I don't feel that because someone made bad/not enough reads we should be getting the mob together.
Wow, again with the fear-mongering. What mob? I`ll have to look to make sure but I don`t think anyone even has more than 2 votes. You make it seem like someone could get lynched any second now. If anything, I think a bandwagon could do us some good. It would at least get people to start stating some serious opinions and taking stances. I really don`t like how you seem to be trying to hinder the conversation.
Wow, again with the fear-mongering. What mob? I`ll have to look to make sure but I don`t think anyone even has more than 2 votes. You make it seem like someone could get lynched any second now. If anything, I think a bandwagon could do us some good. It would at least get people to start stating some serious opinions and taking stances. I really don`t like how you seem to be trying to hinder the conversation.
Vote EronTheRelentless
I am not, in any way, "hindering" discussion. In fact, I think at several points I have been attempting to move it along.
I simply stated that I don't like lists this early and have stated multiple reasons for that. If you think they provide so much benefit (considering 2 people STILL haven't posted), why have you not provided one to the group?
Wow, again with the fear-mongering. What mob? I`ll have to look to make sure but I don`t think anyone even has more than 2 votes. You make it seem like someone could get lynched any second now. If anything, I think a bandwagon could do us some good. It would at least get people to start stating some serious opinions and taking stances. I really don`t like how you seem to be trying to hinder the conversation.
Vote EronTheRelentless
Are you serious? Unless I'm missing something this is an insane overreaction, and totally out of character from what you've been doing previously...
While I'm not particularly impressed with Manders' or KCC's conduct, this is just reaching as far as I can see. Unvote
Vote: Gamora
I am not, in any way, "hindering" discussion. In fact, I think at several points I have been attempting to move it along.
I simply stated that I don't like lists this early and have stated multiple reasons for that. If you think they provide so much benefit (considering 2 people STILL haven't posted), why have you not provided one to the group?
I think it`s a bit of a contradiction for you to say that you`re not hindering discussion while also saying that you don`t want people to make lists. The lists are a form of discussion in themselves. Just look at the discussion between us right now. All started because of a couple of lists.
The lists are a valid form of discussion but so far I`ve been preferring more direct arguments with people. If I feel it necessary to make a list then I won`t hesitate to make one.
The idea behind me posting my list was to promote discussion.
I did not add a much if my own reasons at the time because as I think I mentioned before, it's early in the game for anything that really stands out as obv scum to me.
Having said that, I'll post tomorrow with some of my thoughts behind who is on my list. It's late fer me and I'd rather be able to think with a clear head
Also, all I'm saying is [I]I[\I] think it's too early for lists.
If you all want to start throwing them out there, more power to you.
I straight up said go for it. I just can't see them being well informed at this point. Really it's the same reason you just gave for not posting one. Discussion is better right now.
So, I think it's too early and would rather have a discussion while you prefer discussion ATM as well, yet you have me pegged as scum for it because I typed it out?
Are you serious? Unless I'm missing something this is an insane overreaction, and totally out of character from what you've been doing previously...
While I'm not particularly impressed with Manders' or KCC's conduct, this is just reaching as far as I can see. Unvote
Vote: Gamora
Could we have a vote count please?
I`m probably somewhat biased as my own character is concerned but seeing as my first vote was for someone I thought was trying to hide from discussion and my second was for someone I thought was trying to hinder it, I feel I`ve been pretty consistant so far.
On my read through what had happened since I last looked, this was the other comment that bugged me - didn't even realise it was the same person until I went to make all my notes. Gamora has said that upon reflection, in context it definitely seems like more of a null tell. Your response, however, says that if Arnnaria plays the way he has claimed to usually play in what was a discussion about play styles, then it's a big scum tell. This seems pretty drastic to me.
FoS: Battlemaster
Could you please elaborate on why it's such a big scum tell?
If Arnarria he uses this quote as an excuse later on to sit back later not contribute much to the group or as an excuse to ride the bandwagon/hammer people. It would be a good indication that he was scum. If he does not I don’t really read it as a scum tell.
I hoped my comment would also cause Arnarria to not fence sit the rest of the game.
I would also like for you to explain this more. If I`m reading this right it seems like you`re implying that Arnarria and I are attached at the hip now. Like if he`s scum then so am I. It seems like a pretty big leap to make.
I don’t think I made any correlation to that.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Dark Confident: Heh isn't that (Panoptic Mirror) banned? What you do mean you imprint Timewarp? i imprint my foot on your face!
I`m probably somewhat biased as my own character is concerned but seeing as my first vote was for someone I thought was trying to hide from discussion and my second was for someone I thought was trying to hinder it, I feel I`ve been pretty consistant so far.
Both of which appear to be overreactions and attempts to create bandwagons. You only abandonded the first one after no one else hopped on with you and you stated that a bandwagon now would be good for business.
If creating a wagon drives to a mislynch how does that benefit us?
I`m probably somewhat biased as my own character is concerned but seeing as my first vote was for someone I thought was trying to hide from discussion and my second was for someone I thought was trying to hinder it, I feel I`ve been pretty consistant so far.
Yeah, sorry, didn't explain myself very well either.
You have appeared quite cool and logical up until this point, but the 'logic' you applied was a huge stretch. I really don't see Eron's post as suspicious.
While I agree that lists can be an effective way to promote discussion, all Eron said is that he understands why people may not post them, and that he didn't have enough info to be able to post one. Hardly suspicious.
I agree, but as I've pointed out previously, you then risk somebody else seeing precisely what you did, and you just saying "Hey, he/she" saw it too, and then it looks like you are just using somebody else's argument.
That's a risk I'm willing to take to gather info, especially since I wouldn't really care if that happened anyway.
I hoped my comment would also cause Arnarria to not fence sit the rest of the game.
Just so you know, this is a terrible reason to do things in this game. You do not want to help potential scum to avoid making scum tells. -When you have a situation like this, where you see one set of possible actions as being scummy, you shouldn't give that player hints on what not to do; on the contrary, you should either wait and watch, or actively try to draw out that behavior. -Because it becomes much harder to catch scum if you are coaching them on how to behave.
That's a risk I'm willing to take to gather info, especially since I wouldn't really care if that happened anyway.
You don't care if people begin to suspect you're scum. If your motivation is truly creating discussion for information, why would you not care if it became clouded by people thinking you're scum?
Well, fwiw I have you leaning town and KCC leaning scum.
(along with a few other mentions of getting these vibes), but I wouldn't be surprised if there are others who've decided it has to be one way or the other.
Just so you know, this is a terrible reason to do things in this game. You do not want to help potential scum to avoid making scum tells. -When you have a situation like this, where you see one set of possible actions as being scummy, you shouldn't give that player hints on what not to do; on the contrary, you should either wait and watch, or actively try to draw out that behavior. -Because it becomes much harder to catch scum if you are coaching them on how to behave.
While this is true in general, in the specific case of fence-sitting and/or lurking I disagree. If he is a truly indecisive player and/or scum, it's much better to encourage posting so that we can actually get a tell rather than what is potentially the null tell of a new player not wanting to commit to something and thus looking like scum.
Just trying to figure out what's going on in your mind here. You think Manders is upset that you think I'm town and KCC is scum, upset enough to vote for you, but you think Manders is definitely town? I can't get my head around that logic...
What makes you think Manders is definitely town? That's pretty confident!
Given that Manders is 'definitely town', why would she vote for you just because she disagrees with your perception of people?
I think Manders is town because she's been actively scum-hunting since RVS. However, without more elucidation from Manders on why she is actually voting for me, further comments will not be necessary because the reason I think she voted for me has already been confirmed as not being true by Manders herself.
The interactions between Gamora and Arnnaria are starting to scare me.
Gamora - post 91 - It looks as if he is trying to start a wagon to lynch Arnnaria
Arnnaria - post 111 - Uses Gamora's sudden change of heart as a town tell because a scum would have pushed harder for a mislynch
I don't think a scum would've pushed harder at that point because it was
clear that no one agreed with Gamora.
Gamora - post 149 - Reads the post wrong and then is quite defensive about
him being the same alignment as Arnarria
Gamora - post 151 - Says a bandwagon could be a good idea? Isn't a bandwagon people jumping on without good reason except that everyone else is also jumping on?
Arnnaria - post 167 - Again tries to reinforce the idea that Gamora could have been successful in mislynching someone and uses that as a town tell
What concerns me most is that I don't think Gamora could have caused a mislynch if he pushed harder. Which makes Arnnaria's town tell on Gamora pointless.
Possible scum team?
Vote:Gamora
FoS:Arnnaria
I'm also a little bit concerned about Chickenfish. His posts are very long, which could be either a town or scum tell. For now I have him as neutral but I'm watching carefully.
Not here....Right now I'm still learning...still re-reading to look for anything I missed and taking notes.
Currently MY suspects list is as follows:
Battle
Kitty
Chicken
Eron
Now for my promised thoughts, such as they are. I should also add, this is my FOS list, everyone else is currently either neutral or leaning town because I can't get a good read, etc. All that is obviously subject to change.
Battlemaster - has been quick to cause disruption, in the name of discussion an example. I find there are better ways to have discussions than finger pointing.
ErontheRelentless - similar to Battlemaster, most of their posts have been pushy and "aggressive", forcing people into defensive mode. While it DOES promote discussion, again, there are better ways of doing it. Unless I've been to tired to notice, I also haven't noticed any opinions of his own at this time.
Kitty and Chicken - Lumping these two together, because I'm on the fence about both of them. I need to go back and read (again) all their posts. There were a few, to me very awkwardly worded sentences that both of them made.....Chicken...it could just be that he was just so wordy, and already on the defensive.....In Kitty's defense, it's harder to say (since they haven't posted as much). Or they could be playing off one another. I don't have enough evidence at either of them at the moment to be comfortable with a lynch or pursuing a bus on them.
I think Manders is town because she's been actively scum-hunting since RVS. However, without more elucidation from Manders on why she is actually voting for me, further comments will not be necessary because the reason I think she voted for me has already been confirmed as not being true by Manders herself.
Where did Manders confirm her reasoning as not being true?
I'm going with: you have Kitty in your name and he has Fish in his and it was a joke vote.
A close second to that is deflecting conversation.
Gut reaction to this is that Eron is scum. The second sentence seems awful; he is deflecting conversation to himself by encouraging people to figure out why he voted? Doesn't seem right to me.
So how does everyone feel about the fact that we have at least two players who have said nothing besides their orginal /confirmation post? Miracule being one. I'm on my phone so flipping to pull the names is a little difficult ATM.
Zenjo being the other with Gigas1 only commenting once.
It's still early in the game, have a little patience. But, more importantly, how do YOU feel about it? Do you think it's indicative of their alignment, a good distraction from scum hunting, or a way to make it look like you're doing more than you actually are? (In case it isn't obvious yet, I think Eron is scum. More reasons to follow)
I fence sit, I DO NOT lurk. In all the games I've played I've been one of the most vocal posters throughout the game. Lurking implies that I sit on my haunches waiting for the opportune time to make a post. In fact, I post often and frequently. This is why I don't take notes, because if I have something in my head or an idea pops out, I express it publically.
If I was lurking I wouldn't be responding to all your queries. But look at this game so far. Every time someone has asked me to clarify or do something I've done it right away.
Tl;dr - fence sitting=\= lurking
So you post a lot to not really say anything at all about your leads? That's called active lurking, and it is barely better than regular lurking. In fact, it can be worse because it's harder to notice, and because people that lurk often make big posts when they do post (like this one).
We may be betting ahead of ourselves with list making when we have two folks that haven't made a post/comment yet.
Why are you so hung up on that? You can't make reads on the people that are posting? Also, notice the reason here: We shouldn't make reads because 2 people haven't commented.
I must agree that it is too early for lists. It would create discussion, but would also leave out some people. Especially since some of those left out people haven't posted much at all.
If you mean it would leave some people out when making the lists...So what? It lets everyone see what other people's reads are, even if there are a few holes in the lists.
Also, all I'm saying is [I]I[\I] think it's too early for lists.
If you all want to start throwing them out there, more power to you.
Also have a bad gut read on this post. If you think people shouldn't make scum lists, then why say that they can go ahead and do it anyway? Don't you want people to listen to your opinions?
Then let's discuss. Ask about people you are curious about. But the lists we have seen so far have provided no detail and gotten someone insta-voted because he didn't have enough reasoning.
Who got insta-voted because of not enough reasoning? I'm pretty sure Manders voted because of bad/scummy reasoning, not a lack of it. And those lists have also created quite a lot of discussion, which is a good thing.
I don't feel that because someone made bad/not enough reads we should be getting the mob together.
Well then what should somebody be lynched for? I think giving poor reasons for thinking somebody is scum is a perfectly cromulent reason to vote/lynch somebody.
I am not, in any way, "hindering" discussion. In fact, I think at several points I have been attempting to move it along.
Lists are discussion. They state your views in a convenient way, and your reasons for thinking so, and allow everyone to see where you stand on everybody so you can't suddenly change your views. What type of discussion were you wanting?
I simply stated that I don't like lists this early and have stated multiple reasons for that. If you think they provide so much benefit (considering 2 people STILL haven't posted), why have you not provided one to the group?
Again, why are you so focused on the two people that haven't been posting? Talking about them all the time won't make them post any sooner, and will just distract from more important issues.
I straight up said go for it. I just can't see them being well informed at this point. Really it's the same reason you just gave for not posting one. Discussion is better right now.
Again, what type of discussion do you want? One about why Battlemaster is scummy? Well, if you would check Arnnaria's recent list, you could see a reason why. Now, if you disagree with it, make a comment about it, and talk about why that is.
Both of which appear to be overreactions and attempts to create bandwagons. You only abandonded the first one after no one else hopped on with you and you stated that a bandwagon now would be good for business.
If creating a wagon drives to a mislynch how does that benefit us?
Well, mislynches allow us to analyze a whole lot of stuff. Who was on the wagon, who defended who, who got on when for what reasons, etc. Obviously, a scum lynch is better, but getting a mislynch isn't the end of the world.
So, without further ado, I will go ahead and Vote: EronTheRelentless.
OOC: it's my kids B-day today so I may not get a chance for a full response.
Quick hits:
Gigas point 1: I have not voted.
Gigas point 2: I whole heartedly agree it's early in the game. I was merely trying to get everyone talking, hence sending it to everyone. When Zenjo replied very quickly after that post I initially thought it was scummy but he has had some great insights so far and his language feels like he is actively trying to find scum.
Gigas point 3: Lists at the stage of the game when I mentioned being against them would have been ill informed. That's my opinion. At no point did I say we shouldn't be making reads on people. That's blatent misrep.
Point 4: Of course I would like people to listen. However, if that's how folks want to express who they feel is scummy and they don't see any downside then that's gret.
Next: Lists are not discussion. Lists are a couple of bullet points. They may drive discussion, but they haven't. The majority of the discussion so far has been based around regular conversations and questioning.
All in all, my position is that I didn't have enough info to put a list out. I'm also not an advocate of a mislynch simply to gather information which apparently you and Gamora are. I'd rather start off with a scum hanging after we have heard from everyone.
If I have indeed hindered conversation, than for that I apologize, but i'm not going to sit on my opinons because I may sound like scum.
Before I go any further I just want to make sure I`m not totally misusing the term "bandwagon". I`m under the impression that a badwagon just refers to a situation where multiple people are expressing suspicion on someone. Isn`t every lynch the result of a bandwagon, regardless of wheather it was a mislynch or not?
Before I go any further I just want to make sure I`m not totally misusing the term "bandwagon". I`m under the impression that a badwagon just refers to a situation where multiple people are expressing suspicion on someone. Isn`t every lynch the result of a bandwagon, regardless of wheather it was a mislynch or not?
Wagon: short for bandwagon, is used to indicate the list of votes that accumulate after a player’s name as they are voted closer and closer to a lynch.Courtesy of Here
IMO, in theory yes people jump wagons to get lynches through on a frequent basis...I believe the general IDEA behind it is "Hey everyone I think Manders is Scum, Vote Manders...because of XYZ reasons" (some of which sound like total baloney I might add) and everyone then jumps on and says hey, you know you are right "jumps on".
It's basically a Mob mentality voting, and twisting others words against them.
Wagon: short for bandwagon, is used to indicate the list of votes that accumulate after a player’s name as they are voted closer and closer to a lynch.Courtesy of Here
IMO, in theory yes people jump wagons to get lynches through on a frequent basis...I believe the general IDEA behind it is "Hey everyone I think Manders is Scum, Vote Manders...because of XYZ reasons" (some of which sound like total baloney I might add) and everyone then jumps on and says hey, you know you are right "jumps on".
It's basically a Mob mentality voting, and twisting others words against them.
From what I understand this scenario looks more like like an example of "barning". Where you have people jumping on a bandwagon without giving an solid reasons of their own.
A bandwagon certainly can result in a mislynch (although it`s also likely it that won`t result in a lynch at all), I`m was more reffering to the process of the bandwagon itself rather than the possible lynch resulting from it.
With a bandwagon out there you force people to take a side. You`re either on or off. Ideally this would give scum less wiggle room and force them into a concrete opinion that we can refer back to for the rest of the game.
Gigas point 2: I whole heartedly agree it's early in the game. I was merely trying to get everyone talking, hence sending it to everyone. When Zenjo replied very quickly after that post I initially thought it was scummy but he has had some great insights so far and his language feels like he is actively trying to find scum.
So...Somebody reading and responding to your post in the way you wanted would have been scummy? If when you posted that you did not want them to post...Why did you post it?
Gigas point 3: Lists at the stage of the game when I mentioned being against them would have been ill informed. That's my opinion. At no point did I say we shouldn't be making reads on people. That's blatent misrep.
Ah, I apologize for that. I did mean to type "lists." However, if you can make reads, then why can't you make lists?
Point 4: Of course I would like people to listen. However, if that's how folks want to express who they feel is scummy and they don't see any downside then that's gret.
"I think everyone should vote for you. Only if they want to, of course."
You don't see anything at all wrong with that? Doesn't that read as horribly appeasing to you?
Next: Lists are not discussion. Lists are a couple of bullet points. They may drive discussion, but they haven't. The majority of the discussion so far has been based around regular conversations and questioning.
They haven't at least partially because they've been rather lacking in content, and because a certain person has been spending a lot of time talking about how bad they are and how people shouldn't make them. Unless, of course, they want to.
All in all, my position is that I didn't have enough info to put a list out. I'm also not an advocate of a mislynch simply to gather information which apparently you and Gamora are. I'd rather start off with a scum hanging after we have heard from everyone.
...Seriously? Where in that post did I say anything resembling "Let's lynch someone at random to get information!"? I said that a mislynch isn't terrible, but that obviously a scum lynch would be better. And nowhere did I suggest that we have a lynch right now, or that we lynch without hearing from everyone.
They haven't at least partially because they've been rather lacking in content, and because a certain person has been spending a lot of time talking about how bad they are and how people shouldn't make them. Unless, of course, they want to.
That was my whole arguement against them at this stage of the day. No more, no less.
I'm not going to be posting as frequently between Monday to Thursday. It's the week before Spring Break and I want to focus on my studies so I can enjoy the break instead of stressing out that I'm not as high up grade wise that I want to be.
I'm also a little bit concerned about Chickenfish. His posts are very long, which could be either a town or scum tell. For now I have him as neutral but I'm watching carefully.
I'm happy to hear this. Not happy that I have you concerned, but (as much as I hate to admit it), I think this is exactly the effect KCC was going for. However, I hope you're watching everyone carefully, cos that's what we're here for
With a bandwagon out there you force people to take a side. You`re either on or off. Ideally this would give scum less wiggle room and force them into a concrete opinion that we can refer back to for the rest of the game.
This statement bugs me a bit. I think it's the same issue I had with KCC's voting strategy. Things are very rarely black and white in this game, and forcing them to be can lead to misinformation...
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Battlemaster - has been quick to cause disruption, in the name of discussion an example. I find there are better ways to have discussions than finger pointing.
I don’t understand what you mean by disruption. All I have been been doing is giving my 2 cents into the conversations. Not only is it important to find the scum but make sure we don’t lynch townies. The reason I haven’t been actively going after every player is I haven’t had enough time.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Dark Confident: Heh isn't that (Panoptic Mirror) banned? What you do mean you imprint Timewarp? i imprint my foot on your face!
And I still find it a little odd that after being asked for the justification she flat out refused.
Where?
Still... no vote there, because I don't think it's necessarily a scumtell. I was merely trying to avoid a bunch of time being wasted with a discussion tactic I didn't believe would produce any useful discussion.
So...you tried to avoid time being wasted discussing a tactic you didn't agree with...by discussing a tactic you didn't agree with?
Explain that logic to me.
Unfortunately I don't know what to say but I agree with you. I probably defended my decisions a little too strongly... I suppose I was erring on the side of caution with not wanting to post anything contentless...
This is the problem... I think it's entirely possible KCC is town (bit less convinced as time goes on, but I don't like making reads based solely on playstyle and her content besides the weird vote has been... acceptable), but the bizarre strategy has created a situation in some people's minds where either KCC or I are scum. It's taken a lot of self-control not to vote, but when I really analyse how I feel I think the "scumtells" I'm getting could easily just be OMGUS vibes...
This, on the other hand, is quite interesting. However, even if you could only post by telegraph, I think we all want some elaboration here.
You're the only one creating a false dichotomy re: you and KCC.
Just trying to figure out what's going on in your mind here. You think Manders is upset that you think I'm town and KCC is scum, upset enough to vote for you, but you think Manders is definitely town? I can't get my head around that logic...
What makes you think Manders is definitely town? That's pretty confident!
Given that Manders is 'definitely town', why would she vote for you just because she disagrees with your perception of people?
Are you serious? Unless I'm missing something this is an insane overreaction, and totally out of character from what you've been doing previously...
While I'm not particularly impressed with Manders' or KCC's conduct, this is just reaching as far as I can see. Unvote
Vote: Gamora
Could we have a vote count please?
You're missing something. I just don't know if it's intentional or not.
You don't care if people begin to suspect you're scum. If your motivation is truly creating discussion for information, why would you not care if it became clouded by people thinking you're scum?
I'm happy to hear this. Not happy that I have you concerned, but (as much as I hate to admit it), I think this is exactly the effect KCC was going for. However, I hope you're watching everyone carefully, cos that's what we're here for
This statement bugs me a bit. I think it's the same issue I had with KCC's voting strategy. Things are very rarely black and white in this game, and forcing them to be can lead to misinformation...
The only person leaning scum is KCC. However, if I get a quality explanation for the strategy, I'll change my mind about this.
This is the post that initially pinged my scumdar and prompted me asking for a town/scum list. You give 0 reasons for Chickenfish and Gamora being town, then go on to say KCC is leaning scum, yet you leave yourself an out. And not just any out, like, "I may" or "I might be persuaded."
Chickenfish. Jumped in too fast and got in way over his head.
Manders hex. Been actively scum hunting since RVS.
Gamora. Copped to a mistake, if he were scum he would've pushed harder for a mislynch (and could have been rather successful).
Scum
KCC. Has something she's hiding, but has not revealed it yet. Kinda like a "if you lynch me, my secrets die with me, so put off lynching me for now."
No reads on the rest.
Alright, time to tear it apart:
His reasoning for Chickenfish isn't indicative of alignment in the least. It's indicative of noob.
His reasoning for myself is just naive. I mean, I am town, so he got lucky, but I scumhunt when I'm scum, too. KCC and Gigas can vouch for this.
His reasoning for Gamora, again, is the lamest of WIFOM. Especially since not one scum worth their salt would continue pushing a case that's not going anywhere.
The KCC reasoning is OK, albeit wrong. I mean, players obviously hiding stuff is a good place to start, but it's not enough to lynch.
I fence sit, I DO NOT lurk. In all the games I've played I've been one of the most vocal posters throughout the game. Lurking implies that I sit on my haunches waiting for the opportune time to make a post. In fact, I post often and frequently. This is why I don't take notes, because if I have something in my head or an idea pops out, I express it publically.
If I was lurking I wouldn't be responding to all your queries. But look at this game so far. Every time someone has asked me to clarify or do something I've done it right away.
Tl;dr - fence sitting=\= lurking
It's called actively lurking, and is the number one tell I have on you right now. It is the reason I think you are scum. You have the most post ITT (or second, I can't recall) yet I can't remember crap you've contributed other than self-meta, two lists with terrible reason, and olive branch extending.
Okay after re-reading through, here is my updated scum/town list:
Town
Mandershex- Been actively scum hunting since RVS.
Foxlet - New to the game, but putting out a scumlist with some players that haven't been identified as scum by other players. Seems genuinely town.
Chickenfish - seems genuinely upset that KCC thinks his scum.
Gamora - Could have pushed for a successful mislynch of me but he admitted his mistake.
Zenjo - Gut feeling. Think he's town. He scumhunted the first opportunity he got instead of lurking.
Neutral
KCC - has some surreptious reasons for thinking Chickenfish is scum but hasn't revealed them yet.
Wheat Grinder - not enough posts to develop a read.
Scum
ErontheRelentless - been actively trying to find cracks in the dam, but without scumhunting himself.
Battlemaster - same as Eron; has had very little interactivity with most of the playe
Oh, good, another list. Why'd you make this?
Foxlet: I actually agree.
Chickenfish: Yeah, scum would seem genuine about it, too.
Gamora: Still WIFOM.
Zenjo: All these good points you give for scumhunting, yet you don't do it yourself. Hmm.
KCC: I thought she was leaning scum? For that same reasoning? What happened?
WG: Hmm.
Eron: Lolwut?
Battlemaster: Ironically, same as Eron. Lolwut?
I`ll admit that I`m having a tough time getting a read from this Chickenfish-KCC conversation. Chickenfish seems a bit over-deffensive but that isn`t neccasarily scummy. I would also have preferred if KCC just came out and said what she thought was scummy about him.
As it is, I`m still fine with keeping my vote on Arnnaria. Even with other people confirming that that`s just how he plays, the way he preemptively brought it up is what rubbed me the wrong way.
10:21: Fine with vote on Arnnaria
I post @ 11:18 opposing what you said
12:13: States he's going to have a tough time getting anyone on board. I'm the only one that'd posted?
It`s looking like I`m going to have a tough time getting anyone on board with my Arnarria case. I`ll read through once more and see if I can word my argument a little more clearly. I don`t feel like I`ve quite stated it as welll as I could. If it`s still not doing anything for anyone else I might have to just move on.
Then 12:56: Comes back saying he over-thought the post, and unvotes.
There was 0 pressure on him here, meaning he likely is telling the truth re: reasoning (that he changed his read)...but is it because he's town or scum? Hmmmm
Sure thing. After rereading post 65 by Arnarria in the context of the conversation and considering the fact that it had been pointed by other people that fence-sitting isn`t that uncommon for him it started to look like my argument was a little convaluted(I was trying to argue that by mentioning that he has hard time taking a stance he might be just trying to set up a cover to sit back and not take a side on anyone in this game). It became more apparent to me that the simplest answer was that he just made a standard comment about his previous play.
This, by no means, eliminates him as possible scum in my mind but it now comes off more as a null tell.
Regarding the bolded, please quote for me who said that before you unvoted. Cause I must have missed it.
I`m don`t recall any of the people with just one post(Zenjo, Miracule, and Gigas1) mentioning any v/la. If they are actually available it would be nice to
get their opinions on what`s gone on so far.
I don`t get what the panic over lists is about. It just seems like another way to promote discussion. Sure a list could have vague reasoning, so could any other type of post. I don`t think we should be limiting our means of discussion when it`s our best weapon for catching scum.
Wow, again with the fear-mongering. What mob? I`ll have to look to make sure but I don`t think anyone even has more than 2 votes. You make it seem like someone could get lynched any second now. If anything, I think a bandwagon could do us some good. It would at least get people to start stating some serious opinions and taking stances. I really don`t like how you seem to be trying to hinder the conversation.
Before I go any further I just want to make sure I`m not totally misusing the term "bandwagon". I`m under the impression that a badwagon just refers to a situation where multiple people are expressing suspicion on someone. Isn`t every lynch the result of a bandwagon, regardless of wheather it was a mislynch or not?
From what I understand this scenario looks more like like an example of "barning". Where you have people jumping on a bandwagon without giving an solid reasons of their own.
A bandwagon certainly can result in a mislynch (although it`s also likely it that won`t result in a lynch at all), I`m was more reffering to the process of the bandwagon itself rather than the possible lynch resulting from it.
With a bandwagon out there you force people to take a side. You`re either on or off. Ideally this would give scum less wiggle room and force them into a concrete opinion that we can refer back to for the rest of the game.
The scenario Foxlet provided is actually a bandwagon made by barning.
For the record.
There is no why anyone you should hold back information about scum tells. All it does it hurt the town. You could better teach new players by showing the where the scum tells you found are. FOS KittyCupCake
My leaning right now is that Chickenfish is town. In his rush to explain things he information spewed. Seems normal. I would expect a scum to be very precise in what they say to avoid giving away any clues.
So how does everyone feel about the fact that we have at least two players who have said nothing besides their orginal /confirmation post? Miracule being one. I'm on my phone so flipping to pull the names is a little difficult ATM.
This has already been said many times, but who cares? It's still early, and it was the weekend. Get over it.
Then let's discuss. Ask about people you are curious about. But the lists we have seen so far have provided no detail and gotten someone insta-voted because he didn't have enough reasoning.
OOC: it's my kids B-day today so I may not get a chance for a full response.
Quick hits:
Gigas point 1: I have not voted.
Gigas point 2: I whole heartedly agree it's early in the game. I was merely trying to get everyone talking, hence sending it to everyone. When Zenjo replied very quickly after that post I initially thought it was scummy but he has had some great insights so far and his language feels like he is actively trying to find scum.
Gigas point 3: Lists at the stage of the game when I mentioned being against them would have been ill informed. That's my opinion. At no point did I say we shouldn't be making reads on people. That's blatent misrep.
Point 4: Of course I would like people to listen. However, if that's how folks want to express who they feel is scummy and they don't see any downside then that's gret.
Next: Lists are not discussion. Lists are a couple of bullet points. They may drive discussion, but they haven't. The majority of the discussion so far has been based around regular conversations and questioning.
All in all, my position is that I didn't have enough info to put a list out. I'm also not an advocate of a mislynch simply to gather information which apparently you and Gamora are. I'd rather start off with a scum hanging after we have heard from everyone.
If I have indeed hindered conversation, than for that I apologize, but i'm not going to sit on my opinons because I may sound like scum.
Oooh, that last line is fantastic. Insta town read.
Ok, I think I found something. Chickenfish puts up an elaborate post defending his joke vote. The thing is, there were quite a few joke votes being thrown around at the same time and they didn't need such an explanation.
Then his response to KCC's waiting to tell why she voted him.
If KCC already said she was going to let some discussion happen about why she voted him, discussion which is good for town, then what is the point in arguing?
Once the KCC gives the reason then you can defend yourself. It's not like your going to get lynched while waiting for KCC to give her reasons.
FoS:Chickenfish
I like you. Will you be my Seppel in this game since he's not here?
This mean's I'll kiss up to you a lot cause you're one of my BFFs ITT.
This is my first game, but if I don't follow the logic of the 'vague reasoning' then I would refuse to be 'swayed'. I do however find it interesting that you include yourself explicitly in that sentence, giving yourself an excuse to 'be swayed'.
The interactions between Gamora and Arnnaria are starting to scare me.
Gamora - post 91 - It looks as if he is trying to start a wagon to lynch Arnnaria
Arnnaria - post 111 - Uses Gamora's sudden change of heart as a town tell because a scum would have pushed harder for a mislynch
I don't think a scum would've pushed harder at that point because it was
clear that no one agreed with Gamora.
Gamora - post 149 - Reads the post wrong and then is quite defensive about
him being the same alignment as Arnarria
Gamora - post 151 - Says a bandwagon could be a good idea? Isn't a bandwagon people jumping on without good reason except that everyone else is also jumping on?
Arnnaria - post 167 - Again tries to reinforce the idea that Gamora could have been successful in mislynching someone and uses that as a town tell
What concerns me most is that I don't think Gamora could have caused a mislynch if he pushed harder. Which makes Arnnaria's town tell on Gamora pointless.
Possible scum team?
Vote:Gamora
FoS:Arnnaria
I'm also a little bit concerned about Chickenfish. His posts are very long, which could be either a town or scum tell. For now I have him as neutral but I'm watching carefully.
Oh, I dig it, bby. Arnnaria first, though. Gamora's had some good posts.
Now for my promised thoughts, such as they are. I should also add, this is my FOS list, everyone else is currently either neutral or leaning town because I can't get a good read, etc. All that is obviously subject to change.
Battlemaster - has been quick to cause disruption, in the name of discussion an example. I find there are better ways to have discussions than finger pointing.
ErontheRelentless - similar to Battlemaster, most of their posts have been pushy and "aggressive", forcing people into defensive mode. While it DOES promote discussion, again, there are better ways of doing it. Unless I've been to tired to notice, I also haven't noticed any opinions of his own at this time.
Kitty and Chicken - Lumping these two together, because I'm on the fence about both of them. I need to go back and read (again) all their posts. There were a few, to me very awkwardly worded sentences that both of them made.....Chicken...it could just be that he was just so wordy, and already on the defensive.....In Kitty's defense, it's harder to say (since they haven't posted as much). Or they could be playing off one another. I don't have enough evidence at either of them at the moment to be comfortable with a lynch or pursuing a bus on them.
Gut reaction to this is that Eron is scum. The second sentence seems awful; he is deflecting conversation to himself by encouraging people to figure out why he voted? Doesn't seem right to me.
It's still early in the game, have a little patience. But, more importantly, how do YOU feel about it? Do you think it's indicative of their alignment, a good distraction from scum hunting, or a way to make it look like you're doing more than you actually are? (In case it isn't obvious yet, I think Eron is scum. More reasons to follow)
And why do you think that is? What does that have to say about anybody's alignment in the game, where the discussion should go, etc.?
So you post a lot to not really say anything at all about your leads? That's called active lurking, and it is barely better than regular lurking. In fact, it can be worse because it's harder to notice, and because people that lurk often make big posts when they do post (like this one).
Why are you so hung up on that? You can't make reads on the people that are posting? Also, notice the reason here: We shouldn't make reads because 2 people haven't commented.
If you mean it would leave some people out when making the lists...So what? It lets everyone see what other people's reads are, even if there are a few holes in the lists.
Also have a bad gut read on this post. If you think people shouldn't make scum lists, then why say that they can go ahead and do it anyway? Don't you want people to listen to your opinions?
Who got insta-voted because of not enough reasoning? I'm pretty sure Manders voted because of bad/scummy reasoning, not a lack of it. And those lists have also created quite a lot of discussion, which is a good thing.
Well then what should somebody be lynched for? I think giving poor reasons for thinking somebody is scum is a perfectly cromulent reason to vote/lynch somebody.
Lists are discussion. They state your views in a convenient way, and your reasons for thinking so, and allow everyone to see where you stand on everybody so you can't suddenly change your views. What type of discussion were you wanting?
Again, why are you so focused on the two people that haven't been posting? Talking about them all the time won't make them post any sooner, and will just distract from more important issues.
Again, what type of discussion do you want? One about why Battlemaster is scummy? Well, if you would check Arnnaria's recent list, you could see a reason why. Now, if you disagree with it, make a comment about it, and talk about why that is.
Well, mislynches allow us to analyze a whole lot of stuff. Who was on the wagon, who defended who, who got on when for what reasons, etc. Obviously, a scum lynch is better, but getting a mislynch isn't the end of the world.
So, without further ado, I will go ahead and Vote: EronTheRelentless.
(1) KCC for not having one helpful post the whole game. I know we talked about this earlier but I thought she would have at least given us some clues or something…
I fence sit, I DO NOT lurk. In all the games I've played I've been one of the most vocal posters throughout the game. Lurking implies that I sit on my haunches waiting for the opportune time to make a post. In fact, I post often and frequently. This is why I don't take notes, because if I have something in my head or an idea pops out, I express it publically.
If I was lurking I wouldn't be responding to all your queries. But look at this game so far. Every time someone has asked me to clarify or do something I've done it right away.
I'm not going to be posting as frequently between Monday to Thursday. It's the week before Spring Break and I want to focus on my studies so I can enjoy the break instead of stressing out that I'm not as high up grade wise that I want to be.
So I guess V/LA from 12-16.
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2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
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2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
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And I still find it a little odd that after being asked for the justification she flat out refused.
Not sure whether you’re asking for where she's asked or where she's answered, but:
A few asked for an explanation (or at least, saying that the vote with no explanation seems dodgy is an implied request for explanation).
f you mean where has she refused, I've already addressed the same question from KCC herself. As I've explained previously, simply waiting for somebody else to mention "what she's seen" and then saying "yes that's what it was" is as good as not providing an explanation at all in my mind.
Also, a lot of discussion has been created surrounding it, and now people appear to be starting to move onto other things - with KCC having posted since, you'd think that it would be a good time for her to explicitly express concern in case the town forget about who she thinks is giving of scumtells. However, this hasn't happened, so that in itself is a refusal.
Still... no vote there, because I don't think it's necessarily a scumtell. I was merely trying to avoid a bunch of time being wasted with a discussion tactic I didn't believe would produce any useful discussion.
So...you tried to avoid time being wasted discussing a tactic you didn't agree with...by discussing a tactic you didn't agree with?
Explain that logic to me.
I wasn't trying to avoid wasting time discussing a tactic - I was trying to avoid wasting time discussing a vote. This is why I started asking about the tactic - the vote itself had very little to discuss, and speculation on KCC's motivation would have wasted time when we simply could have been told it. Subtle difference I suppose, but it's there.
Unfortunately I don't know what to say but I agree with you. I probably defended my decisions a little too strongly... I suppose I was erring on the side of caution with not wanting to post anything contentless...
Man, you are just oozing.
Quite a pseudo-response from you. If you're implying that this is a scumtell, I'd like to understand your interpretation. My initial vote + explanation was to generate discussion, and since then I have attempted to generate + participate in discussion. Contentless posting isn't in my interest as scum or town - saying that this is a scum tell is you seeing what you want to see.
This is the problem... I think it's entirely possible KCC is town (bit less convinced as time goes on, but I don't like making reads based solely on playstyle and her content besides the weird vote has been... acceptable), but the bizarre strategy has created a situation in some people's minds where either KCC or I are scum. It's taken a lot of self-control not to vote, but when I really analyse how I feel I think the "scumtells" I'm getting could easily just be OMGUS vibes...
This, on the other hand, is quite interesting. However, even if you could only post by telegraph, I think we all want some elaboration here.
You're the only one creating a false dichotomy re: you and KCC.
I'm not sure where you're getting that from. I have done nothing but express that concern from the start, based on the fact that it quite quickly happened in Arnnaria's reads soon after. The false dichotomy is not at all in my interests.
Just trying to figure out what's going on in your mind here. You think Manders is upset that you think I'm town and KCC is scum, upset enough to vote for you, but you think Manders is definitely town? I can't get my head around that logic...
What makes you think Manders is definitely town? That's pretty confident!
Given that Manders is 'definitely town', why would she vote for you just because she disagrees with your perception of people?
What do you think of his answer to this?
For quick reference, the response in question was:
Quote from Arnnaria »
I think Manders is town because she's been actively scum-hunting since RVS. However, without more elucidation from Manders on why she is actually voting for me, further comments will not be necessary because the reason I think she voted for me has already been confirmed as not being true by Manders herself.
I think Arnnaria's posts are all fairly vague, so there's not much to respond to here. There will be much more to respond to once this vagueness (hopefully) evolves into Arnnaria's answer to the posts you've just written.
Are you serious? Unless I'm missing something this is an insane overreaction, and totally out of character from what you've been doing previously...
While I'm not particularly impressed with Manders' or KCC's conduct, this is just reaching as far as I can see.
Unvote
Vote: Gamora
Could we have a vote count please?
You're missing something. I just don't know if it's intentional or not.
Once again, quite a pseudo-response. This is verging on active lurking – you aren’t making a case for anything, and are leaving the creating of content up to me. Moving past that (for now), I’ll take statement as a ‘think more and elaborate’, and here is what you get:
All I was missing was the justification of that reaction. I felt it was incredibly wishy-washy, and as such realised that the only consistency in Gamora’s posting/voting was the inconsistency. So a vote was given.
You don't care if people begin to suspect you're scum. If your motivation is truly creating discussion for information, why would you not care if it became clouded by people thinking you're scum?
Why should she?
The answer is already in the bit you’ve quoted. As I’ve unfortunately done, a towny being seen as suspicious and scummy clouds the conversation, because it turns into a misguided scumhunt. Once again – you’re not actually creating content here. The real question is why shouldn’t she?
I'm happy to hear this. Not happy that I have you concerned, but (as much as I hate to admit it), I think this is exactly the effect KCC was going for. However, I hope you're watching everyone carefully, cos that's what we're here for
This statement bugs me a bit. I think it's the same issue I had with KCC's voting strategy. Things are very rarely black and white in this game, and forcing them to be can lead to misinformation...
You're SO self conscious!!!
/dislike
See above – me being seen as scum distracts from the actual hunt.
Apologies for the formatting nightmare – the fabrication of quotes within quotes is horrible.
As for the rest of your post, seeing as it’s not directed at me I won’t do a quote by quote (also I have to go out, so if you wish I can elaborate in a few hours), but here goes:
Arnnaria is definitely posting things with very little content. However, a lot of it appears to be what can be boiled down to noobiness (we’ll see if this continues), but also awaiting responses from people. With a post from you now Manders, I’m interested in seeing some actual opinions from Arnnaria.
Also, re you thinking my jumping in and getting over my head is potentially indicative of noob scum – I’m not a noob. Used to play all the time elsewhere… sure it’s probably a year or so since I’ve played, but if I were scum I’d be well aware that saying too much is how to get caught.
As you’ve noticed, I like to make sure my point has come across. So far the major criticism of my play I’ve seen is that I seem too defensive – this is because I try to post in a way that won’t require followup questions and everybody losing a day or 2 (real time) because of time differences. If you think there are holes in my logic, on the other hand, I think that criticism is totally valid.
There’s a lot of friendliness happening between you and KCC… not sure how much I like this based on the fact that I can’t get a solid read on KCC. At the moment I’m boiling it down to you two thinking very similarly, but this will definitely require reassessment if either of you flips scum.
Time to go! Will reread the whole thread and figured out if there’s anything more to say in a few hours…
KCC: I thought she was leaning scum? For that same reasoning? What happened?
WG: Hmm.
Chickenfish posted awhile back on how he thinks KCC isn't scum, but just town trying to do her job. That pretty much convinced me to change her from leaning scum to neutral.
I know you're against this, but I want to see a list from Eron.
OOC: it's my kids B-day today so I may not get a chance for a full response.
Quick hits:
Gigas point 1: I have not voted.
Gigas point 2: I whole heartedly agree it's early in the game. I was merely trying to get everyone talking, hence sending it to everyone. When Zenjo replied very quickly after that post I initially thought it was scummy but he has had some great insights so far and his language feels like he is actively trying to find scum.
Gigas point 3: Lists at the stage of the game when I mentioned being against them would have been ill informed. That's my opinion. At no point did I say we shouldn't be making reads on people. That's blatent misrep.
Point 4: Of course I would like people to listen. However, if that's how folks want to express who they feel is scummy and they don't see any downside then that's gret.
Next: Lists are not discussion. Lists are a couple of bullet points. They may drive discussion, but they haven't. The majority of the discussion so far has been based around regular conversations and questioning.
All in all, my position is that I didn't have enough info to put a list out. I'm also not an advocate of a mislynch simply to gather information which apparently you and Gamora are. I'd rather start off with a scum hanging after we have heard from everyone.
If I have indeed hindered conversation, than for that I apologize, but i'm not going to sit on my opinons because I may sound like scum.
If you're against lists so badly, make reads on at least 2 or 3 people. Who should we be hunting? Who has stepped up as the town hero?
You claim to be moving the discussion along, not stifling it, but you haven't given your opinion on anyone in the game yet.
Here is my gut reaction to the most active posters:
Townie:
Foxlet - Hasn't been overly active but has been contributing his ideas. Hasn't done anything that makes me think he would be anything but town.
KCC - Generated a lot of discussion with the ChickenFish vote and jumpstarted real conversation. Further interactions with ChickenFish may have people splitting them town/scum. While this isn't exactly a positive thing, it isn't a scum tell either.
Scummy:
EronTheRelentless - Doesn't like lists, and brought up 3 times the players that haven't posted. If people are absent or silent, there isn't really much to talk about, and lists are important at every stage of the game, in my opinion anyway. I feel like you were trying to divert attention from conversations that were actually getting people to talk about interesting things.
Gamora - Voted arrnaria and backed down quickly. Didn't offer up any opinion on the KCC/Chickenfish thing. Talks a lot about how helpful discussion is for town, but hasn't contributed much himself.
ChickenFish - A bit overzealous while discussing KCC's vote. Demanded to get her reasoning immediately, even though she said she would later.
Still not sure where I stand with Arnnaria or Manders.
Chickenfish posted awhile back on how he thinks KCC isn't scum, but just town trying to do her job. That pretty much convinced me to change her from leaning scum to neutral.
You should let simple statements from people sway you so much - not even me
As far as I recall, I've only ever said I think it's possible KCC is town doing her job in a way she sees fit. If you've got a scum read on somebody, make sure you let it go for your own reasons.
Also, before I get accused of mislead others into a vote, I genuinely mean this for everyone, including the people who have me in their sights. If something is bugging you about somebody, don't eliminate them as a possibility just because others do. Either satisfy yourself they're not, or keep them on your list.
If you're against lists so badly, make reads on at least 2 or 3 people. Who should we be hunting? Who has stepped up as the town hero?
You claim to be moving the discussion along, not stifling it, but you haven't given your opinion on anyone in the game yet.
This is semi-hypocritical, and I hope you can see why. Your posts are a lot of just agreeing with other people, or making incredibly vague statements. Happy to see you taking a solid stand finally, but still keeping in mind it's a stand that Gigas has already taken...
I initially put it down to you saying you're new, but it doesn't even really seem you've attempted to up your game. Also, as I stated in my huge response to Manders, I'd put your quiteness down to awaiting a response from Manders. You lost your suspicion because Manders said 'oh there's explanation to come', and that seemed good enough for you for the time being. The explanation did come (in spades!), and you didn't even think to respond to it? This concerns me. Greatly. FoS: Arnnaria
ChickenFish - A bit overzealous while discussing KCC's vote. Demanded to get her reasoning immediately, even though she said she would later.
...Seriously? Remind me where I demanded her reasoning for the vote, rather than question the logic behind and pointing out the potential risk of posting that way? Also, have you just glossed over the multiple times where I've said why I didn't think an explanation later would be ok?
Also confused as to how people are fine with the 'voting with no explanation is how KCC plays day 1', but not 'overexplaining is how Chickenfish plays'. I'm not going to shorten my explanations/defenses, because that how I feel I need to express myself. It's that simple.
Once again, if you have an issue with the actual things I've said, rather than how I've said them, let me know!
I've got a busy next 48 hours, so probably will only be reading/posting in the hour or so before I go to bed (currently 12.45am.. so about 24 and 48 hours from now). I'll try not to leave anything unanswered/unsaid!
Foxlet: I actually agree.
Chickenfish: Yeah, scum would seem genuine about it, too.
Gamora: Still WIFOM.
Zenjo: All these good points you give for scumhunting, yet you don't do it yourself. Hmm.
KCC: I thought she was leaning scum? For that same reasoning? What happened?
WG: Hmm.
Eron: Lolwut?
Battlemaster: Ironically, same as Eron. Lolwut?
I made this list to update further.
Foxlet: I'm glad we agree on something.
Chickenfish: I would see scum flailing, but Chickenfish has remained calm, cool, and collected thoughout his entire "trial."
Gamora: I need clarification on WIFOM but I will be asking my mentor.
Zenjo: I'm beginning to scumhunt now with Eron. It just took me a while to get my read on who I wanted to go after.
KCC: If Chickenfish doesn't think she's scum, I have no reason to believe she's scum. I know this is barning, but my only reason for thinking she was scum in the first place was because Chickenfish vs. KCC turned into a big deal. The more I read about KCC, the more I'm convinced she's town.
Eron and Battlemaster: seem deadset on steering the conversation away from lists and reads, but haven't provided any list or reads themselves.
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Wow, again with the fear-mongering. What mob? I`ll have to look to make sure but I don`t think anyone even has more than 2 votes. You make it seem like someone could get lynched any second now. If anything, I think a bandwagon could do us some good. It would at least get people to start stating some serious opinions and taking stances. I really don`t like how you seem to be trying to hinder the conversation.
Vote EronTheRelentless
Was this vote (post #66) a legitimate vote? Please explain your logic either way.
I am not, in any way, "hindering" discussion. In fact, I think at several points I have been attempting to move it along.
I simply stated that I don't like lists this early and have stated multiple reasons for that. If you think they provide so much benefit (considering 2 people STILL haven't posted), why have you not provided one to the group?
Are you serious? Unless I'm missing something this is an insane overreaction, and totally out of character from what you've been doing previously...
While I'm not particularly impressed with Manders' or KCC's conduct, this is just reaching as far as I can see.
Unvote
Vote: Gamora
Could we have a vote count please?
I think it`s a bit of a contradiction for you to say that you`re not hindering discussion while also saying that you don`t want people to make lists. The lists are a form of discussion in themselves. Just look at the discussion between us right now. All started because of a couple of lists.
The lists are a valid form of discussion but so far I`ve been preferring more direct arguments with people. If I feel it necessary to make a list then I won`t hesitate to make one.
I did not add a much if my own reasons at the time because as I think I mentioned before, it's early in the game for anything that really stands out as obv scum to me.
Having said that, I'll post tomorrow with some of my thoughts behind who is on my list. It's late fer me and I'd rather be able to think with a clear head
I straight up said go for it. I just can't see them being well informed at this point. Really it's the same reason you just gave for not posting one. Discussion is better right now.
So, I think it's too early and would rather have a discussion while you prefer discussion ATM as well, yet you have me pegged as scum for it because I typed it out?
I`m probably somewhat biased as my own character is concerned but seeing as my first vote was for someone I thought was trying to hide from discussion and my second was for someone I thought was trying to hinder it, I feel I`ve been pretty consistant so far.
If Arnarria he uses this quote as an excuse later on to sit back later not contribute much to the group or as an excuse to ride the bandwagon/hammer people. It would be a good indication that he was scum. If he does not I don’t really read it as a scum tell.
I hoped my comment would also cause Arnarria to not fence sit the rest of the game.
I don’t think I made any correlation to that.
Both of which appear to be overreactions and attempts to create bandwagons. You only abandonded the first one after no one else hopped on with you and you stated that a bandwagon now would be good for business.
If creating a wagon drives to a mislynch how does that benefit us?
Yeah, sorry, didn't explain myself very well either.
You have appeared quite cool and logical up until this point, but the 'logic' you applied was a huge stretch. I really don't see Eron's post as suspicious.
While I agree that lists can be an effective way to promote discussion, all Eron said is that he understands why people may not post them, and that he didn't have enough info to be able to post one. Hardly suspicious.
That's a risk I'm willing to take to gather info, especially since I wouldn't really care if that happened anyway.
Who, exactly? -Because I haven't seen anyone say this.
Yes. -And it was post 55. The post was unnecessary and awkwardly worded, like he was trying to look like he was doing something.
Just so you know, this is a terrible reason to do things in this game. You do not want to help potential scum to avoid making scum tells. -When you have a situation like this, where you see one set of possible actions as being scummy, you shouldn't give that player hints on what not to do; on the contrary, you should either wait and watch, or actively try to draw out that behavior. -Because it becomes much harder to catch scum if you are coaching them on how to behave.
Arnnaria is the only one so far to have outright said he thinks there is a distinction between our alignments based on how the conversation went:
(along with a few other mentions of getting these vibes), but I wouldn't be surprised if there are others who've decided it has to be one way or the other.
While this is true in general, in the specific case of fence-sitting and/or lurking I disagree. If he is a truly indecisive player and/or scum, it's much better to encourage posting so that we can actually get a tell rather than what is potentially the null tell of a new player not wanting to commit to something and thus looking like scum.
I think Manders is town because she's been actively scum-hunting since RVS. However, without more elucidation from Manders on why she is actually voting for me, further comments will not be necessary because the reason I think she voted for me has already been confirmed as not being true by Manders herself.
Town
Mandershex- Been actively scum hunting since RVS.
Foxlet - New to the game, but putting out a scumlist with some players that haven't been identified as scum by other players. Seems genuinely town.
Chickenfish - seems genuinely upset that KCC thinks his scum.
Gamora - Could have pushed for a successful mislynch of me but he admitted his mistake.
Zenjo - Gut feeling. Think he's town. He scumhunted the first opportunity he got instead of lurking.
Neutral
KCC - has some surreptious reasons for thinking Chickenfish is scum but hasn't revealed them yet.
Wheat Grinder - not enough posts to develop a read.
Scum
ErontheRelentless - been actively trying to find cracks in the dam, but without scumhunting himself.
Battlemaster - same as Eron; has had very little interactivity with most of the playe
Gamora - post 91 - It looks as if he is trying to start a wagon to lynch Arnnaria
Arnnaria - post 111 - Uses Gamora's sudden change of heart as a town tell because a scum would have pushed harder for a mislynch
I don't think a scum would've pushed harder at that point because it was
clear that no one agreed with Gamora.
Gamora - post 149 - Reads the post wrong and then is quite defensive about
him being the same alignment as Arnarria
Gamora - post 151 - Says a bandwagon could be a good idea? Isn't a bandwagon people jumping on without good reason except that everyone else is also jumping on?
Arnnaria - post 167 - Again tries to reinforce the idea that Gamora could have been successful in mislynching someone and uses that as a town tell
What concerns me most is that I don't think Gamora could have caused a mislynch if he pushed harder. Which makes Arnnaria's town tell on Gamora pointless.
Possible scum team?
Vote:Gamora
FoS:Arnnaria
I'm also a little bit concerned about Chickenfish. His posts are very long, which could be either a town or scum tell. For now I have him as neutral but I'm watching carefully.
Now for my promised thoughts, such as they are. I should also add, this is my FOS list, everyone else is currently either neutral or leaning town because I can't get a good read, etc. All that is obviously subject to change.
Battlemaster - has been quick to cause disruption, in the name of discussion an example. I find there are better ways to have discussions than finger pointing.
ErontheRelentless - similar to Battlemaster, most of their posts have been pushy and "aggressive", forcing people into defensive mode. While it DOES promote discussion, again, there are better ways of doing it. Unless I've been to tired to notice, I also haven't noticed any opinions of his own at this time.
Kitty and Chicken - Lumping these two together, because I'm on the fence about both of them. I need to go back and read (again) all their posts. There were a few, to me very awkwardly worded sentences that both of them made.....Chicken...it could just be that he was just so wordy, and already on the defensive.....In Kitty's defense, it's harder to say (since they haven't posted as much). Or they could be playing off one another. I don't have enough evidence at either of them at the moment to be comfortable with a lynch or pursuing a bus on them.
I'll be adding more thoughts in a bit!
Where did Manders confirm her reasoning as not being true?
Gut reaction to this is that Eron is scum. The second sentence seems awful; he is deflecting conversation to himself by encouraging people to figure out why he voted? Doesn't seem right to me.
It's still early in the game, have a little patience. But, more importantly, how do YOU feel about it? Do you think it's indicative of their alignment, a good distraction from scum hunting, or a way to make it look like you're doing more than you actually are? (In case it isn't obvious yet, I think Eron is scum. More reasons to follow)
And why do you think that is? What does that have to say about anybody's alignment in the game, where the discussion should go, etc.?
So you post a lot to not really say anything at all about your leads? That's called active lurking, and it is barely better than regular lurking. In fact, it can be worse because it's harder to notice, and because people that lurk often make big posts when they do post (like this one).
Why are you so hung up on that? You can't make reads on the people that are posting? Also, notice the reason here: We shouldn't make reads because 2 people haven't commented.
If you mean it would leave some people out when making the lists...So what? It lets everyone see what other people's reads are, even if there are a few holes in the lists.
Also have a bad gut read on this post. If you think people shouldn't make scum lists, then why say that they can go ahead and do it anyway? Don't you want people to listen to your opinions?
Who got insta-voted because of not enough reasoning? I'm pretty sure Manders voted because of bad/scummy reasoning, not a lack of it. And those lists have also created quite a lot of discussion, which is a good thing.
Well then what should somebody be lynched for? I think giving poor reasons for thinking somebody is scum is a perfectly cromulent reason to vote/lynch somebody.
Lists are discussion. They state your views in a convenient way, and your reasons for thinking so, and allow everyone to see where you stand on everybody so you can't suddenly change your views. What type of discussion were you wanting?
Again, why are you so focused on the two people that haven't been posting? Talking about them all the time won't make them post any sooner, and will just distract from more important issues.
Again, what type of discussion do you want? One about why Battlemaster is scummy? Well, if you would check Arnnaria's recent list, you could see a reason why. Now, if you disagree with it, make a comment about it, and talk about why that is.
Well, mislynches allow us to analyze a whole lot of stuff. Who was on the wagon, who defended who, who got on when for what reasons, etc. Obviously, a scum lynch is better, but getting a mislynch isn't the end of the world.
So, without further ado, I will go ahead and Vote: EronTheRelentless.
Manders confirms my reasoning as not being true in Post#130.
But consider me leaning to vote for Eron.
Quick hits:
Gigas point 1: I have not voted.
Gigas point 2: I whole heartedly agree it's early in the game. I was merely trying to get everyone talking, hence sending it to everyone. When Zenjo replied very quickly after that post I initially thought it was scummy but he has had some great insights so far and his language feels like he is actively trying to find scum.
Gigas point 3: Lists at the stage of the game when I mentioned being against them would have been ill informed. That's my opinion. At no point did I say we shouldn't be making reads on people. That's blatent misrep.
Point 4: Of course I would like people to listen. However, if that's how folks want to express who they feel is scummy and they don't see any downside then that's gret.
Next: Lists are not discussion. Lists are a couple of bullet points. They may drive discussion, but they haven't. The majority of the discussion so far has been based around regular conversations and questioning.
All in all, my position is that I didn't have enough info to put a list out. I'm also not an advocate of a mislynch simply to gather information which apparently you and Gamora are. I'd rather start off with a scum hanging after we have heard from everyone.
If I have indeed hindered conversation, than for that I apologize, but i'm not going to sit on my opinons because I may sound like scum.
Wagon: short for bandwagon, is used to indicate the list of votes that accumulate after a player’s name as they are voted closer and closer to a lynch.Courtesy of Here
IMO, in theory yes people jump wagons to get lynches through on a frequent basis...I believe the general IDEA behind it is "Hey everyone I think Manders is Scum, Vote Manders...because of XYZ reasons" (some of which sound like total baloney I might add) and everyone then jumps on and says hey, you know you are right "jumps on".
It's basically a Mob mentality voting, and twisting others words against them.
It'll be more of a limited access thing, and I might be phone posting here and there, but I *shouldn't* be totally out of the loop!
From what I understand this scenario looks more like like an example of "barning". Where you have people jumping on a bandwagon without giving an solid reasons of their own.
A bandwagon certainly can result in a mislynch (although it`s also likely it that won`t result in a lynch at all), I`m was more reffering to the process of the bandwagon itself rather than the possible lynch resulting from it.
With a bandwagon out there you force people to take a side. You`re either on or off. Ideally this would give scum less wiggle room and force them into a concrete opinion that we can refer back to for the rest of the game.
I was referring to KCC, whom the quoted section was directed at.
So...Somebody reading and responding to your post in the way you wanted would have been scummy? If when you posted that you did not want them to post...Why did you post it?
Ah, I apologize for that. I did mean to type "lists." However, if you can make reads, then why can't you make lists?
"I think everyone should vote for you. Only if they want to, of course."
You don't see anything at all wrong with that? Doesn't that read as horribly appeasing to you?
They haven't at least partially because they've been rather lacking in content, and because a certain person has been spending a lot of time talking about how bad they are and how people shouldn't make them. Unless, of course, they want to.
...Seriously? Where in that post did I say anything resembling "Let's lynch someone at random to get information!"? I said that a mislynch isn't terrible, but that obviously a scum lynch would be better. And nowhere did I suggest that we have a lynch right now, or that we lynch without hearing from everyone.
That was my whole arguement against them at this stage of the day. No more, no less.
So I guess V/LA from 12-16.
This statement bugs me a bit. I think it's the same issue I had with KCC's voting strategy. Things are very rarely black and white in this game, and forcing them to be can lead to misinformation...
Sorry! I had a busy weekend, and you guys wasted no time in filling up 13 pages...catching up now, commentary to follow soon!
Arnnaria (1): MandersHex
Gamora (2): Chickenfish, Zenjo
Miracule (1): Battlemaster
Chickenfish (1): KittyCupCake
EronTheRelentless (2): Gamora, Gigas1
With 12 alive, it is 7 to lynch.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I don’t understand what you mean by disruption. All I have been been doing is giving my 2 cents into the conversations. Not only is it important to find the scum but make sure we don’t lynch townies. The reason I haven’t been actively going after every player is I haven’t had enough time.
I suspected that would be the case as well.
@ Chickenfish:
Where?
So...you tried to avoid time being wasted discussing a tactic you didn't agree with...by discussing a tactic you didn't agree with?
Explain that logic to me.
Man, you are just oozing.
You're the only one creating a false dichotomy re: you and KCC.
What do you think of his answer to this?
You're missing something. I just don't know if it's intentional or not.
Why should she?
You're SO self conscious!!!
/dislike
@ Arnnaria:
No, that's classic WIFOM.
This is the post that initially pinged my scumdar and prompted me asking for a town/scum list. You give 0 reasons for Chickenfish and Gamora being town, then go on to say KCC is leaning scum, yet you leave yourself an out. And not just any out, like, "I may" or "I might be persuaded."
No. You said, "I'll change my mind about this."
Alright, time to tear it apart:
His reasoning for Chickenfish isn't indicative of alignment in the least. It's indicative of noob.
His reasoning for myself is just naive. I mean, I am town, so he got lucky, but I scumhunt when I'm scum, too. KCC and Gigas can vouch for this.
His reasoning for Gamora, again, is the lamest of WIFOM. Especially since not one scum worth their salt would continue pushing a case that's not going anywhere.
The KCC reasoning is OK, albeit wrong. I mean, players obviously hiding stuff is a good place to start, but it's not enough to lynch.
And? You keep making these statements, but not saying what they mean.
It's called actively lurking, and is the number one tell I have on you right now. It is the reason I think you are scum. You have the most post ITT (or second, I can't recall) yet I can't remember crap you've contributed other than self-meta, two lists with terrible reason, and olive branch extending.
Oh, good, another list. Why'd you make this?
Foxlet: I actually agree.
Chickenfish: Yeah, scum would seem genuine about it, too.
Gamora: Still WIFOM.
Zenjo: All these good points you give for scumhunting, yet you don't do it yourself. Hmm.
KCC: I thought she was leaning scum? For that same reasoning? What happened?
WG: Hmm.
Eron: Lolwut?
Battlemaster: Ironically, same as Eron. Lolwut?
What do I have to do with your vote?
@ Gamora:
You start out saying this:
10:21: Fine with vote on Arnnaria
I post @ 11:18 opposing what you said
12:13: States he's going to have a tough time getting anyone on board. I'm the only one that'd posted?
Then 12:56: Comes back saying he over-thought the post, and unvotes.
There was 0 pressure on him here, meaning he likely is telling the truth re: reasoning (that he changed his read)...but is it because he's town or scum? Hmmmm
Regarding the bolded, please quote for me who said that before you unvoted. Cause I must have missed it.
Why? Not why ever, why now?
I'm liking you more and more.
The scenario Foxlet provided is actually a bandwagon made by barning.
For the record.
@ Battlemaster:
You could not be more wrong, duders.
@ Eron:
Noob scum spew all the time.
Good eye.
This has already been said many times, but who cares? It's still early, and it was the weekend. Get over it.
Are you satisfied yet?
Stop worrying about it.
Why are you not trusting anyone to make their own decisions?
Why are you defending Arnnaria so much?
Oooh, that last line is fantastic. Insta town read.
@ KittyCupCake:
Vouching for this.
Oh, you beat me to it.
Of course you will.
Btw, if you guys are wondering, she's almost assuredly town. This is classic TFF (now KCC) town play. Yes, I can tell this early. Get over it.
@ Zenjo:
I like you. Will you be my Seppel in this game since he's not here?
This mean's I'll kiss up to you a lot cause you're one of my BFFs ITT.
This kid. Gold.
Seppel. Dude. You know better than to answer questions not directed at you.
Oh, I dig it, bby. Arnnaria first, though. Gamora's had some good posts.
@ Foxlet:
Thanks!!
@ Gigas:
this post.
I'm thirsty, Mr. Tiny.
So thirsty. >:[
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(1) KCC for not having one helpful post the whole game. I know we talked about this earlier but I thought she would have at least given us some clues or something…
(2) Arnnaria
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LOL I'll read it in the morning.
"Better drink up soon, little Manders."
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Lol. I suppose I'm fine with that. What does ITT stand for though?
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Not sure whether you’re asking for where she's asked or where she's answered, but:
A few asked for an explanation (or at least, saying that the vote with no explanation seems dodgy is an implied request for explanation).
f you mean where has she refused, I've already addressed the same question from KCC herself. As I've explained previously, simply waiting for somebody else to mention "what she's seen" and then saying "yes that's what it was" is as good as not providing an explanation at all in my mind.
Also, a lot of discussion has been created surrounding it, and now people appear to be starting to move onto other things - with KCC having posted since, you'd think that it would be a good time for her to explicitly express concern in case the town forget about who she thinks is giving of scumtells. However, this hasn't happened, so that in itself is a refusal.
I wasn't trying to avoid wasting time discussing a tactic - I was trying to avoid wasting time discussing a vote. This is why I started asking about the tactic - the vote itself had very little to discuss, and speculation on KCC's motivation would have wasted time when we simply could have been told it. Subtle difference I suppose, but it's there.
Quite a pseudo-response from you. If you're implying that this is a scumtell, I'd like to understand your interpretation. My initial vote + explanation was to generate discussion, and since then I have attempted to generate + participate in discussion. Contentless posting isn't in my interest as scum or town - saying that this is a scum tell is you seeing what you want to see.
I'm not sure where you're getting that from. I have done nothing but express that concern from the start, based on the fact that it quite quickly happened in Arnnaria's reads soon after. The false dichotomy is not at all in my interests.
For quick reference, the response in question was:
I think Arnnaria's posts are all fairly vague, so there's not much to respond to here. There will be much more to respond to once this vagueness (hopefully) evolves into Arnnaria's answer to the posts you've just written.
Once again, quite a pseudo-response. This is verging on active lurking – you aren’t making a case for anything, and are leaving the creating of content up to me. Moving past that (for now), I’ll take statement as a ‘think more and elaborate’, and here is what you get:
All I was missing was the justification of that reaction. I felt it was incredibly wishy-washy, and as such realised that the only consistency in Gamora’s posting/voting was the inconsistency. So a vote was given.
The answer is already in the bit you’ve quoted. As I’ve unfortunately done, a towny being seen as suspicious and scummy clouds the conversation, because it turns into a misguided scumhunt. Once again – you’re not actually creating content here. The real question is why shouldn’t she?
See above – me being seen as scum distracts from the actual hunt.
Apologies for the formatting nightmare – the fabrication of quotes within quotes is horrible.
As for the rest of your post, seeing as it’s not directed at me I won’t do a quote by quote (also I have to go out, so if you wish I can elaborate in a few hours), but here goes:
Arnnaria is definitely posting things with very little content. However, a lot of it appears to be what can be boiled down to noobiness (we’ll see if this continues), but also awaiting responses from people. With a post from you now Manders, I’m interested in seeing some actual opinions from Arnnaria.
Also, re you thinking my jumping in and getting over my head is potentially indicative of noob scum – I’m not a noob. Used to play all the time elsewhere… sure it’s probably a year or so since I’ve played, but if I were scum I’d be well aware that saying too much is how to get caught.
As you’ve noticed, I like to make sure my point has come across. So far the major criticism of my play I’ve seen is that I seem too defensive – this is because I try to post in a way that won’t require followup questions and everybody losing a day or 2 (real time) because of time differences. If you think there are holes in my logic, on the other hand, I think that criticism is totally valid.
There’s a lot of friendliness happening between you and KCC… not sure how much I like this based on the fact that I can’t get a solid read on KCC. At the moment I’m boiling it down to you two thinking very similarly, but this will definitely require reassessment if either of you flips scum.
Time to go! Will reread the whole thread and figured out if there’s anything more to say in a few hours…
I'll address the rest when I can actually dig in deep as I'm at work now and will probably get interrupted before I finish typing this up.
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Chickenfish posted awhile back on how he thinks KCC isn't scum, but just town trying to do her job. That pretty much convinced me to change her from leaning scum to neutral.
I know you're against this, but I want to see a list from Eron.
And to apply the pressure. Vote ErontheRelentless
If you're against lists so badly, make reads on at least 2 or 3 people. Who should we be hunting? Who has stepped up as the town hero?
You claim to be moving the discussion along, not stifling it, but you haven't given your opinion on anyone in the game yet.
Townie:
Foxlet - Hasn't been overly active but has been contributing his ideas. Hasn't done anything that makes me think he would be anything but town.
KCC - Generated a lot of discussion with the ChickenFish vote and jumpstarted real conversation. Further interactions with ChickenFish may have people splitting them town/scum. While this isn't exactly a positive thing, it isn't a scum tell either.
Scummy:
EronTheRelentless - Doesn't like lists, and brought up 3 times the players that haven't posted. If people are absent or silent, there isn't really much to talk about, and lists are important at every stage of the game, in my opinion anyway. I feel like you were trying to divert attention from conversations that were actually getting people to talk about interesting things.
Gamora - Voted arrnaria and backed down quickly. Didn't offer up any opinion on the KCC/Chickenfish thing. Talks a lot about how helpful discussion is for town, but hasn't contributed much himself.
ChickenFish - A bit overzealous while discussing KCC's vote. Demanded to get her reasoning immediately, even though she said she would later.
Still not sure where I stand with Arnnaria or Manders.
You should let simple statements from people sway you so much - not even me
As far as I recall, I've only ever said I think it's possible KCC is town doing her job in a way she sees fit. If you've got a scum read on somebody, make sure you let it go for your own reasons.
Also, before I get accused of mislead others into a vote, I genuinely mean this for everyone, including the people who have me in their sights. If something is bugging you about somebody, don't eliminate them as a possibility just because others do. Either satisfy yourself they're not, or keep them on your list.
This is semi-hypocritical, and I hope you can see why. Your posts are a lot of just agreeing with other people, or making incredibly vague statements. Happy to see you taking a solid stand finally, but still keeping in mind it's a stand that Gigas has already taken...
I initially put it down to you saying you're new, but it doesn't even really seem you've attempted to up your game. Also, as I stated in my huge response to Manders, I'd put your quiteness down to awaiting a response from Manders. You lost your suspicion because Manders said 'oh there's explanation to come', and that seemed good enough for you for the time being. The explanation did come (in spades!), and you didn't even think to respond to it? This concerns me. Greatly.
FoS: Arnnaria
...Seriously? Remind me where I demanded her reasoning for the vote, rather than question the logic behind and pointing out the potential risk of posting that way? Also, have you just glossed over the multiple times where I've said why I didn't think an explanation later would be ok?
Also confused as to how people are fine with the 'voting with no explanation is how KCC plays day 1', but not 'overexplaining is how Chickenfish plays'. I'm not going to shorten my explanations/defenses, because that how I feel I need to express myself. It's that simple.
Once again, if you have an issue with the actual things I've said, rather than how I've said them, let me know!
I've got a busy next 48 hours, so probably will only be reading/posting in the hour or so before I go to bed (currently 12.45am.. so about 24 and 48 hours from now). I'll try not to leave anything unanswered/unsaid!
I made this list to update further.
Foxlet: I'm glad we agree on something.
Chickenfish: I would see scum flailing, but Chickenfish has remained calm, cool, and collected thoughout his entire "trial."
Gamora: I need clarification on WIFOM but I will be asking my mentor.
Zenjo: I'm beginning to scumhunt now with Eron. It just took me a while to get my read on who I wanted to go after.
KCC: If Chickenfish doesn't think she's scum, I have no reason to believe she's scum. I know this is barning, but my only reason for thinking she was scum in the first place was because Chickenfish vs. KCC turned into a big deal. The more I read about KCC, the more I'm convinced she's town.
Eron and Battlemaster: seem deadset on steering the conversation away from lists and reads, but haven't provided any list or reads themselves.