Coming out of my reread, Asenion and TCMT were the two who looked the poorest to me. Stormblind also makes the list, although I'm not sure what to do about him. My nebulous understanding is that Stormblind is an un-retired player from a few years back. As such, I'm not sure how to interpret his play thusfar.
Asenion looks a hair better to me after his content post, but it's more to the tune of knocking him from "scum" to "leaning scum." I'm dumbfounded as to how he's seeing Void as potentially scummy, and I also disagree that Tom is anything approaching "pseudo-confirmed not-scum." The only thing that we know about Tom is that he is a probable-repeatable shooting role (vig, sk, or other). I can envision a possible world where scum!Tom shoots town!swishh for cred easily. We just don't have the facts where Tom is concerned yet.
However, TCMT tops my list.
--) Asenion and TCMT have this weird conversation towards the end of RVS about the extended twilight present in the game. Asenion looks bad for fishing about it, but TCMT's comment looks worse to me. Swishh asks if there's any reason to speculate, and TCMT quickly and immediately replies:
Quote from TCMT »
With no further information, no.
Some games have explicitly long twilights for the hell of it. Basic #70 comes to mind.
Kosa notes that there was a reason for Basic 70, and then the topic is dropped. While this could be read as TCMT wanting to call out Asenion's fishing, it could also be interpreted as coaching a scumbuddy, OR as acknowledging that he knows more about the twilight's role in the game that he's telling: potential scum theme, perhaps?
--) TCMT then applies some light pressure to Stormblind about his RVS vote, and quickly drops it upon SB's reply, noting that he's not doing the "post time between RVS posts thing again." This seems like acknowledging flimsy reasoning and retracting from a bad attack.
--) Following this, TCMT needles Swish slightly shortly before the Macius wagon explodes out of nowhere. TCMT skirts the Macius wagon, asking numerous questions and periodically coming down on Macius for various things, but never actually voting Macius. Once Macius claims, TCMT fishes in plain sight for how Macius plans to use his ability. I take issue with this because while I think that most agree that Macius either needs to be directed with his role (or told just not to use it) due to its inherent scummy nature / WIFOM-generating quality, asking Macius how he was planning to use it is a loaded question which, pending the reply, could easily lead to a mislynch if Macius is town. It also gives scum!TCMT insight into Macius's thoughts and reads.
--) The Macius wagon crumbles quickly after his claim, and TCMT quickly follows up by poking Kosa and Asenion for lurking. Asenion launches into an assault on Void shortly thereafter, but never gives a reply to TCMT. Kosa makes like one post before the Swish wagon gets rolling.
--) Historical/timeline note: Void starts the Swish wagon in #127, but his vote can't be moved. TCMT "officially" starts the wagon in #167 with a basically naked vote.
--) Historical note the 2nd: Here's Swish's TCMT "case." I hesitate to call it a case because he doesn't go too far in depth, but this indicates TCMT as Swish's leading scumspect.
@Swishh: Can I just call you "Swish" if I forget the double H? Do you have any prior experience or meta information on StormBlide, or do you just think he is scum for being too worried about his vote in the RVS?
Sure. Here Asenion expresses slight concern in my vote for SB.
Oh ok. I didn't read it as paranoid because he's got a good point that his RVS vote seemed serious.
Let's see, please explain (not you Rhand) how someone coming out and stating "X IS SCUM" is not something that should be clarified immediately as not serious?
That is something that will be used to lead to my lynch after either:
A) Clarification is requested and I cannot provide it and I clarify it was a joke
B) The other person gets wagoned for the situation and a claim is demanded, etc.
At what point should I have clarified to avoid it having been scummy/paranoid?
Unvote, Vote swishh for opportunism and putting me intoa lose-lose situation.
Let's see, please explain (not you Rhand) how someone coming out and stating "X IS SCUM" is not something that should be clarified immediately as not serious?
Well given that you clarified the Rhand vote 16 minutes later and not "immediately" I think you should go back in time and ask yesterday-StormBlind that question.
As for me, I saw the Rhand vote before you clarified it, and I thought "that's an RVS vote," not "why is he voting Rhand for real?"
You know what, I'm not doing the time-between-posts-during-RVS thing again (hi Tom). StormBlind's response strikes me as genuine.
I'm not completely sure what's happening here, but it almost seems like TMCT didn't see my comment while he was posting, saw it after he posted, then decided to use it against me as he ending up doing here:
All of the above. But you're making a scene right now and it's peculiar.
I unvoted because I realized RVS was over and I had an RVS vote on SB. Apparently TMCT thought that my finding SB's behavior peculiar was grounds to keep my RVS vote on him/her, which I found scummy:
78 is where everyone forgot about SB and focused on Macius. Let's observe the shift in attitudes after this point.
Post 95: where Void decides that I'm scum. Up until this point, Void has been irrelevant, having only posted a random vote and a vote on SB for the aforementioned interactions. In the same post, he decides that Macius is scum as well. According to Void, both me and Macius are scum.
SB is all too glad to have the heat off in 103/104, requesting a claim from Macius.
The votes continue to pile on Macius until he claims:
I wake up exactly where I thought I would be.
Why I did what I did, I have no clue, but alas im at L-2
I am a town thief. I can trade my powers once with someone else. They gain my powers and I gain theirs.
Void keeps claiming that we can test Macius's abilities, but he still hasn't explained how this proves his alignment. At this point the vote switches to me. He dodges this in 137, and Asenion calls Void out on this in 138. Void self-admittedly refused to respond to Asenion in 139. (By the way, based on these interactions, I would be very surprised if both Void and Asenion are scum). However, Kosakosa mentions the possibility of coaching in 157 between Asenion and Void, and Tom says maybe.
A whole bunch of posts ensue about exactly why Macius was even voted in the first place, which to me is irrelevant. To me it just looked like a pile of random votes and some BS after-the-fact reasons.
TMCT finally re-enters the picture when Void and I start interacting, votes me (167), is immediately barned by Arianhod (168).
Tom (1): AtheistGod
Arianrhod (1): Kosakosa
swishh (2): The Most Curious Thing, Arianrhod
Macius (3): Tom, Void, StormBlind
With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
This votecount is correct.
Void's vote has somehow been moved from me to Macius. This supports my town reads on Void and Macius. It looks like a scum is trying to use a town vote to 1) make the voted person appear scum, 2) add votes on a town, and 3) make a town look scummy for voting a town.
Ravel's Sonatine doesn't have a fourth movement, so until we get this vote phenomenon sorted out, I don't think anymore people should be claiming or getting pushed for a lynch.[/QUOTE]
--) Tom Daykills Swish, and TCMT quickly compliments the choice, while noting that Asenion looks good. He comments further,
Elaborate on this please? I don't like Asenion's recent posts, and it's almost like he's defending swishh so if swishh flips scum I fail to see how that would look better for Asenion.
swishh is a sinking ship. WIFOM makes this a bit muddy, but I find it less likely for scum that isn't new at Mafia to halfheartedly defend a sinking ship if that ship is also scum -- i.e. if swishh is scum I think Asenion would either have gotten on the ship right away or come out to strongly defend swishh outright and make the WIFOM even muddier.
Also, Asenion's reasoning for the mini-breadcrumb is genuine. The second part here comes from a town mindset that is more difficult to fabricate than the mindset of the first part:
The ONLY relevant part to the town is that I don't want to be redirected by our claimed redirector and that if I die in addition to the Night Kill the town will know why.
Scum have almost zero interest in looking for ways to help the town after their death, even while they're alive, so that's all the more difficult to fake.
This defense of Asenion vs Tom's pressure feels terrible. TCMT's reasoning for town!Asenion is based around Swish flipping scum, which, as we know, did not happen. Despite this, however, TCMT had just noted in #246 that:
Quote from TCMT »
(though if swishh flips town I don't think it has much bearing of Asenion's alignment).
TCMT never provides the reasoning for this side of the equation -- he just states it without backup. Why is TCMT so certain that Asenion is town?
--) Following the confirmation of Swish as town upon flip, TCMT posts the following:
I feel bad that the flavor made me sadder than swishh dying (sorry swishh)
Meh, but it saved a NK at any rate. Rereading now and unsure about Macius. Tom is now leaning town just on the merit of being a dayvig, not that I'd put it past Iso to include a scum dayvig.
The "saved a NK" thing has been teased out and discussed already, and I view it as a null tell. TCMT (in either alignment) is just noting that if Swish hadn't been DK'd, it would've gone:
Lynch Swish
Scum NK
Lynch X
Scum NK
Lynch Y
Scum NK
Instead, we get:
DK Swish
Lynch X
Scum NK
Lynch Y
Scum NK
Either way, the rest of this post is what I have a problem with here. "Tom's town because dayvig BUT WAIT...
...waffles."
This sounds like TCMT trying to build town cred for Tom, but not wanting to tie himself too closely / proclaim knowledge that he shouldn't have.
@Macius
Does the "trade" resolve before or after the target performs his Night action? Does the "trade" resolve before or after NKs? Please ask Iso if you don't know.
Also, this is great way to suspicion on to a Town player, me. I say we go ahead and lynch me. My Role is useful, but takes two Nights for it be fully useful. I have done plenty of scum hunting and helped the Town considerably at this point. Me flipping Town will nearly confirm Tom as scum. Also, if the Tom flips scum, then the Mafia are unlikely to have Day Chat since they Mafia Day Kill is typically used during LyLo for an easy win.
Please explain why Swishh flipping Town would not have a bearing on Asenion's alignment.
Because not every player's flip has an impact on every other player's alignment...? swishh flipping town doesn't make me think "Asenion looks more ______ now."
While it is obvious to me that my vote was seized it should not have been obvious to TMCT, but yet he responded with “Yeah.” If TMCT was Town he would have questioned my claim. Thinking more about it, I wouldn’t be surprised if TMCT had something to do with my vote.
I've had a town read on you the entire game. When you confirmed that the vote count was "wrong," I guessed that you legitimately had no idea and that the italic vote was someone else's doing.
I feel bad that the flavor made me sadder than swishh dying (sorry swishh)
Meh, but it saved a NK at any rate. Rereading now and unsure about Macius. Tom is now leaning town just on the merit of being a dayvig, not that I'd put it past Iso to include a scum dayvig.
Saved an NK? Subconscious slip here. TCMT meant to say it saved a “lynch” here, not an NK. But since TMCT posted NK it shows his scum mindset and that Swishh was being considered a NK. It’s possible that the scum team has Day Chat.
I'm assuming the confusion is stemming from "save" (keep for later) and "save" (rescue) being polysemic -- I used the latter ("it saved a NK from dying") and not the former ("it saved a NK from being used"). The sentence isn't a stellar display of English, but I don't get how you're extrapolating that it was a subconscious scumslip. Especially using the logic that swishh was being considered a NK.
* I don't like TMCT's #84. He seems to claim scum. His weird contradictory #53-54 and all his pushes of Macius without ever placing a vote are all off.
#84 is what it is. I don't see how that's me claiming scum.
Yeah, #53-54 was weird. The moment after posting #53 I remembered that I've attacked the time between posts on multiple occasions, and every time it was town that I was attacking. After self-invalidating that I had no reason to see StormBlind's response as anything but authentic.
I "voted" Macius in #99, when I said I wanted him to claim. According to Void he was at L-2 there (it was actually L-3), so I wouldn't actually vote him. I'd say the same for Guardman not voting in #97.
I think we need to direct Macius's action tonight. My preference is that we treat him as a vanilla and don't let him switch up roles.
If he's town and manages to steal a scum role, he gives scum the ability to steal one of our own roles the next night. If he's scum and we tell him not to use his ability, we'll know he's scum if he does use it.
Yes. With no further information, I don't want Macius using his ability.
Void's claim is verifiable, but only if he 1) does not disclose his target to ensure he lives through the NK and confirm Void's claim on the following Day or 2) if we protect his target in every possible way. Am I wrong here?
Like where in your head did it sound like a good idea to explain to the scum how they scum slipped so they could just make up an excuse instead of waiting for them to answer so we could catch them? Now instead of a guaranteed catch, we have a maybe.
I hate this post with every fiber of my being. "guaranteed catch" means +KK/Asenion scumbuddies.
Asenion, what was the point of laying a scum trap if it was a "guaranteed catch" to begin with?
@Rhand: I can put you at ease about Kosa at least. I think he's scummy enough to lynch. I'm not sure if I understand how saying I don't know someone's alignment yet is a scum slip though. I will address the first point when I have time, which will likely be Monday.
You also called Tom town just based on being a dayvig. What about his behaviour? Is that in line there as well?
I think Tom is more likely town than not based on being a dayvig, but that's only leaning. I have a mostly null/conflicting read on his behavior -- apart from the decision to shoot swishh, which I think is town (not necessarily the decision to shoot swishh without town consensus, but the decision to shoot swishh in particular).
That being said, if his multiple shots claim is accurate, I think he's definitely town or SK, not mafia.
So it seems you've got a lot of town reads, but no scum leads at the moment. Can you give me a few names that you're currently suspicious of and why?
Macius (his answer to my question above may or may not influence this; I won't say anything else right now).
Jonpike1. His #337 is a wolf-in-sheep's-clothing plan for directing a claimed town PR, with a stated town benefit hiding a greater mafia benefit beneath the surface. (I also don't like his reasoning for replacing out, but I can't talk about that at will.)
KK. Everything about his presence on the Void wagon is garbage, before and especially after the claim. He was also quieter than town-KK has been in the early game, which often comes from first-time scum.
Asenion. If KK is scum Asenion is scum along with him. Reasoning directly above.
SB is leaning into that list but I'll need to reread him again.
tl;dr from this post:
Void is town, Tom and Void are likely not both scum.
This line existing:
Quote from TCMT »
Because not every player's flip has an impact on every other player's alignment...? swishh flipping town doesn't make me think "Asenion looks more ______ now."
Despite skirting the Macius wagon, TCMT claims that he quote-quote "voted" Macius to get his claim in #99. TCMT also then smears Guardman for doing the same thing (albeit it before TCMT, in #97).
Attacks Kosa (who's already at claim range).
Attacks Asenion, reversing his opinion thereof again.
Notes that we should consider his vote on Kosa, but doesn't vote him (Kosa is at L-2).
TCMT then vanishes after Kosa claims Innocent Child / is confirmed town, and hasn't posted in 3 days.
@Arianrhod: What did you find scummy about Stormblind? Also, what can I call you for short? The spelling of your name is kind of tricky.
@WG: I don't know how, but you manage to have almost exactly opposite reads from mine. How did you come to those conclusions? Like how do two players read the same game and come up with opposite reads on every person. (Except Rhand, who I'm fairly neutral or leaning town on; and so are you.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
Iso, is the deadline set for May 6 at 12:01 AM or 11:59 PM?
Yes.
(It's set for whenever I wake up and/or get home on May 6th and can post a lynch scene.)
Could we please get that extended to May 7? Or at least hold off until 4 PM on May 6. I rarely post over the weekend and I'm going to be busy for the rest of this week at work. I just want to make sure I'll have a final chance to move my vote if we do run up on the deadline. Thanks.
Fine. I can extend the deadline by 1 day IFF activity keeps up.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Oh Tom had a daykill. That clears up most of my suspicion of him. (There's really no benefit to using it in that position as scum. He was in no position to need to offload his shot, and it's better to save it as scum.)
jegus void no why you do this @273
jegus everyone stop voting void
jegus everyone stop claiming
i hate you all
lol asenion over the KK "slip".
@Seppel: How is Macius town again?
@Stardust: You failed to make me sweat.
@Seppel: Iso told me to watch Gargoyles. I will do it sometime after I watch Digimon (because he wants me to watch that too).
I am in doubt about Seppel's proposition.
Reply to Ace coming up next, along with scumlist (since that's what he wants from me)
@WG: I don't know how, but you manage to have almost exactly opposite reads from mine. How did you come to those conclusions? Like how do two players read the same game and come up with opposite reads on every person. (Except Rhand, who I'm fairly neutral or leaning town on; and so are you.
CONCLUSIONS:
Rhand: He just feels...good. (Insert Time Lord heartbeat here.) I see no malice.
Tom: He is very likely town because as other alignments its better for him to keep his role hidden until he can surprise it out right before death or to win. This counts as SK too, which is why I do not accept Seppel's idea.
TMCT: I am wary as I mentioned earlier, but he has no malice that I can see.
Kosakosa: Mod-confirmed
Arianrhod: I mostly skimmed over his big posts and since that's most of what he has I have no real read.
Seppel: This is deffos Town!Seppel, and what's more it's the good Town!Seppel that's promoting discussion.
Guardman: No real malice that I can see.
Asenion: Scum with Macius, and a myriad of little awful posts. I can go into more deal if anyone requires, I'm just too lazy to grab specific posts.
Void: I'm pretty sure this is Town!Void. I feel fairly confident I could pick out Scum!Void, and this isn't it.
Macius: The post everyone called him out on is the one that makes me feel he is scum too.
StormBlind: He claimed scum.
Stardust: I agree with Seppel. He feels very townie.
WG: Mod-confirmed
@Arianrhod: What did you find scummy about Stormblind? Also, what can I call you for short? The spelling of your name is kind of tricky.
I'll still answer to Silver, if that works for you -- or just Arian will do. I don't think it's that tricky, but I'm also really used to it lol.
My issues with Stormblind align fairly closely with yours. The simple fact is that he HASN'T done much of anything -- and what he has done, as you've noted, is primarily pushing people to claim. However, I don't think that there's enough for a lynch yet on the basis of two things:
1. As I mentioned, he's said ITT that he played years ago, and things were done differently then (consider the L-1 vs L-2 situation with Macius earlier). Perhaps he's just sliding by while harvesting information Day 1, then he's going to start presenting cases once he's got some flips to work with Day 2.
2. More relevant to me personally, I got burned recently by pursuing Seppel (who flipped town) aggressively for basically exactly the same reasons that I would be pursuing Stormblind here. While I haven't liked his play, and I still find it scummy as all hell, I have to acknowledge the danger of my inability to read some/most players as well as I perhaps should. As such, Storm's someone that I'm keeping a close eye on -- because if I do see a legitimate scum slip I'll be all over that -- but at this time, I think that it's a better course of action to let him have a chance. I'm much more interested in TMCT...and Tom jumped up on my list after his awful naked vote on Stormblind.
@Wheat: I'm sorry if my posts are still too large for you -- I've really been trying to fix that =(
Could you at least bring yourself to look over my TCMT case on the last page, and tell me what you think?
Mostly out of frustration that nobody is taking Macius seriously anymore after a bad claim. It's like he claimed people realized they can test it and then they are satisfied with testing it when whether or not it is true is meaningless to his alignment. And one of the few people calling him town, Seppel, has refused to say why he is town despite me asking him repeatedly to say why, with me either being ignored or told to wait until tomorrow. Both of which are not acceptable responses. So yes I am going to be passive aggressive towards Seppel and his responses over this... but I think I just got side tracked and answered a different question... eh, whatever. Anyways I am active lurking to be passive aggressive towards Seppel so that he will get frustrated and actually tell me why he thinks Macius is town so I can either agree with him or tell him why he is wrong and we can go on to lynching Macius, except in the chance that Seppel can convince me via his reasoning that Macius is town.
That's a terrible excuse. Macius is obviously not getting run up right now, so why don't you contribute to one of the two wagons in progress?
Because I don't feel strongly enough about any other person to feel that my vote should go there. And the entire dissolving of Macius wagon is bad. And Macius is scum. And testing his claim is meaningless towards his alignment. And I feel like I am using a lot of simple, repetitive sentences. So I have no problem being the lone man on the Macius wagon, for it is where I feel I am best used serving as a reminder that everyone should be voting him.
A Guardman lynch sounds nice. Those last posts were written in a scum of consciousness method.
Do you believe this holds merit that GMan and Macius are scum together? Or that this would clear Macius if GMan was to flip scum?
Aenion's post barning you was awful. Not that my play has been any better this game. But if Asenion flips scum this would put Seppel into a more concrete Town read.
For one last time could you please say why you think Macius is town. You've been saying this since you replaced in and you never, ever, EVER have said why you think he is town. And you have refused to even answer why you think that way.
Kosa, I don't support how you are playing as a Confirmed Town. Just saying "na na boo boo, I can do whatever I want now" is not very helpful to the town. Naked votes are bad because they don't give us any information. Trying to coerce players into voting where you want because of pressure on them instead of scumhunting is not good for the town either.
Your opinions have extra weight because of your status, but if you act like this you will lose player's respect and your opinions won't be worth anything.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
How was that ranting? (Don't answer me until Seppel responds back to you)
It was a rant because it was? I think it hit all of the necessary requirements for a rant.
This could be an opinion perspective type of thing, but a rant usually has some kind of emotion behind it. Your "rant" read emotionless to me becasue of your word usage.
I'm not saying you are scummy for that reason, but looking at your tunneling and near, if not near, then full on refusal to accept Macius as possible Town is very telling. I can't recall a single post you have made this game that even hinted at Macius possibly being Town.
Kosa, I don't support how you are playing as a Confirmed Town. Just saying "na na boo boo, I can do whatever I want now" is not very helpful to the town. Naked votes are bad because they don't give us any information. Trying to coerce players into voting where you want because of pressure on them instead of scumhunting is not good for the town either.
Your opinions have extra weight because of your status, but if you act like this you will lose player's respect and your opinions won't be worth anything.
You actually believe that KK's naked vote has no reasoning behind? KK is confirmed Town and can believe what he wants to believe. There has been enough discussion about TMCT that KK placing a vote like that, as confirmed, Town is just fine. Why would KK need to give the reasoning that has been stated by others?
How was that ranting? (Don't answer me until Seppel responds back to you)
It was a rant because it was? I think it hit all of the necessary requirements for a rant.
This could be an opinion perspective type of thing, but a rant usually has some kind of emotion behind it. Your "rant" read emotionless to me becasue of your word usage.
I'm not saying you are scummy for that reason, but looking at your tunneling and near, if not near, then full on refusal to accept Macius as possible Town is very telling. I can't recall a single post you have made this game that even hinted at Macius possibly being Town.
I don't know I thought I had emotion in it (I at the very least felt emotion while typing it), but emotion is hard to get across through the internet. But now I think we are splitting hairs.
As for Macius, as I've told Seppel, if he, or anybody, can give me a convincing reason or proof that he is town I have no problem accepting it. But so far I haven't seen any, but I see a lot of scummy things.
How was that ranting? (Don't answer me until Seppel responds back to you)
It was a rant because it was? I think it hit all of the necessary requirements for a rant.
This could be an opinion perspective type of thing, but a rant usually has some kind of emotion behind it. Your "rant" read emotionless to me becasue of your word usage.
I'm not saying you are scummy for that reason, but looking at your tunneling and near, if not near, then full on refusal to accept Macius as possible Town is very telling. I can't recall a single post you have made this game that even hinted at Macius possibly being Town.
I don't know I thought I had emotion in it (I at the very least felt emotion while typing it), but emotion is hard to get across through the internet. But now I think we are splitting hairs.
As for Macius, as I've told Seppel, if he, or anybody, can give me a convincing reason or proof that he is town I have no problem accepting it. But so far I haven't seen any, but I see a lot of scummy things.
Fair enough about the "rant". I agree that discussing this further would not get us anywhere.
There is a reason why we test abilities here. If Macius is telling the truth, then I am willing to accept him as Town after that and only if his behavior holds for the remainder of the game. I do not have a Town read on Macius, but I do not have a Scum read on Macius either. The only thing you have done is called for Macius' lynch because of a CLAIM. I don't recall seeing any posts from you about Macius' behavior or anything else, after his claim. It's been "his claim is bad and needs to be lynched" from you. It would be better if you were looking into other avenue's, but you have been tunneling Macius for so long that your content is beginning to suffer from it as well. And your tunneling is not reading of someone who is Town.
I would add distracting from any lynch, but no one is really paying any attention to you because of your tunnel vision on Macius. And it's only now that I am seeing your play for what it actually is.
Fair enough about the "rant". I agree that discussing this further would not get us anywhere.
There is a reason why we test abilities here. If Macius is telling the truth, then I am willing to accept him as Town after that and only if his behavior holds for the remainder of the game. I do not have a Town read on Macius, but I do not have a Scum read on Macius either. The only thing you have done is called for Macius' lynch because of a CLAIM. I don't recall seeing any posts from you about Macius' behavior or anything else, after his claim. It's been "his claim is bad and needs to be lynched" from you. It would be better if you were looking into other avenue's, but you have been tunneling Macius for so long that your content is beginning to suffer from it as well. And your tunneling is not reading of someone who is Town.
I would add distracting from any lynch, but no one is really paying any attention to you because of your tunnel vision on Macius. And it's only now that I am seeing your play for what it actually is.
I don't see how testing his ability makes him anymore town though. This is a big sticking point for me because it doesn't make sense. But I've probably been beating it to death at the expense of why I initially found him scummy.
You can find my reasoning for initially finding him scummy in this post:
Guardman already knows four moves. Would you like to forget a move?
>No.
Would you like to lynch Macius instead of forgetting a move?
>Yes.
To concise it a bit I found/find Macius scummy because he did a very poor FoS, Triple Mudsland OMGUS at the people on his wagon, and tried to deflect off himself by self voting. All of these things hold true and none of them have been refuted. This was enough to get him into L-2. Yet other than his claim he did nothing to prove he shouldn't be lynched. And his claim was bad and really does not demonstrate anything about his alignment. But still people unvoted on the basis that his claim was testable.
Kosa, I don't support how you are playing as a Confirmed Town. Just saying "na na boo boo, I can do whatever I want now" is not very helpful to the town. Naked votes are bad because they don't give us any information. Trying to coerce players into voting where you want because of pressure on them instead of scumhunting is not good for the town either.
Your opinions have extra weight because of your status, but if you act like this you will lose player's respect and your opinions won't be worth anything.
While I respect your opinion, I have this big Mafia issue where I have to constantly remind myself that although I'm not as smart as I consider myself to be, I'm far from being as dumb as some people think I am.
I hope I'm never a Vig. I don't think I could ever resist the urge of AEzWoLGing unwilling players who like to generate artificial and unnecessary expectations like Seppel Void
Fair enough about the "rant". I agree that discussing this further would not get us anywhere.
There is a reason why we test abilities here. If Macius is telling the truth, then I am willing to accept him as Town after that and only if his behavior holds for the remainder of the game. I do not have a Town read on Macius, but I do not have a Scum read on Macius either. The only thing you have done is called for Macius' lynch because of a CLAIM. I don't recall seeing any posts from you about Macius' behavior or anything else, after his claim. It's been "his claim is bad and needs to be lynched" from you. It would be better if you were looking into other avenue's, but you have been tunneling Macius for so long that your content is beginning to suffer from it as well. And your tunneling is not reading of someone who is Town.
I would add distracting from any lynch, but no one is really paying any attention to you because of your tunnel vision on Macius. And it's only now that I am seeing your play for what it actually is.
I don't see how testing his ability makes him anymore town though. This is a big sticking point for me because it doesn't make sense. But I've probably been beating it to death at the expense of why I initially found him scummy.
You can find my reasoning for initially finding him scummy in this post:
Guardman already knows four moves. Would you like to forget a move?
>No.
Would you like to lynch Macius instead of forgetting a move?
>Yes.
To concise it a bit I found/find Macius scummy because he did a very poor FoS, Triple Mudsland OMGUS at the people on his wagon, and tried to deflect off himself by self voting. All of these things hold true and none of them have been refuted. This was enough to get him into L-2. Yet other than his claim he did nothing to prove he shouldn't be lynched. And his claim was bad and really does not demonstrate anything about his alignment. But still people unvoted on the basis that his claim was testable.
I am not seeing how his Macius' claim was bad. Please walk me through your thought process on why this is a bad claim. Act as if I don't know anything about this game.
To concise it a bit I found/find Macius scummy because he did a very poor FoS, Triple Mudsland OMGUS at the people on his wagon, and tried to deflect off himself by self voting. All of these things hold true and none of them have been refuted. This was enough to get him into L-2. Yet other than his claim he did nothing to prove he shouldn't be lynched. And his claim was bad and really does not demonstrate anything about his alignment. But still people unvoted on the basis that his claim was testable.
So you believe the three people who voted for Macius are town?
So you believe the three people who voted for Macius are town?
Rhand I have leaning town. Stardust I have no opinion on. Tom, I don't think he's scum, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out he's the SK or something along those lines.
But at the same time what I think they are is irrelevant. Macius clearly OMGUS Mudslinged onto his entire wagon at the time. It was a poor scattershot attempt at trying to take pressure off himself.
I was ready to jump in with this information and call out WG for it, but I wanted to your response first. However, your response as me questioning Wheat_Grinder. I had thought Wheat to be scum after his demand from you, but your response tells me you don't see Wheat as scum. If I am correct on this would you mind explaning why you see Wheat as Town?
GMan about responding, but why did you just overreact to Seppel about his information he is holding for Day 2?
I am not seeing how his Macius' claim was bad. Please walk me through your thought process on why this is a bad claim. Act as if I don't know anything about this game.
By, "I have no clue", I literally mean that I literally didnt even think when typing.... literally how I play mafia. Its why I dont play much, as it gets grating to others.
When he claims he plays off his entire wagon as he is the victim of himself, or at the very least innocent of his actions, exemplified by his "Why I did what I did, I have no clue" line. But in translation it reads "I can't defend my actions."
His ability I have no problem with, but I don't see how it affects any thought on his alignment. Even more because of that I don't see why it needs to be tested in the first place since if we think he is scum we should lynch him. If we think he is town then we should direct it (though my personal opinion is he keeps it in his pants if everybody thinks he is town).
@Seppel: I am changing my Stardust read to leaning scum after rereading Macius's claim. I'll explain in my next post after I respond to Void.
GMan about responding, but why did you just overreact to Seppel about his information he is holding for Day 2?
I don't see it as overreacting. I see it as me being fed up with him about this (though I've been fed up with this since like a couple of days ago). He has given me no reasons why we should wait on his info other than you'll see. And for the most part he has been ignoring or dismissing my requests for him to explain today. Given that Macius has claimed and should be the lynch (in my opinion) or at the very least one of the top candidates for lynching, he should explain why Macius is town today instead of waiting for tomorrow. It really bothers me and I am beginning to feel that this is no more than a ploy so that Macius won't be lynched today and that he doesn't have a reason at all.
Not that many of this think Macius is scum. It had nothing to do with claim for me. I would like Macius to be more active, but otherwise I have no negative reads on him. Why should we have to defend why someone is town? I just disagree with your points for why he is scum.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
By, "I have no clue", I literally mean that I literally didnt even think when typing.... literally how I play mafia. Its why I dont play much, as it gets grating to others.
I don't know what to do with this. Like, you're probably telling the truth, but you'll be so useless to the town that lynching you is only a loss because one of our own will get nightkilled. Do you play that way out of selfishness, so that you'll be harder to read regardless of your alignment? Or is this just a bunch of scum slips from a someone who doesn't care enough to even bother pretending to be town?
Unvote, but only because I'm not interested in seeing a lynch just yet. Macius, read my last post and respond to those questions.
This post must've gotten lost in the shuffle of Macius claiming because I am surprised nobody pointed out what is wrong with this post. The first sentence reads like Stardust calls Macius town, but the second paragraph reads like he thinks Macius is scum, but doesn't want to lynch him because, well I can't figure out the because.
The confusing part is I can't discern from it whether Stardust is scum trying poorly not to lynch a scumbuddy or scum who knows Macius is town, but wants to see a mislynch. But given this next post (and the behavioral evidence against Macius) I believe it scum trying not to lynch a scumbuddy.
Asenion, you're beating a dead horse here. Your answer is in Rhand's explanation. He covered every reason why Macius's post was scummy (more than the FoS, but that's the obvious flag). That's why Macius got voted. Why he got pushed to claim range is another question, but I had no problem leaving my vote there at the time given his follow-up posts. I plan on putting my vote back there to end the Day since I doubt there will be anyone I want to lynch more later.
Here is a very passive post that has Stardust saying that Macius was scummy enough for his vote and scummy enough that he is the one he wants to lynch today, but not scummy enough for a claim. This goes back to the other post I quoted where Stardust is clearly confused on what alignment he should think Macius is and paints a picture to me that says Macius and Stardust are scumbuddies.
Also I am upgrading my read to full scum since I did this post and am willing to lynch either Stardust or Macius today as I believe they are scumbuddies.
Asenion looks a hair better to me after his content post, but it's more to the tune of knocking him from "scum" to "leaning scum." I'm dumbfounded as to how he's seeing Void as potentially scummy, and I also disagree that Tom is anything approaching "pseudo-confirmed not-scum." The only thing that we know about Tom is that he is a probable-repeatable shooting role (vig, sk, or other). I can envision a possible world where scum!Tom shoots town!swishh for cred easily. We just don't have the facts where Tom is concerned yet.
However, TCMT tops my list.
--) Asenion and TCMT have this weird conversation towards the end of RVS about the extended twilight present in the game. Asenion looks bad for fishing about it, but TCMT's comment looks worse to me. Swishh asks if there's any reason to speculate, and TCMT quickly and immediately replies:
Kosa notes that there was a reason for Basic 70, and then the topic is dropped. While this could be read as TCMT wanting to call out Asenion's fishing, it could also be interpreted as coaching a scumbuddy, OR as acknowledging that he knows more about the twilight's role in the game that he's telling: potential scum theme, perhaps?
--) TCMT then applies some light pressure to Stormblind about his RVS vote, and quickly drops it upon SB's reply, noting that he's not doing the "post time between RVS posts thing again." This seems like acknowledging flimsy reasoning and retracting from a bad attack.
--) Following this, TCMT needles Swish slightly shortly before the Macius wagon explodes out of nowhere. TCMT skirts the Macius wagon, asking numerous questions and periodically coming down on Macius for various things, but never actually voting Macius. Once Macius claims, TCMT fishes in plain sight for how Macius plans to use his ability. I take issue with this because while I think that most agree that Macius either needs to be directed with his role (or told just not to use it) due to its inherent scummy nature / WIFOM-generating quality, asking Macius how he was planning to use it is a loaded question which, pending the reply, could easily lead to a mislynch if Macius is town. It also gives scum!TCMT insight into Macius's thoughts and reads.
--) The Macius wagon crumbles quickly after his claim, and TCMT quickly follows up by poking Kosa and Asenion for lurking. Asenion launches into an assault on Void shortly thereafter, but never gives a reply to TCMT. Kosa makes like one post before the Swish wagon gets rolling.
--) Historical/timeline note: Void starts the Swish wagon in #127, but his vote can't be moved. TCMT "officially" starts the wagon in #167 with a basically naked vote.
--) Historical note the 2nd: Here's Swish's TCMT "case." I hesitate to call it a case because he doesn't go too far in depth, but this indicates TCMT as Swish's leading scumspect.
Ravel's Sonatine doesn't have a fourth movement, so until we get this vote phenomenon sorted out, I don't think anymore people should be claiming or getting pushed for a lynch.[/QUOTE]
--) Tom Daykills Swish, and TCMT quickly compliments the choice, while noting that Asenion looks good. He comments further,
This defense of Asenion vs Tom's pressure feels terrible. TCMT's reasoning for town!Asenion is based around Swish flipping scum, which, as we know, did not happen. Despite this, however, TCMT had just noted in #246 that:
TCMT never provides the reasoning for this side of the equation -- he just states it without backup. Why is TCMT so certain that Asenion is town?
--) Following the confirmation of Swish as town upon flip, TCMT posts the following:
The "saved a NK" thing has been teased out and discussed already, and I view it as a null tell. TCMT (in either alignment) is just noting that if Swish hadn't been DK'd, it would've gone:
Lynch Swish
Scum NK
Lynch X
Scum NK
Lynch Y
Scum NK
Instead, we get:
DK Swish
Lynch X
Scum NK
Lynch Y
Scum NK
Either way, the rest of this post is what I have a problem with here. "Tom's town because dayvig BUT WAIT...
...waffles."
This sounds like TCMT trying to build town cred for Tom, but not wanting to tie himself too closely / proclaim knowledge that he shouldn't have.
--) This is TCMT's last content post:
tl;dr from this post:
Void is town, Tom and Void are likely not both scum.
This line existing:
Despite skirting the Macius wagon, TCMT claims that he quote-quote "voted" Macius to get his claim in #99. TCMT also then smears Guardman for doing the same thing (albeit it before TCMT, in #97).
Attacks Kosa (who's already at claim range).
Attacks Asenion, reversing his opinion thereof again.
Notes that we should consider his vote on Kosa, but doesn't vote him (Kosa is at L-2).
TCMT then vanishes after Kosa claims Innocent Child / is confirmed town, and hasn't posted in 3 days.
This concludes my case: Unvote; Vote TCMT
@WG: I don't know how, but you manage to have almost exactly opposite reads from mine. How did you come to those conclusions? Like how do two players read the same game and come up with opposite reads on every person. (Except Rhand, who I'm fairly neutral or leaning town on; and so are you.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Fine. I can extend the deadline by 1 day IFF activity keeps up.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
!!!!!!!!!!
Stormblind just claimed scum.
jegus void no why you do this @273
jegus everyone stop voting void
jegus everyone stop claiming
i hate you all
lol asenion over the KK "slip".
@Seppel: How is Macius town again?
@Stardust: You failed to make me sweat.
@Seppel: Iso told me to watch Gargoyles. I will do it sometime after I watch Digimon (because he wants me to watch that too).
I am in doubt about Seppel's proposition.
Reply to Ace coming up next, along with scumlist (since that's what he wants from me)
CONCLUSIONS:
Rhand: He just feels...good. (Insert Time Lord heartbeat here.) I see no malice.
Tom: He is very likely town because as other alignments its better for him to keep his role hidden until he can surprise it out right before death or to win. This counts as SK too, which is why I do not accept Seppel's idea.
TMCT: I am wary as I mentioned earlier, but he has no malice that I can see.
Kosakosa: Mod-confirmed
Arianrhod: I mostly skimmed over his big posts and since that's most of what he has I have no real read.
Seppel: This is deffos Town!Seppel, and what's more it's the good Town!Seppel that's promoting discussion.
Guardman: No real malice that I can see.
Asenion: Scum with Macius, and a myriad of little awful posts. I can go into more deal if anyone requires, I'm just too lazy to grab specific posts.
Void: I'm pretty sure this is Town!Void. I feel fairly confident I could pick out Scum!Void, and this isn't it.
Macius: The post everyone called him out on is the one that makes me feel he is scum too.
StormBlind: He claimed scum.
Stardust: I agree with Seppel. He feels very townie.
WG: Mod-confirmed
Unvote, Vote: Stormblind
...On the brighter side, I'm indeed unlynchable, so there's always that 25% chance. Who knows.
This is one hell of an overreaction to a clearly sarcastic post.
This is one hell of an overreaction to a clearly sarcastic post.
I'll still answer to Silver, if that works for you -- or just Arian will do. I don't think it's that tricky, but I'm also really used to it lol.
My issues with Stormblind align fairly closely with yours. The simple fact is that he HASN'T done much of anything -- and what he has done, as you've noted, is primarily pushing people to claim. However, I don't think that there's enough for a lynch yet on the basis of two things:
1. As I mentioned, he's said ITT that he played years ago, and things were done differently then (consider the L-1 vs L-2 situation with Macius earlier). Perhaps he's just sliding by while harvesting information Day 1, then he's going to start presenting cases once he's got some flips to work with Day 2.
2. More relevant to me personally, I got burned recently by pursuing Seppel (who flipped town) aggressively for basically exactly the same reasons that I would be pursuing Stormblind here. While I haven't liked his play, and I still find it scummy as all hell, I have to acknowledge the danger of my inability to read some/most players as well as I perhaps should. As such, Storm's someone that I'm keeping a close eye on -- because if I do see a legitimate scum slip I'll be all over that -- but at this time, I think that it's a better course of action to let him have a chance. I'm much more interested in TMCT...and Tom jumped up on my list after his awful naked vote on Stormblind.
@Wheat: I'm sorry if my posts are still too large for you -- I've really been trying to fix that =(
Could you at least bring yourself to look over my TCMT case on the last page, and tell me what you think?
Unvote, Vote: Asenion then because that was the only thing to make me think Stormblind was scum. I actually had a town read before hand.
@Seppel: Why is Macius town?
That Macius is the correct lynch for today.
Why are you active-lurking?
Mostly out of frustration that nobody is taking Macius seriously anymore after a bad claim. It's like he claimed people realized they can test it and then they are satisfied with testing it when whether or not it is true is meaningless to his alignment. And one of the few people calling him town, Seppel, has refused to say why he is town despite me asking him repeatedly to say why, with me either being ignored or told to wait until tomorrow. Both of which are not acceptable responses. So yes I am going to be passive aggressive towards Seppel and his responses over this... but I think I just got side tracked and answered a different question... eh, whatever. Anyways I am active lurking to be passive aggressive towards Seppel so that he will get frustrated and actually tell me why he thinks Macius is town so I can either agree with him or tell him why he is wrong and we can go on to lynching Macius, except in the chance that Seppel can convince me via his reasoning that Macius is town.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Because I don't feel strongly enough about any other person to feel that my vote should go there. And the entire dissolving of Macius wagon is bad. And Macius is scum. And testing his claim is meaningless towards his alignment. And I feel like I am using a lot of simple, repetitive sentences. So I have no problem being the lone man on the Macius wagon, for it is where I feel I am best used serving as a reminder that everyone should be voting him.
Is Macius your buddy? Because you sure make it look that way.
Seppel
While I agree that my post covering Asenion Re: Waffle was not my normal run of mill aggressive post it still did cover what needed to be said.
That being said, expect more content coming from me soon.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Do you believe this holds merit that GMan and Macius are scum together? Or that this would clear Macius if GMan was to flip scum?
Aenion's post barning you was awful. Not that my play has been any better this game.
What does scum of consciousness even mean? Are you saying that me ranting is scummy?
Macius is town.
I'm saying that your "rant" was scummy.
Unvote
Vote TMCT
It was a rant because it was? I think it hit all of the necessary requirements for a rant.
For one last time could you please say why you think Macius is town. You've been saying this since you replaced in and you never, ever, EVER have said why you think he is town. And you have refused to even answer why you think that way.
How was it scummy?
@Kosa: I really have no interest in seeing TMCT claim.
Your opinions have extra weight because of your status, but if you act like this you will lose player's respect and your opinions won't be worth anything.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
This could be an opinion perspective type of thing, but a rant usually has some kind of emotion behind it. Your "rant" read emotionless to me becasue of your word usage.
I'm not saying you are scummy for that reason, but looking at your tunneling and near, if not near, then full on refusal to accept Macius as possible Town is very telling. I can't recall a single post you have made this game that even hinted at Macius possibly being Town.
You actually believe that KK's naked vote has no reasoning behind? KK is confirmed Town and can believe what he wants to believe. There has been enough discussion about TMCT that KK placing a vote like that, as confirmed, Town is just fine. Why would KK need to give the reasoning that has been stated by others?
I don't know I thought I had emotion in it (I at the very least felt emotion while typing it), but emotion is hard to get across through the internet. But now I think we are splitting hairs.
As for Macius, as I've told Seppel, if he, or anybody, can give me a convincing reason or proof that he is town I have no problem accepting it. But so far I haven't seen any, but I see a lot of scummy things.
Fair enough about the "rant". I agree that discussing this further would not get us anywhere.
There is a reason why we test abilities here.
I would add distracting from any lynch, but no one is really paying any attention to you because of your tunnel vision on Macius. And it's only now that I am seeing your play for what it actually is.
I don't see how testing his ability makes him anymore town though. This is a big sticking point for me because it doesn't make sense. But I've probably been beating it to death at the expense of why I initially found him scummy.
You can find my reasoning for initially finding him scummy in this post:
To concise it a bit I found/find Macius scummy because he did a very poor FoS, Triple Mudsland OMGUS at the people on his wagon, and tried to deflect off himself by self voting. All of these things hold true and none of them have been refuted. This was enough to get him into L-2. Yet other than his claim he did nothing to prove he shouldn't be lynched. And his claim was bad and really does not demonstrate anything about his alignment. But still people unvoted on the basis that his claim was testable.
While I respect your opinion, I have this big Mafia issue where I have to constantly remind myself that although I'm not as smart as I consider myself to be, I'm far from being as dumb as some people think I am.
You said Macius was town. You also said you had a reason you were willing to share if asked for it.
I think he's scum. I'm interested in hearing your reasoning as to why he's town, because it contradicts my thoughts on him.
I hope I'm never a Vig. I don't think I could ever resist the urge of AEzWoLGing unwilling players who like to generate artificial and unnecessary expectations like SeppelI am not seeing how his Macius' claim was bad. Please walk me through your thought process on why this is a bad claim. Act as if I don't know anything about this game.
So you believe the three people who voted for Macius are town?
I also said:
Rhand I have leaning town. Stardust I have no opinion on. Tom, I don't think he's scum, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out he's the SK or something along those lines.
But at the same time what I think they are is irrelevant. Macius clearly OMGUS Mudslinged onto his entire wagon at the time. It was a poor scattershot attempt at trying to take pressure off himself.
[/QUOTE]
That is not acceptable. Now is the time to say why.
@Void: I'll be answering your question in my next post.
I was ready to jump in with this information and call out WG for it, but I wanted to your response first. However, your response as me questioning Wheat_Grinder. I had thought Wheat to be scum after his demand from you, but your response tells me you don't see Wheat as scum. If I am correct on this would you mind explaning why you see Wheat as Town?
GMan
When he claims he plays off his entire wagon as he is the victim of himself, or at the very least innocent of his actions, exemplified by his "Why I did what I did, I have no clue" line. But in translation it reads "I can't defend my actions."
His ability I have no problem with, but I don't see how it affects any thought on his alignment. Even more because of that I don't see why it needs to be tested in the first place since if we think he is scum we should lynch him. If we think he is town then we should direct it (though my personal opinion is he keeps it in his pants if everybody thinks he is town).
@Seppel: I am changing my Stardust read to leaning scum after rereading Macius's claim. I'll explain in my next post after I respond to Void.
I don't see it as overreacting. I see it as me being fed up with him about this (though I've been fed up with this since like a couple of days ago). He has given me no reasons why we should wait on his info other than you'll see. And for the most part he has been ignoring or dismissing my requests for him to explain today. Given that Macius has claimed and should be the lynch (in my opinion) or at the very least one of the top candidates for lynching, he should explain why Macius is town today instead of waiting for tomorrow. It really bothers me and I am beginning to feel that this is no more than a ploy so that Macius won't be lynched today and that he doesn't have a reason at all.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
This post must've gotten lost in the shuffle of Macius claiming because I am surprised nobody pointed out what is wrong with this post. The first sentence reads like Stardust calls Macius town, but the second paragraph reads like he thinks Macius is scum, but doesn't want to lynch him because, well I can't figure out the because.
The confusing part is I can't discern from it whether Stardust is scum trying poorly not to lynch a scumbuddy or scum who knows Macius is town, but wants to see a mislynch. But given this next post (and the behavioral evidence against Macius) I believe it scum trying not to lynch a scumbuddy.
Here is a very passive post that has Stardust saying that Macius was scummy enough for his vote and scummy enough that he is the one he wants to lynch today, but not scummy enough for a claim. This goes back to the other post I quoted where Stardust is clearly confused on what alignment he should think Macius is and paints a picture to me that says Macius and Stardust are scumbuddies.
Also I am upgrading my read to full scum since I did this post and am willing to lynch either Stardust or Macius today as I believe they are scumbuddies.