*Sigh*, since it's only ten posts I'll do it, but give me a little bit to recharge myself so to speak. I'll still be posting but I'm just not ready for non "in the moment" analysis for this stretch in time.
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Can someone who is familiar with the site please do a PBPA on him?
How am I scum? Is it because of that suggestion about the poem? Well, that's the way my mind works. Have you ever read the Redwall books? There's a lot of stuff involving similar riddles etc in them. I read those books so many times when I was younger (and still do from time to time) and whenever I came across a puzzle in a book I hadn't yet read or hadn't read in ages I would challenge myself to solve the riddle if possible before I read the answer. I'm hardwired ro look at things that way. I looked at it and the first thing I noticed was that it talked about a total of six numbers and there were six rows of dashes. I couldn't figure out what exactly was the purpose of the dashes/blanks, so that was as far as I got.
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The main reason why this makes more sense as the kind of item town would start out with is because scum have no reason to keep their thoughts written down for others to find. That's just another way for them to get caught in a lie and found out. It makes perfect sense as a vanilla's item, though, because it keeps the vanilla busy during the Night phases of the game and encourages him to reread, and when the vanilla dies the player who killed/hammered him gets to see what was going on in the vanilla's head. This is the kind of item that we want to fall into an investigation role's hands.
If people still want to lynch this guy for some reason, I would like to hammer.
@burboy: kpaca rarely posts PBPAs. The last time I saw him post one was (naturally) against me in Basic #2, over a year ago.
EWP: kpaca must like you a lot as town.
KrackShott post 11: Asks why he's scum. Talks about Redwall and the Book of Changes.
Conclusion: KrackShott has been avoiding issues with players when he can.
@burboy: I endorse this product or service and would like to know more from KrackShott in particular about post #8 and why he hasn't taken a stance on ANYTHING.
Conclusion: KrackShott has been avoiding issues with players when he can.
Agreed, I am especially grateful that you linked me back his 8th post where he literally becomes the fence re: Promatim. It's good to be able to trust the Seppel-gut.
* AsianInvasion adds KrackShott to "Leaning Scum" list.
Also, any chance I can still call dibs? I'll pass the favor (book) down the line.
"Something bothers me about Seppel's claim. Fu Xi lived roughly 4000 years ago. It's now the twentieth century (isn't it?)."
"I don't doubt that he is who he says he is, but I'm wondering how likely he is to be Town."
"Also, his item is a book. In the Cthulhu mythos, books have a tendency to make you go insane when you read them."
"And Seppel was the player who seemed interested in insanity."
"As such, my vote is staying on Seppel."
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<Limited Clan>
Agreed, I am especially grateful that you linked me back his 8th post where he literally becomes the fence re: Promatim. It's good to be able to trust the Seppel-gut.
* AsianInvasion adds KrackShott to "Leaning Scum" list.
Also, any chance I can still call dibs? I'll pass the favor (book) down the line.
1) I don't really trust you.
2) Now that the book's out of the bag, calling dibs is pointless.
Agreed, I am especially grateful that you linked me back his 8th post where he literally becomes the fence re: Promatim. It's good to be able to trust the Seppel-gut.
* AsianInvasion adds KrackShott to "Leaning Scum" list.
Also, any chance I can still call dibs? I'll pass the favor (book) down the line.
On second thought, unvote, vote AsianInvasion.
I claim, you unvote, and suddenly we're best pals? What the hell?
Something is very wrong. I guarantee there's one or two scum in the set of [Promatim, AsianInvasion, KrackShott].
AsianInvasion agrees about KrackShott and votes him. He also wants my book. And there's the mass-claim idea. But that doesn't match up with getting my book right away.
KrackShott is on the fence about Promatim.
Promatim voted Burboy and backed down at the slightest bit of pressure.
Conclusion: KrackShott & Promatim scumbuddies 4 life. AsianInvasion is planning something but I don't know what.
Unvote, vote KrackShott. I want to lynch KrackShott & Promatim and I would appreciate them posting more so they can give away their scumbuddies.
"Something bothers me about Seppel's claim. Fu Xi lived roughly 4000 years ago. It's now the twentieth century (isn't it?)."
"I don't doubt that he is who he says he is, but I'm wondering how likely he is to be Town."
"Also, his item is a book. In the Cthulhu mythos, books have a tendency to make you go insane when you read them."
"And Seppel was the player who seemed interested in insanity."
"As such, my vote is staying on Seppel."
This is a lousy argument. You say you have a problem with Fu Xi being alive for 4000 years but don't doubt the claimed name? Fascinating. When Seppel passes along the book whoever gets it can verify the claim; I find it unlikely that Seppel made all those modkill-related posts as a gambit but it will be simple to prove regardless.
You say you have a problem with Fu Xi being alive for 4000 years but don't doubt the claimed name? Fascinating.
<nods>
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<Limited Clan>
Conclusion: KrackShott has been avoiding issues with players when he can.
Honestly it's even much worse than that. It's not an issue of avoiding issues so much as he is actively non-contributing. He shows up to post things the mean absolutely nothing, leaves, and then comes back to do the same thing. No discussion, almost nothing but flavor speculation, which is a great tell anyways because that's what scum analysis actually is, and not even the slightest hint of commitment on, well, anything at all. Eleven posts in and there's no content, and he's been here lurking in plain sight. Cases do not get much easier than this.
"Something bothers me about Seppel's claim. Fu Xi lived roughly 4000 years ago. It's now the twentieth century (isn't it?)."
"I don't doubt that he is who he says he is, but I'm wondering how likely he is to be Town."
"Also, his item is a book. In the Cthulhu mythos, books have a tendency to make you go insane when you read them."
"And Seppel was the player who seemed interested in insanity."
"As such, my vote is staying on Seppel."
You have done no scum hunting other than agreeing with an old point I made about seppel and then using flavor of all things as a justification for that vote. Make an actual case.
You have done no scum hunting other than agreeing with an old point I made about seppel and then using flavor of all things as a justification for that vote. Make an actual case.
It's not flavour - see above comments to Dagger.
Cases are found, not made. I concede it was you who caught Seppel, but I have nothing to add at this time.
I will pursue AsianInvasion further in future, but now is not the correct time. Unless information comes to light which makes Seppel look better, I want to lynch him today.
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<Limited Clan>
It's a matter of statistics. The key point is that he was taken to L-2 for other reasons. What are the chances he just happens to be an immortal?
Other reasons like what? You haven't mentioned them, you having agreed with certain points against seppel, so to just say well, there's a reason he's going to be lynched doesn't cut it. That is straight bandwagoning.
"As I say, I have nothing to add to what has been written in the thread. I decline to spend half an hour compiling a summary for your entertainment."
"If agreeing with points made by others is 'bandwagonning' then yes, I am bandwagonning."
"Are you suggesting that if I have no original analysis to add that I should not vote for him?"
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<Limited Clan>
Did you just miss the whole AsianInvasion // KrackShott // Promatim love triangle? Or are you intentionally handwaving it and throwing out "OH ASIANINVASION IS SUSPICIOUS AND NOBODY ELSE IS WORTH MENTIONING"?
So go ahead and just tell me right now why you're voting for him.
"Because he appeared to have made a wording slip in which he revealed that information private to him makes some reference to the sanity mechanic beyond that in the public rules."
"It therefore seems to me that the balance of probability is that he is a scum with a sanity-depleting ability of some kind."
"...which I now suspect to be the book he carries."
<raises finger>
"As a side note, where you highlight the phrase 'other reasons' in my post above, let it be clearly understood that these are the reason of all ten voters, not only myself."
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"As a side note, where you highlight the phrase 'other reasons' in my post above, let it be clearly understood that these are the reason of all ten voters, not only myself."
"I have just listed mine. Right there. How am I supposed to speak for the others?"
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"As a thought experiment, address the question yourself. Given that we have a suspect chosen independently of his claim, what are the chances that he just happens to be the odd one out?"
"That's a rhetorical question, but you see my point. It would be a big coincidence, no?"
"It's like the police chase up a list of murder suspects and find that one of them just happens to have taken a plane to Rio the previous day. Sure, maybe he's just on holiday."
Quote from burboy »
Other people are voting for him so he must be doing something wrong.
"No, you have misunderstood entirely. My point is that he did not reach L-2 because of his claim. He reached L-2 and then claimed."
"Do you really think his claim is fine? Do you see nothing problematic there?"
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<Limited Clan>
OK, let's keep this really simple. Two questions. 1) Prior to Seppel's claim, did you have any reason to believe the characters in the game would be drawn from diverse time periods? 2) In view of your answer to the first question, how do you view Seppel's claim?
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<Limited Clan>
OK, let's keep this really simple. Two questions. 1) Prior to Seppel's claim, did you have any reason to believe the characters in the game would be drawn from diverse time periods? 2) In view of your answer to the first question, how do you view Seppel's claim?
1) This is fishing
2) It's flavor which is weak to the point of useless
3) This has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that other people are voting for him
1) This is fishing
2) It's flavor which is weak to the point of useless
3) This has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that other people are voting for him
It is not fishing, I'm asking for your personal viewpoint. I've already explained twice why it isn't about flavour. I've been exceedingly patient with you, so please answer properly.
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<Limited Clan>
What exactly is so convincing about that supposed 'confusion' from The Muffin Man? Explain it to me completely, please. Also...
@Seppel
Let me confirm -- your rolename has a title?
@The Muffin Man
Here's a question -- what exactly do you think of your own play in this game? Given that at one point you apparently blow up indignantly at kpaca re:Seppel and him thinking you are scum due to your blatant fence-sitting on the matter; but at another point you respond to someone saying that you should forget everything you learned at your previous mafia site by saying 'I know, I should'.
Oh, and I was the first person to vote you seriously. Why kpaca and not me, hm? Or were you that focused on digging up dirt on kpaca?
@Emo_Pinata
You may or may not be right about sanity being a global mechanic -- but if it is a global mechanic, and, as you say, both town and scum are liable to have someone with a low sanity number, what conceivable purpose would a sanity number claim (which you called for) serve?
Will re-read Promatim. Not convinced on AsianInvasion. KrackShott hasn't done enough either way to say anything, which means he needs to actually do something in thread. seratonin is highly suspect.
Also, Some One is in this game and not doing anything. This is worthy of notice.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
I love multi-posting, but I got warned for posting images so I'll just condense this into one or two posts. Sorry for the tl;dr crowd, I'll bold parts I think are important, ok?
Nacho Wizard - You're really milking my word fart where I called burboy mafia instead of scum, aren't you? Is there a reason you want me to care about burboy? He stopped being interesting ten pages ago. You seem to be looking for emotional responses from people instead of rational ones. Not liking your posts.
Emotional responses are how you catch scum? Like, that and lies is 90% of the time how scum get lynched. Also, I'm not liking your face.
Quote from Promatim »
Direct questions will be answered. You're right, though, I'm not concerned at all.
You aren't really pulling the "please form your attack in the form of a question" nonsense, are you? I'd appreciate it very much if you would respond to my posts about you, thanks in advance.
Quote from Fenris »
Nacho: I've seen more mature children then what I get from his posts which as I said before seems way off base considering. He is good at eliciting emotional responses though, because I gotta say he did irritate the hell out of me in that first set of posts he sent at me and seems to do so to everyone after me.
Ok, clearly there is a section of players that can't handle jokes and feel like I'm annoying/mean/whatever. I apologize. Please don't ignore my analysis because of personal dislike - I have played in nearly 50 games of mafia and know what I'm doing. If you guys promise to carefully consider my posts, I promise not to make fun of anybody unless they really, really deserve it.
@kpaca: in one post, could you outline all the stuff Seppel has done that's scummy? I'm missing the meta part here and I'm not seeing anything all that scummy from him.
Quote from Cyouni »
Okay. Not the best habit to get into, but...okay.
Nah, it's way better because my thoughts can flow and my impressions of the thread are genuine.
Quote from Cyouni »
Okay. So where in that post did it show that he thought burboy was scum?
I thought he was calling burboy a bad player of the game mafia, which read to me like he really wanted to vote him. Don't put words in my mouth.
Quote from Cyouni »
Once again, please point out where the misrep is.
I'm not sarcastic to just the people misrep'ing me? Anyway, the misrep was way back when kpaca accused me of 'grilling' mtg monkey. Get with reading the thread.
Quote from Cyouni »
It does show why he asked the question.
No, it doesn't. He says essentially 'mafia players usually give their opinion' as his reason. That says nothing about why he wanted to know. I promised I'd tell you my thoughts when he (ever? Pretty please?) answers, please drop it for now.
Quote from Talor »
Oh really? Real life doesn't mean anything? That I'm job-hunting, trying to get over the death of my friend, in another mafia game and two play-by-post D&D games on another forum means nothing, that I'm scum because I was tired as hell, and I didn't have the energy to re-read at 11:30 at night, so I said I'd do it tomorrow? That's really bloody pretentious of you. I've completed all of 1 games of mafia so I'm still trying to adjust to multiple games at once. You know what? Screw you. I'm going to continue to 'lurk' because I don't care about putting myself foreward so everyone can see me. I'm going to try and view things as they go and in the bigger picture, to try to find out if somebody is scummy. I'm still not good enough to put together all the images of the game into one big picture.
This is an epic freak out. Have you ever been scum before? Scum lurk, dude, and I'm calling you on it. Townies want to catch scum no matter their circumstances. I once was in Hawaii, and it would take 5 minutes to make a short post with the terrible internet I had, and I still slogged through the thread because I wanted to win. Don't throw your life at me. If you have real time commitment issues, get replaced. Don't use them as an excuse to lurk to the endgame while making us feel bad because your life is sucky right now. Sheesh.
I have no idea what you are talking about with the images and picture stuff, but guys, note that Talore is openly admitting he doesn't want us to be able to judge his behavior, so he's gonna lurk.
Quote from Talore »
And I really don't like how when I log off you acuse me of not going to re-read, because I'm going to do that right now with both games. See you all in a couple hours with my thoughts.
Well, I'm sorry, I'm sure you will deliver us some brilliant, involved analysis that covers everything that has -
Quote from Talore »
So, I learned I have a really really short attention span when I've a headache.
You've got to be kidding me. Well, at least you aren't going to mindlessly hop on the largest bandwagon given that you -
Quote from Talore »
At first I didn't like the Seppel wagon because I felt it was just a meta arguement. But then I actually RTFT and looking over Seppel's original reaction... that was really bad.
Vote Seppel
...Wow. Wait, I thought you didn't read the thread? Weren't you just complaining about it? What, did you JUST read the part about Seppel? Please tell me what was 'really bad'.
Well, the only way that could be scummier is if you were hyper aware of how close you are to lynching him, rig-
Really I have no doubt Seppel could make up that claim, so for me it came down to whether or not the role he claimed was something i wanted us to be without. We do however need to decide who hammers if we do lynch Seppel, because of that item.
Oh wow, the lyncher gets his item, right? That is a wonderfully elegant role, that person gets basically his diary? Seppel, post your notes in that thread, this is def the purpose of your item. DEFINITELY a town role, imo.
Quote from kpaca »
I would still like to see Seppel buried but if not I will switch focus and here's a hint: It won't be toward promatim (who I will refer to as primetime from now on; OH YEAH!), nor TMM.
If I understand you, you're stance is that both of them will be easier to read on later days? For the record, I'm still for a Promatim lynch barring him answering some of the posts about him in a way I really like.
Quote from AI »
If people still want to lynch this guy for some reason, I would like to hammer.
This... is too scummy to be scummy, right? What on earth.
Quote from Seppel »
Something is very wrong. I guarantee there's one or two scum in the set of [Promatim, AsianInvasion, KrackShott]
Can I barn this opinion? I'm thinking there is definitely one and it's 50/50 there is another.
Quote from TeknoLink »
Hmmph. I'm not sure whether I believe you, Seppel, but I'm willing to for now as you claimed and did what I asked.
Unvote
Too... many... scummy dudes... must... focus...
I'll come back to you tomorrow, dude.
Aaaand I'm caught up.
Here is some bonus analysis and my opinions on players so far:
Emo_Pinata - Been pretty aggressive, I feel like he is genuinely scum hunting even though I've disagreed with almost all of his reads. In particular I remember a post where he made some logical leaps that showed actual thought. Leaning slightly town.
Some One - Who? Post moar
Talore - Was lurking and posting very little. I called him on it, and he freaked out on me, admitting that he doesn't want to post more because he's busy and doesn't want us to be able to read him. I've never seen somebody so blatantly admit being scum before. Also, he promised to reread, got indignant when I said he wouldn't, and it looks like he really didn't. He bandwagoned onto Seppel in a very self-conscious way, vaguely barning a reason that happened awhile back. Just "he looks really bad, put him 2 away see ya guys". Would be ecstatic to lynch him.
Promatim - His posts read really distant to me. Like, he is posting opinions without saying anything new and I think he is trying pretty hard to look like he's contributing without making much of a real effort. He was dismissive on votes on him, refusing to respond. I think he's been lurking through the pressure on him, hoping that Seppel gets lynched and we forget about him. Strongly reading as scum.
desCoures - Called me annoying, what a jerk. Post moar.
burboy - Is 99% likely town. Have you recognized me yet, nub?
Fenris - Kind of freaked on me, but lately he is reading as more newish town. He is newer, right? If he's scum, he regained his composure remarkably fast.
Calvin - I've liked his posts and thoughts so far, but I get the impression he is a strong player. Don't know enough about him to rule out cagey scum yet, but if I had to take a side I would be leaning a little town on him.
Seppel - His behavior is less scummy than people have made out and I think his claim is super strong in his favor. Big points in his favor that he kept looking for scum even as he was being pressed into claim range.
TeknoLink - His posts are super strange. Really uncertain, I need to pay attention to his earlier stuff when I eventually do a reread.
AlphaInsidious - I can't remember any of his posts really. Post moar
AsianInvasion - I feel like he is posting with an agenda. I'm not sure exactly what to point to, I just feel a motivation and pushing in his posts that make me thinks he is actively trying for something. There has also been a few really odd comments from him. I would say this is how a fairly experienced player acts as scum, but I'm not sure enough to want him dead yet.
kpaca - He is either strongly town or an amazing scum player. I'm leaning heavily towards the former until something gives me a reason to reconsider.
bateleur - I have a hard time making myself read his posts. I don't believe he has an actual PR, but I'm not sure what that means. Neutral read.
Dagger - I've liked most of his posts so far and thought they were pretty insightful. Please give us more of them.
KrackShott - Want to see the pbpa and kpaca/burboys analysis of him, but if Seppel's descriptions of his posts were accurate, I think I'd be okay lynching him.
Monkey_Playing_MTG - Lurking and avoiding talking to me. MOAR POSTS
Cyouni - Strongly engaging the thread and pressing a lot. From my discussion with him, I felt like he was town really trying to figure me out. I guess I'm leaning slightly town? Like, really slightly.
SGT_Chubbz - his interaction with burboy is pretty awful. He's not contributing much otherwise. I can't remember his early posts, would love to see a pbpa of him. I might do one tomorrow if I have time.
The_Muffin_Man - 99.9% newb town. Call it gut.
seratonin - One of the most rational posters itt. I remember getting good vibes from him early on, but I can't point to anything specific that he's done at the moment. Definitely a player I will pay more attention to on a reread.
It is not fishing, I'm asking for your personal viewpoint. I've already explained twice why it isn't about flavour. I've been exceedingly patient with you, so please answer properly.
my god
sure I don't see any reason to believe characters could not be from different time periods
that is flavor, it's flavor, it's basing it on the flavor of the character, not even the role it's the flavor, IT'S FLAVOR SAYING IT'S NOT FLAVOR DOESN'T MAKE IT NOT FLAVOR BECAUSE IT'S FLAVOR
I got an OK to post this, which I have been told isn't a riddle or poem, but a quote from the Book of Changes:
Chun - Difficulty at the Beginning:
<snip>
I thought Seppel got in trouble for revealing the shape of his role PM again. He said earlier that he didn't read his mile long role PM, and with this poem it's obvious that he's not scum. I figured he just let it slip his role PM was extra long, and there's onyl sso many reasons for that. unvote
You may or may not be right about sanity being a global mechanic -- but if it is a global mechanic, and, as you say, both town and scum are liable to have someone with a low sanity number, what conceivable purpose would a sanity number claim (which you called for) serve?
It really wouldn't be much benefit to catching scum, but I felt it would be a safe exploration of the sanity mechanic as well as giving something to explore. Not only would everyone now know how sane they are, but we knew who was at risk all without someone having to cough up how the sanity value gets modified to begin with and driving someone insane by it.
----- vote Talore nacho's posted the same feelings I have for him before I did, though I could get behind Asian or seratonin.
I thought Seppel got in trouble for revealing the shape of his role PM again.
<looks thoughtful>
Possibly, but he did so in the same post where he talked about having broken the rules. Do you think he broke two?
Quote from Emo_Pinata »
He said earlier that he didn't read his mile long role PM, and with this poem it's obvious that he's not scum.
How do you conclude that? The I-Ching is publically available online. Are you just impressed that he remembered to be consistent with his own earlier post? Or do you have some theory as to why an I-Ching entry would be pasted into his role PM?
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<Limited Clan>
Okay, after doing a little bit of research on the six dashes, they are trigrams.
The first, like mentioned in the caption next to it, is zhen, The Arousing.
The following one is kan, The Abysmal.
The only interesting thing to mention on either of these is that the first has the attribute of inciting movement, which I suppose makes sense because of the town role. However, the second is the attribute "dangerous." Now take that for what its worth, and I have no idea what it means. I doubt it means anything.
I apologize for not posting more, but my schedule precludes from posting at regular intervals. I have been keeping up with the thread, but sadly as of now all I have is my vote to offer.
I'll help in anyway I can, but I hope you guys understand I won't have any brilliant insight to offer, at least not at the moment.
I thought Seppel got in trouble for revealing the shape of his role PM again. He said earlier that he didn't read his mile long role PM, and with this poem it's obvious that he's not scum. I figured he just let it slip his role PM was extra long, and there's onyl sso many reasons for that. unvote
You unvoted Seppel for his poem flavor? I thought the reason you went after him was because you got the same feelings as kpaca about Seppel's pay-less-attention-as-scum-trait? And kpaca was still interested in Seppel despite that.
Lol. I definitely did re-read, that's the reason I saw the kpaca-Seppel interaction in the first place...
If you have real time commitment issues, get replaced.
I wasn't going to put that burden on rianalnn and whoever would be obligated to replace me. If it gets worse, I will ask. Now doesn't seem to be the appropriate time, what with you trying to drive a wagon on me.
note that Talore is openly admitting he doesn't care about us to be able to judge his behavior,
fix'd
I also lol'd when he said hyper aware. I used the votecounts as reference points when re-reading, so now I'm hyper-aware, because I re-read instead of... whatever the hell he said I did. So, he thinks I jumped on without thought, so now I'll show him why he's wrong.
Town Seppel looks for little things to pick apart, and as such has to read every bit of every post.
Scum Seppel does not read every post thoroughly. While the above isn't the type of blatant mistake I'd ever make as scum, or someone like Dagger would make as scum, it is something Seppel might gloss over. He's a bit hasty in his scum fervor, I know, I've accomplished awesome wins while on his scum team.
Also, Seppel plays in such a way long term analysis is impossible. You have to look for slips that show his intent. Above is one.
Originally I discounted the Seppel wagon because I thought it was just a meta-arguement, which I don't trust that much. I latched onto this post.
But re-reading, and seeing this post in isolation, where he just aquired a single vote on him, that's a totally inappropriate response given the circumstances.
Eat me. I'm NOT reading every post thoroughly. When AsianInvasion said he agreed about something I said, I stopped to look at who it was, and proceeded to be confused when I saw that it was AsianInvasion. I have NEVER seen AI act this way. So yeah. I don't know what to think of AI and I'm not at all interested in reading what he has to say.
This is right after the above quote. I must have mindlessly jumped onto this wagon like the other nine people.
Since it appears likely that I will need to clarify. English really is my primary language. My spelling and grammar just suck thats all. Even with the spell check it can not be helped (and I do use spell check). Also what was wrong with that sentence I can't see anything grammatically incorrect about it barring that it appears in choppy thought?
And second this is indeed my first game Mr. Pain in my backside. I havn't really any clue why me caring about random votes matters other than I can and do act however I feel in that 5 second period of time. The muffin man didn't seem scummy to me ever. Same for Cyouni although I havn't voted for him yet although it is on my mind.
Sweet, another group of people afraid to push the buttons ala inheritance, and I'm assuming we are on the track of non-team work ala every other recent town failure.
Also Talore you could read some games with mass claims.
As long as the newer players don't get in the way with their fencesitting it should be fine (i.e. "idk if we should do XYZ, I want to see what everyone else says first").
So what is our game plan? Day 1 mass claim? Day 1 Name claim? Claiming locks scum from changing their claim, etc. We can also just go after one person at a time but with 22, I'm not sure if that's handy.
I propose we make a scummy person insane instead of a volunteer. e.g. Muffin Man.
I understand the point that it is probably a bad idea to make a townie lose his insanity (re: the rules), but it's not directly inferable what the effect would be if a scum lost his insanity - could be bad for the town, bad for the scum, or bad for everyone. It's probably best to let it happen naturally and handle it after the fact.
No you aren't, you said that going after him is dumb because I won't be able to get him lynched.
It takes a certain type of "thing" to get a person lynched so early (like Kpaca & Seppel). I only actually read the first half thusfar, so I don't know what happened with that and its status currently, but it is those type of tells that develop early leads and can ultimately serve to get the game out of the random stage, and then real posts can be analyzed from then on.
ok so first you vote burboy w/e he is being antagonistic and opinionated that seems to be the de facto knee jerk response to that here. but then kpaca calls him town and you instantly back off and then get called on that. you act like you take a side here.
except, what are you really saying? not posting in a logical way for a good mafia player is a really long-winded way of still not taking a stance on how scummy you think he is. you are just saying his play sucks, but the fence sitting was your vote/unvote along with saying you have no idea if hes town or scum. either you say bad player here and are avoiding commenting on your read of him or you are substituting that like its a read. except if you were off the fence you would revote him imo
vote promatim
I wasn't sure about NW 'till this post, but I feel confident that he is town as a result of it.
So I was getting a really bad gut feeling on nacho wizard, so I went over his posts for as much of a pbpa as I could.
useless
useless
#1: Randomness is random.
#2: Second and third lines don't make sense.
#3: He didn't seem concerned with votes.
Once again, really screwed up logic. It isn't very obvious why you asked him and it did look like you were grilling him.
I don't think there's concrete evidence of scum, although the attitude may be a hint. I know I hate his playstyle.
It's weird how the downfall of this post comes after his latest and greatest post. To call many beginning posts useless is basically like calling a cake a cake. The cake is always there, but sometimes it's a special cake, like a cheesecake.
I agree with this. I also don't like how promatim goes out of his way to try and not hurt burboys feelings. I don't care for it when people do that. It seems to me people who are concerned with riling people up are concerned with getting into a confrontation with them.
Perhaps the lynches of certain people in certain fashions could cause loss of sanity... What do you guys think?
I feel like it'd be a very simplistic system, for the sheer fact that having many intricate rules would drive the mod out of his mind and cause confusion amongst the player base. I guess people could be "linked" somehow, whereby the deaths of others cause their own insanity problems.
Town Seppel looks for little things to pick apart, and as such has to read every bit of every post.
Scum Seppel does not read every post thoroughly. While the above isn't the type of blatant mistake I'd ever make as scum, or someone like Dagger would make as scum, it is something Seppel might gloss over. He's a bit hasty in his scum fervor, I know, I've accomplished awesome wins while on his scum team.
Also, Seppel plays in such a way long term analysis is impossible. You have to look for slips that show his intent. Above is one.
This relates to the whole cake/cheesecake thing I said, and relates to how you can't really make a solid case (re: AI) with something that isn't more telling so early on.
@Bat: My character was born in 187x. Is that in flavor with what you know of the setup?
<nods>
It is consistent, yes. That would mean you were alive during the first half of the 20th Century.
Private Mod Note
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--
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<Limited Clan>
You unvoted Seppel for his poem flavor? I thought the reason you went after him was because you got the same feelings as kpaca about Seppel's pay-less-attention-as-scum-trait? And kpaca was still interested in Seppel despite that.
Yeah, emo piniata is probably scum #2 if someone wants to do the legwork, I know right off the top of my head his voting this game is absolutely atrocious..
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How am I scum? Is it because of that suggestion about the poem? Well, that's the way my mind works. Have you ever read the Redwall books? There's a lot of stuff involving similar riddles etc in them. I read those books so many times when I was younger (and still do from time to time) and whenever I came across a puzzle in a book I hadn't yet read or hadn't read in ages I would challenge myself to solve the riddle if possible before I read the answer. I'm hardwired ro look at things that way. I looked at it and the first thing I noticed was that it talked about a total of six numbers and there were six rows of dashes. I couldn't figure out what exactly was the purpose of the dashes/blanks, so that was as far as I got.
Modern:
GRB Jund BRG
RBU Grixis Delver UBR
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes W
GRB Punishing Jund BRG
GUR Canadian Threshold RUG
Commander:
RUG Maelstrom Wanderer GUR
I buy it.
For reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fu_Xi & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Changes
EWP@KrackShott: You'll probably want to read the second link to figure out why "six" and "dashes" are relevant.
The main reason why this makes more sense as the kind of item town would start out with is because scum have no reason to keep their thoughts written down for others to find. That's just another way for them to get caught in a lie and found out. It makes perfect sense as a vanilla's item, though, because it keeps the vanilla busy during the Night phases of the game and encourages him to reread, and when the vanilla dies the player who killed/hammered him gets to see what was going on in the vanilla's head. This is the kind of item that we want to fall into an investigation role's hands.
If people still want to lynch this guy for some reason, I would like to hammer.
@burboy: kpaca rarely posts PBPAs. The last time I saw him post one was (naturally) against me in Basic #2, over a year ago.
EWP: kpaca must like you a lot as town.
man it's gonna be sweet
@Talore: If it has any significance, it's circumstantial. It's a quote from the Book of Changes.
@KrackShott: I love the Redwall books. Well, I loved them up to Marlfox. All the books after Marlfox were the same thing over and over again.
---
I can at least review posts.
KrackShott post 1: "I'm going to lurk."
KrackShott post 2: "I can be a dick. Also I dunno about TMM."
KrackShott post 3: Fenris speculation.
(Editor's note: I don't like Fenris's posts. Especially the one where he votes Nacho.)
KrackShott post 4: "I'm alive."
KrackShott post 5: Sanity spec, asking about Call of Cthulhu.
KrackShott post 6: Dumb sanity spec.
KrackShott post 7: Dumb sanity spec.
KrackShott post 8: Oh wow. It's like he knows Promatim is scum. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=5519006&postcount=205
KrackShott post 9: Asks why I'm scummy.
KrackShott post 10: Book of Changes spec.
KrackShott post 11: Asks why he's scum. Talks about Redwall and the Book of Changes.
Conclusion: KrackShott has been avoiding issues with players when he can.
@burboy: I endorse this product or service and would like to know more from KrackShott in particular about post #8 and why he hasn't taken a stance on ANYTHING.
Agreed, I am especially grateful that you linked me back his 8th post where he literally becomes the fence re: Promatim. It's good to be able to trust the Seppel-gut.
* AsianInvasion adds KrackShott to "Leaning Scum" list.
Also, any chance I can still call dibs? I'll pass the favor (book) down the line.
Unvote
Vote KrackShott
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<Limited Clan>
1) I don't really trust you.
2) Now that the book's out of the bag, calling dibs is pointless.
Cool story bro. While you're dicking around with flavor, I'm gonna be scumhunting.
On second thought, unvote, vote AsianInvasion.
I claim, you unvote, and suddenly we're best pals? What the hell?
Something is very wrong. I guarantee there's one or two scum in the set of [Promatim, AsianInvasion, KrackShott].
KrackShott is on the fence about Promatim.
Promatim voted Burboy and backed down at the slightest bit of pressure.
Conclusion: KrackShott & Promatim scumbuddies 4 life. AsianInvasion is planning something but I don't know what.
Unvote, vote KrackShott. I want to lynch KrackShott & Promatim and I would appreciate them posting more so they can give away their scumbuddies.
This is a lousy argument. You say you have a problem with Fu Xi being alive for 4000 years but don't doubt the claimed name? Fascinating. When Seppel passes along the book whoever gets it can verify the claim; I find it unlikely that Seppel made all those modkill-related posts as a gambit but it will be simple to prove regardless.
:thumbsup::thumbsup:
<nods>
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<Limited Clan>
No. One can usually refer to the votecounts for that.
In the same vein, what do you think of seratonin?
Isn't that sort of like gaming the mod?
Other than Seppel, what are your read on the other players?
That's very gracious of you.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
Honestly it's even much worse than that. It's not an issue of avoiding issues so much as he is actively non-contributing. He shows up to post things the mean absolutely nothing, leaves, and then comes back to do the same thing. No discussion, almost nothing but flavor speculation, which is a great tell anyways because that's what scum analysis actually is, and not even the slightest hint of commitment on, well, anything at all. Eleven posts in and there's no content, and he's been here lurking in plain sight. Cases do not get much easier than this.
You have done no scum hunting other than agreeing with an old point I made about seppel and then using flavor of all things as a justification for that vote. Make an actual case.
I got nothing. He needs to post more.
<shows some notes he has made in the margin of his newspaper>
Fenris - Confirmed Town.
burboy - Likely Town.
Calvin - Likely Town.
Seppel - Suspect.
AsianInvasion - Suspect.
Cyouni - Suspect.
TMM - No case.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
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<Limited Clan>
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
Other reasons like what? You haven't mentioned them, you having agreed with certain points against seppel, so to just say well, there's a reason he's going to be lynched doesn't cut it. That is straight bandwagoning.
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<Limited Clan>
I'm saying you haven't agreed with them.
So go ahead and just tell me right now why you're voting for him.
WHAT.
Did you just miss the whole AsianInvasion // KrackShott // Promatim love triangle? Or are you intentionally handwaving it and throwing out "OH ASIANINVASION IS SUSPICIOUS AND NOBODY ELSE IS WORTH MENTIONING"?
No. What you have said doesn't make sense.
AsianInvasion // KrackShott // Promatim analysis. Now.
<shakes head>
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<Limited Clan>
AND WHAT REASONS WOULD THAT BE?
<looks puzzled>
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
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<Limited Clan>
So then the full of your case is this:
The wording that I called out.
Flavor.
Other people are voting for him so he must be doing something wrong.
Right?
<nods>
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<Limited Clan>
No, you're right, I must be misunderstanding because I have no clue what the hell you're saying here.
<sighs>
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<Limited Clan>
1) This is fishing
2) It's flavor which is weak to the point of useless
3) This has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that other people are voting for him
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
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<Limited Clan>
What exactly is so convincing about that supposed 'confusion' from The Muffin Man? Explain it to me completely, please. Also...
@Seppel
Let me confirm -- your rolename has a title?
@The Muffin Man
Here's a question -- what exactly do you think of your own play in this game? Given that at one point you apparently blow up indignantly at kpaca re:Seppel and him thinking you are scum due to your blatant fence-sitting on the matter; but at another point you respond to someone saying that you should forget everything you learned at your previous mafia site by saying 'I know, I should'.
Oh, and I was the first person to vote you seriously. Why kpaca and not me, hm? Or were you that focused on digging up dirt on kpaca?
@Emo_Pinata
You may or may not be right about sanity being a global mechanic -- but if it is a global mechanic, and, as you say, both town and scum are liable to have someone with a low sanity number, what conceivable purpose would a sanity number claim (which you called for) serve?
Will re-read Promatim. Not convinced on AsianInvasion. KrackShott hasn't done enough either way to say anything, which means he needs to actually do something in thread. seratonin is highly suspect.
Also, Some One is in this game and not doing anything. This is worthy of notice.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Emotional responses are how you catch scum? Like, that and lies is 90% of the time how scum get lynched. Also, I'm not liking your face.
You aren't really pulling the "please form your attack in the form of a question" nonsense, are you? I'd appreciate it very much if you would respond to my posts about you, thanks in advance.
Ok, clearly there is a section of players that can't handle jokes and feel like I'm annoying/mean/whatever. I apologize. Please don't ignore my analysis because of personal dislike - I have played in nearly 50 games of mafia and know what I'm doing. If you guys promise to carefully consider my posts, I promise not to make fun of anybody unless they really, really deserve it.
@kpaca: in one post, could you outline all the stuff Seppel has done that's scummy? I'm missing the meta part here and I'm not seeing anything all that scummy from him.
Nah, it's way better because my thoughts can flow and my impressions of the thread are genuine.
I thought he was calling burboy a bad player of the game mafia, which read to me like he really wanted to vote him. Don't put words in my mouth.
I'm not sarcastic to just the people misrep'ing me? Anyway, the misrep was way back when kpaca accused me of 'grilling' mtg monkey. Get with reading the thread.
No, it doesn't. He says essentially 'mafia players usually give their opinion' as his reason. That says nothing about why he wanted to know. I promised I'd tell you my thoughts when he (ever? Pretty please?) answers, please drop it for now.
This is an epic freak out. Have you ever been scum before? Scum lurk, dude, and I'm calling you on it. Townies want to catch scum no matter their circumstances. I once was in Hawaii, and it would take 5 minutes to make a short post with the terrible internet I had, and I still slogged through the thread because I wanted to win. Don't throw your life at me. If you have real time commitment issues, get replaced. Don't use them as an excuse to lurk to the endgame while making us feel bad because your life is sucky right now. Sheesh.
I have no idea what you are talking about with the images and picture stuff, but guys, note that Talore is openly admitting he doesn't want us to be able to judge his behavior, so he's gonna lurk.
Well, I'm sorry, I'm sure you will deliver us some brilliant, involved analysis that covers everything that has -
You've got to be kidding me. Well, at least you aren't going to mindlessly hop on the largest bandwagon given that you -
...Wow. Wait, I thought you didn't read the thread? Weren't you just complaining about it? What, did you JUST read the part about Seppel? Please tell me what was 'really bad'.
Well, the only way that could be scummier is if you were hyper aware of how close you are to lynching him, rig-
Vote: Talore
This sounds like the truth to me.
Ok, to be continued...
Oh wow, the lyncher gets his item, right? That is a wonderfully elegant role, that person gets basically his diary? Seppel, post your notes in that thread, this is def the purpose of your item. DEFINITELY a town role, imo.
If I understand you, you're stance is that both of them will be easier to read on later days? For the record, I'm still for a Promatim lynch barring him answering some of the posts about him in a way I really like.
This... is too scummy to be scummy, right? What on earth.
Can I barn this opinion? I'm thinking there is definitely one and it's 50/50 there is another.
Too... many... scummy dudes... must... focus...
I'll come back to you tomorrow, dude.
Aaaand I'm caught up.
Here is some bonus analysis and my opinions on players so far:
Emo_Pinata - Been pretty aggressive, I feel like he is genuinely scum hunting even though I've disagreed with almost all of his reads. In particular I remember a post where he made some logical leaps that showed actual thought. Leaning slightly town.
Some One - Who? Post moar
Talore - Was lurking and posting very little. I called him on it, and he freaked out on me, admitting that he doesn't want to post more because he's busy and doesn't want us to be able to read him. I've never seen somebody so blatantly admit being scum before. Also, he promised to reread, got indignant when I said he wouldn't, and it looks like he really didn't. He bandwagoned onto Seppel in a very self-conscious way, vaguely barning a reason that happened awhile back. Just "he looks really bad, put him 2 away see ya guys". Would be ecstatic to lynch him.
Promatim - His posts read really distant to me. Like, he is posting opinions without saying anything new and I think he is trying pretty hard to look like he's contributing without making much of a real effort. He was dismissive on votes on him, refusing to respond. I think he's been lurking through the pressure on him, hoping that Seppel gets lynched and we forget about him. Strongly reading as scum.
desCoures - Called me annoying, what a jerk. Post moar.
burboy - Is 99% likely town. Have you recognized me yet, nub?
Fenris - Kind of freaked on me, but lately he is reading as more newish town. He is newer, right? If he's scum, he regained his composure remarkably fast.
Calvin - I've liked his posts and thoughts so far, but I get the impression he is a strong player. Don't know enough about him to rule out cagey scum yet, but if I had to take a side I would be leaning a little town on him.
Seppel - His behavior is less scummy than people have made out and I think his claim is super strong in his favor. Big points in his favor that he kept looking for scum even as he was being pressed into claim range.
TeknoLink - His posts are super strange. Really uncertain, I need to pay attention to his earlier stuff when I eventually do a reread.
AlphaInsidious - I can't remember any of his posts really. Post moar
AsianInvasion - I feel like he is posting with an agenda. I'm not sure exactly what to point to, I just feel a motivation and pushing in his posts that make me thinks he is actively trying for something. There has also been a few really odd comments from him. I would say this is how a fairly experienced player acts as scum, but I'm not sure enough to want him dead yet.
kpaca - He is either strongly town or an amazing scum player. I'm leaning heavily towards the former until something gives me a reason to reconsider.
bateleur - I have a hard time making myself read his posts. I don't believe he has an actual PR, but I'm not sure what that means. Neutral read.
Dagger - I've liked most of his posts so far and thought they were pretty insightful. Please give us more of them.
KrackShott - Want to see the pbpa and kpaca/burboys analysis of him, but if Seppel's descriptions of his posts were accurate, I think I'd be okay lynching him.
Monkey_Playing_MTG - Lurking and avoiding talking to me. MOAR POSTS
Cyouni - Strongly engaging the thread and pressing a lot. From my discussion with him, I felt like he was town really trying to figure me out. I guess I'm leaning slightly town? Like, really slightly.
SGT_Chubbz - his interaction with burboy is pretty awful. He's not contributing much otherwise. I can't remember his early posts, would love to see a pbpa of him. I might do one tomorrow if I have time.
The_Muffin_Man - 99.9% newb town. Call it gut.
seratonin - One of the most rational posters itt. I remember getting good vibes from him early on, but I can't point to anything specific that he's done at the moment. Definitely a player I will pay more attention to on a reread.
my god
sure I don't see any reason to believe characters could not be from different time periods
that is flavor, it's flavor, it's basing it on the flavor of the character, not even the role it's the flavor, IT'S FLAVOR SAYING IT'S NOT FLAVOR DOESN'T MAKE IT NOT FLAVOR BECAUSE IT'S FLAVOR
no
I thought Seppel got in trouble for revealing the shape of his role PM again. He said earlier that he didn't read his mile long role PM, and with this poem it's obvious that he's not scum. I figured he just let it slip his role PM was extra long, and there's onyl sso many reasons for that. unvote
I'm not concerned about it since you could say similar things about my role name, though not to the same extreme.
My only concern would be if he's neutral.
EWP: Meh, not so much. I lived a lot more recently than I realized.
It really wouldn't be much benefit to catching scum, but I felt it would be a safe exploration of the sanity mechanic as well as giving something to explore. Not only would everyone now know how sane they are, but we knew who was at risk all without someone having to cough up how the sanity value gets modified to begin with and driving someone insane by it.
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vote Talore nacho's posted the same feelings I have for him before I did, though I could get behind Asian or seratonin.
<looks thoughtful>
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
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<Limited Clan>
The first, like mentioned in the caption next to it, is zhen, The Arousing.
The following one is kan, The Abysmal.
The only interesting thing to mention on either of these is that the first has the attribute of inciting movement, which I suppose makes sense because of the town role. However, the second is the attribute "dangerous." Now take that for what its worth, and I have no idea what it means. I doubt it means anything.
Quotes in blog.
oh jesus christ is that you yoss?
I'll help in anyway I can, but I hope you guys understand I won't have any brilliant insight to offer, at least not at the moment.
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You unvoted Seppel for his poem flavor? I thought the reason you went after him was because you got the same feelings as kpaca about Seppel's pay-less-attention-as-scum-trait? And kpaca was still interested in Seppel despite that.
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Lol. I definitely did re-read, that's the reason I saw the kpaca-Seppel interaction in the first place...
I wasn't going to put that burden on rianalnn and whoever would be obligated to replace me. If it gets worse, I will ask. Now doesn't seem to be the appropriate time, what with you trying to drive a wagon on me.
fix'd
I also lol'd when he said hyper aware. I used the votecounts as reference points when re-reading, so now I'm hyper-aware, because I re-read instead of... whatever the hell he said I did. So, he thinks I jumped on without thought, so now I'll show him why he's wrong.
Originally I discounted the Seppel wagon because I thought it was just a meta-arguement, which I don't trust that much. I latched onto this post.
But re-reading, and seeing this post in isolation, where he just aquired a single vote on him, that's a totally inappropriate response given the circumstances.
This is right after the above quote. I must have mindlessly jumped onto this wagon like the other nine people.
Eat my shorts.
You mispelled haven't - LIAR!!!
As long as the newer players don't get in the way with their fencesitting it should be fine (i.e. "idk if we should do XYZ, I want to see what everyone else says first").
Working together isn't merely about what you are doing, but also what you are actively not doing, so yeah, this makes sense.
How serious was this post?
I understand the point that it is probably a bad idea to make a townie lose his insanity (re: the rules), but it's not directly inferable what the effect would be if a scum lost his insanity - could be bad for the town, bad for the scum, or bad for everyone. It's probably best to let it happen naturally and handle it after the fact.
Basically exactly what I thought should be the case.
It takes a certain type of "thing" to get a person lynched so early (like Kpaca & Seppel). I only actually read the first half thusfar, so I don't know what happened with that and its status currently, but it is those type of tells that develop early leads and can ultimately serve to get the game out of the random stage, and then real posts can be analyzed from then on.
You made a post above that said "ok."
I wasn't sure about NW 'till this post, but I feel confident that he is town as a result of it.
It's weird how the downfall of this post comes after his latest and greatest post. To call many beginning posts useless is basically like calling a cake a cake. The cake is always there, but sometimes it's a special cake, like a cheesecake.
Textbook logical Kpacan response.
It's a given that it would never be finished, so you're undeniably always posting a work in progress. What does waiting accomplish?
I feel like it'd be a very simplistic system, for the sheer fact that having many intricate rules would drive the mod out of his mind and cause confusion amongst the player base. I guess people could be "linked" somehow, whereby the deaths of others cause their own insanity problems.
This relates to the whole cake/cheesecake thing I said, and relates to how you can't really make a solid case (re: AI) with something that isn't more telling so early on.
Did you really miss it?
Part 2 coming...
<nods>
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Yeah, emo piniata is probably scum #2 if someone wants to do the legwork, I know right off the top of my head his voting this game is absolutely atrocious..