have had a strong town read on EP all game, and, again, I haven't like AE's posts this game. While AE isn't at the top of my list, people that are at the top of my list are likely to get lynched anyway. So I redirected from EP -> AE, so that if scum tried to NK someone (I think) strongly town, he would be protected. I don't know if the ability actually did anything, although it did resolve.
@EP: No, I'm not glossing it over. I understand exactly what DM is talking about, and believe that he has exactly nailed what was going through your head at the time. When you are scum, and someone correctly identifies you as scum, it is frustrating. When you perceive their reasoning as terrible, but know that they are 'on to you' anyway it is infuriating. This is definitely something that you appear to be guilty of here. I mean like..you start out your post putting your vote on Voxx, but ultimately it just comes down to OMGUS. This is simply not the type of behavior I would expect from you as town.
Then what do you think about Vox's opinions flipping on SS after SS and Cyouni?
I'm not sure why you're trying to make a big deal out of Voxx changing his mind about Cyouni. Especially when he provided a specific reason(Cyouni's interactions with SF/Foxlet) for doing so.
I do agree that he should explain his statement(s) about SS.
But that doesn't get you off of the hook. As I've said, your points against Voxx reek of OMGUS. And the fact that you're voting him based off of something so paltry, while at the same time being so mad at him for voting you based on a huge amount of relevant evidence..makes you look even worse. I went back and re-read your response to Voxx, and some of it is so, so scummy. Like how you try to brush aside your action(s) toward IB and then SS. I agree with Voxx' assessment that you just nudged the IB wagon, while not actually voting him(because you didn't need to get your hands dirty). Your explanation of this actually makes you look WORSE.
What are you talking about? I posted twice during the time IB went from no votes to L-2, and expressed that he was not scummy enough to vote. How is that keeping my hands from being dirty?
And what do you mean Vox explained his reasons? He went from Cyouni is looking so good the miller should not be an automatic vig (which he stated just about every post Day 1) to saying he was scum because SF did the same thing! How is that at all justified to you?
@Voxx: The fact that I am now voting EP should indicate my tacit acceptance of the points that you made regarding him. I'm not going to bother acknowledging his obvious cheap shot at the end. Also, realize that his rationale behind dumb nonsense like 'Cyan you should vote for me!' is 'oh I just wanted to see how he would react'. The only reaction he was EVER going to get is the exact one that he got.
@Void: You don't quite seem to get how a busdriver works. When you are a bus-driver, you 'move' all abilities that would target one person and make them target another person instead. SS provided the NK example as just that..an example. SS moved all abilities targeting EP(like mine) to AE instead. If someone HAD tried to NK EP, that NK attempt would have ended up targeting AE instead. This is pro-town thought on SS's part, albeit short-sighted(EP was pretty likely to have been Doc protected yesterday).
@Void: You don't quite seem to get how a busdriver works. When you are a bus-driver, you 'move' all abilities that would target one person and make them target another person instead. SS provided the NK example as just that..an example. SS moved all abilities targeting EP(like mine) to AE instead. If someone HAD tried to NK EP, that NK attempt would have ended up targeting AE instead. This is pro-town thought on SS's part, albeit short-sighted(EP was pretty likely to have been Doc protected yesterday).
I found where I am having the issue.
The first redirector/bus driver I saw on this site did what I am explaining.
According to MafiaWiki: The ability that you (Cyan) have described is the more common. The ability I have described is the more rare.
Redirector and Bus Driver are not the same role. They are, effectively, opposite sides of the same coin. A Redirector targets a person and makes that person target someone else. A Bus driver targets a person and makes abilities that would target that person target someone else.
Of course something is going to turn up. Any time sufficient pressure is applied in this game, SOMETHING will turn up. The question is whether it's what we're looking for or not. Stop trying to twist what I'm saying and make it look sinister. It's reflecting poorly on you.
I'll reiterate that I knew in my gut that there were scum on Manders' wagon. Relevant bit:
I pointed this out before TIM started the wagon on Shark!. I would have been perfectly fine pursuing any of these options, however since the wagon started on Shark, that's where events ended up. I don't know where you're seeing scum in this, but I will say this: Stop tunnel-visioning me. I don't know what I did that I offend you so much by existing, but screw off. I've done everything I can to prove myself, which maybe isn't the best way to go about things for the future, but that's where I'm at now. Maybe you should focus on actually hunting scum for once rather than trying to make me into one.
Except we are in a game with Vanilla roles. Therefore it’s an “if something turns up” compared to “what turns up.”
How can you even call tunnel vision on me? You were not my only focus on Day 1. Day 2 has just started and I am looking back at you because of interactions with a dead scum member. Try again if I continue to attack you and no one else.
You haven’t done anything to offend me until this post. Don’t ever tell me to screw off. All you have accomplished is showing that you cannot handle this game in a mature manner.
Oh, look. Silver is telling me to find “actual scum” just like Shark had stated earlier.
You do realize that I'm responsible for getting him to post his reads, right? Also RE@TIM: I think that his reads post is valid and contains interesting information. At that point in his wagon, I don't think that Shark was far enough along to actually be worried...given the fluidity of the wagons so far in this game. He probably expected that he could get off the hook. Obviously there's no way to know for sure, but I don't think he had yet entered pure WIFOM territory. That's just me, though.
And what does you being responsible for those posts mean that you are town?
Why are you talking about TIM when we are discussing your play? I don’t care about Shark anymore this game unless is has to do with his interactions. What is in the past will remain in the past. Talking about it is WIFOM unless you are stating the actual facts of what happened.
Anyone else confused by why Kpaca was nightkilled? I can't imagine he was vigged with a miller and a survivor...but Kpaca doesn't really make sense to NK from a mafia perspective either. Due to RL, he'd barely done anything this game. As time allows, I'll go back and look at Kpaca's posts....maybe scum were afraid of some line of reasoning he was adopting.
Now SS is trying to get attention away from him by talking about the NK on kpaca and why a Miller or Survivor was not shot. Pure WIFOM.
Redirector and Bus Driver are not the same role. They are, effectively, opposite sides of the same coin. A Redirector targets a person and makes that person target someone else. A Bus driver targets a person and makes abilities that would target that person target someone else.
I'm not sure how I feel about this bus driver thing. I don't find any of the players involved scummy offhand, but I'll have to read it more closely. I'm interested in looking at who said what when I called out Foxlet on lying.
I don't want him to die....yet. I also wouldn't be broken up about it if he did. Put it this way:
-) Odds of me actually successfully guessing the NK are really low. I acknowledge that.
-) Odds that EP would be targeted with something given his (seemingly) town play D1 were pretty high. I won't pretend to be versed enough to know all of the possibilities, but even if they didn't NK him, scum would probably try to do something to him.
-) I haven't liked AE all game, and I continue to dislike him. He's not at the top of my scum list, but he's on it. I'm not sure, certainly, because most of his posts have been very short to date, so I don't have a lot to go on.
-) I didn't want to target one of the people near the top of my scum list, because if by some miracle I did guess the NK AND killed a mafiate with it, then that would actually give us less information to work with because there wouldn't be a wagon to dissect. I plan on investigating those people and getting some good discourse going...while another mafia kill would certainly be good, I feel like the information would be more useful at this stage of the game.
-) As a result, AE was an acceptable target in my mind. He's on my list but not one of the people I'm going to be looking into immediately. There's a decent chance of him being mafia, but due to the lack of much content, there isn't a lot of information to be gained from him anyway if he ended up mafia. If I guessed the NK correctly and AE flipped town, which is the worst-case scenario, the town would keep a more contributing player...again, assuming my read on EP is correct.
Does that explain things well enough / make sense? I don't know how much more detailed I can really get at this point =/
-------
I will admit that I find the current situation EP is embroiled in...troubling. Mostly because he seemed perfectly fine all of Day 1, then got attacked out of the blue when Dsy 2 started and overreacted out of nowhere. His response to Voxx's post was not at all what I expected from him, and that worries me.
EP: can you explain why you went to such lengths to attempt to discredit Voxx's post? It honestly doesn't make sense to me why you'd put in that much effort when there wasn't even a wagon on you.
@Voxx: The fact that I am now voting EP should indicate my tacit acceptance of the points that you made regarding him. I'm not going to bother acknowledging his obvious cheap shot at the end. Also, realize that his rationale behind dumb nonsense like 'Cyan you should vote for me!' is 'oh I just wanted to see how he would react'. The only reaction he was EVER going to get is the exact one that he got.
@Void: You don't quite seem to get how a busdriver works. When you are a bus-driver, you 'move' all abilities that would target one person and make them target another person instead. SS provided the NK example as just that..an example. SS moved all abilities targeting EP(like mine) to AE instead. If someone HAD tried to NK EP, that NK attempt would have ended up targeting AE instead. This is pro-town thought on SS's part, albeit short-sighted(EP was pretty likely to have been Doc protected yesterday).
That's a really good point, and something I need to keep in mind for the future. After the game is over, would you mind giving me a few tips on this role, in case I get it again? Picking targets is a little more complicated that I thought it would be at first, because there's so many other roles to keep in mind...
Also, to clear up this mess with my ability: I read my PM again, and I don't want to quote it entirely because I've seen that being a big no-no. But my role is definitely CALLED a Redirector, but the ABILITY is actually that of a Bus-driver. I guess that when I claimed I probably should have said what it actually is, instead of paraphrasing my PM. But that's what my PM says.
I have had a strong town read on EP all game, and, again, I haven't like AE's posts this game. While AE isn't at the top of my list, people that are at the top of my list are likely to get lynched anyway. So I redirected from EP -> AE, so that if scum tried to NK someone (I think) strongly town, he would be protected. I don't know if the ability actually did anything, although it did resolve.
-) Odds that EP would be targeted with something given his (seemingly) town play D1 were pretty high. I won't pretend to be versed enough to know all of the possibilities, but even if they didn't NK him, scum would probably try to do something to him.
You went from having a strong town read to seemingly believing EP to be town. Why?
You went from having a strong town read to seemingly believing EP to be town. Why?
Quote from SilverSihhe, 723 »
I will admit that I find the current situation EP is embroiled in...troubling. Mostly because he seemed perfectly fine all of Day 1, then got attacked out of the blue when Dsy 2 started and overreacted out of nowhere. His response to Voxx's post was not at all what I expected from him, and that worries me.
I liked him a lot in Day 1. I don't like him much at all Day 2. At the moment I'm still leaning town on him, but the events so far toDay have me really questioning myself.
"A townie wouldn't get annoyed at scum because they're just doing their job"? Really?
Not in the situation and manner that you got annoyed, yes really. Nice attempt at a blanket discredit though.
To say I was responding emotionally and provided a structured, well evidenced response and case - at the very least I would have already made a cathartic document and felt better and more reasonable by the time I would submit it and not submitted it.
I'm a bit confused as to what exactly you're trying to say here.
Are you trying to say that it makes no sense for you to post emotionally as scum? If so, then... no. You could have left the emotion in there because you didn't realize it was scummy (the same as every other scum-tell). More often than not, showing emotion is actually a town tell -- just not in this case. I often look for scum in the people being overly cool/unemotional as well (though it depends on the person).
If that's not what you're saying, then clarify?
----
Generally, there isn't too much I can get out of day 1 because I think E_P was playing well. Most of my points I'm having a hard time explaining. That said:
IB's post was not such a great "gotcha" as people are treating it, but his response is bizarre. IB clearly has no idea what he's actually being accused of (as evidenced by the posts following people starting to vote for him), so to me he's actually guilty of mindlessly pressing forward in the game. There's really two things that could have happened: pushing whatever came across his lap, or simply didn't realize what he did was wrong in any fashion.
With the way the wagon sprung up it will be harder to get a read on what did happen, but I have to lean towards the first option based on the multiple attempts to point out "gotcha" posts with Foxlet and Reya. Very eager.
Ugh, I hate basing a wagon on something like this because it'll be impossible to get a better read than what's available right this second which is not great and the case is only supported by a slip. Frustrating.
Combined with the suspicion on Silver below, this is exactly the sort of stance I'd take if I were scum, and thought that jumping on the IB wagon was too dangerous at the moment. Present mixed feelings, but leave a clear door to jump on later. If people decide to jump on Silver, that works, but don't derail the IB wagon by voting him now; E_P only decides to vote Silver after the IB wagon has stalled out.
SilverSihhe is the one I'm most concerned about though. The pairing of players, the seemingly random defense of players coming under fire, the searching for a wagon to join but only dipping a toe in the pool... none of it points to good things.
This paragraph bothers me. The actual content is fine, but it's very...passive. It's just noting the "facts" rather than showing genuine interest. He's noting what his stance is without taking an active role. It's the kind of post I'd make when if I'd sat down trying to think of what position to take for a while, rather than what I'd write when having a gut reaction of "hey, this dude is scummy." As mentioned above, the lack of vote is also odd and not what I'd expect of a town E_P.
I'm not going to spend a ton of effort on this, because it's a pretty weak point and one I'm having a hard time explaining, but this joke/observation here bothers me. For context, it's a reference to Cyan v. Manders Round 142. Again, it's a very passive sort of observation. My issue is actually pretty similar to what I was saying about Foxlet at the beginning of the game. If he's town, he should be somewhat interested in the battle, and I wouldn't expect him to think of such a joke.
-----
The above is what I initially noticed in my reread; I'm having a harder time analyzing his stuff towards the end of the day because I was absent at the time and my memory of what was going on at the time is fuzzier. I'll probably take another look at when my brain is less burned out and see if there's anything there.
On Silver:
Yeah, I'm pretty sure he's town now. His explanation that he was trying to look town early on explains a fair bit of what originally bothered me, and some of his later posts (especially his analysis of Manders's wagon) were ridiculously townie. I can go back and find more specific examples if it becomes necessary or someone really wants me to.
I don't want him to die....yet. I also wouldn't be broken up about it if he did. Put it this way:
-) Odds of me actually successfully guessing the NK are really low. I acknowledge that.
-) Odds that EP would be targeted with something given his (seemingly) town play D1 were pretty high. I won't pretend to be versed enough to know all of the possibilities, but even if they didn't NK him, scum would probably try to do something to him.
-) I haven't liked AE all game, and I continue to dislike him. He's not at the top of my scum list, but he's on it. I'm not sure, certainly, because most of his posts have been very short to date, so I don't have a lot to go on.
-) I didn't want to target one of the people near the top of my scum list, because if by some miracle I did guess the NK AND killed a mafiate with it, then that would actually give us less information to work with because there wouldn't be a wagon to dissect. I plan on investigating those people and getting some good discourse going...while another mafia kill would certainly be good, I feel like the information would be more useful at this stage of the game.
-) As a result, AE was an acceptable target in my mind. He's on my list but not one of the people I'm going to be looking into immediately. There's a decent chance of him being mafia, but due to the lack of much content, there isn't a lot of information to be gained from him anyway if he ended up mafia. If I guessed the NK correctly and AE flipped town, which is the worst-case scenario, the town would keep a more contributing player...again, assuming my read on EP is correct.
I'm curious, why AE over Cyouni or Ahlyis? Just by the reasoning you give above, one of those two seems like a better target.
That's a really good point, and something I need to keep in mind for the future. After the game is over, would you mind giving me a few tips on this role, in case I get it again? Picking targets is a little more complicated that I thought it would be at first, because there's so many other roles to keep in mind...
Actually, I don't really agree with Cyan there. Given that the set-up has a Bus Driver (which is basically like a doctor that if he successfully protects he gets a free vig shot), I wouldn't take it as red that we even have a full doctor. Especially with IB's bulletproof claim.
I'm curious, why AE over Cyouni or Ahlyis? Just by the reasoning you give above, one of those two seems like a better target.
I thought about it, but assuming we had a vig, it seemed like a waste since I had a 50/50 shot of targeting someone that's going to die anyway. Also, I'm not sure I agree philosophically with killing a claimed survivor who is townsiding, or denying Cyouni the chance to meaningfully contribute before his inevitable downfall (assuming of course that both claims are accurate, which I currently believe). That might well be a naive position, I admit.
About the Voxx vs. EP thing, I disagreed with the majority of Voxx's reads when I read his case, but since the overreaction of EP and the defend-for-EP defense that Cyouni gave, I believe he may be on to something. I've been trying to rationalize the EP post in a townie mindset, since so many people have already given it a scum-mindset analysis. I can see his overreaction in a town mindset, but not only is that a slim possibility, it's also not how EP plays. The town mindset I came up with involves EP being cocky, and he's not.
Furthermore, I find myself agreeing with DancingMad's tone analysis.
EP's leaning scum, along with Cyouni. Manders still has the highest likelihood of being scum though.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Who was that masked man anyway?
MTGSalvation: Now with more Drama than Season 5 of Supernatural!
Scum? I don't know yet. I'm curious what he thinks because I'm town and a few others placed me there early on and he has a completly different mindset regarding me.
After rereading EP's post, it doesn't feel like the righteous indignation is faked. I can't see the "people are voting me because of terrible reasons" attitude in subsequent posts, either, so I'm not willing to consider EP as a lynch based on current posts.
Not expecting a response from infectiousbaloth on his waffling re:Foxlet.
After rereading EP's post, it doesn't feel like the righteous indignation is faked. I can't see the "people are voting me because of terrible reasons" attitude in subsequent posts, either, so I'm not willing to consider EP as a lynch based on current posts.
Not expecting a response from infectiousbaloth on his waffling re:Foxlet.
As has been stated, EP's indignance there looks much more like 'I'm scum and I know it and I can't believe someone is making this crappy case against me' than anything else. Especially compared to how EP usually acts as town.
Scum? I don't know yet. I'm curious what he thinks because I'm town and a few others placed me there early on and he has a completly different mindset regarding me.
Lying about what?
Why did you feel the need to include 'I'm town' in this post?
And if you are town, you fall into one of a few camps. Either you think that SS is lying about his role(you in particular should know definitively whether or not this is true), which by default makes him scum. Or you think that he is telling the truth about having redirected abilities targeting EP to make them target you instead. Or you think he is town and believe him entirely.
Why did you feel the need to include 'I'm town' in this post?
Whats the problem with that? Do you have an issue with the statement?
And if you are town, you fall into one of a few camps. Either you think that SS is lying about his role(you in particular should know definitively whether or not this is true), which by default makes him scum. Or you think that he is telling the truth about having redirected abilities targeting EP to make them target you instead. Or you think he is town and believe him entirely.
So..which is it?
Can I have alot more votes on Cyan please? Do you see what he's doing? He's trying really hard.
I don't know what to think of him at this point which is why I asked him why I'm scummy when others did not. I also have no reason at the moment to not believe his claim.
Yes, I have an issue with people who try to casually slip references to themselves as town into their posts. That is generally not town behavior.
Can I have alot more votes on Cyan please? Do you see what he's doing? He's trying really hard.
What exactly am I doing? Trying to figure out what your mindset is? OH NO BETTER VOTE ME.
I don't know what to think of him at this point which is why I asked him why I'm scummy when others did not. I also have no reason at the moment to not believe his claim.
Wow. Just wow. Now your using a net huh? Not walking into that one. Sorry.
So what went wrong for you guys last night? Did SS really screw with your plans that bad?
You are doing a fascinating job of not actually answering questions, and instead just making random pointless statements. Random pointless statements that make zero sense. I don't need to fish you, AE. I've been assuming that you are untargetable since I figured out that SS redirected my ability to you and then it 'failed'.
Alternatively, feel free to back up these various 'fishing' accusations. Or sit there and be quiet while I lynch scum-EP.
bus-driver, you 'move' all abilities that would target one person and make them target another person instead. SS provided the NK example as just that..an example. SS moved all abilities targeting EP(like mine) to AE instead. If someone HAD tried to NK EP, that NK attempt would have ended up targeting AE instead. This is pro-town thought on SS's part, albeit short-sighted(EP was pretty likely to have been Doc protected yesterday).
Bus Driver in the most classical sense swaps the two players entirely (anything targeting A targets B and vice versa). What g_d did is simply the ambiguous option C that is also called redirector, which I've seen a few times before. Instead of redirect A to B it redirects from A to B. Either way void should realize he's being dumb.
EP: can you explain why you went to such lengths to attempt to discredit Voxx's post? It honestly doesn't make sense to me why you'd put in that much effort when there wasn't even a wagon on you.
The only reason I don't post lengthy cases anymore is because I don't have the free time I used to. It was a holiday and my wife was stuck in Germany because of Lufthansa, so I had the time to make a long detailed response and case against Vox. I expected to get some OMGUS flak, but my case speaks for itself.
Not in the situation and manner that you got annoyed, yes really. Nice attempt at a blanket discredit though.
I'm a bit confused as to what exactly you're trying to say here.
Are you trying to say that it makes no sense for you to post emotionally as scum? If so, then... no. You could have left the emotion in there because you didn't realize it was scummy (the same as every other scum-tell). More often than not, showing emotion is actually a town tell -- just not in this case. I often look for scum in the people being overly cool/unemotional as well (though it depends on the person).
If that's not what you're saying, then clarify?
I think you need to clarify something as well because what you said is that a townie would not get annoyed at scum because the scum is doing their job.
As for clarifying my point, it's pretty simple: your logic is relying on me just being annoyed at Vox for nailing me for wrong reasons, but that doesn't make sense to me when I obviously took a long ****ing time to post what I did. I opened a word file, typed my thoughts, structured them, and pointed out the inherent hypocrisy and bias in what Vox said. Going against your theory of emotional posting is the case of someone writing a letter expressing their frustrations, maybe even having a specific target, to relieve their emotion in order to think clearly and then make a better decision instead of an impulsive one. That level of catharsis works against your opinion of my post, and simply discrediting Vox's case was not my goal; his case (on the surface) is simply lazy.
Also, it's not a blanket discredit if you have a lengthier response to another part of the same post.
Combined with the suspicion on Silver below, this is exactly the sort of stance I'd take if I were scum, and thought that jumping on the IB wagon was too dangerous at the moment. Present mixed feelings, but leave a clear door to jump on later. If people decide to jump on Silver, that works, but don't derail the IB wagon by voting him now; E_P only decides to vote Silver after the IB wagon has stalled out.
This paragraph bothers me. The actual content is fine, but it's very...passive. It's just noting the "facts" rather than showing genuine interest. He's noting what his stance is without taking an active role. It's the kind of post I'd make when if I'd sat down trying to think of what position to take for a while, rather than what I'd write when having a gut reaction of "hey, this dude is scummy." As mentioned above, the lack of vote is also odd and not what I'd expect of a town E_P.
This has been covered already. I am saying I'm not for a IB lynch because the evidence it's based on is bad and IB is just eager. I'm not sure how that's making sure to leave room in later. Especially bringing up my own target who I provided a case for the next day. If you are going to attack me for not voting, attack me for it there where it looks much worse in a reread.
I'm not going to spend a ton of effort on this, because it's a pretty weak point and one I'm having a hard time explaining, but this joke/observation here bothers me. For context, it's a reference to Cyan v. Manders Round 142. Again, it's a very passive sort of observation. My issue is actually pretty similar to what I was saying about Foxlet at the beginning of the game. If he's town, he should be somewhat interested in the battle, and I wouldn't expect him to think of such a joke.
TWO posts? I wasn't expecting "a couple things bothered me" so literal, and this one sucks anyways. Why on Earth would I not try and cut the MH vs. Cyan argument at the knees every time I see it? What could possibly be gained from the two of them bickering for a hundred posts and voting each other for (as you said) the 142nd time?
You really think anyone would look at that and think "I should let those two go at it, there's probably good analysis there!"
Hey guys, just letting you know I'm still alive, but I managed to ko my laptop screen last night.
I'm going to be keeping up, but don't expect anything substantial, as typing on a touchscreen is hell.
V/LA until I replace my computer, hopefully monday.
Will make a post from work tomorrow.
How is this even supposed to be a response to the question I asked?
Nice catch. I didn't even notice that.
Unvote Vote: infectiousbaloth
This is where Manders jumps on my wagon for agreeing with Ahlyis and then voting for him later on. Manders is the third vote on my wagon, after Cyouni and AE, two people with reasonably strong town cred. This is basically just a /barn vote of AE, but Manders gets much more aggressive with my wagon later.
What about the fact that she already admitted that she may have seen it somewhere, but couldn't remember? Hmm?
That doesn't make it better since she had already been caught in a lie. Why are you defending Foxlet so much? It would make a lot of sense for you to put your neck out, as a strong player, for your scumbuddy.
These are two quotes (a double post) merged together, just so we all know. Ahlyis wants to vote for me, and Manders continues to put the pressure on my wagon.
You don't have a lot of experience with logical people, do you?
Apparently you do, or you would vote for him. There are 18 people in this game. IB has 3 votes. It's 10 to lynch. No reason for you to NOT vote if you think he's scum.
Right, only three votes, there's no way I could be run up to claim range quickly by using that logic.
No mention of Foxlet. No reason behind his daychat speculation. He's just providing stuff so people will think it's a typical "Ah, damn, you got me. I'll just provide what I can while I can do it" town claim.
I'm not convinced to unvote.
Why would I mention Foxlet in a defense of myself? Your'e right, it was me just providing what I can while I can, and I did provide, and I continue to provide.
Secondly, you admit that scum could/would false-claim bulletproof, but still contend that he's likely town because of his claim? What?!
Saying it doesn't convince anyone. WHY, CYAN?!
When will you learn that ridiculously bad does not necessarily mean scummy?
Have you not gone after me (when I was town) enough times to learn that, yet?
and yet, Foxlet WAS scum! But you continue to tie yourself to her!
Cyan, don't act like you never forget anything you've been told. I'll call you out on it. I can absolutely see her dismissing learned information as soon as she learned it because it was not relevant. ****, I've done the same thing time and time again. It's not a tell, and anyone that thinks it is, I question their intellectual fortitude.
You said this about Foxlet (WHO IS A GIRL, DAMN YOU. REMEMBER IT!!!):
In response to the bolded, I asked:
Because THAT IS WHAT HER POST WAS. Long, yes, but she was answering the pending question many players had.
This. I like AE for town.
Not in the least, as it CANNOT BE PROVEN.
It could do that, though it would not be definitely true. It would not, however, prove he is town, like you seem to think it would.
Why do you care?
A number of things that are difficult to analyze here, but the last statement really stands out to me. Voxx expresses concern at the speed my wagon was run up, Ahlyis asks Voxx to expound on that concern, and it seems like Manders is trying to dissuade people from questioning why I was run up so quickly.
You saying so doesn't make it true. It makes perfect sense.
And everyone who's every played Mafia with you has always made perfect sense?
Oh, man, good to see that some things never change.
Cyan...you ALWAYS think I'm scum. How many times have you been right about it?
The answer is 3 out of the 9 games we've played in together, and that's being generous because I don't think he thought I was scum in Joss Whedon, but we'll assume he did. What this means is, yes, he is right every time I'm scum...but only because HE ALWAYS THINKS I'M SCUM.
Here's a good one. After Cyan casts a vote on MH, she handwaves the whole thing as Cyan ALWAYS thinking she's scum. Then, she proceeds to attempt to invalidate his case by saying that he's been wrong about her being scum before. It's all an attack on Cyan's credibility and it does nothing to defend her against the points Cyan raises.
This doesn't answer why you care, though. If he's just going to sling mud and make no case, why do you care?
I don't.
You knew it wouldn't take long, but no, it's not starting again. I'm not getting into a pissing match with Cyan when I'm unsure of his alignment.
No because I don't even remember what this was over anymore. You must have pinged something, but you're not anymore, so forget it.
No watching me in the shower, Void!
You have a lot of anger.
Furthermore, Azrael didn't say "never" and Cyan is right. Players have been warned or infracted for double and triple-posting in-game.
What does the level of the game have to do with his alignment?
Reasons for ANYTHING you're thinking/feeling would be loverly.
Dude, chill out. This
is nothing more than him trying to get a feel for your mindset. It is not talking down to you or being condescending.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees it.
This. Why, especially on Day 1, would you want to focus on only one person, IB?
I never saw this before. The town was in disarray at this point, we had an obvious scumspect (SS) and we were unfocused. Unfocused town tends to mislynch.
I was NOT acting scummy. People called me out for bull****.
Like this?
This explanation does nothing for me.
First of all, the question you asked is nowhere near the league of the question Void asked you.
Secondly, yes, kpaca would answer it because he is all out of ****s to give.
Why?
Why?
Why?
Why?
Why?
Why? (jk, don't answer that)
Why?
Why did you have her as leaning scum?
Fair.
So Cyan's leaning scum...
Players replace out under pressure all the time.
Why?
Why?
Mkay
Why does Cyan's reactions reflect on my alignment?
What spat with Ahylis?
What does my involvement with the Foxlet/Miller issue have to do with anything?
Not really, no.
That sounds pretty awesome.
The rest of the post is asking for reasons for SS's T/S list. The Foxlet issue has to do with your alignment because you defended her pretty hard all game, contributing very little other than a defense.
No, I do not. I've already said that his question was obviously asked in an attempt to get a window into your mindset.
Read my posts if you're going to engage me, ok?
And what about when I flip town? What will you do then?
And before kpaca comes back with something along the lines of "shrug and move on," I don't mean about me. What will you do regarding those who've interacted with me?
@Manders: What did you intend to get from this question?
I'm fairly certain you are incorrect, because I recall saying I think Cyan and AE are likely town. As for opinions on scumminess, I've voted for those I find scummy. (IB, SS.) I don't really have a read on anyone else.
At almost 400 pages in, Manders has a read on four players. Additionally, despite defending Foxlet tooth and nail, she makes no mention of Foxlet here.
Well, Cyan's said I'm scum. GT has expressed concern, but withheld his vote a few times. I believe some have said I seem town. Iono, re-read the game when I'm dead and see for yourself.
Oh, Jobie said he thinks I'm town. I remember cause he said me and Cyan going at it, as per normal, would be a town-on-town fight that should be ignored until later.
Here, Manders puts on the defeatist mask, with exactly one vote on her and Cyan's suspicion of her. At this point, Cyan is not even voting Manders.
Oh, and as for the lurking accusation GT so elegantly slung my way, let me just clarify something.
I work 6-2:30 Friday-Tuesday. Because of a ****ty RL situation, the earliest I go to bed on most days is 10:30, more like 11:00 or later. I wake up at 4. So, during the week, I am waaaaaaaaaaaaay to exhausted to deal with Mafia. I'll TRY to force myself to post more during my work week from here on out, but that's what I meant the other day by "depending on how I feel." I'm always tired lately.
RL or no, this reminds me a lot of Basic #49, where RL prevented you from providing any content... and you were scum.
This is a reaally good one. She calls kpaca out on "When you flip", which, if we look back to the post above, Manders says:
"And what about when I flip town? What will you do then?"
So the word 'when' was YOUR word. Way to misrep kpaca.
Sorry for triple posting, but Manders had a post before that last one in my PBPA, a vote for kpaca. Both posts will be in part 2 of my case, which I am typing up now. Sorry for the confusion and triple post. <3
"Either" is not a key word in that sentence at all. How is it?
How could I be trying to get Cyan in my corner in the least? Seriously, explain that, because this looks like a poor attempt to sow suspicion where there is none.
How is it opportunistic to vote a veteran player that no one else is even remotely looking at?
Desperate for what?
Do you deny that it shows a scum mindset?
He won't answer that because he can't answer that. Cyan has always just decided that my posts (and not just mine, everyone's) mean something, then says what they mean, but hardly ever explains it. I've pointed out numerous examples of him doing this in this game.
Why are you "pressuring me" yet not doing a damn thing to get a read on me? You didn't ask me any questions, you just made a statement then voted. What are you hoping to get out of me with your "pressure"?
I don't believe that.
So? Does that make it any less valid for me?
I'd expect nothing less.
Um, I'm pretty sure I'm saying you weren't condescending him there.
Why the :facepalm:?
Why are you guiding the vig?
So you admit you have no in-game reason to suspect me?
Again, discrediting Cyan. As we can see, there is plenty of in-game reason to suspect you.
You have a very low percentage chance of doing anything relevant against the scum with your ability, so if you're town, no, it's not a guarantee you'll be NKd.
Deflected from what?
This is a spot on very good point.
At this point, I'm good with lynching any of Ahlyis, Silver Sihhe, or kpaca.
I'm beginning to suspect AE.
Cyan still reads as town, yet wrong.
Everyone else is just there.
So Ahlyis, SS, and kpaca are scummy... what happened to me?
Beginning to suspect AE.
Cyan is town. Okay.
Whatever you guys decide to do, we need to lynch someone who's already claimed. There's been enough information spewed in this Day.
Unvote Vote SilverSihhe
Just PLEASE don't ignore kpaca. I'm pleasantly convinced that he's scum.
After spewing information into the thread with only 3 votes on her, she tells us to lynch one of the following:
InfectiousBaloth - Town Bulletproof: I know I'm town.
Ahlyis - Neutral Survivor: a believable claim to be certain.
Cyouni - Town Miller: Again, believable, and likely to be town.
SilverSihhe - Town Redirector: a player I consider to be town at this point
MandersHex - Town Vanilla: About as big a loss as a survivor, and fairly scummy.
This looks to me like an act of desperation, because it is.
If you mean kpaca, I'd put no weight on that stance as there's no way kpaca actually believes he'll be lynched, meaning his vote is rather pointless at this time, which is definitely something scum would be interested in doing rather than lynch their buddy.
@Manders: can you explain this post? I'm not sure I understand your meaning here.
What the **** are you talking about? Blank how? I, literally, included everything I possibly could have.
I'm obviously trying to help the town by killing this stupid distraction one way or another. How on Earth am I depriving the town of a ton of information?
Cyan answers this quite eloquently, but to wit: you deprive the town of your wagon.
People are still switching their vote to me, so no, it didn't.
To get this **** going one way or another. My wagon was creeping along and it is distracting the game from catching scum. It needs to end, asap, whether I'm dead or alive at the end of it.
You had three votes on you. Three. The Silver wagon was carrying right along, but it was a bad wagon. If we end up outing several townies but lynching scum, isn't that good?
It's damn annoying to watch a stupid wagon creep along and constantly distract the game, too.
When I'm dead, AE, Ahlyis, IB, SS, and kpaca (in no particular order) need to be looked at.
Unvote Vote: MandersHex
Peace out
and here's the self-vote. Manders, rather than replacing out, or fighting back (see: Cyan's Impafia) just implodes under very little pressure. Here, Ahlyis, SS, and kpaca are scum, AE is scum now, and I need to be looked at. Didn't I get run up already?
I've explained both of these (granted, one of them just now), but I'll do it again.
Claim: to either get me lynched or get people to move on as all the discussion going on about me (which just keeps continuing) is distracting the game.
Self-vote: to push the wagon along, trying to get it over sooner.
Why do you want it over with sooner? If you are town, and not scum, you would want the wagon to build slowly so we could analyze it after you are dead. If you were town, you wouldn't want to have the town start the game off with at least two dead players. (The day 1 lynch and then a night kill)
Because it's based largely on Cyan saying I'm scum and not much else. He's given little to no reasons.
Because people actually provided reasons on those wagons.
But you claimed at L-7. AE didn't provide much in terms of reasoning, and Cyan's reasoning was reasonably weak. If the wagon kept going without reasons, that would be a good time to start analyzing, but instead, you created a bigger distraction.
Yes, it is a League game, and that is part of the reason I don't want to replace out, too. Would YOU want to start out with negative points? Neither would I.
And don't be mistaken: I would love to continue playing this game and catching scum. I, simply, do not see that happening, so I'm trying to get this atrocity of a Day 1 over with as soon as possible.
With the impending deadline looming closer and closer, you guys should just lynch me. Seriously, only 5 more votes are needed.
As for my scum picks, TIM's right that Reya seems too sure of my alignment. Shark to a lesser extent with only his probing giving me doubts. He COULD have legitimately decided he thinks I'm town based on my responses.
This reads like distancing to me re: SharkFoxigan. You seemed to think Foxlet was townie enough to stick your neck out, but Shark might be scum?
A Redirecter targets player A and redirects to Player B.
What SS has described is that he targeted EP to prevent ANOTHER ability from hitting him and then redirecting the ability HE DID NOT target to AE.
Something is fishy here.
I'll post tomorrow.
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SilverSilhe (1) - Void
infectiousbaloth (1) - Cyouni
Emo_Pinata (3) - Voxxicus, Cyan, Dancing Mad
MandersHex (3) - GrickyTimmick, Jobie, infectiousbaloth
Voxxicus (1) - Emo_Pinata
Cyan (1) - Archmage Eternal
Not Voting (6) - Ahlyis, Reya Cookiebringer, SilverSilhe, TheIceMan, Deathjoey, MandersHex
With 16 alive, it takes 9 to (no) lynch!
A reminder that the deadline, current votecount, and other rules/operations information are always available in the first and second posts.
Did I die and was not informed?
They hate us cause they ain't us.
I do agree that he should explain his statement(s) about SS.
But that doesn't get you off of the hook. As I've said, your points against Voxx reek of OMGUS. And the fact that you're voting him based off of something so paltry, while at the same time being so mad at him for voting you based on a huge amount of relevant evidence..makes you look even worse. I went back and re-read your response to Voxx, and some of it is so, so scummy. Like how you try to brush aside your action(s) toward IB and then SS. I agree with Voxx' assessment that you just nudged the IB wagon, while not actually voting him(because you didn't need to get your hands dirty). Your explanation of this actually makes you look WORSE.
And what do you mean Vox explained his reasons? He went from Cyouni is looking so good the miller should not be an automatic vig (which he stated just about every post Day 1) to saying he was scum because SF did the same thing! How is that at all justified to you?
Mind answering the things DeathJoey was so kind to point out that you didn't answer, in this post?
I will answer other things directed at me after this is resolved.
How is he targetting THREE different things?
He targeted EP to prevent the NK from ANOTHER player that he DID NOT target and get the NK to AE.
If SS targeted EP, then any ability EP used would be redirected to AE. Not an a outside ability.
Any abilities used on EP would have been reidrected to AE. Not any abilities used by EP.
Silver's logic for selecting those targets is fine, even if I disagree with his reads.
@Void: You don't quite seem to get how a busdriver works. When you are a bus-driver, you 'move' all abilities that would target one person and make them target another person instead. SS provided the NK example as just that..an example. SS moved all abilities targeting EP(like mine) to AE instead. If someone HAD tried to NK EP, that NK attempt would have ended up targeting AE instead. This is pro-town thought on SS's part, albeit short-sighted(EP was pretty likely to have been Doc protected yesterday).
I found where I am having the issue.
The first redirector/bus driver I saw on this site did what I am explaining.
According to MafiaWiki: The ability that you (Cyan) have described is the more common. The ability I have described is the more rare.
Oh, that’s perfect. You gave no reasoning on why you were voting Shark. You simply voted him and nothing else.
Except we are in a game with Vanilla roles. Therefore it’s an “if something turns up” compared to “what turns up.”
How can you even call tunnel vision on me? You were not my only focus on Day 1. Day 2 has just started and I am looking back at you because of interactions with a dead scum member. Try again if I continue to attack you and no one else.
You haven’t done anything to offend me until this post. Don’t ever tell me to screw off. All you have accomplished is showing that you cannot handle this game in a mature manner.
Oh, look. Silver is telling me to find “actual scum” just like Shark had stated earlier.
And what does you being responsible for those posts mean that you are town?
Why are you talking about TIM when we are discussing your play? I don’t care about Shark anymore this game unless is has to do with his interactions. What is in the past will remain in the past. Talking about it is WIFOM unless you are stating the actual facts of what happened.
Now SS is trying to get attention away from him by talking about the NK on kpaca and why a Miller or Survivor was not shot. Pure WIFOM.
Then we have a contradiction in Silver’s ability. He claimed redirector, but described a bus driver ability. I don’t see GD getting this mixed up.
Are you sure about that?
This here makes me believe that GD would not mess with a how a certain role performs in the game. That would seem like a bastard type of thing to do.
Please explain this comment in detail.
Cyan reviews a lot games on this site. He has personal experience with reviewing games with GD more than likely.
I would still like Cyan to answer this, but I feel this is why.
I don't want him to die....yet. I also wouldn't be broken up about it if he did. Put it this way:
-) Odds of me actually successfully guessing the NK are really low. I acknowledge that.
-) Odds that EP would be targeted with something given his (seemingly) town play D1 were pretty high. I won't pretend to be versed enough to know all of the possibilities, but even if they didn't NK him, scum would probably try to do something to him.
-) I haven't liked AE all game, and I continue to dislike him. He's not at the top of my scum list, but he's on it. I'm not sure, certainly, because most of his posts have been very short to date, so I don't have a lot to go on.
-) I didn't want to target one of the people near the top of my scum list, because if by some miracle I did guess the NK AND killed a mafiate with it, then that would actually give us less information to work with because there wouldn't be a wagon to dissect. I plan on investigating those people and getting some good discourse going...while another mafia kill would certainly be good, I feel like the information would be more useful at this stage of the game.
-) As a result, AE was an acceptable target in my mind. He's on my list but not one of the people I'm going to be looking into immediately. There's a decent chance of him being mafia, but due to the lack of much content, there isn't a lot of information to be gained from him anyway if he ended up mafia. If I guessed the NK correctly and AE flipped town, which is the worst-case scenario, the town would keep a more contributing player...again, assuming my read on EP is correct.
Does that explain things well enough / make sense? I don't know how much more detailed I can really get at this point =/
-------
I will admit that I find the current situation EP is embroiled in...troubling. Mostly because he seemed perfectly fine all of Day 1, then got attacked out of the blue when Dsy 2 started and overreacted out of nowhere. His response to Voxx's post was not at all what I expected from him, and that worries me.
EP: can you explain why you went to such lengths to attempt to discredit Voxx's post? It honestly doesn't make sense to me why you'd put in that much effort when there wasn't even a wagon on you.
That's a really good point, and something I need to keep in mind for the future. After the game is over, would you mind giving me a few tips on this role, in case I get it again? Picking targets is a little more complicated that I thought it would be at first, because there's so many other roles to keep in mind...
Also, to clear up this mess with my ability: I read my PM again, and I don't want to quote it entirely because I've seen that being a big no-no. But my role is definitely CALLED a Redirector, but the ABILITY is actually that of a Bus-driver. I guess that when I claimed I probably should have said what it actually is, instead of paraphrasing my PM. But that's what my PM says.
You went from having a strong town read to seemingly believing EP to be town. Why?
I liked him a lot in Day 1. I don't like him much at all Day 2. At the moment I'm still leaning town on him, but the events so far toDay have me really questioning myself.
On Emo_Pinata:
Not in the situation and manner that you got annoyed, yes really. Nice attempt at a blanket discredit though.
I'm a bit confused as to what exactly you're trying to say here.
Are you trying to say that it makes no sense for you to post emotionally as scum? If so, then... no. You could have left the emotion in there because you didn't realize it was scummy (the same as every other scum-tell). More often than not, showing emotion is actually a town tell -- just not in this case. I often look for scum in the people being overly cool/unemotional as well (though it depends on the person).
If that's not what you're saying, then clarify?
----
Generally, there isn't too much I can get out of day 1 because I think E_P was playing well. Most of my points I'm having a hard time explaining. That said:
Combined with the suspicion on Silver below, this is exactly the sort of stance I'd take if I were scum, and thought that jumping on the IB wagon was too dangerous at the moment. Present mixed feelings, but leave a clear door to jump on later. If people decide to jump on Silver, that works, but don't derail the IB wagon by voting him now; E_P only decides to vote Silver after the IB wagon has stalled out.
This paragraph bothers me. The actual content is fine, but it's very...passive. It's just noting the "facts" rather than showing genuine interest. He's noting what his stance is without taking an active role. It's the kind of post I'd make when if I'd sat down trying to think of what position to take for a while, rather than what I'd write when having a gut reaction of "hey, this dude is scummy." As mentioned above, the lack of vote is also odd and not what I'd expect of a town E_P.
I'm not going to spend a ton of effort on this, because it's a pretty weak point and one I'm having a hard time explaining, but this joke/observation here bothers me. For context, it's a reference to Cyan v. Manders Round 142. Again, it's a very passive sort of observation. My issue is actually pretty similar to what I was saying about Foxlet at the beginning of the game. If he's town, he should be somewhat interested in the battle, and I wouldn't expect him to think of such a joke.
-----
The above is what I initially noticed in my reread; I'm having a harder time analyzing his stuff towards the end of the day because I was absent at the time and my memory of what was going on at the time is fuzzier. I'll probably take another look at when my brain is less burned out and see if there's anything there.
On Silver:
Yeah, I'm pretty sure he's town now. His explanation that he was trying to look town early on explains a fair bit of what originally bothered me, and some of his later posts (especially his analysis of Manders's wagon) were ridiculously townie. I can go back and find more specific examples if it becomes necessary or someone really wants me to.
I'm curious, why AE over Cyouni or Ahlyis? Just by the reasoning you give above, one of those two seems like a better target.
Actually, I don't really agree with Cyan there. Given that the set-up has a Bus Driver (which is basically like a doctor that if he successfully protects he gets a free vig shot), I wouldn't take it as red that we even have a full doctor. Especially with IB's bulletproof claim.
~
Eh, screw it. More later.
It came across to me pretty clearly that he's claiming to have a role that doesn't quite fit the name.
I don't see any other way he could know for certain that GD did it in THIS game, no matter how many previous game's he reviewed of GD's.
With that in mind, I think you two are just fishing and it looks bad.
I thought about it, but assuming we had a vig, it seemed like a waste since I had a 50/50 shot of targeting someone that's going to die anyway. Also, I'm not sure I agree philosophically with killing a claimed survivor who is townsiding, or denying Cyouni the chance to meaningfully contribute before his inevitable downfall (assuming of course that both claims are accurate, which I currently believe). That might well be a naive position, I admit.
The more logical question would be, why not redirect to IB? You know, the bulletproof.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
SS said that he thought you might be scum and wouldn't mind if you ate an NK. He was effectively trying to play Vig, not Doctor.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Furthermore, I find myself agreeing with DancingMad's tone analysis.
EP's leaning scum, along with Cyouni. Manders still has the highest likelihood of being scum though.
Scum? I don't know yet. I'm curious what he thinks because I'm town and a few others placed me there early on and he has a completly different mindset regarding me.
Lying about what?
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Not expecting a response from infectiousbaloth on his waffling re:Foxlet.
As has been stated, EP's indignance there looks much more like 'I'm scum and I know it and I can't believe someone is making this crappy case against me' than anything else. Especially compared to how EP usually acts as town.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Why did you feel the need to include 'I'm town' in this post?
And if you are town, you fall into one of a few camps. Either you think that SS is lying about his role(you in particular should know definitively whether or not this is true), which by default makes him scum. Or you think that he is telling the truth about having redirected abilities targeting EP to make them target you instead. Or you think he is town and believe him entirely.
So..which is it?
Whats the problem with that? Do you have an issue with the statement?
Can I have alot more votes on Cyan please? Do you see what he's doing? He's trying really hard.
I don't know what to think of him at this point which is why I asked him why I'm scummy when others did not. I also have no reason at the moment to not believe his claim.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
What exactly am I doing? Trying to figure out what your mindset is? OH NO BETTER VOTE ME.
This statement pretty much says..nothing.
This is a joke of a theory. Weaksauce. It holds no water. Its just a bad blanket statement.
Lol. Nothing to do with mindset. Nice big fishing excersion. Smoke and mirrors dude, smoke and mirrors. Your doing your best to mask it.
Sucks huh. I'm not giving you anything.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Wow. Just wow. Now your using a net huh? Not walking into that one. Sorry.
So what went wrong for you guys last night? Did SS really screw with your plans that bad?
They hate us cause they ain't us.
You are doing a fascinating job of not actually answering questions, and instead just making random pointless statements. Random pointless statements that make zero sense. I don't need to fish you, AE. I've been assuming that you are untargetable since I figured out that SS redirected my ability to you and then it 'failed'.
Alternatively, feel free to back up these various 'fishing' accusations. Or sit there and be quiet while I lynch scum-EP.
The only reason I don't post lengthy cases anymore is because I don't have the free time I used to. It was a holiday and my wife was stuck in Germany because of Lufthansa, so I had the time to make a long detailed response and case against Vox. I expected to get some OMGUS flak, but my case speaks for itself.
I think you need to clarify something as well because what you said is that a townie would not get annoyed at scum because the scum is doing their job.
As for clarifying my point, it's pretty simple: your logic is relying on me just being annoyed at Vox for nailing me for wrong reasons, but that doesn't make sense to me when I obviously took a long ****ing time to post what I did. I opened a word file, typed my thoughts, structured them, and pointed out the inherent hypocrisy and bias in what Vox said. Going against your theory of emotional posting is the case of someone writing a letter expressing their frustrations, maybe even having a specific target, to relieve their emotion in order to think clearly and then make a better decision instead of an impulsive one. That level of catharsis works against your opinion of my post, and simply discrediting Vox's case was not my goal; his case (on the surface) is simply lazy.
Also, it's not a blanket discredit if you have a lengthier response to another part of the same post.
This has been covered already. I am saying I'm not for a IB lynch because the evidence it's based on is bad and IB is just eager. I'm not sure how that's making sure to leave room in later. Especially bringing up my own target who I provided a case for the next day. If you are going to attack me for not voting, attack me for it there where it looks much worse in a reread.
TWO posts? I wasn't expecting "a couple things bothered me" so literal, and this one sucks anyways. Why on Earth would I not try and cut the MH vs. Cyan argument at the knees every time I see it? What could possibly be gained from the two of them bickering for a hundred posts and voting each other for (as you said) the 142nd time?
You really think anyone would look at that and think "I should let those two go at it, there's probably good analysis there!"
I'm going to be keeping up, but don't expect anything substantial, as typing on a touchscreen is hell.
V/LA until I replace my computer, hopefully monday.
Will make a post from work tomorrow.
An RVS vote, but a direct acknowledgement of Foxlet. It could be handwaved as null because they are IRL friends, but it's worth noting.
Why are you in the business of defending Foxlet? Rather than let Foxlet defend herself against Void?
Continued defense of confirmed scum Foxlet.
I'm not sure I see what Manders is getting at here. Manders, do you care to explain?
In #30, Void explains pretty clearly why he wants more information from Foxlet and then states he's not smearing her, he just wants more information.
It's similar, in my understanding, to the "smilie" tell.
Says the person who RVS votes Foxlet and spends her second post of the game defending her.
That doesn't bode well for you.
By making a joke about it, by playing the inexperience card. You have the search function too.
There's also no good rationale for Town to do it. If it's not pro-town, it might just be scummy.
These were already covered pretty thoroughly.
This is where Manders jumps on my wagon for agreeing with Ahlyis and then voting for him later on. Manders is the third vote on my wagon, after Cyouni and AE, two people with reasonably strong town cred. This is basically just a /barn vote of AE, but Manders gets much more aggressive with my wagon later.
Manders continues to press Ahlyis to know why my catching Foxlet in a lie is interesting.
That doesn't make it better since she had already been caught in a lie. Why are you defending Foxlet so much? It would make a lot of sense for you to put your neck out, as a strong player, for your scumbuddy.
Manders continues to defend Foxlet here, playing the big sister to her scumbuddy.
Finally, when the lie is spelled out for Manders and there is no way for her to deny its scumminess anymore, she asks Foxlet to explain.
These are two quotes (a double post) merged together, just so we all know. Ahlyis wants to vote for me, and Manders continues to put the pressure on my wagon.
Right, only three votes, there's no way I could be run up to claim range quickly by using that logic.
Voting is not necessarily something one needs to do. Why this question? Are you trying to pressure EP into voting?
Why would I mention Foxlet in a defense of myself? Your'e right, it was me just providing what I can while I can, and I did provide, and I continue to provide.
More defense of Foxlet. Why? Furthermore, it was a laughable amount of complete crap.
So what would constitute a scumtell for Foxlet? Especially considering she flipped scum. Think carefully.
Mostly, there was a problem with her continuing to elaborate after "answering" the question already.
AE misreps me and Manders supports this.
Bulletproof scum is LIKELY? Can you provide evidence for this? With links?
and yet, Foxlet WAS scum! But you continue to tie yourself to her!
But I'm not scum, and your wagon was garbage because of that.
So we have 1.
Continues to try to push my wagon after my claim.
This statement resonates with me. Noob scum? That's a bit of an overstatement, don't you think?
Continues to Barn AE and try to push my wagon.
Continues to defend Foxlet.
A number of things that are difficult to analyze here, but the last statement really stands out to me. Voxx expresses concern at the speed my wagon was run up, Ahlyis asks Voxx to expound on that concern, and it seems like Manders is trying to dissuade people from questioning why I was run up so quickly.
Fluff. Null.
Here's a good one. After Cyan casts a vote on MH, she handwaves the whole thing as Cyan ALWAYS thinking she's scum. Then, she proceeds to attempt to invalidate his case by saying that he's been wrong about her being scum before. It's all an attack on Cyan's credibility and it does nothing to defend her against the points Cyan raises.
I never saw this before. The town was in disarray at this point, we had an obvious scumspect (SS) and we were unfocused. Unfocused town tends to mislynch.
So in spite of thinking that I'm scum, Manders is happy to cast another /barn vote.
The rest of the post is asking for reasons for SS's T/S list. The Foxlet issue has to do with your alignment because you defended her pretty hard all game, contributing very little other than a defense.
You /barned my PBPA and threw down a vote, your second of the game. Seems pretty underjustified.
@Manders: What did you intend to get from this question?
At almost 400 pages in, Manders has a read on four players. Additionally, despite defending Foxlet tooth and nail, she makes no mention of Foxlet here.
Here, Manders puts on the defeatist mask, with exactly one vote on her and Cyan's suspicion of her. At this point, Cyan is not even voting Manders.
Looks to Jobie to talk about why she's town rather than defend herself.
RL or no, this reminds me a lot of Basic #49, where RL prevented you from providing any content... and you were scum.
This is a reaally good one. She calls kpaca out on "When you flip", which, if we look back to the post above, Manders says:
"And what about when I flip town? What will you do then?"
So the word 'when' was YOUR word. Way to misrep kpaca.
Let's look at a key word here: POSTS. That letter, "s" changes a lot. But then we get this change of heart:
She takes it back, and as I mentioned in part 1, the word "when" was in Manders' post, and was not kpaca's word.
But it's not a clear scum mindset, it's you using loaded language to paint him in a scummy light.
Another attempt to discredit Cyan.
How is saying that the Vig's decision is not automatic count as guiding the vig? Why are you mudslinging?
Again, discrediting Cyan. As we can see, there is plenty of in-game reason to suspect you.
So Ahlyis, SS, and kpaca are scummy... what happened to me?
Beginning to suspect AE.
Cyan is town. Okay.
Claims under virtually no pressure, which deprives the town of information from her wagon and further distracts the town.
After spewing information into the thread with only 3 votes on her, she tells us to lynch one of the following:
InfectiousBaloth - Town Bulletproof: I know I'm town.
Ahlyis - Neutral Survivor: a believable claim to be certain.
Cyouni - Town Miller: Again, believable, and likely to be town.
SilverSihhe - Town Redirector: a player I consider to be town at this point
MandersHex - Town Vanilla: About as big a loss as a survivor, and fairly scummy.
This looks to me like an act of desperation, because it is.
This conversation with Reya confuses me to no end, so I have no analysis to make here.
@Manders: can you explain this post? I'm not sure I understand your meaning here.
Cyan answers this quite eloquently, but to wit: you deprive the town of your wagon.
You had three votes on you. Three. The Silver wagon was carrying right along, but it was a bad wagon. If we end up outing several townies but lynching scum, isn't that good?
Here, she deliberately pretends to not understand Cyan's meaning about her claim being "blank".
So we can't meta you, and we can't modgame? Uh-huh.
and here's the self-vote. Manders, rather than replacing out, or fighting back (see: Cyan's Impafia) just implodes under very little pressure. Here, Ahlyis, SS, and kpaca are scum, AE is scum now, and I need to be looked at. Didn't I get run up already?
If you claim at L-7 and implode without defending yourself, it's much harder to find the opportunistic votes.
Okay Iso.
Can you provide a reasoning why it was opportunistic?
This is why there is a replacement system.
Why do you want it over with sooner? If you are town, and not scum, you would want the wagon to build slowly so we could analyze it after you are dead. If you were town, you wouldn't want to have the town start the game off with at least two dead players. (The day 1 lynch and then a night kill)
These are garbage reasons and are incredibly anti-town.
These two lines are null.
But you claimed at L-7. AE didn't provide much in terms of reasoning, and Cyan's reasoning was reasonably weak. If the wagon kept going without reasons, that would be a good time to start analyzing, but instead, you created a bigger distraction.
AE and I were both voting you at that point, and you've implied or stated outright that you felt we were both scum.
But you killed off a lot of that interaction by claiming and self-voting.
Manders continues to be unhelpful.
This reads like distancing to me re: SharkFoxigan. You seemed to think Foxlet was townie enough to stick your neck out, but Shark might be scum?
Manders T/S list probably deserves a post all its own, and might just get one.
Real life happens to us all, I suppose.
Just because I've forgot if I was voting for Manders already:
unvote; vote MandersHex