If I had given him the PR, why would I have said anything about it? Moreover, why would I remove it? Why not just move on day by day, handing out the PR to everybody, making it impossible for me to lose if I were scum?
At the time I was thinking that Iso's ability was some sort of "rolling player mute" :
[Each night, choose target player. That player may only communicate by quoting unedited posts by Cyan. You may PM me {Seppel} to lift this restriction at any time. Only one player at a time may be affected, and a player is starting this game with the post restriction.]
If Iso's scum, that role makes him harder to lynch and makes it extremely difficult for whomever's targeted to play the game at all. The ability to lift it at will means...
At the time I was thinking that Iso's ability was some sort of "rolling player mute" :
[Each night, choose target player. That player may only communicate by quoting unedited posts by Cyan. You may PM me {Seppel} to lift this restriction at any time. Only one player at a time may be affected, and a player is starting this game with the post restriction.]
If Iso's scum, that role makes him harder to lynch and makes it extremely difficult for whomever's targeted to play the game at all. The ability to lift it at will means...
Yeah, makes PERFECT sense, what with the Night 0 we had, and all!
Oh, wait...
Guys, seriously. Tilde is contradicting himself and coming up with bull**** reasons as to why. There is no logical explanation for him to be coming to these conclusions and it all reeks of a massive cover-up of his attempt to make me seem scummy. And he's STILL TRYING. After it's been established that this isn't the case at all.
Quote from ~Tilde~ »
Iso's the only one who knows the details, and he's not being forthcoming.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I don't understand why there's a correlation between length and necessity of direct response.
Would the word "detail" instead of "length" suit you better? You surely understand the point I was trying to get across, quit being difficult.
Of all the people who've made similarly unsupported declarations, why are you singling out Anaklumos?
In fact, you can count yourself among that number:
Oh, the hypocracy!
Eco's point on excessive defensiveness is one that hadn't really been brought up, but succinctly describes the situation at hand re: Pinky & Arcadic. Having concrete evidence concerning the RVS was also useful. Ends that by asking WoD a strong question, and we have a quality, town oriented post.
GD's Post Restriction made it impossible for him to vote for Iso and Pinky. As Iso pointed out:
At the time I was thinking that Iso's ability was some sort of "rolling player mute" :
[Each night, choose target player. That player may only communicate by quoting unedited posts by Cyan. You may PM me {Seppel} to lift this restriction at any time. Only one player at a time may be affected, and a player is starting this game with the post restriction.]
If Iso's scum, that role makes him harder to lynch and makes it extremely difficult for whomever's targeted to play the game at all. The ability to lift it at will means...
Iso's the only one who knows the details, and he's not being forthcoming.
Put away the crackpot conspiracy theories, man. It's serving as a massive distraction for you, Iso, and everyone else by association.
Iso, you didn't really address Cyouni's question to you there. Why not?
Whaddya mean? I answered his question as to why it was impossible. You started the game with the PR, yes?
Quote from ganderin_dan »
Vote for SO, then.
Negative. I'm more concerned about getting rid of Tilde sooner rather than later. He's already proving difficult to lynch, as people are excusing his behavior left and right. Some One is a small fry. He may be scum, but I have no doubt in my mind that he'll slip up plenty for us to get to it later. If he's scum, that means I also have to re-analyze my choice between iLord and Anak. Frankly, I'm not looking to do that at this point in time, and it will be much easier later on when there is more content. If you can find any inconsistencies in my case against Tilde, please address them, because otherwise, you have no hope of convincing me that Tilde isn't scum at this point.
Quote from ganderin_dan »
Put away the crackpot conspiracy theories, man. It's serving as a massive distraction for you, Iso, and everyone else by association.
They're not crackpot conspiracy theories, they're just dead wrong and he knows it. Why are you waving off his behavior? Tilde is hoping to get me lynched, and that should be obvious by now, though it should be evident that none of his "theories" hold any merit by the responses I have provided to them.
Tilde, anyone else, please address my case against Tilde and give me reason as to why Tilde shouldn't be today's lynch.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I fully agree with Iso's points regarding Some One's #242. It was a complete reversal from his prior stance on Iso, and I would love to hear Some One's explanation.
Quote from Ecophagy »
Now that you bring it up Iso, it is really weird that SO is worried but thinks you're town. If he trusts that you're town, he shouldn't be trying to pull info out of you.
His content was nothing worth waiting for, and I'd like to pressure this guy.
Vote SomeOne
This isn't quite the contradiction that I'm concerned with, as there exist a number of ways to resolve this apparent discrepancy.
What I am concerned with is how Some One's language prior to #242 was noticeably unfavorable towards Iso's claim. In #242, however, he softened his position considerably, reverting it almost to neutrality and asserting, quite fallaciously, that he had never asked Iso to explain what he did. Most plausibly, this was a reaction to Iso's #239 and ganderin's #240, indicating a complete absence of genuine opinion.
-----------------------------
On the topic of ganderin's #240, I received from it the distinct sense of a predator pouncing upon weakness. After Some One's #235, he attacked unnecessarily each statement from Some One's post, even the relatively innocuous statements like Some One's comment regarding Anaklusmos.
-----------------------------
Quote from Arcadic »
@Ilord : No, i simply cut it out on accident or missed it. I did have to find the games, but i knew that in the past i had seen scum attempt or actually end the RVS by pushing or voting someone for very weak reasoning. Yes, Sep seems to have ended the RVS in Conflux, but its not until Eco pushes the issue that other players accept its death in that game. (directed @ Eco as well here)
Just out of curiosity, how do you perceive RVS's normally end?
Quote from pinky »
1) I did ask my question about RVS to get discussion going. I read the rules on how deadline is determined and I had figured in my mind that scum would coast by and deadline could be reached quickly if a discussion did not occur.
So you were concerned that without your post, we would have lost Activity Points?
Quote from ganderin »
Quote from iLord »
I don't understand why there's a correlation between length and necessity of direct response.
Would the word "detail" instead of "length" suit you better? You surely understand the point I was trying to get across, quit being difficult.
I'm afraid I don't - detail doesn't make the correlation make any more sense.
Iso additionally has confirmed himself that his case wasn't addressed towards Tilde. I'm unsure what you're trying to argue here.
Quote from Iso »
They're not crackpot conspiracy theories, they're just dead wrong and he knows it. Why are you waving off his behavior? Tilde is hoping to get me lynched, and that should be obvious by now, though it should be evident that none of his "theories" hold any merit by the responses I have provided to them.
As before, I still cannot distinguish anything in his convoluted theories that indicates malicious intent. They're ridiculous and senseless, but town just as often as scum misinterprets gratuitously when trapped in the throes of tunnel vision.
What I am bothered by is the fact that Tilde isn't even bothering to defend his ideas.
@Tilde: What is your interpretation of the game state right now?
@Ilord : No, i simply cut it out on accident or missed it. I did have to find the games, but i knew that in the past i had seen scum attempt or actually end the RVS by pushing or voting someone for very weak reasoning. Yes, Sep seems to have ended the RVS in Conflux, but its not until Eco pushes the issue that other players accept its death in that game. (directed @ Eco as well here)
I would argue that Sepiriel's outrageous accusations forced me into responding - I initially ignored them, as he pointed out.
Still, when exactly the RVS ends is very fuzzy, and can be defined in any number of ways. I'd say it's when the first serious vote is made, but you seem to be saying that it ends when everyone has stopped randomly voting. In any case, I do not believe you are correct that scum tend to try to end the RVS.
What I am bothered by is the fact that Tilde isn't even bothering to defend his ideas.
@Tilde: What is your interpretation of the game state right now?
I figure at this point, you can't argue with Iso, so I'm going to just sit down and let him get his demagoguery out of his system. He wants to be the squeaky wheel, fine. I know that he's wrong about me.
Vote WOD
His leap onto pinky's case and his vote reeks. He's voting me not based on meta, but can't really explain why his vote is on me? If i was looking for an easy lynch outta pinky with my vote, then why does he think pinky was an easy lynch?
Also, that mis-rep isn't a mis-rep. Its discerning motive. Which apparently isn't helpful and i should stop being a bad boy.
Firstly, you'll want to bold that vote. Secondly - did you not read this post?
That right there is my reasoning.
I didn't say she IS an easy lynch, I said you looked like scum looking for an easy lynch, which conveniently is what you accused her of.
Discerning motive, misrepresentation - whatever you want to call it, what you did there looks bad to me.
I like the points brought up against Some One, so I'm going to do something somewhat uncharacteristic and FOS Some One
-----------------------------
On the topic of ganderin's #240, I received from it the distinct sense of a predator pouncing upon weakness. After Some One's #235, he attacked unnecessarily each statement from Some One's post, even the relatively innocuous statements like Some One's comment regarding Anaklusmos.
-----------------------------
While you may feel this way, I can guarantee gan_dan is town.
Quote from iLord »
Iso additionally has confirmed himself that his case wasn't addressed towards Tilde. I'm unsure what you're trying to argue here.
Most cases are an appeal to the masses to lynch the subject of the case. However, it is commonplace to actually address cases directed towards you.
Quote from iLord »
As before, I still cannot distinguish anything in his convoluted theories that indicates malicious intent. They're ridiculous and senseless, but town just as often as scum misinterprets gratuitously when trapped in the throes of tunnel vision.
What I am bothered by is the fact that Tilde isn't even bothering to defend his ideas.
It is far easier to detect malice when it is directed to oneself.
I figure at this point, you can't argue with Iso, so I'm going to just sit down and let him get his demagoguery out of his system. He wants to be the squeaky wheel, fine. I know that he's wrong about me.
Oh look, another scum tell: Dismissal of points brought against oneself without explanation or rationale, while not answering questions directly asked. "I'm town because I'm town and I know I'm town" does not fly as a defense.
Anyone else convinced? I'm not.
There's no demagoguery in my system, Tilde. I will push for your lynch until you are dead. And every post only makes me want to vote for you harder in how you are responding.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I figure at this point, you can't argue with Iso, so I'm going to just sit down and let him get his demagoguery out of his system. He wants to be the squeaky wheel, fine. I know that he's wrong about me.
You misunderstand me. What do you currently believe happened with Iso/ganderin?
While you may feel this way, I can guarantee gan_dan is town.
I can't simply take your word for it.
Quote from Iso »
Most cases are an appeal to the masses to lynch the subject of the case. However, it is commonplace to actually address cases directed towards you.
Really, a case can be intended either way. A case directed towards the target would involve direct questions and accusations that the casemaker is interested in seeing answered (or more likely, believes that there are no easy answers). A case directed towards the town would be defined more by interpretations and analysis. For example, arguments like "Since PLAYER1 did THIS right here, he is scummy because he's thinking THIS" really leaves the target no room for explanation other than "I wasn't thinking THIS."
Looking back on the case, it actually seems like Tilde should address the many points where you labeled him as illogical. Whereas I focused more upon the implications of his behavior, Tilde should really be trying to justify it.
Quote from Iso »
It is far easier to detect malice when it is directed to oneself.
I believe people are simply more inclined to detect malice when attacked, regardless of its existence.
Really, a case can be intended either way. A case directed towards the target would involve direct questions and accusations that the casemaker is interested in seeing answered (or more likely, believes that there are no easy answers). A case directed towards the town would be defined more by interpretations and analysis. For example, arguments like "Since PLAYER1 did THIS right here, he is scummy because he's thinking THIS" really leaves the target no room for explanation other than "I wasn't thinking THIS."
A fair point. I would, of course, like the issue of why Tilde continues his illogical tirades despite them being proven wrong to be addressed by Tilde.
Quote from iLord »
Looking back on the case, it actually seems like Tilde should address the many points where you labeled him as illogical. Whereas I focused more upon the implications of his behavior, Tilde should really be trying to justify it.
I can understand why you would. Could you explain to me why you did not seem to follow my train of thought in discerning Tilde's motives for his actions?
Quote from iLord »
I believe people are simply more inclined to detect malice when attacked, regardless of its existence.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
If you never confirm that your knowledge is mechanical in source before you die, I would not.
Quote from Iso »
A fair point. I would, of course, like the issue of why Tilde continues his illogical tirades despite them being proven wrong to be addressed by Tilde.
I think this would be a fruitless query - Tilde could easily assert that they are not illogical, which is what he has effectively done.
It's obvious that Tilde formulated much of his theories without consideration of certain information that is now readily available in the thread. In particular, I would like to know what he presently believes so that we may better understand his position.
Quote from Iso »
I can understand why you would. Could you explain to me why you did not seem to follow my train of thought in discerning Tilde's motives for his actions?
In essence, you believe Tilde is pushing his ideas even though he knows they are bad in a poor attempt to get certain players lynched.
I believe that Tilde is genuinely voicing his own thoughts which are irreparably colored by what he wants to see rather than what is actually there. I don't believe that he harbors any realistic hope that he can lead the lynch of any player with these ideas alone. This is based on my limited experience with Tilde, both from reading his games and playing with him, in which he displayed similar behavior regardless of alignment.
Quote from pinky »
Concern, not the word I would used. I would say I did it based on theory and evalution. Both were a factor when I made my question.
Quite honestly, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I'll rephrase my question to avoid the use of "concern." In response to your comment here:
Quote from pinky »
1) I did ask my question about RVS to get discussion going. I read the rules on how deadline is determined and I had figured in my mind that scum would coast by and deadline could be reached quickly if a discussion did not occur.
Did you criticize the random votes because you felt that if you did not do so, the deadline would be reached more quickly?
If you never confirm that your knowledge is mechanical in source before you die, I would not.
Then let's say it is.
[QUOT=iLord]I think this would be a fruitless query - Tilde could easily assert that they are not illogical, which is what he has effectively done.[/QUOTE]
I have not quite seen where he addressed the issue. Please show me.
Quote from iLord »
It's obvious that Tilde formulated much of his theories without consideration of certain information that is now readily available in the thread. In particular, I would like to know what he presently believes so that we may better understand his position
I agree with the last sentence, however, the information that he was basing his fallacious theories on was present in the thread at the time, I had simply not directly pointed out that it was.
Quote from iLord »
In essence, you believe Tilde is pushing his ideas even though he knows they are bad in a poor attempt to get certain players lynched.
Correct.
Quote from iLord »
I believe that Tilde is genuinely voicing his own thoughts which are irreparably colored by what he wants to see rather than what is actually there. I don't believe that he harbors any realistic hope that he can lead the lynch of any player with these ideas alone. This is based on my limited experience with Tilde, both from reading his games and playing with him, in which he displayed similar behavior regardless of alignment.
So if you agree that Tilde does this regardless of alignment, why are you waving it off? You may consider it not indicative of his alignment, but why not consider the possibility that it is a scum tell? You are handwaving my argument based solely on meta. Can you explain a possible town motivation for presenting theories that attempt to smear two members of the town despite all information in the thread pointing to the clear fact that he shouldn't?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I think this would be a fruitless query - Tilde could easily assert that they are not illogical, which is what he has effectively done.
I have not quite seen where he addressed the issue. Please show me.
His #258 effectively asserts that he believes he is being logical and that you are not.
Quote from Iso »
I agree with the last sentence, however, the information that he was basing his fallacious theories on was present in the thread at the time, I had simply not directly pointed out that it was.
Indeed. Hence, why I am interested in how he will attempt to reconcile his views with what you have pointed out.
Quote from Iso »
So if you agree that Tilde does this regardless of alignment, why are you waving it off? You may consider it not indicative of his alignment, but why not consider the possibility that it is a scum tell? You are handwaving my argument based solely on meta. Can you explain a possible town motivation for presenting theories that attempt to smear two members of the town despite all information in the thread pointing to the clear fact that he shouldn't?
I'm not waving it off - I'm giving each of his actions my full consideration. It is only with such consideration that I have found his behavior so far inconclusive with regards to alignment.
I sense your frustration with Tilde's playstyle giving him a free pass, but rest assured that it is not all-encompassing. For example, the fact that Tilde has not defended his position at all is concerning. He has attributed this behavior to his belief that you are being unreasonable - I hope that he will respond in a more favorable manner when prompted by me.
There is little town motivation for such "smearing." However, a stubborn and misled townie's actions could easily be mistaken for "smearing."
You misunderstand me. What do you currently believe happened with Iso/ganderin?
The theory that is most plausible to me, right now, is that Iso used some sort of Humility effect on GD to remove the PR, or that a scumbuddy of Iso's did it and Iso's taking the credit to garner town points.
The theory that is most plausible to me, right now, is that Iso used some sort of Humility effect on GD to remove the PR, or that a scumbuddy of Iso's did it and Iso's taking the credit to garner town points.
What bearing do you feel this has on Iso/ganderin's alignments?
What bearing do you feel this has on Iso/ganderin's alignments?
It pushes GD into "strong town read". Iso gets "middling scum" because while a Humility role is usually a scummy role (it's a perma-blocker), I can see Seppel putting on a town as a countermeasure to the PR, or just "4 teh lulz".
Why does it seem I'm the only one who sees Iso's line of play as awkward? It's like he was scum trying to earn brownie points from the town for helping out GD. But, I don't think he's scum.
Seriously. Is anyone else seeing this? Fishing expedition, fence-sit so hard we can see the post coming out of his mouth, and then says "OH I GOT CALLED ON FISHING WELL I DIDN'T REALLY WANT AN ANSWER LOL"
Misrepresentation all day. Look at the EXACT question I wanted an answer to. Just because I haven't played recently doesn't mean I didn't word the question REALLY carefully to be as specific to what I wanted as possible.
He says it "bothers" him, but that he doesn't think I'm scum.
You provided more info than should be out in the open. Yeah, it bothers me. Why do 11 people need to know you DID something?
Well, why would it bother him if he doesn't think I'm scum?
See above.
And to address why I claimed responsibility to begin with: dan is 100% town in my mind. If he posted with this PR for his first few posts and SUDDENLY, he could talk, wouldn't you wonder what the hell happened? Would you not be suspicious of him? I claimed the responsibility of removing his PR because I didn't want dan to get mislynched on the chance that everyone was like, "HAY WTF HAPEND???"
Umm...you could claim responsibility later and then we'd have a whole case to evaluate?
It pushes GD into "strong town read". Iso gets "middling scum" because while a Humility role is usually a scummy role (it's a perma-blocker), I can see Seppel putting on a town as a countermeasure to the PR, or just "4 teh lulz".
Why is ganderin not visibly upset at being deprived of his abilities?
Why is ganderin given a "strong town read" for simply having his PR taken away?
Why does it seem I'm the only one who sees Iso's line of play as awkward? It's like he was scum trying to earn brownie points from the town for helping out GD. But, I don't think he's scum.
Err... What?
You think it looks like he was scum trying to earn brownie points, but you don't think he's scum?
Quote from Some One »
Misrepresentation all day. Look at the EXACT question I wanted an answer to. Just because I haven't played recently doesn't mean I didn't word the question REALLY carefully to be as specific to what I wanted as possible.
Looking back:
Quote from Some One »
Did we not get a direct answer from Iso as to WTF happened for him to get GD to talk?
I have MUCH more to say on this topic, but would love that question to be answered first.
Quote from Some One »
Never did I say I wanted Iso to tell us what happened.
It sounds exactly like you want an direct answer from Iso as to what happened.
Quote from Some One »
Umm...you could claim responsibility later and then we'd have a whole case to evaluate?
He didn't do the gagging, my PR was my ability (or lack thereof) in my PM.
As for the "town read" I have on him? If Iso manages to get lynched and flips scum, then we can re-evaluate, but at the moment, I think odds are low that both Iso and GD are scum and this PR affair was some kind of gambit on their part.
His #258 effectively asserts that he believes he is being logical and that you are not.
Sorry, when you said "effectively", I thought you mean in an effective manner.
Quote from iLord »
Indeed. Hence, why I am interested in how he will attempt to reconcile his views with what you have pointed out.
Which he has once again failed to address.
Quote from iLord »
I'm not waving it off - I'm giving each of his actions my full consideration. It is only with such consideration that I have found his behavior so far inconclusive with regards to alignment.
How about now that he's STILL PUSHING THE ISSUE AND AVOIDING MY QUESTIONS?
Quote from iLord »
I sense your frustration with Tilde's playstyle giving him a free pass, but rest assured that it is not all-encompassing. For example, the fact that Tilde has not defended his position at all is concerning. He has attributed this behavior to his belief that you are being unreasonable - I hope that he will respond in a more favorable manner when prompted by me.
And how do you feel now that he has once again failed to do so?
Quote from iLord »
There is little town motivation for such "smearing." However, a stubborn and misled townie's actions could easily be mistaken for "smearing."
It has been proven that his theories cannot possibly be true and he is still harping on them. How is that anything but smearing? He can't be simply misled if he's been corrected.
The theory that is most plausible to me, right now, is that Iso used some sort of Humility effect on GD to remove the PR, or that a scumbuddy of Iso's did it and Iso's taking the credit to garner town points.
How do you still think this is a viable possibility when it has been proven that nobody could have possibly induced dan's PR, sans the mod?
Why does it seem I'm the only one who sees Iso's line of play as awkward? It's like he was scum trying to earn brownie points from the town for helping out GD. But, I don't think he's scum.
Misrepresentation all day. Look at the EXACT question I wanted an answer to. Just because I haven't played recently doesn't mean I didn't word the question REALLY carefully to be as specific to what I wanted as possible.
Seems clear as day to me that you wanted the issue addressed and then when we called you out for fishing you backpedaled on the matter. That's hardly a misrepresentation. Why did you feel the need to be so careful, so specific? You are giving off so many language tells, dude. Is there a reason you're being self-incriminating?
Quote from Some One »
You provided more info than should be out in the open. Yeah, it bothers me. Why do 11 people need to know you DID something?
Uhh, once again, so that ganderin_dan, who I am confirming as town, did not get mislynched for SUDDENLY, NO POST RESTRICTION.
Quote from Some One »
Umm...you could claim responsibility later and then we'd have a whole case to evaluate?
At that point, it would be WIFOM, unprovable, and we would have a possible mislynch in g_d on our hands. Not on my watch. Anyway, by claiming my removal of g_d's PR, I've successfully outed Tilde as scum.
Quote from Some One »
Yeah.
Explain how these thoughts are cohesive when put together, then.
Quote from Some One »
Hopefully I changed your mind a little bit.
Why are you so concerned about how WoD views you?
iLord seems to have hit the other points regarding you.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
As for the "town read" I have on him? If Iso manages to get lynched and flips scum, then we can re-evaluate, but at the moment, I think odds are low that both Iso and GD are scum and this PR affair was some kind of gambit on their part.
How would we have created such a gambit, were we both scum? If ganderin_dan flips scum, how does that change your view of my alignment? Why would dan have spent 4-5 hours researching Cyan quotes if that were the case? Why include the bit about only able to vote for people Cyan has voted for? Seems a bit elaborate to me, and once again, grasping at straws in a feeble attempt to paint me as scum. Can we lynch Tilde already?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Ganderin said his posting rescrition WAS his ability :
Quote from ganderin »
He didn't do the gagging, my PR was my ability (or lack thereof) in my PM.
As for the "town read" I have on him? If Iso manages to get lynched and flips scum, then we can re-evaluate, but at the moment, I think odds are low that both Iso and GD are scum and this PR affair was some kind of gambit on their part.
This actually makes a lot more sense that I initially gave it credit for.
That being said, I believe you are misinterpreting ganderin's post - he doesn't explicitly state whether PR was his only "ability," and with good reason.
I also agree with you that it is unlikely that Iso and ganderin are on a scumteam together.
A few more questions:
Why would scumIso use this ability on ganderin, which was guaranteed to provide at least some benefit to the town?
Why do you think scumIso would publicly claim using this ability on ganderin? If ganderin had claimed that he loss other abilities as a result of Iso's action, couldn't his action dangerously backfire?
I will only do this if we have a massclaim. Which I fully support come Day 2.
I will also be claiming last to optimize massclaim efficiency. I have my reasons that I will not be sharing until I claim and I will consider any actions taken to oust further information about my ability as anti-town.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
And how do you feel now that he has once again failed to do so?
I'm working on reconstructing his mindset, and he's proving very accommodating in answering my questions. Believe it or not, it is actually more coherent than either of us believed.
Quote from Iso »
Quote from iLord »
There is little town motivation for such "smearing." However, a stubborn and misled townie's actions could easily be mistaken for "smearing."
It has been proven that his theories cannot possibly be true and he is still harping on them. How is that anything but smearing? He can't be simply misled if he's been corrected.
Continuing onward even when shown evidence to the contrary is the "stubborn" part of my description.
Quote from Iso »
Quote from Tilde »
The theory that is most plausible to me, right now, is that Iso used some sort of Humility effect on GD to remove the PR, or that a scumbuddy of Iso's did it and Iso's taking the credit to garner town points.
How do you still think this is a viable possibility when it has been proven that nobody could have possibly induced dan's PR, sans the mod?
What he is trying to say here is that he believes that the PR is part of GD's role, and that your ability removes all abilities (not just PR's). He has supported this with ganderin's post here:
Not exactly the conclusion I would've made, as he's assuming more than can be safely assumed, but I can see the thought process.
Which is a fair guess, I can see he's trying as hard as he can to figure out what my ability is (for what town-driven reasons I cannot imagine), but my point being that he's still trying to find some way to paint me as scum, regardless of what my ability is. If you'll notice, he changes his stance on the matter every time evidence points to the contrary of his theories. Why is Tilde putting forth so much effort to paint me as scummy, regardless of how pro-town my actions may be?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Which is a fair guess, I can see he's trying as hard as he can to figure out what my ability is (for what town-driven reasons I cannot imagine), but my point being that he's still trying to find some way to paint me as scum, regardless of what my ability is. If you'll notice, he changes his stance on the matter every time evidence points to the contrary of his theories. Why is Tilde putting forth so much effort to paint me as scummy, regardless of how pro-town my actions may be?
scumTilde interpretation: He irrationally wants to get you lynched even though he doesn't think you're scum. In doing so, he tries to force everything to fit in a world where you're scum.
townTilde interpretation: He irrationally wants to get you lynched because he actually thinks you're scum. In doing so, he tries to force everything to fit in a world where you're scum.
The issue isn't his intent, it's his rationale. You obviously have received an impression of undeniable malice. It is unfortunate that it is so difficult to convincingly impress your personal perceptions upon another, because neither of us appears to be able to convince the other over the existence of such malice.
Quote from Iso »
Also, your stance on a Day 2 massclaim?
I'd rather not talk about that right now. Positions concerning massclaims tend to reveal more about the players' roles than they would like, and I'd prefer to cross that bridge once we get there.
Did you criticize the random votes because you felt that if you did not do so, the deadline would be reached more quickly?
Can you stop trying to do a dance with me? I feel very much like your trying to lead me. I stated why I did my question. I did the RVS for multiple reason's.
Not just one reason.
I did it for reaction
I did it because of the rules and getting discussion going
I did it because I'm not used to people that vote for no reason and the few times I have run across it people were scum.
I don't know if anyone else would start a discussion. I don't think about those things and I don't see the point of not asking questions and moving past the RVS stage quickly.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am female, hear me roar!
mafia win/lose record
town (12) 6/6
mafia (2) 2/0
Cult (1) 1/0
3rd party (0) 0/0
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Can you stop trying to do a dance with me? I feel very much like your trying to lead me. I stated why I did my question. I did the RVS for multiple reason's.
Not just one reason.
I did it for reaction
I did it because of the rules and getting discussion going
I did it because I'm not used to people that vote for no reason and the few times I have run across it people were scum.
I don't know if anyone else would start a discussion. I don't think about those things and I don't see the point of not asking questions and moving past the RVS stage quickly.
I'm simply asking you to elaborate on what you mean. Here's what has just progressed:
Quote from pinky, Post 250 »
1) I did ask my question about RVS to get discussion going. I read the rules on how deadline is determined and I had figured in my mind that scum would coast by and deadline could be reached quickly if a discussion did not occur.
Quote from iLord, Post 256 »
So you were concerned that without your post, we would have lost Activity Points?
Quote from pinky, Post 264 »
Concern, not the word I would used. I would say I did it based on theory and evalution. Both were a factor when I made my question.
Quote from iLord, Post 265 »
Quite honestly, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I'll rephrase my question to avoid the use of "concern." In response to your comment here:
Did you criticize the random votes because you felt that if you did not do so, the deadline would be reached more quickly?
Can you stop trying to do a dance with me? I feel very much like your trying to lead me. I stated why I did my question. I did the RVS for multiple reason's.
Not just one reason.
I did it for reaction
I did it because of the rules and getting discussion going
I did it because I'm not used to people that vote for no reason and the few times I have run across it people were scum.
I don't know if anyone else would start a discussion. I don't think about those things and I don't see the point of not asking questions and moving past the RVS stage quickly.
Questions:
What sort of reactions were you looking for?
How did the deadline rules influence your post?
Are you saying that you considered all of these aspects before making your post?
Quote from Iso »
iLord, why would scumTilde think I'm scum? How is it irrational for scum to want to lynch town?
You understand my intent. Changes in bold below.
Quote from iLord »
scumTilde interpretation: He wants to get you lynched in an irrational manner even though he knows you're not scum. In doing so, he tries to force everything to fit in a world where you're scum.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I wish Tilde hadn't brought this back up, but yeah, I'm vanilla outside of my PR. Breadcrumbed on the post he quoted, and #74, where I answered yes to the 3rd item in his list.
I considered posting this in my first big catchup post. I also considered asking to be lynched as a result.
Fair enough. So at this point in time, which Tilde seems more likely to you, town or scum? And why?
I'm more inclined to say town. I was moderately concerned that he was attempting to keep up his meta by purposely interjecting random ideas into the thread in order to use it as a catch-all, but it appears that his thought process is actually legitimate and easily followed. Regardless, it's not a very strong read in either regard.
I wish Tilde hadn't brought this back up, but yeah, I'm vanilla outside of my PR. Breadcrumbed on the post he quoted, and #74, where I answered yes to the 3rd item in his list.
I considered posting this in my first big catchup post. I also considered asking to be lynched as a result.
You didn't have to bring this up. We were being purposely vague so as to not out you either way. And I don't see how being vanilla necessitates your lynch?
I'm more inclined to say town. I was moderately concerned that he was attempting to keep up his meta by purposely interjecting random ideas into the thread in order to use it as a catch-all, but it appears that his thought process is actually legitimate and easily followed. Regardless, it's not a very strong read in either regard.
Anyone can fabricate a reason for a poor idea, legitimate or not.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Anyone can fabricate a reason for a poor idea, legitimate or not.
Doing so is more difficult that perhaps you would believe. But yes, it is not implausible that scumTilde could conceive of such an explanation - I simply believe it is marginally more likely for townTilde to do so.
I'm posting to not get replaced. Sorry I haven't been active this game, I've been really busy with applying to colleges and other school related work. I'll be able to do better in a few days. I'll try to get caught up tomorrow.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Why would scumIso use this ability on ganderin, which was guaranteed to provide at least some benefit to the town?
Why do you think scumIso would publicly claim using this ability on ganderin? If ganderin had claimed that he loss other abilities as a result of Iso's action, couldn't his action dangerously backfire?
You {Iso} would remove it to earn townie points with everyone. That is not hard to see.
It could've backfired, but GD was probably a much safer target than anyone else Iso could have used it on. Even if GD had something along the lines of DayCop and DayVig powers in addition to the PR, getting rid of all of them for the sake of letting GD be able to play normally might be forgiven by everyone.
It could've backfired, but GD was probably a much safer target than anyone else Iso could have used it on. Even if GD had something along the lines of DayCop and DayVig powers in addition to the PR, getting rid of all of them for the sake of letting GD be able to play normally might be forgiven by everyone.
GD had the PR and no other abilities from the start.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Why does it seem I'm the only one who sees Iso's line of play as awkward? It's like he was scum trying to earn brownie points from the town for helping out GD. But, I don't think he's scum.
This is some epic fence-sitting. If you don't think he's scum, he's not trying to earn brownie points, is he?
SO's following post #272 is bad as well - using "lol" twice in a nervous attempt to brush off arguments and appealing directly to WoD. I still don't see any useful content - not even what was promised in #235.
It could've backfired, but GD was probably a much safer target than anyone else Iso could have used it on. Even if GD had something along the lines of DayCop and DayVig powers in addition to the PR, getting rid of all of them for the sake of letting GD be able to play normally might be forgiven by everyone.
Why wouldn't Iso use his ability unannounced if his ability seems so scummy when claimed?
It sounds exactly like you want an direct answer from Iso as to what happened.
I don't know how you reason that.
I said "DID WE get an answer..."
- The question was not solely directed at him
- The question was in the past tense.
- The answer to the question would be found from information already present in the thread.
Would you believe him later?
Yeah. Why not? If GD has no idea what happened and no one counter-claims him...what other possibility is there?
This is some epic fence-sitting. If you don't think he's scum, he's not trying to earn brownie points, is he?
NO, and that's the point - that I don't think that's the case.
SO's following post #272 is bad as well - using "lol" twice in a nervous attempt to brush off arguments and appealing directly to WoD. I still don't see any useful content - not even what was promised in #235.
Or a tip of the hat to the fact that I don't take orders. A demand for content isn't exactly an argument.
GD's Post Restriction made it impossible for him to vote for Iso and Pinky. As Iso pointed out:
At the time I was thinking that Iso's ability was some sort of "rolling player mute" :
[Each night, choose target player. That player may only communicate by quoting unedited posts by Cyan. You may PM me {Seppel} to lift this restriction at any time. Only one player at a time may be affected, and a player is starting this game with the post restriction.]
If Iso's scum, that role makes him harder to lynch and makes it extremely difficult for whomever's targeted to play the game at all. The ability to lift it at will means...
Iso's the only one who knows the details, and he's not being forthcoming.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
Yeah, makes PERFECT sense, what with the Night 0 we had, and all!
Oh, wait...
Guys, seriously. Tilde is contradicting himself and coming up with bull**** reasons as to why. There is no logical explanation for him to be coming to these conclusions and it all reeks of a massive cover-up of his attempt to make me seem scummy. And he's STILL TRYING. After it's been established that this isn't the case at all.
With good reason.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Would the word "detail" instead of "length" suit you better? You surely understand the point I was trying to get across, quit being difficult.
Oh, the hypocracy!
Eco's point on excessive defensiveness is one that hadn't really been brought up, but succinctly describes the situation at hand re: Pinky & Arcadic. Having concrete evidence concerning the RVS was also useful. Ends that by asking WoD a strong question, and we have a quality, town oriented post.
Vote for SO, then.
Put away the crackpot conspiracy theories, man. It's serving as a massive distraction for you, Iso, and everyone else by association.
Whaddya mean? I answered his question as to why it was impossible. You started the game with the PR, yes?
Negative. I'm more concerned about getting rid of Tilde sooner rather than later. He's already proving difficult to lynch, as people are excusing his behavior left and right. Some One is a small fry. He may be scum, but I have no doubt in my mind that he'll slip up plenty for us to get to it later. If he's scum, that means I also have to re-analyze my choice between iLord and Anak. Frankly, I'm not looking to do that at this point in time, and it will be much easier later on when there is more content. If you can find any inconsistencies in my case against Tilde, please address them, because otherwise, you have no hope of convincing me that Tilde isn't scum at this point.
They're not crackpot conspiracy theories, they're just dead wrong and he knows it. Why are you waving off his behavior? Tilde is hoping to get me lynched, and that should be obvious by now, though it should be evident that none of his "theories" hold any merit by the responses I have provided to them.
Tilde, anyone else, please address my case against Tilde and give me reason as to why Tilde shouldn't be today's lynch.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
This isn't quite the contradiction that I'm concerned with, as there exist a number of ways to resolve this apparent discrepancy.
What I am concerned with is how Some One's language prior to #242 was noticeably unfavorable towards Iso's claim. In #242, however, he softened his position considerably, reverting it almost to neutrality and asserting, quite fallaciously, that he had never asked Iso to explain what he did. Most plausibly, this was a reaction to Iso's #239 and ganderin's #240, indicating a complete absence of genuine opinion.
-----------------------------
On the topic of ganderin's #240, I received from it the distinct sense of a predator pouncing upon weakness. After Some One's #235, he attacked unnecessarily each statement from Some One's post, even the relatively innocuous statements like Some One's comment regarding Anaklusmos.
-----------------------------
Just out of curiosity, how do you perceive RVS's normally end?
So you were concerned that without your post, we would have lost Activity Points?
I'm afraid I don't - detail doesn't make the correlation make any more sense.
Iso additionally has confirmed himself that his case wasn't addressed towards Tilde. I'm unsure what you're trying to argue here.
As before, I still cannot distinguish anything in his convoluted theories that indicates malicious intent. They're ridiculous and senseless, but town just as often as scum misinterprets gratuitously when trapped in the throes of tunnel vision.
What I am bothered by is the fact that Tilde isn't even bothering to defend his ideas.
@Tilde: What is your interpretation of the game state right now?
My Custom Set: Solescurio
I would argue that Sepiriel's outrageous accusations forced me into responding - I initially ignored them, as he pointed out.
Still, when exactly the RVS ends is very fuzzy, and can be defined in any number of ways. I'd say it's when the first serious vote is made, but you seem to be saying that it ends when everyone has stopped randomly voting. In any case, I do not believe you are correct that scum tend to try to end the RVS.
Also, you want to bold your vote.
I figure at this point, you can't argue with Iso, so I'm going to just sit down and let him get his demagoguery out of his system. He wants to be the squeaky wheel, fine. I know that he's wrong about me.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
That right there is my reasoning.
I didn't say she IS an easy lynch, I said you looked like scum looking for an easy lynch, which conveniently is what you accused her of.
Discerning motive, misrepresentation - whatever you want to call it, what you did there looks bad to me.
I like the points brought up against Some One, so I'm going to do something somewhat uncharacteristic and FOS Some One
While you may feel this way, I can guarantee gan_dan is town.
Most cases are an appeal to the masses to lynch the subject of the case. However, it is commonplace to actually address cases directed towards you.
It is far easier to detect malice when it is directed to oneself.
Oh look, another scum tell: Dismissal of points brought against oneself without explanation or rationale, while not answering questions directly asked. "I'm town because I'm town and I know I'm town" does not fly as a defense.
Anyone else convinced? I'm not.
There's no demagoguery in my system, Tilde. I will push for your lynch until you are dead. And every post only makes me want to vote for you harder in how you are responding.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You misunderstand me. What do you currently believe happened with Iso/ganderin?
I can't simply take your word for it.
Really, a case can be intended either way. A case directed towards the target would involve direct questions and accusations that the casemaker is interested in seeing answered (or more likely, believes that there are no easy answers). A case directed towards the town would be defined more by interpretations and analysis. For example, arguments like "Since PLAYER1 did THIS right here, he is scummy because he's thinking THIS" really leaves the target no room for explanation other than "I wasn't thinking THIS."
Looking back on the case, it actually seems like Tilde should address the many points where you labeled him as illogical. Whereas I focused more upon the implications of his behavior, Tilde should really be trying to justify it.
I believe people are simply more inclined to detect malice when attacked, regardless of its existence.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
How about when I flip town if I die?
A fair point. I would, of course, like the issue of why Tilde continues his illogical tirades despite them being proven wrong to be addressed by Tilde.
I can understand why you would. Could you explain to me why you did not seem to follow my train of thought in discerning Tilde's motives for his actions?
I assure you that it exists.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Concern, not the word I would used. I would say I did it based on theory and evalution. Both were a factor when I made my question.
mafia win/lose record
town (12) 6/6
mafia (2) 2/0
Cult (1) 1/0
3rd party (0) 0/0
mafia record
Also known at mafiascum as farside22
If you never confirm that your knowledge is mechanical in source before you die, I would not.
I think this would be a fruitless query - Tilde could easily assert that they are not illogical, which is what he has effectively done.
It's obvious that Tilde formulated much of his theories without consideration of certain information that is now readily available in the thread. In particular, I would like to know what he presently believes so that we may better understand his position.
In essence, you believe Tilde is pushing his ideas even though he knows they are bad in a poor attempt to get certain players lynched.
I believe that Tilde is genuinely voicing his own thoughts which are irreparably colored by what he wants to see rather than what is actually there. I don't believe that he harbors any realistic hope that he can lead the lynch of any player with these ideas alone. This is based on my limited experience with Tilde, both from reading his games and playing with him, in which he displayed similar behavior regardless of alignment.
Quite honestly, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I'll rephrase my question to avoid the use of "concern." In response to your comment here:
Did you criticize the random votes because you felt that if you did not do so, the deadline would be reached more quickly?
My Custom Set: Solescurio
Then let's say it is.
[QUOT=iLord]I think this would be a fruitless query - Tilde could easily assert that they are not illogical, which is what he has effectively done.[/QUOTE]
I have not quite seen where he addressed the issue. Please show me.
I agree with the last sentence, however, the information that he was basing his fallacious theories on was present in the thread at the time, I had simply not directly pointed out that it was.
Correct.
So if you agree that Tilde does this regardless of alignment, why are you waving it off? You may consider it not indicative of his alignment, but why not consider the possibility that it is a scum tell? You are handwaving my argument based solely on meta. Can you explain a possible town motivation for presenting theories that attempt to smear two members of the town despite all information in the thread pointing to the clear fact that he shouldn't?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
His #258 effectively asserts that he believes he is being logical and that you are not.
Indeed. Hence, why I am interested in how he will attempt to reconcile his views with what you have pointed out.
I'm not waving it off - I'm giving each of his actions my full consideration. It is only with such consideration that I have found his behavior so far inconclusive with regards to alignment.
I sense your frustration with Tilde's playstyle giving him a free pass, but rest assured that it is not all-encompassing. For example, the fact that Tilde has not defended his position at all is concerning. He has attributed this behavior to his belief that you are being unreasonable - I hope that he will respond in a more favorable manner when prompted by me.
There is little town motivation for such "smearing." However, a stubborn and misled townie's actions could easily be mistaken for "smearing."
My Custom Set: Solescurio
The theory that is most plausible to me, right now, is that Iso used some sort of Humility effect on GD to remove the PR, or that a scumbuddy of Iso's did it and Iso's taking the credit to garner town points.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
What bearing do you feel this has on Iso/ganderin's alignments?
My Custom Set: Solescurio
It pushes GD into "strong town read". Iso gets "middling scum" because while a Humility role is usually a scummy role (it's a perma-blocker), I can see Seppel putting on a town as a countermeasure to the PR, or just "4 teh lulz".
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
lol
Misrepresentation all day. Look at the EXACT question I wanted an answer to. Just because I haven't played recently doesn't mean I didn't word the question REALLY carefully to be as specific to what I wanted as possible.
You provided more info than should be out in the open. Yeah, it bothers me. Why do 11 people need to know you DID something?
See above.
Umm...you could claim responsibility later and then we'd have a whole case to evaluate?
Yeah.
Did I ever post any content worth waiting for? lol
Hopefully I changed your mind a little bit.
Why is ganderin not visibly upset at being deprived of his abilities?
Why is ganderin given a "strong town read" for simply having his PR taken away?
Err... What?
You think it looks like he was scum trying to earn brownie points, but you don't think he's scum?
Looking back:
It sounds exactly like you want an direct answer from Iso as to what happened.
Would you believe him later?
My Custom Set: Solescurio
Iso should at the very least tell us the flavour of the ability he used to remove the PR. That should dismiss any suspicions about it.
Ganderin said his posting rescrition WAS his ability :
As for the "town read" I have on him? If Iso manages to get lynched and flips scum, then we can re-evaluate, but at the moment, I think odds are low that both Iso and GD are scum and this PR affair was some kind of gambit on their part.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
Eh, I don't think the flavor would help much to alleviate those that still harbor suspicions.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
Sorry, when you said "effectively", I thought you mean in an effective manner.
Which he has once again failed to address.
How about now that he's STILL PUSHING THE ISSUE AND AVOIDING MY QUESTIONS?
And how do you feel now that he has once again failed to do so?
It has been proven that his theories cannot possibly be true and he is still harping on them. How is that anything but smearing? He can't be simply misled if he's been corrected.
How do you still think this is a viable possibility when it has been proven that nobody could have possibly induced dan's PR, sans the mod?
said the kettle
Seems clear as day to me that you wanted the issue addressed and then when we called you out for fishing you backpedaled on the matter. That's hardly a misrepresentation. Why did you feel the need to be so careful, so specific? You are giving off so many language tells, dude. Is there a reason you're being self-incriminating?
Uhh, once again, so that ganderin_dan, who I am confirming as town, did not get mislynched for SUDDENLY, NO POST RESTRICTION.
At that point, it would be WIFOM, unprovable, and we would have a possible mislynch in g_d on our hands. Not on my watch. Anyway, by claiming my removal of g_d's PR, I've successfully outed Tilde as scum.
Explain how these thoughts are cohesive when put together, then.
Why are you so concerned about how WoD views you?
iLord seems to have hit the other points regarding you.
I will only do this if we have a massclaim. Which I fully support come Day 2.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
How would we have created such a gambit, were we both scum? If ganderin_dan flips scum, how does that change your view of my alignment? Why would dan have spent 4-5 hours researching Cyan quotes if that were the case? Why include the bit about only able to vote for people Cyan has voted for? Seems a bit elaborate to me, and once again, grasping at straws in a feeble attempt to paint me as scum. Can we lynch Tilde already?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
This actually makes a lot more sense that I initially gave it credit for.
That being said, I believe you are misinterpreting ganderin's post - he doesn't explicitly state whether PR was his only "ability," and with good reason.
I also agree with you that it is unlikely that Iso and ganderin are on a scumteam together.
A few more questions:
Why would scumIso use this ability on ganderin, which was guaranteed to provide at least some benefit to the town?
Why do you think scumIso would publicly claim using this ability on ganderin? If ganderin had claimed that he loss other abilities as a result of Iso's action, couldn't his action dangerously backfire?
My Custom Set: Solescurio
I will also be claiming last to optimize massclaim efficiency. I have my reasons that I will not be sharing until I claim and I will consider any actions taken to oust further information about my ability as anti-town.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm working on reconstructing his mindset, and he's proving very accommodating in answering my questions. Believe it or not, it is actually more coherent than either of us believed.
Continuing onward even when shown evidence to the contrary is the "stubborn" part of my description.
What he is trying to say here is that he believes that the PR is part of GD's role, and that your ability removes all abilities (not just PR's). He has supported this with ganderin's post here:
He has interpreted this as saying ganderin's sole "ability" is his PR, and that your action has divested him of all abilities.
Not exactly the conclusion I would've made, as he's assuming more than can be safely assumed, but I can see the thought process.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
Which is a fair guess, I can see he's trying as hard as he can to figure out what my ability is (for what town-driven reasons I cannot imagine), but my point being that he's still trying to find some way to paint me as scum, regardless of what my ability is. If you'll notice, he changes his stance on the matter every time evidence points to the contrary of his theories. Why is Tilde putting forth so much effort to paint me as scummy, regardless of how pro-town my actions may be?
Also, your stance on a Day 2 massclaim?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
scumTilde interpretation: He irrationally wants to get you lynched even though he doesn't think you're scum. In doing so, he tries to force everything to fit in a world where you're scum.
townTilde interpretation: He irrationally wants to get you lynched because he actually thinks you're scum. In doing so, he tries to force everything to fit in a world where you're scum.
The issue isn't his intent, it's his rationale. You obviously have received an impression of undeniable malice. It is unfortunate that it is so difficult to convincingly impress your personal perceptions upon another, because neither of us appears to be able to convince the other over the existence of such malice.
I'd rather not talk about that right now. Positions concerning massclaims tend to reveal more about the players' roles than they would like, and I'd prefer to cross that bridge once we get there.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
Can you stop trying to do a dance with me? I feel very much like your trying to lead me. I stated why I did my question. I did the RVS for multiple reason's.
Not just one reason.
I did it for reaction
I did it because of the rules and getting discussion going
I did it because I'm not used to people that vote for no reason and the few times I have run across it people were scum.
I don't know if anyone else would start a discussion. I don't think about those things and I don't see the point of not asking questions and moving past the RVS stage quickly.
mafia win/lose record
town (12) 6/6
mafia (2) 2/0
Cult (1) 1/0
3rd party (0) 0/0
mafia record
Also known at mafiascum as farside22
@pinky: I would like your take on my Tilde case, as well as your stance on Some One and Anaklusmos when you get the chance.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm simply asking you to elaborate on what you mean. Here's what has just progressed:
Questions:
What sort of reactions were you looking for?
How did the deadline rules influence your post?
Are you saying that you considered all of these aspects before making your post?
You understand my intent. Changes in bold below.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I considered posting this in my first big catchup post. I also considered asking to be lynched as a result.
I'm more inclined to say town. I was moderately concerned that he was attempting to keep up his meta by purposely interjecting random ideas into the thread in order to use it as a catch-all, but it appears that his thought process is actually legitimate and easily followed. Regardless, it's not a very strong read in either regard.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
You didn't have to bring this up. We were being purposely vague so as to not out you either way. And I don't see how being vanilla necessitates your lynch?
Tilde is also looking more sane every second.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
Anyone can fabricate a reason for a poor idea, legitimate or not.
Second funniest thing I've read all game.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Doing so is more difficult that perhaps you would believe. But yes, it is not implausible that scumTilde could conceive of such an explanation - I simply believe it is marginally more likely for townTilde to do so.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It could've backfired, but GD was probably a much safer target than anyone else Iso could have used it on. Even if GD had something along the lines of DayCop and DayVig powers in addition to the PR, getting rid of all of them for the sake of letting GD be able to play normally might be forgiven by everyone.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
GD had the PR and no other abilities from the start.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
GD: I don't see why you felt the need to claim vanilla :/
I also don't see how you being lynched would be particularly productive.
This is some epic fence-sitting. If you don't think he's scum, he's not trying to earn brownie points, is he?
SO's following post #272 is bad as well - using "lol" twice in a nervous attempt to brush off arguments and appealing directly to WoD. I still don't see any useful content - not even what was promised in #235.
Why wouldn't Iso use his ability unannounced if his ability seems so scummy when claimed?
My Custom Set: Solescurio
I don't know how you reason that.
I said "DID WE get an answer..."
- The question was not solely directed at him
- The question was in the past tense.
- The answer to the question would be found from information already present in the thread.
Yeah. Why not? If GD has no idea what happened and no one counter-claims him...what other possibility is there?
NO, and that's the point - that I don't think that's the case.
Or a tip of the hat to the fact that I don't take orders. A demand for content isn't exactly an argument.