MTG Salvation

Quote from Azrael

In light of that, I don't think anyone cares to read the above. Delete?

No reply. I'll take it completely down when I receive one.

On another note, to demonstrate:

* Artifice 101 throws up in his mouth a little bit.

This new feature creates a backhanded lack of comentary in a normal thread. Mafia games are not a place for such things.

Mostly unrelated to Artifice and Arcadic's comments, I am currently pondering ways to enforce the "civility ultimatum" in the future without going on a total power trip. My first thought was to institute suspensions and allow the users to counter them: three users can vouch for an offender on the first offense to void the sentence, and the number of users bumps up by 2-3 with each offense. It seemed like poetic justice to require users to be more mindful of others' feelings.

Potentially, it could also engender even more divisiveness. (EDIT: Or it might do the reverse, by requiring people to actually spend more time thinking about being nice to one another, and not just to their own current, tight-knit group of associates but everybody. Perhaps, if the vouchers could be sent either publicly or privately, that could work.)

At the same time, I really wouldn't feel very comfortable having the council take on the mantle of the politeness police on a case by case basis without any community control. That seems just as iffy and controversial, if not moreso. I wouldn't be particularly thrilled about calling in increased moderator presence to do the same thing, either.

*drums fingers on the tabletop, frowns, eyes the banhammer* I don't like being tempted to start going on a smashy rampage. It's not a healthy thing.

EDIT EDIT: Another idea would be to take a cue from the Amish. Any time someone blows their cool, take the offending post and include it in a hall of shame to be immortalized forever. Game hosts would be free to consult the archive, similar to the probation list.

man, i feel certain hall of shame posts would be worn like a badge of honor

Quote from poggydude

man, i feel certain hall of shame posts would be worn like a badge of honor

Quote from UserB »

Quote from UserA »

>2v1 Endgame as Jester. Vanilla and Roleblocker left
> UserA starts spamming with links to porn
> UserA gets lynched
> UserA gets banned from Epicmafia... again.

You are my hero.

The above is an example of the system failing, due perhaps to the anonymity of the Internet and lack of shame that results (at least for certain users).

I agree with ZDS; we should give game hosts more power when it comes to deciding which players to allow into their games, and to do so, they should make sure that they are aware of which players have had problems in the past; consulting the Probation list should be on every game host's agenda.

Quote from AsianInvasion

The above is an example of the system failing, due perhaps to the anonymity of the Internet and lack of shame that results (at least for certain users).

I agree with ZDS; we should give game hosts more power when it comes to deciding which players to allow into their games, and to do so, they should make sure that they are aware of which players have had problems in the past; consulting the Probation list should be on every game host's agenda.

Don't they already have that power with those lists? They may not be transparent about it, but they certainly have the right to refuse anyone's /in to their game because of those lists. Isn't the problem also more that hosts can't be as selective with their /ins because the playerbase has diversified into people who like certain games over the other as well?

My problem with being exclusive about who can join your games is that we're already stretched rather thin as far as the playerbase goes - if you want to be picky about who's in your game, then random them out and have them as a replacement. If you don't want them to replace, make sure your players and replacements aren't going to replace out. Commitment is a large issue in this subforum and, since the replace/modkill/etc. list is pretty much not used when hosts consider who's joining their game (sans a few exceptions), I don't think we can really be too picky about who joins our games, as long as they're not just a chronic replacer.

Not to throw him under the bus, but when I ran my Basic, Gigas1 sent me a PM asking me if he could play in it and promised he wouldn't be inactive or need replacement. (Spoilers: He had to be replaced due to inactivity.) Needless to say, he certainly won't be on any of my player lists, except perhaps as a replacement due to things of this nature. It just hurts the health of the game - which is why I wouldn't frown on a mod bumping out a chronic replacer in this situation. If a player also announced that they'd be V/LA prior to the game beginning, I feel that would be another acceptable situation to bump them into the replacement list for.

That being said, does anyone have anything we CAN do about problem players, besides probation? I don't think we need to reward people who replace in frequently, as the people who do are rewarded by being able to help further the games we are able to run on the site. But if we're already stretched thin, unless we want the amount of games running to be completely inconsistent, we should probably address chronic replacement-requiring players beyond probation (as that also limits the number of players available to join the game).

I think the biggest problem with the mafia forums is the amount of double standards that are here.
I'll use myself as an example, so that I don't speak out of turn for anyone else, but I have seen this happen with other people.

I have watched as myself was literally picked on by some players. Loran and Cyan literally thought it was fine for them to have a quote in lorans sig calling me gay or saying that playing with me was gay. Which really in my opinion only speaks volumes of the kind of person they are that they think that is an insult. But here is the point, nothing was done about it. I am sure that many people saw it, but nobody said nothing. My feelings were hurt about it at the time, and I think I said something offensive, and I got an infraction for it, while Loran got nothing for having that in his sig.
I can go on and on. Its pretty sad how much I can go on. The fact is though, that I have seen very few other people get infractions, even though when people are rude to me and I am just as rude, I get an infraction or people get upset about something I posted.
I literally had a mod in a recent game, making promises to infract me if other people reported my posts, and then when I brought it up I got an apology from another mod on his behavior. What a joke.

So here is the problem. The problem in my opinion is with the moderators. There is soooooo much grey lines here that it is quite confusing.

How is it acceptable to literally be as offensive as you can? But then when that person calls you an idiot that is a infractable offense?
To me there is no rime or reason to it. So, how is anyone supposed to know what is acceptable or not?

In the end this to me is not a player problem its a mod problem. The moderators caused this and they need to do something about it, and no I don't think any of us want Nazi Germany to be instituted, but you need to start being fair about how you deal with these things.

Quote from Iso

My problem with being exclusive about who can join your games is that we're already stretched rather thin as far as the playerbase goes - if you want to be picky about who's in your game, then random them out and have them as a replacement. If you don't want them to replace, make sure your players and replacements aren't going to replace out. Commitment is a large issue in this subforum and, since the replace/modkill/etc. list is pretty much not used when hosts consider who's joining their game (sans a few exceptions), I don't think we can really be too picky about who joins our games, as long as they're not just a chronic replacer.

Not to throw him under the bus, but when I ran my Basic, Gigas1 sent me a PM asking me if he could play in it and promised he wouldn't be inactive or need replacement. (Spoilers: He had to be replaced due to inactivity.) Needless to say, he certainly won't be on any of my player lists, except perhaps as a replacement due to things of this nature. It just hurts the health of the game - which is why I wouldn't frown on a mod bumping out a chronic replacer in this situation. If a player also announced that they'd be V/LA prior to the game beginning, I feel that would be another acceptable situation to bump them into the replacement list for.

That being said, does anyone have anything we CAN do about problem players, besides probation? I don't think we need to reward people who replace in frequently, as the people who do are rewarded by being able to help further the games we are able to run on the site. But if we're already stretched thin, unless we want the amount of games running to be completely inconsistent, we should probably address chronic replacement-requiring players beyond probation (as that also limits the number of players available to join the game).

I am going to hit this one too.

I have been around on this site for a long time. I have watched Niv, DC and others get to post once a week or once every two weeks and at the end of the game they might have 30 posts in a 6 month game. This is not acceptable.

All of our rules clearly state, 3 days. THREE DAYS. At the point where someone is gone for a week between every post its time to replace them. And then you need to report them. Furthermore, the rule where only the host can request something after the game needs to be removed.

There is a lot of people playing favorites, and I have watched DC and Niv specifically not be reported when they should have. What is the point of having these lists if you don't actually keep them up to date and use them?

I have an idea actually. Make a public spreadsheet with a list of players that have replaced out since last year or some thing. What this would acomplish:

a)Players that are chronic replacers will be easily noted, and maybe will correct themselves in shame from this "bad" propaganda. In worst case they will leave the site, and that may be good because I don't think anyone will miss a player that has replaced out 99% of his games or something.
b)Mods will exactly know what they are going into when they see a players has replaced out 100 times. It's much more telling than "X is on probation for chronic replacement".
c)Players that have never replaced out will be valued more, mods can/will search them when the situation is dire, and that's good.

Example:
DRey replaced out # times since june 2011
Iso replaced out #-3 times since june 2011
X replaced out #-4 times since june 2011

Signing to play a game of mafia is like a contract, when you signup to play you have the duty to stick until the bitter end, no matter how "bad" the mod, your teamates, or how much you dislike the game. If you can't take the pressure for any reason do not signup to play, just spectate or something.
Of course real life is a thing and happens, but a player usually has some control of his life. You know when Diablo will be released and will suck you up, you know when the time of your final exams will come, you know when you will travel for holidays. If you know this will eventually happen, do not signup please.

Quote from DRey

I have an idea actually. Make a public spreadsheet with a list of players that have replaced out since last year or some thing. What this would acomplish:

a)Players that are chronic replacers will be easily noted, and maybe will correct themselves in shame from this "bad" propaganda. In worst case they will leave the site, and that may be good because I don't think anyone will miss a player that has replaced out 99% of his games or something.
b)Mods will exactly know what they are going into when they see a players has replaced out 100 times. It's much more telling than "X is on probation for chronic replacement".
c)Players that have never replaced out will be valued more, mods can/will search them when the situation is dire, and that's good.

Example:
DRey replaced out # times since june 2011
Iso replaced out #-3 times since june 2011
X replaced out #-4 times since june 2011

Signing to play a game of mafia is like a contract, when you signup to play you have the duty to stick until the bitter end, no matter how "bad" the mod, your teamates, or how much you dislike the game. If you can't take the pressure for any reason do not signup to play, just spectate or something.
Of course real life is a thing and happens, but a player usually has some control of his life. You know when Diablo will be released and will suck you up, you know when the time of your final exams will come, you know when you will travel for holidays. If you know this will eventually happen, do not signup please.

We have something akin to this in the mafia hosting signups already. The problem is that the moderators don't use it.

Quote from Deaths_Vampire

We have something akin to this in the mafia hosting signups already. The problem is that the moderators don't use it.

The mods don't use it because the way the list is today is somehow useless. It's hard to add people to it, it gets obsolete fast, and it's somehow vague (compare "chronic replacement" to "replaced out 7 times")

Let's compare both ideas with fictitious numbers.

Annorax - Self-nominated for mod WTFery
Dakkon33327
Deaths_Vampire - Self nominated
GiftsTrix - Chronic replacement
Gigas1- Chronic Replacement
Heartwork - Chronic Replacement
Jedcaj
Menma
Natirasha
Pod - Chronic replacement
Reya Cookiebringer - Chronic replacement
Silent Prophet - Chronic replacement
Swinkee - Nominated for Disappearing out of Doomsday Mafia, as per the game rules.
Zchinque - Self nominated, chronic replacement

Name - # of times replaced
Annorax - 13
Dakkon33327 - 12
Deaths_Vampire - 12
GiftsTrix - 12
Gigas1- 10
Heartwork - 10
Jedcaj - 10
Menma - 10
Natirasha - 10
Pod - 9
Reya Cookiebringer - 8
Silent Prophet - 5
Swinkee - 4
Zchinque - 1

I think the second list give the mods a much clearer picture of the problem and they will act accordingly with the top members.

Quote from DRey

The mods don't use it because the way the list is today is somehow useless. It's hard to add people to it, it gets obsolete fast, and it's somehow vague (compare "chronic replacement" to "replaced out 7 times")

Let's compare both ideas with fictitious numbers.






I think the second list give the mods a much clearer picture of the problem and they will act accordingly with the top members.

Well if you open up the quotes you see more replacement information in there. Its incredibly annoying to me to have my name on there SINCE I HAVE ASKED MULTIPLE TIMES for it to be removed(not for you Drey for the powers that be).

That being said I do like your list, but it still suffers from the same vagueness.

I believe DRey has a good point.

D_V if you have a problem with a post directed towards you then hit the report button. Mods dont catch everything on their own (its impossible). Your upset that youre getting infracted and others dont may stem from the fact that they are hitting the button and your not.

Signing to play a game of mafia is like a contract, when you signup to play you have the duty to stick until the bitter end, no matter how "bad" the mod, your teamates, or how much you dislike the game. If you can't take the pressure for any reason do not signup to play, just spectate or something.

The issue with the above is that just allows people to bully others with no regards and make the experience miserable. You are more willing to make someone sit through a game in which they are harassed or at worst boardline bullying by a player and tell them too bad put up or get out attitude.
The worst part about this attitude from Drey, is if you say a word about it in thread you get flagged by moderation and if you don't, you sit there and bring down which ever side you are on.
The rules of online gaming is simple.

It's a game, everyone should be having fun.

Enough said.

I have never replaced out of a game because, short of an emergency or suddenly not having internet (which, hell, I'd consider that an emergency), it's disrespectful to the mod, the players, and the subforum as a whole. Even if I wasn't having fun in a game, I have never replaced out. It's a commitment, and as DRey said, you should be aware of what's happening and when in your life, short of an emergency.

Addressing DRey's post: Every player that has replaced out or been modkilled is noted in the hosting thread, which what games they replaced out/got modkilled in. There's also a list of every completed game in that thread, so players are able to see how long ago that game was. We already implement that, but thank you for the suggestion.

The problem is, punitive systems rarely "work".

If you want to see progress, start rewarding players for completing games. A hall of fame / reward system would work better than a punishment system.

Quote from Arnnaria

The problem is, punitive systems rarely "work".

If you want to see progress, start rewarding players for completing games. A hall of fame / reward system would work better than a punishment system.

when the punishments start approaching blacklisting players they tend to get the job done

The thing is that we simultaneously have a replacement/commitment issue as well as a constant outcry for more games to be run. If we cut down the number of games to encourage replacement, players fall foul of random.org and complain that there aren't enough games. If we increase the number of games, replacements pretty much don't exist which will foster more modkills or even game death.

Rock and a hard place.

Quote from tordeck

I believe DRey has a good point.

D_V if you have a problem with a post directed towards you then hit the report button. Mods dont catch everything on their own (its impossible). Your upset that youre getting infracted and others dont may stem from the fact that they are hitting the button and your not.

You miss understand me. I have seen this happen with plenty of other players, and since you and I know what you are talking about, let me just say that with that situation, I would never have said what I said if another player who posted exactly the same thing to me in the same game would have been punished or warned, but he wasn't, so I took that as a go ahead. I am talking about situations like that. Its a double standard and it needs to stop.

I have pointed out other things to the powers that be. I am currently waiting on a response. But I can be frank with the fact that the responses I have gotten haven't denied anything I have said, but have simply ignored my points.

Quote from Deaths_Vampire

You miss understand me. I have seen this happen with plenty of other players, and since you and I know what you are talking about, let me just say that with that situation, I would never have said what I said if another player who posted exactly the same thing to me in the same game would have been punished or warned, but he wasn't, so I took that as a go ahead.

Was this after you reported said behavior?

Seeing something that hasn't been warned/infracted is never a good indicator to determine what's OK. Mods don't see everything. Plenty of posts get by because they're simply overlooked.

It warms my heart so to see people okay with those that bully but damn you for replacing out because you couldn't put up with the attitude, smearing remarks or out and out nasty comments that were not mafia releated.

Quote from pinkys_brain

It warms my heart so to see people okay with those that bully but damn you for replacing out because you couldn't put up with the attitude, smearing remarks or out and out nasty comments that were not mafia releated.

Say what? Nasty non-mafia-related comments should get reported.

I'm not really sure who's getting "damned" anyway. At most, people are talking about a "chronic replacers" list, which doesn't really seem like damning someone to me, just an observation of past behavior.

I think there's two conversations going on at once here.

Quote from Arnnaria

I think there's two conversations going on at once here.

Not unlikely.

Quote from Archonoid

Say what? Nasty non-mafia-related comments should get reported.

I'm not really sure who's getting "damned" anyway. At most, people are talking about a "chronic replacers" list, which doesn't really seem like damning someone to me, just an observation of past behavior.

Go read Drey's comment about those that replace:

Quote from DRey

Signing to play a game of mafia is like a contract, when you signup to play you have the duty to stick until the bitter end, no matter how "bad" the mod, your teamates, or how much you dislike the game. If you can't take the pressure for any reason do not signup to play, just spectate or something.
Of course real life is a thing and happens, but a player usually has some control of his life. You know when Diablo will be released and will suck you up, you know when the time of your final exams will come, you know when you will travel for holidays. If you know this will eventually happen, do not signup please.

Along with DV's comment which reading what happened and comments made where no mafia related comments that should not have been stated.

Sure you can push that button and it stops a person temparily, but in the long run what stops the opinions of people that border between snarky/mean comments that are rude and that of a person's opinion and everyone is aloud to have them?

What I'm trying to say is, in regards to DV, those comments should not even have happened.
For me and being the new kid there was deffinately some attitudes of those that know better and think anyone who is new and bring a different idea is to be snarked at and belittled.


When I see the replacement is an issue I have to ask, what reason's are those replacements, is it mostly new people, is it RL issues, it is people that are typical flakers?

@Iso: I looked at the list for replacement/modkill. I know for sure that I replaced out of 300 Mafia (forgot the basic number). Not sure if anything else is missing but I thought I would mention what I know about myself.

Quote from pinkys_brain

Go read Drey's comment about those that replace:

I'm not seeing any damning there. Maybe frowning upon.

Along with DV's comment which reading what happened and comments made where no mafia related comments that should not have been stated.

Sure you can push that button and it stops a person temparily, but in the long run what stops the opinions of people that border between snarky/mean comments that are rude and that of a person's opinion and everyone is aloud to have them?

I'm having difficulty understanding you.
Are you concerned about people who habitually toe the line of what is permitted? Report them anyway and point out the existence of a trend.

Reading DV's description of a past situation, he seems to have been upset that someone called him gay in an insulting way. That's definitely against the rules. Did someone report those posts, with no follow-up action?

What I'm trying to say is, in regards to DV, those comments should not even have happened.

It's easy to say that something should not have happened. It may even be true. But the mods here can't really prevent people from posting things, only react after the fact. If they know that bad behavior is going on, and don't take action, that is indeed a problem - but it is also possible that they simply didn't know about a particular case of bad behavior. Hence my emphasis on reporting - I am trying to figure out whether your concern reflects insufficient moderator action, or whether it's simply things sliding under the radar.

@Arch: I personally see more toeing the line and I pointed it out one day to Azrael. DV mentions that he pointed out the issue as well with no response.

The problem with toeing the line is up to interpretation.

Also I looked and I don't see the replacement issue as huge as people are making it. There are a few people that keep replacing out, that most are aware of and some are newbs that just either flaked out or forgot about the game (not sure on that).

Quote from Shalako

Could DV link to whatever he is talking about?

As far as I know using "Gay" in that way is an infractable offense with no questions asked.

I think the Spread Sheet is a great Idea and would add that people who replace into games should be recognized.

I too welcome a Hall Of Bad posts(Like{Should be safe for work besides the parts that obviously aren't.} Pointless Waste of Time)
Let us Use this to teach New Players what not to do when you play Mafia(also for the lols this will inspire.)

It was in his signature he never actually posted it if that makes sense. After I commented on it one day he turned it to ***** still with the quotes. I only brought it up to point out discrepancies in infractions being handed out, and moderators not doing anything about it, because they are friends with the offending parties.

I am not asking that anything be done about it. There was quite a bit that happened at that time, including someone impersonating me on Xyres out of game blog, and only one person bothered to alert me about that. Nothing was done about that either, I can sadly continue to go on with other things.

One thing though that I talked to the moderator about and I am going to bring up here is the stuff that happened with Naka.

Now let me be clear. I am in no way defending him.

But here are some of the abuses of power that I noted with that situation.

Naka was accused of breaking mafia rules. Azreal said he had this and that it was an ongoing game etc, etc. That he would show us proof after the game was over. Now I haven't gone through this forum with a toothpick, but I have never seen this proof. Its bothered me that I have never seen this proof, its not that I even doubt that its true it bothers me that it was never brought forward.

The other thing though, and the thing that drove me crazy, was the massive smear campaign that was lead against him.
Let me be clear on something. We are here to play mafia nothing more nothing less, so, why do I care if someone is pretending to be a girl or a guy? I really don't. I don't care what their real name is or where the come from. So, why was this even brought up? And frankly I don't care what they have done on other web sites. If I did care then if Clock King ever shows his face on to post in here, he should be removed instantly because at one point he used to post pictures of poop on other magic websites(Which might I also point out was funny to me that he was leading the attack on someone who he was calling a troll).
This was a personal smear campaign that had no business being brought up at all.

I bring this up, for one reason and only one reason. I have brought this up with the powers that be, and simply put I am being ignored. I see no reason to be quiet on these issues.

There is a huge discrepancy in moderator powers. I take issue with in my opinion being threatened by a moderator to infract me, and then nothing coming of it when I called him out on it.

These things should not be allowed, and I want a solution or at the very least some dialogue on this.
Thanks
DV

Quote from Deaths_Vampire

It was in his signature he never actually posted it if that makes sense. After I commented on it one day he turned it to ***** still with the quotes. I only brought it up to point out discrepancies in infractions being handed out, and moderators not doing anything about it, because they are friends with the offending parties.

Do you have specific evidence that the reason moderators didn't do anything about it is because they were friends with the offending party, and not because they simply didn't see it?

Naka was accused of breaking mafia rules. Azreal said he had this and that it was an ongoing game etc, etc. That he would show us proof after the game was over. Now I haven't gone through this forum with a toothpick, but I have never seen this proof. Its bothered me that I have never seen this proof, its not that I even doubt that its true it bothers me that it was never brought forward.

Speaking in a general sense, moderators have no obligation to present proof of wrongdoing to the membership. They present such proof, if necessary, to the other mods and admins.

Quote from Archonoid

Do you have specific evidence that the reason moderators didn't do anything about it is because they were friends with the offending party, and not because they simply didn't see it?Speaking in a general sense, moderators have no obligation to present proof of wrongdoing to the membership. They present such proof, if necessary, to the other mods and admins.

First, no, but with it being very public and around for a long time, especially after he changed it to the **** I would be surprised if they hadn't seen it.

It was something to the jist of,

Loran, "Did you check the player list? Dv is on it"
Cyan "GAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY"
Loran LoL

And that was the IM quote except that it had cyans IM name. I know I quoted it somewhere I can try and find it later.

It was then changed to after I brought it up

Cyan *****************

Etc.

I am simply bringing this stuff up, because I feel as though it was ignored I also feel that people looked over it and that isn't fair.

Yes I agree with you about the wrong doing part. The proof part you are right, except for the fact that in this thread Azreal promised us that proof, because of how public they made it. The proof part is very little concern its the rest of what was done that bothers me.

Quote from Deaths_Vampire

Yes I agree with you about the wrong doing part. The proof part you are right, except for the fact that in this thread Azreal promised us that proof, because of how public they made it. The proof part is very little concern its the rest of what was done that bothers me.

Did you read this? The conversation goes on for quite a bit. There were many factors in play that resulted in Nakamura becoming blacklisted.

Some of the explicit Mafia rules Nakamura broke:
PM quoting, resulting in modkill (Doha)
Discussing forbidden topics as per game mechanics, resulting in modkill (Ogre)
PMing a living player after dying in a game, resulting in that player (VibeBox) requesting replacement (The Stand)

There were apparently other offenses that contributed to Azrael's decision, but the above were more than enough to justify a blacklist. The OoG issues were icing on the cake that painted a picture of deceit and antisocial behavior that did not inspire confidence in his reforming himself. Given enough time, it is not unlikely that he would be allowed to appeal his blacklist in order to try to rebuild his reputation, but it appears that his ban removed that possibility altogether. To say that Azrael made the wrong decision is to speak without understanding the full context of the situation.

Quote from Deaths_Vampire

The proof part is very little concern its the rest of what was done that bothers me.

Okay.

My point is that the evidence you've presented so far in favor of the idea of moderator power abuse is a situation where a moderator may not even have seen the problem in question, and a banned member from a year and a half ago.

It's not a particularly convincing case without significantly more backing.

Quote from Deaths_Vampire

I think the biggest problem with the mafia forums is the amount of double standards that are here.
I'll use myself as an example, so that I don't speak out of turn for anyone else, but I have seen this happen with other people.

I have watched as myself was literally picked on by some players. Loran and Cyan literally thought it was fine for them to have a quote in lorans sig calling me gay or saying that playing with me was gay. Which really in my opinion only speaks volumes of the kind of person they are that they think that is an insult. But here is the point, nothing was done about it. I am sure that many people saw it, but nobody said nothing. My feelings were hurt about it at the time, and I think I said something offensive, and I got an infraction for it, while Loran got nothing for having that in his sig.
I can go on and on. Its pretty sad how much I can go on. The fact is though, that I have seen very few other people get infractions, even though when people are rude to me and I am just as rude, I get an infraction or people get upset about something I posted.
I literally had a mod in a recent game, making promises to infract me if other people reported my posts, and then when I brought it up I got an apology from another mod on his behavior. What a joke.

So here is the problem. The problem in my opinion is with the moderators. There is soooooo much grey lines here that it is quite confusing.

How is it acceptable to literally be as offensive as you can? But then when that person calls you an idiot that is a infractable offense?
To me there is no rime or reason to it. So, how is anyone supposed to know what is acceptable or not?

In the end this to me is not a player problem its a mod problem. The moderators caused this and they need to do something about it, and no I don't think any of us want Nazi Germany to be instituted, but you need to start being fair about how you deal with these things.

I can't believe you are still whining about this. What was it, 2 years ago? Maybe 3 years ago? Thanks for affirming what I already thought, baddie.

This all occurred well before the site went into 'taking ourselves way too seriously' mode and started banning slang arbitrarily, anyway.

Quote from Cyan

I can't believe you are still whining about this. What was it, 2 years ago? Maybe 3 years ago? Thanks for affirming what I already thought, baddie.

This all occurred well before the site went into 'taking ourselves way too seriously' mode and started banning slang arbitrarily, anyway.

I was more trying to discuss how we should start to look at things. I said if you read that I really didn't want any action taken.

Its not the action that I care about, its the fact that this went unnoticed and nobody bothered to intervene. The fact that you still haven't bothered to apologized for your actions still today is a testament about your character.

I still to this day think that it was you that impersonated me in Xyres game, and also got him to over react the way he did. I really wish I had kept those pms he had sent me, but I didn't. I didn't know better at the time, and I wish I had.

Quote from Archonoid

Okay.

My point is that the evidence you've presented so far in favor of the idea of moderator power abuse is a situation where a moderator may not even have seen the problem in question, and a banned member from a year and a half ago.

It's not a particularly convincing case without significantly more backing.

Its not the idea, its the smear campaign that I take issue with. As I pointed out, this was not needed. It wasn't needed. The fact that we thought it was ok, is questionable to me.

And as I pointed out if we did care about this, we would be excluding a lot of other players.

Where is the line too far? Why are we ok with some people doing this stuff and others not?

I wasn't going to say anything, but unfortunately, I was irked when I saw this:

Quote from Deaths_Vampire

There is a huge discrepancy in moderator powers. I take issue with in my opinion being threatened by a moderator to infract me, and then nothing coming of it when I called him out on it.

It's my job as a moderator to attempt to keep the civility in the thread. Threatening to infract you is not meant to intimidate you to obey, but to make the point that your are walking on thin ice, and I recommend that you tread cautiously. Also, your opinion:

Quote from Deaths_Vampire

Go back to your troll forum.

Was found insulting by at least 5-6 other members who came from the forum to play mafia.

These things should not be allowed, and I want a solution or at the very least some dialogue on this.
Thanks
DV

I would strongly advise you to take this issue to my mod desk, and the council via pm for your individual issues. Frankly, you are doing your self no favors by posting it here, in that dialect. To me, you are coming off as someone with a lot of anger, venting at anyone that moves, without reason or rationality. Whether that is the case or not, I don't know. But calm down, and trying taking this elsewhere. Heck, include one of the admins in your pms if you truly think "the powers that be" will turn a blind eye...

Quote from The Cold Monarch

I wasn't going to say anything, but unfortunately, I was irked when I saw this:



It's my job as a moderator to attempt to keep the civility in the thread. Threatening to infract you is not meant to intimidate you to obey, but to make the point that your are walking on thin ice, and I recommend that you tread cautiously. Also, your opinion:


Was found insulting by at least 5-6 other members who came from the forum to play mafia.




I would strongly advise you to take this issue to my mod desk, and the council via pm for your individual issues. Frankly, you are doing your self no favors by posting it here, in that dialect. To me, you are coming off as someone with a lot of anger, venting at anyone that moves, without reason or rationality. Whether that is the case or not, I don't know. But calm down, and trying taking this elsewhere. Heck, include one of the admins in your pms if you truly think "the powers that be" will turn a blind eye...

And then you turned around and allowed other people to say other things. One of which was a phrase that I was later infracted for using, but you didn't have an issue with that.

I'm not going to quote an ongoing game, but you basically said that I was breaking rules. Not that I was on thin ice, then you didn't infract me for anything. When I brought this up, I got an apology from another moderator on your behalf.

This is an issue.

Basically, you took issue with me, but then ignored other people doing like and similar. Its not even that I am saying that I was out of line, its that I am saying that I expect people to be treated the same.

I do not see that happening. I am bringing up past issues where this didn't happen and I am bringing up more current issues where this once again didn't happen.

Quote from Deaths_Vampire

And then you turned around and allowed other people to say other things. One of which was a phrase that I was later infracted for using, but you didn't have an issue with that.

I'm not going to quote an ongoing game, but you basically said that I was breaking rules. Not that I was on thin ice, then you didn't infract me for anything. When I brought this up, I got an apology from another moderator on your behalf.

This is an issue.

Basically, you took issue with me, but then ignored other people doing like and similar. Its not even that I am saying that I was out of line, its that I am saying that I expect people to be treated the same.

I do not see that happening. I am bringing up past issues where this didn't happen and I am bringing up more current issues where this once again didn't happen.

D_V, you should listen to TCM. He's trying to help you. Continuing to argue here isn't changing anything.

@DV: Please use PMs and/or moderator helpdesks to resolve any issue/s you may have. Thanks in advance.

To change the topic, it appears that being "thanked" does not result in any notification, so it's an ineffective alternative to "/barn." I would discourage the usage of this system within most games of Mafia, but keep the door open in case a game host wants to explore "thanking" as a game mechanic.

Quote from Iso

Addressing DRey's post: Every player that has replaced out or been modkilled is noted in the hosting thread, which what games they replaced out/got modkilled in. There's also a list of every completed game in that thread, so players are able to see how long ago that game was. We already implement that, but thank you for the suggestion.

Shiny, I didn't know that. Just add a number and rank the people and everything will be perfect.

Quote from Arnnaria

The problem is, punitive systems rarely "work".

If you want to see progress, start rewarding players for completing games. A hall of fame / reward system would work better than a punishment system.

I understand what you are saying, but in this case punitive sustem is the only way out, we cannot award prizes to the big majority that don't replace out, and the people that chronically replace out need a reality check.

Quote from Ecophagy

The thing is that we simultaneously have a replacement/commitment issue as well as a constant outcry for more games to be run. If we cut down the number of games to encourage replacement, players fall foul of random.org and complain that there aren't enough games. If we increase the number of games, replacements pretty much don't exist which will foster more modkills or even game death.

Good point, and the solution is in front of our eyes.
This thing of "we run X basics, Y specialities, Z minis..." is outdated, what we must do is to use the players contact list to fire games as demand dictates. For example there's 10 people in the basic/mini list, fire a basic/mini, when there's 18 people in the normal/speciality list, fire a speciality (roughtly 80% of players necessary to run a given game) . This way the subforum will automatically adjust to the demand of the player base, there's no need to shake things in the "summer or winter lull" or when it "feels" right. This way no game will ever stay indefinitely in the signups phase while others fill up in 24hrs.

Obviously that will make everyone actually need to use the list (and will make Iso's life harder), I know I've never put my name there because I'm always paying attention to the new games and I /in when the game interest me.

Quote from pinkys_brain

It warms my heart so to see people okay with those that bully but damn you for replacing out because you couldn't put up with the attitude, smearing remarks or out and out nasty comments that were not mafia releated.

I really hope this is not addressed to me, just in case:
a)I'm an agressive player but I don't bully players nor treat newcomers badly (at least I don't think so).
b)I know nothing about DV issue and never commented on it.
c)I don't think no one should be prohibited from replacing out, but people here are just taking mafia way too lightly. When you sign up, you assume a minimum compromise, simply put if you repeatedly replace out, you lack the maturity to play mafia.

-------

@DV I know nothing about your issue, and I say that you should pursue your beliefs, if you believe someone acted wrongly against you, report them to the authorities, if the authorities don't give a damn, search the authorities authorities and so on. That being said, I also think those things should be solved by PMs unless you can't solve then in an amicable way. BTW if you improve your tone I believe people will be more open to hear your arguments, you sound angry and that's not good.

DRey: Everyone is alphabetized for convenience on the replacement/modkill list.

Quote from Iso

DRey: Everyone is alphabetized for convenience on the replacement/modkill list.

* Artifice 101 changes his name to Zartifice

I was force replaced in CIM:Alt (inactivity), and requested replacement in Hetalia (RL issues) and Seasons (computer problem).

Just for full disclosure.

What I had in mind regarding "proof" was a description of what Naka actually did in the most recent ongoing game, which was immediately provided.

If anyone is (this seems strange to me, but regardless) interested in additional documentation regarding the final straw with Naka, you should contact TFF/Kittycupcakes and ask him about the post he reported to me. Or you can look up whatever game of TFF's was ongoing in December 2010. Or search Naka's posting history - his posts were public record.

Naka talked about one of my ongoing games he was in, and Art can attest to it influencing the outcome.

Also, Naka tried to get into my current basic under a new name claiming he was not Naka before being busted for being Naka.

EDIT

Also, this was after Naka was banned originally.

Quote from Emo_Pinata

Naka talked about one of my ongoing games he was in, and Art can attest to it influencing the outcome.

Also, Naka tried to get into my current basic under a new name claiming he was not Naka before being busted for being Naka.

EDIT

Also, this was after Naka was banned originally.

Yep. Power 9 was mentioned in Minecraft (albeit what looks like absentmindedly) by Burstinatrix.

What are we rambling on about Naka for? I've not been following the convo.

Quote from Shalako

DV is convinced that everybody is out to get him because of a Quote in a Sig like 4 years about that made fun of him and he is saying he is a martyr
like Naka.

Noooo. DV watched someone do something recently that reminded him of other things. And instead of and he decided he should say something about things that happened.

To be clear, its not that I don't believe that Naka should not have been banned. But he should not have been smeared the way he was. That is all.

I simply have a problem with some of the double standards that are sometimes present.

Anyways though please don't try and minimize what Cyan and Loran did. It wasn't fair and it was done to hurt on purpose and it succeeded to an extent. The fact that you think that it is ok says something about yourself as well sir.