election. That was last election.
Obama specialized his major in college in International Relations, and his thesis was on Soviet Nuclear Disarmament...the man isn't clueless about the world and how it works, sorry.
At any rate, the ECONOMY is what is on most people's minds, as some people actually want America to stop with the world policing, and start making sure we HAVE homes to come back to.
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I agree. However, can we both agree right now that to say the issues of foreign policy are completely fabricated and are some sort of strange illusion created by the Republican party is a phenomenally incorrect statement? I'm hoping we can reach common ground there.
Foriegn Affairs: Obama has little experience with this even though some how he is on the committee. I think the best he has done is send more money to africa. The last time he had a chance to step up to the plate he pulled a John Kerry and refered it to the UN. It took him 3 or 4 days to say the same thing that Mccain said 3 or 4 days prior to that. In fact in those 3 or 4 days he came up with 4 or 5 different answers all of which were wrong. which tells me he can't make a decision.
Economics: Personally i don't like either one of their plans. however Mccain seems to be bent more on cutting spending and promoting success. You don't get rid of poverty by hand outs. You get out of poverty by getting people into jobs. You get jobs by promoting small businesses and other industry. This means lowering corporate taxes and other taxes that hinder and subject citizens and businesses from success. you don't tie a 10 pound weight to phelps and then so go win 8 gold medals do you? so why would you tie 500 pound weights to a company and say go make jobs? it doesn't make sense.
For obama i see the destruction of small businesses and cut back in jobs and job growth as companies fire and re-organize to meet the expenses of all his new tax increases. What liberals fail to understand is that companies exist to make money. As companies make money they expand. This puts them in a situation to hire people. As companies make more money they pay more in raises and other benefits to entice people to come and work for them.
Many small businesses are not incorporated. So their earnings get filed on the owners tax return. Most of those that make over 250K are small business owners that are not incorporated. Also something that obama doesn't realize is that the life blood of corporations and other ideas is investments. without investors then companies cannot get the capital they need to bring the product to market. That is why companies issue stocks. Obama's plans to tax these people just means less money for companies which goes back to the above.
Enviroment: Here is where there is almost no difference between the two of them. Except obama hasn't gotten the fact that any alternative fuel is still 20-30 year away. That america has a major national security risk by not going after it's own oil supplies which is estimated in the trillions of barrels. That we continue to remain dependant on other countries for our energy. By drilling now we create thousands and thousands of good paying jobs. We reduce the price of oil at the same time. in the mean time we can be researching better alternative energy. I am a fan of hydrogen myself, and we can get off of foriegn oil and keep the money here and lower our trade deficite by billions of dollars which increases the value of the dollar itself.
We need to expand clean coal plants nuclear plants and other forms of energy. if we built just about 10 nuclear plants we would surpass that of solar, wind, hydro energy used in the US. They are reliable safe and if the right reactor is used can fuel themselves for years and years.
This is where mccain has it right and obama has it wrong.
Healthcare: Again Mccain has it more right than obama. allowing people to pick their own health insurance is better than the government doing it any day of the week. If someone could name 1 successful government social program i would like to hear it. so far they are all failures and going down the drain.
if you want to know what free healthcare is like ask the people on welfare or medicaid. they have to go to only certain doctors and hospitals (not the best this is the government we are talking about) do you really want they guy with the lowest bid taking care of you or your family? i don't think so.
This is also why there are more and more private practices opening up in canada and other so-called free healthcare nations. they are opening up to meet the demand and guess what people are paying it in droves. actually yes the US gets dinged because we do not supply free healthcare to everyone. those stats have bias numbers in them and they are not standard. i will have to find the cato institute article on it again.
Besides this nonsense of free healthcare is just that nonsense. it isn't free someone is paying for it. whether it is you are not doesn't matter. The government can't run itself now what makes you think it can run a healthcare system? This isn't also included on the other tax raises obama wants to do. This will be a separate payroll tax or something that you will be hit with.
so if you like working and seeing half your check go to the government and people getting fired from their jobs because their companies can't make money then please vote for obama. I mean it is the american dream to get that check in the mail that says courtesy of your hardworking neighbor. make sure you thank him for your hand out.
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The fact that you just said that makes me lose all respect for your argument, as that is quite clearly the racist fear-mongering that the American people are already over (or at least the left is, not so sure about extremist right wingers, thanks to this post).
EDIT:
He did not say that foreign policy wouldn't be an important issue; he said that Iraq and Terrorism won't be. That's the problem with the Republican base nowadays, they think all there is to foreign policy is Iraq and Terrorism, which, if you took a minute to read an article from the UN Wire, you'd know that that is false.
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Exerpts from Obama's plan:
* Provide Tax Relief for Small Businesses and Start Up Companies: Barack Obama will eliminate all capital gains taxes on start-up and small businesses to encourage innovation and job creation. Obama will also support small business owners by providing a $500 “Making Work Pay” tax credit to almost every worker in America. Self-employed small business owners pay both the employee and the employer side of the payroll tax, and this measure will reduce the burdens of this double taxation.
* Create a National Network of Public-Private Business Incubators: Barack Obama will support entrepreneurship and spur job growth by creating a national network of public-private business incubators. Business incubators facilitate the critical work of entrepreneurs in creating start-up companies. Obama will invest $250 million per year to increase the number and size of incubators in disadvantaged communities throughout the country.
He isn't going to run small business into the ground, that is just Republican heresay.
There is so much misinformation here it is startling.
-Alternative fuel isn't going to pop up and be realized until we pump money into research and development for it. If we just 'assume it will come', it won't. Obama's plan includes researching alternative energy. McCain's plan is just NUCLEAR POWER, which isn't terrible, but nothing new, and just creates more potential future issues.
-There is no national security risk related to oil. We get most of our oil from Mexico, Venezuela and Canada.
-The 'untapped' oil out there is not going to last very long. We use 7 billion barrels a year, and the Alaskan pipeline has moved a total of 15 billion in 30 years, and what is in Alaska couldn't last us more than a year.
-Drilling elsewhere wouldn't have any immediate effect on prices, and when it does, months to years later, it would drop them a few cents, if at all.
Even the Republicans don't like Nuclear power. They were visibly uneasy during McCain's speach when he mentioned it. I certainly don't dislike it, but America is never going to get on board with Nuclear plants. Clean coal is kind of a joke, we could do better than that.
^^^
Opinion, opinion, opinion. Cite some facts on failed socialized healthcare please. Also, Obama's plan doesn't force you to get government healthcare if you already have insurance...
Source?
Seriously.
This looks like Obama will get enough tax revenue to cover this stuff from his plan. And it won't cost half our paychecks. I doubt anyone that posts here makes enough to be crying about the repealing of the Bush cuts.
He got suspended for a year for that post.
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Terrorism is a loose term, and the threat of terrorism is overwhelmingly exaggerated, in my opinion. I don't see how soldiers in a war zone getting bombed can be constituted as acts of terrorism, but this is what the majority of the items that come back as 'terrorist actions' seem to be. If anything, it seems like terrorism has drastically *increased* since we duplictously invaded Iraq. I feel that GWB has acted more like a terrorist than anyone else in the last 8 years. Yes, the World Trade Centers got bombed. But GWB's reactions to this, especially the way he manipulated it to manuever the country towards his own ends, feels like far more of a violation to me than the original act.
Besides, I didn't say 'foreign policy', I said 'Iraq'. Iraq is not, and never was, the problem that GWB made it out to be. And Iraq is not all inclusive of foreign problems. The only problems we have there now are ones that we created. I don't think that Russia, nor the Al Qaeda, are real threats anymore. I do think that China and North Korea are/becoming legitimate problems, but no one seems concerned about them at all. I think that China's current state of affairs completely gives the lie to our declaration as 'defenders of Democracy'. They are the most populous country on the globe by a vast majority, and are a completely anti-Democratic state. But we're still entirely in bed with them. If America cared about Democracy as much as we claim, we would have taken SOME stance in this regard by now. But our poltical base is full of hypocrites. I honestly think that Obama will do things differently, and that the world will RESPECT the US again. GWB has tried to cause people to fear us; completely eschewing any semblance of respect. And he failed even in that. And, as I said, McCain really is barely different than GWB. He's just a better politician.
I know that post is alot of rheotoric, but it is honestly how I feel. I have 3 daughters, and everyday I wonder what world I am raising them in. Not one that I am proud of, to be certain.
While I don't completely agree with socialized healthcare, because I've worked long enough to realize that all government programs are ultimately paid for by taxpayers, it is abundantly obvious that our current health care system is flatly not working. I'm fortunate that my work provides 100% health care coverage for no cost to me, but most people simply are not this lucky, or anything close. Something has to be done about health care, and Obama's ideas are at least a step in the right direction.
(Make sure you read the Y axis on that one closely: it measures after-tax income, not amount of taxation, so a positive Y value means a tax cut and a negative one means a tax increase.)
Essentially, McCain will give extremely wealthy people a significant amount of extra money while providing almost no relief to people with low incomes. Obama will provide a good amount of tax relief to working- and middle-class Americans, while increasing the tax burden on the rich.
As icing on the cake, federal revenues under Obama will be far higher than those under McCain, thanks to the great amount of additional revenue gotten solely from the tax hike on the top 0.1 percent. It's McCain who should be taken to task for not detailing how he will pay for his programs, not Obama.
Startlingly, the McCain campaign was able to yak away about Obama's fabricated plan to raise taxes all throughout the convention without being called by the media at all.
the lower 50%(<30K) of this country pay 3%. in fact the poorest of the poor get more money back then what they pay in if they pay taxes at all. the top 50% of this country pay 97% of the taxes collected. the top 10% pay almost 50% of the taxes collected and the top 25% pay 64% of the taxes collected. so you are saying that these people should pay more?
they already pay 35% of their income they make and another 15% on any capital gains they might have.
http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6
under mccain everyone gets a tax cut. including successful people that build jobs and make businesses. sorry joe on the street doesn't pay my paycheck.
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-na-taxplans21-2008aug21,0,4946497,full.story
this pretty sums up both economic plans. no obama's tax increases will not compensate for his spending it also does not include his plan for a NHS. mccain's is caculated in because his is hard numbers where obama's are random at best.
in order for obama to cove what he wants to give everyone he is going to have to raise taxes. so whatever tax break he does give will just be trumped by the increase.
why be successful if i am just goint to hand it over to the government there is no point in it.
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You wrote nothing that refutes the graph in your post. You simply said why you don't agree with its economic decisions. Not to mention lines like "why be successful" are just flat out wrong.
That graph was posted up to show how incorrect your previous statement was. Jumping into a red herring about how poor the plan is in your eyes does nothing to detract from the entire reason the graph was posted.
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As for a source, I think we can look at the fact that Obama probably wouldn't mention any part of his attempts at change that would reflect on him negatively. You have no idea what he may have in store for other approaches to other taxes. To say you know absolutely everything would be ridiculous.
It sounds cliche, but that's politics. Make vague promises appealing to to the voters. Meet those promises. Then, apply some things you conveniently didn't mention in the race that pretty much makes the original promises not do anything.
This will happen regardless of who's president. Obama will. McCain will. Just like attack ads can take things out of context, the supporting ones will leave out the fine print and asterisks.
In the end, posting up graphs at this point is almost useless. We all know what their plans are, and the basic idea of republicans not liking Obama's is how the taxes are used as a redistribution of wealth of sorts. Showing how much he taxes big companies and cuts back on taxes for the lower end of the spectrum, if anything, will reinforce republican views and opinions.
Essentially, showing us graphs [especially that one] doesn't really persuade anyone.
And because the Dems have enjoyed it so much this thread for Obama:
"If the election were held today, McCain would win"
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