Uh, could you pay attention to posts I make later, please, and read all of them? This one, in particular. You might find it familiar, given that you quoted it and are trying to misrepresent what I said in it. Bolded for your convenience.
I'm trying to figure out how the bolded shows it's a misrep and I just can't. Has the list changed? Is the list as of a specific post number and you still have to read? If not I'm not seeing the misrep.
Oh, by the way, given the way you're trying to misrepresent what I said, you're now leaning scum to me. Congratulations.
I have to say that doesn't worry me a whole lot, since with adding me to it, you have 2/3 of the people in the game as neutral-leaning-scum/leaning-scum/scum.
I play as a naturally suspicious person. I think everyone's possibly scum unless they can absolutely prove otherwise, and I'm always wary of false claims. So my list is perfectly on form, actually.
Suspicion is fine, but calling everyone at least leaning scum except for 2 or 3? I find it hard to accept that as mere suspicion.
And now I'm realizing I missed a slew of posts be back soon.
I think Chicken has some valid points regarding Manders and WG. I point to this post:
Bolded for your convenience. So /Barn everything Manders says?
If I agree with what she says I have no problems barning it. If I agree with what someone else says I have no problems barning it. I like most of what Manders is saying this game, so I barn it. If she says stuff I don't like, I won't barn it.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
What I actually said was that this was the list I had while I wasn't playing. You, unless I'm misunderstanding you, are claiming that I've put this list together after I joined the game, and that my having 2 or 3 people as non-scum is a scumtell. That's not right. I put it together before joining the game, therefore it cannot be a scumtell. Basic logic.
I think we should hold off on a deadline, I feel like there is still a lot to be said. I've been so focused on Chickenfish that I haven't even weighed in on the Arnnaria fiasco yet.
No. You didn't address the fact that you have made a decision based on Manders "vouching" for someone.
1. In the past, I have had trouble reading KCC. I don't know why, but I do.
2. This game is no different.
3. I think Manders is town.
4. I trust Manders judgement on KCC if I think she is town.
5. KCC has only done one scummy thing (not releasing reads) which she will do later. So I don't see any reason to have her as scum.
6. Thus, I have her as leaning town until I see something to make me think otherwise.
Spring Break for me. I don't have any plans of going anywhere, but I did promise myself I'd quit smoking. So expect a crabbier version of myself for the next couple of days.
If you have a request, please do so now while I have my last pack. Lol.
I'VE BEEN WORKING ON A HUGE ****ING POST ALL DAY AND THIS POS COMPUTER AT WORK JUST CRAPPED OUT AND MADE ME LOSE IT ALL.
NOW YOU HAVE TO WAIT CAUSE I'M PISSED!!!
And, no, we don't need a deadline, Iso. The day's going fine, and the game just started. If it's 3 weeks out and we're still trying to decide what to do, then consider a deadline.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'VE BEEN WORKING ON A HUGE ****ING POST ALL DAY AND THIS POS COMPUTER AT WORK JUST CRAPPED OUT AND MADE ME LOSE IT ALL.
NOW YOU HAVE TO WAIT CAUSE I'M PISSED!!!
And, no, we don't need a deadline, Iso. The day's going fine, and the game just started. If it's 3 weeks out and we're still trying to decide what to do, then consider a deadline.
This seems like a regular occurrence - have you considered saving your posts intermittently?
Or, you know, not actively lurking...
Eron, you are a genius.
The way I see it. Either Chickenfish is scum, or his mouth ran away from him.
I also would love to see a list from him with reasoning.
I would also love to see a detailed list from Chicken. I think it would help tremendously.
Honestly, the flaw is this request inherent, seeing as I'm essentially asking for my own lynch. However, I'm not going to stop helping town, so I'll get the list together.
A few things to keep in mind:
1) I have pretty clearly expressed opinions on almost every player in this game at some point or another, and they haven't changed much. As I previously mentioned, they've no doubt been diluted by my defense/aggression towards my accusers who I believe to be scum. As such, I will be quoting myself a lot and reiterating/asking people for their opinions.
2) I hope you know what you're in for, asking me for a detailed post...
Seeing as this will probably take a few hours, I have a point to make in the meantime.
The answers to my question about why Manders is seeming so town to everybody have been highly unsatisfactory. I've given specific examples of Manders twisting my words, using terrible logic in the process, and voting for the person who seems the most likely future-lynch candidate.
The responses have been "I think Manders has shown good logic", and not much more (please correct me if I've missed anything). I would appreciate it if those of you who are blindly following Manders specifically address the same parts of shoddy logic displayed by Manders that I have, and explain your interpretation as 'good logic'.
Manders has applied plenty of good logic to plenty of situations, but as scum that would clearly be her role. Anybody can argue a good case when there's a semblance of one there, but that doesn't at all outweigh her arguing a case the wasn't there. If you disagree with my interpretation of her posts, please detail why.
Dude. This post has quite a lot of saying very little.
Right, so use those opinions for your list, like you say you're giong to.
Why say this? It's irrelevant. At this point, it's meaningless text that serves no point except to pad the post.
Take your own advice. A list is coming, so stop implying that I've already failed in making one.
Quote from Marr965 »
Why will it take a few hours to make a list from things you've posted? There's a search function at the top of the thread, you can search for posts you've made in this thread. Or are you using the intervening time to make this reasoning up?
Turns out I've got a lot to say about the start of the game, and for everyone's sake I'm saying it more concisely than I had in my own posts.
Also, I do more with my Friday night's than focus exclusively on mafia posts...
Quote from Marr965 »
I personally cannot say that I've seen those. Care to point them out in your list?
Obviously I will, once again, you're not practicing what you preach.
Quote from Marr965 »
I have Manders leaning town because she called Arn out on his terribad list (the first one) and has been doing some scumhunting.
So that's one really obvious bit of 'scumhunting'. Read Manders' posts carefully. There's actually not a whole lot of it (I address this in my list, so just wait)
Quote from Marr965 »
Quote from Chickenfish »
I would appreciate it if those of you who are blindly following Manders specifically address the same parts of shoddy logic displayed by Manders that I have, and explain your interpretation as 'good logic'.
Rather than the other bits of shoddy logic she's displayed? Oh, by the way, that's not twisting your words, simply drawing an inference from the words you used. If there are other bits of shoddy logic, by all means, tell us what they are, and we'll adress them as well (almost certainly. Unless we're all scum and this is some sort of really stupid "gang war" thing).
Nice try at a pre-emptive defense, but it is twisting my words. I think you know that because you tried to deny it before I even pointed it out. Putting the quoted bit of my post in context for everyone:
Quote from Chickenfish »
The responses have been "I think Manders has shown good logic", and not much more (please correct me if I've missed anything). I would appreciate it if those of you who are blindly following Manders specifically address the same parts of shoddy logic displayed by Manders that I have, and explain your interpretation as 'good logic'.
I was asking for an explanation of how you could possibly interpret the bad logic I spoke of as good logic.
Quote from Marr965 »
And it wouldn't as town? Sorry, I don't understand that. Can you explain why applying logic to situations isn't your job as town?
Once again, you're taking my comment out of context.
Quote from Chickenfish »
Manders has applied plenty of good logic to plenty of situations, but as scum that would clearly be her role. Anybody can argue a good case when there's a semblance of one there, but that doesn't at all outweigh her arguing a case the wasn't there.
My problem isn't her applying good logic to situations. Is town's goal to, and it's scum's job to appear to. However, she also applied what I consider to be very bad logic to a situation. It's in scum's interest to appear like they're applying good logic, and when this comes through as the falsehood that it is, that's worth noting. There's no reason town would apply faulty logic to try to frame somebody.
I've decided I'm going to post my list as lots of individual (spoilered) posts so people can read what I've done so far, but from this point on I'm not responding to anything new until I'm done.
There's been something a bit off about Manders from the beginning, starting with asking people whether their joke votes were serious or not (I voted based on Manders saying Batman had decreed she got in a fight...)
Mmm now you've got me wondering, since Manders seems to be questioning motives over the smallest of things, which appears to me like trying to appear busy. But then again she also makes a big thing out of RVS tells (which I agree with btw) so I'll have to look back to Avatar mafia this week to see if she did that there. And then find any games where she was town.
@Wheat_Grinder: I didn't realise somebody had picked up on her 'trying to appear busy' so early! What happened to this concern, as a lot of Manders' responses such as "Blah" fall under this category. Are you really satisfied that this isn't happening anymore?
I think Manders is town because she's been actively scum-hunting since RVS. However, without more elucidation from Manders on why she is actually voting for me, further comments will not be necessary because the reason I think she voted for me has already been confirmed as not being true by Manders herself.
There were several posts like this, and I must admit I was under this illusion too. However, upon reread, at the time that Arn said this (post 166), I can't really see any solid hunting from Manders. Can anybody find me examples of truly active scumhunting?
That's putting it a little lightly. What I should say is I implore you to go back and see that I'm right.
Post #186(far too long to quote again here). Have a look at the content in this post. There's almost none. Lots of "how does this make you feel", "that's scummy", "good catch", etc, but for such a big post there's hardly any actual information.
A highlight that I think that's worth pointing out though:
Quote from MandersHex »
Btw, if you guys are wondering, she's almost assuredly town. This is classic TFF (now KCC) town play. Yes, I can tell this early. Get over it.
This = "I'm saying she's town and not justifying it. Any criticism of this is invalid".
Also read the Zenjo bit. Sucking up then coaching. Nothing else.
The last thing about this post that I think is worth noting is this:
****, that was long and took FOREVER. Every goddamn one of you better read every word, too. >:[
= "GUYS, LOOK HOW HARD I'M POSTING, I"M HELPING TOO". It was long, congrats. Content please.
Manders' Post #236 My Post #284shows my feelings, and is some of the faulty logic and intentional misinterpretation I was asked to point out.
Also worth noting
You're the only one that's said "Overexplaining is how Chickenfish plays". Self-meta is nowhere near as worthy as others providing the meta.
Interesting change of view when it'll help get you a lynch.
Then there's a bunch of of short, "Blah" or otherwise unhelpful, pseudo-response type posts. It seems pointless quoting them and saying "and here's another one", they're there for all to see.
The rest of this nonsense will have to wait, but I had to comment on this.
Oh, and to say that Arnnaria's fearmongering is noted and called.
Unvote Vote: Arnnaria
Thought this was worth pointing out. It's looking like Arnnaria's a prime target for lynching, so attempt to subtly get on early to avoid detection. It doesn't matter what Arn flips, either - scum Manders just doesn't want to appear to vote at the wrong time.
So, that's a "summary" of my feelings on Manders.
Next up, Arnnaria!
I don't think this one is worth elaborating on too much. I've criticised Zenjo already for present his arguments in the form of just copying others, and I risk doing that here.
Arnnaria is equal on my list with Manders, I just felt I had a lot more to say about Manders.
I suspect Manders for the reasons that everyone has expressed throughout the game (eg posting with very little content, wishy-washy logic with voting and being 'convinced' to remove votes after absoultely no persuasion, etc), as well as the way he has acted since my "please lynch me" post. I've pointed out the bizareness and inconsistency of him suddenly deciding Manders is worth looking at when I flip town, despite previously stating Manders is "definitely town" on multiple occasions.
Next on my list is Marr965 (formerly Battlemaster), then I think I can cover the rest in a single post.
Ok, so I know I said I wouldn't do this, but most of this stuff will affect my next post, and figured I'd reply to 100% rather than 90% (and just consider it to be part of the Arn case):
Could you at least give a selection? You know, two or three. Sure, I know they're there (I vaguely remember reading at least one), but others may not.
I probably should have said "Then there continues to be", as I'd linked to one such example not long before in the post. Manders' posts are quite long, and have quotes within quotes, so I was avoiding relaying them again. #186 and #236 are good examples I linked in my previous post.
Also, I think I know what part of your problem with the whole "people are ignoring me" thing is. You are, not to beat around the bush, rude. If you are habitually rude, you will eventually make people ignore you (the reasoning running "oh, look, Chicken's being rude again, he probably doesn't have anything to say and it'll be ranty and annoying, let's ignore him"). Just... try to put some semblance of politeness into your posts, and you may get somewhere. As it stands, it looks like you're trying to turn yourself into a martyr by ruding everyone to death, and it's not going to work. Martyrs generally have to be liked.
This is a genuine concern to me, in an "outside the game" sense. The tone I tend to write my mafia posts in is that of an argumentative essay (obviously ignoring spelling, grammer, etc) - in that my primary focus is getting my point in there. If anybody has interpreted me as being rude towards them, or just being rude in general, I truly apologise.
Back to the game!
Quote from Marr965 »
Sorry, but could you clarify the point about "the way he has acted since the 'lynch me' post" (obviously paraphrased)? I'm not sure I understand quite what you're talking about.
Savage typo by me, sorry. Megaposting while doing other stuff is less that ideal, and had Manders arguments on the brain. EBWOP: I suspect Arnnaria for the reasons that everyone has expressed throughout the game...
Quote from Marr965 »
That I hadn't spotted, good find. That cements Arn as probably scum in my eyes. Do you think there's a possibility for Arn being a scumteam with Manders, and this being a bussing?
This is where I first point it out.
This is part of my frustration in being asked to post a detailed list. It's disappointing to know that a lot of my arguments have gone unnoticed the first time around. If others have been seeing me come across as rude, though, and that combined with the fact that a bunch of people think/thought of me as flailing scum, I can see why it's happened.
As for the Arn and Manders scum team - I've been convinced of that for quite some time now. At first it was because of thinking they had individual scum tells. However, since rereading the whole game it's easy to interpret Manders' criticisms of Arn as a combination of coaching and distancing (is this the same as bussing? I thought bussing referred more to when there were actual votes involved...), and Arn's flailings as experimenting which attitude towards Manders would get the most approval.
Quote from Marr965 »
This should be interesting. Not sure how you're going to post 9 people's reads in a single post, but nonetheless, this should be interesting.
It's because I'm sold on a Manders + Arn team which leaves one more. I have some things to say about you, Gamora, and KCC, but really that's about it. The rest of it then essentially boils down to the implied statement that seeing as I believe the 3 scum lie in a certain set of players, I believe the rest are town.
Most of the other players haven't done much that stands out, so there's room for them to join the 'potential 3rd' list, but until then it's hard for me to comment and quote things that don't stand out.
This probably sounds like a cop out at the moment, but wait til I've actually made the post before you're dissatisfies
Alright, so, Battlemaster. Unfortunately it's unreasonable to ask Marr965 to account for Battlemaster's actions, so it's going to be hard to shake my suspcions on this one. However, in the name of the list I'll reiterate Battlemaster's unsettling behaviour, then direct some stuff at Marr965
[spoiler=Battlemaster]
Quote from Battlemaster »
Quote from Gamora »
This is the first actual scummy thing that I`m picking up. The way I`m reading it is "I sit on the fence all the time so don`t mind me if I don`t take a side on someone."
The way that you preemptively give yourself an excuse for not taking a stance doesn`t seem very townish to me.
Vote Arnnaria
But to the other extreme you don't want to lynch too quickly. Especially now that we have no info on anyone else.
Talking of not wanting to lynch anyone too quickly in what's only post #71. Potentially an attempt to subliminally accept non-committal from him, but either way it's a bit off.
Quote from Battlemaster »
There is no why anyone you should hold back information about scum tells. All it does it hurt the town. You could better teach new players by showing the where the scum tells you found are. FOS KittyCupCake
Funnily this is in reference to KCC's voting me, which I also opposed.
However, this to me reads as saying the right thing but without justification. No argument about why it would hurt the jam, no acknowledgement and rebuttal of KCC's explanation and Manders', just "hurting town is bad".
Quote from Battlemaster »
Interesting strategy.
However as we are nearing the end of day one I hope you don't plan on holding information like this in because I don't want to make my decision without all the facts.
I think a bunch of us initially misinterpreted the ambiguity as "However, seeing as we are now nearing the end...". Even after the clarification that it should be read with the meaning "However when we begin to near the end of the day..." though, I still don't like it. No mention of KCC saying she'd eventually share, or my comments that it wasn't valid for KCC to do so, or anything else that had already happened in this discussion that he's apparently participating in.
Quote from Battlemaster »
Quote from Gamora »
Sure thing. After rereading post 65 by Arnarria in the context of the conversation and considering the fact that it had been pointed by other people that fence-sitting isn`t that uncommon for him it started to look like my argument was a little convaluted(I was trying to argue that by mentioning that he has hard time taking a stance he might be just trying to set up a cover to sit back and not take a side on anyone in this game). It became more apparent to me that the simplest answer was that he just made a standard comment about his previous play.
This, by no means, eliminates him as possible scum in my mind but it now comes off more as a null tell.
We will have to see. If arnarria just banwagons/lurks then then this quote, will be a big scum tell. If not then I agree null tell.
This is the one that struck all of us, I think. The phrasing of "big scum tell" is so accusatory about a situation that hadn't yet happened. Given that Arn is scum, overdoing the bussing when an opportunity arose?
Quote from Battlemaster »
If Arnarria he uses this quote as an excuse later on to sit back later not contribute much to the group or as an excuse to ride the bandwagon/hammer people. It would be a good indication that he was scum. If he does not I don’t really read it as a scum tell.
I hoped my comment would also cause Arnarria to not fence sit the rest of the game.
...or, as others pointed out, coaching. I didn't pick up on this, but once it's pointed out it's hard not to see!
Quote from Battlemaster »
I don’t understand what you mean by disruption. All I have been been doing is giving my 2 cents into the conversations. Not only is it important to find the scum but make sure we don’t lynch townies. The reason I haven’t been actively going after every player is I haven’t had enough time.
Again seems like he's trying too hard to be town.
Quote from Battlemaster »
My suspects so far are:
(1) KCC for not having one helpful post the whole game. I know we talked about this earlier but I thought she would have at least given us some clues or something…
(2) Arnnaria Arrnaria's quote about normally lurking
One non-scum and one scum to make it not look blatantly like bussing? (I know this reads as though I don't think KCC's scum, but in the scenario that Battlemaster's scum and there's only 3 scum, it makes KCC town).
Either way, deep in the game and not much info (hard to know whether this should be ignored though, seeing as he subbed out due to being too busy..)
[/spoiler]
Now, onto my thoughts on you Marr.
[spoiler=Marr965]I admit my brain read everything you posted as scummy from the first post, seeing as you took over from Battlemaster, but even since rereading this several times for the sake of this list, I still have my doubts about you.
Quote from Marr965 »
I am willing to post a list should people want. Otherwise, I'm probably going to vote. I'll give it until tomorrow (that's here IRL (Britain), not in-game or America). It's late here, so I'mma head bedwards.
How could you even entertain the idea of subbing into a game and voting without posting some sort of list. Of course we want a list - stop being friendly! (that last bit is what my already skeptical brain said to me)
Now for the list, ranked in order of least scummy to most:
Eron
To me, Eron feels the least scummy player, and therefore, the most town player. He's done some major scum-hunting early on (#58, #68, #79), and he's made good protown points (#97, #109, #110, #148). He slipped up with his point regarding wagons (#160), but other than that, he's feeling town to me. My brain and my gut say he's town.
Manders
This is much less of a thing than Eron, but Maders still feels town to me, due to her callling Arn out for his poor list (#114).
Wheat
Wheat's made good town points, but I'm not so sure about him. I've got him as neutral here.
Gigas and Mirac
I'm lumping these guys together, they're neutral leaning scum, due to lurking.
Chicken
Chicken feels... off to me, somehow. He gave a good reason for his jokevote, but I'm not entirely certain he won't stab us in the back (if that makes sense). I'm putting him down as neutral, leaning scum.
Zenjo
I'm putting Zenjo as mild scum-feel, due to his calling out of Chicken (#119) and lack of quotes for the same.
Gamora
Gamora I've got as being really quite scummy. He wants to lynch over something others think is fine (Arn's fence-sitting, now admittedly, fence-sitting is a scummy thing to do, but at least one other person seems to be happy with Arn doing that. #69), and he then backs down quite quickly (#95), then there's a pause before his explanation, like he's had to put something coherent together (#104). He's character played despite the warning in the very first post (#1, #158). However, he has made good points regarding discussion (#72, #155).
Arn
Arn seems to be the second scummiest person on the list to me. He's excusing himself for fence-sitting before he does any (yes, I know I defended him for it in Gamora's bit. No, this isn't the only reason I've got Arn down as scum. #65). He posted that awful list early on (#111). He's posted without content (I can't remember the exact post numbers at the moment, I'll probably find them later) and he's completely off the mark (or at least I think so) with these comments. The bolded bits are what I have issue with.
Quote from Arnnaria »
Which is why I think Manders is so upset about my town/scum list.
Quote from Arnnaria »
My scum/town list was so upsetting to Manders that she voted for me, citing that she would add extra info later.
Kitty
Here we go. Kitty feels like the scummiest player, to me. I really don't like the fact that she voted with no explanation, only the promise of the same (#66), given that it was explicitly stated (by her) to be a serious vote (#75). Also, Wheat made a very good point regarding being scummy early (#85). It's not okay to be scummy early, because that only gets you lynched early. To be honest, Kitty also gutfeels scummy to me.
At this point, I feel I can get behind an Arn or Kitty wagon. I'll refrain from doing so, yet, as I want to see whether either of them can refute any of my points. However, FoS: Arnnaria, KittyCupCake.
Eron - I think he's pretty solidly town in everyone's mind, no issue with this part of your post.
Manders - it's much, much less of a thing. In fact it's almost nothing, and it's the one thing you'd been hanging onto as your pro-Manders argument in the face of all my recent accusations towards her. With a you/Manders/Arn scum team, you taking this position makes a lot of sense.
Wheat - Why weren't you certain? In what may as well be your first post of the game, that's what you gave us? You criticised my post on Manders for not quoting things that you remembered - but here you don't quote anything for any sort of justification.
Gigas and Mirac - makes sense at that point, no issue
Chicken - the 'stab us in the back' thing didn't really make sense, but I figured it was just an awkward turn of phrase by you. I wished I'd picked you up on it earlier - if it's not too late I'd like to ask you what you were implying here. To me it sounds like you're trying to invoke the image "if he convinces you he can be trusted, it doesn't mean he can" in people's minds.
Zenjo - agree on the vibe, not on the reason
Gamora - agree
Arn and Kitty - the order you have these two in seems backwards to me. As far as I can see you make a better case against Arn than you do Kitty (if you account for the fact that you neglect to mention Kitty's defense anywhere), but you rank Kitty the scummiest? Avoiding the obvious bus when Arn flips town?
Also, you say Wheat made a good point in calling out Kitty early, but say you're not so sure about him. Manders does the same with a much less insightful call-out of Arn, and that ranks her as town?
As for the last bit - there was nothing even close to a wagon forming, and you'd said in your previous post that you were going to vote. Why not just vote for KCC who feels like the scummiest player to you, other than to avoid some heat the general population were probably aiming at Battlemaster?
Oh, also, my forum mafia experience is non-existant. I've done some mafia in the IRC chatroom, but apart from that, my mafia experience is actually a distinct lack of the same.
Same get-out-of-jail-free card that Arn applied for...
Uh, could you pay attention to posts I make later, please, and read all of them? This one, in particular. You might find it familiar, given that you quoted it and are trying to misrepresent what I said in it. Bolded for your convenience.
Oh, by the way, given the way you're trying to misrepresent what I said, you're now leaning scum to me. Congratulations.
You are guilty of both the crimes you're accusing Wheat_Grinder of here (refer my post 330 for me pointing out times you've missed my stuff, and my post 326 for you twisting my words).
Um, weren't you the person who was arguing against lists at this point in the game? Where's this come from? Did you change your mind about them or something?
I argued against them at the earlier stage of the game when information was limited. I'm good with them now. If people don't have reads at this point, then there is a problem.
Another misinterpretation of somebody's words, they correct you, and you don't address the issue or them any further. Furthermore, it's Eron who you complimented for all his scum hunting during a time which included him being against lists.
As for your more recent posts, I've already addressed them soon after (look up 2 or 3 posts and you're there)[/spoiler]
While there's a lot of what appear to be questions after me quoting you, don't feel obliged to answer them. I'd greatly appreciate it if you could, but they're more accurately an expression of something that was niggling at me from the back of my mind while I read the posts.
At this stage I'm fairly confident that the scum team is Manders, Arn, Marr, but willing to be proven wrong on the Marr front.
Alright, let's see if I can finish this thing
Another one who doesn't need much elaboration. Everyone has been in agreement that he was shaky in his reasoning, and worded some things pretty shockingly. I'd not at all be surprised if he turned out to be Manders/Arn's number 3, and the only reason he's not number 3 at the moment is honestly probably just because he's not fresh in my mind. Iso: As far as I can see it's over 3 days since Gamora's shown activity - has he been modprodded?
Much closer to neutral than I ever thought she'd get.
I've seen worse, but as I mentioned in the analysis, it's not a strong indicator of alignment. -I was just going through the whole post.
While the rest of this analysis was just there to explain the reasons for my initial vote, this was the only part that I really wanted you to address to at this point. -And you haven't.
I had no problem with you leaving your vote and FOSing a new suspect. My issue here is that you defended Arn's post, saying that it read naturally to you as part of the conversation, and then you placed suspicion on him anyway.
I never said it was some huge tell. We were in the early game, and it was something for me to look into. -In fact, the only reason I even approached it the way I did is because The FOS wasn't a strong tell, and because of that it likely wouldn't have resulted in much discussion. And that wasn't helpful to me because I wanted you to be under the spotlight for a bit...
I agree. I don't think it was nervousness, and therefore I don't think it's a scum tell. But, the best way for me to figure that out was to quickly put a lot of attention on you and see if you crack. And you didn't. And while I'd still like more of a response to point 3, I'm otherwise happy to move on now. Especially since someone should be back soon.
This argument is very smooth - if you're scum I'll be impressed (trust me - I'm open to being impressed :p). As much as I hate to admit it, I think there was a point at around the time of KCC initially explaining her original 'tell' that I was frustrated with the state of the game. I think the argument I've just quoted is better than the first explanation she gave, but also I think there was element of OMGUS to my reactionary vote for KCC.
KCC is still very much on my radar, but through no particular action of her own I now think it makes less sense that she's scum (namely, my top 3 are still in the game, so naturally I'm less likely to believe KCC is scum).
The discussion about the lack of explanation for the vote is, I think, a good conversation about strategy to have outside of this game, because I think you really did just draw attention to yourself. You also achieved your goal of putting me under a bunch of pressure (although my big mouth probably gets a lot of that credit too), but at what cost?
At the start of the game it was frustrating me that Manders was blindly willing to believe KCC was town, but I had the wrong end of it. Reading back with my top 3 in mind as scum, I can see it as an emotional appeal from Manders to get her friend KCC on board as a "Manders is town" believer, not just blindness or buddying.
As such, Kitty has been downgraded in my mind to 'neural leaning-scum', with the lean because the validity RVS strategy is still a huge question in my mind.
As for everyone else, they haven't done anything nearly as off as the people I've previously mentioned, so naturally that lands them in my town basket. In a vacuum, some would be in my neutral basket, some neutral-leaning town, some town. So, pretending that this is a vacuum, it looks like this:
Wheat_Grinder - Seems to have generally good intentions with the questions being asked/comments being made. One post I don't like is:
No. You didn't address the fact that you have made a decision based on Manders "vouching" for someone.
1. In the past, I have had trouble reading KCC. I don't know why, but I do.
2. This game is no different.
3. I think Manders is town.
4. I trust Manders judgement on KCC if I think she is town.
5. KCC has only done one scummy thing (not releasing reads) which she will do later. So I don't see any reason to have her as scum.
6. Thus, I have her as leaning town until I see something to make me think otherwise.
I'm sure you know by now how I feel about 3. On the front of 4 though, I feel like this is a bit of a lax, potentially dangerous approach to this game. This pings me a bit, so it brings into question your other stuff, unfortunately.
Also, @Wheat_Grinder, how do you feel about the case I've made against Manders, and how does that influence your opinion of KCC?
Zenjo - I gave him some 'early' (in terms of his first post) heat about not making strong reads, and claiming others as his own. Has since picked up his game, and I'm happy to believe that it was because he felt under pressure to contribute, and was posting from notes written as he saw things rather than trying to remember everything then posting.
Gigas1 - assuming the search function is working properly, has posted 4 times all up, and one was to explain that he wouldn't be posting for a bit. Dead neutral, for obvious reasons. (PS. congrats on the scholarship).
Miracule and Foxlet - Posting more recently, and no issues with the stuff they've posted. They've expressed concerns in a logical, concise manner and evaluated responses appropriately.
Eron - still top of my town list, and I think top of everyone's town list. Hasn't given anything other than good vibes since real discussion started.
Aaaaaaaaand there it is.
If there's anybody who's not reading absolutely every bit of these long posts, I recommend at least opening up the spoiler tags and searching your name - there may be stuff pertaining to you around the place.
Wheat_Grinder - Seems to have generally good intentions with the questions being asked/comments being made. One post I don't like is:I'm sure you know by now how I feel about 3. On the front of 4 though, I feel like this is a bit of a lax, potentially dangerous approach to this game. This pings me a bit, so it brings into question your other stuff, unfortunately.
Also, @Wheat_Grinder, how do you feel about the case I've made against Manders, and how does that influence your opinion of KCC?
I've commented on it before. If you're scum you're retaliating on Manders and that just solidifies both reads. If you're town you're frustrated that she's on your wagon and vocal about it and so you're retaliating anyway because in your mind she's trying to mislynch you. I suspect you're scum, but I'm letting you know for future games in case it's the second. Either way, I don't agree with your case much, and it doesn't influence my read on KCC.
I'll say one last thing on KCC, though. Even though my read is influenced by Manders, I have pretty strong scum reads on three different people. So far I have had little reason to suspect KCC, and a ton of reason to suspect the other three. I see no reason, today at least, to revisit that read. Tomorrow or day 3, I certainly will.
This is the post that initially pinged my scumdar and prompted me asking for a town/scum list. You give 0 reasons for Chickenfish and Gamora being town, then go on to say KCC is leaning scum, yet you leave yourself an out. And not just any out, like, "I may" or "I might be persuaded."
No. You said, "I'll change my mind about this."
Chickenfish didn't place an OMGUS vote on KCC. I took this as a town read. In the games I've been in, when a scum is backed into a corner they go on the offensive and try to take the other person down a peg. AT FIRST, chickenfish did not do that. But as time went on he got more and more paranoid about KCC's reasoning; it almost became an obsession.
Gamora, I responded to this in my post for Wheat Grinder:
Gamora backing off on me and not pushing a mislynch (which I think he could have easily done by the following scenario: Gamora convinces one other person I'm scum, that's two votes. Manders, who thinks I'm scum, and you, who think I'm scum, vote for me. That's four votes. Zenjo is on me right now. That's five votes. All of a sudden I'm forced to claim. Throw in two scum buddies and you've got your mislynch.) But that didn't happen. Gamora quickly and vocally turned his vote off me. If Gamora were scum, this day would've been over already.
Why have you yet to respond to the underlined portion? You know, the part that pinged my scumdar in the first place?
Alright, time to tear it apart:
His reasoning for Chickenfish isn't indicative of alignment in the least. It's indicative of noob.
Yes, my reasoning for Chickenfish is indicative of noob.
Then why does that tell you he's town?
His reasoning for myself is just naive. I mean, I am town, so he got lucky, but I scumhunt when I'm scum, too. KCC and Gigas can vouch for this.
No, I don't think my reasoning for you is naive. If played with you in the staff game and remember I had the "gut feeling" about you. You turned out to be town. I've seen you play town. You are definitely town.
It is the very definition of naive, Arnnaria. Ask anyone that's played with me before. Hell, PM the mod and ask him as he knows me better than anyone here! I scumhunt regardless of alignment. So calling me town and stating no reason why other than "she's scumhunting" is naive. Why are you arguing with me over this?
It's called actively lurking, and is the number one tell I have on you right now. It is the reason I think you are scum. You have the most post ITT (or second, I can't recall) yet I can't remember crap you've contributed other than self-meta, two lists with terrible reason, and olive branch extending.
I will place a vote on someone by the end of this thread.
Votes don't mean ****. Did you think this would appease me?
Oh, good, another list. Why'd you make this?
I made it because my first list was so crappy.
Is that you admitting it was bad or repeating what I said?
Gamora: Still WIFOM.
Duly Noted
Earlier you said "Duly noted" meant you didn't necessarily agree, but you concede the point. Does that definition apply here?
Zenjo: All these good points you give for scumhunting, yet you don't do it yourself. Hmm.
Because I don't know how to as effectively as the rest of you guys do.
If you think I expect everyone to scumhunt as effectively as I do, you misunderstand me completely.
KCC: I thought she was leaning scum? For that same reasoning? What happened?
Many people have vouched for KCC playing her "town game" who are also town. This persuaded me to change her alignment.
Who vouched for her, other than me?
What do I have to do with your vote?
Because I respect your opinion and you are the only person I'm sure 100% is town.
So you're admitting that you voted for him because I did? Loverly.
Meh, I guess so. IMO that's nearly the same as demanding.
Insisting is a bit less severe than demanding, imo.
Isn't that a scum tell? Not contributing much and being a hypocrite. Or is that one of my reasons that kinda suck?
Not sure what your asking exactly...I hope I answered the question.
I don't know, is it?
(If you haven't figured it out yet, I'm not going to give you the answer here. I want to see your work.)
I should have been more explicit. There's nothing wrong with defending her right to put off explaining the vote. What would have been wrong would be actually providing reasons for the vote.
Like what ChickenFish said, that would be 'doing her dirty work for her'.
What you did was fine.
Why would it have been bad for me to make guesses as to why KCC voted for Chickenfish?
I usually make it a point to place my vote after their rebuttal, not at the end of a post attacking them. I want the last words to be said to be theirs. And if its to the point where I'm just not satisfied with their defense, then I'll put the vote on them. I don't like to just place a vote without hearing what they have to say first.
This is true about people who actually "fence sit", ie don't give opinions of their own. I tried to put my opinion out there once things got moving, even though I'm still learning as well. I realize my reads are going to be poo starting in the beginning, but as time passes hopefully they get better...I HOPE
fencesitting =/= not giving their own opinions, btw. fence-sitting = taking a little from column A and a little from column B on any particular issue.
And no, I haven't done much scum hunting up until this point. I avoid confrontations until I need information. Which is why I placed the vote on you (even though I didn't realize at the time that you had two other votes on you). It wasn't until I got this clarification that you only needed 4 more that I rescinded my vote. However, I'm glad I did because this wall of text is the best post that has been given on various alignments of people thus far.
For clarification: was this part supposed to have been in quotes, meaning written by Arnnaria? Or, if you wrote it, what does it mean?
There is a difference between an actual confrontation and information gathering. They are not necessarily mutually inclusive (even in a mafia game ) This is also the second time you have essentially mentioned "baiting" Eron. Why are you not baiting Gamora just as much?
That is an excellent question.
You have no idea how hard it is (for me) to come up with each post and try to make them make sense as well
Just say what's in your heart. This is probably what's been bothering me about your posts. They feel fake, cause they are, cause you've been very careful about what you post. The feeling behind the posts reads as town, but the posts give me blechity feelings.
IMO, I don't think the idea was to hold your feet over the fire, so much as to see your reasoning (who was on your list originally and why, what changed and why).
Precisely, and for him to come back so defensively (she's trying to trap me!!) was just terrible.
Well there you have it. GL town, sorry for my terrible play there.
I didn't like it because the wording sounded scummy, as though of a scum trying to board a naive town onto a bad wagon. I don't mind it so much now that I think Arnnaria is scum though.
Gotcha.
He's scum. I wasn't sure he was scum or not at that point, so I had him leaning until I decided.
Hmm, it looks weird.
What don't you like about that?
You didn't vote for Chickenfish, but I'm over it. Arnnaria needs to be lynched.
Well I can see the writing on the wall. Manders or Wheat Grinder, can you mentor me in the next basic I play when I flip town?
I won't, but only because the last guy I tried to mentor got left in the dust.
However, you have Ecophagy now. ECOPHAGY. One of the greatest players on this site. So this BS statement of yours reads as blatant ass-kissing. It won't work.
Why would it have been bad for me to make guesses as to why KCC voted for Chickenfish?
As Chickenfish pointed out, it would be sort of 'doing her dirty work' for her. If you give a good enough reason, and says 'yep that was it', then KCC would be getting on the credit for scum hunting, when she didn't necessarily do any.
And as we've seen from some of these people's lists, 'scum hunting' makes them think you're town. So if KCC did that, it would basically be like slipping onto people's town list without having done anything at all.
At this stage in the game however, I'm ready to admit that KCC is town.
I'm writing a very large post! It's about Arnnaria and Chickenfish! But I don't think I'll have time to finish it before tomorrow, or maybe sunday! I'm going to have a really busy weekend, so I may be pretty scarce! I'll chime in as much as I can!
For clarification: was this part supposed to have been in quotes, meaning written by Arnnaria? Or, if you wrote it, what does it mean?
Yeah... it was a Arn quote fail (still getting used to trying to multi quote too). Thats what I get for not triple checking before I posted everything
Anyway, this is the day I work until late, but I have a lot of down time between the clients. I work on the backlog (I notice the whole slew of info Chicken put out) and try to keep updated.
I wanted to remind everyone V/LA starting tomorrow until the 21st. I'll be traveling a good part of tomorrow, but I might be able to make a few small phone posts if I'm lucky.
This is the post that initially pinged my scumdar and prompted me asking for a town/scum list. You give 0 reasons for Chickenfish and Gamora being town, then go on to say KCC is leaning scum, yet you leave yourself an out. And not just any out, like, "I may" or "I might be persuaded."
No. You said, "I'll change my mind about this."
If you're going to place a vote on me for my diction, then I've lost all hope for you. Because I said what I was feeling and left out an out like "may"?
It's diction. I like being direct. I feel as if I posted "may" you'd be hitting me upside the head for waffling. Is there seriously no pleasing you Manders?
I'm not responding to the rest of your comments Manders. Other people think it's rubbish, I think it's rubbish, I think you're pushing for a lynch on me for personal reasons.
What those reasons are, I do not understand, but when you can make a logically sound argument of what I've done that's been scummy, I'll respond to you. But if you're going to consistently attack my diction and noobishness, then I have nothing more to say.
I must say that Mander's willingness to lynch me after I claimed a town role is definitely scummy. For all the people who are power roles out there, you know the reason why it's scummy. It's right in your role explanation which I re-read last night. I didn't catch it the first time, but on the readthrough it makes much more sense.
As for not revealing my true role, you can assume that it's not Doctor (because I've played a doctor before) and it's not a Cop (because I've seen a cop in action before). I know coming out will probably lead to a roleblock. But, I'm fine with that because it will be a wasted roleblock as I'm not the Doctor or Cop. I think claiming that I am a role is going to be beneficial to the town, which is why I did it. It's going to free up the other roles to do their work.
The second bit though - you wouldn't have cared? It should at least have registered on your radar as something to maybe remember in the future
No, I would not give a rat's ass if someone else had seen the same thing she saw and said it before she did. In fact, that would look good on them. Now, if the game continues and this occurs with all her reads, then we have a problem.
this adds to the argument that you've selectively been (apparently) scumhunting from the start rather than scrutinising across the board.
Just because I don't comment on someone doesn't mean I'm not watching them. Everyone gets scrutinized, but only those I focus on are done publicly. I'm not the only person that plays this way.
Not true - things can be implied. Once again, already explained that why, until the point where KCC came out with it (which has already happened and we're past it, so why are you bringing up stuff that's no longer relevant (obviously until a later day with more alignment info)), and you reference it above. Not adding any content...
It's called having an ongoing discussion. Do you have a problem with me wanting to complete a discussion when the resolution to what started the discussion has already occurred? If so, find another game.
My point is the fact that the vote was on me had nothing to do with my reaction. I was arguing the method in which the vote was applied.
When did I say anything about you disliking that the vote was on you? Quote it.
Where is the concern for my image in the bit you quoted? I've presented a logical argument and you've given an emotional response.
I don't have time to go find all the posts you've made (which I've already quoted and showed) that show you're worried about your image.
The only dichotomy I've ever discussed is the one between me and KCC. Never said anything about Arnnaria and KCC.
That's what I get for trying to do this **** in between calls.
I was talking about the dichotomy you set up with yourself and KCC.
The thing is - you haven't even misinterpreted who the conversation was about; see (*) below.
And have no clue what you're talking about here.
Another example of not creating content...
Asking questions is scumhunting, so get the **** off my back.
You found it acceptable. You can't state something like that as an absolute. Obviously the reason this has even come up is because not everybody thought it was acceptable.
So? Yeah, I think it's acceptable. I also think anyone who doesn't is kinda silly. I'm entitled to those opinions.
I never said otherwise. My point still stands.
That's why she shouldn't care!!
As above
You're obtuse.
Somebody once said
Quote from Manders »
Self-meta is nowhere near as worthy as others providing the meta.
As such, I'm sure you won't be surprised to hear your self-meta means nothing to me.
Wow, so it means nothing? I said nowhere near as worthy (meaning still worthy) but cool. You don't wanna take it from me? ASK ANY MOTHER ****ER IN THIS FORUM WHO'S BEEN HERE ANY AMOUNT OF TIME.
And stop ****ing condescending me.
(*)Here it is! You knew that the dichotomy of which I spoke was between KCC and myself. HOWEVER, you're just making things up now. I expressed concern that the "one is scum one is town" logic would form in people's minds, and that I didn't want that to happen. I said exactly the opposite of your reason to vote me.
I only have one vote, and it's got better targets.
More to come, but I have to go out now. However, what really needs to happen is Unvote, Vote: MandersHex
If you expect me to never make mistakes, you're ridiculous.
Lynch me today please - it'll show my arguments are serious and will avoid further clutter.
Manders - why is everyone pro Manders? Overly friendly when it's convenient, extremely flawed logic as the day goes on.
Arnnaria - claiming type post. WHAT?
lol @ defeatism. Beautiful.
Too bad we're lynching Arnnaria today. You waited too long.
Also, just because people don't agree with your statements/theories, doesn't mean they're ignoring them.
This bit should probably read She also appears to be changing her vote to the person who seems most likely to be lynched at any given time, but before the votes begin to reflect it. to drive the point home.
That must be what you're doing. Me, I was having trouble deciding between you and Arnnaria. Now, I know that either is an excellent choice.
Add to that the fact that I've been the first (or at the most 2nd) person on every wagon I've been on (read: you or Arnnaria) and you're full of it.
Glad you like my post, given that you seem to think people think you're scum. I actually put the list together while reading through, not while I was playing.
However.
Given what I said and the fact that this guy is already on the Kittywagon:
At this point, I feel I can get behind an Arn or Kitty wagon. I'll refrain from doing so, yet, as I want to see whether either of them can refute any of my points. However, FoS: Arnnaria, KittyCupCake.
Neither of them have responded to your statements, so why did you make this post?
I have her listed as town, but all of my reasons have fallen on deaf ears to her. It's like I can't do anything in her eyes that isn't scummy. Even claiming town and a role is "fearmongering" to her.
Do you know what "fearmongering" means? If you did, you'd know that's exactly what you did with that post. "Ooh, better watch out, I have an awesome role!"
If I get lynched tonight, there is a duo of Manders and Wheat Grinder that really needs to get looked into. The third musketeer is Zenjo, who has given "sucky responses" but has been taken under Manders' wing because he is voting the way she prefers. I've given sucky responses but I haven't been taken under anyone's wing because I think Manders buddies are scum.
LOL I was town from the get go until now. That's funny.
At this point, I don't know what to think anymore. Manders might not be town (I've never seen her scum game), but I think she's swayed so many people (KCC, Zenjo, Wheat Grinder) that getting a lynch on her is statistically impossible at this point.
I am pretty flipping hard to lynch when I'm town. I am a popular scum NK choice, though.
The game changes all the time. To say that your arguments are being ignored just because you're under evaluation is silly, and untrue. The reason I hadn't placed a vote on you up to this point was because you were providing arguments that (while I disagreed with them) still had some truth to them.
This guy makes sense.
This entire post felt like one giant appeal to emotion.
Also I'd rather not lynch you today anyway, because on the chance you are town, you've been talking a lot and could probably work your way out of the hole tomorrow with some solid scumhunting.
trufax
I really really don't like this, and this solidifies you as scum to me even more.
If I'm not mistaken, Manders is the only one who has said my responses are sucky. In fact, recently I'm not sure on my read on her. Still waiting for her to respond to my questions before I re-evaluate my read on her. Her taking me "under her wing" has made me very skeptical to what she says because I don't want to be swayed by other peoples opinions without looking at the logic behind them.
You sure were quick to accept being Seppel V.2, though. Why was that?
Spring Break for me. I don't have any plans of going anywhere, but I did promise myself I'd quit smoking. So expect a crabbier version of myself for the next couple of days.
If you have a request, please do so now while I have my last pack. Lol.
Manders you keep on saying I'm gonna get lynched tonight like it's a foregone conclusion. Where are the three extra votes coming from? Is it from your stout reasoning and fantastic logic? Because I have seen neither of these coming from you. If you read between the lines, you'd see the people you need to be swaying in order to lynch me are slowly becoming suspicious of you.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Now this is untrue, unless Manders is much less forgiving than I thought.
Mar, honestly, if Manders pulled one or two scummy things from what I say and then conceded that I was at least faking town for the other 50% (let's be generous), maybe I could see her reasoning.
But.
Every.
Single.
Line.
Of.
Every.
Single.
Post.
Is scummy in her eyes. She's dug a hole so deep for me, that everything I'm trying to say in my defense is a scum tell. She has not conceded once on one idea or thought that I've had has been "good for the town."
If I was scum, wouldn't I be hiding better? I have a mentor, wouldn't he be helping me? But no, Manders is shooting at every single line in some of my posts! People who play scum aren't scummy 100% of the time. Do you really think I'm this bad at the game?
@Arnnaria: Placing a single vote on someone by the time the thread ends! "I placed a vote on someone! I'm a big boy now!" Seriously? Once the thread has finished, the game will be over!
And you accuse me of not reading everything in a post.
I wanted to remind everyone V/LA starting tomorrow until the 21st. I'll be traveling a good part of tomorrow, but I might be able to make a few small phone posts if I'm lucky.
I must say that Mander's willingness to lynch me after I claimed a town role is definitely scummy. For all the people who are power roles out there, you know the reason why it's scummy. It's right in your role explanation which I re-read last night. I didn't catch it the first time, but on the readthrough it makes much more sense.
As for not revealing my true role, you can assume that it's not Doctor (because I've played a doctor before) and it's not a Cop (because I've seen a cop in action before). I know coming out will probably lead to a roleblock. But, I'm fine with that because it will be a wasted roleblock as I'm not the Doctor or Cop. I think claiming that I am a role is going to be beneficial to the town, which is why I did it. It's going to free up the other roles to do their work.
Except you haven't claimed the actual role, so how do we know for sure that you're telling the truth? Saying you're a PR isn't a full shield you know.
Manders you keep on saying I'm gonna get lynched tonight like it's a foregone conclusion. Where are the three extra votes coming from? Is it from your stout reasoning and fantastic logic? Because I have seen neither of these coming from you. If you read between the lines, you'd see the people you need to be swaying in order to lynch me are slowly becoming suspicious of you.
If I was scum, wouldn't I be hiding better? I have a mentor, wouldn't he be helping me? But no, Manders is shooting at every single line in some of my posts! People who play scum aren't scummy 100% of the time. Do you really think I'm this bad at the game?
First bolded: WIFOM
Second bolded: You yourself have said so numerous times by saying you're a noob! You can't have both sides of the street.
Larten Crepsley (this has no meaning to me because I have no idea of the flavor of this game, and Iso said flavor-gaming was useless anyway. So I don't know why you want it, but I'm assuming you do.)
Town Tracker (Every night I can pick a player. I get to see who they targeted if anyone that night. I didn't understand the role at first, but it seems similar to a Cop. But with bad consequences because if I target a town, and the town targets a scum, I might think that the town is scum and the scum is town.)
Further, you didn't respond to my point regarding childishness. That point still stands, and is in fact reinforced by your response to my post, which conveniently ignores all but a single part of my post: the part which is relevant to the extremely narrow track you're walking down, which is Manders being scum.
I just gave up cigarettes 23.5 hours ago. That accounts for the change in tone of my posts over the time period. I feel like I'm just fighting to stay alive.
While I ignored your childness comment, you're ignoring my claim.
Larten Crepsley (this has no meaning to me because I have no idea of the flavor of this game, and Iso said flavor-gaming was useless anyway. So I don't know why you want it, but I'm assuming you do.)
Town Tracker (Every night I can pick a player. I get to see who they targeted if anyone that night. I didn't understand the role at first, but it seems similar to a Cop. But with bad consequences because if I target a town, and the town targets a scum, I might think that the town is scum and the scum is town.)
Unvote, vote Marr965
Until someone cc's you, I won't vote you. Especially since we have other scumspects on the table.
I will say this: If there is a cop, watcher, or tracker, don't claim right away today, but claim tomorrow. That way, we'll have a result to go off of, along with scum to lynch tomorrow. I'll also say this: If someone is a cop, it's very, very unlikely that Arnnaria is the tracker.
As for today, I'm up for lynching either Chickenfish or Marr965, and revisiting Arnnaria tomorrow.
Do you think I'm coaching? Really? Do you really think I'm trying to coach Arn (who is incidentally pretty much first on my scumlist)?
Wow.
Also, which three?
Tis what it looks like to me, and your response of "Who, me?" makes me feel it all the more.
The three in question are you, Chicken, and Arnnaria. It's a little more sketchy now that Arnnaria has claimed, but I have a suspicion that the claim is false.
Tis what it looks like to me, and your response of "Who, me?" makes me feel it all the more.
The three in question are you, Chicken, and Arnnaria. It's a little more sketchy now that Arnnaria has claimed, but I have a suspicion that the claim is false.
Just curious, how would you explain the fact that I had virtually no contact with Battlemaster under that theory?
As Chickenfish pointed out, it would be sort of 'doing her dirty work' for her. If you give a good enough reason, and says 'yep that was it', then KCC would be getting on the credit for scum hunting, when she didn't necessarily do any.
No, she wouldn't get credit for it, because she didn't provide it. She would get credit for making others think. That's decent credit.
Okay, what's the reasoning behind the 85%, and what's the reasoning behind that missing 15%?
85% - Decent amount of scumhunting and gut.
15% - I really dislike how readily he accepted me cozying up to him.
Manders: Chicken has a point. Why are you posting so much rubbish? I pulled literally 4 points that I feel could be even vaguely helpful from your mound of what is, quite frankly, tinsel and baubles. Either post with a higher content/rubbish ratio, or don't post.
All work and no play makes Manders a brutal ****ing ***** that you don't want to play with, I assure you.
Other than that, there are questions in there that needed responses.
This is the post that initially pinged my scumdar and prompted me asking for a town/scum list. You give 0 reasons for Chickenfish and Gamora being town, then go on to say KCC is leaning scum, yet you leave yourself an out. And not just any out, like, "I may" or "I might be persuaded."
No. You said, "I'll change my mind about this."
If you're going to place a vote on me for my diction, then I've lost all hope for you. Because I said what I was feeling and left out an out like "may"?
It's diction. I like being direct. I feel as if I posted "may" you'd be hitting me upside the head for waffling. Is there seriously no pleasing you Manders?
It's not diction, Arnnaria. It's insight into your mindset. By you saying what you did, you let loose to me that you really know KCC is town, but you're playing along.
I'm not responding to the rest of your comments Manders. Other people think it's rubbish, I think it's rubbish, I think you're pushing for a lynch on me for personal reasons.
What personal reasons?
Aside from the fact, I am SICK AND ****ING TIRED of being accused of doing things in-game for "personal reasons". If Iso wasn't the mod of this game, I'd be ****ing gone right now. Just because I'm a girl doesn't mean it's impossible for me to put any personal issues I may (not stating I do with you, Arnnaria, cause I really don't) have with someone.
when you can make a logically sound argument of what I've done that's been scummy, I'll respond to you. But if you're going to consistently attack my diction and noobishness, then I have nothing more to say.
I have. You are just biting on Chickenfish's bull**** because it gave you an easy out. That's lame. Play the game.
I must say that Mander's willingness to lynch me after I claimed a town role is definitely scummy. For all the people who are power roles out there, you know the reason why it's scummy. It's right in your role explanation which I re-read last night. I didn't catch it the first time, but on the readthrough it makes much more sense.
As for not revealing my true role, you can assume that it's not Doctor (because I've played a doctor before) and it's not a Cop (because I've seen a cop in action before). I know coming out will probably lead to a roleblock. But, I'm fine with that because it will be a wasted roleblock as I'm not the Doctor or Cop. I think claiming that I am a role is going to be beneficial to the town, which is why I did it. It's going to free up the other roles to do their work.
Dude, you hadn't claimed jack ****.
And, you know what? I'm done. You've claimed. I'll give you the time to prove yourself or die trying.
Manders, I'm sorry for coming off as crabby. When I say "personal reasons" I was referring to the modchat mafia that we played where I had a gut feeling against you and vendetta'd you the entire game. I thought you were still upset with that and that's why you were hunting me when I was playing the exact same playstyle for a game I played with you and the exact same playstyle for a game you moderated after Annorax left.
Until someone cc's you, I won't vote you. Especially since we have other scumspects on the table.
I will say this: If there is a cop, watcher, or tracker, don't claim right away today, but claim tomorrow. That way, we'll have a result to go off of, along with scum to lynch tomorrow. I'll also say this: If someone is a cop, it's very, very unlikely that Arnnaria is the tracker.
As for today, I'm up for lynching either Chickenfish or Marr965, and revisiting Arnnaria tomorrow.
Dude, please vote Chickenfish. I'm nowhere near as sure on Marr as I am him. Plus, he's begging for it.
Manders, I'm sorry for coming off as crabby. When I say "personal reasons" I was referring to the modchat mafia that we played where I had a gut feeling against you and vendetta'd you the entire game. I thought you were still upset with that and that's why you were hunting me when I was playing the exact same playstyle for a game I played with you and the exact same playstyle for a game you moderated after Annorax left.
How petty do you think I am? I barely even remember you being in Mod Mafia 3.
I'm trying to figure out how the bolded shows it's a misrep and I just can't. Has the list changed? Is the list as of a specific post number and you still have to read? If not I'm not seeing the misrep.
I have to say that doesn't worry me a whole lot, since with adding me to it, you have 2/3 of the people in the game as neutral-leaning-scum/leaning-scum/scum.
Suspicion is fine, but calling everyone at least leaning scum except for 2 or 3? I find it hard to accept that as mere suspicion.
And now I'm realizing I missed a slew of posts be back soon.
If I agree with what she says I have no problems barning it. If I agree with what someone else says I have no problems barning it. I like most of what Manders is saying this game, so I barn it. If she says stuff I don't like, I won't barn it.
Clear now?
Good catch.
I'd still like to hear from Manders herself on why she said Blah.
"Would anyone like a deadline, or are you all content with the pace of the game as it is?"
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Oh I get it now. My bad.
IMO, we're good right now. Plenty of discussion is happening. I won't object to one, but I don't think it necessary at all.
No. You didn't address the fact that you have made a decision based on Manders "vouching" for someone.
I'm comfortable with where we are at. I'd love a vote count when you get a chance though.
1. In the past, I have had trouble reading KCC. I don't know why, but I do.
2. This game is no different.
3. I think Manders is town.
4. I trust Manders judgement on KCC if I think she is town.
5. KCC has only done one scummy thing (not releasing reads) which she will do later. So I don't see any reason to have her as scum.
6. Thus, I have her as leaning town until I see something to make me think otherwise.
If you have a request, please do so now while I have my last pack. Lol.
I'VE BEEN WORKING ON A HUGE ****ING POST ALL DAY AND THIS POS COMPUTER AT WORK JUST CRAPPED OUT AND MADE ME LOSE IT ALL.
NOW YOU HAVE TO WAIT CAUSE I'M PISSED!!!
And, no, we don't need a deadline, Iso. The day's going fine, and the game just started. If it's 3 weeks out and we're still trying to decide what to do, then consider a deadline.
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Official Votecount:
Arnnaria (4): Zenjo, Wheat_Grinder, Foxlet, MandersHex
Gamora (1): EronTheRelentless
Chickenfish (2): KittyCupCake, Miracule
EronTheRelentless (2): Gamora, Gigas1
MandersHex (1): Chickenfish
KittyCupCake (1): Marr965
With 12 alive, it is 7 to lynch.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
This seems like a regular occurrence - have you considered saving your posts intermittently?
Or, you know, not actively lurking...
Honestly, the flaw is this request inherent, seeing as I'm essentially asking for my own lynch. However, I'm not going to stop helping town, so I'll get the list together.
A few things to keep in mind:
1) I have pretty clearly expressed opinions on almost every player in this game at some point or another, and they haven't changed much. As I previously mentioned, they've no doubt been diluted by my defense/aggression towards my accusers who I believe to be scum. As such, I will be quoting myself a lot and reiterating/asking people for their opinions.
2) I hope you know what you're in for, asking me for a detailed post...
Seeing as this will probably take a few hours, I have a point to make in the meantime.
The answers to my question about why Manders is seeming so town to everybody have been highly unsatisfactory. I've given specific examples of Manders twisting my words, using terrible logic in the process, and voting for the person who seems the most likely future-lynch candidate.
The responses have been "I think Manders has shown good logic", and not much more (please correct me if I've missed anything). I would appreciate it if those of you who are blindly following Manders specifically address the same parts of shoddy logic displayed by Manders that I have, and explain your interpretation as 'good logic'.
Manders has applied plenty of good logic to plenty of situations, but as scum that would clearly be her role. Anybody can argue a good case when there's a semblance of one there, but that doesn't at all outweigh her arguing a case the wasn't there. If you disagree with my interpretation of her posts, please detail why.
Turns out I've got a lot to say about the start of the game, and for everyone's sake I'm saying it more concisely than I had in my own posts.
Also, I do more with my Friday night's than focus exclusively on mafia posts...
Obviously I will, once again, you're not practicing what you preach.
So that's one really obvious bit of 'scumhunting'. Read Manders' posts carefully. There's actually not a whole lot of it (I address this in my list, so just wait)
Nice try at a pre-emptive defense, but it is twisting my words. I think you know that because you tried to deny it before I even pointed it out. Putting the quoted bit of my post in context for everyone:I was asking for an explanation of how you could possibly interpret the bad logic I spoke of as good logic.
Once again, you're taking my comment out of context.
My problem isn't her applying good logic to situations. Is town's goal to, and it's scum's job to appear to. However, she also applied what I consider to be very bad logic to a situation. It's in scum's interest to appear like they're applying good logic, and when this comes through as the falsehood that it is, that's worth noting. There's no reason town would apply faulty logic to try to frame somebody.
I've decided I'm going to post my list as lots of individual (spoilered) posts so people can read what I've done so far, but from this point on I'm not responding to anything new until I'm done.
There's been something a bit off about Manders from the beginning, starting with asking people whether their joke votes were serious or not (I voted based on Manders saying Batman had decreed she got in a fight...)
@Wheat_Grinder: I didn't realise somebody had picked up on her 'trying to appear busy' so early! What happened to this concern, as a lot of Manders' responses such as "Blah" fall under this category. Are you really satisfied that this isn't happening anymore?
Arnnaria was criticised for potentially setting up a get out of jail free card early - this reads as the same for me.
@Eron: Same question to you as above with WG. Haven't you noticed this has continued to happen?
There were several posts like this, and I must admit I was under this illusion too. However, upon reread, at the time that Arn said this (post 166), I can't really see any solid hunting from Manders. Can anybody find me examples of truly active scumhunting?
That's putting it a little lightly. What I should say is I implore you to go back and see that I'm right.
Post #186(far too long to quote again here). Have a look at the content in this post. There's almost none. Lots of "how does this make you feel", "that's scummy", "good catch", etc, but for such a big post there's hardly any actual information.
A highlight that I think that's worth pointing out though:
This = "I'm saying she's town and not justifying it. Any criticism of this is invalid".
Also read the Zenjo bit. Sucking up then coaching. Nothing else.
The last thing about this post that I think is worth noting is this:
(the bold italics are just me summarising for the sake of saving space)
Inconsistency in a single post...
= "GUYS, LOOK HOW HARD I'M POSTING, I"M HELPING TOO". It was long, congrats. Content please.
Manders' Post #236
My Post #284shows my feelings, and is some of the faulty logic and intentional misinterpretation I was asked to point out.
Also worth noting
Interesting change of view when it'll help get you a lynch.
Then there's a bunch of of short, "Blah" or otherwise unhelpful, pseudo-response type posts. It seems pointless quoting them and saying "and here's another one", they're there for all to see.
However,
Thought this was worth pointing out. It's looking like Arnnaria's a prime target for lynching, so attempt to subtly get on early to avoid detection. It doesn't matter what Arn flips, either - scum Manders just doesn't want to appear to vote at the wrong time.
Next up, Arnnaria!
Arnnaria is equal on my list with Manders, I just felt I had a lot more to say about Manders.
I suspect Manders for the reasons that everyone has expressed throughout the game (eg posting with very little content, wishy-washy logic with voting and being 'convinced' to remove votes after absoultely no persuasion, etc), as well as the way he has acted since my "please lynch me" post. I've pointed out the bizareness and inconsistency of him suddenly deciding Manders is worth looking at when I flip town, despite previously stating Manders is "definitely town" on multiple occasions.
Next on my list is Marr965 (formerly Battlemaster), then I think I can cover the rest in a single post.
I probably should have said "Then there continues to be", as I'd linked to one such example not long before in the post. Manders' posts are quite long, and have quotes within quotes, so I was avoiding relaying them again.
#186 and #236 are good examples I linked in my previous post.
This is a genuine concern to me, in an "outside the game" sense. The tone I tend to write my mafia posts in is that of an argumentative essay (obviously ignoring spelling, grammer, etc) - in that my primary focus is getting my point in there. If anybody has interpreted me as being rude towards them, or just being rude in general, I truly apologise.
Back to the game!
Savage typo by me, sorry. Megaposting while doing other stuff is less that ideal, and had Manders arguments on the brain. EBWOP: I suspect Arnnaria for the reasons that everyone has expressed throughout the game...
This is where I first point it out.
This is part of my frustration in being asked to post a detailed list. It's disappointing to know that a lot of my arguments have gone unnoticed the first time around. If others have been seeing me come across as rude, though, and that combined with the fact that a bunch of people think/thought of me as flailing scum, I can see why it's happened.
As for the Arn and Manders scum team - I've been convinced of that for quite some time now. At first it was because of thinking they had individual scum tells. However, since rereading the whole game it's easy to interpret Manders' criticisms of Arn as a combination of coaching and distancing (is this the same as bussing? I thought bussing referred more to when there were actual votes involved...), and Arn's flailings as experimenting which attitude towards Manders would get the most approval.
It's because I'm sold on a Manders + Arn team which leaves one more. I have some things to say about you, Gamora, and KCC, but really that's about it. The rest of it then essentially boils down to the implied statement that seeing as I believe the 3 scum lie in a certain set of players, I believe the rest are town.
Most of the other players haven't done much that stands out, so there's room for them to join the 'potential 3rd' list, but until then it's hard for me to comment and quote things that don't stand out.
This probably sounds like a cop out at the moment, but wait til I've actually made the post before you're dissatisfies
[spoiler=Battlemaster]
Talking of not wanting to lynch anyone too quickly in what's only post #71. Potentially an attempt to subliminally accept non-committal from him, but either way it's a bit off.
Funnily this is in reference to KCC's voting me, which I also opposed.
However, this to me reads as saying the right thing but without justification. No argument about why it would hurt the jam, no acknowledgement and rebuttal of KCC's explanation and Manders', just "hurting town is bad".
I think a bunch of us initially misinterpreted the ambiguity as "However, seeing as we are now nearing the end...". Even after the clarification that it should be read with the meaning "However when we begin to near the end of the day..." though, I still don't like it. No mention of KCC saying she'd eventually share, or my comments that it wasn't valid for KCC to do so, or anything else that had already happened in this discussion that he's apparently participating in.
This is the one that struck all of us, I think. The phrasing of "big scum tell" is so accusatory about a situation that hadn't yet happened. Given that Arn is scum, overdoing the bussing when an opportunity arose?
...or, as others pointed out, coaching. I didn't pick up on this, but once it's pointed out it's hard not to see!
Again seems like he's trying too hard to be town.
One non-scum and one scum to make it not look blatantly like bussing? (I know this reads as though I don't think KCC's scum, but in the scenario that Battlemaster's scum and there's only 3 scum, it makes KCC town).
Either way, deep in the game and not much info (hard to know whether this should be ignored though, seeing as he subbed out due to being too busy..)
[/spoiler]
Now, onto my thoughts on you Marr.
[spoiler=Marr965]I admit my brain read everything you posted as scummy from the first post, seeing as you took over from Battlemaster, but even since rereading this several times for the sake of this list, I still have my doubts about you.
How could you even entertain the idea of subbing into a game and voting without posting some sort of list. Of course we want a list - stop being friendly! (that last bit is what my already skeptical brain said to me)
Eron - I think he's pretty solidly town in everyone's mind, no issue with this part of your post.
Manders - it's much, much less of a thing. In fact it's almost nothing, and it's the one thing you'd been hanging onto as your pro-Manders argument in the face of all my recent accusations towards her. With a you/Manders/Arn scum team, you taking this position makes a lot of sense.
Wheat - Why weren't you certain? In what may as well be your first post of the game, that's what you gave us? You criticised my post on Manders for not quoting things that you remembered - but here you don't quote anything for any sort of justification.
Gigas and Mirac - makes sense at that point, no issue
Chicken - the 'stab us in the back' thing didn't really make sense, but I figured it was just an awkward turn of phrase by you. I wished I'd picked you up on it earlier - if it's not too late I'd like to ask you what you were implying here. To me it sounds like you're trying to invoke the image "if he convinces you he can be trusted, it doesn't mean he can" in people's minds.
Zenjo - agree on the vibe, not on the reason
Gamora - agree
Arn and Kitty - the order you have these two in seems backwards to me. As far as I can see you make a better case against Arn than you do Kitty (if you account for the fact that you neglect to mention Kitty's defense anywhere), but you rank Kitty the scummiest? Avoiding the obvious bus when Arn flips town?
Also, you say Wheat made a good point in calling out Kitty early, but say you're not so sure about him. Manders does the same with a much less insightful call-out of Arn, and that ranks her as town?
As for the last bit - there was nothing even close to a wagon forming, and you'd said in your previous post that you were going to vote. Why not just vote for KCC who feels like the scummiest player to you, other than to avoid some heat the general population were probably aiming at Battlemaster?
Same get-out-of-jail-free card that Arn applied for...
Spotlight too close for comfort?
Would've been good to see Battlemaster on there, then
You've been accepted by the masses, so now it's time to vote. Also, who were you referring to when you said 'this guy'?
You are guilty of both the crimes you're accusing Wheat_Grinder of here (refer my post 330 for me pointing out times you've missed my stuff, and my post 326 for you twisting my words).
Another misinterpretation of somebody's words, they correct you, and you don't address the issue or them any further. Furthermore, it's Eron who you complimented for all his scum hunting during a time which included him being against lists.
As for your more recent posts, I've already addressed them soon after (look up 2 or 3 posts and you're there)[/spoiler]
While there's a lot of what appear to be questions after me quoting you, don't feel obliged to answer them. I'd greatly appreciate it if you could, but they're more accurately an expression of something that was niggling at me from the back of my mind while I read the posts.
At this stage I'm fairly confident that the scum team is Manders, Arn, Marr, but willing to be proven wrong on the Marr front.
Alright, let's see if I can finish this thing
[/spoiler]
Another one who doesn't need much elaboration. Everyone has been in agreement that he was shaky in his reasoning, and worded some things pretty shockingly. I'd not at all be surprised if he turned out to be Manders/Arn's number 3, and the only reason he's not number 3 at the moment is honestly probably just because he's not fresh in my mind.
Iso: As far as I can see it's over 3 days since Gamora's shown activity - has he been modprodded?
Much closer to neutral than I ever thought she'd get. This argument is very smooth - if you're scum I'll be impressed (trust me - I'm open to being impressed :p). As much as I hate to admit it, I think there was a point at around the time of KCC initially explaining her original 'tell' that I was frustrated with the state of the game. I think the argument I've just quoted is better than the first explanation she gave, but also I think there was element of OMGUS to my reactionary vote for KCC.
KCC is still very much on my radar, but through no particular action of her own I now think it makes less sense that she's scum (namely, my top 3 are still in the game, so naturally I'm less likely to believe KCC is scum).
The discussion about the lack of explanation for the vote is, I think, a good conversation about strategy to have outside of this game, because I think you really did just draw attention to yourself. You also achieved your goal of putting me under a bunch of pressure (although my big mouth probably gets a lot of that credit too), but at what cost?
At the start of the game it was frustrating me that Manders was blindly willing to believe KCC was town, but I had the wrong end of it. Reading back with my top 3 in mind as scum, I can see it as an emotional appeal from Manders to get her friend KCC on board as a "Manders is town" believer, not just blindness or buddying.
As such, Kitty has been downgraded in my mind to 'neural leaning-scum', with the lean because the validity RVS strategy is still a huge question in my mind.
As for everyone else, they haven't done anything nearly as off as the people I've previously mentioned, so naturally that lands them in my town basket. In a vacuum, some would be in my neutral basket, some neutral-leaning town, some town. So, pretending that this is a vacuum, it looks like this:
Wheat_Grinder - Seems to have generally good intentions with the questions being asked/comments being made. One post I don't like is:I'm sure you know by now how I feel about 3. On the front of 4 though, I feel like this is a bit of a lax, potentially dangerous approach to this game. This pings me a bit, so it brings into question your other stuff, unfortunately.
Also, @Wheat_Grinder, how do you feel about the case I've made against Manders, and how does that influence your opinion of KCC?
Zenjo - I gave him some 'early' (in terms of his first post) heat about not making strong reads, and claiming others as his own. Has since picked up his game, and I'm happy to believe that it was because he felt under pressure to contribute, and was posting from notes written as he saw things rather than trying to remember everything then posting.
Gigas1 - assuming the search function is working properly, has posted 4 times all up, and one was to explain that he wouldn't be posting for a bit. Dead neutral, for obvious reasons. (PS. congrats on the scholarship).
Miracule and Foxlet - Posting more recently, and no issues with the stuff they've posted. They've expressed concerns in a logical, concise manner and evaluated responses appropriately.
Eron - still top of my town list, and I think top of everyone's town list. Hasn't given anything other than good vibes since real discussion started.
Aaaaaaaaand there it is.
If there's anybody who's not reading absolutely every bit of these long posts, I recommend at least opening up the spoiler tags and searching your name - there may be stuff pertaining to you around the place.
After all that analysis, do you still think the best possible course of action is for us to lynch you day one?
And, after all that analysis, does it give you any insight on who is voting for who for what reasons?
I've commented on it before. If you're scum you're retaliating on Manders and that just solidifies both reads. If you're town you're frustrated that she's on your wagon and vocal about it and so you're retaliating anyway because in your mind she's trying to mislynch you. I suspect you're scum, but I'm letting you know for future games in case it's the second. Either way, I don't agree with your case much, and it doesn't influence my read on KCC.
I'll say one last thing on KCC, though. Even though my read is influenced by Manders, I have pretty strong scum reads on three different people. So far I have had little reason to suspect KCC, and a ton of reason to suspect the other three. I see no reason, today at least, to revisit that read. Tomorrow or day 3, I certainly will.
Why have you yet to respond to the underlined portion? You know, the part that pinged my scumdar in the first place?
Then why does that tell you he's town?
It is the very definition of naive, Arnnaria. Ask anyone that's played with me before. Hell, PM the mod and ask him as he knows me better than anyone here! I scumhunt regardless of alignment. So calling me town and stating no reason why other than "she's scumhunting" is naive. Why are you arguing with me over this?
Votes don't mean ****. Did you think this would appease me?
Is that you admitting it was bad or repeating what I said?
Earlier you said "Duly noted" meant you didn't necessarily agree, but you concede the point. Does that definition apply here?
If you think I expect everyone to scumhunt as effectively as I do, you misunderstand me completely.
Who vouched for her, other than me?
So you're admitting that you voted for him because I did? Loverly.
Ah, I see. Forgot about that. Thanks.
Mkay. Ask KCC about the word "interesting".
Insisting is a bit less severe than demanding, imo.
I don't know, is it?
(If you haven't figured it out yet, I'm not going to give you the answer here. I want to see your work.)
If it becomes relevant, I will. As of now, just an observation. I'm 85% sure you're town.
I will also explain it to you when the game is over if you remind me, in an attempt to help you improve your game.
Why would it have been bad for me to make guesses as to why KCC voted for Chickenfish?
Fair 'nuff.
fencesitting =/= not giving their own opinions, btw. fence-sitting = taking a little from column A and a little from column B on any particular issue.
For clarification: was this part supposed to have been in quotes, meaning written by Arnnaria? Or, if you wrote it, what does it mean?
That is an excellent question.
Just say what's in your heart. This is probably what's been bothering me about your posts. They feel fake, cause they are, cause you've been very careful about what you post. The feeling behind the posts reads as town, but the posts give me blechity feelings.
Precisely, and for him to come back so defensively (she's trying to trap me!!) was just terrible.
Gotcha.
Hmm, it looks weird.
You didn't vote for Chickenfish, but I'm over it. Arnnaria needs to be lynched.
Lame
Breadcrumb? I feel like I just got pegged upside the head with a whole loaf!
Why wouldn't you ask the mod?
I won't, but only because the last guy I tried to mentor got left in the dust.
However, you have Ecophagy now. ECOPHAGY. One of the greatest players on this site. So this BS statement of yours reads as blatant ass-kissing. It won't work.
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As Chickenfish pointed out, it would be sort of 'doing her dirty work' for her. If you give a good enough reason, and says 'yep that was it', then KCC would be getting on the credit for scum hunting, when she didn't necessarily do any.
And as we've seen from some of these people's lists, 'scum hunting' makes them think you're town. So if KCC did that, it would basically be like slipping onto people's town list without having done anything at all.
At this stage in the game however, I'm ready to admit that KCC is town.
Yeah... it was a Arn quote fail (still getting used to trying to multi quote too). Thats what I get for not triple checking before I posted everything
Anyway, this is the day I work until late, but I have a lot of down time between the clients. I work on the backlog (I notice the whole slew of info Chicken put out) and try to keep updated.
I wanted to remind everyone V/LA starting tomorrow until the 21st. I'll be traveling a good part of tomorrow, but I might be able to make a few small phone posts if I'm lucky.
No. You said, "I'll change my mind about this."
If you're going to place a vote on me for my diction, then I've lost all hope for you. Because I said what I was feeling and left out an out like "may"?
It's diction. I like being direct. I feel as if I posted "may" you'd be hitting me upside the head for waffling. Is there seriously no pleasing you Manders?
I'm not responding to the rest of your comments Manders. Other people think it's rubbish, I think it's rubbish, I think you're pushing for a lynch on me for personal reasons.
What those reasons are, I do not understand, but when you can make a logically sound argument of what I've done that's been scummy, I'll respond to you. But if you're going to consistently attack my diction and noobishness, then I have nothing more to say.
As for not revealing my true role, you can assume that it's not Doctor (because I've played a doctor before) and it's not a Cop (because I've seen a cop in action before). I know coming out will probably lead to a roleblock. But, I'm fine with that because it will be a wasted roleblock as I'm not the Doctor or Cop. I think claiming that I am a role is going to be beneficial to the town, which is why I did it. It's going to free up the other roles to do their work.
You have 2 people as scum. So...what?
No, I would not give a rat's ass if someone else had seen the same thing she saw and said it before she did. In fact, that would look good on them. Now, if the game continues and this occurs with all her reads, then we have a problem.
Just because I don't comment on someone doesn't mean I'm not watching them. Everyone gets scrutinized, but only those I focus on are done publicly. I'm not the only person that plays this way.
It's called having an ongoing discussion. Do you have a problem with me wanting to complete a discussion when the resolution to what started the discussion has already occurred? If so, find another game.
When did I say anything about you disliking that the vote was on you? Quote it.
I don't have time to go find all the posts you've made (which I've already quoted and showed) that show you're worried about your image.
That's what I get for trying to do this **** in between calls.
I was talking about the dichotomy you set up with yourself and KCC.
And have no clue what you're talking about here.
Asking questions is scumhunting, so get the **** off my back.
So? Yeah, I think it's acceptable. I also think anyone who doesn't is kinda silly. I'm entitled to those opinions.
That's why she shouldn't care!!
You're obtuse.
Wow, so it means nothing? I said nowhere near as worthy (meaning still worthy) but cool. You don't wanna take it from me? ASK ANY MOTHER ****ER IN THIS FORUM WHO'S BEEN HERE ANY AMOUNT OF TIME.
And stop ****ing condescending me.
If you expect me to never make mistakes, you're ridiculous.
lol @ defeatism. Beautiful.
Too bad we're lynching Arnnaria today. You waited too long.
Also, just because people don't agree with your statements/theories, doesn't mean they're ignoring them.
That must be what you're doing. Me, I was having trouble deciding between you and Arnnaria. Now, I know that either is an excellent choice.
Add to that the fact that I've been the first (or at the most 2nd) person on every wagon I've been on (read: you or Arnnaria) and you're full of it.
Wait, wait, wait. You just said this!
Neither of them have responded to your statements, so why did you make this post?
Do you know what "fearmongering" means? If you did, you'd know that's exactly what you did with that post. "Ooh, better watch out, I have an awesome role!"
LOL I was town from the get go until now. That's funny.
I am pretty flipping hard to lynch when I'm town. I am a popular scum NK choice, though.
Why?
This guy makes sense.
That's exactly what it was.
Why are you sorry?
Absolutely.
trufax
Yeah it does. Terrible.
Because I'm cute.
You sure were quick to accept being Seppel V.2, though. Why was that?
When is the last time Gamora posted?
@ Batman: Prod, please?
Good luck with that endeavor.
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Why is everyone letting her get away with this?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Mar, honestly, if Manders pulled one or two scummy things from what I say and then conceded that I was at least faking town for the other 50% (let's be generous), maybe I could see her reasoning.
But.
Every.
Single.
Line.
Of.
Every.
Single.
Post.
Is scummy in her eyes. She's dug a hole so deep for me, that everything I'm trying to say in my defense is a scum tell. She has not conceded once on one idea or thought that I've had has been "good for the town."
If I was scum, wouldn't I be hiding better? I have a mentor, wouldn't he be helping me? But no, Manders is shooting at every single line in some of my posts! People who play scum aren't scummy 100% of the time. Do you really think I'm this bad at the game?
I only see it when it's obvious. Like Burst in whichever game he tried to say he was a commuter.
Yeah. I've seen scum volunteer to be lynched before. DigicoolDad in Basic 53 comes to mind.
This just makes it worse and worse for you.
Admit connotes that you knew she was town to begin with. (IE you are scum, because only scum know that for sure)
And you accuse me of not reading everything in a post.
Have fun!
Except you haven't claimed the actual role, so how do we know for sure that you're telling the truth? Saying you're a PR isn't a full shield you know.
Reads to me like confident scum.
Because she just explained why:
Tracker
I keep seeing posts like these and it keeps hammering home you three as the scumteam.
First bolded: WIFOM
Second bolded: You yourself have said so numerous times by saying you're a noob! You can't have both sides of the street.
Where's the rest of it then?
You want the name too?
Town Tracker (Every night I can pick a player. I get to see who they targeted if anyone that night. I didn't understand the role at first, but it seems similar to a Cop. But with bad consequences because if I target a town, and the town targets a scum, I might think that the town is scum and the scum is town.)
I just gave up cigarettes 23.5 hours ago. That accounts for the change in tone of my posts over the time period. I feel like I'm just fighting to stay alive.
While I ignored your childness comment, you're ignoring my claim.
Unvote, vote Marr965
Until someone cc's you, I won't vote you. Especially since we have other scumspects on the table.
I will say this: If there is a cop, watcher, or tracker, don't claim right away today, but claim tomorrow. That way, we'll have a result to go off of, along with scum to lynch tomorrow. I'll also say this: If someone is a cop, it's very, very unlikely that Arnnaria is the tracker.
As for today, I'm up for lynching either Chickenfish or Marr965, and revisiting Arnnaria tomorrow.
Tis what it looks like to me, and your response of "Who, me?" makes me feel it all the more.
The three in question are you, Chicken, and Arnnaria. It's a little more sketchy now that Arnnaria has claimed, but I have a suspicion that the claim is false.
Just curious, how would you explain the fact that I had virtually no contact with Battlemaster under that theory?
Battlemaster =/= Marr. While Marr looks to be coaching, Battlemaster might not have that playstyle himself.
Though I seem to remember saying something about BM coaching...I'll look for it later.
Bam, called it.
Also, my post 85 called BM out for sounding anxious towards you.
So yeah.
Interesting coincidence.
Actively lurking? You are out of your ****ing mind.
Who are you talking to?
I've seen scum do it before, too.
No, she wouldn't get credit for it, because she didn't provide it. She would get credit for making others think. That's decent credit.
*clears throat*
85% - Decent amount of scumhunting and gut.
15% - I really dislike how readily he accepted me cozying up to him.
All work and no play makes Manders a brutal ****ing ***** that you don't want to play with, I assure you.
Other than that, there are questions in there that needed responses.
It's not diction, Arnnaria. It's insight into your mindset. By you saying what you did, you let loose to me that you really know KCC is town, but you're playing along.
What personal reasons?
Aside from the fact, I am SICK AND ****ING TIRED of being accused of doing things in-game for "personal reasons". If Iso wasn't the mod of this game, I'd be ****ing gone right now. Just because I'm a girl doesn't mean it's impossible for me to put any personal issues I may (not stating I do with you, Arnnaria, cause I really don't) have with someone.
I have. You are just biting on Chickenfish's bull**** because it gave you an easy out. That's lame. Play the game.
Dude, you hadn't claimed jack ****.
And, you know what? I'm done. You've claimed. I'll give you the time to prove yourself or die trying.
Unvote Vote: Chickenfish
Exactly.
26 more minutes until I get off, then I'm out til Sunday evening.
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Dude, please vote Chickenfish. I'm nowhere near as sure on Marr as I am him. Plus, he's begging for it.
What's interesting about it?
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How petty do you think I am? I barely even remember you being in Mod Mafia 3.
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