Or, if you were Town, why not advocate the vig shooting someone other than Caex?
Then you watch Caex.
If Caex dies, it's pretty much confirmed to be scum that shot him. If he's not shot, then there's a reasonable chance he's scum, but it still guarantees him revealing a check. If he was town, we get that townfirm or scum result out of him, even if we lynch him if he survived.
Maybe you somehow believe it's a good plan, I don't know. It's WiFOM, and I'm having trouble sorting it out. But it's just so bad that I can't wrap my mind around it.
"But why would I do that as scum" isn't exactly a compelling defense.
You advocate it initially because... it might get the cop shot for 'free'.
And you don't back off the plan because... it'd be suspicious to do so? I mean, if you come under fire, you can just use the "Why would I do that as scum defense" if you don't back off.
So you're saying I'm so audacious I've stuck to the plan to make myself appear more townie, rather than ditch the plan and not draw the suspicion in the first place? That doesn't make any sense either. Advocating for vigging Caex is -EV for a scum player, particularly once it's clear nobody else backs that plan.
Let's not forget I thought Caex was scum. I advocated vigging him only because I thought it was more productive (in the information potentially gained, as laid out above) than just lynching him. As I've said before, I didn't trust him enough to let him live. Now, of course, I trust him only inasmuch as I've concocted a strategy basically designed to get him killed if he's town.
Again: this is a game of mindsets. Do you or do you not think my mindset in advocating this plan was genuine? If you think it was genuine, leave me. If you think it was not, lynch me. It's a simple question.
It's Day One. There's more than one scum alive. How can you not trust a cop claim to live a day or two and give results? If he's not shot, and it looks like he's likely scum, you lynch/vig him on d3/n3 or so. If he's town, then you get confirmed checks in the process. If he's scum, then cool. Dead scum.
Like, wanting him dead immediately before he can even 'check' completely discounts the possibility of him being town, and is why I can't reconcile it with a town mindset.
Maybe you are just town that has no grasp on basic mafia theory, but combining that, plus your backpedaling off of Drey once he claims vig has me convinced that it's more sinister.
A cop can't be confirmed before its death or the death of its investigation targets. At that point, it's no better than a vanilla. I don't tend toward leaving roles alive based on unconfirmable supposed value. Hence why I lump in cops with vanillas. You disagree - I get that. Stop thinking about yourself and start thinking about me.
Still not 100% caught up but I've changed my mind on both Caex and DRey and no longer wish to see either of them lynched today.
If it's a choice between Xyre and Voxxicus, there's no contest. Voxx replaced the dubious Che Guevara and claimed vanilla, plus he appears not to have really re-read since he thinks I was trying to be sneaky by "leaving my vote on WoLG" instead of just absent. Xyre hasn't been lily-white so far in this game but his claim's strong enough to leave him in one piece for today. unvote; vote Voxxicus.
Not really sure what's going on with the WoLG/Iso thing and would be interested in hearing the flavor of apparently being masons with a player not in the game (it wouldn't surprise me (much) if he were making the whole thing up, but if he is, he does an impeccable Iso impersonation.)
p.s. This game kind of reminds me of some of the games from the Dark Ages (like 2009-2010 era games, I'm talking about Led Zep, Sword of Truth, South Park, etc) which were basically just Roleclaim Mafia. Run somebody up, they claim, run someone else up, rinse and repeat.
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
First, if both Xyre and Caex are telling the truth, then that means there is a cop, doc, and watcher. That seems highly unlikely at best. I think about how ridiculously powerful the total result is seeming right now and I can't think that it makes sense. It seems really odd that Xyre would consider one half of Caex telling the truth and not the other.
Second, I can't see Xyre advocating that DRey shoots Caex if he's town. He says he wanted to "confirm the vig", but the only thing that it'd confirm is that DRey has a nightkill. Not that DRey is a vig. (I swear he also wanted to lynch DRey after the claim.)
Third, something about the claim's throwing me off.
I'll have to reconsider Wessel as a result of this.
I really don't like that the town has managed to run up the cop, watcher, and vig all Day 1. I'm paranoid of trying to run up anyone else and them claiming doc, then us just lynching Voxx and him actually flipping vanilla townie. I feel like the town is doing terrible this game, or the scum are already caught and false claiming like a mofo. I have no idea what to do other than see what happens with night actions. Voxx is the "safest" lynch (no power role claimed) but he's starting to ring townie to me in his latest interactions with Xyre. The logic behind how Xyre played his role is not something I can see as coming from a townie mindset, but I'm not one to advocate the lynch of a claimed PR on D1. I think we can get a lot more information from night actions tomorrow. If anyone else wants to vote Xyre, I'll go with Iso on this and hammer.
Iso: "Vote Xyre if we're not already. I think Xyre's claim is false, and that we should still lynch him. Voxx is asking Xyre good questions in spite of the vanilla claim. Also, Xyre's reasoning for pushing DRey to Vig Caex is just awful."
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I'll vote Xyre if it comes down to Xyre and no lynching.
You still haven't explained this whole Iso thing.
Phone post, so please forgive bad formatting or grammar.
@zionite: I guess we'll have to see what the next 24 hours brings. I've only played in one game with iso, so i want to get good at my iso impressionin order to bluff him as a gimmick in future games. << >> << >> Not really. I can't say anything more on this today.
How would you feel about lynching Voxx over Xyre and getting everyone's night actions in?
@voxx: can you go more in depth about your role pm flavor?
@everyone else:
If we lynch Voxx, I want Caex to investigate Cy, Xyre, or Wess. Or Xyre lynched: cy, voxx, or wess.
Given DRey's posted reads, I trust him to make the right call on who/if to vig.
If xyre is truthful and isn't lynched: My gut reaction would be to say I trust your reputation to pick a good target, but after your bs logic about caex/drey idek what to say. Watch someone that could provide good info.
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Well Voxx is the smarter lynch, so yes I would vote that way if the votes are there to support it. But we're coming down to the wire here so I'm getting desperate just to have a lynch.
Voxx is sounding better. Vanilla claim is meh (wasn't this labeled as a high-power game?), but I'm much more interested in Cyouni and Zindabad now.
@MOD: Can we get 11th hour prods on DYH and Stardust?
@Zionite: I figured out what's going on with WoLG but it's pointless to reveal now. Stop prodding, but think about characters from the movie/book and draw your own conclusions.
I wanna lynch Xyre. His defence is underwhelming, and he makes an unnecessary last ditch attempt to throw some suspicion my way here.
@WOLG: As for Caex's targets, I prefer these:
If Xyre is lynched: one of Cyouni, Seppel, DYH, and zindabad.
If Voxx is lynched: one of Xyre, Cyouni, and Seppel.
Are those groups regardless of what Xyre's and Voxx's alignments are? Are you assuming Xyre will flip mafia and Voxx flip town, and then going off of that?
* Cop claims, mafia can watch him to find the doc.
* Mafia can watch a player who is very likely to be targeted to find power roles. (Imagine if Tanarin's role in Ataghan were mafia-aligned)
* Mafia can watch another mafiate who is under suspicion so they can be prepared in the morning. (weakest use, IMO)
Watcher is usually the scum role, and tracker is usually the town role. Iso will attest to the overpowered nature of a Watcher+Doc combo when the mafia are down a roleblocker.
And on top of that, Ecophagy reviewed this game, and he just learned from Cyberspace mafia that you don't do Watcher+Doc (and definitely not Watcher+Watcher+Tracker+Doc lol).
@Zionite: I figured out what's going on with WoLG but it's pointless to reveal now. Stop prodding, but think about characters from the movie/book and draw your own conclusions.
I'm pretty familiar with the lore, but I still have no idea how this thing works.
I wanna lynch Xyre. His defence is underwhelming, and he makes an unnecessary last ditch attempt to throw some suspicion my way here.
@WOLG: As for Caex's targets, I prefer these:
If Xyre is lynched: one of Cyouni, Seppel, DYH, and zindabad.
If Voxx is lynched: one of Xyre, Cyouni, and Seppel.
Are those groups regardless of what Xyre's and Voxx's alignments are? Are you assuming Xyre will flip mafia and Voxx flip town, and then going off of that?
I was wondering this myself.
I guess I'll just go with Xyre then. I'm still not positive about it and based on claims it's not the best choice, but I can't ignore tells just because a claim makes the lynch unattractive.
@MOD: Can we get 11th hour prods on DYH and Stardust?
No need for the prod, I'm here now. I had a busy Friday and rarely post on weekends at the best of times.
So a lot happened. Leaving aside the Watcher/Doc combo, I'm trying to figure out where WOLG's role fits into all this. I would usually consider Mason-like roles to best fit as an info role, so that casts Xyre's claim in a worse light. Though same goes for Caex, I guess. Probably one of them is telling the truth; Xyre could have CC'd Caex. I'll have to reread that bit.
Is WOLG Fili and Kili? I just watched the movie this weekend (it was pretty disappointing - so much happened, yet nothing happened!) and that's all I can think of.
Xyre's reasoning for killing Caex makes no sense. I'd feel better if he just stuck with "kill Caex because he's scum" rather than revealing that it was all just a really bad plan. This is especially true with the Watcher claim since Xyre should know that Caex is scum, more than the rest of us at least. Why need the plan at all? It's just bad. Iso's few catches on Xyre are well put, but I don't see how he can think both Caex and Xyre are scum at this point, unless they're both false-claiming an info role. I'll have to reread before I cast a vote. This was all read pretty quickly.
On Voxx, he's feeling a fair bit better from his recent posts. Is his towniness enough to forgive Che's scumminess? Probably.
Stardust is worth looking into - I really don't like the 'I'll respond to your case tomorrow' back and forth with Zionite. It reads like he knows he'll be alive tomorrow.
Oh man, if I was killed tonight I would be super proud. There is no way I'm the right choice for a nightkill with claimed PR's and lots of vets in this game. So, yes, I'm assuming I'll be alive Day 2.
Also, I'm pretty sure I had Che as "leaning town" based on his reads rather than his play. That was an off-the-cuff answer based on my notes at the time.
Anyway, enough people have complained about me not responding to Zionite that I'll try to get time to do that today or tomorrow. Priority goes to deciding who I want to vote for though.
I'm back. I've skimmed, but I don't understand much. And I want to say something here that will probably sound very scummy but it's what I think so I will say anyway.
We should not be lynching Xyre just in case, Voxx is probably town but he should be the lynch today, only because of his claim. Also no one will claim toDay anymore.
Yeah, I know "hey but you weren't pushing for Xyre's lynch, blabla". Xyre and Caex are probably scum but toMorrow we will sort stuff depending on the night results.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Is WOLG Fili and Kili? I just watched the movie this weekend (it was pretty disappointing - so much happened, yet nothing happened!) and that's all I can think of.
I just told Zionite to stop talking about them. Or him. So stop.
Also I have good reason to believe Zindabad to be scum.
Again, I'm not revealing until D2. Let's see what happens tonight.
Oh man, if I was killed tonight I would be super proud. There is no way I'm the right choice for a nightkill with claimed PR's and lots of vets in this game. So, yes, I'm assuming I'll be alive Day 2.
Also, I'm pretty sure I had Che as "leaning town" based on his reads rather than his play. That was an off-the-cuff answer based on my notes at the time.
I'm always reluctant to paraphrase my flavor too extensively. There's not a ton there, and I don't want to risk a modkill.
But like I said, I'm Dori, Town Vanilla.
I ain't got any unique abilities (paraphrased).
I consider myself the most physically able dwarf in the company. No clue why the rest of the company considers me as a tad of a dandy, as it were. But due to the aforementioned strength, they would never say as much directly to me. Regardless, I'm heavily devoted to Throin, and follow him with my head held high. (heavily paraphrased, a lot of words added to ultimately get the same meaning)
I also have no win condition in my role PM. As I said earlier, I'm not sure if that's something all town lack, or if it was just a mistake when he gave me the replacement PM.
And that's about as complete as I can claim.
It's a high power game, and I'd guess I'm the only vanilla, or maybe there's 1-2 more. I can understand lynching me because it's 'safe' but if you think I'm town, then lynching me is dumb. I'm going to flip town, and you won't learn much from my flip - it's been an easy-to-justify lynch for people due to Che's bad play, and the opposing claim.
If I'm not lynched today, my goal will be to make the mafia want to shoot me, despite the vanilla claim. I'll re-read, I'll dump analysis on previous voting patterns and interactions as we get more flips, and generally be a nuisance to keep alive.
But seriously, people just kind of handwaving it away as 'I guess I can lynch either of them' is just bad. Or being willing to lynch me despite having a growing town read on me. Or trying to distance themselves from the read by saying it's solely based on my predecessor.
This lynch is bad, and if you're town and considering it, you should feel bad.
The problem is, I'm not 100% sure I want to lynch Xyre.
His play in a vacuum makes him extremely likely scum, but that doesn't always mean someone is scum. And a watcher can be fairly powerful. If he's alive, he can watch Caex, which forces them to either let Caex get a check off, block Xyre, or not use their roleblock and have Xyre claim blocked.
From a modgaming perspective, they have to have a roleblock if he's town. Watcher + Cop is too strong otherwise.
But that'd mean an alternative lynch would have to be pushed in the next what, 24-ish hours?
And I'm not sure how viable that is. Especially given how people have just been sitting back as the deadline approaches.
I'm looking at you, DYH - you come in with the guns blazing and fixate on me, and then vanish.
I hope anyone who still thinks DRey is scum somehow looks at his last post and realizes he's passing up an easy lynch, so unless we're scumbuddies (and playing terribly together), he's town. If I die, that'll be clear.
I'm still not getting a scum sense of Voxx. It's the little things, like his response to my claim. Oh, and this is interesting:
I mean, I get that the people bulldogging into me are just going to say it's bussing, but pull heads out of rectums, acknowledge that bad play does not equal scum, and let's actually lynch someone who has a chance to be scum.
Since that's not me.
"Are going to say" = future, meaning "After Xyre is lynched (and flips scum), people will say I bussed my scumbuddy." He genuinely believes I'll flip scum and that he'll pay for such a play; I don't see a scum thinking of a player he'd know to be a townie like this. (And while I know we can't be scumbuddies, also note that this would be a really stupid thing for someone to openly acknowledge about their bussing.)
He's town, people.
I still like my three scum suspects for Caex's random investigation target: zindabad, Cyouni, and Wessel.
Quote from Stardust »
Though same goes for Caex, I guess. Probably one of them is telling the truth; Xyre could have CC'd Caex.
I suppose in retrospect that probably had some impact on my disbelief of his claim, though it'd hardly be the first time a cop and a watcher have been on the same team.
* Cop claims, mafia can watch him to find the doc.
* Mafia can watch a player who is very likely to be targeted to find power roles. (Imagine if Tanarin's role in Ataghan were mafia-aligned)
* Mafia can watch another mafiate who is under suspicion so they can be prepared in the morning. (weakest use, IMO)
Watcher is usually the scum role, and tracker is usually the town role. Iso will attest to the overpowered nature of a Watcher+Doc combo when the mafia are down a roleblocker.
And on top of that, Ecophagy reviewed this game, and he just learned from Cyberspace mafia that you don't do Watcher+Doc (and definitely not Watcher+Watcher+Tracker+Doc lol).
Overpowered for whom? Because you seem to be phrasing it so as to be talking about a town watcher, not a scum one.
I'd love to see other examples of scum watchers - usually they're given more than just that, if memory serves, just because while the ability can be powerful in theory, those cases are on the fringe. (Say you target the most suspicious player after Night 1 and you get three names - well, which of those are cops, which of those are role negators, which of those are just roles of marginal power? You don't know, and what's worse, you have to wait a full day to take advantage of that information.)
I see four of us invisibly watching this thread. We still have thirteen hours. I'm sure we can do better than "scummy replacement" and "scummy aggressive guy" if we put in a little effort.
Watcher is usually the scum role, and tracker is usually the town role. Iso will attest to the overpowered nature of a Watcher+Doc combo when the mafia are down a roleblocker.
And on top of that, Ecophagy reviewed this game, and he just learned from Cyberspace mafia that you don't do Watcher+Doc (and definitely not Watcher+Watcher+Tracker+Doc lol).
Watcher+Watcher+self-Watcher+Doc honestly killed all my motivation.
Overpowered for whom? Because you seem to be phrasing it so as to be talking about a town watcher, not a scum one.
I'd love to see other examples of scum watchers - usually they're given more than just that, if memory serves, just because while the ability can be powerful in theory, those cases are on the fringe. (Say you target the most suspicious player after Night 1 and you get three names - well, which of those are cops, which of those are role negators, which of those are just roles of marginal power? You don't know, and what's worse, you have to wait a full day to take advantage of that information.)
I'm sorry - is this saying that you're not scum because your role's not powerful enough?
Because there's no possibility that you held something back?
And not to mention - barring some sort of Day equivalent, in what world would you not have to wait a day to take advantage of information gained during the night?
We should not be lynching Xyre just in case, Voxx is probably town but he should be the lynch today, only because of his claim. Also no one will claim toDay anymore.
Terrible idea. There's no reason to avoid lynching someone who's probably scum to go after someone's who's probably town just because they're vanilla.
I see four of us invisibly watching this thread. We still have thirteen hours. I'm sure we can do better than "scummy replacement" and "scummy aggressive guy" if we put in a little effort.
"Guys, we can do better than lynch two scummy players."
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
I see four of us invisibly watching this thread. We still have thirteen hours. I'm sure we can do better than "scummy replacement" and "scummy aggressive guy" if we put in a little effort.
"Guys, we can do better than lynch two scummy players."
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
I see four of us invisibly watching this thread. We still have thirteen hours. I'm sure we can do better than "scummy replacement" and "scummy aggressive guy" if we put in a little effort.
"Guys, we can do better than lynch two scummy players."
Wut.
That's not what he's saying.
Then what is he saying?
That those are two default lynches. Voxxicus has played like a townie, but he's facing down the two strikes of being a replacement and having replaced a player whom people thought was scummy (though his biggest crime was just being a lurker), and while I admit I've had some suspicious opinions, they've reflected an aggressive playstyle, not a nefarious plan, and there hasn't been any analysis of the difference.
Both are bad lynches, and they're bad lynches that people are defaulting toward. And lynching replacements and players you disagree with has never been a sound strategy, historically. That's my point.
Maybe if you didn't read everything I said in kneejerk fashion, we could have a serious conversation about what we can accomplish in 36 hours.
Overpowered for whom? Because you seem to be phrasing it so as to be talking about a town watcher, not a scum one.
I'd love to see other examples of scum watchers - usually they're given more than just that, if memory serves, just because while the ability can be powerful in theory, those cases are on the fringe. (Say you target the most suspicious player after Night 1 and you get three names - well, which of those are cops, which of those are role negators, which of those are just roles of marginal power? You don't know, and what's worse, you have to wait a full day to take advantage of that information.)
I'm sorry - is this saying that you're not scum because your role's not powerful enough?
Because there's no possibility that you held something back?
And not to mention - barring some sort of Day equivalent, in what world would you not have to wait a day to take advantage of information gained during the night?
Of course I could be holding something back. You need to decide whether "watcher + [ability that could only work on scum and was withheld as a result]" is a reasonable setup design.
The difference between town investigative roles and scum is the town can use the information during the day, by lynching people doing scummy things/revealed to be scum, whereas the mafia always have to wait at least a day (to nightkill the target) - and that's on top of the clarity problems I noted to Seppel.
That's why, when you see a scum investigative role, it's usually more overtly powerful, like a rolecop. It has no ambiguity, and it rewards the mafia for identifying the power roles directly, rather than getting lucky with who will target whom.
Firstly, for what feels like the one-millionth time since I've returned to playing mafia: I generally post from work and not at all on weekends. This is especially redundant coming from Seppel who has been in every game with me since I've returned. It's understandable, at least, from Voxx's perspective as I don't believe we've played together at all - but I don't like his phrasing in the least as it pertains to me "guns blazing... fixate... vanish", as well as "tunneling".
Guess what? That's what I do. Go look at every game I've been in since I returned. Once I've settled on my target, my vote has remained there.
I see absolutely nothing that leads me to believe you're the wrong lynch, Voxx. Your predecessor was scummy, and you're blowing a bunch of hot air. Your claim sucks. Add it all up, and I'm perfectly fine leaving my vote where it is.
I condone Zindabad being shot tonight. This is a mirror image of Cyberspace (and to some extent, at least on the lurking approach Led Zeppelin.)
I have my doubts about Xyre's claim, but again - similar to the cop scenario - give him the opportunity to use and prove it.
I see four of us invisibly watching this thread. We still have thirteen hours. I'm sure we can do better than "scummy replacement" and "scummy aggressive guy" if we put in a little effort.
"Guys, we can do better than lynch two scummy players."
Wut.
That's not what he's saying.
Then what is he saying?
That those are two default lynches. Voxxicus has played like a townie, but he's facing down the two strikes of being a replacement and having replaced a player whom people thought was scummy (though his biggest crime was just being a lurker), and while I admit I've had some suspicious opinions, they've reflected an aggressive playstyle, not a nefarious plan, and there hasn't been any analysis of the difference.
Both are bad lynches, and they're bad lynches that people are defaulting toward. And lynching replacements and players you disagree with has never been a sound strategy, historically. That's my point.
Maybe if you didn't read everything I said in kneejerk fashion, we could have a serious conversation about what we can accomplish in 36 hours.
I saw something that didn't make sense, so I brought it up. I do that. Subtext isn't really my thing.
What makes you consider yourself a "default lynch"? I can see where you're coming from with Voxxicus, having claimed vanilla and in a bad position due to Che's behavior, but I wouldn't consider you a default.
Preview edit: That setup gaming isn't helpful. Considering nobody knows anyone else's roles, we have really no way to know if a Watcher makes sense in this setup. Especially with the inclusion of passive abilities, which could be tailored to balance the game out (like my role, for example). Saying "You have to decide if it's reasonable setup design" is misleading, because it'll be impossible to know if it makes sense until we actually know the full setup.
Double preview edit: I endorse zindabad being shot. I was spectating Cyberspace mafia and zindabad's first posts in that game boiled down to this:
-"Catching up, expect a post"
-"Catching up, expect a post"
-"Summary of 1/3 of the game"
-"Still here, catching up"
-"Summary of the rest of the game"
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
And before you say "oh you're a hypocrite because you're using your claim to save yourself": I've been completely up-front about the fact that I'm a likely RB target tonight, so my claim proves nothing. Either you trust me or you don't, and you should vote accordingly. (But that won't stop me from telling you why you're wrong.)
Actually setup gaming is pretty good at determining alignments or at least dichotomies and thinking a bit more and knowing what I know about Eco I'm sure there's no way we have both an unlimited cop plus unlimited watcher as town.
In the end one or two of Xyre and Caex are scum, so I think we should kill one of them toDay, considering Caex behavior is much worse than Xyre's and so far we have no claimed doctor nor roleblocker I think his lynch is more likely to be fake after all, let's lynch him because if any of you disagree cop + watcher is a dichotomy you certainly won't vig, plus cop, plus watcher, plus doc is REALLY a big nono for town.
unvote, vote Caex
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
We should not be lynching Xyre just in case, Voxx is probably town but he should be the lynch today, only because of his claim. Also no one will claim toDay anymore.
Yeah, I know "hey but you weren't pushing for Xyre's lynch, blabla". Xyre and Caex are probably scum but toMorrow we will sort stuff depending on the night results.
Actually setup gaming is pretty good at determining alignments or at least dichotomies and thinking a bit more and knowing what I know about Eco I'm sure there's no way we have both an unlimited cop plus unlimited watcher as town.
In the end one or two of Xyre and Caex are scum, so I think we should kill one of them toDay, considering Caex behavior is much worse than Xyre's and so far we have no claimed doctor nor roleblocker I think his lynch is more likely to be fake after all, let's lynch him because if any of you disagree cop + watcher is a dichotomy you certainly won't vig, plus cop, plus watcher, plus doc is REALLY a big nono for town.
unvote, vote Caex
He literally just said we should let Xyre and I live and sort everything out once we can see the results of night actions, then the exact opposite a few posts later.
This part is particularly contradictory: "We should not be lynching Xyre just in case" followed by a "In the end one or two of Xyre and Caex are scum, so I think we should kill one of them toDay" in the next post.
If we can get enough people for a DRey lynch before the deadline, I'm all for it.
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
A list of the scummy things Wessel's done
- Using loaded language ("vehement", "outrage", "injustice", "suffocation") to express an outrage that doesn't manifest in the rest of his posts, in order to look like an angry townie (see 390 and 508
That's Wessel. I've talked to him a fair bit outside Mafia games and he's the kind of guy that won't compromise his writing for anything. He's going to present everything in a certain order, at a certain time and in a certain way and not let emotion get the better of him. Any emotion that he does show he chooses to show, so it feels weird because it's an angry word amid a sea of calm rationality. But that's Wessel.
- The ZDS overhead in 381 (explained in 384, 477, and 508): structured a post to put an indirect accusation of me (by drawing a parallel between my play and that of ZDS in Megiddo's Avatar Mafia, and leaving the conclusion to implication) which he admitted he did to get other players involved in suspecting me while keeping himself clear/forcing himself to say directly I'm scum
Yes, this one you've got a point on, I'll give you that.
- The Zionite trap reversal (see 400 and 435): has shifted his explanation for his original vote on Zionite, and tried to explain it away as an elaborate (and frankly inexplicable) trap
(The above two reflect what I would argue is a greater trend of retroactively explaining his reasoning, which I first cited in 370.)
If you were able to show a contradiction, you'd have a lot more here. Because there isn't one, I'm inclined to believe Wessel's retroactive reasoning. It doesn't contradict anything he's said before, so I'm not sure why you would even consider this a tell. You ask for reasoning, he gives you, you say it's retroactive and therefore scummy. I don't think that last step is required.
- Has shifted his level of suspicion of me in direct relation to how much pressure I'm putting on him, indicating the disingenuousness of his opinion of me and suggesting he's using that as another tool to try to throw me off his trail (or throw other players on me) (commented on in 477, among others)
His case on you is weak too. A lot of it hinges on it being a bad attack against a townie and even though I think he is a townie, I can't give credit to that. But anyway, I'm not surprised it ebbs and flows with your irrationality considering that's his major point against you.
So there you go, Xyre. That's how I see your case. Maybe Wessel is scum, but I really don't think so.
@Caex my stance is ever changing because I'm actually thinking about all possibilities when presented with new info or careful analysis. After thinking about it some more I'm pretty sure I've nailed correct course of action for toDay and hopefully scumYou will be lynched now.
@Star while I also think Xyre's case is bad and Wessel is town, don't you agree that he can defend himself?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
But anyway, I'm not surprised it ebbs and flows with your irrationality considering that's his major point against you.
But that's the thing - it doesn't ebb and flow based on my opinion on killing Caex, it ebbs and flows with my opinion on HIM.
And of the other three points, none of them were "irrational", even in your view. They were, if I summarize fairly, "Wessel being Wessel", correct, and inadequate, respectively. I don't view any of those as "irrational" by any stretch.
No, the reason Wessel suspects me more or less is because he's closely following my opinion of him, as I exhaustively laid out. And knowing what I know of him, I highly doubt it's just a reflexive, narcissistic OMGUSiness. No, it feels calculated. Care to comment on that?
You ask for reasoning, he gives you, you say it's retroactive and therefore scummy. I don't think that last step is required.
That last part is weird. Why is it not "required"? Explain.
Following up on my previous post, Wessel's not scum, so who is?
I would still love to lynch Zionite, but I don't think I'll have time to get a case together by the end of the Day. His vote jumping towards the end here really solidifies that read for me. One thing I will note is that he didn't vote hop with his suspicion of Voxxicus, but did actually change his vote for every other hop he's made (from me to Wessel to Voxxicus to Xyre). The last happened after Xyre claimed Watcher. I especially don't like that, all the more since Zionite still believes Caex to be scum. Most likely one of them is lying... so lynch Xyre!!
But I can't get the rest of the case together right now (if ya'll just want to believe me, that would be awesome!), so who else is an option?
Caex and Xyre have effectively CC'd each other. Part of me just wants to lynch Caex since I do still think he's scum... but he's not roleblockable. If he survives the night he's either scum or town with a result. Handing the mafia our cop as today's lynch is not something I'm willing to risk when they'll have to kill him if he's town. Xyre can wait until we know Caex's alignment. Since I believe Caex to be scum, for the moment I believe Xyre is town. Unless we have two info roles. That will hopefully become apparent as the game moves forward.
Then there are Cyouni and zindabad as two that I would be up for supporting. It's somewhat lazier in zindabad's case, but it's better than nolynch and his last couple posts have rubbed me the wrong way. Cyouni I actually do have a feeling is scum (Xyre's case was pretty good), so that would be my preference of the two.
But anyway, I'm not surprised it ebbs and flows with your irrationality considering that's his major point against you.
But that's the thing - it doesn't ebb and flow based on my opinion on killing Caex, it ebbs and flows with my opinion on HIM.
Yeah, right, that's what I was talking about. So when I say you're making irrational attacks, I mean irrational from his point of view. He sees himself as town being attacked for irrational reasons. That irrationality is the main reason he thinks you're scum, so the more you ease up the more he questions his read. I'm not saying this proves he's town, only that I can see the town mindset there. I can see myself having a similar reaction, and it's apparently prevalent enough to get its own acronym around here.
No, the reason Wessel suspects me more or less is because he's closely following my opinion of him, as I exhaustively laid out. And knowing what I know of him, I highly doubt it's just a reflexive, narcissistic OMGUSiness. No, it feels calculated. Care to comment on that?
My only comment would be that you may be right, but that's always the case. Every scum move in this game is calculated. A lot of town moves are too. Debating whether or not something is calculated will lead us nowhere. All I can really say is that reading through his posts I never got the feeling that he had an underlying motivation. They are calculated (or at least carefully arranged)... but does that make them scummy?
You ask for reasoning, he gives you, you say it's retroactive and therefore scummy. I don't think that last step is required.
That last part is weird. Why is it not "required"? Explain.
"That last step" refers to that last leap of logic from retroactive to scummy. Of course his reasoning is retroactive. He's explaining himself after the fact. But I don't think that necessarily makes him scum.
I would still love to lynch Zionite, but I don't think I'll have time to get a case together by the end of the Day. His vote jumping towards the end here really solidifies that read for me. One thing I will note is that he didn't vote hop with his suspicion of Voxxicus, but did actually change his vote for every other hop he's made (from me to Wessel to Voxxicus to Xyre). The last happened after Xyre claimed Watcher. I especially don't like that, all the more since Zionite still believes Caex to be scum. Most likely one of them is lying... so lynch Xyre!!
You are so scum. You had plenty of time to convince the town to lynch me and you decided to coast to the end instead, so you don't have the right to complain about me not being lynched. You also decided not to respond to my case due to "more important discussions", but if you actually thought I was scum then that would have been the most important discussion to have.
I'm vote hopping because a lynch is better than nothing and we don't have the luxury of time for fence sitting and screwing around. I also don't see a dichotomy between Xyre and Caex since I think Caex is lying. Xyre could very well be telling the truth about his claim and still be scum.
And there goes all my town read of Seppel down the drain. Seriously that you want to see the tenth claim toDay when we already have perfectly fine options? Not only behavioral but a dichotomy (Caex, Xyre), and a low risk VT claim.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
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Then you watch Caex.
If Caex dies, it's pretty much confirmed to be scum that shot him. If he's not shot, then there's a reasonable chance he's scum, but it still guarantees him revealing a check. If he was town, we get that townfirm or scum result out of him, even if we lynch him if he survived.
Maybe you somehow believe it's a good plan, I don't know. It's WiFOM, and I'm having trouble sorting it out. But it's just so bad that I can't wrap my mind around it.
You advocate it initially because... it might get the cop shot for 'free'.
And you don't back off the plan because... it'd be suspicious to do so? I mean, if you come under fire, you can just use the "Why would I do that as scum defense" if you don't back off.
Oh, wait.
Have Xyre 'watch' Caex tonight, Drey shoot a non-Xyre or non-Caex scumread.
We lynch... I don't know. Cyouni? I'd be okay with a Cyouni lynch.
And... Xyre claims to be roleblocked, and it all falls apart. Or he actually /does/ get roleblocked in the unlikely event he's town.
There's probably not an elegant solution with what we have claimed.
Let's not forget I thought Caex was scum. I advocated vigging him only because I thought it was more productive (in the information potentially gained, as laid out above) than just lynching him. As I've said before, I didn't trust him enough to let him live. Now, of course, I trust him only inasmuch as I've concocted a strategy basically designed to get him killed if he's town.
Again: this is a game of mindsets. Do you or do you not think my mindset in advocating this plan was genuine? If you think it was genuine, leave me. If you think it was not, lynch me. It's a simple question.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Like, wanting him dead immediately before he can even 'check' completely discounts the possibility of him being town, and is why I can't reconcile it with a town mindset.
Maybe you are just town that has no grasp on basic mafia theory, but combining that, plus your backpedaling off of Drey once he claims vig has me convinced that it's more sinister.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
If it's a choice between Xyre and Voxxicus, there's no contest. Voxx replaced the dubious Che Guevara and claimed vanilla, plus he appears not to have really re-read since he thinks I was trying to be sneaky by "leaving my vote on WoLG" instead of just absent. Xyre hasn't been lily-white so far in this game but his claim's strong enough to leave him in one piece for today. unvote; vote Voxxicus.
Not really sure what's going on with the WoLG/Iso thing and would be interested in hearing the flavor of apparently being masons with a player not in the game (it wouldn't surprise me (much) if he were making the whole thing up, but if he is, he does an impeccable Iso impersonation.)
p.s. This game kind of reminds me of some of the games from the Dark Ages (like 2009-2010 era games, I'm talking about Led Zep, Sword of Truth, South Park, etc) which were basically just Roleclaim Mafia. Run somebody up, they claim, run someone else up, rinse and repeat.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
I don't like you, zinda. You always seem behind the curve when it's convenient.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
{Magic: The RPG}
First, if both Xyre and Caex are telling the truth, then that means there is a cop, doc, and watcher. That seems highly unlikely at best. I think about how ridiculously powerful the total result is seeming right now and I can't think that it makes sense. It seems really odd that Xyre would consider one half of Caex telling the truth and not the other.
Second, I can't see Xyre advocating that DRey shoots Caex if he's town. He says he wanted to "confirm the vig", but the only thing that it'd confirm is that DRey has a nightkill. Not that DRey is a vig. (I swear he also wanted to lynch DRey after the claim.)
Third, something about the claim's throwing me off.
I'll have to reconsider Wessel as a result of this.
More when I wake up.
Xyre (5): DRey, Voxxicus, Wessel, Caex Kothar, Seppel
Voxxicus (2): DYH, zindabad
Wessel (2): Xyre, Zionite
Not Voting (3): Cyouni, Stardust, WellOfLostGnomes
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Day One will end no later than 11:59PM, Tuesday, April 30th (less than 45 hours from this post.)
Iso: "Vote Xyre if we're not already. I think Xyre's claim is false, and that we should still lynch him. Voxx is asking Xyre good questions in spite of the vanilla claim. Also, Xyre's reasoning for pushing DRey to Vig Caex is just awful."
-[thread=14456]The [Untitled] Avatar and Sig shop![/thread] Avatar from:[thread=25376] [Epic Graphics][/thread]
Awards:
Elegant Mafia: The Joker, Mafia MVP
You still haven't explained this whole Iso thing.
Phone post, so please forgive bad formatting or grammar.
@zionite: I guess we'll have to see what the next 24 hours brings. I've only played in one game with iso, so i want to get good at my iso impressionin order to bluff him as a gimmick in future games. << >> << >> Not really. I can't say anything more on this today.
How would you feel about lynching Voxx over Xyre and getting everyone's night actions in?
@voxx: can you go more in depth about your role pm flavor?
@everyone else:
If we lynch Voxx, I want Caex to investigate Cy, Xyre, or Wess. Or Xyre lynched: cy, voxx, or wess.
Given DRey's posted reads, I trust him to make the right call on who/if to vig.
If xyre is truthful and isn't lynched: My gut reaction would be to say I trust your reputation to pick a good target, but after your bs logic about caex/drey idek what to say. Watch someone that could provide good info.
-[thread=14456]The [Untitled] Avatar and Sig shop![/thread] Avatar from:[thread=25376] [Epic Graphics][/thread]
Awards:
Elegant Mafia: The Joker, Mafia MVP
@MOD: Can we get 11th hour prods on DYH and Stardust?
@Zionite: I figured out what's going on with WoLG but it's pointless to reveal now. Stop prodding, but think about characters from the movie/book and draw your own conclusions.
Are those groups regardless of what Xyre's and Voxx's alignments are? Are you assuming Xyre will flip mafia and Voxx flip town, and then going off of that?
Really, Xyre?
* Cop claims, mafia can watch him to find the doc.
* Mafia can watch a player who is very likely to be targeted to find power roles. (Imagine if Tanarin's role in Ataghan were mafia-aligned)
* Mafia can watch another mafiate who is under suspicion so they can be prepared in the morning. (weakest use, IMO)
Watcher is usually the scum role, and tracker is usually the town role. Iso will attest to the overpowered nature of a Watcher+Doc combo when the mafia are down a roleblocker.
And on top of that, Ecophagy reviewed this game, and he just learned from Cyberspace mafia that you don't do Watcher+Doc (and definitely not Watcher+Watcher+Tracker+Doc lol).
I'm pretty familiar with the lore, but I still have no idea how this thing works.
I was wondering this myself.
I guess I'll just go with Xyre then. I'm still not positive about it and based on claims it's not the best choice, but I can't ignore tells just because a claim makes the lynch unattractive.
Unvote, vote Xyre
Drop the hammer whenever.
No need for the prod, I'm here now. I had a busy Friday and rarely post on weekends at the best of times.
So a lot happened. Leaving aside the Watcher/Doc combo, I'm trying to figure out where WOLG's role fits into all this. I would usually consider Mason-like roles to best fit as an info role, so that casts Xyre's claim in a worse light. Though same goes for Caex, I guess. Probably one of them is telling the truth; Xyre could have CC'd Caex. I'll have to reread that bit.
Is WOLG Fili and Kili? I just watched the movie this weekend (it was pretty disappointing - so much happened, yet nothing happened!) and that's all I can think of.
Xyre's reasoning for killing Caex makes no sense. I'd feel better if he just stuck with "kill Caex because he's scum" rather than revealing that it was all just a really bad plan. This is especially true with the Watcher claim since Xyre should know that Caex is scum, more than the rest of us at least. Why need the plan at all? It's just bad. Iso's few catches on Xyre are well put, but I don't see how he can think both Caex and Xyre are scum at this point, unless they're both false-claiming an info role. I'll have to reread before I cast a vote. This was all read pretty quickly.
On Voxx, he's feeling a fair bit better from his recent posts. Is his towniness enough to forgive Che's scumminess? Probably.
Oh man, if I was killed tonight I would be super proud. There is no way I'm the right choice for a nightkill with claimed PR's and lots of vets in this game. So, yes, I'm assuming I'll be alive Day 2.
Also, I'm pretty sure I had Che as "leaning town" based on his reads rather than his play. That was an off-the-cuff answer based on my notes at the time.
Anyway, enough people have complained about me not responding to Zionite that I'll try to get time to do that today or tomorrow. Priority goes to deciding who I want to vote for though.
We should not be lynching Xyre just in case, Voxx is probably town but he should be the lynch today, only because of his claim. Also no one will claim toDay anymore.
Yeah, I know "hey but you weren't pushing for Xyre's lynch, blabla". Xyre and Caex are probably scum but toMorrow we will sort stuff depending on the night results.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
I just told Zionite to stop talking about them. Or him. So stop.
Also I have good reason to believe Zindabad to be scum.
Again, I'm not revealing until D2. Let's see what happens tonight.
I like this.
Who asked you about this?
Voxxicus.
But like I said, I'm Dori, Town Vanilla.
I ain't got any unique abilities (paraphrased).
I consider myself the most physically able dwarf in the company. No clue why the rest of the company considers me as a tad of a dandy, as it were. But due to the aforementioned strength, they would never say as much directly to me. Regardless, I'm heavily devoted to Throin, and follow him with my head held high. (heavily paraphrased, a lot of words added to ultimately get the same meaning)
I also have no win condition in my role PM. As I said earlier, I'm not sure if that's something all town lack, or if it was just a mistake when he gave me the replacement PM.
And that's about as complete as I can claim.
It's a high power game, and I'd guess I'm the only vanilla, or maybe there's 1-2 more. I can understand lynching me because it's 'safe' but if you think I'm town, then lynching me is dumb. I'm going to flip town, and you won't learn much from my flip - it's been an easy-to-justify lynch for people due to Che's bad play, and the opposing claim.
If I'm not lynched today, my goal will be to make the mafia want to shoot me, despite the vanilla claim. I'll re-read, I'll dump analysis on previous voting patterns and interactions as we get more flips, and generally be a nuisance to keep alive.
But seriously, people just kind of handwaving it away as 'I guess I can lynch either of them' is just bad. Or being willing to lynch me despite having a growing town read on me. Or trying to distance themselves from the read by saying it's solely based on my predecessor.
This lynch is bad, and if you're town and considering it, you should feel bad.
The problem is, I'm not 100% sure I want to lynch Xyre.
His play in a vacuum makes him extremely likely scum, but that doesn't always mean someone is scum. And a watcher can be fairly powerful. If he's alive, he can watch Caex, which forces them to either let Caex get a check off, block Xyre, or not use their roleblock and have Xyre claim blocked.
From a modgaming perspective, they have to have a roleblock if he's town. Watcher + Cop is too strong otherwise.
But that'd mean an alternative lynch would have to be pushed in the next what, 24-ish hours?
And I'm not sure how viable that is. Especially given how people have just been sitting back as the deadline approaches.
I'm looking at you, DYH - you come in with the guns blazing and fixate on me, and then vanish.
I'm still not getting a scum sense of Voxx. It's the little things, like his response to my claim. Oh, and this is interesting:
"Are going to say" = future, meaning "After Xyre is lynched (and flips scum), people will say I bussed my scumbuddy." He genuinely believes I'll flip scum and that he'll pay for such a play; I don't see a scum thinking of a player he'd know to be a townie like this. (And while I know we can't be scumbuddies, also note that this would be a really stupid thing for someone to openly acknowledge about their bussing.)
He's town, people.
I still like my three scum suspects for Caex's random investigation target: zindabad, Cyouni, and Wessel.
I suppose in retrospect that probably had some impact on my disbelief of his claim, though it'd hardly be the first time a cop and a watcher have been on the same team.
Overpowered for whom? Because you seem to be phrasing it so as to be talking about a town watcher, not a scum one.
I'd love to see other examples of scum watchers - usually they're given more than just that, if memory serves, just because while the ability can be powerful in theory, those cases are on the fringe. (Say you target the most suspicious player after Night 1 and you get three names - well, which of those are cops, which of those are role negators, which of those are just roles of marginal power? You don't know, and what's worse, you have to wait a full day to take advantage of that information.)
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
What if someone's reading you as scum? Why is that not taken into account?
I'm sorry - is this saying that you're not scum because your role's not powerful enough?
Because there's no possibility that you held something back?
And not to mention - barring some sort of Day equivalent, in what world would you not have to wait a day to take advantage of information gained during the night?
Terrible idea. There's no reason to avoid lynching someone who's probably scum to go after someone's who's probably town just because they're vanilla.
Xyre (5): Voxxicus, Wessel, Caex Kothar, Seppel, Zionite
Voxxicus (2): DYH, zindabad
Wessel (1): Xyre
Not Voting (4): Cyouni, DRey, Stardust, WellOfLostGnomes
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Day One will end no later than 11:59PM, Tuesday, April 30th (less than 36 hours from this post.)
DYH will be due for a prod if he does not post by 5:10PM EST today.
Wut.
{Magic: The RPG}
{Magic: The RPG}
That those are two default lynches. Voxxicus has played like a townie, but he's facing down the two strikes of being a replacement and having replaced a player whom people thought was scummy (though his biggest crime was just being a lurker), and while I admit I've had some suspicious opinions, they've reflected an aggressive playstyle, not a nefarious plan, and there hasn't been any analysis of the difference.
Both are bad lynches, and they're bad lynches that people are defaulting toward. And lynching replacements and players you disagree with has never been a sound strategy, historically. That's my point.
Maybe if you didn't read everything I said in kneejerk fashion, we could have a serious conversation about what we can accomplish in 36 hours.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Of course I could be holding something back. You need to decide whether "watcher + [ability that could only work on scum and was withheld as a result]" is a reasonable setup design.
The difference between town investigative roles and scum is the town can use the information during the day, by lynching people doing scummy things/revealed to be scum, whereas the mafia always have to wait at least a day (to nightkill the target) - and that's on top of the clarity problems I noted to Seppel.
That's why, when you see a scum investigative role, it's usually more overtly powerful, like a rolecop. It has no ambiguity, and it rewards the mafia for identifying the power roles directly, rather than getting lucky with who will target whom.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Guess what? That's what I do. Go look at every game I've been in since I returned. Once I've settled on my target, my vote has remained there.
I see absolutely nothing that leads me to believe you're the wrong lynch, Voxx. Your predecessor was scummy, and you're blowing a bunch of hot air. Your claim sucks. Add it all up, and I'm perfectly fine leaving my vote where it is.
I condone Zindabad being shot tonight. This is a mirror image of Cyberspace (and to some extent, at least on the lurking approach Led Zeppelin.)
I have my doubts about Xyre's claim, but again - similar to the cop scenario - give him the opportunity to use and prove it.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
What makes you consider yourself a "default lynch"? I can see where you're coming from with Voxxicus, having claimed vanilla and in a bad position due to Che's behavior, but I wouldn't consider you a default.
Preview edit: That setup gaming isn't helpful. Considering nobody knows anyone else's roles, we have really no way to know if a Watcher makes sense in this setup. Especially with the inclusion of passive abilities, which could be tailored to balance the game out (like my role, for example). Saying "You have to decide if it's reasonable setup design" is misleading, because it'll be impossible to know if it makes sense until we actually know the full setup.
Double preview edit: I endorse zindabad being shot. I was spectating Cyberspace mafia and zindabad's first posts in that game boiled down to this:
-"Catching up, expect a post"
-"Catching up, expect a post"
-"Summary of 1/3 of the game"
-"Still here, catching up"
-"Summary of the rest of the game"
Looks mighty familiar.
{Magic: The RPG}
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
In the end one or two of Xyre and Caex are scum, so I think we should kill one of them toDay, considering Caex behavior is much worse than Xyre's and so far we have no claimed doctor nor roleblocker I think his lynch is more likely to be fake after all, let's lynch him because if any of you disagree cop + watcher is a dichotomy you certainly won't vig, plus cop, plus watcher, plus doc is REALLY a big nono for town.
unvote, vote Caex
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Make any sort of sense with this... He literally just said we should let Xyre and I live and sort everything out once we can see the results of night actions, then the exact opposite a few posts later.
This part is particularly contradictory: "We should not be lynching Xyre just in case" followed by a "In the end one or two of Xyre and Caex are scum, so I think we should kill one of them toDay" in the next post.
If we can get enough people for a DRey lynch before the deadline, I'm all for it.
{Magic: The RPG}
That's Wessel. I've talked to him a fair bit outside Mafia games and he's the kind of guy that won't compromise his writing for anything. He's going to present everything in a certain order, at a certain time and in a certain way and not let emotion get the better of him. Any emotion that he does show he chooses to show, so it feels weird because it's an angry word amid a sea of calm rationality. But that's Wessel.
Yes, this one you've got a point on, I'll give you that.
If you were able to show a contradiction, you'd have a lot more here. Because there isn't one, I'm inclined to believe Wessel's retroactive reasoning. It doesn't contradict anything he's said before, so I'm not sure why you would even consider this a tell. You ask for reasoning, he gives you, you say it's retroactive and therefore scummy. I don't think that last step is required.
His case on you is weak too. A lot of it hinges on it being a bad attack against a townie and even though I think he is a townie, I can't give credit to that. But anyway, I'm not surprised it ebbs and flows with your irrationality considering that's his major point against you.
So there you go, Xyre. That's how I see your case. Maybe Wessel is scum, but I really don't think so.
@Star while I also think Xyre's case is bad and Wessel is town, don't you agree that he can defend himself?
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
But that's the thing - it doesn't ebb and flow based on my opinion on killing Caex, it ebbs and flows with my opinion on HIM.
And of the other three points, none of them were "irrational", even in your view. They were, if I summarize fairly, "Wessel being Wessel", correct, and inadequate, respectively. I don't view any of those as "irrational" by any stretch.
No, the reason Wessel suspects me more or less is because he's closely following my opinion of him, as I exhaustively laid out. And knowing what I know of him, I highly doubt it's just a reflexive, narcissistic OMGUSiness. No, it feels calculated. Care to comment on that?
That last part is weird. Why is it not "required"? Explain.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Unvote, Vote zindabad
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I would still love to lynch Zionite, but I don't think I'll have time to get a case together by the end of the Day. His vote jumping towards the end here really solidifies that read for me. One thing I will note is that he didn't vote hop with his suspicion of Voxxicus, but did actually change his vote for every other hop he's made (from me to Wessel to Voxxicus to Xyre). The last happened after Xyre claimed Watcher. I especially don't like that, all the more since Zionite still believes Caex to be scum. Most likely one of them is lying... so lynch Xyre!!
But I can't get the rest of the case together right now (if ya'll just want to believe me, that would be awesome!), so who else is an option?
Caex and Xyre have effectively CC'd each other. Part of me just wants to lynch Caex since I do still think he's scum... but he's not roleblockable. If he survives the night he's either scum or town with a result. Handing the mafia our cop as today's lynch is not something I'm willing to risk when they'll have to kill him if he's town. Xyre can wait until we know Caex's alignment. Since I believe Caex to be scum, for the moment I believe Xyre is town. Unless we have two info roles. That will hopefully become apparent as the game moves forward.
Then there are Cyouni and zindabad as two that I would be up for supporting. It's somewhat lazier in zindabad's case, but it's better than nolynch and his last couple posts have rubbed me the wrong way. Cyouni I actually do have a feeling is scum (Xyre's case was pretty good), so that would be my preference of the two.
Xyre asked me a while back to tell him why I thought his case was bad. I asked for bullet points, and he gave them.
Yeah, right, that's what I was talking about. So when I say you're making irrational attacks, I mean irrational from his point of view. He sees himself as town being attacked for irrational reasons. That irrationality is the main reason he thinks you're scum, so the more you ease up the more he questions his read. I'm not saying this proves he's town, only that I can see the town mindset there. I can see myself having a similar reaction, and it's apparently prevalent enough to get its own acronym around here.
My only comment would be that you may be right, but that's always the case. Every scum move in this game is calculated. A lot of town moves are too. Debating whether or not something is calculated will lead us nowhere. All I can really say is that reading through his posts I never got the feeling that he had an underlying motivation. They are calculated (or at least carefully arranged)... but does that make them scummy?
"That last step" refers to that last leap of logic from retroactive to scummy. Of course his reasoning is retroactive. He's explaining himself after the fact. But I don't think that necessarily makes him scum.
I had to check back on DYH's posts. So you're up for lynching zindabad based 100% on meta?
That's not happening.
The meta checks out. I don't think the votes will, but it's a good lynch.
Unvote, vote zindabad
You are so scum. You had plenty of time to convince the town to lynch me and you decided to coast to the end instead, so you don't have the right to complain about me not being lynched. You also decided not to respond to my case due to "more important discussions", but if you actually thought I was scum then that would have been the most important discussion to have.
I'm vote hopping because a lynch is better than nothing and we don't have the luxury of time for fence sitting and screwing around. I also don't see a dichotomy between Xyre and Caex since I think Caex is lying. Xyre could very well be telling the truth about his claim and still be scum.
Yes, vote zindabad or we'll lynch you instead.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.