Xyre should not have claimed, Zinda should not claim. The fact that my town reads are all pushing for yet another claim at the eleventh hour is making me very uneasy.
I now fear being wrong about everything so far.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Caex and Xyre have effectively CC'd each other. Part of me just wants to lynch Caex since I do still think he's scum... but he's not roleblockable. If he survives the night he's either scum or town with a result. Handing the mafia our cop as today's lynch is not something I'm willing to risk when they'll have to kill him if he's town. Xyre can wait until we know Caex's alignment. Since I believe Caex to be scum, for the moment I believe Xyre is town. Unless we have two info roles. That will hopefully become apparent as the game moves forward.
If you're saying that they CC'ed each other, how do you rationalize Xyre wanting to leave Caex alive?
And there goes all my town read of Seppel down the drain. Seriously that you want to see the tenth claim toDay when we already have perfectly fine options? Not only behavioral but a dichotomy (Caex, Xyre), and a low risk VT claim.
I'm vote hopping because a lynch is better than nothing and we don't have the luxury of time for fence sitting and screwing around. I also don't see a dichotomy between Xyre and Caex since I think Caex is lying. Xyre could very well be telling the truth about his claim and still be scum.
There's no dichotomy because Caex is lying? You should be saying "There's no dichotomy because both of them are lying". So how sure are you that both of them are scum? If there's a good chance that one of them is town neither of them should be lynched. It will become clear with time.
From Iso: "Xyre's question doesn't make any sense.
Obviously Seppel would have to suppose that the Watcher is town to make the theoretical of "the town has these power roles, therefore is overpowered, meaning something is wrong" to work.
Also, @Seppel: It was a Cop, not a Tracker. Ataghan had the Tracker.
Xyre's #592 reads like he KNOWS Vox is town."
Since both me and Iso believe Cyouni is scum let's get that wagon rolling. A lot of people have expressed suspicion, and we need to go somewhere that will give us actual results. A lurker lynch will net us zero behavioral information, so Zinda is off the table for a lynch today. Unvote, Vote: Cyouni.
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I would love for you, DYH, to explain to me how the scum meta you describe for me jives (jibes?) with my scum play in Intrigue Mafia. I would also like to hear how your description of my scum game doesn't match my town play in Ozone Underground. I'd also like to hear Xyre's opinion on that last point.
Go ahead. Take a look. I don't think I have more than 30 posts in any of them, it won't take you long.
It's just a lazy meta argument, especially since there's loads of observations and good notes present in my catchup posts that pretty much nobody responded to. The reason I've been absent from this game isn't because I'm scum, it's because I just don't have any time to play (or much will to play. I was serious about quitting, you know - I just didn't want to go out with such a pathetic performance as Cyberspace Mafia.)
DYH only knows how to repeat "Led Zeppelin" over and over again. That game started nearly four years ago. Things have changed. I haven't been prolific in a game since StarCraft Mafia, and it seems unlikely that I ever will be again - for better or for worse.
I've not given much content, but what I have posted has been worth reading. If you're voting me for what's in there, please let me know what exactly you take exception to. If you're voting me for not posting, I have four words for you: get used to it. This isn't going to change. This is my new game, and I know it sucks, but I'm just not able to do more at this point in time.
My only comment would be that you may be right, but that's always the case. Every scum move in this game is calculated. A lot of town moves are too. Debating whether or not something is calculated will lead us nowhere. All I can really say is that reading through his posts I never got the feeling that he had an underlying motivation. They are calculated (or at least carefully arranged)... but does that make them scummy?
Townies generally don't make calculated posts in the same sense mafia make calculated posts. My point is he isn't the kind of player who would make those kinds of posts as town, and especially not the kind of player who would have such a fluid mindset that he'd contradict himself in his own post.
But if your gut is telling you Wessel is town, then by all means, ignore all the effort I put into this.
WoLG, mate... are you, like, okay? I mean, if you're hearing voices, that's totally cool, man, but, y'know, maybe you'd like to, like, talk to somebody about that?
I can support a Cyouni lynch, too. I don't agree that it's necessarily going to give more information than a zindabad lynch, but I think they're both likely scum, so :thumbsup:.
The difference, zinda, is in those games, it felt like you were doing more than just giving a PBPA every two weeks. You actually made posts with responsive content.
Put your things together townies, we are not lynching anyone else toDay that's not named Caex, Xyre or Voxx. Be reasonable we are under a deadline here and certainly one of Caex and Xyre is scum (probably both but I digress).
@Zinda Actually I know that you also lurk as town and it's unfortunate for you because I greatly dislike lurkers and I have a gun, so if you are town please put your thing together sooner than later. I'm not saying I'm shooting you, and this is not a threat anyway and I do like your content when you provide it. Btw why did you vote me back there?
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Also one of my mates in Ender was a watcher, so the argument "there can't be a scum watcher" is asinine.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
@DRey: Regardless of how strongly you feel that one of them are scum, lynching any of the claimed power roles today is a bad call. We will be in a much stronger position tomorrow with them going into the night and giving us more information.
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Seriously that you never heard of a dichotomy before? Are you aware that toMorrow they will be both alive because they are both scum right?
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
The difference, zinda, is in those games, it felt like you were doing more than just giving a PBPA every two weeks. You actually made posts with responsive content.
I don't know how much "responsive content" I'm supposed to give when I haven't caught up. I hate it when people do that as I think it makes their posts useless as they aren't coming from a position of complete information.
@DRey: My reasons were all present in the notes that I posted. Here's the relevant post. I voted you because you were acting scummy and claimed 1-shot vig (aka toughguy), so you jumped to #1 priority over Caex. That has changed as I continued to re-read, which brings me to my next answer...
In fact even if we lynch one of them and we miss I can guarantee we will get one scum toNight because of my vig shot. Lynching one of the dichotomy is the correct procedure imho.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
@DRey: My reasons were all present in the notes that I posted. Here's the relevant post. I voted you because you were acting scummy and claimed 1-shot vig (aka toughguy), so you jumped to #1 priority over Caex. That has changed as I continued to re-read, which brings me to my next answer...
Actually that's not what I read at all, from my pov your notes were like "yeah, drey looks town", "even more town", "townier" then "wait, drey claimed a confirmable town-exclusive role, vote drey".
Are you also one of the idiots guys that really are proposing the scum have one toughguy in a ****in mini? Have you all no faith in Eco or AI? Seriously this is insulting to me. I've been the town, towniest of the town with a ultra town role and people still vote me? What a debacle. And they say I'm the bad player.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Are you also one of the idiots guys that really are proposing the scum have one toughguy in a ****in mini? Have you all no faith in Eco or AI? Seriously this is insulting to me. I've been the town, towniest of the town with a ultra town role and people still vote me? What a debacle. And they say I'm the bad player.
Calm down.
1.) You haven't proven you have a shot yet, so you could still be a standard scum lying about the extra shot.
2.) You don't have perfect information about the set up, this could be a really over powered game, but as long as it's balanced in between the two teams, that's not unheard of.
3.) No you haven't. You've said a lot of things that have proven, to me at least, that you are town. But you also have said quite a bit of scummy things and advocated actions that the town should take that could have a scum agenda.
So get off your high horse and drop the tone and threats.
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259 (DRey): How does your opinion of Cyouni's post change knowing now that, nearly 250 posts later, "on the verge of a lynch" Caex is still alive? You do have an excellent point about leaving Caex alive, having someone watch him, and netting either a cop investigation or a free scum - but that's contingent on us having a watcher at all and that watcher being town.
"DRey has an excellent point so he's good" This is certainly not an attack to me, also red alert for mentioning the possibility of a scum watcher. This is not a thought a townie with no information about the setup would have imho. If Xyre does flip scum watcher I know who to shoot toNight.
297 (DRey): Combined with other posts he's been making around this timeframe, I think DRey is losing the plot a bit. He has absolutely nothing, and I mean nothing, on Xyre. I can't conceive that even DRey would be stubborn enough, as town, to repeatedly insist that one of his interlocutors is scum when giving no evidence at all, and in fact not even trying to engage that player (hence not reading his "walls.")
I do agree I had nothing against Xyre back there, not because I was lying but because I had not presented my case so far (for lack of time and reactions), thing I have amended later to great success, and you know this, because when you made this post you had already read it. In the end this reason is bogus. Also you already know the walls have nothing to do about this as I've explained at lengths so this also makes me think you are just creating reasons out of thin air.
305 (DRey): "Have you ever seen a townie with convictions before"? Urghhh....feeling a bit sick to my stomach now.
Vague, completely meaningless comment. My post oozed with towniness and I have great pride of it. I can also quote all your posts and say "Urghhh....feeling a bit sick to my stomach now" about them and you know what? It would be vague and meaningless because it explain nothing.
337 (DRey): But now, after all of that, we actually have to lynch DRey after all.
I know that doesn't really suffice but I'll have to finish later. In the unlikely event that I don't finish before deadline, here is my vote: DRey.
Naked vote.
I can't conceive that even Zinda would be stubborn enough, as town, to create such weak, ill reasoned reasons to vote me, worse still, it comes after another pbpa (before my claim) where we pushed quite a clear "DRey is obvtown" read. It all looks fabricated to prevent the vig from reaching the night.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
I support a Cyouni lynch or a Xyre lynch. I think I prefer Xyre at this point, simply because he's said so much this game that the interactions would be useful if he flips scum. Cyouni has just kind of 'existed' with his strongest statements coming recently when Xyre came under heavy pressure.
Convenient that.
I do not support a Caex lynch, and can't quite wrap my mind around why people would want to lynch an un-cc'd cop on day one. Or vig him.
I think the best route is something along these lines:
Lynch Xyre.
Vig Cyouni or possibly Zindabad.
If Xyre is town, cop one of Wessel, Seppel, DYH.
If Xyre is scum, cop one of Seppel, DYH, Zionite or Stardust.
Calm down.
1.) You haven't proven you have a shot yet, so you could still be a standard scum lying about the extra shot.
2.) You don't have perfect information about the set up, this could be a really over powered game, but as long as it's balanced in between the two teams, that's not unheard of.
3.) No you haven't. You've said a lot of things that have proven, to me at least, that you are town. But you also have said quite a bit of scummy things and advocated actions that the town should take that could have a scum agenda.
So get off your high horse and drop the tone and threats.
1)Indeed.
2)No it cannot, a vig, a cop and a watcher are the three most powerful roles for town, Eco knows this, he taught me this! (oh god, how I wanted to be able to show our QT about a review we did together). So unless the mafia is comprised of three "unkillable godfather ninja toughguy" it can't be done.
3)No one is proven town until the flip. No matter what. This is the only thing I believe in mafia. No matter how strong I think someone is town or scum I know I can be wrong, so only because you think I've said scummy things from your POV it doesn't mean I'm, because I'm not. I don't think I've said anything scummy and I've explained all my thought processes so far, but if you still think I'm scum just wait until my flip.
----
In the end, I have two question for everyone, please answer in your next post, you don't even need to give reasons, just an answer.
-Considering mafia design best practices, razor, behaviour how likely do you think at least one of Caex and Xyre is scum?
-Imagine there's a dichotomy in a mafia game, how fast it should be solved? toDay, toMorrow or the day after toMorrow?
My answers.
-100%
-As soon as possible, therefore toDay.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
How many hours do we still have? Are you guys aware we are going into a no-lynch correct?
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
There's some weird defensiveness here saying that Stardust would be an easy mislynch, but I don't see how that's possible given he doesn't have near enough votes. It's more likely he's throwing around the word "mislynch" to fearmonger. Reserves the right to vote Caex despite reading him as town.
This is not what my post said. At all. You're right that I had no nonCaex votes at the time, and no votes at all when I initially thought Caex might be trying to pull something. What I was talking about though was that I suspected to garner some attention later with my "slips", which I thought was an inevitability based on Giant Robots. I thought Caex might have been setting himself up for that same inevitability.
Later on you say that I was reading Caex as town. I wasn't. I just did my homework. When Caex first threw my name into his list, that struck me. So I checked back to see if I could catch scum. I decided that his other posts generally appeared to be town motivated, so I questioned him about it instead of pouncing, expecting some kind of reasoning. What I got was shocking, but I didn't want to just throw back some OMGUS, so I thought about it instead. I wasn't reserving the right to vote Caex later so much as basically indicating that I planned to reassess that post once I was better able to understand where it was coming from. That post now reads to me as very scummy, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't confounding my own reads with OMGUS.
This is a big deal: he calls me town but he's "not really too sure", which reserves his right to jump on my wagon whenever he wants.
You're like Che. I had an okay feeling about you, but my notes weren't really able to back it up. When I wrote that post I had just reread you and couldn't quite nail down a read. I wanted more.
Yes. I was actively trying to figure out both yourself and Xyre. What you quoted there is me quizzing Xyre to better figure out where he was coming from.
Finally falls on the side of "Zionite is scum", and even accuses me of bussing Caex. It's practically impossible that I'm bussing Caex if you look at the post history; there were about a dozen times I could have gotten out of voting him easily but I've called his claim into question several times rather than going along with it, and I still think we should lynch him.
I was voting Caex since early on too. Why is it impossible for you to be bussing Caex when you're essentially accusing me of the same thing?
You thinking we should still lynch Caex is just terrible and I find it really amusing that you are now holding it up to prove your towniness. You have nothing to lose by pushing that agenda as scum: either you know Caex is scum and can gladly say, "See! Lynching the unCC'd cop was a great idea!" or you successfully get the town to lynch their cop.
The most bull part of this post is the reasoning he presents for voting me. There is literally a wealth of content to analyze, and he chooses the sarcastic sentence as the sole reason to vote me because it "sounds desperate". This is a poor shift in attention given his previous posts and could easily be scum motivated.
This is funny; it sounds like "uh yeah, I knew that. Everyone knows that...hrm." So kpaca is now on Stardust's "watch list".
Not really. If I suspected him more strongly I'd be questioning him immediately. Instead I thought I'd wait for a bit and see where else he decided to get involved (see the strike-through'd bit of this post). I get the feeling that kpaca can't be caught with questions. You've got to piece together his choices of what to hit and pass on.
Never explains the implosion, implores DRey to change his mind about me.
No. Not imploring him to change his mind, imploring him to explain his scummy post. This was a big red flag for DRey (and I reference it in my case against him later).
Seems like a total nothing question to try to support the idea that he suspects kpaca. I don't see how kpaca's answer could be of any use in determining his alignment.
Small commitments. That's what I wanted to see from kpaca. Like I said, I was piecing together his puzzle, but I hadn't yet gotten any proper scum vibes from him, so I figured I had time to wait. There was never any real suspicion.
Apparently explaining your vote and trying to persuade others to lynch your suspect is too much work amid all the other investigators. The sarcastic statement was plenty of reason for him and he doesn't think it's necessary for him to push me further.
Xyre was doing an adequate job, as far as I was concerned. He caught everything I caught and more, until the end.
This is seriously his explanation for the one reason he gave to vote me, besides me "not answering his questions" during my word war with Xyre. This is not a reason a townie presents for voting a suspect.
Correction: not the only reason. It's what I caught that Xyre didn't. It was one of two additional things I brought up at the time (though you neglect to mention the second - forgiving Caex - from the same post).
Makes sense but I'm not going to unvote you until I digest it. This is what I was referring to when I said later that you'd felt somewhat townie in your dealings with me.
Fence sitting on Caex. Sounds like a middle point between "Zionite is bussing Caex" to "Zionite is scum voting town Caex", but doesn't rectify the contradiction between us both seeing the same scum reads from Caex to suspect him in the first place.
Umm, I never even mentioned you here... Why so paranoid?
Anyway, I was unsure. Like I said there, I haven't yet been in a game where scum false-claimed. I needed to think more about what that all meant and how to proceed.
Which is it: Caex's posts are town, or you're not comfortable lynching an unCC'd PR?
Both. If he'd claimed vanilla I would have lynched him for his previous play alone. Because he was acting at least a little bit townie, I was coming around to the possibility that I was wrong about him. He should be allowed to live tonight.
Reserving the right to hop off my wagon when it's convenient because of more mysterious town reads.
Not reserving the right. Being conflicted in my read (based on those couple townie posts I referenced above). Don't worry, you've since made it pretty clear that those few posts are outliers.
DRey is "confusing" (a non-statement), and Xyre is now on his radar for wanting to kill the cop. Contradictory to his own statements that Caex is bussing and scummy (but un-CC'd so apparently untouchable).
Despite Caex being his strongest scum read and implemented everywhere to prove connections, he's not willing to lynch him today and is totally buying the claim.
2)No it cannot, a vig, a cop and a watcher are the three most powerful roles for town, Eco knows this, he taught me this! (oh god, how I wanted to be able to show our QT about a review we did together). So unless the mafia is comprised of three "unkillable godfather ninja toughguy" it can't be done.
This bothers me so much. You can't just say "it can't be done" and give the reason "Because it's what I think Ecophagy would say". The fact that you're relying on rolegaming and modgaming to decide lynches instead of, you know, actually playing the game indicates you're scum.
The thing about "Scum are usually more concerned with roles than with behavior" comes to mind here.
Quote from DRey »
In the end, I have two question for everyone, please answer in your next post, you don't even need to give reasons, just an answer.
-Considering mafia design best practices, razor, behaviour how likely do you think at least one of Caex and Xyre is scum?
-Imagine there's a dichotomy in a mafia game, how fast it should be solved? toDay, toMorrow or the day after toMorrow?
My answers.
-100%
-As soon as possible, therefore toDay.
-I think Xyre is scum, yes.
-False dichotomy, which you're trying to push way too hard for it to be genuine. You know who pushes false dichotomies? Scum. That's what got me nailed in Ataghan, and it's what's going to get you nailed in this game.
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
-Considering mafia design best practices, razor, behaviour how likely do you think at least one of Caex and Xyre is scum?
-Imagine there's a dichotomy in a mafia game, how fast it should be solved? toDay, toMorrow or the day after toMorrow?
My answers.
-100%
-As soon as possible, therefore toDay.
1. There is no way that they are both town. Among other things, if they were both town, then there'd be an easy Cop-Watcher-Doc combo.
2. An actual dichotomy should be resolved as soon as possible.
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Less than 3 and a half hours until deadline.
_______________________________________________
It looks like the only way we are not no-lynching is if me, Zionite, and DRey all put our votes on Xyre. Or if 5 other people decide that they want to lynch Zinda or Cyouni.
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537 (ced395): What is there even to "test"? Do you really think RR is lying about being able to kill someone? Where's the gain in that? Actually, this whole situation reminds me of Led Zeppelin Mafia, where our toughguy was floundering and pretty much all of us went in like idiots to try to save him, failed, outed ourselves, and crashed and burned. 595 (Seppel): Exactly the Led Zep point I made above. Zionite is clumsily wading in to save his toughguy because he values the toughguy shot more than his own safety. 696 (Seppel): Am interested to hear your thoughts re: the similarity of this situation to Led Zeppelin Mafia's D1 and D2.
p.s. This game kind of reminds me of some of the games from the Dark Ages (like 2009-2010 era games, I'm talking about Led Zep, Sword of Truth, South Park, etc) which were basically just Roleclaim Mafia. Run somebody up, they claim, run someone else up, rinse and repeat.
It's not DYH who knows how to repeat "Led Zeppelin" over and over again; it's Zindabad.
a scumtell I've found is that when someone references a scum game they're pobably scum (I had to hold back a lot in Eeveelouthion mafia to avoid referenceing scum game because IT WAS JUST SO EASY TO DO
re: a comment in DRey's last post: I just watched Az plainsight coach his scumbuddy Zionite on D2 of Cyberspace Mafia, so it does happen.
SO EASY TO DO
It's because you think of how someone acts as scum and YOU THINK OF YOURSELF and you're like OH YEAH I (or a buddy) TOTALLY DID THAT AS SCUM and you're like WHAMMO
but really the high level play is to call someone out on that BS.
I swear Zindabad mentioned Led Zepepling somewhere evlse
I did actually miss that it's midnight tomorrow, not tonight. So...plenty of time then. Hopefully more people check in.
I really like Seppel's points about Zinda's referencing previous scum games, and since no one else is down to go after Cyouni today. Unvote, Vote: Zindabad
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@Well I'm fine with a Xyre lynch if no one is convinced for a Caex lynch. Also why aren't you answering the question? You are being pretty anti-town for pushing for yet another claim with less than 24 missing you know?
Zinda's "case"
This is one of the crappiest "cases" I've ever seen, so when one mention a game where he was scum before he's certainly scum? pfffffffff You are better than this Seppel, much much better. Are you a Void gimmick?
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
In the end, I have two question for everyone, please answer in your next post, you don't even need to give reasons, just an answer.
-Considering mafia design best practices, razor, behaviour how likely do you think at least one of Caex and Xyre is scum?
-Imagine there's a dichotomy in a mafia game, how fast it should be solved? toDay, toMorrow or the day after toMorrow?
The only False Dichotomy I see here is you thinking that one or both of them *have* to be scum.
@Well I'm fine with a Xyre lynch if no one is convinced for a Caex lynch. Also why aren't you answering the question? You are being pretty anti-town for pushing for yet another claim with less than 24 missing you know?
I think it's pretty anti-town to try and lynch the claimed cop or watcher. I think we need their results for tomorrow.
I've already stated repeatedly that I'm not down for lynching a claimed power role D1. We are better off leaving them alive today because the scum will have to deal with them tonight and we will have more information tomorrow. There is zero reason to lynch either of them today. You should see this because you've been changing your mind back and forth on it for a while. That should tell you that it's a bad idea. I think Cyouni is scum, but I'm not going to waste time going a direction that no one else feels like going.
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259 (DRey): How does your opinion of Cyouni's post change knowing now that, nearly 250 posts later, "on the verge of a lynch" Caex is still alive? You do have an excellent point about leaving Caex alive, having someone watch him, and netting either a cop investigation or a free scum - but that's contingent on us having a watcher at all and that watcher being town.
"DRey has an excellent point so he's good" This is certainly not an attack to me, also red alert for mentioning the possibility of a scum watcher. This is not a thought a townie with no information about the setup would have imho. If Xyre does flip scum watcher I know who to shoot toNight.
Nonsense. Scum watchers are always a possibility. I don't know where the idea that watchers aren't scum came about, but it's a particularly lazy form of setup-gaming.
297 (DRey): Combined with other posts he's been making around this timeframe, I think DRey is losing the plot a bit. He has absolutely nothing, and I mean nothing, on Xyre. I can't conceive that even DRey would be stubborn enough, as town, to repeatedly insist that one of his interlocutors is scum when giving no evidence at all, and in fact not even trying to engage that player (hence not reading his "walls.")
I do agree I had nothing against Xyre back there, not because I was lying but because I had not presented my case so far (for lack of time and reactions), thing I have amended later to great success, and you know this, because when you made this post you had already read it. In the end this reason is bogus. Also you already know the walls have nothing to do about this as I've explained at lengths so this also makes me think you are just creating reasons out of thin air.
I think you may be referring to 305 when you say you amended your lack of a case later "to great success", so I'll leave some of this for the discussion of that point, but the point stands. You had nothing.
305 (DRey): "Have you ever seen a townie with convictions before"? Urghhh....feeling a bit sick to my stomach now.
Vague, completely meaningless comment. My post oozed with towniness and I have great pride of it. I can also quote all your posts and say "Urghhh....feeling a bit sick to my stomach now" about them and you know what? It would be vague and meaningless because it explain nothing.
It was a load of crap and it was made even worse by this "medium-sized" (thanks rian for finally giving me a snappy bit of terminology to apply to this particularly loathsome kind of self-aggrandizement!) retort to CropCircles. I utterly detest it when people go "look how townie I am, because I'm doing this, that townies totally do!" It makes me want to kill that person as soon as I read it, because I know that person will not be of any assistance to the town. They're either scum or a useless "one-man-army" townie who thinks he/she is going to do it all on their lonesome.
337 (DRey): But now, after all of that, we actually have to lynch DRey after all.
I know that doesn't really suffice but I'll have to finish later. In the unlikely event that I don't finish before deadline, here is my vote: DRey.
Naked vote.
I feel justified in that vote since I was placing it on a player I found extremely scummy at the time and without prior knowledge that I would be active again before deadline.
I can't conceive that even Zinda would be stubborn enough, as town, to create such weak, ill reasoned reasons to vote me, worse still, it comes after another pbpa (before my claim) where we pushed quite a clear "DRey is obvtown" read. It all looks fabricated to prevent the vig from reaching the night.
A clear DRey is obvtown read, is that it? I notice you completely failed to include anything from this post:
Ignore that badly formatted post and read it here instead:
OK, let’s do some damage here.
8 (DRey): Well, that was quick. Definite alarm bells going off for this post. 14 (Zionite): This response rubs me the wrong way. I would’ve expected a more visceral “that post sucks” reaction from a townie. 15 (Stardust): “Can someone walk me through this?” also sets off alarm bells. Early noob card from Stardust, whose meta I’m not familiar with – but I’m sure this isn’t his first time at the rodeo. 20 (Xyre): This is “ORLYSCUM” play from Xyre. Not crazy about it. Every awful DRey post doesn’t make him auto-scum – every vote on a scummy player by kpaca doesn’t automatically mean he’s bussing. I feel like Xyre is better than this. 25 (Wessel): Good solid post here. Liking this analysis of Zionite’s weak post. 39 (Zionite): Really hating “analyzing my wagon” here. It’s the 39th post! It feels like Zionite is “playing the game.” None of his posts feel natural or like they’re coming from gut. They feel like ice sculptures. 50 (D_V): Well, that sounds like the worst idea ever. 52 (Stardust): This was also really so soft. Is Stardust always this…faux-earnest? Need to check up on this guy’s meta. 53 (Caex): Also doing little for me with this post. You don’t remember Ataghan at all? 62 (Xyre): Yes, but where’s the relation to what kpaca is actually doing in this game? It was DRey who brought the bus in Seasons in a bad overreaction to ZasZ’s bad plan. Kpaca only joined the attack once he saw how bad the two of them were making each other look. You’re reaching too hard to fit one kpaca post into a meta pattern that may not even be real. 68 (kpaca): Any chance of getting you to elaborate on just what that mindset is exactly?
(I see several people will immediately pull you up on this, which decreases the chance that you’ll answer it.) 78 (DRey): What does Caex getting vigged have to do with Zionite being lynched today? 80 (Caex): You say you’re willing to vote Stardust, but did you mention him at any point yet? I’ll get back to this. 81 (Stardust): “So stay in shape, eh?” Good Lord, I’m hating Stardust so much right now. Trying to figure out if this is just my natural reaction to a scummy-looking newer player or if real gut scum-vibes. 82 (Zionite): I agree with his assessment of Caex’s posting so far. He and Stardust are at the top of my list at the moment. 83 (Caex): That’s a specific. Not specifics. It also feels really perfunctory, like “oh I know you’ll ask me for this, so here I am, jumping through your hoop. Happy?” 87 (Che): Really fake post here. “Hydro” was especially egregious. This guy is not who he claims to be, although that means nothing for his alignment in this game. 93 (Stardust): Rightfully questions Caex’s seemingly throwaway mention of his name as a possible lynch target. Interested to see the response. 95 (Caex): Shocking response here. Tasty OMGUS from Caex – if I were voting, I’d be voting for him at this point. 98 (Stardust): Interestingly introspective post from here that gives Star town points. If I were scum in Star’s position I’d be all over Caex for his abysmal OMGUS vote – that wagon would look like a total banker. But Stardust instead chooses to mull it over – out loud, no less. 100 (Xyre): I think I see a bit of tunnel vision developing here. Zionite is still scummy but the lack of mention of other scummy players worries me a bit, although he did say it was just a “quick post.” 111 (DRey): Let he who is without sin…. 112 (Wessel): Not crazy about this. Xyre is pressing the attack against Zionite, another main target of yours, but you say he’s doing nothing? 113 (Zionite): For someone who was breaking out the Latin not long ago, your use of “which was quite obvious to everyone else” is just as much an appeal to the masses as Caex’s post was not long ago. Zzz. 114 (Xyre): Not nearly as open-and-shut as Xyre tries to make it sound. I wonder what the point of that “sit down” comment was. You aren’t going to shake Zionite with posturing like that – was the plan to convince newer players like Stardust, Caex, and possibly Che with that attempt at forcefulness? 115 (Xyre): Don’t agree. Caex sounds like he’s going along to get along, especially with every word that’s come out of his mouth so far concerning Stardust. He’s scum, in my opinion, who’s learning from his Ataghan mistake re: PBPA walls (which were discussed in the postgame as a weakness of his.) 118 (Stardust): Early read on Stardust rapidly reversing. Very good review of his own post regarding Zionite and does well to keep both Xyre and Zionite honest here. 122 (Caex): Ex post facto justification here. You were already mentioning Stardust as a potential scum before he said anything about the likelihood of his committing scumslips – see your post 80. A follow-up on that – in 123, you then ask Zionite to explain why he has a town read on Stardust when you have thus far failed to explain why you have a scum read on him. Why the disconnect? 124 (Zionite): This response blows Xyre out of the water. Can’t tell if that’s down to the shoddiness of Xyre’s initial attack (which would be a logical point for a scum to turn a regular defense into a comprehensive defeat of all points such as this one – see me doing the same to Cyan in Hecatea) or because Zionite is actually town. 125 (Xyre): This is a lot better, especially the point about Zionite and the third vote by kpaca. 131-136 (kpaca/Stardust): kpaca opens with “shifty votes and contrived efforts”. After questioning by Stardust, he clarifies that DRey, Wessel, and maybe Che might be “shifty.” That leaves just Xyre for “contrived efforts.” I don’t see Wessel as shifty at all, and Xyre’s effort doesn’t feel contrived either. Not loving this. 138 (Xyre): A lot of this was unnecessary rhetorical butting of heads. The main point I took away from this post was that it reminded me of how Zionite said “but I’ll humor you just for kicks”, which reminds me of the feeble language he was using in Cyberspace. 140 (DRey): Shocking vote here and it makes me wonder how closely you’re following the back-and-forth. Xyre’s weak opening post was duly defeated by Zionite, but Xyre then bounced back with another supplemental case (way better than the first) and also attacked Zionite’s rebuttal. The pressure is definitely on Zionite here, not Xyre, so how can the latter be “imploding?” 149 (WoLG): Would like to see a little more from you – I think this post is OK, although it’s a little on the mild side. Some stronger convictions would help get a better read. 150 (CC): No mention of Zionite’s role in the PBPA war between him and Xyre – all the focus on the aggressor. Any reason for this? I also don’t like how you characterize kpaca as “active[ly] scumhunting”, cause he totally isn’t. 151 (Zionite): Happy birthday. We’ll see if this is a ploy to dodge pressure (not that it isn’t your birthday or anything, but this post read to me as pretty classic “wait until the storm passes” scum behavior.) 155 (Caex): Deflection onto kpaca. Never mind what he’s doing for a moment. Explain what you’re doing first. I wasn’t crazy about CC’s initial post 150 but about the only thing he got right there was, well, you. 168 (Zionite): Very soft response to the best point of Xyre’s case. It wasn’t a question of why you would vote or wouldn’t vote kpaca for the third vote, it’s a question of why you would use the third vote business as a stick to bludgeon CC with while hypocritically ignoring kpaca’s same offense. 171 (Caex): DRey, this is what a scum implosion looks like, down to the “more votes.” 188 (DRey): Bad post but the “pay attention to me, guys!” attitude present in this post and the “this game is boring” post preceding it doesn’t really make sense from a scum perspective. Can’t see scum DRey being so desperate for attention as long as a) he’s safe and b) a powerful scumbuddy isn’t on the chopping block, both of which are true at present.
That will do for now – made it through more than half. Consider my vote on Caex.
I also bolded a question I asked you that you didn't answer.
I didn't see anything that called you "obvtown" in that post, or in the second one. Would you care to retract those mischaracterizations now that the evidence has proven you wrong?
***
Ordinarily I wouldn't even respond to this drunken dullardry on principle, but considering that we have reached the 11th (or at least 10th and a half) hour, I will entertain it under protest. Please be advised that in future I am not interested in any post made (by anyone, not just Seppel) while intoxicated and will require you to repost while sober if you expect any response.
537 (ced395): What is there even to "test"? Do you really think RR is lying about being able to kill someone? Where's the gain in that? Actually, this whole situation reminds me of Led Zeppelin Mafia, where our toughguy was floundering and pretty much all of us went in like idiots to try to save him, failed, outed ourselves, and crashed and burned. 595 (Seppel): Exactly the Led Zep point I made above. Zionite is clumsily wading in to save his toughguy because he values the toughguy shot more than his own safety. 696 (Seppel): Am interested to hear your thoughts re: the similarity of this situation to Led Zeppelin Mafia's D1 and D2.
p.s. This game kind of reminds me of some of the games from the Dark Ages (like 2009-2010 era games, I'm talking about Led Zep, Sword of Truth, South Park, etc) which were basically just Roleclaim Mafia. Run somebody up, they claim, run someone else up, rinse and repeat.
It's not DYH who knows how to repeat "Led Zeppelin" over and over again; it's Zindabad.
a scumtell I've found is that when someone references a scum game they're pobably scum (I had to hold back a lot in Eeveelouthion mafia to avoid referenceing scum game because IT WAS JUST SO EASY TO DO
Was anyone actually calling this a legitimate point? He gave two examples. Two. One of them was from this game, where my alignment is unknown, not to mention the context of how I reference it there - talking about a certain era of roleclaim mafia which included that game (perhaps the most infamous example of roleclaim mafia in action - go look it up if you don't believe me.)
This was supposed to be some amazing meta catch? And I don't care if you agree or not, the first day of Cyberspace was exactly (and farcically) like D1 of Led Zep, so I'm entitled to draw a clear comparison.
That's without even going into how I WAS TOWN IN SWORD OF TRUTH. Oh, where's your amazing catch now? You gave one example of where I did it as scum, one example of where I did it as town, and one terrible and out-of-context example of where I talked about Led Zep in this game, where my alignment is unconfirmed. So who exactly are you convincing with this? You've given as much evidence in my favor as you have presented against me.
Or is your argument that I only talk about Led Zep in particular when I'm scum? In that case, I defy you to find even one example of a game where I'm scum and I bring up Led Zep without it having been brought up first. DYH talked about Led Zep first in Cyberspace, long before I ever mentioned it.
The proof for that assertion: Cyberspace Mafia: DYH brings up Led Zep in post 316. I don't mention it by name until 738 (I actually talked about it first in 653, in response to DYH.)
So now I'd like you to explain to the class how it's me that can't stop talking about Led Zep (when scum), since as far as I can see, you don't have an argument.
<<p.s. @DRey: While I'm going through old posts, here's an example of me talking about scum watchers while town in StarCraft Mafia.>>
re: a comment in DRey's last post: I just watched Az plainsight coach his scumbuddy Zionite on D2 of Cyberspace Mafia, so it does happen.
SO EASY TO DO
It's because you think of how someone acts as scum and YOU THINK OF YOURSELF and you're like OH YEAH I (or a buddy) TOTALLY DID THAT AS SCUM and you're like WHAMMO
but really the high level play is to call someone out on that BS.
I swear Zindabad mentioned Led Zepepling somewhere evlse
I'll be sover in the morning don't worry
unvote, vote zindabad
Yes, the only time people ever reference something that scum do is when they themselves are scum. You're totally right.
Oh look, I referenced Manga Mafia (I lost as scum) in Ozone Underground. I guess I was scum there too? I also referenced LOTR II (I won as scum) here in Chosen.
Wow, how about this one? Here, AE attacked me using Goo Mafia, and I responded to it! I guess by your logic, that made me scum in that game, since I kept referring to some time when I was scum, but only after someone alluded to it - just like here! Replace AE with DYH and Goo Mafia with Led Zep, and we have the exact same situation, which according to you, makes me scum...oh wait...I was town in that game.
Then, let's talk about how about how many times I've referenced me vs. AE in Goo Mafia while town. And how about the endless times I've talked about my own terrible post vs. sandsoftblue in the first Amistarian Mafia? I was scum all of those times too, right?
This was an embarrassing excuse for a case. Don't try to engage me again if you don't have any evidence. You were shown up for that in StarCraft but apparently didn't learn your lesson at all.
I am thoroughly impressed by that post, Zinda. The defense of your meta checks out. Your tone and verbiage ring town to me. Unvote.
Time to reread some stuff.
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Want to see in-depth words from Zindabad on something that isn't self-defense, now that he's caught up.
Need to make sure it's not a case of 'I'm scum, but your reasons suck'. (There needs to be a term for that).
I still want to lynch Xyre.
Cyouni would be acceptable - but I think he's scum with Xyre - committing firmly to an opinion once Xyre was under heavy pressure reads like him trying to get town credit and avoid the vig shot.
If I'm wrong about Xyre, then I'd probbbbably reevaluate Cyouni a bit - and look more in depth at Wessel and Zionite, who I've largely written off as town due to Xyre being scum.
I feel like we're flailing around akin to chickens with our heads cut off, and having confirmed alignments for some of the people in question would go a long way to solving things.
This was an embarrassing excuse for a case. Don't try to engage me again if you don't have any evidence. You were shown up for that in StarCraft but apparently didn't learn your lesson at all.
So once I have concrete evidence, you'll accept being lynched?
My reason for bringing up Cyberspace, and by extension Led Zeppelin, is for the same reason I did it in Cyberspace - to draw a reaction. Only this time, Ced/Seppel didn't firebomb it before you had a chance to completely melt down in your reaction like you did here.
On one hand, your holier-than-thou attitude about Seppel comes off sincere, but I'm struggling with the bigger issues:
First, you can't seem to be bothered with the game until suddenly you're under the microscope. Now you suddenly have lots of time to post, research and provide links, even.
Secondly, Voxx/Seppel already covered the giant red flag of what I like to refer to as the 'Stormblind tell' - his "Good try, though" post from Hats Mafia. Don't bother to engage you without evidence? Please, you just provided a gold mine.
I'll check back before the deadline; worst thing that can happen is a no lynch today.
(As opposed to actually just proving it wrong, that is. At the risk of sounding like myself from Starcraft, I'm going to say that his post makes him feel excited to be able to post a rebuttal, instead of it being work to post a rebuttal.)
-Considering mafia design best practices, razor, behaviour how likely do you think at least one of Caex and Xyre is scum?
-Imagine there's a dichotomy in a mafia game, how fast it should be solved? toDay, toMorrow or the day after toMorrow?
Can we lynch Caex now? Why he's getting away when everyone thinks he's scum and a cop that can't be protected is weaker than a watcher that can? Meaning from a power standpoint this "cop" claim is weaker than the watcher claim.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
@Well so it looks like you really are a noob after all. I had no idea you never played mafia before.
So let me teach you a simple concept, when one claim a role that's essentially the same as another role in a small game it means one of them is lying and therefore scum. For example of dichotomys: a jailer and a roleblocker, a cop and a watcher/tracker, a doc and a bodyguard.
Xyre claimed watcher, Caex cop, if Caex is telling the truth there's also a doc and a roleblocker out there. If Caex is telling the truth there's at least a cop(himself) a vig (me) and a doc (his claim) out there. Meaning there's probably zero unclaimed power for town out there because doc+ cop+vig is a really strong trio, and if there's another power out there is certainly not a watcher.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
@DRey: Why are you trying to make a dichotomy out of it? You're speaking as if you know the power of the Mafia. All of the claims today, aside from Voxx's, have been disputed.
Enough people have expressed doubts about Xyre's claim that I strongly believe one of them is a real watcher or tracker. Caex's claim is either true or the ballsiest falseclaim ever. And Caex is not that good as mafia.
You! you are a good player, are you seriously trying to advocate we can have a cop and a watcher of the same alignment in a mini? Also if you suspect Xyre is more suspicious of Caex why aren't you voting him? Also no one claimed tracker, please pay attention.
BTW this has little to do about the power of the mafia, town cop+ town watcher in a mini, possible or impossible?
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Since there's no time for anything anymore, let's do this. Hopefully we are correct. unvote, vote Xyre
@Xyre please post your last reads and everything just in case. If you are town I assure I will not forget you.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
You! you are a good player, are you seriously trying to advocate we can have a cop and a watcher of the same alignment in a mini? Also if you suspect Xyre is more suspicious of Caex why aren't you voting him? Also no one claimed tracker, please pay attention.
BTW this has little to do about the power of the mafia, town cop+ town watcher in a mini, possible or impossible?
This was branded as a high power game, and Caex's role cements that (though I'll be amused if there's a mafia doc and a town roleblocker :p).
I never said that someone claimed tracker, but a tracker would be suspicious of a watcher claim.
Ah, yes, another default lynch. (And everyone's following my "pick three" plan, which I think is cute, despite the tragic consequences.) Oh well, I suppose it was inevitable.
I stand by the list of reads I posted a ways back, except I'd put Voxx into Leaning Town. I still think the scum are some combination of Cyouni, zindabad, Wessel, and Caex, contingent upon the validity of Caex's claim. And I suggest telling Caex to investigate a randomly-selected target among the former three.
zindabad's effort is interesting, but I don't think it acquits him, because it doesn't demonstrate any desire to put in effort beyond the means of self-preservation. If it means anything, the zindabad/Seppel exchange makes Seppel look worse just due to the mediocrity of his arguments. zinda's plenty lynchable without the stringy meta reads.
I think there's too much setup speculation; for all the "cop and watcher can't coexist" notions, I think you should judge Caex first and foremost on his play, and second on the results he gives for his supposed claim. Trying to guess what Asian has added won't do you any good, because you don't know how strong the mafia are or what safeguards he's put in place to counteract the town.
DRey, after this game you and I will have a talk about your play and why you're a little awful to play with at times.
It's kind of stupid I got lynched because "oh no we can't have too much power though" by all the people who ragged on me for wanting to kill Caex. This town has memory problems.
I now fear being wrong about everything so far.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Amazingly enough, his claim had a lot to do with that. And by a lot, I mean everything.
Oh, the irony.
If you're saying that they CC'ed each other, how do you rationalize Xyre wanting to leave Caex alive?
Yes. But it can wait until D2.
I'm still voting Xyre.
Zionite was the one who jumped ship.
Good thing I'm wearing my Irony-Resistant Underpants.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Vote: Cyouni.
There's no dichotomy because Caex is lying? You should be saying "There's no dichotomy because both of them are lying". So how sure are you that both of them are scum? If there's a good chance that one of them is town neither of them should be lynched. It will become clear with time.
Threats now. "You are so scum".
Obviously Seppel would have to suppose that the Watcher is town to make the theoretical of "the town has these power roles, therefore is overpowered, meaning something is wrong" to work.
Also, @Seppel: It was a Cop, not a Tracker. Ataghan had the Tracker.
Xyre's #592 reads like he KNOWS Vox is town."
Since both me and Iso believe Cyouni is scum let's get that wagon rolling. A lot of people have expressed suspicion, and we need to go somewhere that will give us actual results. A lurker lynch will net us zero behavioral information, so Zinda is off the table for a lynch today.
Unvote, Vote: Cyouni.
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Awards:
Elegant Mafia: The Joker, Mafia MVP
Cyberspace (mafia)
Gotham Underground (mafia, as replacement)
Intrigue (mafia)
Ozone Underground (town)
Cyberpunk (mafia)
Chosen (town)
I would love for you, DYH, to explain to me how the scum meta you describe for me jives (jibes?) with my scum play in Intrigue Mafia. I would also like to hear how your description of my scum game doesn't match my town play in Ozone Underground. I'd also like to hear Xyre's opinion on that last point.
Go ahead. Take a look. I don't think I have more than 30 posts in any of them, it won't take you long.
It's just a lazy meta argument, especially since there's loads of observations and good notes present in my catchup posts that pretty much nobody responded to. The reason I've been absent from this game isn't because I'm scum, it's because I just don't have any time to play (or much will to play. I was serious about quitting, you know - I just didn't want to go out with such a pathetic performance as Cyberspace Mafia.)
DYH only knows how to repeat "Led Zeppelin" over and over again. That game started nearly four years ago. Things have changed. I haven't been prolific in a game since StarCraft Mafia, and it seems unlikely that I ever will be again - for better or for worse.
I've not given much content, but what I have posted has been worth reading. If you're voting me for what's in there, please let me know what exactly you take exception to. If you're voting me for not posting, I have four words for you: get used to it. This isn't going to change. This is my new game, and I know it sucks, but I'm just not able to do more at this point in time.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Townies generally don't make calculated posts in the same sense mafia make calculated posts. My point is he isn't the kind of player who would make those kinds of posts as town, and especially not the kind of player who would have such a fluid mindset that he'd contradict himself in his own post.
But if your gut is telling you Wessel is town, then by all means, ignore all the effort I put into this.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
WoLG, mate... are you, like, okay? I mean, if you're hearing voices, that's totally cool, man, but, y'know, maybe you'd like to, like, talk to somebody about that?
I can support a Cyouni lynch, too. I don't agree that it's necessarily going to give more information than a zindabad lynch, but I think they're both likely scum, so :thumbsup:.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
@Zinda Actually I know that you also lurk as town and it's unfortunate for you because I greatly dislike lurkers and I have a gun, so if you are town please put your thing together sooner than later. I'm not saying I'm shooting you, and this is not a threat anyway and I do like your content when you provide it. Btw why did you vote me back there?
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
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Elegant Mafia: The Joker, Mafia MVP
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
I don't know how much "responsive content" I'm supposed to give when I haven't caught up. I hate it when people do that as I think it makes their posts useless as they aren't coming from a position of complete information.
@DRey: My reasons were all present in the notes that I posted. Here's the relevant post. I voted you because you were acting scummy and claimed 1-shot vig (aka toughguy), so you jumped to #1 priority over Caex. That has changed as I continued to re-read, which brings me to my next answer...
@Caex: I'll decline to answer that for now.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Are you also one of the
idiotsguys that really are proposing the scum have one toughguy in a ****in mini? Have you all no faith in Eco or AI? Seriously this is insulting to me. I've been the town, towniest of the town with a ultra town role and people still vote me? What a debacle. And they say I'm the bad player.Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Calm down.
1.) You haven't proven you have a shot yet, so you could still be a standard scum lying about the extra shot.
2.) You don't have perfect information about the set up, this could be a really over powered game, but as long as it's balanced in between the two teams, that's not unheard of.
3.) No you haven't. You've said a lot of things that have proven, to me at least, that you are town. But you also have said quite a bit of scummy things and advocated actions that the town should take that could have a scum agenda.
So get off your high horse and drop the tone and threats.
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"DRey has an excellent point so he's good" This is certainly not an attack to me, also red alert for mentioning the possibility of a scum watcher. This is not a thought a townie with no information about the setup would have imho. If Xyre does flip scum watcher I know who to shoot toNight.
I do agree I had nothing against Xyre back there, not because I was lying but because I had not presented my case so far (for lack of time and reactions), thing I have amended later to great success, and you know this, because when you made this post you had already read it. In the end this reason is bogus. Also you already know the walls have nothing to do about this as I've explained at lengths so this also makes me think you are just creating reasons out of thin air.
Vague, completely meaningless comment. My post oozed with towniness and I have great pride of it. I can also quote all your posts and say "Urghhh....feeling a bit sick to my stomach now" about them and you know what? It would be vague and meaningless because it explain nothing.
Naked vote.
I can't conceive that even Zinda would be stubborn enough, as town, to create such weak, ill reasoned reasons to vote me, worse still, it comes after another pbpa (before my claim) where we pushed quite a clear "DRey is obvtown" read. It all looks fabricated to prevent the vig from reaching the night.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Convenient that.
I do not support a Caex lynch, and can't quite wrap my mind around why people would want to lynch an un-cc'd cop on day one. Or vig him.
I think the best route is something along these lines:
Lynch Xyre.
Vig Cyouni or possibly Zindabad.
If Xyre is town, cop one of Wessel, Seppel, DYH.
If Xyre is scum, cop one of Seppel, DYH, Zionite or Stardust.
2)No it cannot, a vig, a cop and a watcher are the three most powerful roles for town, Eco knows this, he taught me this! (oh god, how I wanted to be able to show our QT about a review we did together). So unless the mafia is comprised of three "unkillable godfather ninja toughguy" it can't be done.
3)No one is proven town until the flip. No matter what. This is the only thing I believe in mafia. No matter how strong I think someone is town or scum I know I can be wrong, so only because you think I've said scummy things from your POV it doesn't mean I'm, because I'm not. I don't think I've said anything scummy and I've explained all my thought processes so far, but if you still think I'm scum just wait until my flip.
----
In the end, I have two question for everyone, please answer in your next post, you don't even need to give reasons, just an answer.
-Considering mafia design best practices, razor, behaviour how likely do you think at least one of Caex and Xyre is scum?
-Imagine there's a dichotomy in a mafia game, how fast it should be solved? toDay, toMorrow or the day after toMorrow?
My answers.
-100%
-As soon as possible, therefore toDay.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
If he wasn't being serious it's not anti-town behaviour, right?
Jumping on a wagon isn't scummy in itself. Setting yourself up to act opportunistically with wagon jumping is.
This is not what my post said. At all. You're right that I had no nonCaex votes at the time, and no votes at all when I initially thought Caex might be trying to pull something. What I was talking about though was that I suspected to garner some attention later with my "slips", which I thought was an inevitability based on Giant Robots. I thought Caex might have been setting himself up for that same inevitability.
Later on you say that I was reading Caex as town. I wasn't. I just did my homework. When Caex first threw my name into his list, that struck me. So I checked back to see if I could catch scum. I decided that his other posts generally appeared to be town motivated, so I questioned him about it instead of pouncing, expecting some kind of reasoning. What I got was shocking, but I didn't want to just throw back some OMGUS, so I thought about it instead. I wasn't reserving the right to vote Caex later so much as basically indicating that I planned to reassess that post once I was better able to understand where it was coming from. That post now reads to me as very scummy, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't confounding my own reads with OMGUS.
You're like Che. I had an okay feeling about you, but my notes weren't really able to back it up. When I wrote that post I had just reread you and couldn't quite nail down a read. I wanted more.
Yes. I was actively trying to figure out both yourself and Xyre. What you quoted there is me quizzing Xyre to better figure out where he was coming from.
I was voting Caex since early on too. Why is it impossible for you to be bussing Caex when you're essentially accusing me of the same thing?
You thinking we should still lynch Caex is just terrible and I find it really amusing that you are now holding it up to prove your towniness. You have nothing to lose by pushing that agenda as scum: either you know Caex is scum and can gladly say, "See! Lynching the unCC'd cop was a great idea!" or you successfully get the town to lynch their cop.
I already explained this to you.
Not really. If I suspected him more strongly I'd be questioning him immediately. Instead I thought I'd wait for a bit and see where else he decided to get involved (see the strike-through'd bit of this post). I get the feeling that kpaca can't be caught with questions. You've got to piece together his choices of what to hit and pass on.
No. Not imploring him to change his mind, imploring him to explain his scummy post. This was a big red flag for DRey (and I reference it in my case against him later).
Small commitments. That's what I wanted to see from kpaca. Like I said, I was piecing together his puzzle, but I hadn't yet gotten any proper scum vibes from him, so I figured I had time to wait. There was never any real suspicion.
Xyre was doing an adequate job, as far as I was concerned. He caught everything I caught and more, until the end.
Correction: not the only reason. It's what I caught that Xyre didn't. It was one of two additional things I brought up at the time (though you neglect to mention the second - forgiving Caex - from the same post).
Makes sense but I'm not going to unvote you until I digest it. This is what I was referring to when I said later that you'd felt somewhat townie in your dealings with me.
Umm, I never even mentioned you here... Why so paranoid?
Anyway, I was unsure. Like I said there, I haven't yet been in a game where scum false-claimed. I needed to think more about what that all meant and how to proceed.
You're right. That was unfair. I've had you as scum for a long time and it's easy to let that colour everything. I'll apologize for this one.
Both. If he'd claimed vanilla I would have lynched him for his previous play alone. Because he was acting at least a little bit townie, I was coming around to the possibility that I was wrong about him. He should be allowed to live tonight.
Not reserving the right. Being conflicted in my read (based on those couple townie posts I referenced above). Don't worry, you've since made it pretty clear that those few posts are outliers.
Yes. DRey's been growing on me, but you two are still pretty entrenched.
Yes. There is no contradiction here.
Reserving the right to read into him in more detail. I didn't jump on Xyre's wagon when it came around. What do you make of that?
Misrep (twice).
WIFOM.
Reading too much into nothing.
Nope. Did you read my case? I didn't think so. I actually went into some detail on each possible combination to make sure it held true regardless.
:whew: I gotta go. My kid is waiting for me at daycare.
The thing about "Scum are usually more concerned with roles than with behavior" comes to mind here.
-I think Xyre is scum, yes.
-False dichotomy, which you're trying to push way too hard for it to be genuine. You know who pushes false dichotomies? Scum. That's what got me nailed in Ataghan, and it's what's going to get you nailed in this game.
{Magic: The RPG}
1. There is no way that they are both town. Among other things, if they were both town, then there'd be an easy Cop-Watcher-Doc combo.
2. An actual dichotomy should be resolved as soon as possible.
For some reason I thought it was going to be by majority at time of deadline. Then I tried to find that post and couldn't. Vote Xyre
I'm asking this same question.
________________________________________________
Unofficial vote count:
Xyre (4): Voxxicus, Wessel, Caex Kothar, Seppel
Voxxicus (2): DYH, zindabad
Zindabad (2): Xyre, Zionite
Cyouni (2): Stardust, WoLG
Caex (1) Drey
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Less than 3 and a half hours until deadline.
_______________________________________________
It looks like the only way we are not no-lynching is if me, Zionite, and DRey all put our votes on Xyre. Or if 5 other people decide that they want to lynch Zinda or Cyouni.
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unless we have two investigation roles that just fffffffffffffff
Did everyone miss this post? I think we have 27.5 hours, not 3.5.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
I really like Seppel's points about Zinda's referencing previous scum games, and since no one else is down to go after Cyouni today. Unvote, Vote: Zindabad
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zindabad is correct; the deadline is at the end of Tuesday.
Zinda's "case"
This is one of the crappiest "cases" I've ever seen, so when one mention a game where he was scum before he's certainly scum? pfffffffff You are better than this Seppel, much much better. Are you a Void gimmick?
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
The only False Dichotomy I see here is you thinking that one or both of them *have* to be scum.
I think it's pretty anti-town to try and lynch the claimed cop or watcher. I think we need their results for tomorrow.
I've already stated repeatedly that I'm not down for lynching a claimed power role D1. We are better off leaving them alive today because the scum will have to deal with them tonight and we will have more information tomorrow. There is zero reason to lynch either of them today. You should see this because you've been changing your mind back and forth on it for a while. That should tell you that it's a bad idea. I think Cyouni is scum, but I'm not going to waste time going a direction that no one else feels like going.
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Nonsense. Scum watchers are always a possibility. I don't know where the idea that watchers aren't scum came about, but it's a particularly lazy form of setup-gaming.
I think you may be referring to 305 when you say you amended your lack of a case later "to great success", so I'll leave some of this for the discussion of that point, but the point stands. You had nothing.
It was a load of crap and it was made even worse by this "medium-sized" (thanks rian for finally giving me a snappy bit of terminology to apply to this particularly loathsome kind of self-aggrandizement!) retort to CropCircles. I utterly detest it when people go "look how townie I am, because I'm doing this, that townies totally do!" It makes me want to kill that person as soon as I read it, because I know that person will not be of any assistance to the town. They're either scum or a useless "one-man-army" townie who thinks he/she is going to do it all on their lonesome.
I feel justified in that vote since I was placing it on a player I found extremely scummy at the time and without prior knowledge that I would be active again before deadline.
A clear DRey is obvtown read, is that it? I notice you completely failed to include anything from this post:
I also bolded a question I asked you that you didn't answer.
I didn't see anything that called you "obvtown" in that post, or in the second one. Would you care to retract those mischaracterizations now that the evidence has proven you wrong?
***
Ordinarily I wouldn't even respond to this drunken dullardry on principle, but considering that we have reached the 11th (or at least 10th and a half) hour, I will entertain it under protest. Please be advised that in future I am not interested in any post made (by anyone, not just Seppel) while intoxicated and will require you to repost while sober if you expect any response.
Was anyone actually calling this a legitimate point? He gave two examples. Two. One of them was from this game, where my alignment is unknown, not to mention the context of how I reference it there - talking about a certain era of roleclaim mafia which included that game (perhaps the most infamous example of roleclaim mafia in action - go look it up if you don't believe me.)
This was supposed to be some amazing meta catch? And I don't care if you agree or not, the first day of Cyberspace was exactly (and farcically) like D1 of Led Zep, so I'm entitled to draw a clear comparison.
That's without even going into how I WAS TOWN IN SWORD OF TRUTH. Oh, where's your amazing catch now? You gave one example of where I did it as scum, one example of where I did it as town, and one terrible and out-of-context example of where I talked about Led Zep in this game, where my alignment is unconfirmed. So who exactly are you convincing with this? You've given as much evidence in my favor as you have presented against me.
Or is your argument that I only talk about Led Zep in particular when I'm scum? In that case, I defy you to find even one example of a game where I'm scum and I bring up Led Zep without it having been brought up first. DYH talked about Led Zep first in Cyberspace, long before I ever mentioned it.
The proof for that assertion:
Cyberspace Mafia: DYH brings up Led Zep in post 316. I don't mention it by name until 738 (I actually talked about it first in 653, in response to DYH.)
So now I'd like you to explain to the class how it's me that can't stop talking about Led Zep (when scum), since as far as I can see, you don't have an argument.
<<p.s. @DRey: While I'm going through old posts, here's an example of me talking about scum watchers while town in StarCraft Mafia.>>
Yes, the only time people ever reference something that scum do is when they themselves are scum. You're totally right.
Oh look, I referenced Manga Mafia (I lost as scum) in Ozone Underground. I guess I was scum there too? I also referenced LOTR II (I won as scum) here in Chosen.
Wow, how about this one? Here, AE attacked me using Goo Mafia, and I responded to it! I guess by your logic, that made me scum in that game, since I kept referring to some time when I was scum, but only after someone alluded to it - just like here! Replace AE with DYH and Goo Mafia with Led Zep, and we have the exact same situation, which according to you, makes me scum...oh wait...I was town in that game.
Then, let's talk about how about how many times I've referenced me vs. AE in Goo Mafia while town. And how about the endless times I've talked about my own terrible post vs. sandsoftblue in the first Amistarian Mafia? I was scum all of those times too, right?
This was an embarrassing excuse for a case. Don't try to engage me again if you don't have any evidence. You were shown up for that in StarCraft but apparently didn't learn your lesson at all.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Unvote.
Time to reread some stuff.
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Need to make sure it's not a case of 'I'm scum, but your reasons suck'. (There needs to be a term for that).
I still want to lynch Xyre.
Cyouni would be acceptable - but I think he's scum with Xyre - committing firmly to an opinion once Xyre was under heavy pressure reads like him trying to get town credit and avoid the vig shot.
If I'm wrong about Xyre, then I'd probbbbably reevaluate Cyouni a bit - and look more in depth at Wessel and Zionite, who I've largely written off as town due to Xyre being scum.
I feel like we're flailing around akin to chickens with our heads cut off, and having confirmed alignments for some of the people in question would go a long way to solving things.
Unvote, vote Xyre
You made a good defense here.
But I'm getting the same vibe as Voxx. The last paragraph bugs me:
So once I have concrete evidence, you'll accept being lynched?
fluffyn00b agrees:
My reason for bringing up Cyberspace, and by extension Led Zeppelin, is for the same reason I did it in Cyberspace - to draw a reaction. Only this time, Ced/Seppel didn't firebomb it before you had a chance to completely melt down in your reaction like you did here.
On one hand, your holier-than-thou attitude about Seppel comes off sincere, but I'm struggling with the bigger issues:
First, you can't seem to be bothered with the game until suddenly you're under the microscope. Now you suddenly have lots of time to post, research and provide links, even.
Secondly, Voxx/Seppel already covered the giant red flag of what I like to refer to as the 'Stormblind tell' - his "Good try, though" post from Hats Mafia. Don't bother to engage you without evidence? Please, you just provided a gold mine.
I'll check back before the deadline; worst thing that can happen is a no lynch today.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Can we lynch Caex now? Why he's getting away when everyone thinks he's scum and a cop that can't be protected is weaker than a watcher that can? Meaning from a power standpoint this "cop" claim is weaker than the watcher claim.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
So let me teach you a simple concept, when one claim a role that's essentially the same as another role in a small game it means one of them is lying and therefore scum. For example of dichotomys: a jailer and a roleblocker, a cop and a watcher/tracker, a doc and a bodyguard.
Xyre claimed watcher, Caex cop, if Caex is telling the truth there's also a doc and a roleblocker out there. If Caex is telling the truth there's at least a cop(himself) a vig (me) and a doc (his claim) out there. Meaning there's probably zero unclaimed power for town out there because doc+ cop+vig is a really strong trio, and if there's another power out there is certainly not a watcher.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Enough people have expressed doubts about Xyre's claim that I strongly believe one of them is a real watcher or tracker. Caex's claim is either true or the ballsiest falseclaim ever. And Caex is not that good as mafia.
BTW this has little to do about the power of the mafia, town cop+ town watcher in a mini, possible or impossible?
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
unvote, vote Xyre
@Xyre please post your last reads and everything just in case. If you are town I assure I will not forget you.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
This was branded as a high power game, and Caex's role cements that (though I'll be amused if there's a mafia doc and a town roleblocker :p).
I never said that someone claimed tracker, but a tracker would be suspicious of a watcher claim.
I stand by the list of reads I posted a ways back, except I'd put Voxx into Leaning Town. I still think the scum are some combination of Cyouni, zindabad, Wessel, and Caex, contingent upon the validity of Caex's claim. And I suggest telling Caex to investigate a randomly-selected target among the former three.
zindabad's effort is interesting, but I don't think it acquits him, because it doesn't demonstrate any desire to put in effort beyond the means of self-preservation. If it means anything, the zindabad/Seppel exchange makes Seppel look worse just due to the mediocrity of his arguments. zinda's plenty lynchable without the stringy meta reads.
I think there's too much setup speculation; for all the "cop and watcher can't coexist" notions, I think you should judge Caex first and foremost on his play, and second on the results he gives for his supposed claim. Trying to guess what Asian has added won't do you any good, because you don't know how strong the mafia are or what safeguards he's put in place to counteract the town.
DRey, after this game you and I will have a talk about your play and why you're a little awful to play with at times.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia