Probably the next player after Seppel would be Burboy, actually. I think Grak's lost his edge. Both Rider and Grak are still awesome analysts of course, and you're up there too, but there's a few very rare people who are simply born with a supernatural BS sensor, that pure smarts struggles to match.
@Manders
Okay, you have a null read on AI at this point.
Back in time for a moment. I don't understand why you FOS'd AI here. Explain?
Because he was also after Syrenz for the same stuff. Atm, I can't remember if AI still feels that way or not because he hasn't posted for awhile.
Also, I'd like a current town/scum list from you along with reasons.
Sure, but it's not necessary to specify with reasons. After all, it's not really a list if you don't give reasons. It's just empty words.
Scum Zindabad: horrible case on Syrenz Cyan: horrible case on Syrenz
Leaning scum AsianInvasion: Horrible case on Syrenz, but needs to post more so I can decide for sure as he's just barning it.
Neutral/No Read Ged: First time playing with him and he hasn't really provided a whole lot, but I gather this is normal for him, so I just don't know. TFF: Seems to be playing his town game, but he has not posted near enough for me to know yet. MMoD: Needs to post more. Arcadic: kpaca said he's scum, but didn't elaborate as to why, so I don't know if I agree with him or not. Arcadic needs to post more. vezokpiraka: Needs to post more, but there's no guarantee I'd be able to read him if he posted as much as I do. kpaca: As stated before, kpaca is incredibly hard for me to read. Maybe after some more posts, I'll get a feeling off of him. Skander: Seems to be playing his town game, but as you can see in his sig, I'm not very good at reading him, so he's neutral for now. Azrael: Seems to be town, but it is entirely too early for me to tell for sure.
Is he in this game? gigas1: POST MORE Jobie: POST MORE shadowfuryix: POST MORE
Awesome Emo_Pinata: hasn't done anything since he replaced in Seppel: hasn't done much since he replaced in MandersHex: Obv awesome
Leaning Town Anaklusmos: Gut read, but he'll show his true colors eventually if I'm wrong on this. Pale Mage: Asking good questions, scumhunting, not lurking like he did in Highlander. Syrenz: Defending himself (as that's all he's been able to do so far) in what I feel is a town manner. atlseal: Playing like the town atlseal I know and love, i.e. asking good questions, probing where necessary, overall scumhunting.
So you're only 'leaning town' on Syrenz, but have decided that Zindabad and I are both scum based on our attacks on him. This is radically inconsistent.
Either A)MH knows that Syrenz is town, or B)knows that he isn't. What she doesn't know is how to justify her behavior regarding him, without implicating herself.
So you're only 'leaning town' on Syrenz, but have decided that Zindabad and I are both scum based on our attacks on him. This is radically inconsistent.
Either A)MH knows that Syrenz is town, or B)knows that he isn't. What she doesn't know is how to justify her behavior regarding him, without implicating herself.
Unvote, Vote MH
Wrong. All that means is that I am more willing to call someone scum than I am town.
When the current games are over, I want you to re-think how well you think you can read me, Cyan.
The problem is your willingness to declare TWO people scum over something that you aren't actually that sure about. This is incredibly inconsistent on a logical basis. Either A)you think that all three of myself, Zindabad, and Syrenz are scum(and that Zindabad and I are just bussing Syrenz) or B)you think that Syrenz is town and we're just trying to steamroll him.
You cannot be 'sure' that Zindabad nor myself are scum without having more confidence in your read against Syrenz. This is an insincere stance on your part, and it is vastly more likely that you are working with inside knowledge. Meaning that you're scum.
So you're only 'leaning town' on Syrenz, but have decided that Zindabad and I are both scum based on our attacks on him. This is radically inconsistent.
Either A)MH knows that Syrenz is town, or B)knows that he isn't. What she doesn't know is how to justify her behavior regarding him, without implicating herself.
Unvote, Vote MH
Oh please. Manders has exactly ONE person listed as town.
She put Syrenz in her most strongly town category - and you're accusing her of inconsistency?!?
She still classified her read on him as 'leaning town'. The idea that someone would call out 2 people as scum because of their attack(s) on someone that you are only 'leaning town' on just doesn't make sense to me.
Nevermind that my point on Syrenz was never bad, nor was Zindabad's follow up to it. I am willing to accept that MH disagrees with it. I was willing to accept that she thought it was scummy(even though it's not). I am not willing to accept that she is convinced that I am scum because of it, but is apparently not at all sure that Syrenz is actually town. For MH attitude to make any sense her, she should have at least classified Syrenz as more town than the rest of the people in that list. Her thought pattern here does not track logically.
I don't really like how Az approached MH, as it is a method that is both ineffective at catching her as scum, and effective at making her look bad as town. However, if they've only played together twice, Az might not be aware of that and could actually think that talking her in circles there was revealing some sort of inconsistency. kpaca's meta-argument on Az seems like he genuinely believes it, and he might be right, but it's not quite strong enough for me alone.
Therefore, I'm neutral (leaning slightly scum) on Az and still reading MH as town as well as kpaca now.
Cyan: Still not getting a strong read on you here. Would you mind going back and answering this?
PPE: And I don't like the "logic" used in Cyan's last post. dC is the only person anyone should have as definitely Town at this point.
She still classified her read on him as 'leaning town'. The idea that someone would call out 2 people as scum because of their attack(s) on someone that you are only 'leaning town' on just doesn't make sense to me.
Nevermind that my point on Syrenz was never bad, nor was Zindabad's follow up to it. I am willing to accept that MH disagrees with it. I was willing to accept that she thought it was scummy(even though it's not). I am not willing to accept that she is convinced that I am scum because of it, but is apparently not at all sure that Syrenz is actually town. For MH attitude to make any sense her, she should have at least classified Syrenz as more town than the rest of the people in that list. Her thought pattern here does not track logically.
Only? It's 360 posts, day one, and it's her strongest classification of townie, short of confirmed! There's no inconsistency here - you're jumping on this as a bandwagon vote, and the language you're using is far more harsh than your analysis deserves.
Granted, "he's attacking someone who I think is town, therefore he is scum" is a fairly terrible argument, and another logic-like point that could be brought against MH, but it's not an inconsistent argument.
I don't really like how Az approached MH, as it is a method that is both ineffective at catching her as scum, and effective at making her look bad as town. However, if they've only played together twice, Az might not be aware of that and could actually think that talking her in circles there was revealing some sort of inconsistency. kpaca's meta-argument on Az seems like he genuinely believes it, and he might be right, but it's not quite strong enough for me alone.
Therefore, I'm neutral (leaning slightly scum) on Az and still reading MH as town as well as kpaca now.
I do tend to do this thing where I try to make the people I'm attacking look bad...
I find it's rather effective for the town, on balance.
Quote from TFF »
Cyan: Still not getting a strong read on you here. Would you mind going back and answering this?
PPE: And I don't like the "logic" used in Cyan's last post. dC is the only person anyone should have as definitely Town at this point.
You should come vote for Cyan with me. All the cool kids are doing it.
'Leaning Town' is not a good enough classification for someone that you're willing to call 2 people scum for attacking. Period. That's all that I'm trying to say, and no one is going to change my mind about it. It IS inconsistent.
She has Syrenz in the same classification as she has someone town based on a 'gut read'. This is ridiculous. Like I said. She knows Syrenz alignment, one way or another.
'Leaning Town' is not a good enough classification for someone that you're willing to call 2 people scum for attacking. Period. That's all that I'm trying to say, and no one is going to change my mind about it. It IS inconsistent.
She has Syrenz in the same classification as she has someone town based on a 'gut read'. This is ridiculous. Like I said. She knows Syrenz alignment, one way or another.
I think Cyan is spot-on right here.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
'Leaning Town' is not a good enough classification for someone that you're willing to call 2 people scum for attacking. Period. That's all that I'm trying to say, and no one is going to change my mind about it. It IS inconsistent.
She has Syrenz in the same classification as she has someone town based on a 'gut read'. This is ridiculous. Like I said. She knows Syrenz alignment, one way or another.
*thinking frown*
I think you're putting far too much emphasis on the fact that she labelled it "leaning town". There's no logical inconsistency in using a leaning town read, to draw working conclusions of some kind. It's simply unwise.
Kind of like assuming that someone "must" have inside knowledge because she uses shaky logic, and then using that to justify a very strongly worded attack on that person.
I may very well boomerang back to my MH vote, but I'm not satisfied with Cyan either. He's overplaying his hand, at an opportune time.
Granted, "he's attacking someone who I think is town, therefore he is scum" is a fairly terrible argument, and another logic-like point that could be brought against MH
MH's argument is definitely "he's attacking someone who I think is town,in a poor and scummy fashion, therefore he is scum," so it's not as bad as you're making it sound here. -But anyway, Cyan conceded that he could see MH viewing him as scum based on it, and that his only issue is with her read of Syrenz. -It's an odd stance to have; it could be that he is trying very hard to not make the vote look like blatant OMGUS.
'Leaning Town' is not a good enough classification for someone that you're willing to call 2 people scum for attacking. Period. That's all that I'm trying to say, and no one is going to change my mind about it. It IS inconsistent.
I disagree strongly with both you and atlseal here. Sticking him in the confirmed town pile is a bit premature until we have at least 1 of you as known scum. Even if we had you both of you dead in red, I think "probably town" is still the highest I'd place him.
MH's argument is definitely "he's attacking someone who I think is town,in a poor and scummy fashion, therefore he is scum," so it's not as bad as you're making it sound here. -But anyway, Cyan conceded that he could see MH viewing him as scum based on it, and that his only issue is with her read of Syrenz. -It's an odd stance to have; it could be that he is trying very hard to not make the vote look like blatant OMGUS.
If that's her stance, then Cyan is also misrepping her a bit, by way of a highly pertinent omission.
It doesn't bother me that she used a leaning town read in general. She applied the same thing to 3 other people. I don't have a problem with that.
I have a problem with the mindset of a person that is convinced that 2 people are scum based on their attack on someone that..you're not even sure is scum. It just makes no sense. I just find it more likely that she definitively knows Syrenz' alignment, and is trying to play both sides of the fence.
@TFF: I'm not saying that she should call him 'confirmed town'. Obviously he's not, and that would be grossly obvious regardless of any other factors. I'm saying that her attitude toward myself and Zindabad doesn't make sense if she doesn't have a stronger read on Syrenz than just 'leaning' town.
Maybe I'm just really stuck on the word 'leaning'. But I think it is a worthwhile sticking point.
I was already wary of MH. I feel that her earlier answers to Azrael really don't match up with what she has said thus far in the game. I didn't say anything at the time, because it is very possible that she was just reacting poorly under pressure from a formidable player.
But this latest bit is more than enough for me to feel justified moving my vote to her. There are no logical excuses for this kind of inconsistency.
Pre-post edit:
What 'highly pertinent omission'? MH has been defending Syrenz/calling myself and Zindabad scum for attacking him all game. Now she comes along and says she is only 'leaning town' on him. If she is not sure(or relatively so) that he is town, then how can she be as sure as she puts forth that I am scum? Her only stated reason is my attack on Syrenz.
I'm saying that her attitude toward myself and Zindabad doesn't make sense if she doesn't have a stronger read on Syrenz than just 'leaning' town.
Her attitude is based on how she perceived your attacks. -I'm saying that it'd be silly for her to have a stronger read on Syrenz until she knows whether she is right or wrong about the two of you.
Scum Zindabad: horrible case on Syrenz Cyan: horrible case on Syrenz
Leaning Town Syrenz: Defending himself (as that's all he's been able to do so far) in what I feel is a town manner.
She says right there, "Defending himself in what I feel is a town manner."
I'd have to see the Zinda/Cyan attack on Syrenz to make a firmer conclusion, but Manders's assessment appears to be consistent. Cyan is blowing this out of proportion for some reason.
I'm not sure how you're arriving at Syrenz being more scummy than Manders. Your accusation is that he's coming off defensive, that he's been focused on his attackers and not the rest of the game.
I stand corrected. I did a quick re-skim and saw he did engage in the Shadowfury wagon as a pass. However, he still hasn't commented much at all on newer developments, which feels defensive as hell.
This Was his last post in the thread. Manders had already scummed up the thread, Az had come out of his PR shell and zero lines of text directed at anyone not attacking him. I also don't like that the only words Syrenz has directed at anyone not attacking him revolve around the Shadowfuryxz wagon.
mmod and zindabad are squarely town from what I see.
This is the most wrongerest thing I have heard all game. I'm guessing you really haven't read like, anything, he has said.
TFF seems to be regarding Az's vote on him. I too did not think that you had any intention of voting Az, and think you are lying at this point. Kind of want to see more pressure on him.
If I had to pick an alignment for MMoD right now, it would be town. Maybe I'm just won over by the fact that he has twice as many posts at this point in the game as he usually was.
Besides, his(and Jobies, and Geds) justification for voting shadowfury was entirely valid. Ultimately, I think that shadow's post was more newb, less scum(I've gotten burned on this one enough times now to actually be wary); but if he died somehow and flipped scum it wouldn't be a surprise. It just feels like one of those wagons where you could lynch the person based on being new, but whether or not they actually flip scum would be a toss-up.
I really don't think that you have anything on MMoD, Anak.
As for TFF. I am extremely skeptical that he was considering voting him with that 'Hmm' line. I read that entire exchange, on his part, as completely opposite of the way he is trying to describe it. I smell a really bad initial reaction, and a lie to try to cover that up. Unvote, Vote TFF
@Asian Invasion of the Body Snatchers So, like you answered other stuff I asked you but failed to provide me with the "multiple people who expressed suspicion of Arcadic". Why? Rectify this, please. Names and posts (and no dressing on my salad).
Due to the joking/contentless fluff while attempting to seem relevant posting of Syrenz (who is savvy, but not as scum yet) to scum. Arcadic is also obviously scum. I'll be able to tell you if my third scum suspect Az is probably by day three.
Zindabad and Pale Mage are town. Jury is out on Cyan.
I'd say it's decently sized. I mean, it was big enough to become current fore-runner of discussion. Maybe I'm just enlarging it because of that.
Well, no, it is going to happen. Not the references to past games part - I don't know where you got that - but the rest of it is going to happen. It's just a matter of whether you're going to like it. I've got a playstyle that works for me, and I don't see much a reason to give that up. If you don't like that, then you can AezWolg me before I put my Cunning Plan (TM) into action and make like loran in HP by stealing a game I have no business winning.
[/trolling]
Anyone who's questioning dC's alignment is dumb. No normal game has a mod confirmed townie with an alignment other than town.
I still don't like the arguments against Syrenz.
Agree with Kpaca about Arcadic.
This is the scummiest thing I've seen in the game so far (probably because I'm forgetting something):
I think he was role-playing as the Iron Chef in Doha. I had forgotten about that (unsurprising, after all the Traitor shenanigans). Moving right along...
Name, preferably. If we wanted to take it a step further (although it seems a bit early to be doing this) we could discuss if and how our characters are related to one another in the story. Maybe another Day.
Other options include gender or whether your role PM references Vincent/the Red Faction in general, and if so, if it's in a positive or negative light. Any other ideas?
Why, did you hear that something happened to him?
atlseal reminds me of myself. I don't think I want to vote him.
In the meantime, multiple people have expressed suspicion of Arcadic, who seems to be disengaged from the conversation while supporting major wagons, but no one has voted him. Let's rectify that.
Unvote Vote Arcadic
(Plus, you called him scum in the RVS, but I didn't count that.)
A combination of the fact that I'm probably getting vigged tonight and the high pace of posts in this thread has led me to slowly lose interest. At this point I am ready for a lynch (MandersHex preferably), and if I'm still alive come Day Two I'll participate more.
@Seppel: GHS Mafia is MandersHex's most recent complete game as mafia. She is not quite as scummy here as she was there, but this still doesn't feel like her town play. She also didn't interact too much with her buddies Calvin and Gigas1 in that game, but getting lynched Day One may have had something to do with that.
I remember reading that mmod lurks hardcore as town and only posts a lot as scum, which is one of the reasons I pushed for his lynch in Powerful Wizards. I was wrong there, so I've since had to reevaluate that overly simplistic tell for mmod.
Azrael is probably town, TFF not so much. I will give TFF a chance to respond to the wagon before I decide whether to move my vote.
As for TFF. I am extremely skeptical that he was considering voting him with that 'Hmm' line. I read that entire exchange, on his part, as completely opposite of the way he is trying to describe it.
Granted, "he's attacking someone who I think is town, therefore he is scum" is a fairly terrible argument, and another logic-like point that could be brought against MH
While going after Cyan, AZ takes a moment to misrep MH's stance and continue his game of word twisting to make her look as bad as possible.
MH's argument is definitely "he's attacking someone who I think is town,in a poor and scummy fashion, therefore he is scum," so it's not as bad as you're making it sound here.
If that's her stance, then Cyan is also misrepping her a bit, by way of a highly pertinent omission.
He responds by implicitly admitting he has no idea what MH's opinions are and defelects the blame for that onto Cyan, to further that push as well, accusing Cyan of the one doing the misrepping in this post:
She still classified her read on him as 'leaning town'. The idea that someone would call out 2 people as scum because of their attack(s) on someone that you are only 'leaning town' on just doesn't make sense to me.
-which, of course, doesn't contain any misrep by Cyan, but rather some poor misreading from Az.
If MH was his top scum suspect, shouldn't Az already know where she stands on things? -What kind of analysis could he possibly be doing if he is missing things like this?
And when I call him out a second time, does he respond with an explanation? -No, he just votes for no reason to again deflect attention.
So, no, my vote is not an overreaction. This bit of misrepping and deflection is more than enough to push my leaning scum read into something more solid. He's scum, no way any decent townie does half of this.
I'm siding with TFF here. I don't like the votes on him, and if anything I'd want votes on Az after that exchange. Especially since he's been attacking Cyan for being Cyan and pounced on Manders at a convenient time to move the spotlight off of Syrenz.
Finally mostly recovered. Will take some time to catch up.
In the meantime, to clarify: I'd like AI to justify his flavour of hating me and being townie.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
I guess you missed the case I briefly outlined in the same post where I voted, so I'll go over it more deeply here:
MH again gives her reasons for thinking these two are scum.
While going after Cyan, AZ takes a moment to misrep MH's stance and continue his game of word twisting to make her look as bad as possible.
I call Az out on this.
He responds by implicitly admitting he has no idea what MH's opinions are and defelects the blame for that onto Cyan, to further that push as well, accusing Cyan of the one doing the misrepping in this post:
-which, of course, doesn't contain any misrep by Cyan, but rather some poor misreading from Az.
If MH was his top scum suspect, shouldn't Az already know where she stands on things? -What kind of analysis could he possibly be doing if he is missing things like this?
And when I call him out a second time, does he respond with an explanation? -No, he just votes for no reason to again deflect attention.
So, no, my vote is not an overreaction. This bit of misrepping and deflection is more than enough to push my leaning scum read into something more solid. He's scum, no way any decent townie does half of this.
I call bull☺☺☺☺ on this entire post.
We can look past that saying "Hmm" when leading up to an action that you plan to do in your next post is a very blatant and newbish scumtell. I'd expect better from you, but then again, I've never seen you as scum.
But let's get to the meat: You selectively cut Az's post to take it completely out of context!
She still classified her read on him as 'leaning town'. The idea that someone would call out 2 people as scum because of their attack(s) on someone that you are only 'leaning town' on just doesn't make sense to me.
Nevermind that my point on Syrenz was never bad, nor was Zindabad's follow up to it. I am willing to accept that MH disagrees with it. I was willing to accept that she thought it was scummy(even though it's not). I am not willing to accept that she is convinced that I am scum because of it, but is apparently not at all sure that Syrenz is actually town. For MH attitude to make any sense her, she should have at least classified Syrenz as more town than the rest of the people in that list. Her thought pattern here does not track logically.
Granted, "he's attacking someone who I think is town, therefore he is scum" is a fairly terrible argument, and another logic-like point that could be brought against MH
Yeah, sounds like he's really jumping on Manders there, doesn't it?
Only? It's 360 posts, day one, and it's her strongest classification of townie, short of confirmed! There's no inconsistency here - you're jumping on this as a bandwagon vote, and the language you're using is far more harsh than your analysis deserves.
Granted, "he's attacking someone who I think is town, therefore he is scum" is a fairly terrible argument, and another logic-like point that could be brought against MH, but it's not an inconsistent argument.
OH REALLY! So Azrael is actually defending Manders's argument? Not attacking her like you say he is?
Yeah, sounds like he's really jumping on Manders there, doesn't it?
Let's look at the full picture:
OH REALLY! So Azrael is actually defending Manders's argument? Not attacking her like you say he is?
-because claiming that it was "another point against her" and then switching his vote back to her a few posts later certainly sounds like a defense.
I expect better from you, seppel.
-He was attacking Cyan, not defending anyone -the part I highlighted was just the mudslinging he decided to squeeze in on the side.
I'm siding with TFF here. I don't like the votes on him, and if anything I'd want votes on Az after that exchange. Especially since he's been attacking Cyan for being Cyan and pounced on Manders at a convenient time to move the spotlight off of Syrenz.
We can look past that saying "Hmm" when leading up to an action that you plan to do in your next post is a very blatant and newbish scumtell. I'd expect better from you, but then again, I've never seen you as scum.
But let's get to the meat: You selectively cut Az's post to take it completely out of context!
First, Cyan's post:
Now Azrael's reply, with your cut:
Yeah, sounds like he's really jumping on Manders there, doesn't it?
Let's look at the full picture:
OH REALLY! So Azrael is actually defending Manders's argument? Not attacking her like you say he is?
-because claiming that it was "another point against her" and then switching his vote back to her a few posts later certainly sounds like a defense.
I expect better from you, seppel.
-He was attacking Cyan, not defending anyone -the part I highlighted was just the mudslinging he decided to squeeze in on the side.
I have no idea where to go from here. I'm going to do a quick re-read, maybe a PBPA or two. I'll be back later.
So you've never tried to buddy up with a town player as scum? I know I have.
Probably the next player after Seppel would be Burboy, actually. I think Grak's lost his edge. Both Rider and Grak are still awesome analysts of course, and you're up there too, but there's a few very rare people who are simply born with a supernatural BS sensor, that pure smarts struggles to match.
Okay, you have a null read on AI at this point.
Back in time for a moment. I don't understand why you FOS'd AI here. Explain?
Also, I'd like a current town/scum list from you along with reasons.
Because he was also after Syrenz for the same stuff. Atm, I can't remember if AI still feels that way or not because he hasn't posted for awhile.
Sure, but it's not necessary to specify with reasons. After all, it's not really a list if you don't give reasons. It's just empty words.
Scum
Zindabad: horrible case on Syrenz
Cyan: horrible case on Syrenz
Leaning scum
AsianInvasion: Horrible case on Syrenz, but needs to post more so I can decide for sure as he's just barning it.
Neutral/No Read
Ged: First time playing with him and he hasn't really provided a whole lot, but I gather this is normal for him, so I just don't know.
TFF: Seems to be playing his town game, but he has not posted near enough for me to know yet.
MMoD: Needs to post more.
Arcadic: kpaca said he's scum, but didn't elaborate as to why, so I don't know if I agree with him or not. Arcadic needs to post more.
vezokpiraka: Needs to post more, but there's no guarantee I'd be able to read him if he posted as much as I do.
kpaca: As stated before, kpaca is incredibly hard for me to read. Maybe after some more posts, I'll get a feeling off of him.
Skander: Seems to be playing his town game, but as you can see in his sig, I'm not very good at reading him, so he's neutral for now.
Azrael: Seems to be town, but it is entirely too early for me to tell for sure.
Is he in this game?
gigas1: POST MORE
Jobie: POST MORE
shadowfuryix: POST MORE
Awesome
Emo_Pinata: hasn't done anything since he replaced in
Seppel: hasn't done much since he replaced in
MandersHex: Obv awesome
Leaning Town
Anaklusmos: Gut read, but he'll show his true colors eventually if I'm wrong on this.
Pale Mage: Asking good questions, scumhunting, not lurking like he did in Highlander.
Syrenz: Defending himself (as that's all he's been able to do so far) in what I feel is a town manner.
atlseal: Playing like the town atlseal I know and love, i.e. asking good questions, probing where necessary, overall scumhunting.
Town
desCoures: obv town
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Either A)MH knows that Syrenz is town, or B)knows that he isn't. What she doesn't know is how to justify her behavior regarding him, without implicating herself.
Unvote, Vote MH
Wrong. All that means is that I am more willing to call someone scum than I am town.
When the current games are over, I want you to re-think how well you think you can read me, Cyan.
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You cannot be 'sure' that Zindabad nor myself are scum without having more confidence in your read against Syrenz. This is an insincere stance on your part, and it is vastly more likely that you are working with inside knowledge. Meaning that you're scum.
Oh please. Manders has exactly ONE person listed as town.
She put Syrenz in her most strongly town category - and you're accusing her of inconsistency?!?
Cyan -9.5 points.
MH - 11 points.)
He's just using that as a reason to get on my wagon.
+ to Az for calling him on it.
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Nevermind that my point on Syrenz was never bad, nor was Zindabad's follow up to it. I am willing to accept that MH disagrees with it. I was willing to accept that she thought it was scummy(even though it's not). I am not willing to accept that she is convinced that I am scum because of it, but is apparently not at all sure that Syrenz is actually town. For MH attitude to make any sense her, she should have at least classified Syrenz as more town than the rest of the people in that list. Her thought pattern here does not track logically.
vote Cyan.
Can I get a Seppel-read (TM) on that post?
Therefore, I'm neutral (leaning slightly scum) on Az and still reading MH as town as well as kpaca now.
Cyan: Still not getting a strong read on you here. Would you mind going back and answering this?
PPE: And I don't like the "logic" used in Cyan's last post. dC is the only person anyone should have as definitely Town at this point.
Only? It's 360 posts, day one, and it's her strongest classification of townie, short of confirmed! There's no inconsistency here - you're jumping on this as a bandwagon vote, and the language you're using is far more harsh than your analysis deserves.
Granted, "he's attacking someone who I think is town, therefore he is scum" is a fairly terrible argument, and another logic-like point that could be brought against MH, but it's not an inconsistent argument.
I do tend to do this thing where I try to make the people I'm attacking look bad...
I find it's rather effective for the town, on balance.
You should come vote for Cyan with me. All the cool kids are doing it.
She has Syrenz in the same classification as she has someone town based on a 'gut read'. This is ridiculous. Like I said. She knows Syrenz alignment, one way or another.
I think Cyan is spot-on right here.
*thinking frown*
I think you're putting far too much emphasis on the fact that she labelled it "leaning town". There's no logical inconsistency in using a leaning town read, to draw working conclusions of some kind. It's simply unwise.
Kind of like assuming that someone "must" have inside knowledge because she uses shaky logic, and then using that to justify a very strongly worded attack on that person.
I may very well boomerang back to my MH vote, but I'm not satisfied with Cyan either. He's overplaying his hand, at an opportune time.
If it wasn't Cyan, this would be a much stronger point.
MH's argument is definitely "he's attacking someone who I think is town,in a poor and scummy fashion, therefore he is scum," so it's not as bad as you're making it sound here. -But anyway, Cyan conceded that he could see MH viewing him as scum based on it, and that his only issue is with her read of Syrenz. -It's an odd stance to have; it could be that he is trying very hard to not make the vote look like blatant OMGUS.
It's also effective at generating mislynches, if you are so inclined. And in MH's case, not very effective at determining alignment.
I disagree strongly with both you and atlseal here. Sticking him in the confirmed town pile is a bit premature until we have at least 1 of you as known scum. Even if we had you both of you dead in red, I think "probably town" is still the highest I'd place him.
If that's her stance, then Cyan is also misrepping her a bit, by way of a highly pertinent omission.
I have a problem with the mindset of a person that is convinced that 2 people are scum based on their attack on someone that..you're not even sure is scum. It just makes no sense. I just find it more likely that she definitively knows Syrenz' alignment, and is trying to play both sides of the fence.
@TFF: I'm not saying that she should call him 'confirmed town'. Obviously he's not, and that would be grossly obvious regardless of any other factors. I'm saying that her attitude toward myself and Zindabad doesn't make sense if she doesn't have a stronger read on Syrenz than just 'leaning' town.
Maybe I'm just really stuck on the word 'leaning'. But I think it is a worthwhile sticking point.
I was already wary of MH. I feel that her earlier answers to Azrael really don't match up with what she has said thus far in the game. I didn't say anything at the time, because it is very possible that she was just reacting poorly under pressure from a formidable player.
But this latest bit is more than enough for me to feel justified moving my vote to her. There are no logical excuses for this kind of inconsistency.
Pre-post edit:
What 'highly pertinent omission'? MH has been defending Syrenz/calling myself and Zindabad scum for attacking him all game. Now she comes along and says she is only 'leaning town' on him. If she is not sure(or relatively so) that he is town, then how can she be as sure as she puts forth that I am scum? Her only stated reason is my attack on Syrenz.
The pieces of this do not add up.
Boomerang back to vote MH.
(This is a confusion smiley)
Did you miss this, among other things?
Hmm...
Her attitude is based on how she perceived your attacks. -I'm saying that it'd be silly for her to have a stronger read on Syrenz until she knows whether she is right or wrong about the two of you.
Probably. -Anyway, this post is about what I wanted to see from you. Slight town read, even though I still strongly disagree with you.
You know, I think I'm going to start trying to do this the way that Seppel does it.
MH is town. Cyan is town.
Vote TFF. Die, scum!
Unvote, Vote Az
I still don't know what Az saw, but he might be onto something.
He saw me asking questions he couldn't answer.
In case it wasn't obvious from the preceding posts, I was on the verge of voting him, pending his response. His response was... lacking.
I know Manders hasn't. She had a really bad habit of buddying up to scumbuddies as scum.
Though last time I was in a game with her as scum was in Joss Whedon mafia so she might've upgraded her scumgame by then. Anyone know if it changed.
Sure.
She says right there, "Defending himself in what I feel is a town manner."
I'd have to see the Zinda/Cyan attack on Syrenz to make a firmer conclusion, but Manders's assessment appears to be consistent. Cyan is blowing this out of proportion for some reason.
It kind of is. I'd expect TFF to be smarter than that.
Does TFF have any votes on him? Has he? Has he had any pressure?
For a first vote on TFF, and a quite random vote at that, TFF has gone way into overreaction-mode.
Who were you voting for or thinking about voting before Az?
The "Hmm..." in 373 was where I considered a vote, but decided to wait for a response. What I got from him was clever.
Look at the context and timing of his vote.
PPE: I was voting zinda earlier.
I see an Az ignoring you and then performing what basically amounts to a Seppel vote-test.
The Syrenz case is built on Syrenz not being on his "A" game.
I'm not hot to trot on the MH wagon.
Az is having more fun than I've seen before.
I don't trust AI at all, and I will be looking into him in detail.
I need to do a more detailed reread. I've pretty much just skimmed 70% of the thread.
I stand corrected. I did a quick re-skim and saw he did engage in the Shadowfury wagon as a pass. However, he still hasn't commented much at all on newer developments, which feels defensive as hell.
This Was his last post in the thread. Manders had already scummed up the thread, Az had come out of his PR shell and zero lines of text directed at anyone not attacking him. I also don't like that the only words Syrenz has directed at anyone not attacking him revolve around the Shadowfuryxz wagon.
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
This is the most wrongerest thing I have heard all game. I'm guessing you really haven't read like, anything, he has said.
TFF seems to be regarding Az's vote on him. I too did not think that you had any intention of voting Az, and think you are lying at this point. Kind of want to see more pressure on him.
MMoD I haven't forgotten you.
Vote TFF
Besides, his(and Jobies, and Geds) justification for voting shadowfury was entirely valid. Ultimately, I think that shadow's post was more newb, less scum(I've gotten burned on this one enough times now to actually be wary); but if he died somehow and flipped scum it wouldn't be a surprise. It just feels like one of those wagons where you could lynch the person based on being new, but whether or not they actually flip scum would be a toss-up.
I really don't think that you have anything on MMoD, Anak.
As for TFF. I am extremely skeptical that he was considering voting him with that 'Hmm' line. I read that entire exchange, on his part, as completely opposite of the way he is trying to describe it. I smell a really bad initial reaction, and a lie to try to cover that up. Unvote, Vote TFF
The comment was sarcastic. Note that I referred to him as "Azrael" as opposed to "you."
I must have missed your question.
(Plus, you called him scum in the RVS, but I didn't count that.)
A combination of the fact that I'm probably getting vigged tonight and the high pace of posts in this thread has led me to slowly lose interest. At this point I am ready for a lynch (MandersHex preferably), and if I'm still alive come Day Two I'll participate more.
@Seppel: GHS Mafia is MandersHex's most recent complete game as mafia. She is not quite as scummy here as she was there, but this still doesn't feel like her town play. She also didn't interact too much with her buddies Calvin and Gigas1 in that game, but getting lynched Day One may have had something to do with that.
I remember reading that mmod lurks hardcore as town and only posts a lot as scum, which is one of the reasons I pushed for his lynch in Powerful Wizards. I was wrong there, so I've since had to reevaluate that overly simplistic tell for mmod.
Azrael is probably town, TFF not so much. I will give TFF a chance to respond to the wagon before I decide whether to move my vote.
I guess you missed the case I briefly outlined in the same post where I voted, so I'll go over it more deeply here:
MH again gives her reasons for thinking these two are scum.
While going after Cyan, AZ takes a moment to misrep MH's stance and continue his game of word twisting to make her look as bad as possible.
I call Az out on this.
He responds by implicitly admitting he has no idea what MH's opinions are and defelects the blame for that onto Cyan, to further that push as well, accusing Cyan of the one doing the misrepping in this post:
-which, of course, doesn't contain any misrep by Cyan, but rather some poor misreading from Az.
If MH was his top scum suspect, shouldn't Az already know where she stands on things? -What kind of analysis could he possibly be doing if he is missing things like this?
And when I call him out a second time, does he respond with an explanation? -No, he just votes for no reason to again deflect attention.
So, no, my vote is not an overreaction. This bit of misrepping and deflection is more than enough to push my leaning scum read into something more solid. He's scum, no way any decent townie does half of this.
In the meantime, to clarify: I'd like AI to justify his flavour of hating me and being townie.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
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Az did some bogus moves. And I am not sure TFF would do that as scum. I mean he is an experienced player and freaked out at one vote. PFF. yeah sure.
unvote
vote Az
You jumped so much in the Cyan and MH case then you switched to TFF.
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I call bull☺☺☺☺ on this entire post.
We can look past that saying "Hmm" when leading up to an action that you plan to do in your next post is a very blatant and newbish scumtell. I'd expect better from you, but then again, I've never seen you as scum.
But let's get to the meat: You selectively cut Az's post to take it completely out of context!
First, Cyan's post:
Now Azrael's reply, with your cut:
Yeah, sounds like he's really jumping on Manders there, doesn't it?
Let's look at the full picture:
OH REALLY! So Azrael is actually defending Manders's argument? Not attacking her like you say he is?
Busted.
Gigas1 has requested replacement. Contacting the list.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
MandersHex (5) - AsianInvasion, Skander, kpaca, Pale Mage, atlseal
TheFooFish (4) - Azrael, Anaklusmos, Cyan, Seppel
Azrael (3) - Gigas1, TheFooFish, vezokpiraka
shadowfuryix (3) - Jobie, MMoD, Ged
Syrenz (2) - zindabad, Arcadic
atlseal (1) - shadowfuryix
AsianInvasion (1) - desCoures
zindabad (1) - Syrenz
With 22 alive, it is 12 to lynch.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Go read the original Amistarian. If you're expecting awesome, you won't be disappointed.
-because claiming that it was "another point against her" and then switching his vote back to her a few posts later certainly sounds like a defense.
I expect better from you, seppel.
-He was attacking Cyan, not defending anyone -the part I highlighted was just the mudslinging he decided to squeeze in on the side.
I'm inclined to agree.
This...
I have no idea where to go from here. I'm going to do a quick re-read, maybe a PBPA or two. I'll be back later.
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Gentlemen, we have our lynch for day one.
I could get into the details of what I spotted, but I'd prefer to keep the scum spooked and in the dark.
TFF's subsequent implosion is quite enough to put him away for good.