MTG Salvation

Quote from Azrael

Ok, so apart from the discussion about who's next in line to be tapped for the position of fake internet-authority/service, I've been PMing with someone about the possibility of coming up with a loose system of recommended deadlines, based upon both size and complexity.

For example, a mini game with 14 players might have a recommended deadline time of (just spitballing here) 14-16 days, and a high-complexity mini might have a recommended deadline of 18-24 days. It would be up to the individual hosts to decide whether or not to adopt the recommended deadline for their particular game, and to adjust it as the circumstances require, but it might be helpful to give people a baseline idea for what's appropriate, to help keep games moving along at regular clip, and also to help spot overly strict deadline systems.

Thoughts?

Seems unneeded to me. A fix for a problem we don't have.

Quote from Azrael

Ok, so apart from the discussion about who's next in line to be tapped for the position of fake internet-authority/service, I've been PMing with someone about the possibility of coming up with a loose system of recommended deadlines, based upon both size and complexity.

For example, a mini game with 14 players might have a recommended deadline time of (just spitballing here) 14-16 days, and a high-complexity mini might have a recommended deadline of 18-24 days. It would be up to the individual hosts to decide whether or not to adopt the recommended deadline for their particular game, and to adjust it as the circumstances require, but it might be helpful to give people a baseline idea for what's appropriate, to help keep games moving along at regular clip, and also to help spot overly strict deadline systems.

Thoughts?

I don't have a problem with recommended deadlines for game types, but I wouldn't want to do anymore than that at least initially since deadlines are a tricky business since games vary so much in time needed due to a multitude of reasons.

But then again don't most games already have deadlines that seem to work as intended?

Ok, so apart from the discussion about who's next in line to be tapped for the position of fake internet-authority/service, I've been PMing with someone about the possibility of coming up with a loose system of recommended deadlines, based upon both size and complexity.

Says a guy that is part of said fake service. Seriously though, point well stated.

As for deadlines..do we really need fixed deadline rules? Are games consistently running long right now or something? I'm only really playing one game at a time these days, but none of them have really been lacking activity, barring unusual circumstances. Being under a deadline pretty much ensures that gameplay will be sub-optimal, and creates game-states that are easy for scum to exploit. I don't feel like this should just become a staple part of every game.

tl;dr - What Kpaca said.

I'm with Kpaca and Cyan, here.

Mods should be setting sensible deadlines for their games - it's their responsibility. If a newer mod isn't sure what that should be, check with the reviewers for advice?

*nods* That's always been my stance over the years, favoring giving the host full discretion to determine the best pace for their particular game, but I thought I'd pass along the suggestion and see if folks saw a need for it.

Only in League games, really, and we've got that covered.

DYH doesn't have a council tag.

Oh, on topic, don't think that's needed.

I think posting a loose deadline guideline in the hosting thread is a decent idea.

However, and it seems like there's general consensus here, it should NOT be anything more than a guideline.

I think suggested deadlines would be good to add to the hosting thread or at least put forth somewhere. I think, while games aren't necessarily running sluggishly (usually), they sometimes have a tendency to run too long because mods confuse all discussion with good discussion. If a town feels like they can take the time on pointless digressions, they'll happily do so.

While that doesn't necessarily hurt that game, if a game runs overlong, it hurts other games by capturing its player's attention for longer spans of time, making it harder to fill future games. I think expedience of gameplay is as much an advantage of deadlines as maintaining focus.

At the very least, I think mods should at least set deadlines at the beginning of each day, and should be largely unwavering in the face of extension requests. While more mods are doing the former these days, I think both of these changes would be good for business and should be more prevalent.

I'd at least be curious to see someone do a comparison of the various approaches to running deadlines, see if there are ballpark time-frames that might be feasible benchmarks or if it's all just complete variance, pick some sample games that have suffered from lack of deadlines or too-stringent deadlines, and maybe compile that into article form as a resource for people to consult and/or wrangle over as needed. It's a hosting issue that isn't ordinarily discussed, theory-crafted, or debated a great deal, but it can certainly have a pretty big impact on outcomes.

I'm actually studying and working on this very same subject Az. I have just finished an "experiment" in my basic that has just ended and I can write something after I receive all feedback and stuff.

Quote from Zionite

Quote from zindabad

I will also put myself forward for the vacancy.

I haven't officially announced this yet, but I'm retiring from playing at the end of my participation in Cyberspace Mafia. I plan to devote all of my Mafia-related time to becoming a better host and getting really involved with the reviewing, hosting, and queue side of things on this site (and of course to designing my own setups.) I feel that my long experience as a host and player and my strong convictions will be a benefit to the council and the community as a whole.

TBH, this is only going to distance yourself from what it is like to play Mafia. It's like a chef who doesn't taste his own food. You are also removing yet another player from the base that newbies could learn from.

It may be a time constraint for you, and I understand that, but don't expect it to make your games better or your reviews more nuanced.

I'll also say that as a player it's totally cool to see a council member in your game. It changes the dynamic of the game and feels like you are playing with the pros. I find myself more active in games with a council member participating.

The decision to call time on playing Mafia and the decision to make myself available for the Mafia Council are not related. I would've quit at the end of Cyberspace Mafia if atlseal had not announced his retirement. It's a decision I reached months ago and is not some kind of ploy to make me a better candidate for selection. To be quite honest, I am insulted that you would attempt to insinuate such in this post, and will now ask you to retract that.

Quote from DRey

I'm actually studying and working on this very same subject Az. I have just finished an "experiment" in my basic that has just ended and I can write something after I receive all feedback and stuff.

Cool, sounds good.

Shoot it my way when it's ready.

Quote from zindabad

Quote from Zionite

Quote from zindabad

I will also put myself forward for the vacancy.

I haven't officially announced this yet, but I'm retiring from playing at the end of my participation in Cyberspace Mafia. I plan to devote all of my Mafia-related time to becoming a better host and getting really involved with the reviewing, hosting, and queue side of things on this site (and of course to designing my own setups.) I feel that my long experience as a host and player and my strong convictions will be a benefit to the council and the community as a whole.

TBH, this is only going to distance yourself from what it is like to play Mafia. It's like a chef who doesn't taste his own food. You are also removing yet another player from the base that newbies could learn from.

It may be a time constraint for you, and I understand that, but don't expect it to make your games better or your reviews more nuanced.

I'll also say that as a player it's totally cool to see a council member in your game. It changes the dynamic of the game and feels like you are playing with the pros. I find myself more active in games with a council member participating.

The decision to call time on playing Mafia and the decision to make myself available for the Mafia Council are not related. I would've quit at the end of Cyberspace Mafia if atlseal had not announced his retirement. It's a decision I reached months ago and is not some kind of ploy to make me a better candidate for selection. To be quite honest, I am insulted that you would attempt to insinuate such in this post, and will now ask you to retract that.

I wasn't referring to you in that post; I was addressing Drey's argument that choosing between partially active zindabad and not active zindabad is problematic. It wasn't meant as a jab toward you; sorry I wasn't more clear.

What I really wanted to hear was a response to my point about distancing yourself from the players. Don't you think that, over time, you'd lose touch with what it's like to actually play the game?

I believe that a guideline for deadlines would prove useful to newer Mafia Mods. The guidelines don't have to be a "set in stone rules" for deadlines, but just something to assist in determining deadlines.

I had no issues when I ran Basic #69 HTTYD Mafia and I used the League deadline system to help determine fair deadlines.

Having deadline guidelines would be useful, even if just in a "best practices guidelines" or "suggestions for new mods" form. My first game ran a really long Day 1 because I wasn't really aware of how long it should have taken.

Any thoughts on launching a PCQ at the moment? The last FTQ just filled up nearly instantly with 12 people randomed out. That's a decent bit of unmet demand.

Quote from Zionite

What I really wanted to hear was a response to my point about distancing yourself from the players. Don't you think that, over time, you'd lose touch with what it's like to actually play the game?

Not at all. I'd be involved with a lot of reviewing, reading a lot of games, taking with other hosts about how to improve our designs and tailor setups to the current meta. Through that, I'd keep up-to-date on the playerbase and the experience of playing.

And I'm not completely ruling out a return to playing. If DYH and arimnaes and the others can come out of retirement, why couldn't I? But for the foreseeable future, I think it would be a better use of my time to dedicate myself to something I'm very passionate about, which is hosting. That's something I'm doing regardless of the outcome of my candidacy for the council.

Quote from zindabad

And I'm not completely ruling out a return to playing. If DYH and arimnaes and the others can come out of retirement, why couldn't I? But for the foreseeable future, I think it would be a better use of my time to dedicate myself to something I'm very passionate about, which is hosting. That's something I'm doing regardless of the outcome of my candidacy for the council.

For what it's worth, you are easily one of my favorite hosts and I'm just super excited that you'll still be making games.

Now that I don't enjoy playing with you too, but I'm always invigorated to start playing again when I see a Zinda game popping up.

Quote from Asenion

Any thoughts on launching a PCQ at the moment? The last FTQ just filled up nearly instantly with 12 people randomed out. That's a decent bit of unmet demand.

Not necessary - the next League game is starting up soon, as well.

Quote from Asenion

Any thoughts on launching a PCQ at the moment? The last FTQ just filled up nearly instantly with 12 people randomed out. That's a decent bit of unmet demand.

We'll keep an eye on that. I'd like to have at least three setups in the running before we fire off a PCQ, at the moment, we have (potentially) two.

Maybe three, if my push to complete work on my latest keeps up steam.

Quote from ganderin_dan

DYH doesn't have a council tag.

In the interest of full disclosure, and in case there's any clarification needed here: I am not currently a member of the Council.

I resigned my post when I retired (which became code for "hiatus", as it turns out), but I have expressed to Azrael, AI, and Eco that I'd gladly resume those duties if desired.

@deadlines and moderation I have suggested this like 2 years ago and I want to suggest it again. From my experience it's not that uncommon that hosts find themselves with problems, hosts, as players are humans beings and are succestible to problems. However I think it's unfair for dozens of people(players) to suffer because one (host) of them is having personal problems when that could easily be avoidable by having a second/backup mod, seriously there's not a reason for all games to not have one, it's a win-win situation.

If the main host has difficulty with issuing deadlines, providing VC, writing flavor, personal life, the co-host can greatly help. When my basic started I didn't expect to have any difficulties with it but when unexpected stuff happened Prophy was there to keep the game's alive and well. Considering all games passes thought reviewers I think one of them could easily be the co-mod just in case.

Quote from Rhand

I would love to play in Iso's FTQ, but I'm in 3 games already (Vanilla Mafia 2, Unseen University and Famous Historical).
I also would like to join the next league game.
Can I get an exception on the 3 games rule? I think some of my games will end soon, but I'm not 100% sure.

In the past I would have agreed with this, you are a very active and have a great future imho. However with more experienced I'm starting to think like ZDS about this. The 3 games mafia is a nice compromise and even for a very active/responsible guy like you playing in so many games can both burn you out and make you play subpar in your game, hurting your team and potentially raising bad feelings.

TLDR: Try to dedicate more time to your 3 game you are in, post more, do rereads, do stuff. I'm pretty sure in the long run it will be better for you to don't play in 4 games simultaneously.

Quote from Guardman

We've survived much worse from the gutter fallout to the rampage of extremeicon.

Ohhh, I don't know about this, what did EI do?

Quote from kpaca

I didnt realize this was a lifetime achievement award.

You misunderstood me, I meant Zinda was ready years ago, now that he has even more experience and maturity he's turned even better for the spot.

Quote from Guardman

I am totally going to be putting words in his mouth, but I think it has more to do with Zinda not playing. And the more I think about it the more I agree with him that if Zinda is retiring from playing he probably shouldn't be on the council. This is nothing against Zinda, as I think he would be a great council member, but more that not playing does leave you disconnected from the playerbase.

This is unreasonable, Azrael rarely plays nowadays would you say he's not fit for the position? And how about atlseal? He stopped playing a long time ago and it was never an issue. Of course it's better for we to have active members of the council playing(who doesn't love playing with them:) but one's inactivity/low activity was never an issue in the past, why it should be now?

Quote from Zionite

Isn't that kind of like saying "if I don't get it my way, then I'm taking my ball and going home"? I don't think keeping your own activity level hostage is the way to get a council position.

You shouldn't need to change your activity at all to get on the council. You're either a perfect fit or you're not. An attempt to fit the mold is an admission that you don't belong there naturally.

I don't know what you are talking about, I never said this btw, from what I got, Zinda wants to focus his energies in hosting/reviewing, this has nothing to do with anything council-related...

Quote from Azrael

For example, a mini game with 14 players

Is that even allowed? I remember Gman asking for 13 players mini (an idea I still support) but 14 is unheard of, or I'm crazy?

Quote from zindabad

And I'm not completely ruling out a return to playing. If DYH and arimnaes and the others can come out of retirement, why couldn't I? But for the foreseeable future, I think it would be a better use of my time to dedicate myself to something I'm very passionate about, which is hosting. That's something I'm doing regardless of the outcome of my candidacy for the council.

It's funny but I'm thinking about going the same way. Mafia drains a lot of time, and I find myself having a hard time to deal with people irate at me again and again. My acid playstyle combined with my critical approach and bluntness usually confuse people making they think I'm an arrogant prick.

The fact that I was banned for an in-game joke (and eventually suspended for two weeks in an unprecedented harsh punishment for an inexistent crime) and no one stepped up to defend me (but there was much rejoice) also made me very sad and reevaluate what I'm doing here in the first place.

So before being "banned" from here because no one wants to play with me, I think it's better to focus on something I learned to love, mafia game design.

EDIT: Now knowing DYH isn't council, make him and Zinda please. kthanksbye

For the record, I was an advocate of size-related queue structure, where 14 was the cut-off for smaller games.

@DRey - extremeicon: He went on a power trip and tried to make and enforce new rules even though he didn't understand anything about mafia or play it. Part of the problem was site wide with him, part of it was a non-mafia player was a mod for this forum. It was pretty bad.

@DRey - zinda: Azreal does play. Maybe not as much as he used to, but he does play and is involved in games. This keeps him connected to the playerbase in a way that just overseeing things and modding games does not. As for atlseal, I forgot he was on the council until he announced he was stepping down.

Just a reminder to the Council that we League representatives still need to hear from you on that meeting schedule.

Quote from Iso

Just a reminder to the Council that we League representatives still need to hear from you on that meeting schedule.

We're currently occupied with the changing of personnel and will get back to you when the dust has settled.

Work faster, figureheads!

Quote from Iso

Just a reminder to the Council that we League representatives still need to hear from you on that meeting schedule.

We were thinking it'd be easier to accomplish via thread than to coordinate AIM. I'd say we pretty much know where we stand currently on the subject, but in case the new guy(s) have different takes, we don't want to step on their toes.

I suppose the other question to be resolved amongst ourselves is whether we ought to wait for a new mod appointment before making the council personnel decision, and the timetable on that is out of our hands.

No word on my app yet, last I heard, my interview was awaiting Mod readings.

Ok, as part of our ongoing discussions, the idea of whipping the contact list into a bit better shape came up.

As is, I think Iso's got more than enough on his plate, but we'd like to find someone who can be a dedicated player contact list updater/sender for us.

Quote from Hosting Thread »

If your name is on the player contact list, you will be PM'd by the game host or the mafia secretary the next time a new game signup thread is created.

This is how the hosting thread currently reads, but apparently, the responsibility is now exclusively the province of game hosts. Right now, I'm not certain that all our hosts are consistently aware of the fact that they (Not Iso) were expected to comb through the list and send a notification. (Can we get an informal head count of people who were aware of that, versus those who weren't?)

That being the case, we might want to have someone who can take primary responsibility for doing that, so that we don't have new players sign up and never get pinged to join. The list is also going to need some updating, from time to time. Say, every six months or so.

With a more fully accurate list , we should be able to more accurately gauge the current demand for games, and figure out whether we should be firing additional slots and PCQs.

I nominate Arnnaria.

I was still under the impression that Iso would PM me when a signup went up while I was on the list, not the game host. However, hosts should be responsible for PMing for replacements. Maybe that's where the disconnect happened.

Quote from Zionite

I was still under the impression that Iso would PM me when a signup went up while I was on the list, not the game host. However, hosts should be responsible for PMing for replacements. Maybe that's where the disconnect happened.

This is the impression I had.

Also I think having one person being responsible for it who is known is better then having the game host randomly PM people. I know of many people on this forum that don't open PMs from people they don't know or aren't expecting one from. Having a person who's responsibility it is to PM people when a new sign-up is posted would increase opening of the PM rate.

I'm talking to the Council about taking over responsibility of PMing players on the list. This way there is one person dedicated to the Player Contact List for both Sign-Ups and Replacements and that will help avoid any confusion in the future.

I mean a message titled "Mafia Player Contact List" is pretty self-explanatory regardless of who it's from.

Quote from Iso

I mean a message titled "Mafia Player Contact List" is pretty self-explanatory regardless of who it's from.

You would be surprised how much who it is from influences opening rate for PMs regardless of subject. From my totally non-scientific scientific analysis, it is actually a fair amount or I just suck at titling things.

I'm willing to bet it's the latter.

Definitively the latter, also the " read receipt" feature of this forum is bugged.

Well that would explain why nobody responded to the sale I was having.

Well, I'm not quite so sure we'll need a member to do this in the long run. The techs for the site have a long list of stuff on their "to do" list, but from what I understand, one of the items is to provide a way to "mass PM" a list of people. So, while we would still need a human to be able to do this manually, it will become less of a problem if that feature is ever implemented.

[Edit: The reason I was talking to an Admin about this was because I was trying to figure out if there was a simpler way to PM everyone on the league roster than just manually.]

Quote from Azrael

Can we get an informal head count of people who were aware of that, versus those who weren't?

I know how this works now, but when I ran my last game, I didn't know I was supposed to contact those players. So, I agree that having someone in charge of that is a good idea.

I was doing it for a while but I always asked the mod first, "Hey, do you want to do this, or should I?" and it was always, "You do it." So I felt like I was getting taken advantage of in that respect and just started advising mods to do it when their setups were taking some time to fill.

That's fine, but if an issue like that pops up, be sure to let us know. We want to make sure our instructions are accurate and get everyone onto the same page, or else the system is going to start breaking down and people will slip through the cracks in our recruiting efforts.

I think having Void/Arn/a separate non-Iso non-council non-host entity do it is correct, and fine.

We've given Void the green light.

Do you want me to still upkeep the list, since I delete the posts and everything?

Quote from Iso

Do you want me to still upkeep the list, since I delete the posts and everything?

I'd say tag-team it? I've given Void Mafiascribe access, so the two of you can confer and work out the best system for making sure that all the folks on the list are still actively looking every six months or so, and what to do if one or the other of you is absent.

Is the discussion about nested quotes still ongoing or was it settled during my tenure away? I personally think they suck in the mafia sub and I know Ive seen a few other players (dyh maybe?) express disdain as well.

Quote from kpaca

Is the discussion about nested quotes still ongoing or was it settled during my tenure away? I personally think they suck in the mafia sub and I know Ive seen a few other players (dyh maybe?) express disdain as well.

I don't believe a verdict was ever reached and talking just sort of died down without anyhting being final other than Nested Quotes staying in the Mafia Sub Forum. A few players here have voiced their opinion stating that Nested Quotes need to go.