2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Iso: If it's entirely based on the rest of their actions...you're arguing that if their actions are town, their response to a loaded question is null, but if their actions are scum, their response is scum. So how do loaded questions play any part in this?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I said "pretty much everything", but yes, it is a trend I have noticed with the way you play Mafia.
You never research the stuff you say, and you make these big, definitive statements, and expect everyone to just accept them with... what evidence?
Certainly nothing you're ever prepared to dig up to back up your claims. You just expect everyone to take what you say at face value, even when you're blatantly wrong. A lot of people just let you slide since you're a pretty new player, but it's a bad habit, and it's annoying as hell, and it's not something that you should be able to get away with.
As you can no doubt tell, it drives me right up the wall.
If you want to make statements like that, and have people actually take you seriously, you have to back them up. Yes, I know that means you have to actually research the things you say, before you say them, but I for one will not let sloppy play like that slide.
TL;DR: Start backing up your sweeping generalizations with fact, or expect further scorn.
I'm saying that the scum usually end the RVS in such a manner as pinky has. Or at least in the games i have played on this site. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=264920
Was the first game i went to. Scum Aqua attempts to shoot down the RVS by voting someone for a reason.
Debatable which actually ended it, but the back and forth between scum and town here ended the RVS for sure. I consider Eco's continuation of it to be the catalyst that ends it, not the joke. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=291650
The point being, scum have more reasons to cast unreasonable doubt early and i think pinky's post shows he complete willingness to do that.
Pinky, i'm not going to go over this again. Your actions are not insigificant. The actions you initially questioned are. Big difference.
This reads a lot like you made a conclusion, then, when prompted, found evidence to support it. I mean the RVS of those games was almost a year ago. That hardly would've been the first thing that went through your mind when you saw Pinky's post.
@Arcadic: Is there a reason you ignored this part of my post?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Grasping at straws to paint me as scummy. If I had given him the PR, why would I have said anything about it? Moreover, why would I remove it? Why not just move on day by day, handing out the PR to everybody, making it impossible for me to lose if I were scum? Eco hasn't posted in a day or two, I wanted to hear what he had to say.
You would remove it to earn townie points with everyone. That is not hard to see.
Quote from Iso »
I thought I've answered this already? It contributes to a case against a scummy player. Are we done beating a dead horse yet?
No. You keep answering in generalizations, like the above. The reason people keep asking is because you don't actually answer the question, you more sidestep it. That's why he keeps asking. Because you haven't really answered the question yet.
You would remove it to earn townie points with everyone. That is not hard to see.
So you're turning my pro-town act of removing g_d's post restriction into WIFOM? o: What would I possibly have to gain from allowing somebody the ability to vote for me if I were scum? What are your motives for skewing MY motives for removing g_d's post restriction?
Quote from Anaklusmos »
No. You keep answering in generalizations, like the above. The reason people keep asking is because you don't actually answer the question, you more sidestep it. That's why he keeps asking. Because you haven't really answered the question yet.
Then there is no answer I can give that you feel would be acceptable. I'm not sidestepping the question, I'm answering it exactly as I feel I should be. If you don't like the fact that I can't provide you with a specific example because we are only 14 pages into the game, why do you keep asking when I'm giving the best available answer? Why are you beating a dead horse?
@Everyone: So are we going to actually play the game? Or are we going to play "criticize Iso's playstyle like half of the Mafia playerbase on MTGS does"? Because I've played the latter plenty, and it's always bitten the other people who play it in the ass. My results speak for themselves. So once again, I play the game the way I play it; whether or not you agree that my methods are conventional does not mean they're not effective. If you don't believe they're effective, I have cited many examples, and I can provide more. But for you to just discount me because you don't agree with the way I play is absolutely ignorant and speaks loads of you as a player. I don't expect you to accept what I say at face value; it's Mafia. But when I've proven myself time and time again, it's just baseless for you to discount me so easily. So can we play the game instead of throwing about a bunch of ad hominem? Thanks.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Everyone: So are we going to actually play the game? Or are we going to play "criticize Iso's playstyle like half of the Mafia playerbase on MTGS does"? Because I've played the latter plenty, and it's always bitten the other people who play it in the ass. My results speak for themselves. So once again, I play the game the way I play it; whether or not you agree that my methods are conventional does not mean they're not effective. If you don't believe they're effective, I have cited many examples, and I can provide more. But for you to just discount me because you don't agree with the way I play is absolutely ignorant and speaks loads of you as a player. I don't expect you to accept what I say at face value; it's Mafia. But when I've proven myself time and time again, it's just baseless for you to discount me so easily. So can we play the game instead of throwing about a bunch of ad hominem? Thanks.
Finding scum is only one part of playing Mafia. You must also be able to interact and cooperate with other players if you want to convince them of your reads and opinions. The reason you've found several other players to be unreceptive is because your attitude makes it difficult for anyone to take you seriously. We understand that you are very confident of your capabilities - if you'll tone down your attitude a little, you'll be able to prove it to us, and you'll probably make the game more fun for everyone, yourself included.
Exactly what attitude am I giving off? I come into a game and I play the way I've learned to play. WoD is saying that everything I do is completely baseless. If that were true, how would I have such consistency? I'm not trying to make myself appear better than anyone else in this game, but when you tell me that the way I play the game doesn't work and all evidence points to the contrary of your statement, what am I supposed to do? I have provided examples of why my playstyle is NOT baseless, and still, I am discounted and hand waved. I'm accused of arrogance when I simply explain myself, and my confidence in my reads means I have no idea as to what the hell I'm talking about? Excuse me? I cannot thoroughly express how much it irks me when people are unwilling to accept my explanations just because they think I'm overconfident.
Seriously.
Lynch Tilde today and when he flips scum, NEVER question the validity of how I obtain my reads or accuse me of OMGUS again when I CONSTANTLY have to explain why it's not. If he flips town, I'll shut the hell up, stop *****ing, and tone it way down. Mmkay?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Exactly what attitude am I giving off? I come into a game and I play the way I've learned to play. WoD is saying that everything I do is completely baseless. If that were true, how would I have such consistency? I'm not trying to make myself appear better than anyone else in this game, but when you tell me that the way I play the game doesn't work and all evidence points to the contrary of your statement, what am I supposed to do? I have provided examples of why my playstyle is NOT baseless, and still, I am discounted and hand waved. I'm accused of arrogance when I simply explain myself, and my confidence in my reads means I have no idea as to what the hell I'm talking about? Excuse me? I cannot thoroughly express how much it irks me when people are unwilling to accept my explanations just because they think I'm overconfident.
Seriously.
Lynch Tilde today and when he flips scum, NEVER question the validity of how I obtain my reads or accuse me of OMGUS again when I CONSTANTLY have to explain why it's not. If he flips town, I'll shut the hell up, stop *****ing, and tone it way down. Mmkay?
People are unwilling to accept pretty much any explanations when its force-fed down their throat. It may irk you, but that's the way people are - as long as you continue to say things like "Rule #1 in a game with Iso is that you don't mess with Iso. People get wrecked that way" and fill the thread with examples when you believe you caught scum, people are going to react negatively.
No one expects you to completely change the way you play - just post with the understanding that not everyone agrees with what you say or is willing to take your reads at face value without substantial behavioral evidence from the thread. Arguments like "Tilde is scum because _________" are much more easily swallowed than "Tilde is scum because I said so. Look at how often I'm right!"
I can understand how that could be seen in a completely different light from the way I meant it. It was more of an "it is within scum's best interests not to attack me as I am fairly easily able to distinguish town attacks from scum attacks when they are directed towards me" statement. And then I did a bit of posturing for kicks and people completely dismissed my argument.
I have offered reasoning for why Tilde is scum. People labeled it "OMGUS" and "baseless". If they are unwilling to accept facts, then I see no other alternative than to beat the idea into them through repetition and other such methods. I never said, "Tilde is scum because I said so", or anything remotely resembling that. I said, "Tilde is scum because __________, and this is not an invalid read or playstyle because look at the successes I've had with it."
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I have offered reasoning for why Tilde is scum. People labeled it "OMGUS" and "baseless". If they are unwilling to accept facts, then I see no other alternative than to beat the idea into them through repetition and other such methods. I never said, "Tilde is scum because I said so", or anything remotely resembling that. I said, "Tilde is scum because __________, and this is not an invalid read or playstyle because look at the successes I've had with it."
In that case, could you provide a concise case? Specifically concerning Tilde, all I can recall is that you put him on your initial scumlist and have been criticizing each of his subsequent responses. If you could specify what aspects of his posts you find scummy in a consolidated case, that'll go a long way towards convincing me and other players.
It's hard to convince even a majority to see things your way. Even after one presents logical and coherent arguments, other players frequently remain unconvinced. At this juncture, it wouldn't help to "beat the idea into them through repetition." All one can do is to continue gathering evidence and pressuring the target. Sometimes, the initial hunch weakens considerably. Other times, however, enough support is gathered for an eventual lynch.
So Iso is claiming that he's Cyan, who wins with the town, but doesn't have the town wincon in his role PM (which is a null tell and probably Seppel just messing with us).
But I found this little exchange in the mafia theory/discussion thread.
Now... How many people would agree that Seppel would pull something like that in this game, just to screw with everyone's minds?
Not so random FOS: Iso
Attempts to paint me as scummy through something said in the Mafia Theory thread that was said before CIM was even announced to be running. Also, this implies that Tilde is not Cyan.
I HIGHLY recommend against that course of action today, because the first thing I thought of in terms of roles that would compensate for Gan's PR is Jester. No offense Gan, but I'm not following through with any plan involving your demise without some independent confirmation that it won't, you know, make everyone else lose?
Suggests that dan is a Jester. Tilde's by no means a new player and should know by this point that on MTGS, Jesters are frowned upon, and are only allowed if announced in the setup. But I can see attempting to paint dan as a Jester as something to the effect of hinting at a (possible) Vig target. Maybe that's reaching a little, but that was my first reaction to possible motives Tilde might have for implicating dan as a Jester.
Also, the whole figuring out dan's post restriction thing reads to me as scum attempting to seem useful.
His role SCREAMS "It's A Trap!" (who had the Ackbar avvy? Was it Jobie?) whether it really is one or not. So in my mind, he's off the chopping block until tomorrow, unless someone pulls a day investigation out of thin air.
"Here, let me cast more suspicion on ganderin_dan based on gaming the mod since he can't talk to explain himself!"
"Here, let me cast suspicion on Iso because he thinks I'm scum!" Is it not completely legitimate to change your reads based on new information? Why would Tilde have any reason to put suspicion on me when he expressed none prior to the point where I created my possible scum list?
without any sort of evidence or behavioral analysis to support your claim, while also leaving yourself wiggle room in the event you were actually, you know, wrong.
"Your first T/S list has no behavioral analysis attached to it, despite that being completely reasonable at this stage in the game! And how dare you allow yourself the ability to be wrong, despite that being completely reasonable at this stage in the game!" Because so frequently all of the scum are caught within the first 150 posts of the game, right, guys?
Quote from ~Tilde~ »
You basically just said "These people are looking at me funny! They must be scum, For I am Cyan and am NEVER EVER EVER wrong about these sorts of things!"
Does not mesh with the previous statement about allowing myself to be wrong. Blatant smear and baseless discrediting of my reads.
Incidentally, none of this had occurred until AFTER Tilde was on my scum list.
Hey Tilde, remember how you were pushing suspicion on to g_d and then dropped it like a hot potato as soon as he stopped having a PR?
Uh huh... So, Iso used his CyanMagicPants fairy dust and Lo And Behold! A Miracle Doth Occur! and Ganderin can talk again?
SUDDEN DISBELIEF.
Despite, you know, g_d researching Cyan quotes for hours so that he could communicate with us.
If I were scum, I wouldn't have any reason to remove g_d's PR. It would be within my best interest as scum not to even allude to the fact that I could. So once again, Tilde is attempting to fling dirt my way, despite the fact that my removal of g_d's PR is high risk, low reward if I'm scum.
Hmm... Anak's vote on Iso in post #81 hasn't shown up on any of the official vote counts.
Anak? Have you been bound and gagged?
And back on this again. Despite all of the information in the thread indicating otherwise, Tilde STILL tries to harp on this. What possible motive could he have for that as town?
Followed by an immediate "Let's change the subject"? Maybe I should point out what GD said his PR was (my bolding for emphasis) :
Vote: Iso.
Ahh, there's the vote. Tilde, of course, had to put distance between my vote and his to attempt to not make it look like he's just trying to get rid of me for being on his ass. Then attempts to smear me further by misrepresenting my intentions for wanting Eco to provide content, and THEN claims to vote for me based on the long-dead PR issue? dan did not and could not indicate that he could only vote for people Cyan had voted for with his PR in effect, so how could I have known that was the case? TO TOP IT OFF, I WASN'T EVEN CONFIRMED BY THE TIME G_D CONFIRMED. And the person I replaced did not confirm, meaning they could not have induced the PR on dan. Speaking from a chronological standpoint, then, it makes absolutely no sense for Tilde to STILL be pushing this on to me unless he is scum who wants me to get lynched. In regards to the voting restriction, even if I had known that he could not vote for me at the time, once again, what would I have to gain from removing his PR, in that case? Tilde is intentionally pushing a bad wagon and he knows it.
Am I really grasping at straws? Your first post in this game:
Is that not blatant ?
Says the person who isn't Cyan, and probably by direct extension, scum. (I have a theory!)
Quote from ~Tilde~ »
Later, right after Ganderin used his multi exclamation point...
implies that you knew Ganderin wasn't supposed to be able to do that.
To my joke of the Cyan PR being impossible. Blatant misrepresentation of two words used. As a joke. Because it's CYAN'S IMPOSSIBLE MAFIA. Hence the /Cyan after that. There is no possible way, as proven by confirmation order, that I could have given dan the post restriction.
Quote from ~Tilde~ »
Then there's this:
It's WIFOM if you're responsible for GD's PR in the first place.
See above.
Quote from ~Tilde~ »
Then you've got the loaded questions...
Which Tilde knows full well I did not ask, but rather, addressed. Like I said, looking for any possible excuse he can to paint me as scummy.
Quote from ~Tilde~ »
Finally, you shout OMGUS at me for seriously questioning you.
Worth noting that he didn't start questioning me until after he voted for me. A vote that was based on a fallacy. After making many, many fallacious accusations.
Quote from ~Tilde~ »
Put it all together, and Iso Tilde's looking awful scummy right now.
Fixed.
Now, this is everything that I saw when Tilde was posting.
Now that I've called it to your attention, is it more convincing?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
My role PM is silly. It says I win with the town even though it tells me I don't know the town win condition but the town win condition is in the first post.
I have a thought, and it could explain why Iso's so fixated on lynching me, but I need to ask a question of everyone though : "Is your rolename a member of the Forums?"
Rereading the past ~100 posts was pretty awful. Arcadic & iLord are the only ones making sense. ~ being ~ and pushing some totally nonsensical case on my PR, Pinky finally retracting her completely random argument (seriously, an out of thread discussion, joke RVS votes and Arcadic ), and a bunch of non-entities, myself included. This list includes, but is not limited to, Some One, Eco and Gigas1 @SepsepsepsepsepSepSEP: Prod on Gigas1?
Tilde, do you have a case on Iso beyond my being ungagged?
The bit about loaded questions is also patently ridiculous. The POINT of a loaded question is to receive an answer you desire, and that it isn't able to be seen coming, or it wouldn't accomplish anything.
iLord, you've remained rational despite Iso coming at you, guns blazing, and continued to explain why his case on Tilde is based on fluff. WoD barning along while commenting on little else is something I feel we need to take note of.
I've seen both versions of Arcadic, and I think this is the town one. Also think Iso and iLord is town v. town.
Pinky, when you get back, do you plan to provide a more detailed case on Arcadic? I don't think he was overreacting to what you mention in #143. Overreacting to a post not even directed at him seems neigh impossible (46), and a purely opinion-based (although one that I'm willing to say most people agree with, and likely has substantial empirical data to support) reaction to your silly posts about RVS votes.
The scum motive, however, is exactly as he stated. Trying to jump off a wagon, which is what scum have to do to succeed. Thus my thinking your case has a poor foundation.
Tilde, do you have a case on Iso beyond my being ungagged?
Actually I have a theory that I'm testing that would throw that case out and put him and you firmly as town in my book. I'd ask Iso directly, but if I'm correct I'd be revealing some information about HIS role.
I have a thought, and it could explain why Iso's so fixated on lynching me, but I need to ask a question of everyone though : "Is your rolename a member of the Forums?"
I'm fixated on lynching you for the aforementioned reasons. As well as the possibility that you're not Cyan.
I could see iLord as possibly being town based on his composure in the face of my questioning.
Actually I have a theory that I'm testing that would throw that case out and put him and you firmly as town in my book. I'd ask Iso directly, but if I'm correct I'd be revealing some information about HIS role.
Iso? Do you want me to say what I'm thinking?
Say away, but if I don't like what I'm hearing for any reason, I won't give any indication of whether you're correct or not.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
EBWODP: Tilde, I don't see how you could still push the PR case (which seems to be your only "evidence") after being confronted with the fact that it is impossible for me to have given g_d the PR.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Sorry I didn't post this yesterday, RL had a surprise for me.
Unvote
***
Quote from iLord »
You're going to have to explain yourself a little bit more here. Logic isn't solely within the capacity of townies.
I guess it boils down to a strong gut read: you're presenting your thoughts in clear and direct way, and I feel like you have a pro-town agenda. Difficult to articulate, but at this stage of the game, I feel comfortable trusting you.
***
Re: Arcadic and Pinky.
I broadly agree with iLord's interpretation of events:
- pinky sees people voting randomly and questions them because they're not contributing to the game.
- Some people point out flaws in her reasoning, others support it. Arcadic in particular found her actions malicious.
- pinky accuses Arcadic both to defend her own position and to challenge his weak attack.
I don't see anything in this exchange that's particularly indicative of alignment.
Both players seems to be using excessive defensiveness as a key part of their attacks. It is, however, only natural for a player of any alignment to get defensive when being attacked, especially when they consider the attack to be poorly grounded (as is the case here).
A quick look through Pinky's games shows that her questioning of random votes is not something she only does as one alignment, and I feel that Aracdic is placing too much emphasis on something that isn't inherently malicious.
To wit, I don't agree that scum are more likely to end the random stage. I would argue from my intuition that scum are quite happy for the town to blunder and not push the game forward.
I'm saying that the scum usually end the RVS in such a manner as pinky has. Or at least in the games i have played on this site. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=264920
Was the first game i went to. Scum Aqua attempts to shoot down the RVS by voting someone for a reason.
Debatable which actually ended it, but the back and forth between scum and town here ended the RVS for sure. I consider Eco's continuation of it to be the catalyst that ends it, not the joke. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=291650
In the Conflux mafia example, it seems obvious to me that the random stage was ended solely Sepiriel (A townie) taking the wrong end of the stick and voting me. In fact, I definitely tried to continue the RVS by making jokes.
I am also curious exactly which vote in Softball mafia you're referring to. Aqua was being nervous, but at a quick scan, I don't see him trying to kill the RVS. In fact, it looks like Sepiriel is the culprit (again) for proposing a softclaim in #50.
So, unless you can produce more examples in a statistically significant size, I must disagree with your fundamental point that scum tend to end the random stage.
***
WoD: In post #103, I see you citing Pinky's gut as a reason to vote Arcadic. At that point, what had Pinky done to appear town enough for you to trust her gut? Did you not feel that your own reasoning as strong enough by itself?
The scum motive, however, is exactly as he stated. Trying to jump off a wagon, which is what scum have to do to succeed. Thus my thinking your case has a poor foundation.
Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I feel like there was little possibility of pinky's questioning gaining any momentum.
---------------------------
I'm looking over Iso's case right now and I'll give my opinions in a sec.
My role PM is silly. It says I win with the town even though it tells me I don't know the town win condition but the town win condition is in the first post.
you have to kill ~Tilde~. The ROLENAME ~Tilde~, not me. In a larger game, you'd be the guy tracking down the SK.
So Iso is claiming that he's Cyan, who wins with the town, but doesn't have the town wincon in his role PM (which is a null tell and probably Seppel just messing with us).
But I found this little exchange in the mafia theory/discussion thread.
Now... How many people would agree that Seppel would pull something like that in this game, just to screw with everyone's minds?
Not so random FOS: Iso
Attempts to paint me as scummy through something said in the Mafia Theory thread that was said before CIM was even announced to be running. Also, this implies that Tilde is not Cyan.
Looking back, it actually does read like it implies Tilde's not Cyan.
Tilde's conspiracy theory with the Mafia Theory thread is sort of his way of saying hello. I don't think he really believes anyone's going to take him seriously.
Quote from Iso »
Suggests that dan is a Jester. Tilde's by no means a new player and should know by this point that on MTGS, Jesters are frowned upon, and are only allowed if announced in the setup. But I can see attempting to paint dan as a Jester as something to the effect of hinting at a (possible) Vig target. Maybe that's reaching a little, but that was my first reaction to possible motives Tilde might have for implicating dan as a Jester.
Also, the whole figuring out dan's post restriction thing reads to me as scum attempting to seem useful.
I think the vig-painting is a stretch. Really, I think Tilde's just spouting every thought that goes through his mind.
Quote from Iso »
"Here, let me cast more suspicion on ganderin_dan based on gaming the mod since he can't talk to explain himself!"
This would be more accurate if he wasn't bizarrely advocating not lynching ganderin. As it is, I interpreted this as Tilde flipping out over nothing.
Incidentally, the Ackbar avatar he's referencing was mine.
Quote from Iso »
Quote from Tilde »
Hedging our bets are we?
"Here, let me cast suspicion on Iso because he thinks I'm scum!" Is it not completely legitimate to change your reads based on new information? Why would Tilde have any reason to put suspicion on me when he expressed none prior to the point where I created my possible scum list?
Quote from Iso »
Quote from Tilde »
Says the person who declared:
without any sort of evidence or behavioral analysis to support your claim, while also leaving yourself wiggle room in the event you were actually, you know, wrong.
"Your first T/S list has no behavioral analysis attached to it, despite that being completely reasonable at this stage in the game! And how dare you allow yourself the ability to be wrong, despite that being completely reasonable at this stage in the game!" Because so frequently all of the scum are caught within the first 150 posts of the game, right, guys?
This was indeed a rather defensive posture that he took. I don't think he's putting suspicion on you as much as he's trying to discredit your suspicion towards him as merely one of three. And yes, I see the inherent contradiction between him criticizing both the baselessness of your scumlist and your disclaimer.
================
Tilde's comments concerning you and ganderin's PR are not very logical. What you detect as malicious intent, I read as Tilde following his personal interpretation in which you being scum apparently made perfect sense.
================
Quote from Iso »
"Iso's pro-town action is totally WIFOM, guys!"
What Tilde's trying to say is "Iso's pro-town action does not definitively determine alignment because scum could do it to look town."
Quote from Iso »
Does not mesh with the previous statement about allowing myself to be wrong. Blatant smear and baseless discrediting of my reads.
Incidentally, none of this had occurred until AFTER Tilde was on my scum list.
Well, given that he's mostly attacking you because of your scumlist, I can forgive him for that.
Quote from Iso »
SUDDEN DISBELIEF.
Despite, you know, g_d researching Cyan quotes for hours so that he could communicate with us.
If I were scum, I wouldn't have any reason to remove g_d's PR. It would be within my best interest as scum not to even allude to the fact that I could. So once again, Tilde is attempting to fling dirt my way, despite the fact that my removal of g_d's PR is high risk, low reward if I'm scum.
I attribute his disbelief as him clinging to his prior schema even after it was becoming readily apparent that it was nonsensical.
I don't agree that removing g_D's PR is a high-risk tactic. I see it sort of as low-risk, low-reward, since it likely cannot backfire too hard on you, but won't contribute significantly to your town cred either.
Quote from Iso »
And back on this again. Despite all of the information in the thread indicating otherwise, Tilde STILL tries to harp on this. What possible motive could he have for that as town?
As is becoming the pattern, it's not really a question of motive, but of logic. Tilde's repeatedly trying to make square boxes fit into round holes, and that's not something that really benefits either scum or town.
Quote from Iso »
Ahh, there's the vote. Tilde, of course, had to put distance between my vote and his to attempt to not make it look like he's just trying to get rid of me for being on his ass. Then attempts to smear me further by misrepresenting my intentions for wanting Eco to provide content, and THEN claims to vote for me based on the long-dead PR issue? dan did not and could not indicate that he could only vote for people Cyan had voted for with his PR in effect, so how could I have known that was the case? TO TOP IT OFF, I WASN'T EVEN CONFIRMED BY THE TIME G_D CONFIRMED. And the person I replaced did not confirm, meaning they could not have induced the PR on dan. Speaking from a chronological standpoint, then, it makes absolutely no sense for Tilde to STILL be pushing this on to me unless he is scum who wants me to get lynched. In regards to the voting restriction, even if I had known that he could not vote for me at the time, once again, what would I have to gain from removing his PR, in that case? Tilde is intentionally pushing a bad wagon and he doesn't quite know it.
The changes above would be the townTilde interpretation. At this point, I can't distinguish anything that would indicate either mindset is more likely than the other.
Quote from Iso »
Which Tilde knows full well I did not ask, but rather, addressed. Like I said, looking for any possible excuse he can to paint me as scummy.
I don't believe Tilde was following the loaded question discussion very closely. He probably saw that you were advocating their use and assumed that you were defending yourself.
Quote from Iso »
Worth noting that he didn't start questioning me until after he voted for me. A vote that was based on a fallacy. After making many, many fallacious accusations.
This pretty much sums up Tilde's behavior nicely.
Quote from Iso »
Now that I've called it to your attention, is it more convincing?
With the majority of your case, I am in complete agreement: Tilde's theory's are not very convincing, he attacks you in retaliation, and he's pretty much slapping together whatever arguments he can.
I do disagree with your interpretation of his mindset. Fundamentally, you believe he doesn't genuinely believe in everything he posts. Given my admittedly limited experience with Tilde, I think he actually does. If you have never played with Tilde before, I urge you to skim over some of his posts in other games. You'll find that his thought process is very consistent with the one he has displayed here.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@iLord: I don't have a completed game with Tilde. I have read a few of his games. That being said, I don't necessarily agree with your interpretation of Tilde's mindset. I agree that he tends to do strange things in some games, but I'm pretty sure this is scumTilde. In regards to your assessment of whether or not it was high risk, low reward, well, nobody knows what my ability is. So that's for me to determine.
Tilde, another question: Does that mean that you're rolename: ~Tilde~?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@iLord: I don't have a completed game with Tilde. I have read a few of his games. That being said, I don't necessarily agree with your interpretation of Tilde's mindset. I agree that he tends to do strange things in some games, but I'm pretty sure this is scumTilde. In regards to your assessment of whether or not it was high risk, low reward, well, nobody knows what my ability is. So that's for me to determine.
Indeed, you're the only one with perfect information on this issue. But from our perspective, the conclusion is not unreasonable.
If you could allow other people to make detailed defenses to more in-depth questions, it would be appreciated.
I like how you've presented this case much better than what you were doing previously, Iso. Not sure why I didn't mention that earlier. Continue doing this.
If you could allow other people to make detailed defenses to more in-depth questions, it would be appreciated.
I don't believe Iso's case was directed towards Tilde. If you'll notice - Tilde posted several times after Iso posted his case and completely ignored it.
So you think the possibility of a ~Tilde~ role is an SK? Is there any particular reason for that?
I said in a LARGER game. I doubt there's enough room for a 3rd party role in this game. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the scum did have "~Tilde~" as a rolename though. Me being depicted as one of the anti-Cyan forces in this game makes a strange sort of sense flavorwise.
-I found myself siding with Arc @ his 44 vs. PB, but now, I don't know.
-Is the rule sited in Iso's 67 legit? People have to know there is a Jester in the game in order for the role of jester to exist? I would like an answer to this question if anyone knows...if he made it up on the fly, for example, I would find that to be relevant.
-I liked Anakulsmos 88, nice solid poasting.
-I can't recall WoD ever putting more words in a post in my entire life (in reference to 204). Thanks for that TL;DR...hilarious. lol
So, in reference to Iso & ~ & GD:
Did we not get a direct answer from Iso as to WTF happened for him to get GD to talk?
I have MUCH more to say on this topic, but would love that question to be answered first.
-Is the rule sited in Iso's 67 legit? People have to know there is a Jester in the game in order for the role of jester to exist? I would like an answer to this question if anyone knows...if he made it up on the fly, for example, I would find that to be relevant.
I don't know if there's an explicit rule, but my first response to someone declaring the possibility of a jester is something similar, along the lines of "that wouldn't be allowed on MTGS." The last jester in a legit game that I remember was in Greenwood Affair many years ago, which resulted in much discontent.
I don't believe Iso's case was directed towards Tilde. If you'll notice - Tilde posted several times after Iso posted his case and completely ignored it.
He is certainly welcome to address the points. However, you are correct, it was more of an "up for interpretation by everyone else" post...as cases tend to be.
I HIGHLY recommend against that course of action today, because the first thing I thought of in terms of roles that would compensate for Gan's PR is Jester.
in one of your earliest posts?
These statements do not mesh. And don't try to pretend you didn't realize that until now. You've played enough games here to know that.
-Is the rule sited in Iso's 67 legit? People have to know there is a Jester in the game in order for the role of jester to exist? I would like an answer to this question if anyone knows...if he made it up on the fly, for example, I would find that to be relevant.
Ask Azrael, or another member of the Mafia Council. It's legit.
Quote from Some One »
So, in reference to Iso & ~ & GD:
Did we not get a direct answer from Iso as to WTF happened for him to get GD to talk?
I have MUCH more to say on this topic, but would love that question to be answered first.
I'm not going to say anything in regards to how I removed g_d's PR.
How about you provide what you have to say on the topic instead of waiting for me to reveal anything pertaining to my ability to you?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I don't believe Iso's case was directed towards Tilde. If you'll notice - Tilde posted several times after Iso posted his case and completely ignored it.
You don't think someone that has a post of that length should warrant it with a direct response?
I said in a LARGER game. I doubt there's enough room for a 3rd party role in this game. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the scum did have "~Tilde~" as a rolename though. Me being depicted as one of the anti-Cyan forces in this game makes a strange sort of sense flavorwise.
You should cease modgaming and flavorgaming immediately.
Never did I say I wanted Iso to tell us what happened. Yet, I don't understand why he claimed responsibility to begin with. I don't think he's scum, though.
Never did I say I wanted Iso to tell us what happened. Yet, I don't understand why he claimed responsibility to begin with. I don't think he's scum, though.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Never did I say I wanted Iso to tell us what happened.Yet, I don't understand why he claimed responsibility to begin with.I don't think he's scum, though.
Seriously. Is anyone else seeing this? Fishing expedition, fence-sit so hard we can see the post coming out of his mouth, and then says "OH I GOT CALLED ON FISHING WELL I DIDN'T REALLY WANT AN ANSWER LOL"
He says it "bothers" him, but that he doesn't think I'm scum.
Well, why would it bother him if he doesn't think I'm scum?
And to address why I claimed responsibility to begin with: dan is 100% town in my mind. If he posted with this PR for his first few posts and SUDDENLY, he could talk, wouldn't you wonder what the hell happened? Would you not be suspicious of him? I claimed the responsibility of removing his PR because I didn't want dan to get mislynched on the chance that everyone was like, "HAY WTF HAPEND???"
@ganderin_dan: I know I keep asking, but on second thought, it's probably better if you don't out the flavor of the PM you got when I removed your PR. Keep it under wraps for now.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I have a thought, and it could explain why Iso's so fixated on lynching me, but I need to ask a question of everyone though : "Is your rolename a member of the Forums?"
EBWODP: Tilde, I don't see how you could still push the PR case (which seems to be your only "evidence") after being confronted with the fact that it is impossible for me to have given g_d the PR.
Never did I say I wanted Iso to tell us what happened. Yet, I don't understand why he claimed responsibility to begin with. I don't think he's scum, though.
So then, what do you believe about that?
You don't think Iso's scum.
The way he went about it bothers you.
Yet you didn't say you wanted Iso to tell us what happened.
Now that you bring it up Iso, it is really weird that SO is worried but thinks you're town. If he trusts that you're town, he shouldn't be trying to pull info out of you.
His content was nothing worth waiting for, and I'd like to pressure this guy.
@Iso:
So if the player's already scummy, it makes them scummy. Otherwise, it means nothing.
Okay...that makes no sense whatsoever.
Kay.
Quote from Cyouni »
Why is it "impossible"?
Because ganderin_dan started the game with his PR. I did not even have access to the thread at the time he confirmed. Chronologically speaking, it is impossible. I do believe I stated that earlier.
Quote from Cyouni »
@Some One:
So then, what do you believe about that?
You don't think Iso's scum.
The way he went about it bothers you.
Yet you didn't say you wanted Iso to tell us what happened.
And he did essentially ask me what happened. So he backpedaled after fishing.
Now that you bring it up Iso, it is really weird that SO is worried but thinks you're town. If he trusts that you're town, he shouldn't be trying to pull info out of you.
His content was nothing worth waiting for, and I'd like to pressure this guy.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Never did I say I wanted Iso to tell us what happened. Yet, I don't understand why he claimed responsibility to begin with. I don't think he's scum, though.
You can't call asking questions related to an action that was public as fishing. Iso claimed it with no pressure or need to claim that he was targeting g_d with it. Its also obvious it did not need to be public, but Iso felt it was nessisarry to post it publicly.
Using some law, once the issue is raised, there is nothing left to stop the line of questions it produces. So, not answering the questions related to it is scummy in my book. You introduced the concept so accept the pressure you created.
Unvote
I've had a weekend to reflect and re-read the pinkys interaction. I still find her push on Ilord and me for a RVS action scummy but not enough to want to lynch her right now.
Vote WOD
His leap onto pinky's case and his vote reeks. He's voting me not based on meta, but can't really explain why his vote is on me? If i was looking for an easy lynch outta pinky with my vote, then why does he think pinky was an easy lynch?
Also, that mis-rep isn't a mis-rep. Its decerning motive. Which apparently isn't helpful and i should stop being a bad boy.
@Ilord : No, i simply cut it out on accident or missed it. I did have to find the games, but i knew that in the past i had seen scum attempt or actually end the RVS by pushing or voting someone for very weak reasoning. Yes, Sep seems to have ended the RVS in Conflux, but its not until Eco pushes the issue that other players accept its death in that game. (directed @ Eco as well here)
You can't call asking questions related to an action that was public as fishing. Iso claimed it with no pressure or need to claim that he was targeting g_d with it. Its also obvious it did not need to be public, but Iso felt it was nessisarry to post it publicly.
Using some law, once the issue is raised, there is nothing left to stop the line of questions it produces. So, not answering the questions related to it is scummy in my book. You introduced the concept so accept the pressure you created.
Is this directed towards me? Because if so, I strongly disagree. It's fishing to ask for more information than what is available on a Need-To-Know basis. Presently, none of you need to know more about my ability than I've revealed, and I intend to keep it that way for now. I explained why I outed the fact that I removed gan_dan's PR. Asking for more information than that is fishing.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Hi all. I'm back. I need to get my butt ready for work but I will go through this game and see what I missed later today.
I noted a few things I saw briefly.
1) I did ask my question about RVS to get discussion going. I read the rules on how deadline is determined and I had figured in my mind that scum would coast by and deadline could be reached quickly if a discussion did not occur.
2) I saw the ice cream analogy:
This is not close to what happened. If someone in RL or online told me they hated people that liked chocolate ice cream. I would say something to the effect well I guess you are narrow minded twit that can't think outside your own little box.
But I can be ***** at times.
This is mafia. People are prone to accuse people and people are going to react or not react. It all depends on if there is guilt response or if they are more careful types. The bit of time I have played with Arcadic he has never struck me as an emotional player that lashes out and part of how I felt about this view of him is part of why I attacked him in return.
More later.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am female, hear me roar!
mafia win/lose record
town (12) 6/6
mafia (2) 2/0
Cult (1) 1/0
3rd party (0) 0/0
I can't begin to explain how incorrect you are.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You never research the stuff you say, and you make these big, definitive statements, and expect everyone to just accept them with... what evidence?
Certainly nothing you're ever prepared to dig up to back up your claims. You just expect everyone to take what you say at face value, even when you're blatantly wrong. A lot of people just let you slide since you're a pretty new player, but it's a bad habit, and it's annoying as hell, and it's not something that you should be able to get away with.
As you can no doubt tell, it drives me right up the wall.
If you want to make statements like that, and have people actually take you seriously, you have to back them up. Yes, I know that means you have to actually research the things you say, before you say them, but I for one will not let sloppy play like that slide.
TL;DR: Start backing up your sweeping generalizations with fact, or expect further scorn.
@Arcadic: Is there a reason you ignored this part of my post?
My Custom Set: Solescurio
Aside from the disagreement we've been having in regards to the loaded questions issue, what examples of this have you seen me perform?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You would remove it to earn townie points with everyone. That is not hard to see.
No. You keep answering in generalizations, like the above. The reason people keep asking is because you don't actually answer the question, you more sidestep it. That's why he keeps asking. Because you haven't really answered the question yet.
So you're turning my pro-town act of removing g_d's post restriction into WIFOM? o: What would I possibly have to gain from allowing somebody the ability to vote for me if I were scum? What are your motives for skewing MY motives for removing g_d's post restriction?
Then there is no answer I can give that you feel would be acceptable. I'm not sidestepping the question, I'm answering it exactly as I feel I should be. If you don't like the fact that I can't provide you with a specific example because we are only 14 pages into the game, why do you keep asking when I'm giving the best available answer? Why are you beating a dead horse?
@Everyone: So are we going to actually play the game? Or are we going to play "criticize Iso's playstyle like half of the Mafia playerbase on MTGS does"? Because I've played the latter plenty, and it's always bitten the other people who play it in the ass. My results speak for themselves. So once again, I play the game the way I play it; whether or not you agree that my methods are conventional does not mean they're not effective. If you don't believe they're effective, I have cited many examples, and I can provide more. But for you to just discount me because you don't agree with the way I play is absolutely ignorant and speaks loads of you as a player. I don't expect you to accept what I say at face value; it's Mafia. But when I've proven myself time and time again, it's just baseless for you to discount me so easily. So can we play the game instead of throwing about a bunch of ad hominem? Thanks.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Finding scum is only one part of playing Mafia. You must also be able to interact and cooperate with other players if you want to convince them of your reads and opinions. The reason you've found several other players to be unreceptive is because your attitude makes it difficult for anyone to take you seriously. We understand that you are very confident of your capabilities - if you'll tone down your attitude a little, you'll be able to prove it to us, and you'll probably make the game more fun for everyone, yourself included.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
Seriously.
Lynch Tilde today and when he flips scum, NEVER question the validity of how I obtain my reads or accuse me of OMGUS again when I CONSTANTLY have to explain why it's not. If he flips town, I'll shut the hell up, stop *****ing, and tone it way down. Mmkay?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
People are unwilling to accept pretty much any explanations when its force-fed down their throat. It may irk you, but that's the way people are - as long as you continue to say things like "Rule #1 in a game with Iso is that you don't mess with Iso. People get wrecked that way" and fill the thread with examples when you believe you caught scum, people are going to react negatively.
No one expects you to completely change the way you play - just post with the understanding that not everyone agrees with what you say or is willing to take your reads at face value without substantial behavioral evidence from the thread. Arguments like "Tilde is scum because _________" are much more easily swallowed than "Tilde is scum because I said so. Look at how often I'm right!"
My Custom Set: Solescurio
I have offered reasoning for why Tilde is scum. People labeled it "OMGUS" and "baseless". If they are unwilling to accept facts, then I see no other alternative than to beat the idea into them through repetition and other such methods. I never said, "Tilde is scum because I said so", or anything remotely resembling that. I said, "Tilde is scum because __________, and this is not an invalid read or playstyle because look at the successes I've had with it."
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
In that case, could you provide a concise case? Specifically concerning Tilde, all I can recall is that you put him on your initial scumlist and have been criticizing each of his subsequent responses. If you could specify what aspects of his posts you find scummy in a consolidated case, that'll go a long way towards convincing me and other players.
It's hard to convince even a majority to see things your way. Even after one presents logical and coherent arguments, other players frequently remain unconvinced. At this juncture, it wouldn't help to "beat the idea into them through repetition." All one can do is to continue gathering evidence and pressuring the target. Sometimes, the initial hunch weakens considerably. Other times, however, enough support is gathered for an eventual lynch.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
Attempts to paint me as scummy through something said in the Mafia Theory thread that was said before CIM was even announced to be running. Also, this implies that Tilde is not Cyan.
Suggests that dan is a Jester. Tilde's by no means a new player and should know by this point that on MTGS, Jesters are frowned upon, and are only allowed if announced in the setup. But I can see attempting to paint dan as a Jester as something to the effect of hinting at a (possible) Vig target. Maybe that's reaching a little, but that was my first reaction to possible motives Tilde might have for implicating dan as a Jester.
Also, the whole figuring out dan's post restriction thing reads to me as scum attempting to seem useful.
"Here, let me cast more suspicion on ganderin_dan based on gaming the mod since he can't talk to explain himself!"
"Here, let me cast suspicion on Iso because he thinks I'm scum!" Is it not completely legitimate to change your reads based on new information? Why would Tilde have any reason to put suspicion on me when he expressed none prior to the point where I created my possible scum list?
Complete and total misrepresentation of anything I had said regarding my ability, and reeks of :fish:. Slanderous at best. Malicious intent detected.
More completely unreasonable suspicion after the MOD HAS CONFIRMED THAT THIS IS NOT THE CASE.
DESPITE BOTH DAN AND I MAKING IT CLEAR THAT THIS WAS NOT THE CASE.
"Iso's pro-town action is totally WIFOM, guys!"
"Your first T/S list has no behavioral analysis attached to it, despite that being completely reasonable at this stage in the game! And how dare you allow yourself the ability to be wrong, despite that being completely reasonable at this stage in the game!" Because so frequently all of the scum are caught within the first 150 posts of the game, right, guys?
Does not mesh with the previous statement about allowing myself to be wrong. Blatant smear and baseless discrediting of my reads.
Incidentally, none of this had occurred until AFTER Tilde was on my scum list.
Hey Tilde, remember how you were pushing suspicion on to g_d and then dropped it like a hot potato as soon as he stopped having a PR?
Me, too.
SUDDEN DISBELIEF.
Despite, you know, g_d researching Cyan quotes for hours so that he could communicate with us.
If I were scum, I wouldn't have any reason to remove g_d's PR. It would be within my best interest as scum not to even allude to the fact that I could. So once again, Tilde is attempting to fling dirt my way, despite the fact that my removal of g_d's PR is high risk, low reward if I'm scum.
Totally makes sense, am I right?
And back on this again. Despite all of the information in the thread indicating otherwise, Tilde STILL tries to harp on this. What possible motive could he have for that as town?
Ahh, there's the vote. Tilde, of course, had to put distance between my vote and his to attempt to not make it look like he's just trying to get rid of me for being on his ass. Then attempts to smear me further by misrepresenting my intentions for wanting Eco to provide content, and THEN claims to vote for me based on the long-dead PR issue? dan did not and could not indicate that he could only vote for people Cyan had voted for with his PR in effect, so how could I have known that was the case? TO TOP IT OFF, I WASN'T EVEN CONFIRMED BY THE TIME G_D CONFIRMED. And the person I replaced did not confirm, meaning they could not have induced the PR on dan. Speaking from a chronological standpoint, then, it makes absolutely no sense for Tilde to STILL be pushing this on to me unless he is scum who wants me to get lynched. In regards to the voting restriction, even if I had known that he could not vote for me at the time, once again, what would I have to gain from removing his PR, in that case? Tilde is intentionally pushing a bad wagon and he knows it.
Says the person who isn't Cyan, and probably by direct extension, scum. (I have a theory!)
To my joke of the Cyan PR being impossible. Blatant misrepresentation of two words used. As a joke. Because it's CYAN'S IMPOSSIBLE MAFIA. Hence the /Cyan after that. There is no possible way, as proven by confirmation order, that I could have given dan the post restriction.
See above.
Which Tilde knows full well I did not ask, but rather, addressed. Like I said, looking for any possible excuse he can to paint me as scummy.
Worth noting that he didn't start questioning me until after he voted for me. A vote that was based on a fallacy. After making many, many fallacious accusations.
Fixed.
Now, this is everything that I saw when Tilde was posting.
Now that I've called it to your attention, is it more convincing?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I have a thought, and it could explain why Iso's so fixated on lynching me, but I need to ask a question of everyone though : "Is your rolename a member of the Forums?"
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
Tilde, do you have a case on Iso beyond my being ungagged?
The bit about loaded questions is also patently ridiculous. The POINT of a loaded question is to receive an answer you desire, and that it isn't able to be seen coming, or it wouldn't accomplish anything.
iLord, you've remained rational despite Iso coming at you, guns blazing, and continued to explain why his case on Tilde is based on fluff. WoD barning along while commenting on little else is something I feel we need to take note of.
I've seen both versions of Arcadic, and I think this is the town one. Also think Iso and iLord is town v. town.
Pinky, when you get back, do you plan to provide a more detailed case on Arcadic? I don't think he was overreacting to what you mention in #143. Overreacting to a post not even directed at him seems neigh impossible (46), and a purely opinion-based (although one that I'm willing to say most people agree with, and likely has substantial empirical data to support) reaction to your silly posts about RVS votes.
The scum motive, however, is exactly as he stated. Trying to jump off a wagon, which is what scum have to do to succeed. Thus my thinking your case has a poor foundation.
Actually I have a theory that I'm testing that would throw that case out and put him and you firmly as town in my book. I'd ask Iso directly, but if I'm correct I'd be revealing some information about HIS role.
Iso? Do you want me to say what I'm thinking?
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
Arcadic (2): Gigas1, Wrath_of_DoG
pinkys_brain (2): iLord, Arcadic
iLord (1): Ecophagy
Iso (1): Anaklusmos
~Tilde~ (1): Iso
Not Voting (5): Cyouni, Some One, pinkys_brain, ganderin_dan, ~Tilde~
With 12 alive, it is 7 to lynch.
I'm fixated on lynching you for the aforementioned reasons. As well as the possibility that you're not Cyan.
I could see iLord as possibly being town based on his composure in the face of my questioning.
Say away, but if I don't like what I'm hearing for any reason, I won't give any indication of whether you're correct or not.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Unvote
***
I guess it boils down to a strong gut read: you're presenting your thoughts in clear and direct way, and I feel like you have a pro-town agenda. Difficult to articulate, but at this stage of the game, I feel comfortable trusting you.
***
Re: Arcadic and Pinky.
I broadly agree with iLord's interpretation of events:
Both players seems to be using excessive defensiveness as a key part of their attacks. It is, however, only natural for a player of any alignment to get defensive when being attacked, especially when they consider the attack to be poorly grounded (as is the case here).
A quick look through Pinky's games shows that her questioning of random votes is not something she only does as one alignment, and I feel that Aracdic is placing too much emphasis on something that isn't inherently malicious.
To wit, I don't agree that scum are more likely to end the random stage. I would argue from my intuition that scum are quite happy for the town to blunder and not push the game forward.
In the Conflux mafia example, it seems obvious to me that the random stage was ended solely Sepiriel (A townie) taking the wrong end of the stick and voting me. In fact, I definitely tried to continue the RVS by making jokes.
I am also curious exactly which vote in Softball mafia you're referring to. Aqua was being nervous, but at a quick scan, I don't see him trying to kill the RVS. In fact, it looks like Sepiriel is the culprit (again) for proposing a softclaim in #50.
So, unless you can produce more examples in a statistically significant size, I must disagree with your fundamental point that scum tend to end the random stage.
***
WoD: In post #103, I see you citing Pinky's gut as a reason to vote Arcadic. At that point, what had Pinky done to appear town enough for you to trust her gut? Did you not feel that your own reasoning as strong enough by itself?
Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I feel like there was little possibility of pinky's questioning gaining any momentum.
---------------------------
I'm looking over Iso's case right now and I'll give my opinions in a sec.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
Iso: Do you have something along the lines of this as your role?
"You are Cyan - I'm gonna kill that ~Tilde~!"
meaning that as part of your wincon (which you mentioned wasn't quite normal)
you have to kill ~Tilde~. The ROLENAME ~Tilde~, not me. In a larger game, you'd be the guy tracking down the SK.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
Looking back, it actually does read like it implies Tilde's not Cyan.
Tilde's conspiracy theory with the Mafia Theory thread is sort of his way of saying hello. I don't think he really believes anyone's going to take him seriously.
I think the vig-painting is a stretch. Really, I think Tilde's just spouting every thought that goes through his mind.
This would be more accurate if he wasn't bizarrely advocating not lynching ganderin. As it is, I interpreted this as Tilde flipping out over nothing.
Incidentally, the Ackbar avatar he's referencing was mine.
This was indeed a rather defensive posture that he took. I don't think he's putting suspicion on you as much as he's trying to discredit your suspicion towards him as merely one of three. And yes, I see the inherent contradiction between him criticizing both the baselessness of your scumlist and your disclaimer.
================
Tilde's comments concerning you and ganderin's PR are not very logical. What you detect as malicious intent, I read as Tilde following his personal interpretation in which you being scum apparently made perfect sense.
================
What Tilde's trying to say is "Iso's pro-town action does not definitively determine alignment because scum could do it to look town."
Well, given that he's mostly attacking you because of your scumlist, I can forgive him for that.
I attribute his disbelief as him clinging to his prior schema even after it was becoming readily apparent that it was nonsensical.
I don't agree that removing g_D's PR is a high-risk tactic. I see it sort of as low-risk, low-reward, since it likely cannot backfire too hard on you, but won't contribute significantly to your town cred either.
As is becoming the pattern, it's not really a question of motive, but of logic. Tilde's repeatedly trying to make square boxes fit into round holes, and that's not something that really benefits either scum or town.
The changes above would be the townTilde interpretation. At this point, I can't distinguish anything that would indicate either mindset is more likely than the other.
I don't believe Tilde was following the loaded question discussion very closely. He probably saw that you were advocating their use and assumed that you were defending yourself.
This pretty much sums up Tilde's behavior nicely.
With the majority of your case, I am in complete agreement: Tilde's theory's are not very convincing, he attacks you in retaliation, and he's pretty much slapping together whatever arguments he can.
I do disagree with your interpretation of his mindset. Fundamentally, you believe he doesn't genuinely believe in everything he posts. Given my admittedly limited experience with Tilde, I think he actually does. If you have never played with Tilde before, I urge you to skim over some of his posts in other games. You'll find that his thought process is very consistent with the one he has displayed here.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
No. My win condition is exactly as I stated it.
So you think the possibility of a ~Tilde~ role is an SK? Is there any particular reason for that?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Tilde, another question: Does that mean that you're rolename: ~Tilde~?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Indeed, you're the only one with perfect information on this issue. But from our perspective, the conclusion is not unreasonable.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
If you could allow other people to make detailed defenses to more in-depth questions, it would be appreciated.
I like how you've presented this case much better than what you were doing previously, Iso. Not sure why I didn't mention that earlier. Continue doing this.
I like Eco's most recent post.
Thanks.
????
Arcadic (2): Gigas1, Wrath_of_DoG
pinkys_brain (2): iLord, Arcadic
Iso (1): Anaklusmos
~Tilde~ (1): Iso
Not Voting (6): Cyouni, Some One, pinkys_brain, ganderin_dan, ~Tilde~, Ecophagy
With 12 alive, it is 7 to lynch.
(I don't see what's wrong, dan.)
I don't believe Iso's case was directed towards Tilde. If you'll notice - Tilde posted several times after Iso posted his case and completely ignored it.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
Well that's unhelpful.
I said in a LARGER game. I doubt there's enough room for a 3rd party role in this game. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the scum did have "~Tilde~" as a rolename though. Me being depicted as one of the anti-Cyan forces in this game makes a strange sort of sense flavorwise.
No it doesn't.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
-I found myself siding with Arc @ his 44 vs. PB, but now, I don't know.
-Is the rule sited in Iso's 67 legit? People have to know there is a Jester in the game in order for the role of jester to exist? I would like an answer to this question if anyone knows...if he made it up on the fly, for example, I would find that to be relevant.
-I liked Anakulsmos 88, nice solid poasting.
-I can't recall WoD ever putting more words in a post in my entire life (in reference to 204). Thanks for that TL;DR...hilarious. lol
So, in reference to Iso & ~ & GD:
Did we not get a direct answer from Iso as to WTF happened for him to get GD to talk?
I have MUCH more to say on this topic, but would love that question to be answered first.
I don't know if there's an explicit rule, but my first response to someone declaring the possibility of a jester is something similar, along the lines of "that wouldn't be allowed on MTGS." The last jester in a legit game that I remember was in Greenwood Affair many years ago, which resulted in much discontent.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
I didn't see any posts from Iso on how he lifted GD's PR, just that he said he lifted it.
Don't you know the flavor of your own ability?
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
It bothers me that he was more than willing to claim responsibility for the PR vanishing. And then cares to know the flavor.
He is certainly welcome to address the points. However, you are correct, it was more of an "up for interpretation by everyone else" post...as cases tend to be.
So...
You don't think there's enough room for a 3rd party role in this game.
Then why did you say (underlined emphasis mine)
in one of your earliest posts?
These statements do not mesh. And don't try to pretend you didn't realize that until now. You've played enough games here to know that.
Ask Azrael, or another member of the Mafia Council. It's legit.
I'm not going to say anything in regards to how I removed g_d's PR.
How about you provide what you have to say on the topic instead of waiting for me to reveal anything pertaining to my ability to you?
And I intend to keep it that way.
I was simply informed that the target of my ability would receive a PM advising them of what had happened.
It bothers me that you're more than willing to attempt to skate by without providing any content while parroting and barning.
Do share with us your theories.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Sorry, I misread one individual line, thinking Tilde was voting for Iso still. Derp.
You don't think someone that has a post of that length should warrant it with a direct response?
You should cease modgaming and flavorgaming immediately.
Why? Get off that fence post, it can't be very comfortable.
Why? Be more specific.
The feesh! The feesh!
This is because there are no posts. I am willing to assume he did it. My flavor gives me no information whatsoever on origin. Or flavor.
The feesh! The feesh!
I don't understand why there's a correlation between length and necessity of direct response.
Of all the people who've made similarly unsupported declarations, why are you singling out Anaklumos?
In fact, you can count yourself among that number:
My Custom Set: Solescurio
:|
If I had a second vote, it would be on you.
Provide the content you promised. Now.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Seriously. Is anyone else seeing this? Fishing expedition, fence-sit so hard we can see the post coming out of his mouth, and then says "OH I GOT CALLED ON FISHING WELL I DIDN'T REALLY WANT AN ANSWER LOL"
He says it "bothers" him, but that he doesn't think I'm scum.
Well, why would it bother him if he doesn't think I'm scum?
And to address why I claimed responsibility to begin with: dan is 100% town in my mind. If he posted with this PR for his first few posts and SUDDENLY, he could talk, wouldn't you wonder what the hell happened? Would you not be suspicious of him? I claimed the responsibility of removing his PR because I didn't want dan to get mislynched on the chance that everyone was like, "HAY WTF HAPEND???"
@ganderin_dan: I know I keep asking, but on second thought, it's probably better if you don't out the flavor of the PM you got when I removed your PR. Keep it under wraps for now.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
How would that incriminate Iso?
Maybe.
@Anaklusmos:
Why is that more likely than the alternative?
@Iso:
So if the player's already scummy, it makes them scummy. Otherwise, it means nothing.
Okay...that makes no sense whatsoever.
Why is it "impossible"?
@Some One:
So then, what do you believe about that?
You don't think Iso's scum.
The way he went about it bothers you.
Yet you didn't say you wanted Iso to tell us what happened.
His content was nothing worth waiting for, and I'd like to pressure this guy.
Vote SomeOne
Kay.
Because ganderin_dan started the game with his PR. I did not even have access to the thread at the time he confirmed. Chronologically speaking, it is impossible. I do believe I stated that earlier.
And he did essentially ask me what happened. So he backpedaled after fishing.
I'm Iso, and I approve of this message.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You can't call asking questions related to an action that was public as fishing. Iso claimed it with no pressure or need to claim that he was targeting g_d with it. Its also obvious it did not need to be public, but Iso felt it was nessisarry to post it publicly.
Using some law, once the issue is raised, there is nothing left to stop the line of questions it produces. So, not answering the questions related to it is scummy in my book. You introduced the concept so accept the pressure you created.
Unvote
I've had a weekend to reflect and re-read the pinkys interaction. I still find her push on Ilord and me for a RVS action scummy but not enough to want to lynch her right now.
Vote WOD
His leap onto pinky's case and his vote reeks. He's voting me not based on meta, but can't really explain why his vote is on me? If i was looking for an easy lynch outta pinky with my vote, then why does he think pinky was an easy lynch?
Also, that mis-rep isn't a mis-rep. Its decerning motive. Which apparently isn't helpful and i should stop being a bad boy.
@Ilord : No, i simply cut it out on accident or missed it. I did have to find the games, but i knew that in the past i had seen scum attempt or actually end the RVS by pushing or voting someone for very weak reasoning. Yes, Sep seems to have ended the RVS in Conflux, but its not until Eco pushes the issue that other players accept its death in that game. (directed @ Eco as well here)
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
Is this directed towards me? Because if so, I strongly disagree. It's fishing to ask for more information than what is available on a Need-To-Know basis. Presently, none of you need to know more about my ability than I've revealed, and I intend to keep it that way for now. I explained why I outed the fact that I removed gan_dan's PR. Asking for more information than that is fishing.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I noted a few things I saw briefly.
1) I did ask my question about RVS to get discussion going. I read the rules on how deadline is determined and I had figured in my mind that scum would coast by and deadline could be reached quickly if a discussion did not occur.
2) I saw the ice cream analogy:
This is not close to what happened. If someone in RL or online told me they hated people that liked chocolate ice cream. I would say something to the effect well I guess you are narrow minded twit that can't think outside your own little box.
But I can be ***** at times.
This is mafia. People are prone to accuse people and people are going to react or not react. It all depends on if there is guilt response or if they are more careful types. The bit of time I have played with Arcadic he has never struck me as an emotional player that lashes out and part of how I felt about this view of him is part of why I attacked him in return.
More later.
mafia win/lose record
town (12) 6/6
mafia (2) 2/0
Cult (1) 1/0
3rd party (0) 0/0
mafia record
Also known at mafiascum as farside22