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I liked the tordeck wagon but I believe his claim. I have mixed feelings about cantripmancer. He pinged my scumdar here and there but his post 141 reflected almost my exact thoughts about the Vez/Nacho situation, so I'm leaning town on him. Got town read on PK and Seppel thus far.
Personally I think Vez is scum but it's based entirely on modgaming, specifically the fact that the role is basically pointless on a townie but strategically very interesting for a mafia.
And that's about where I am right now.
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So you think tordeck is "a townie that screwed up his flavor while trying to paraphrase it," but you add on the bit about a "real doc" why? Do you think he screwed up his role name? The only problem we had with the flavor was that in the Harry Potter universe there is no Shell spell. I said I figured that Protego was close enough to Shell for flavor sake that either tordeck was paraphrasing, or RobRoy took all of the spells in this game and generalized them. You're saying that the problem you had was that Harry Potter couldn't possibly be a doc, but tordeck was just mistaken in his claim? that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
FoS: Anaklusmos
Uh, no. First, I added the bit about a real doc because I have been wrong before, and if I am wrong about this, having a real doc will sort out the situation in the long run. Remember this is assuming tordeck is falseclaiming if this happens.
If you believe what you say about Protego vs. Shell, then Harry Potter makes a lot of sense as a doc, so I'm not sure where you read that in my post. I never said that Harry Potter couldn't possibly be a doc, I think you confused the end of my post up.
Uh, no. First, I added the bit about a real doc because I have been wrong before, and if I am wrong about this, having a real doc will sort out the situation in the long run. Remember this is assuming tordeck is falseclaiming if this happens.
If you believe what you say about Protego vs. Shell, then Harry Potter makes a lot of sense as a doc, so I'm not sure where you read that in my post. I never said that Harry Potter couldn't possibly be a doc, I think you confused the end of my post up.
You never qualified that you were adding the part about a "real doc" if you were wrong, so let's clear this up shall we:
Do you think tordeck is lying about being Harry Potter?
Do you think tordeck is lying about being a Doctor?
If you answer yes to either of those, please explain your thoughts.
Personally I think Vez is scum but it's based entirely on modgaming, specifically the fact that the role is basically pointless on a townie but strategically very interesting for a mafia.
If there is a real doc, then I think they should very much counterclaim. Outing the doc--which is one of the less powerful power roles--is worth getting rid of scum today. After all, who is to say Tordeck isn't some scum power role we would be denying the scum, if we can guarantee he's scum?
Outside a counterclaim, I don't think he's the right lynch for today. Maybe tomorrow or the day after--he's still pretty scummy--but the chances of him being town are a bit too high.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
If there is a real doc, then I think they should very much counterclaim. Outing the doc--which is one of the less powerful power roles--is worth getting rid of scum today. After all, who is to say Tordeck isn't some scum power role we would be denying the scum, if we can guarantee he's scum?
Outside a counterclaim, I don't think he's the right lynch for today. Maybe tomorrow or the day after--he's still pretty scummy--but the chances of him being town are a bit too high.
This posts sends chills down my spine, and not the good kind.
If there is a real doc, then I think they should very much counterclaim. Outing the doc--which is one of the less powerful power roles--is worth getting rid of scum today. After all, who is to say Tordeck isn't some scum power role we would be denying the scum, if we can guarantee he's scum?
Outside a counterclaim, I don't think he's the right lynch for today. Maybe tomorrow or the day after--he's still pretty scummy--but the chances of him being town are a bit too high.
If there is a real doc, then I think they should very much counterclaim. Outing the doc--which is one of the less powerful power roles--is worth getting rid of scum today. After all, who is to say Tordeck isn't some scum power role we would be denying the scum, if we can guarantee he's scum?
Outside a counterclaim, I don't think he's the right lynch for today. Maybe tomorrow or the day after--he's still pretty scummy--but the chances of him being town are a bit too high.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
Going out for my wife's birthday soon. Just a few things.
Nom's last post is a legitimate complaint, but then again I'm not a big fan of barning. I don't like that he's knocking people for a similar reason that I voted him for. He voted to put Tordeck at L-2 to force a claim, which I think is actually a worse reason to vote someone then barning.
Ged: I guess I'm going to have to just not get the in-jokes. Kind of mean of you to answer me with another one. Funny though, lol.
Mod: Just a note that Vibebox unvoted me in his last post.
@ DYH and dkd. Do you still want me to go find what I didn't like about tordeck and post it? I had a busy period where I wasn't really able to post.
Unvote Tordeck
It comes down to whether is it more likely for Tordeck to be a lying scum that made up poor flavor, or a townie that screwed up his flavor while trying to paraphrase it? I personally think its the second choice. Regardless, if there is a real doc out there, he will come out eventually and that will be the end of tordeck.
And can we really justify the lynch of an un-CCed Doc Day 1? I certainly don't think so.
Yes, I very much want you to go through and do that, please.
Yay for being in the game! Boo for not being Orco Yay for interesting stuff happening already! Boo for me leaving my read-along-notes at work.
I liked the tordeck wagon but I believe his claim. I have mixed feelings about cantripmancer. He pinged my scumdar here and there but his post 141 reflected almost my exact thoughts about the Vez/Nacho situation, so I'm leaning town on him. Got town read on PK and Seppel thus far.
(nit-pick: I think it was Orko.)
I agree with you about Cantripmancer and PK, but not about Seppel. Can you point out to me what it is you like about the latter?
Quote from Kraj »
Personally I think Vez is scum but it's based entirely on modgaming, specifically the fact that the role is basically pointless on a townie but strategically very interesting for a mafia.
And that's about where I am right now.
You're right that from a mod-perspective Vezok's role is much more intriguing on a scum, and I do have a personal reason I'm interested in watching him. We'll see about that one later.
Hello, really terrible vote; considering Seppel said nothing at all. You can't even try to sell this as understanding the logic behind the vote; it's clear you're barning for barning's sake. I don't like the wagon at all, anyway.
@Nacho: Just so we're all clear - you do not have any assurances about Vezok's alignment, correct?
I agree with you about Cantripmancer and PK, but not about Seppel. Can you point out to me what it is you like about the latter?
Basically every post of his that has content (maybe half a dozen) look like townie thinking to me and overall his play is about as pro-town as I've ever seen from him. I'd be more specific but it seemed silly to point two two dozen things and say "good question", "I agree with this", "tone strikes me as townie Seppel", etc.
On Nom's wagon I'm rather meh. I greatly dislike the post he's being voted over, but I'm just not feeling it.
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The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
Basically every post of his that has content (maybe half a dozen) look like townie thinking to me and overall his play is about as pro-town as I've ever seen from him. I'd be more specific but it seemed silly to point two two dozen things and say "good question", "I agree with this", "tone strikes me as townie Seppel", etc.
Sucking up to me is a good way to make me think you're town, though. I suspect you know this.
What can I say that hasn't been brought up already? Nom's vote that put tordeck at claim range pinged my scumdar. At first I attributed it to him being an overzealous townie. But then Nom's post #205 pinged it again, hard.
Obvscum play is obvious. I'm not sure why Seppel seems to be questioning it.
Right now Cantrip and Nom are my prime scum candidates. Vezok's still iffy and tordeck's sliding more into the town column (I think if he were scum his buddies would have tried to get him to correct the flavor on his claim using their daytalk.)
Mmm, Vezo doing it again. I really don't like his playstyle. But this time he gets a pass as that would be tooo ballsy a play for scum and I don't think vezo is dumb/smart enough to try that gambit.
Compared with:
Quote from Tordeck Post-Nacho »
I said modkill and not replace because I figured since nacho was only brought into the game after it started it wouldn't have to much effect as it would just put us where we started at.
Now thinking a bit, in symbiote mafia a scum did enter the game in n1 annd not at the start. I didn't realize that the scum had daytalk. This atcually makes me think vez maybe running a gambit based off that in order to bring in another scumbuddy, and with all of you taking him at face value on nacho = town bit it seems to be working if that is in fact the case.
Wifom that nacho has been flinging around I'm belleiving more and more in this theory.
As such vote nacho
I somewhat understand where you're coming from here in the switch, but I'd like you to clarify it some more anyway.
I don't see any reason Vezok isn't confirmed town for this.
Probably town =/= Confirmed Town
Not good to blur those two lines.
Quote from Tordeck »
Mmm, Vezo doing it again. I really don't like his playstyle. But this time he gets a pass as that would be tooo ballsy a play for scum and I don't think vezo is dumb/smart enough to try that gambit.
Quote from Seppel »
Vote Tordeck. You are trying to plant suspicion where there is none. Hell, YOU DON'T EVEN BELIEVE IT YOURSELF.
I'm not really seeing what you're saying you see here, Seppel.
This post has way too many points that have already been brought up recently or simply parts that are fluff and didn't really serve any meaning.
Example:
Quote from Cantrip »
Random is random, but no vote, which was pointed out as slightly odd by DHY, as your next post expresses remorse that RVS is over. Your explanation (2 posts down) seemed sufficient to me.
Quote from Cantrip »
Ok on both counts.
Quote from Cantrip »
Pretty extreme reaction against a role that has been identified as miller-level town potential. That said, I'm too much of an optimist to believe that you would try to get a player modkilled to win the game, so I believe that your dislike for Nacho was at least partially behind the statement. If you're scum, it'd certainly be a nice bonus, though. I don't know that I believe your statement (below) that you figured it would put us where we started, since if the role is town, it's likely a balancing element, especially with another player "in the know" about it.
etc.
I don't see why most of that couldn't have been reduced into a paragraph. It's not like it happened so long ago we needed a mass refresher on points recently traveled. It's like you just wanted to justify your vote by throwing a lot of crap on the wall and say, "Look I wrote a lot of words guys I am right."
Quote from Zionite »
@Cantrip: tordeck's play thus far reminds me of his recent play in Heroes mafia as vanilla town. I'm not really seeing indication of a mafia alignment here.
Details?
Quote from Tordeck »
Also look how fast my wagon has rolled. I'll bet you 10-1 that at least 2 scum are already on it. I'll go even farther and give ya 5-1 that DYH (having been a scumbuddy in Highlander) is one of them. Cantrip's points make sense to me.
Ugh. I can't stand this attitude.
If you act scummy, both town and mafia are going to vote for you - town misguided by your bad play and opportunistic mafia taking potshots. There's always value looking back at voting records, sure. But don't act like you're some kind of martyr who got mercilessly beat down by a throng of mafia goons - your own actions are plenty shady.
I'd also like to see you elaborate on your "DYH is scum" position.
Quote from Anak »
Vote Tordeck
I agree with everything said about him, and his reasoning isn't enough to quell my suspicions of him.
Essentially the definition of bandwagon - "I agree with everything everyone else said."
Quote from Tordeck »
Ill leave it at this- I don't claim I die, I do claim I still die just in a different way. So I'm going to do what I can to prolong the day as much as I can, so that more analysis can be conducted on my wagon.
Quote from Dropkickguy »
Was this not a flashing neon sign?
I actually thought he was implying that he would explode upon claiming because of the second sentence - "I do I claim I still die just in a different way" + "So I'm going to do what I can to prolong the day as much as I can." That, and doctor claims typically doesn't mean the day is going to instantly end and prevent us from analyzing a wagon.
Quote from vez »
Harrypotter must be town.
Or scum?
CLAIM.
This was extremely insightful.
Quote from Falcon »
That claim makes me sad unless someone counterclaims. Losing the doc would be bad, but allowing someone to parade around as the doc when they aren't is worse imo. Given the pace of that wagon I think we should definitely look there for scum. Going to go and reread that now.
"Look guys I'm so town because I am sad about things that are bad for the town."
Quote from Nom Anor »
It actually makes so little sense, I'm going to have to unvote--no sane person is going to falseclaim Harry Potter, town doctor.
Has Tordeck's play shown much sanity here?
Quote from Cantrip »
PK is town.
Quote from Nom Anor »
DYH is town.
That's about all I'm seeing here.
Quote from Ged »
I agree with the above quotes.
Quote from Cantrip »
[@Falcon's Semi-Random BG Vote] Why semi-random? He hasn't even posted yet.
He, like myself, was probably still quite butthurt over the ending of Shrek Mafia.
Quote from Falcon »
Due to what he said at the end of Shrek mafia about how he's been playing scummy in order to get a scum win (which he did). People assumed he just always played scummy and let him go. We lost that game after vigging scum N1 and lynching scum D2. He did say he wasn't going to do that again, but we don't know if he's lying or not. That being said, I don't want to actually lynch him unless he acts scummy.
Wait, that vote had more than just "fun" spite behind it?
Quote from DropKick »
Vez says he's Town, and I have no reason to believe otherwise. I think his whole gambit-gone-wrong serves to actually reinforce that. I may not like his playstyle, but his reasoning seems to come from a Townie mindest. He was trying to the best he could in the situation. I don't agree with his decision to come out and counter vez to create WIFOM, but it makes no sense whatsoever to do that as scum. Scum would have taken the opportunity to ride vez's assurance, and would have loved for the Town to devote PR's to saving him. Unfortunately I'm convinced he's Town.
As such, I don't want him lynched or modkilled, but I wouldn't argue against a forced replacement.
I was actually talking more about the Zionite and Tordeck stuff but I guess that wasn't the clearest post I ever wrote.
Sucking up to me is a good way to make me think you're town, though. I suspect you know this.
*shrug* That's true for most players, I think. Probably one of my biggest failings is thinking a player is town because they agree with me a lot (and vice versa).
"Look guys I'm so town because I am sad about things that are bad for the town."
This point, which I happen to agree with, strongly suggests scummy behavior from falconn. Why no follow up from you? This same post contains stronger pokes against players for weaker tells.
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But you didn't initially say "in the context of..." and thus managed to to insinuate that was tordek was lying without actually saying as much. It comes off as manipulative.
Seriously? It was a response to Falkonn's assertion that if there was another doc, counterclaiming was the best action for him to take. I said, "I disagree," and proceeded to explain why. How is that not "in the context of"?
Quote from dkd »
The problem isn't that you unvoted. The problem is how you unvoted. By saying "I don't like the flavor, but he is claiming doc... and I'm going to be away for a little bit... so I'll unvote" you're still casting suspicion as you remove your vote, which says to me that you'd really like to keep your vote there, but appearances dictate you do otherwise.
Or it could be me identifying the internal conflict of seeing flavor that doesn't make sense and adhering to my standard of not lynching an un-cc'd power role.
Quote from dkd »
If lynching based on flavor is bad, you should at least get the flavor right:
I guess I can see where you're coming from. I just always saw Harry as a combatant rather than a protector.
So the flavor is off. Everyone's chimed in about this already. How likely is it that you think Tordeck is scum?
Given time to consider, very unlikely. If nothing else, claiming your spell is "shell" when you're HP is the crappiest falseclaim ever, guaranteed to attract attention.
I don't see why most of that couldn't have been reduced into a paragraph. It's not like it happened so long ago we needed a mass refresher on points recently traveled. It's like you just wanted to justify your vote by throwing a lot of crap on the wall and say, "Look I wrote a lot of words guys I am right."
That's how I play. I'm not often one to just barn; I like to do the research, and if I'm going to reread a player, I'm going to post my thoughts on him when I do.
Quote from PK »
Short posts from Cantrip, Nom Anor, and Ged
Perhaps it was because your images got removed that I'm confused, but what was the point of posting these?
@ Nom: I disagree with your assertion that if there's another doc, he should counterclaim immediately. Please explain why you think it's the best play.
Back, still reading what I missed but I wanted to clarify some thingss. Voldemort is mentioned by name in my pm. I used the longer wording to help with paraphrasing. I used shell because I've been immersed in FFTactics the last few days and it was the first defensive magic spelll that came to mind. I wasn't actually given a spell name to use.
This point, which I happen to agree with, strongly suggests scummy behavior from falconn. Why no follow up from you? This same post contains stronger pokes against players for weaker tells.
I was doing a full review of the thread. I was also doing it very late at night - the time stamp says 7:36 AM, but I was working on that and re-reading for hours before hand. Literally, I stopped writing because I had to go take a shower and get ready to take a bus to go to school where I am now typing this post. I also got a bagel sandwich and a coffee. The coffee was disappointingly bitter. The keys on this library keyboard are also quite stiff.
As you can surmise, I did not finish this re-read. Not at all. I was on I do believe Page 10, and near the end, I was getting tired and my mental functioning was not quite as sharp, no sirree. I just hit submit with what I had and figured I'd go from there later.
I also just don't value that tell as highly you do. My experience offsite is that there is a fair percentage players, mostly newer, who do like to go around crying about the town's misfortune. Now you and I, Kraj, know being emotionless is to our advantage. (We also aware that respecting other people and agreeing with them will play to their ego and make them think you are town.)
It's something I generally note for the larger picture (I'm big at looking at a framework of a player's actions in the general scheme of things at large), but I don't policy lynch over it or anything. Perhaps my lack of love for the tell stems back to 2005 when I stole Jeeptells from Mafiascum and proceeded to triumphantly march into MPFG with the "Mafia Gospel" to discover there, culturally, pretty much everyone cried over the doctor/cop dying and I was actually made fun of.
The tell you probably think I overvalue is the one on Cantrip - saying a great deal while saying a great deal of nothing, simply because lurking and non-contributing to mafia victory is a common occurrence where I used to play mafia, so naturally active lurking became mafia Satan. Of course, I'm aware I overvalue it. Here, anyway. That's the joy of plowing into new virgin lands.
Quote from Cantrip »
That's how I play. I'm not often one to just barn; I like to do the research, and if I'm going to reread a player, I'm going to post my thoughts on him when I do.
That wasn't my criticism - I wasn't complaining that you wrote a long, introspective post. (That would be extremely hypocritical.) I was pointing out your research had already been pointed out and you were essentially dissecting the already known or saying little in the process of doing that, i.e. that you made a post that looked like it contributed a lot with evidence but it really wasn't almost anything new or helpful.
:confuse2: Ok, let's see if I have this correct:
1) I agree with you that Nom is being scummy enough to warrant a vote.
2) Your response to that is "what the sheep", and then you ask for an explanation.
(I read that as you questioning the reasoning behind my vote)
3) I give it and you switch votes to me?
<boggle>
How exactly does that chain of events make you discount your own read on a player?
(Actually I have an idea about it, but that trail leads WAY off the normal cognitive map)
That was a lot of response with a lot of non-pertinent details (coffee, keyboard stiffness, etc.).
Quote from PK »
That wasn't my criticism - I wasn't complaining that you wrote a long, introspective post. (That would be extremely hypocritical.) I was pointing out your research had already been pointed out and you were essentially dissecting the already known or saying little in the process of doing that, i.e. that you made a post that looked like it contributed a lot with evidence but it really wasn't almost anything new or helpful.
Oh. Well, I guess that's another byproduct of how I play: to ensure that I'm working off my own opinion and not just following others, I do my own PoV.
Fos: Tilde for thinking even for a second that Seppel's cognitive map is anywhere close to normal.
@ Nom: I disagree with your assertion that if there's another doc, he should counterclaim immediately. Please explain why you think it's the best play.
1. The cop is a stronger role than the cop.
2. It is usually the right play for the cop to come out with a guilty investigation as soon as possible.
3. Therefore, the doc outing his or her self for a guilty investigation should be the right play.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
@Nom: I presume you meant Cop is a stronger role than Doc in line 1. While I might not come out with a guilty result right away as an unclaimed cop (game state and likeliness of a daykill would dictate my play), I understand the point you're making; I agree that a 1-1 trade with a false doc claim to kill scum is a winner. To add, particularly on day 1, and considering that the false-claimer could have an ability of his own, makes it even more appealing.
That said, there is a logical argument to be made for the "real doc" to stay hidden and obviously Tordeck (if lying) would be exposed upon his (real doc's) death. That being the doc can continue to work, as opposed to being locked up by the scum RB, if one exists. However, even that scenario leaves investigative roles the freedom to work, and while unexposed, isn't a bad situation at all.
1. The cop is a stronger role than the cop.
2. It is usually the right play for the cop to come out with a guilty investigation as soon as possible.
3. Therefore, the doc outing his or her self for a guilty investigation should be the right play.
Moreso than what DYH mentioned (although I concur with his points, too), there's a significant difference between cop and doc in that if the cop dies unrevealed, the mod-confirmed information that he's received dies with him. Docs normally have no such confirmed info; the revelation of their role is the totality of the information they can impart to the game. Therefore, imo, especially day 1, doc shouldn't counterclaim because there is more benefit to their hidden protection than in the removal of the scum. That's not to say that the reveal should delay until lylo (which I think someone mentioned): that's just asking for trouble, as if the first doc is "real" and a good-appearing scum decides to gambit a CC late game, you don't want that happening when the game is on the line.
That a revealed doc adds a layer of protection to investigative roles is pertinent, but is less valuable than the double-layer protection of an unknown doctor adding the extra insulation.
I voted Nom Amor for being obvscum.
The three people who are arguing about this thing are
Tilde - Don't kill any more docs please.
Seppel - .....
Vezok - ...........
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@PK I think vez is more likely to be scum, but there is no way I know that for sure. More of a gut feeling at this point.
Vote Tordeck
I agree with everything said about him, and his reasoning isn't enough to quell my suspicions of him.
Am I the only one who thinks all of his posts read like this and make me want to lynch him?
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Definitely not the only one that noticed Vibe, I just found Nom's vote to be worse.
Quote from PK »
Originally Posted by Falcon
That claim makes me sad unless someone counterclaims. Losing the doc would be bad, but allowing someone to parade around as the doc when they aren't is worse imo. Given the pace of that wagon I think we should definitely look there for scum. Going to go and reread that now.
(neat picture w/ crocodile tears)
"Look guys I'm so town because I am sad about things that are bad for the town."
I have a bad habit of both sharing my emotions and thoughts that I have that I don't need to as town. PK was town with me in Shrek mafia, so ironically he should be able to confirm this. It's something that we talked about in that game. As a side note, I also have a problem with tunnel visioning sometimes.
Quote from PK »
Originally Posted by Falcon
Due to what he said at the end of Shrek mafia about how he's been playing scummy in order to get a scum win (which he did). People assumed he just always played scummy and let him go. We lost that game after vigging scum N1 and lynching scum D2. He did say he wasn't going to do that again, but we don't know if he's lying or not. That being said, I don't want to actually lynch him unless he acts scummy.
Wait, that vote had more than just "fun" spite behind it?
No, I don't think educating people about what happened makes that vote any less of a "fun spite" vote. Could you explain to me how you think there's more to it then that? I decided at the end of Shrek mafia that BG was going to be my "random vote" the next time we played a game together.
Thanks for the clarification on your nom votes Vez/Tilde. I think if you had explained yourselves that way before instead of mindlessly barning people wouldn't have made such a big deal about things.
This post has way too many points that have already been brought up recently or simply parts that are fluff and didn't really serve any meaning.
I don't see why most of that couldn't have been reduced into a paragraph. It's not like it happened so long ago we needed a mass refresher on points recently traveled. It's like you just wanted to justify your vote by throwing a lot of crap on the wall and say, "Look I wrote a lot of words guys I am right."
That's normal for Cantrip. He's being more aggressive than I remember, but still WORDS WORDS WORDS I HAVE TO SPELL OUT EVERY SINGLE POSSIBILITY IN INCREDIBLE DETAIL.
This point, which I happen to agree with, strongly suggests scummy behavior from falconn. Why no follow up from you? This same post contains stronger pokes against players for weaker tells.
I was thinking this in the back of my head, but I imagine PKchu wants to glean responses first. Or he took so long that he couldn't finish. He's very thorough.
Given time to consider, very unlikely. If nothing else, claiming your spell is "shell" when you're HP is the crappiest falseclaim ever, guaranteed to attract attention.
Back, still reading what I missed but I wanted to clarify some thingss. Voldemort is mentioned by name in my pm. I used the longer wording to help with paraphrasing. I used shell because I've been immersed in FFTactics the last few days and it was the first defensive magic spelll that came to mind. I wasn't actually given a spell name to use.
I was doing a full review of the thread. I was also doing it very late at night - the time stamp says 7:36 AM, but I was working on that and re-reading for hours before hand. Literally, I stopped writing because I had to go take a shower and get ready to take a bus to go to school where I am now typing this post. I also got a bagel sandwich and a coffee. The coffee was disappointingly bitter. The keys on this library keyboard are also quite stiff.
As you can surmise, I did not finish this re-read. Not at all. I was on I do believe Page 10, and near the end, I was getting tired and my mental functioning was not quite as sharp, no sirree. I just hit submit with what I had and figured I'd go from there later.
:confuse2: Ok, let's see if I have this correct:
1) I agree with you that Nom is being scummy enough to warrant a vote.
2) Your response to that is "what the sheep", and then you ask for an explanation.
(I read that as you questioning the reasoning behind my vote)
3) I give it and you switch votes to me?
<boggle>
How exactly does that chain of events make you discount your own read on a player?
(Actually I have an idea about it, but that trail leads WAY off the normal cognitive map)
1) First you /barn me when all I did was call out Nom in the laziest way possible. Vez does too.
2) This brings up alarm bells.
3) You act very self-aware. You say I'm questioning "it."
4) I ask you what "it" is. I want an answer. I vote you.
5) You respond by not answering my question, and instead you ask me a question that puts words in my mouth.
I have not discounted my read on Nom. I am questioning you.
I voted Nom Amor for being obvscum.
The three people who are arguing about this thing are
Tilde - Don't kill any more docs please.
Seppel - .....
Vezok - ...........
Please explain what Nom said that makes him obvsscum.
Deleted one, too. First there was his post as it stands, then he was warned for image leeching and the image was removed, then he explained that the site was a photo-bucket like site and didn't understand the warning, and finally the original post was restored and the second deleted.
Sorry for a lack of effort this game everyone. I promise to end that now.
Just for you DYH. Starting with what I didn't like about tordeck.
Quote from tordeck »
I said modkill and not replace because I figured since nacho was only brought into the game after it started it wouldn't have to much effect as it would just put us where we started at.
Now thinking a bit, in symbiote mafia a scum did enter the game in n1 annd not at the start. I didn't realize that the scum had daytalk. This atcually makes me think vez maybe running a gambit based off that in order to bring in another scumbuddy, and with all of you taking him at face value on nacho = town bit it seems to be working if that is in fact the case.
Wifom that nacho has been flinging around I'm belleiving more and more in this theory.
As such vote nacho
It starts here. His theory doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because vez says that they will both die if vez dies. He has no reason to lie about that, so we can presume it to be true. Even if vez was lying about nacho being town, we will lynch two scum at once if vez winds up being scum. The fact he is feeling more comfortable about his theory because of WIFOM really made me suspicious of him.
Quote from tordeck »
Vote me with you want. I know where I stand and I will continue to be the best townie I can until I either clear myself of you decide to lynch me. I just ask that if your going to do it then do it either before I go on fri or wait for me to get back on Monday so I can answer your points and make my claim.
Ps all meta is in my blog.
I really didn't like this. Townies should never challenge someone to vote for them. The "Vote me I dare you!" mentality makes no sense as town, the bluff only works as scum. Calling yourself town in the same post only hurts him. Also, note the defeatism here.
And here is his explanations that didn't suffice to me.
Quote from tordeck »
our taking vezo at face that he will die with nacho. I'm not. Also vezo is not a threat in my mind as I dont see him as a great player, and can be delt with later. third on a strictly personal level - I DONT WANT NACHO IN THE GAME ANYMORE, thought i was pretty clear on that.
There is no reason for vez to lie about them dying together. The fact he insisted on it didn't help his case.
Quote from tordeck »
Also look how fast my wagon has rolled. I'll bet you 10-1 that at least 2 scum are already on it. I'll go even farther and give ya 5-1 that DYH (having been a scumbuddy in Highlander) is one of them. Cantrip's points make sense to me.
As opposed to trying to stop the fast wagon on him, he makes jokes about scum jumping on it. Which won't really do much to slow the wagon down, and it didn't.
Townies should never challenge someone to vote for them. The "Vote me I dare you!" mentality makes no sense as town, the bluff only works as scum. Calling yourself town in the same post only hurts him.
That was a lot of response with a lot of non-pertinent details (coffee, keyboard stiffness, etc.).
Are you trying to draw a comparison between that post and my criticism, Can't Trip?
Because the non-pertinent details were meant to be funny. Maybe I'm not funny when I'm tired.
Quote from Cantripmancer »
Oh. Well, I guess that's another byproduct of how I play: to ensure that I'm working off my own opinion and not just following others, I do my own PoV.
Quote from Seppel »
That's normal for Cantrip. He's being more aggressive than I remember, but still WORDS WORDS WORDS I HAVE TO SPELL OUT EVERY SINGLE POSSIBILITY IN INCREDIBLE DETAIL.
Quote from Falcon »
I have a bad habit of both sharing my emotions and thoughts that I have that I don't need to as town. PK was town with me in Shrek mafia, so ironically he should be able to confirm this. It's something that we talked about in that game. As a side note, I also have a problem with tunnel visioning sometimes.
Refresh my memory. Are you referring to the LVP thing?
Sorry for a lack of effort this game everyone. I promise to end that now.
Just for you DYH. Starting with what I didn't like about tordeck.
Aww, just for me? Thanks!
Quote from Anaklusmos »
It starts here. His theory doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because vez says that they will both die if vez dies. He has no reason to lie about that, so we can presume it to be true. Even if vez was lying about nacho being town, we will lynch two scum at once if vez winds up being scum. The fact he is feeling more comfortable about his theory because of WIFOM really made me suspicious of him.
You can't think of a reason Vez would lie about that? (Obviously this is now a moot point, but I think pulling doc protection would be a good one.) I'm OK with you having problems with that post, though, it was littered with them.
Quote from Anaklusmos »
I really didn't like this. Townies should never challenge someone to vote for them. The "Vote me I dare you!" mentality makes no sense as town, the bluff only works as scum. Calling yourself town in the same post only hurts him. Also, note the defeatism here.
Yep, agreed on the challenge point; obviously the defeatism makes sense in light of his claim, though, but again - hindsight.
Quote from Anak »
And here is his explanations that didn't suffice to me.
There is no reason for vez to lie about them dying together. The fact he insisted on it didn't help his case.
Talked about that above briefly, but OK.
Quote from Anak »
As opposed to trying to stop the fast wagon on him, he makes jokes about scum jumping on it. Which won't really do much to slow the wagon down, and it didn't.
I don't really think he was joking, here, though. I think he really believed his wagon was scum-driven and is paranoid about my play having been his scum buddy in Highlander.
Really just wanted to get a feel for your thought processes, thanks for indulging me.
I liked the tordeck wagon but I believe his claim. I have mixed feelings about cantripmancer. He pinged my scumdar here and there but his post 141 reflected almost my exact thoughts about the Vez/Nacho situation, so I'm leaning town on him. Got town read on PK and Seppel thus far.
Personally I think Vez is scum but it's based entirely on modgaming, specifically the fact that the role is basically pointless on a townie but strategically very interesting for a mafia.
And that's about where I am right now.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Uh, no. First, I added the bit about a real doc because I have been wrong before, and if I am wrong about this, having a real doc will sort out the situation in the long run. Remember this is assuming tordeck is falseclaiming if this happens.
If you believe what you say about Protego vs. Shell, then Harry Potter makes a lot of sense as a doc, so I'm not sure where you read that in my post. I never said that Harry Potter couldn't possibly be a doc, I think you confused the end of my post up.
You never qualified that you were adding the part about a "real doc" if you were wrong, so let's clear this up shall we:
Do you think tordeck is lying about being Harry Potter?
Do you think tordeck is lying about being a Doctor?
If you answer yes to either of those, please explain your thoughts.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
As it should be.
It gets an additional vote and another voice.
Vez is Ash.
Oh god.
Outside a counterclaim, I don't think he's the right lynch for today. Maybe tomorrow or the day after--he's still pretty scummy--but the chances of him being town are a bit too high.
This posts sends chills down my spine, and not the good kind.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Vote Nom Anor
Hello, scumNom.
Cantripmancer(3) - ~Tilde~, dropkickdude, Ged
tordeck(2) - nacho wizard, Anaklusmos
nacho wizard(2) - Zionite, tordeck
Nom_Anor(2) - falkonn, Seppel
falkonn(1) - VibeBox
Anaklusmos(1) - DYH
Not voting:
Cantripmancer
Kraj
mmod
Nom_Anor
ProphetKing
TACKY
vezokpiraka
With 18 players alive, it is 10 votes to lynch. The deadline for Day 1 is 4 pm Eastern on Wednesday, September 8th.
/barn this
unvote, Vote Nom Anor
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
Anyone mind saying what the problem with this is?
Vote Nom
Barn everyhting seppel said.
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By barn everything seppel said, you mean to barn:
Makes sense to me.
Nom's last post is a legitimate complaint, but then again I'm not a big fan of barning. I don't like that he's knocking people for a similar reason that I voted him for. He voted to put Tordeck at L-2 to force a claim, which I think is actually a worse reason to vote someone then barning.
Ged: I guess I'm going to have to just not get the in-jokes. Kind of mean of you to answer me with another one. Funny though, lol.
Mod: Just a note that Vibebox unvoted me in his last post.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/blog.php?u=52729
What the ☺☺☺☺...
Yes, I very much want you to go through and do that, please.
(nit-pick: I think it was Orko.)
I agree with you about Cantripmancer and PK, but not about Seppel. Can you point out to me what it is you like about the latter?
You're right that from a mod-perspective Vezok's role is much more intriguing on a scum, and I do have a personal reason I'm interested in watching him. We'll see about that one later.
Or maybe sooner than later:
Hello, really terrible vote; considering Seppel said nothing at all. You can't even try to sell this as understanding the logic behind the vote; it's clear you're barning for barning's sake. I don't like the wagon at all, anyway.
@Nacho: Just so we're all clear - you do not have any assurances about Vezok's alignment, correct?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Basically every post of his that has content (maybe half a dozen) look like townie thinking to me and overall his play is about as pro-town as I've ever seen from him. I'd be more specific but it seemed silly to point two two dozen things and say "good question", "I agree with this", "tone strikes me as townie Seppel", etc.
On Nom's wagon I'm rather meh. I greatly dislike the post he's being voted over, but I'm just not feeling it.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Sucking up to me is a good way to make me think you're town, though. I suspect you know this.
I would like to hear more from Tilde and Vezok.
Obvscum play is obvious. I'm not sure why Seppel seems to be questioning it.
Right now Cantrip and Nom are my prime scum candidates. Vezok's still iffy and tordeck's sliding more into the town column (I think if he were scum his buddies would have tried to get him to correct the flavor on his claim using their daytalk.)
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
Um, excuse me? I seem to be doing what?
Unvote, vote Tilde.
I somewhat understand where you're coming from here in the switch, but I'd like you to clarify it some more anyway.
...
Oh yeah, this was a pretty bad post by Zionite. There's not really any defensible reason to vote for Nacho, let alone "confirm" it.
...
Probably town =/= Confirmed Town
Not good to blur those two lines.
I'm not really seeing what you're saying you see here, Seppel.
Cantrip is Redundantly Redundant
This post has way too many points that have already been brought up recently or simply parts that are fluff and didn't really serve any meaning.
Example:
etc.
I don't see why most of that couldn't have been reduced into a paragraph. It's not like it happened so long ago we needed a mass refresher on points recently traveled. It's like you just wanted to justify your vote by throwing a lot of crap on the wall and say, "Look I wrote a lot of words guys I am right."
Details?
Ugh. I can't stand this attitude.
If you act scummy, both town and mafia are going to vote for you - town misguided by your bad play and opportunistic mafia taking potshots. There's always value looking back at voting records, sure. But don't act like you're some kind of martyr who got mercilessly beat down by a throng of mafia goons - your own actions are plenty shady.
I'd also like to see you elaborate on your "DYH is scum" position.
Essentially the definition of bandwagon - "I agree with everything everyone else said."
I actually thought he was implying that he would explode upon claiming because of the second sentence - "I do I claim I still die just in a different way" + "So I'm going to do what I can to prolong the day as much as I can." That, and doctor claims typically doesn't mean the day is going to instantly end and prevent us from analyzing a wagon.
This was extremely insightful.
"Look guys I'm so town because I am sad about things that are bad for the town."
Has Tordeck's play shown much sanity here?
Wait, that vote had more than just "fun" spite behind it? I was actually talking more about the Zionite and Tordeck stuff but I guess that wasn't the clearest post I ever wrote.
*shrug* That's true for most players, I think. Probably one of my biggest failings is thinking a player is town because they agree with me a lot (and vice versa).
This point, which I happen to agree with, strongly suggests scummy behavior from falconn. Why no follow up from you? This same post contains stronger pokes against players for weaker tells.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Seriously? It was a response to Falkonn's assertion that if there was another doc, counterclaiming was the best action for him to take. I said, "I disagree," and proceeded to explain why. How is that not "in the context of"?
Or it could be me identifying the internal conflict of seeing flavor that doesn't make sense and adhering to my standard of not lynching an un-cc'd power role.
I guess I can see where you're coming from. I just always saw Harry as a combatant rather than a protector.
Given time to consider, very unlikely. If nothing else, claiming your spell is "shell" when you're HP is the crappiest falseclaim ever, guaranteed to attract attention.
Thank you for the content.
That's how I play. I'm not often one to just barn; I like to do the research, and if I'm going to reread a player, I'm going to post my thoughts on him when I do.
Perhaps it was because your images got removed that I'm confused, but what was the point of posting these?
@ Nom: I disagree with your assertion that if there's another doc, he should counterclaim immediately. Please explain why you think it's the best play.
The Family
As you can surmise, I did not finish this re-read. Not at all. I was on I do believe Page 10, and near the end, I was getting tired and my mental functioning was not quite as sharp, no sirree. I just hit submit with what I had and figured I'd go from there later.
I also just don't value that tell as highly you do. My experience offsite is that there is a fair percentage players, mostly newer, who do like to go around crying about the town's misfortune. Now you and I, Kraj, know being emotionless is to our advantage. (We also aware that respecting other people and agreeing with them will play to their ego and make them think you are town.)
It's something I generally note for the larger picture (I'm big at looking at a framework of a player's actions in the general scheme of things at large), but I don't policy lynch over it or anything. Perhaps my lack of love for the tell stems back to 2005 when I stole Jeeptells from Mafiascum and proceeded to triumphantly march into MPFG with the "Mafia Gospel" to discover there, culturally, pretty much everyone cried over the doctor/cop dying and I was actually made fun of.
The tell you probably think I overvalue is the one on Cantrip - saying a great deal while saying a great deal of nothing, simply because lurking and non-contributing to mafia victory is a common occurrence where I used to play mafia, so naturally active lurking became mafia Satan. Of course, I'm aware I overvalue it. Here, anyway. That's the joy of plowing into new virgin lands.
That wasn't my criticism - I wasn't complaining that you wrote a long, introspective post. (That would be extremely hypocritical.) I was pointing out your research had already been pointed out and you were essentially dissecting the already known or saying little in the process of doing that, i.e. that you made a post that looked like it contributed a lot with evidence but it really wasn't almost anything new or helpful.
:confuse2: Ok, let's see if I have this correct:
1) I agree with you that Nom is being scummy enough to warrant a vote.
2) Your response to that is "what the sheep", and then you ask for an explanation.
(I read that as you questioning the reasoning behind my vote)
3) I give it and you switch votes to me?
<boggle>
How exactly does that chain of events make you discount your own read on a player?
(Actually I have an idea about it, but that trail leads WAY off the normal cognitive map)
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
That was a lot of response with a lot of non-pertinent details (coffee, keyboard stiffness, etc.).
Oh. Well, I guess that's another byproduct of how I play: to ensure that I'm working off my own opinion and not just following others, I do my own PoV.
Fos: Tilde for thinking even for a second that Seppel's cognitive map is anywhere close to normal.
1. The cop is a stronger role than the cop.
2. It is usually the right play for the cop to come out with a guilty investigation as soon as possible.
3. Therefore, the doc outing his or her self for a guilty investigation should be the right play.
Please explain why you made this vote.
@Nom: I presume you meant Cop is a stronger role than Doc in line 1. While I might not come out with a guilty result right away as an unclaimed cop (game state and likeliness of a daykill would dictate my play), I understand the point you're making; I agree that a 1-1 trade with a false doc claim to kill scum is a winner. To add, particularly on day 1, and considering that the false-claimer could have an ability of his own, makes it even more appealing.
That said, there is a logical argument to be made for the "real doc" to stay hidden and obviously Tordeck (if lying) would be exposed upon his (real doc's) death. That being the doc can continue to work, as opposed to being locked up by the scum RB, if one exists. However, even that scenario leaves investigative roles the freedom to work, and while unexposed, isn't a bad situation at all.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Moreso than what DYH mentioned (although I concur with his points, too), there's a significant difference between cop and doc in that if the cop dies unrevealed, the mod-confirmed information that he's received dies with him. Docs normally have no such confirmed info; the revelation of their role is the totality of the information they can impart to the game. Therefore, imo, especially day 1, doc shouldn't counterclaim because there is more benefit to their hidden protection than in the removal of the scum. That's not to say that the reveal should delay until lylo (which I think someone mentioned): that's just asking for trouble, as if the first doc is "real" and a good-appearing scum decides to gambit a CC late game, you don't want that happening when the game is on the line.
That a revealed doc adds a layer of protection to investigative roles is pertinent, but is less valuable than the double-layer protection of an unknown doctor adding the extra insulation.
The three people who are arguing about this thing are
Tilde - Don't kill any more docs please.
Seppel - .....
Vezok - ...........
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Am I the only one who thinks all of his posts read like this and make me want to lynch him?
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
I have a bad habit of both sharing my emotions and thoughts that I have that I don't need to as town. PK was town with me in Shrek mafia, so ironically he should be able to confirm this. It's something that we talked about in that game. As a side note, I also have a problem with tunnel visioning sometimes.
No, I don't think educating people about what happened makes that vote any less of a "fun spite" vote. Could you explain to me how you think there's more to it then that? I decided at the end of Shrek mafia that BG was going to be my "random vote" the next time we played a game together.
Thanks for the clarification on your nom votes Vez/Tilde. I think if you had explained yourselves that way before instead of mindlessly barning people wouldn't have made such a big deal about things.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/blog.php?u=52729
I always get excited to see a PKchu post.
Also, a mod edited your post, PKchu.
If I recall, Tordeck was voting or at least accusing Vez while at the same time saying that he doesn't think Vez is scum.
That's normal for Cantrip. He's being more aggressive than I remember, but still WORDS WORDS WORDS I HAVE TO SPELL OUT EVERY SINGLE POSSIBILITY IN INCREDIBLE DETAIL.
I was thinking this in the back of my head, but I imagine PKchu wants to glean responses first. Or he took so long that he couldn't finish. He's very thorough.
Seems it did its job.
I rescind my previous statement.
1) First you /barn me when all I did was call out Nom in the laziest way possible. Vez does too.
2) This brings up alarm bells.
3) You act very self-aware. You say I'm questioning "it."
4) I ask you what "it" is. I want an answer. I vote you.
5) You respond by not answering my question, and instead you ask me a question that puts words in my mouth.
I have not discounted my read on Nom. I am questioning you.
To pressure Tilde.
Please explain what Nom said that makes him obvsscum.
Deleted one, too. First there was his post as it stands, then he was warned for image leeching and the image was removed, then he explained that the site was a photo-bucket like site and didn't understand the warning, and finally the original post was restored and the second deleted.
Just in case there was confusion.
*Goes back to lurking*
*Notably doesn't unvote*
Just for you DYH. Starting with what I didn't like about tordeck.
It starts here. His theory doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because vez says that they will both die if vez dies. He has no reason to lie about that, so we can presume it to be true. Even if vez was lying about nacho being town, we will lynch two scum at once if vez winds up being scum. The fact he is feeling more comfortable about his theory because of WIFOM really made me suspicious of him.
I really didn't like this. Townies should never challenge someone to vote for them. The "Vote me I dare you!" mentality makes no sense as town, the bluff only works as scum. Calling yourself town in the same post only hurts him. Also, note the defeatism here.
And here is his explanations that didn't suffice to me.
There is no reason for vez to lie about them dying together. The fact he insisted on it didn't help his case.
As opposed to trying to stop the fast wagon on him, he makes jokes about scum jumping on it. Which won't really do much to slow the wagon down, and it didn't.
Also:
Hi, I'm Seppel.
DYH wanted to know why I was suspicious and what of his explanations I didn't find sufficient. The conclusion was that I voted for him.
Also, Hi! Don't conventional Mafia theories get thrown out the window with you? And I mean that in a good way.
It just felt like you stopped in the middle of your explanation, that's all. It sounds fine to me now.
Yes.
I have a different way of thinking about the game of Mafia compared to most players. As I've said before, my priorities are, in order:
1) Having fun
2) Survival
3) Winning
Having fun is most important to me. A game needs to be fun. Survival extends the fun of the game.
Winning... meh. If the game's getting boring or not fun, then I'll get off my ass and win the game.
Because the non-pertinent details were meant to be funny. Maybe I'm not funny when I'm tired.
Refresh my memory. Are you referring to the LVP thing?
A lot. You should jump in.
Let's lynch someone and have more fun.
Preferably don't lynch me or sepel.
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Make love to me, Vezok, so that I may learn your turgid ways.
Huh? Why exactly do you think he needed to be pressured?
Aww, just for me? Thanks!
You can't think of a reason Vez would lie about that? (Obviously this is now a moot point, but I think pulling doc protection would be a good one.) I'm OK with you having problems with that post, though, it was littered with them.
Yep, agreed on the challenge point; obviously the defeatism makes sense in light of his claim, though, but again - hindsight.
Talked about that above briefly, but OK.
I don't really think he was joking, here, though. I think he really believed his wagon was scum-driven and is paranoid about my play having been his scum buddy in Highlander.
Really just wanted to get a feel for your thought processes, thanks for indulging me.
Unvote
Quit being useless.
But funny, you two are in my top three.
@Nacho: In case you missed it, I asked you a question about Vezok I'd like you to answer.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Nom_Anor(3) - falkonn, ~Tilde~, vezokpiraka
Cantripmancer(2) - dropkickdude, Ged
tordeck(2) - nacho wizard, Anaklusmos
nacho wizard(2) - Zionite, tordeck
falkonn(1) - VibeBox
~Tilde~(1) - Seppel
Not voting:
Cantripmancer
DYH
Kraj
mmod
Nom_Anor
ProphetKing
TACKY
With 18 players alive, it is 10 votes to lynch. The deadline for Day 1 is 4 pm Eastern on Wednesday, September 8th.