You could always just label it "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here".
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Important announcement to make. This was probably the hardest decision the council has yet to make, and we're not above reconsidering it. But we've decided the forum is best off by blacklisting Nakamura.
In Annorax's game, there were a number of problematic issues. None of them were enough to support a blacklist, but they drew some attention to us due to Naka's recent placement on the blacklist.
Subsequently, an investigation by a staff member revealed that Nakamura was a banned ripper on at least one other site. Naka subsequently lied to the staff member about his identity, but some links in his sig made the truth pretty painfully apparent. It also came out that he's been routinely lying about his gender/nationality, which probably doesn't come as a huge surprise to anyone.
Naka's past activites that placed him on probation take on a new and more sinister light in view of this, and I can't say we're very optimistic that he's going to reform and see the error in his ways. I think we're going to continue to see problems if he stays.
The sticking point was that none of us recent activities, on their own, would be sufficient to support a mafia ban. So to some extent, this action is based upon his prior activity and is a preemptive measure to prevent further abuse. That's a somewhat troubling precedent, but I think an exception could stand to be made in this case.
If anyone has any major exceptions to this course of action, feel free to voice them.
Important announcement to make. This was probably the hardest decision the council has yet to make, and we're not above reconsidering it. But we've decided the forum is best off by blacklisting Nakamura.
In Annorax's game, there were a number of problematic issues. None of them were enough to support a blacklist, but they drew some attention to us due to Naka's recent placement on the blacklist.
Subsequently, an investigation by a staff member revealed that Nakamura was a banned ripper on at least one other site. Naka subsequently lied to the staff member about his identity, but some links in his sig made the truth pretty painfully apparent. It also came out that he's been routinely lying about his gender/nationality, which probably doesn't come as a huge surprise to anyone.
Naka's past activites that placed him on probation take on a new and more sinister light in view of this, and I can't say we're very optimistic that he's going to reform and see the error in his ways. I think we're going to continue to see problems if he stays.
The sticking point was that none of us recent activities, on their own, would be sufficient to support a mafia ban. So to some extent, this action is based upon his prior activity and is a preemptive measure to prevent further abuse. That's a somewhat troubling precedent, but I think an exception could stand to be made in this case.
If anyone has any major exceptions to this course of action, feel free to voice them.
I must say that I am really bothered by a preemptive ban. However, I'm not familiar with what happened in Annorax's game. Would someone care to enlighten me?
Also, I must not be familiar with the terminology: ripper?
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
I must say that I am really bothered by a preemptive ban. However, I'm not familiar with what happened in Annorax's game. Would someone care to enlighten me?
Also, I must not be familiar with the terminology: ripper?
Ripper = ripped someone off in a trading forum = received cards and didn't send his end of a trade = thief = no integrity.
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Hey all... I'm retired, not dead. Check out what I'm doing these days (and beg me to come back if you want):
Honestly, this feels like this was a hugely 'politically motivated' decision, and I'm not a fan of it.
If Nakamura is a ripper on some other site, than he shouldn't be able to trade here.
Lying about his gender/nationality? Why is that relevant at all? There are what, 5+ gimmick accounts playing the game right now? Pretending to be a new(to the site at least) player seems like a far worse crime than pretending to be a girl.
I think this is an awful, awful decision. What exactly happened in Annorax' game to prompt this?
Like Cyan said, being a confirmed ripper is enough for me to support a ban on trading for Nak, but from the games I've played with him point of view, I've seen nothing mafia ban worthy.
Really, what happened in Annorax's game?
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
Guys. Nakamura got modkilled in TWO games (Doha and Ogre for PM quoting and referencing the C&T thread multiple times, respectively) and almost ruined a third (The Stand by PMing a living player after dying).
EDIT: Not to mention whatever happened in Annorax's game, which I don't know about.
To clear up any rumors, I'LL explain the gist of the story.
Nakamura lied to me about being banned TCGPlayer hacker / ripper Kris Gray. Kris Gray was a former TCGPlayer mod who was banned for deceit, hacking the site then banning over 50 members, and trolling. When I contacted the TCGPlayer mods about Nakamura, they confirmed that Kris often used that alias while on the site.
I was first suspicious during Rax's game when "she" would try to use the language barrier whenever pressure began to mount on her. Since I frequent Pojo, I noticed that "she' had a profile on there as well. In this profile 'she' admitted to being Kris Gray and living in the US (not Japan). Nakamura / Kris / Yukichi also has several ripping complaints currently active on Pojo, some of which involve hundreds of dollars of cards.
Here's Kris blog where he admits to being Yukichi (his pojo alias) and also to being a member of the MTGS writing community (which Nakamura is a part of):
Part of my frustration at Nakamura in my most recent game of Mafia (Basic 32) came from the fact that during the game, Nakamura sent me a PM lying about her identity when I had a mountain of proof to confirm that "she" was in fact lying. She's not Japanese, not living in Japan, and not a female. If you want to see exactly why Nakamura / Kris was banned from TCGPlayer, read this:
Kris somehow hacked into the Moderator Control Panel and unbanned his Kris account. He also managed to regain Moderator powers. He then began to go on a massive banning spree, banning over 50 members that were better than him. None of the bans were justified, and he targeted members he felt were his enemies (ie. Members that didn’t believe his lies and join his fanclub). Moderators who were online at the time were quick to act, attempting to unban the affected accounts. But Kris persisted, re-banning them as fast as the Staff could unban them. Kris’ account was even re-banned but he was able to unban himself again.
I believe that Nakamura is toxic to the game, both in and out, due to PMing living players despite the rules explicitly forbidding this, and out of the game for trying to use a false persona to hide "her" dubious background as a hacker. Her modkills / bending the rules were just the tip of the iceberg.
To clear up any rumors, I'LL explain the gist of the story.
Nakamura lied to me about being banned TCGPlayer hacker / ripper Kris Gray. Kris Gray was a former TCGPlayer mod who was banned for deceit, hacking the site then banning over 50 members, and trolling. When I contacted the TCGPlayer mods about Nakamura, they confirmed that Kris often used that alias while on the site.
I was first suspicious during Rax's game when "she" would try to use the language barrier whenever pressure began to mount on her. Since I frequent Pojo, I noticed that "she' had a profile on there as well. In this profile 'she' admitted to being Kris Gray. Nakamura / Kris / Yukichi also has several ripping complaints currently active on Pojo, some of which involve hundreds of dollars of cards.
Here's Kris blog where he admits to being Yukichi (his pojo alias) and also to being a member of the MTGS writing community (which Nakamura is a part of):
Part of my frustration at Nakamura in my most recent game of Mafia (Basic 32) came from the fact that during the game, Nakamura sent me a PM lying about her identity when I had a mountain of proof to confirm that "she" was in fact lying. She's not Japanese, not living in Japan, and not a female. If you want to see exactly why Nakamura / Kris was banned from TCGPlayer, read this:
Completely fine with the blacklist. I just have one question - why isn't he being banned from MTGS completely?
At the time the Mafia Council received their information, I hadn't finished compiling all of the evidence yet. Therefore they saw most of the damning information, but not all of it. However with the confirmation of the TCGPlayer mods that Nakamura is Kris, and the most recent ripping charges against "her", I believe that a ban is in order.
Nakamura shouldn't have gotten modkilled in Syrenz game, because A)he was talking about the contracts when he thought he had already fullfilled his AWC and would be leaving the game and B)the 'don't talk about contracts' rule is complete nonsense anyway.
@AL: None of that, in any way, explains why someone would get blacklisted from mafia.
As far as I can tell from reading Annorax' game, Naka didn't do anything particularly wrong in it. All I can see is that he had some ability and targeted whom he wanted with it, instead of whom the rest of the town wanted. It is unfortunate when someone is petty/immature and acts like this, but using it to pre-emptively ban someone bad form. And besides, if being petty/immature/selfish about your own role is good reason to ban someone, then why does Seppel still play mafia?
I haven't read the Doha incident yet, so it's hard to see how flagrant that was, but the only real problem I see anyone listing here is Naka sending a player in Basic 32 a PM after he had died. While that is problematic, I"m not really sold on it being reason to blacklist someone.
I'm not saying that I like Nakamura. I don't. I'm not saying that he wouldn't have ultimately gotten blacklisted anyway. He might have. But he also might not have.
Ultimately, I feel like there are behind the scenes/details actions here that are dictating this, and that is what I want to know more about.
Like..considering the charges you're listing against Nakamura, I don't see why this isn't being handled by the MTGSalvation Staff as a banning. Just blacklisting him/her/whatever from mafia makes no sense, and feels like a 'we can't get you banned from the site, so we'll try to just remove whatever access we can' move. And I don't think that is acceptable.
Edit: I appear to have been Sarnath'ed. Repeatedly. However, most of my points still stand. If you can't get Nakamura banned from Salvation as a whole based on his/her actions(and I'm not even sure that is correct anyway. Except for ripping, someone's behavior on another site should not affect their standing on this one), then I really don't see how a mafia blacklisting magically becomes appropriate.
Well, I've been in two games that were damaged by nak's presence, one nearly ruined. Considering there were two other games that has happened in, and the fact that the "language barrier" (which was a pain by itself) was a complete fabrication seems like more than enough reason to put a stop to the obviously intentional destructive behavior.
-I complete encourage the chosen course of action.
AI's post was all that I needed to see. Trying to ruin a single game the way he did in Basic 32 should be enough to blacklist him IMO. People put a lot of effort and love into their games, and someone intentionally trying to ruin it is beyond low.
I also fully support this action. Sure it looks like previous actions are influencing here, but beyond those there are enough things he did while here to warrant a blacklist anyway.
@Cyan - To be clear, lying about nationality and gender is permitted (in the abstract), and wasn't a basis for the decision. I only mentioned it, as it puts the web of other (more sinister and problematic) deceptions in context. Its habitual for him.
So I don't want to set that precedent.
As to a site ban, I certainly would have supported it, if it were my call. It wasn't, and there's some schisms within the site staff over the appropriateness of a trade ban vs. a site ban. I think it would have been completely appropriate, in the case of a trade ripper: a real-life criminal who poses a continuing threat of harming other users. But since we don't have the power to site ban, we're doing what we can, and at least keeping him off our turf.
I would have liked to lead with AL's information, but I was asked by the staff to keep his name and info out of it. But now that it's out, I'm sure that makes the decision far more comprehensible. *nods*
As to behind the scenes action, Annorax did nominate him for the blacklist. However, the determinative factor was Am L's information, coupled with the past violations. There was definite pushback from the council on the basis that Annorax didn't have any in-game material from his game that would have raised a blacklisting issue on its own. Arim was a voice of caution, here, and Axel and I were also concerned that Annorax provide links to evidence, if he had anything besides the AL material. But after talking it out, Axel and I (and Kraj) were tenuously in favor of the decision based on AL's investigation. DYH, we still haven't heard from.
Simply put, with all deference to notions of fairness and repentance, I don't want a player with a repeated history of violations and real-world crime playing in our games. It begs for more ruined games.
It was a distasteful call and a distasteful precedent. I much prefer to keep the use of the banhammer exceedingly rare, as it has been. Power tripping banhammers for innocuous behavior like false identities and pouting b/c of your role assignment isn't the idea, either. But I liked the alternatives in this scenario even less.
If you're still on the fence after that, I can understand that. This is definitely a decision that would smack of "the ends justify the means", and create the opportunity for abuse and arbitrariness, in certain contexts. But since we're not looking at a subversion of a formal process, and because the decision was not arbitrary, or politically motivated, in this case I'm prepared to reach this far to prevent further damage. But if we never have to reach this far again, I'll be happy.
At the time the Mafia Council received their information, I hadn't finished compiling all of the evidence yet. Therefore they saw most of the damning information, but not all of it. However with the confirmation of the TCGPlayer mods that Nakamura is Kris, and the most recent ripping charges against "her", I believe that a ban is in order.
Okay, what? How about you get my confirmation? I know I'm not this person, the people have IRL problems with me, and I barely know them. I'm not Kris. I've never ripped anybody, and since you lurk Pojo, you should know that. Bringing fake information that other users on TCGplayer know is fake onto a different forum is ridiculous. I've never even personally posted on TCGplayer before.
Honestly, this feels like this was a hugely 'politically motivated' decision, and I'm not a fan of it.
If Nakamura is a ripper on some other site, than he shouldn't be able to trade here.
Lying about his gender/nationality? Why is that relevant at all? There are what, 5+ gimmick accounts playing the game right now? Pretending to be a new(to the site at least) player seems like a far worse crime than pretending to be a girl.
I think this is an awful, awful decision. What exactly happened in Annorax' game to prompt this?
Even if I was lying about nationality/gender (which I'm not, you can ask any of my friends and see my Facebook for proof, or could have met me at Nationals), there are millions of people online that fake identity FOR SAFETY. \
Per the ripper deal, I sent with DELIVERY CONFIRMATION to them, which proves enough. Ban me on trading if you want, although there's no legitimate reason to back it up, not Mafia.
To clear up any rumors, I'LL explain the gist of the story.
Nakamura lied to me about being banned TCGPlayer hacker / ripper Kris Gray. Kris Gray was a former TCGPlayer mod who was banned for deceit, hacking the site then banning over 50 members, and trolling. When I contacted the TCGPlayer mods about Nakamura, they confirmed that Kris often used that alias while on the site.
I was first suspicious during Rax's game when "she" would try to use the language barrier whenever pressure began to mount on her. Since I frequent Pojo, I noticed that "she' had a profile on there as well. In this profile 'she' admitted to being Kris Gray and living in the US (not Japan). Nakamura / Kris / Yukichi also has several ripping complaints currently active on Pojo, some of which involve hundreds of dollars of cards.
Here's Kris blog where he admits to being Yukichi (his pojo alias) and also to being a member of the MTGS writing community (which Nakamura is a part of):
Part of my frustration at Nakamura in my most recent game of Mafia (Basic 32) came from the fact that during the game, Nakamura sent me a PM lying about her identity when I had a mountain of proof to confirm that "she" was in fact lying. She's not Japanese, not living in Japan, and not a female. If you want to see exactly why Nakamura / Kris was banned from TCGPlayer, read this:
I believe that Nakamura is toxic to the game, both in and out, due to PMing living players despite the rules explicitly forbidding this, and out of the game for trying to use a false persona to hide "her" dubious background as a hacker. Her modkills / bending the rules were just the tip of the iceberg.
People have met me IRL from Pojo and contest to the second link. Marzbar and JerkJerk (who I know on Facebook) have admitted in the past to making the second link's information up.
Also, lying isn't an offense to ban for. If I don't want to give out my fully identity online, to prevent stuff that happens online, I don't have to. I haven't done anything wrong. And, again, I have never posted on TCGplayer.
AI's post was all that I needed to see. Trying to ruin a single game the way he did in Basic 32 should be enough to blacklist him IMO. People put a lot of effort and love into their games, and someone intentionally trying to ruin it is beyond low.
I also fully support this action. Sure it looks like previous actions are influencing here, but beyond those there are enough things he did while here to warrant a blacklist anyway.
What? It wasn't intentional at all. I would never intentionally try to ruina game, as I enjoy playing them, and it's a hobby of mine.
You can cut the lies. I have a PM from a TCGPlayer mod right here:
Quote from BigStinkin"Ape »
Well aside from him being a known liar about his whereabouts and identity, that eulogy is essentially Kris. That screen-name (Nakamura) rings a bell as a former account he had made after his initial ban. With any luck, if this is the same Kris, then he likely has more than one account.
I'd encourage anyone who'd like to verify this PM to contact the moderator BigStinkinApe on TCGPlayer.
I'm done talking with you Kris. The evidence is plain as day and the material that got sent to the Mafia council is far more comprehensive than what's listed on the previous page.
Okay, what? How about you get my confirmation? I know I'm not this person, the people have IRL problems with me, and I barely know them. I'm not Kris. I've never ripped anybody, and since you lurk Pojo, you should know that. Bringing fake information that other users on TCGplayer know is fake onto a different forum is ridiculous. I've never even personally posted on TCGplayer before.
How is this even relevant to Mafia?
I was going to do this in private, but since you want to push the issue here, we'll resolve it here.
That came up while I was trying to reconcile your play in my game with anything resembling a normal play style. Feigning a language barrier to avoid questions is extremely unethical, and would've resulted in me nominating you for the probation list anyway. When I discovered that this "native Japanese speaker" has posted from American IP addresses (and only American IP addresses) in flawless, non-machine-translated English, I dug a little deeper into it. Ambassador Laquatus independently brought those same concerns to me, and so I authorized his investigation.
I'm satisfied based on the evidence, including your feigning this language barrier issue on other sites, that you really are Kris Gray. That in and of itself doesn't warrant a ban, but the fake language barrier issue was why I brought this to the Council's attention so that they could decide on a blacklisting. They've given you their decision and now I'm giving you mine: You're a ripper on other sites and as such will also be banned from Market Street; we do not permit banned rippers from other sites to trade here and I don't want you to start trading here while you still have those issues on Pojo active.
You will be access mask'd out of Mafia and Market Street later today; you have about four hours until I do this. If you have a reply to make here, do it now.
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Hey all... I'm retired, not dead. Check out what I'm doing these days (and beg me to come back if you want):
You can cut the lies. I have a PM from a TCGPlayer mod right here:
I'd encourage anyone who'd like to verify this PM to contact the moderator BigStinkinApe on TCGPlayer.
I'm done talking with you Kris. The evidence is plain as day and the material that got sent to the Mafia council is far more comprehensive than what's listed on the previous page.
He has zero proof of that. There is no "Nakamura" account on TCGplayer. And, stop calling me Kris, as my name is NOT Kris. I'm heavily offended.
I was going to do this in private, but since you want to push the issue here, we'll resolve it here.
That came up while I was trying to reconcile your play in my game with anything resembling a normal play style. Feigning a language barrier to avoid questions is extremely unethical, and would've resulted in me nominating you for the probation list anyway. When I discovered that this "native Japanese speaker" has posted from American IP addresses (and only American IP addresses) in flawless, non-machine-translated English, I dug a little deeper into it. Ambassador Laquatus independently brought those same concerns to me, and so I authorized his investigation.
I'm satisfied based on the evidence, including your feigning this language barrier issue on other sites, that you really are Kris Gray. That in and of itself doesn't warrant a ban, but the fake language barrier issue was why I brought this to the Council's attention so that they could decide on a blacklisting. They've given you their decision and now I'm giving you mine: You're a ripper on other sites and as such will also be banned from Market Street; we do not permit banned rippers from other sites to trade here and I don't want you to start trading here while you still have those issues on Pojo active.
You will be access mask'd out of Mafia and Market Street later today; you have about four hours until I do this. If you have a reply to make here, do it now.
Yes, the language barrier was fake, as I know perfect English. My mother was raised in America, but as I'm Japanese, it was a perfect excuse for when I slipped about reading the game. People have lied about stuff like that before, and this is no different.
You're a ripper on other sites and as such will also be banned from Market Street/
This is a lie. I was accused of being a ripper on Pojo when I sent with D-Con, resent with D-Con, and the issue is in the process of being solved.
Eh, I may as well admit the truth. No use lying about it now.
No, I didn't hack TCGplayer. I was a Moderator there that was constantly being abused online by Marzbar. I didn't hack the website at all. I simply the powers they gave me to ban the members that were taunting and making fun of me to spite them. I'm much mature now, though, I was just annoyed then. But, yeah, there was no hacking involved. When I was banned, I created an alius so they couldn't follow me, and because my mum requires it wherever I am because she's super protective (not sure where Kris Gray came from, though, as that wasn't my original alius). No, I didn't rip anybody. That's been talked about already.
Lying and creating an alius is no reason to ban somebody.
This isn't a game thread - you can edit your posts here. Double-post Warned and merged.
I still don't see what this has to do with mafia. He might be lying scum in the real world, or he might not--I really have no idea. He might have ripped a few people out of their cards--then don't let him trade. But I see no reason he shouldn't be let to play mafia on this site for non-mafia related reasons.
Quote from Azrael »
The sticking point was that none of us recent activities, on their own, would be sufficient to support a mafia ban. So to some extent, this action is based upon his prior activity and is a preemptive measure to prevent further abuse. That's a somewhat troubling precedent, but I think an exception could stand to be made in this case.
I think this post demonstrates exactly why Nakamura should not recieve a mafia ban:
Quote from Blacklist »
A player who has been blacklisted may no longer play in any mafia games. The blacklist is reserved for players who seriously compromise the health of games. Blacklisted players can appeal to the mafia council if they wish to have their name removed from the list.
It's rather ex post facto to ban him from mafia for being a ripper. You admit, on your own, that his mafia actions are insufficient to blacklist him, yet you have decided to do so based on unrelated activities--ones for which we cannot even say for sure he is guilty.
In the end it is up to the council, but in this case, I feel the council has overstepped it's authority--you aren't moderators, and banning players for non-mafia offenses is not a power the council should have. If I were a murderer or a drug dealer in the past, I don't think any of you would be calling for my blacklist. Yet for some reason the crime of "ripping" is judged to render Nakamura unworthy of playing mafia.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
I don't know. I believe in second chances and mafia wise blacklisting may be harsh. Is there a way for probation and just limiting him to basics for awhile and then moving on to one normal? I have more of a problem with people constantly replacing out than lying about name and nationality. At least Naka was a very active player and relegating him to just basics for now so he can learn the proper way to act might be helpful.
Except Basics don't teach the proper way to act (and what's the "proper way to act" anyway?).
He can show that he is conforming to proper mafia etiquette. By playing basics he won't have the chance to mess up a game that a mod put alot of time and effort into. Plus if a mod doesn't want him in their game they option him out. Its their preference.
I am all for a probation period for basics only. Naka's fate should not be determined by an act that had nothing to do with mafia and nothing to do with this site.
What? It wasn't intentional at all. I would never intentionally try to ruina game, as I enjoy playing them, and it's a hobby of mine.
Did you read AI's post? It certainly seems that way. You should take that up with him, not me. But if what he says is true, and it certainly seems it is, then I don't see how it could be intentional.
Also, I honestly didn't rip anybody, you can check out the thread on Pojo for that.
And, I didn't lie about ethnicity (I am Japanese, but I only lived in Japan for approximately four years). The only things on here I lied about were gender. And, my name isn't actually Kris Gray, it's just an alius I've used online for a while now.
For those who are arguing that Naka's activities outside of Mafia should not be used as a basis to blacklist him, let me say that, in principle, I agree with you. My own vote was based on his Mafia behavior, and not whether he is or is not a banned ripper on another site (though, admittedly, that doesn't do him any favors).
His repeated rules violations have resulted in multiple mod-killings. In another game, he PMed a living player after he was dead in order to mislead them (a banworthy offense all by itself in my opinion). He was not banned then, but instead placed on probation. Then there was his play in Annorax's game, which also caused a great deal of disruption for no purpose that I can detect other than his own amusement.
I also strongly disapprove of lying about ones "real world" circumstances as an in game excuse of behavior, though this is not something we can normally verify or something that, in and of itself, would merit an outright ban. In Naka's case, however, it's just one more thing.
This is a social game we are playing. We all want to have fun, but there are rules and there is ettiquette. This is to try and ensure that everyone has a good experience, not just you. You have to respect your fellow players and the Mods who put in a LOT of work and often have to wait years to host a game.
Naka's play has not been healthy for the game.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
For those who are arguing that Naka's activities outside of Mafia should not be used as a basis to blacklist him, let me say that, in principle, I agree with you. My own vote was based on his Mafia behavior, and not whether he is or is not a banned ripper on another site (though, admittedly, that doesn't do him any favors).
I'm not a banned ripper (the issue was resolved today, actually). Check stuff out before you jump the wagon and agree with it.
His repeated rules violations have resulted in multiple mod-killings. In another game, he PMed a living player after he was dead in order to mislead them (a banworthy offense all by itself in my opinion). He was not banned then, but instead placed on probation. Then there was his play in Annorax's game, which also caused a great deal of disruption for no purpose that I can detect other than his own amusement
.
One of them was quoting the Role PM too closely, which even AL did recently, and another was talking about contracts that were already completed because of another player. It hasn't been because I've gone up and said, "I'm Scum, and these two players are also Scum," or something of the like. Quoting a Role PM is a minor offense.
I also strongly disapprove of lying about ones "real world" circumstances as an in game excuse of behavior, though this is not something we can normally verify or something that, in and of itself, would merit an outright ban. In Naka's case, however, it's just one more thing.
To protect one's own identity isn't a bad reason to lie about your identity. It was mostly truth, too, except for name (which I never officially disclosed) and (for this half of the year) location. Two things a lot of people on here falsify.
Naka's play has not been healthy for the game.
I would say otherwise. I'm an active poster, usually contribute well, and don't act like Poggydude does in each game (where players don't want to play games with him -- that's unhealthy for the game).
I'd like to hear more from TFF about how Nakamura disrupted the games he was in. His opinion seems like one that would be objective, and he was directly involved in one of the circumstances.
For those who are arguing that Naka's activities outside of Mafia should not be used as a basis to blacklist him, let me say that, in principle, I agree with you. My own vote was based on his Mafia behavior, and not whether he is or is not a banned ripper on another site (though, admittedly, that doesn't do him any favors).
His repeated rules violations have resulted in multiple mod-killings. In another game, he PMed a living player after he was dead in order to mislead them (a banworthy offense all by itself in my opinion). He was not banned then, but instead placed on probation. Then there was his play in Annorax's game, which also caused a great deal of disruption for no purpose that I can detect other than his own amusement.
I also strongly disapprove of lying about ones "real world" circumstances as an in game excuse of behavior, though this is not something we can normally verify or something that, in and of itself, would merit an outright ban. In Naka's case, however, it's just one more thing.
This is a social game we are playing. We all want to have fun, but there are rules and there is ettiquette. This is to try and ensure that everyone has a good experience, not just you. You have to respect your fellow players and the Mods who put in a LOT of work and often have to wait years to host a game.
Put me in the 'he's a ruiner' basket - his behaviour in Annie's game was atrocious, & like Axelrod has said, seemingly entirely for his own amusement at the other players' expense.
Put me in the 'he's a ruiner' basket - his behaviour in Annie's game was atrocious, & like Axelrod has said, seemingly entirely for his own amusement at the other players' expense.
Using that argument, Poggydude and Seppel would have been blacklisted by now.
And, it wasn't terrible the entire game, just as times. Was mostly an experiment.
Put me in the 'he's a ruiner' basket - his behaviour in Annie's game was atrocious, & like Axelrod has said, seemingly entirely for his own amusement at the other players' expense.
Does this merit blacklist? Maybe hes learning something here right now. These things won't be tolerated. To just ban him from mafia without a second chance seems to extreme.
Does this merit blacklist? Maybe hes learning something here right now. These things won't be tolerated. To just ban him from mafia without a second chance seems to extreme.
It's not like forcing Kris Gray / Yukichi / Nakamura into Basics for a few months will change his penchant for playing in the most self serving and disruptive way possible. Regardless of his shady dealings on other sites, he was PMing active players in a game despite the rules forbidding such behavior. That combined with multiple modkills and stalling due to lies about translating posts is just inexcusable.
It's not like forcing Kris Gray / Yukichi / Nakamura into Basics for a few months will change his penchant for playing in the most self serving and disruptive way possible. Aside from his shady dealings on other sites, he was PMing active players in a game despite the rules forbidding such behavior. That combined with multiple modkills and stalling due to "translating posts" is just inexcusable.
1. There weren't multiple players. It was one player, in my first game, congratulating him on his scheme. I said "nice", in essence.
2. Call me Naka. My name isn't Kris.
3. Stalling to translating posts is somehow worse than stalling due to fake outside activities? Okay.
4. My playstyle has never been disruptive or self-serving. You've played in, what, three games with me? You should know that.
Does this merit blacklist? Maybe hes learning something here right now. These things won't be tolerated. To just ban him from mafia without a second chance seems to extreme.
You know Naka, it is entirely possible to have fun on your own yet not have it at the expense of others. This is what makes Seppel an entertaining player instead of a troll. (I've never played with Poggy so I can't say anything in his case)
Archmage, you're too soft. Does it really look like he's learning right now? He just defended his actions in the post right above yours and slung mud at two other players! (it's true it's amazing how much Naka's posts here look like they were extracted right from a game)
I haven't ever "had fun at the expense of others". I experimented once with a new playstyle in Anny's Mafia, but it was an attempt to lure out other people/bait them. Sorry if you/other players misinterpreted differently. I think that players who have played in my other games would quickly agree that I'm an active posted that contributes good content in Mafia.
The council is too heavily counting in my IRL actions. Which, by the way, makes zero sense.
It's not like forcing Kris Gray / Yukichi / Nakamura into Basics for a few months will change his penchant for playing in the most self serving and disruptive way possible. Regardless of his shady dealings on other sites, he was PMing active players in a game despite the rules forbidding such behavior. That combined with multiple modkills and stalling due to lies about translating posts is just inexcusable.
Well its easy. If his stance doesn't change he gets banned, simple. Everythings out in the open now. He can't hid behind any of it.
Have these "chances" been brought to his attention? Like "hey smarting up or else" or has it all been looped together with his other outside mafia dealings and brought forth here?
This has all come to a head. Hes on the verge of getting banned. He has to play the game the way its meant to be played and abide by the rules or its over.
Have these "chances" been brought to his attention? Like "hey smarting up or else" or has it all been looped together with his other outside mafia dealings and brought forth here?
This has all come to a head. Hes on the verge of getting banned. He has to play the game the way its meant to be played and abide by the rules or its over.
No, I've only been mod-killed. I never even found out that I was on probation until I randomly checked out the Council Thread one day when I was bored.
Your play in Annie's game was definitely at the expense of the other players.
I don't want to comment too much on this ongoing game, but if your on the fence about this, read the day he was lynched. Ask yourselves how anything he did was conductive to his alignment. Then look at his modkills. I've already been avoiding signing up in games he is is because just READING Naka in Doha was painful.
I don't want to comment too much on this ongoing game, but if your on the fence about this, read the day he was lynched. Ask yourselves how anything he did was conductive to his alignment. Then look at his modkills. I've already been avoiding signing up in games he is is because just READING Naka in Doha was painful.
The only reasonable answer to this question is "hell no, it's not too corny". William Shatner supports this game.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
In Annorax's game, there were a number of problematic issues. None of them were enough to support a blacklist, but they drew some attention to us due to Naka's recent placement on the blacklist.
Subsequently, an investigation by a staff member revealed that Nakamura was a banned ripper on at least one other site. Naka subsequently lied to the staff member about his identity, but some links in his sig made the truth pretty painfully apparent. It also came out that he's been routinely lying about his gender/nationality, which probably doesn't come as a huge surprise to anyone.
Naka's past activites that placed him on probation take on a new and more sinister light in view of this, and I can't say we're very optimistic that he's going to reform and see the error in his ways. I think we're going to continue to see problems if he stays.
The sticking point was that none of us recent activities, on their own, would be sufficient to support a mafia ban. So to some extent, this action is based upon his prior activity and is a preemptive measure to prevent further abuse. That's a somewhat troubling precedent, but I think an exception could stand to be made in this case.
If anyone has any major exceptions to this course of action, feel free to voice them.
I must say that I am really bothered by a preemptive ban. However, I'm not familiar with what happened in Annorax's game. Would someone care to enlighten me?
Also, I must not be familiar with the terminology: ripper?
Ripper = ripped someone off in a trading forum = received cards and didn't send his end of a trade = thief = no integrity.
https://twitch.tv/annorax10 (classic retro speedruns & occasional MTGO/MTGA screwaround streams)
https://twitch.tv/SwiftorCasino (yes, my team and I run live dealer games for the baldman using his channel points as chips)
If Nakamura is a ripper on some other site, than he shouldn't be able to trade here.
Lying about his gender/nationality? Why is that relevant at all? There are what, 5+ gimmick accounts playing the game right now? Pretending to be a new(to the site at least) player seems like a far worse crime than pretending to be a girl.
I think this is an awful, awful decision. What exactly happened in Annorax' game to prompt this?
Really, what happened in Annorax's game?
EDIT: Not to mention whatever happened in Annorax's game, which I don't know about.
I am totally OK with this decision.
Nakamura lied to me about being banned TCGPlayer hacker / ripper Kris Gray. Kris Gray was a former TCGPlayer mod who was banned for deceit, hacking the site then banning over 50 members, and trolling. When I contacted the TCGPlayer mods about Nakamura, they confirmed that Kris often used that alias while on the site.
I was first suspicious during Rax's game when "she" would try to use the language barrier whenever pressure began to mount on her. Since I frequent Pojo, I noticed that "she' had a profile on there as well. In this profile 'she' admitted to being Kris Gray and living in the US (not Japan). Nakamura / Kris / Yukichi also has several ripping complaints currently active on Pojo, some of which involve hundreds of dollars of cards.
Here's Kris blog where he admits to being Yukichi (his pojo alias) and also to being a member of the MTGS writing community (which Nakamura is a part of):
http://www.blogger.com/profile/07296190549141039129
Here's his ripping thread on Pojo. Notice how "Yukichi" has an identical profile to Nakamura.
http://www.pojo.biz/board/showthread.php?t=898708
Part of my frustration at Nakamura in my most recent game of Mafia (Basic 32) came from the fact that during the game, Nakamura sent me a PM lying about her identity when I had a mountain of proof to confirm that "she" was in fact lying. She's not Japanese, not living in Japan, and not a female. If you want to see exactly why Nakamura / Kris was banned from TCGPlayer, read this:
http://forum.tcgplayer.com/showthread.php?t=230140
I believe that Nakamura is toxic to the game, both in and out, due to PMing living players despite the rules explicitly forbidding this, and out of the game for trying to use a false persona to hide "her" dubious background as a hacker. Her modkills / bending the rules were just the tip of the iceberg.
See, with the full story, I'm wary of the decision, but not against it. Thank you, AL.
EDIT: And I just read the second link. Not nearly as wary any more, either.
I was wondering this myself. It would neatly solve the problem of "preemptive blacklisting" if Nakamura can't post on MTGS period.
At the time the Mafia Council received their information, I hadn't finished compiling all of the evidence yet. Therefore they saw most of the damning information, but not all of it. However with the confirmation of the TCGPlayer mods that Nakamura is Kris, and the most recent ripping charges against "her", I believe that a ban is in order.
@AL: None of that, in any way, explains why someone would get blacklisted from mafia.
As far as I can tell from reading Annorax' game, Naka didn't do anything particularly wrong in it. All I can see is that he had some ability and targeted whom he wanted with it, instead of whom the rest of the town wanted. It is unfortunate when someone is petty/immature and acts like this, but using it to pre-emptively ban someone bad form. And besides, if being petty/immature/selfish about your own role is good reason to ban someone, then why does Seppel still play mafia?
I haven't read the Doha incident yet, so it's hard to see how flagrant that was, but the only real problem I see anyone listing here is Naka sending a player in Basic 32 a PM after he had died. While that is problematic, I"m not really sold on it being reason to blacklist someone.
I'm not saying that I like Nakamura. I don't. I'm not saying that he wouldn't have ultimately gotten blacklisted anyway. He might have. But he also might not have.
Ultimately, I feel like there are behind the scenes/details actions here that are dictating this, and that is what I want to know more about.
Like..considering the charges you're listing against Nakamura, I don't see why this isn't being handled by the MTGSalvation Staff as a banning. Just blacklisting him/her/whatever from mafia makes no sense, and feels like a 'we can't get you banned from the site, so we'll try to just remove whatever access we can' move. And I don't think that is acceptable.
Edit: I appear to have been Sarnath'ed. Repeatedly. However, most of my points still stand. If you can't get Nakamura banned from Salvation as a whole based on his/her actions(and I'm not even sure that is correct anyway. Except for ripping, someone's behavior on another site should not affect their standing on this one), then I really don't see how a mafia blacklisting magically becomes appropriate.
-I complete encourage the chosen course of action.
I also fully support this action. Sure it looks like previous actions are influencing here, but beyond those there are enough things he did while here to warrant a blacklist anyway.
So I don't want to set that precedent.
As to a site ban, I certainly would have supported it, if it were my call. It wasn't, and there's some schisms within the site staff over the appropriateness of a trade ban vs. a site ban. I think it would have been completely appropriate, in the case of a trade ripper: a real-life criminal who poses a continuing threat of harming other users. But since we don't have the power to site ban, we're doing what we can, and at least keeping him off our turf.
I would have liked to lead with AL's information, but I was asked by the staff to keep his name and info out of it. But now that it's out, I'm sure that makes the decision far more comprehensible. *nods*
As to behind the scenes action, Annorax did nominate him for the blacklist. However, the determinative factor was Am L's information, coupled with the past violations. There was definite pushback from the council on the basis that Annorax didn't have any in-game material from his game that would have raised a blacklisting issue on its own. Arim was a voice of caution, here, and Axel and I were also concerned that Annorax provide links to evidence, if he had anything besides the AL material. But after talking it out, Axel and I (and Kraj) were tenuously in favor of the decision based on AL's investigation. DYH, we still haven't heard from.
Simply put, with all deference to notions of fairness and repentance, I don't want a player with a repeated history of violations and real-world crime playing in our games. It begs for more ruined games.
It was a distasteful call and a distasteful precedent. I much prefer to keep the use of the banhammer exceedingly rare, as it has been. Power tripping banhammers for innocuous behavior like false identities and pouting b/c of your role assignment isn't the idea, either. But I liked the alternatives in this scenario even less.
If you're still on the fence after that, I can understand that. This is definitely a decision that would smack of "the ends justify the means", and create the opportunity for abuse and arbitrariness, in certain contexts. But since we're not looking at a subversion of a formal process, and because the decision was not arbitrary, or politically motivated, in this case I'm prepared to reach this far to prevent further damage. But if we never have to reach this far again, I'll be happy.
Okay, what? How about you get my confirmation? I know I'm not this person, the people have IRL problems with me, and I barely know them. I'm not Kris. I've never ripped anybody, and since you lurk Pojo, you should know that. Bringing fake information that other users on TCGplayer know is fake onto a different forum is ridiculous. I've never even personally posted on TCGplayer before.
How is this even relevant to Mafia?
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Even if I was lying about nationality/gender (which I'm not, you can ask any of my friends and see my Facebook for proof, or could have met me at Nationals), there are millions of people online that fake identity FOR SAFETY. \
Per the ripper deal, I sent with DELIVERY CONFIRMATION to them, which proves enough. Ban me on trading if you want, although there's no legitimate reason to back it up, not Mafia.
People have met me IRL from Pojo and contest to the second link. Marzbar and JerkJerk (who I know on Facebook) have admitted in the past to making the second link's information up.
Also, lying isn't an offense to ban for. If I don't want to give out my fully identity online, to prevent stuff that happens online, I don't have to. I haven't done anything wrong. And, again, I have never posted on TCGplayer.
What? It wasn't intentional at all. I would never intentionally try to ruina game, as I enjoy playing them, and it's a hobby of mine.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
I'd encourage anyone who'd like to verify this PM to contact the moderator BigStinkinApe on TCGPlayer.
I'm done talking with you Kris. The evidence is plain as day and the material that got sent to the Mafia council is far more comprehensive than what's listed on the previous page.
I was going to do this in private, but since you want to push the issue here, we'll resolve it here.
That came up while I was trying to reconcile your play in my game with anything resembling a normal play style. Feigning a language barrier to avoid questions is extremely unethical, and would've resulted in me nominating you for the probation list anyway. When I discovered that this "native Japanese speaker" has posted from American IP addresses (and only American IP addresses) in flawless, non-machine-translated English, I dug a little deeper into it. Ambassador Laquatus independently brought those same concerns to me, and so I authorized his investigation.
I'm satisfied based on the evidence, including your feigning this language barrier issue on other sites, that you really are Kris Gray. That in and of itself doesn't warrant a ban, but the fake language barrier issue was why I brought this to the Council's attention so that they could decide on a blacklisting. They've given you their decision and now I'm giving you mine: You're a ripper on other sites and as such will also be banned from Market Street; we do not permit banned rippers from other sites to trade here and I don't want you to start trading here while you still have those issues on Pojo active.
You will be access mask'd out of Mafia and Market Street later today; you have about four hours until I do this. If you have a reply to make here, do it now.
https://twitch.tv/annorax10 (classic retro speedruns & occasional MTGO/MTGA screwaround streams)
https://twitch.tv/SwiftorCasino (yes, my team and I run live dealer games for the baldman using his channel points as chips)
He has zero proof of that. There is no "Nakamura" account on TCGplayer. And, stop calling me Kris, as my name is NOT Kris. I'm heavily offended.
Yes, the language barrier was fake, as I know perfect English. My mother was raised in America, but as I'm Japanese, it was a perfect excuse for when I slipped about reading the game. People have lied about stuff like that before, and this is no different.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
This is a lie. I was accused of being a ripper on Pojo when I sent with D-Con, resent with D-Con, and the issue is in the process of being solved.
Eh, I may as well admit the truth. No use lying about it now.
No, I didn't hack TCGplayer. I was a Moderator there that was constantly being abused online by Marzbar. I didn't hack the website at all. I simply the powers they gave me to ban the members that were taunting and making fun of me to spite them. I'm much mature now, though, I was just annoyed then. But, yeah, there was no hacking involved. When I was banned, I created an alius so they couldn't follow me, and because my mum requires it wherever I am because she's super protective (not sure where Kris Gray came from, though, as that wasn't my original alius). No, I didn't rip anybody. That's been talked about already.
Lying and creating an alius is no reason to ban somebody.
This isn't a game thread - you can edit your posts here. Double-post Warned and merged.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
I think this post demonstrates exactly why Nakamura should not recieve a mafia ban:
It's rather ex post facto to ban him from mafia for being a ripper. You admit, on your own, that his mafia actions are insufficient to blacklist him, yet you have decided to do so based on unrelated activities--ones for which we cannot even say for sure he is guilty.
In the end it is up to the council, but in this case, I feel the council has overstepped it's authority--you aren't moderators, and banning players for non-mafia offenses is not a power the council should have. If I were a murderer or a drug dealer in the past, I don't think any of you would be calling for my blacklist. Yet for some reason the crime of "ripping" is judged to render Nakamura unworthy of playing mafia.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
He can show that he is conforming to proper mafia etiquette. By playing basics he won't have the chance to mess up a game that a mod put alot of time and effort into. Plus if a mod doesn't want him in their game they option him out. Its their preference.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Did you read AI's post? It certainly seems that way. You should take that up with him, not me. But if what he says is true, and it certainly seems it is, then I don't see how it could be intentional.
And, I didn't lie about ethnicity (I am Japanese, but I only lived in Japan for approximately four years). The only things on here I lied about were gender. And, my name isn't actually Kris Gray, it's just an alius I've used online for a while now.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
His repeated rules violations have resulted in multiple mod-killings. In another game, he PMed a living player after he was dead in order to mislead them (a banworthy offense all by itself in my opinion). He was not banned then, but instead placed on probation. Then there was his play in Annorax's game, which also caused a great deal of disruption for no purpose that I can detect other than his own amusement.
I also strongly disapprove of lying about ones "real world" circumstances as an in game excuse of behavior, though this is not something we can normally verify or something that, in and of itself, would merit an outright ban. In Naka's case, however, it's just one more thing.
This is a social game we are playing. We all want to have fun, but there are rules and there is ettiquette. This is to try and ensure that everyone has a good experience, not just you. You have to respect your fellow players and the Mods who put in a LOT of work and often have to wait years to host a game.
Naka's play has not been healthy for the game.
I'm not a banned ripper (the issue was resolved today, actually). Check stuff out before you jump the wagon and agree with it.
.
One of them was quoting the Role PM too closely, which even AL did recently, and another was talking about contracts that were already completed because of another player. It hasn't been because I've gone up and said, "I'm Scum, and these two players are also Scum," or something of the like. Quoting a Role PM is a minor offense.
To protect one's own identity isn't a bad reason to lie about your identity. It was mostly truth, too, except for name (which I never officially disclosed) and (for this half of the year) location. Two things a lot of people on here falsify.
I would say otherwise. I'm an active poster, usually contribute well, and don't act like Poggydude does in each game (where players don't want to play games with him -- that's unhealthy for the game).
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
No.
Preach it.
It was so artistically done!
/Thrawn
Jokes aside, I agree 100% with Axelrod's view of this.
Using that argument, Poggydude and Seppel would have been blacklisted by now.
And, it wasn't terrible the entire game, just as times. Was mostly an experiment.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Does this merit blacklist? Maybe hes learning something here right now. These things won't be tolerated. To just ban him from mafia without a second chance seems to extreme.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
It's not like forcing Kris Gray / Yukichi / Nakamura into Basics for a few months will change his penchant for playing in the most self serving and disruptive way possible. Regardless of his shady dealings on other sites, he was PMing active players in a game despite the rules forbidding such behavior. That combined with multiple modkills and stalling due to lies about translating posts is just inexcusable.
1. There weren't multiple players. It was one player, in my first game, congratulating him on his scheme. I said "nice", in essence.
2. Call me Naka. My name isn't Kris.
3. Stalling to translating posts is somehow worse than stalling due to fake outside activities? Okay.
4. My playstyle has never been disruptive or self-serving. You've played in, what, three games with me? You should know that.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
You mean 'without a fourth chance', right?
I haven't ever "had fun at the expense of others". I experimented once with a new playstyle in Anny's Mafia, but it was an attempt to lure out other people/bait them. Sorry if you/other players misinterpreted differently. I think that players who have played in my other games would quickly agree that I'm an active posted that contributes good content in Mafia.
The council is too heavily counting in my IRL actions. Which, by the way, makes zero sense.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Well its easy. If his stance doesn't change he gets banned, simple. Everythings out in the open now. He can't hid behind any of it.
I've seen plenty of mod kills by others.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Have these "chances" been brought to his attention? Like "hey smarting up or else" or has it all been looped together with his other outside mafia dealings and brought forth here?
This has all come to a head. Hes on the verge of getting banned. He has to play the game the way its meant to be played and abide by the rules or its over.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
No, I've only been mod-killed. I never even found out that I was on probation until I randomly checked out the Council Thread one day when I was bored.
That's an opinion. If it had worked, it would have helped the Town tremendously.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
I don't want to comment too much on this ongoing game, but if your on the fence about this, read the day he was lynched. Ask yourselves how anything he did was conductive to his alignment. Then look at his modkills. I've already been avoiding signing up in games he is is because just READING Naka in Doha was painful.
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
please refrain from comparing yourself to me in this discourse. I do not want to be brought into this mess so please don't try to.
Doha was tied for my first game.
I had no experience in Mafia at that point.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1