DKD: your analysis of TIM can only really be relevent if you compare it to his other games as scum and town. If he usually doesn't vote much, [your] point is moot.
@Eco: In Basic #21 we were a scumteam and he played pretty similar. He generated a lot of discussion without placing a vote by asking questions and seemingly acting pro-town. He did vote more in that game, but he only really did once the wagons were started. He was a strong town read for everyone until the last days. I encourage you to read that game, his play is quite similar. He's directing traffic.
Personally, DKD's attack on me is an attempt to distract attention away from himself. Now I don't want to sound too OMGUS-y, but it makes me feel significantly worse about you.
Now, for the points against me:
Quote from dropkickdude »
So I went back and looked at Final Votecounts. I think that this late in the game they serve as an objective, albeit superficial, way to analyze someone. In doing so I noticed something. Out of 5 final votecounts, TheIceMan was listed as not voting on 4 out of the 5, his other 1 being on tordeck. Now that's not scummy in and of itself, but it caused me to go back and look at his voting pattern.
OK great, so we've established (by your own reasoning) there's nothing scummy here.
Moving along. Here's what I found:
-Out of the entire game, he's only voted 4 times.
---On Day 1 he voted for vez after vez claimed in order to pressure him into claiming further. Once vez did, he promptly Unvoted.
---On Day 2 he voted for r_0 during the original (unsuccessful) wagon, but switched to tordeck because of his terrible play.
---On Day 3 he voted for Ace as part of Eco's plan to "out" Sylar and nothing more.
---On Day 5 he expressed a willingness to vote for SB at the tail end of SB's wagon.
-Out of the entire game, he's only voted for scum once. He voted for r_0 during the original wagon on Day 2, but defended him the second time around on Day 3.
First of all, please explain why any of these individual cases are scummy at all. In fact, tell me how any of my votes have not reflected a town mindset.
TIM has been active enough post-wise, and has contributed enough to keep suspicion away, but has done practically nothing with his vote!
You've overlooked my justifications for not voting. On Day 1, you'll notice that joboman was quicklynched and I didn't post between the time his wagon took off and he was lynched. On Day 2, I voted for obvscum Tordeck (who somehow flipped town). On Day 3, I specifically said that I was afraid that r_0 was in fact Claire. On Day 5, I wanted to give SB a chance to defend himself, which he didn't do.
Interesting quote from Day 5, as he never once voted for said "confirmed scum" and also considering he admits his own wincon involves someone else:
First of all, my voting pattern has absolutely nothing to do with this point.
Second of all, you've conveniently overlooked what actually happened. I assumed that everyone's wincon was the same (that is the natural thing to do). When Draco's was different from mine, I assumed that he was scum. Then, once Ace withdrew his evidence, I noted how weird it was that we could all have the same wincon except one. Noting the flavor of draco's wincon, I asked whether everyone had the added clause I have in my win condition. Please riddle me this. Why would I try and clear someone who was still a possible lynch target if I were scum?
This here is a nice backpedal now that Ace no longer has damning info against draco. Funny thing is, if he really does need to kill vez (the bomb) in order to win, why did he hop off his wagon on Day 1 and defend him after he fullclaimed? His behavior doesn't add up.
See above for the first sentence.
Whoops, big misrep here. My wincon is to stop the bomb, not kill Vezo. For all we know lynching Vezo could set off the bomb. And actually, my behavior adds up quite nicely. Doesn't it make sense that I would push for as much information as possible about Vezo's role and repeatedly berate people who don't want him to share more, if it is part of my wincon?
Way to ignore the entire second sentence of my post. How do we know Isaac wasn't the safeclaim given to the scum by r_0's power?
Except that Claire (the safeclaim r_0 got) was also in the game. What are you trying to say?
@Eco: In Basic #21 we were a scumteam and he played pretty similar. He generated a lot of discussion without placing a vote by asking questions and seemingly acting pro-town. He did vote more in that game, but he only really did once the wagons were started. He was a strong town read for everyone until the last days. I encourage you to read that game, his play is quite similar. He's directing traffic.
Let me address the meta attack in full: This actually sounds a lot like what DKD did at the end of Basic #21, when he was being attacked as "caught" scum. He's been throwing suspicion on, quite literally, every player that he thinks he can get lynched. So far that's been AI, Eco, and now me. In fact, his attack on me followed the exact same pattern as his attack on Kraj in that game, where he posted first to say he was "working on something," and then came back with the attack.
As far as the behavioral comparison, I'll leave it up to the rest of you to make the comparison, but suffice it to say that I voted significantly more than four times in that game. And if you're going to say that I voted more times but only when wagons had already begun, how is that at all like what I've been doing here? I've joined very few of the wagons except for the one that I started myself.
If there's any doubt left that I'm town, then please review my claim (and the subsequent clear up of confusion surrounding the type of results I'm supposed to be getting). Please tell me that sounds fake.
Personally, DKD's attack on me is an attempt to distract attention away from himself. Now I don't want to sound too OMGUS-y, but it makes me feel significantly worse about you.
OMGUS is still OMGUS, no matter how you preface it.
Now, for the points against me:
OK great, so we've established (by your own reasoning) there's nothing scummy here.
No. I said that's not scummy in and of itself. Thats' why I wanted to go back and look at your voting pattern from throughout the day instead of just at the end of it.
First of all, please explain why any of these individual cases are scummy at all. In fact, tell me how any of my votes have not reflected a town mindset.
I was merely listing your votes. Individually they're not scummy. Together they establish a pattern.
You've overlooked my justifications for not voting. On Day 1, you'll notice that joboman was quicklynched and I didn't post between the time his wagon took off and he was lynched. On Day 2, I voted for obvscum Tordeck (who somehow flipped town). On Day 3, I specifically said that I was afraid that r_0 was in fact Claire. On Day 5, I wanted to give SB a chance to defend himself, which he didn't do.
I will give you Day 1 with the joboman quicklynch. Day 3 had a lot more going on than just r_0 though. Simply defending someone is not scumhunting, especially after that person flips scum. You offer no arguement to a voteless Day 4. And your actions Day 5 can be explained by a willingness to not "scum hammer" or whatever like r_0 did. In fact you mention just that.
First of all, my voting pattern has absolutely nothing to do with this point.
Second of all, you've conveniently overlooked what actually happened. I assumed that everyone's wincon was the same (that is the natural thing to do). When Draco's was different from mine, I assumed that he was scum. Then, once Ace withdrew his evidence, I noted how weird it was that we could all have the same wincon except one. Noting the flavor of draco's wincon, I asked whether everyone had the added clause I have in my win condition. Please riddle me this. Why would I try and clear someone who was still a possible lynch target if I were scum?
First of all, I reserve the right to express multiple points, not just one.
Second of all, I figured you would have looked at the rules to this game:
Quote from Game Rules »
8) In this game, the Town is the Hero faction and the Mafia are the Villian faction. These terms may be used interchangeably.
8b) As always, the town win condition is "Exterminate the Villians".
See above for the first sentence.
Whoops, big misrep here. My wincon is to stop the bomb, not kill Vezo. For all we know lynching Vezo could set off the bomb. And actually, my behavior adds up quite nicely. Doesn't it make sense that I would push for as much information as possible about Vezo's role and repeatedly berate people who don't want him to share more, if it is part of my wincon?
Is it so hard to see stop=kill? That was my first thought. And making vez fullclaim was not my point, but nice strawman. My point was (under the assumption you needed vez to die) that it didn't add up for you to hop off and defend him. If I'm wrong about this, I'm wrong. But I certainly got the impression you needed ted Sprague to die.
Except that Claire (the safeclaim r_0 got) was also in the game. What are you trying to say?
How do you know what result r_0 got? And furthermore, how do you know he didn't just leave it open for someone else who wasn't going down in flames to use instead?
Quote from Let me address the meta attack in full: This actually sounds a lot like what DKD did at the end of Basic #21, when he was being attacked as "caught" scum. He"s been throwing suspicion on, quite literally, every player that he thinks he can get lynched. So far that"s been AI, Eco, and now me. In fact, his attack on me followed the exact same pattern as his attack on Kraj in that game, where he posted first to say he was "working on something," and then came back with the attack.[/quote »
I figured you'd bring something like this up. My attack on AI was totally justified, I've been saying I think he's Sylar for days. My "attack" on Eco wasn't an attack, I was just trying to open people's eyes to another possibility. I'm trying to stay suspicious of everyone.
[quote]As far as the behavioral comparison, I'll leave it up to the rest of you to make the comparison, but suffice it to say that I voted significantly more than four times in that game. And if you're going to say that I voted more times but only when wagons had already begun, how is that at all like what I've been doing here? I've joined very few of the wagons except for the one that I started myself.
Yes you voted more in #21 (8 times to be exact), I'm saying your play feels the same; hanging back and seeing what's going on, and only voting when opportunity strikes.
If there's any doubt left that I'm town, then please review my claim (and the subsequent clear up of confusion surrounding the type of results I'm supposed to be getting). Please tell me that sounds fake.
Your claim is easily fakeable. You don't know you're target so it's quite easy to come in and say "herpa derp my guy was targeted twice last night." The fact that you are pointing back to your claim for safety gives me more reason to believe that Isaac really was the falseclaim r_0 received.
No. I said that's not scummy in and of itself. Thats' why I wanted to go back and look at your voting pattern from throughout the day instead of just at the end of it.
Exactly, you're agreeing with me - so there's nothing more to discuss here.
I was merely listing your votes. Individually they're not scummy. Together they establish a pattern.
A pattern of what? Not having my vote on the lynch for the day? I thought we just agreed that that wasn't scummy?
I will give you Day 1 with the joboman quicklynch. Day 3 had a lot more going on than just r_0 though. Simply defending someone is not scumhunting, especially after that person flips scum. You offer no arguement to a voteless Day 4. And your actions Day 5 can be explained by a willingness to not "scum hammer" or whatever like r_0 did. In fact you mention just that.
You still have never said why my not voting is scummy.
Day 3 had hardly anything but r_0 going on. And now you're changing your argument. Suddenly I wasn't scumhunting Day 3, when your argument all along is meta based on the fact that I supposedly pretend to scumhunt while not voting? I've said why I didn't vote for r_0 D3, please show (with actual evidence) how the position I was taking was scummy.
And your actions Day 5 can be explained by a willingness to not "scum hammer" or whatever like r_0 did. In fact you mention just that.
Or, as makes much more sense given my actions on the other days, I've wanted to let the wagon target explain themselves or attempt to defend themselves before voting. No one would have faulted me for hammering SB in that position. You've conjured up a fairly shaky explanation for why I would do what I did as scum. But you've failed to notice that there's actually a much more valid town reason to do what I did - that I'm telling the truth.
First of all, I reserve the right to express multiple points, not just one.
Second of all, I figured you would have looked at the rules to this game:
First, you brought up a completely unrelated point in making this attack on me. It shows your over eagerness to make a case where there is none.
Second, why? Why would I assume that my wincon is not the town wincon?
Is it so hard to see stop=kill? That was my first thought. And making vez fullclaim was not my point, but nice strawman. My point was (under the assumption you needed vez to die) that it didn't add up for you to hop off and defend him. If I'm wrong about this, I'm wrong. But I certainly got the impression you needed ted Sprague to die.
Since when did stop ever equal kill? There was no way in hell I was going to let us lynch Vezo (with unforeseen consequences that could cause me to lose) given my wincon.
You say my behavior re: Vezo does not add up. Show specifically how my behavior re: Vezo does not add up. Additionally, calling my defense a strawman is inaccurate and once again demonstrates how you're straining to make a case on me. You said my behavior does not add up, I told you exactly how it did.
How do you know what result r_0 got? And furthermore, how do you know he didn't just leave it open for someone else who wasn't going down in flames to use instead?
I kind of assumed r_0 would use the result that he got - why wouldn't he? If he had survived that day, he would have been able to get another falseclaim for someone else to use later on. Furthermore, all the roles in the opening post have been confirmed to be in the game thus far. While it's possible that Isaac isn't in the game and in fact I'm lying scum...I think it makes a lot more sense that I'm actually Isaac, who is in the game like the others.
I figured you'd bring something like this up. My attack on AI was totally justified, I've been saying I think he's Sylar for days. My "attack" on Eco wasn't an attack, I was just trying to open people's eyes to another possibility. I'm trying to stay suspicious of everyone.
Justified or not, you're trying to shift the focus away from you. Just as you did in #21, when you were close to being caught.
Glad you think AI is Sylar. That's kind of what everyone else has been saying for 3 days now, so it hardly credits you.
As for your suggestion that we can't rule out Eco, it's a classic scum move since too many other options have been ruled out. You can't case AI because you know the town will never lynch Sylar. You can't case Nacho Wizard because he's been too townie. Vezo is obviously Vezo. That leaves me, you, and kpaca - and the only person you can attack is me, since the far scummier kpaca is your buddy. You went down the list of easiest victims. Eco was the easiest, so you try to figure out a way that he could still be scum. When you couldn't do that, I was next, hence your case on me.
Yes you voted more in #21 (8 times to be exact), I'm saying your play feels the same; hanging back and seeing what's going on, and only voting when opportunity strikes.
Except that you just said in that game I was placing votes on people when wagons had already begun. In this game your case against me revolves around my not voting for people who had wagons on them.
Your claim is easily fakeable. You don't know you're target so it's quite easy to come in and say "herpa derp my guy was targeted twice last night." The fact that you are pointing back to your claim for safety gives me more reason to believe that Isaac really was the falseclaim r_0 received.
You're really pushing this one hard, aren't you? You like my claim so much (and can't find any fault in it) that I must be using a falseclaim that I received from my buddy, despite my buddy not using it on himself when it would certainly have saved him? Once again, you have cooked up this elaborate way that I could be scum and yet my claim would seem townie, while ignoring the much more obvious answer: that I'm telling the truth.
Except that Claire (the safeclaim r_0 got) was also in the game. What are you trying to say?
Nah, he knew Claire was in the game. There was no way that was his false-claim; he did that with the hopes that it would be enough to deter his lynch (it almost was) and so the scum would be able to figure out who she was if she counter-claimed.
I kind of assumed r_0 would use the result that he got - why wouldn't he? If he had survived that day, he would have been able to get another falseclaim for someone else to use later on.
Actually, Identity Thief can only be used once per game. I still agree that red_0mega would have used the false-claim immediately if had it, though.
A pattern of what? Not having my vote on the lynch for the day? I thought we just agreed that that wasn't scummy?
They establish a pattern of not voting.
You still have never said why my not voting is scummy.
Day 3 had hardly anything but r_0 going on. And now you're changing your argument. Suddenly I wasn't scumhunting Day 3, when your argument all along is meta based on the fact that I supposedly pretend to scumhunt while not voting? I've said why I didn't vote for r_0 D3, please show (with actual evidence) how the position I was taking was scummy.
I'm not changing my arguement, I'm responding to what you said. Not voting is scummy because it seems to me that you are hiding in doing so.
Or, as makes much more sense given my actions on the other days, I've wanted to let the wagon target explain themselves or attempt to defend themselves before voting. No one would have faulted me for hammering SB in that position. You've conjured up a fairly shaky explanation for why I would do what I did as scum. But you've failed to notice that there's actually a much more valid town reason to do what I did - that I'm telling the truth.
The truth is relative.
First, you brought up a completely unrelated point in making this attack on me. It shows your over eagerness to make a case where there is none.
I saw multiple things, so I pointed out multiple things. I'm just telling everyone what I see.
Second, why? Why would I assume that my wincon is not the town wincon?
...because the rules say so? Is this so hard to see?
Since when did stop ever equal kill? There was no way in hell I was going to let us lynch Vezo (with unforeseen consequences that could cause me to lose) given my wincon.
You say my behavior re: Vezo does not add up. Show specifically how my behavior re: Vezo does not add up. Additionally, calling my defense a strawman is inaccurate and once again demonstrates how you're straining to make a case on me. You said my behavior does not add up, I told you exactly how it did.
Like I said, your behavior only adds up if my stop=kill assumption is true, which apparently it isn't or whatever. The strawman comment was because you were saying that the fullclaim was the non-sensical thing I was referencing, when really it was the defense thereafter. Getting him to fullclaim made perfect sense, but under my assuption defending him didn't. I conceed this point, obviously I was wrong about stop equalling kill.
I kind of assumed r_0 would use the result that he got - why wouldn't he? If he had survived that day, he would have been able to get another falseclaim for someone else to use later on. Furthermore, all the roles in the opening post have been confirmed to be in the game thus far. While it's possible that Isaac isn't in the game and in fact I'm lying scum...I think it makes a lot more sense that I'm actually Isaac, who is in the game like the others.
Again reading what the mod posts is generally good.
Quote from Zionite, Post #1 »
Illusionist:
Illusion(target player, night action, supernatural): Each night you may send in the name of a player. That player will appear to be a Villain if investigated that night.
Identity Thief(target self, night action, one shot, supernatural): Once during the game and during the night phase, you may use this action to obtain a safe role claim that isn't already in the game via PM the next day. This ability may not be used in conjunction with Illusion.
Obviously he could only use this power once.
Justified or not, you're trying to shift the focus away from you. Just as you did in #21, when you were close to being caught.
Except that trying to do so was part of our gameplan was it not? Do I have to post our scumchat here for proof?
Glad you think AI is Sylar. That's kind of what everyone else has been saying for 3 days now, so it hardly credits you.
I'm not looking for credit. You called me out for attacking him, I'm just giving my reason.
As for your suggestion that we can't rule out Eco, it's a classic scum move since too many other options have been ruled out. You can't case AI because you know the town will never lynch Sylar. You can't case Nacho Wizard because he's been too townie. Vezo is obviously Vezo. That leaves me, you, and kpaca - and the only person you can attack is me, since the far scummier kpaca is your buddy. You went down the list of easiest victims. Eco was the easiest, so you try to figure out a way that he could still be scum. When you couldn't do that, I was next, hence your case on me.
Since you are so fond of the saying: Or the simpler reason is that I'm telling the truth about trying to keep my eyes open and see every possibility.
Except that you just said in that game I was placing votes on people when wagons had already begun. In this game your case against me revolves around my not voting for people who had wagons on them.
I'm saying the two are similar. The mindset is the same. Your votes in that game were mostly opportunistic. You hung back and directed traffic, same as here.
You're really pushing this one hard, aren't you? You like my claim so much (and can't find any fault in it) that I must be using a falseclaim that I received from my buddy, despite my buddy not using it on himself when it would certainly have saved him? Once again, you have cooked up this elaborate way that I could be scum and yet my claim would seem townie, while ignoring the much more obvious answer: that I'm telling the truth.
What do you mean I'm pushing this one hard? Everyone left alive has an easily fakeable role. r_0 was going down regardless of claim, Cyan was going to see to that. So wouldn't the responsible thing be to leave the good falseclaim to his buddies?
So far today everyone has been talking about how bad the situation is, and their right. The game looks all but lost to the remaining Town. I worry that AI is going to kill vez and either set him off or take his power. I worry that he now has Claire's ability and is thus immune if vez does go nuclear. I worry that if he doesn't blow up tonight he will tomorrow if we try to lynch him. I worry that people will get lost in mod gaming and setup analysis. I worry that a defeatist attitude will lead everyone to not try to look at things closely. I at least, will be continuing to analyze things, look for small details, and generate discussion. Look at everything that's happened tonight (real time), all the discussion was provided by me. I poked and prodded AI into all but admitting he's Sylar. I've generated a back-and-forth with you TIM that should at least get people thinking. I'm not systematically going through the list of players and trying to get whoever I can lynched, I'm systematically going through the thread and looking closely for things I've missed thusfar and pointing them out.
I finally found out what my ability does (or I think so).
Anyone who tries to kill me by vote or night avtion dies in my place.
I hope this is it. It may be I die and they die with me but I think it's more likely just they to die.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy. Check out the Shop Thread
I finally found out what my ability does (or I think so).
Anyone who tries to kill me by vote or night avtion dies in my place.
I hope this is it. It may be I die and they die with me but I think it's more likely just they to die.
We already know AI is Sylar.
We gotta convince the town to vote dkd to get over with the day.
please stop posting. you are adding nothing except "guys guys! vote quick and end the game derf derf hurrrrrrrryyyyy" and its really annoying. like, everybody knows you are just coasting to the end and dont actually care what happens, so quit pretending. i would rather pound nails into my (redacted) then read your posts.
I promise, I swear on any thing you could possibly think of, I will not troll or insult a single other person in this thread if you go away and stop posting. It's all because when my eyes start bleeding, I can't control myself.
Only YOU have the power to make the internet safe.
I finally found out what my ability does (or I think so).
Anyone who tries to kill me by vote or night avtion dies in my place.
I hope this is it. It may be I die and they die with me but I think it's more likely just they to die.
"People think I collect art. What I really collect are lives fixed in paint. The perfect moment capturing an entire existence, made immortal. A monster's fight to survive, and live to kill again. A mother willing to fracture her own soul to protect her child. A youth's struggle for innocence, despite life's cruelty. The double-edged lies needed to sustain a double-edged life. A wondering hero's pure joy at success — and his darkest hour, when all the world seems lost. All perfect moments frozen in time. Alone, each tells a single story. Together, they can tell the future."
I'm pretty sure kpaca is not going to post except to avoid prods. We should move ahead and lynch him or dkd.
We should not be doing anything the claimed SK wants us to be doing, just because he says so. I'm pretty sure that AI would be immune to anything that happened from Ted exploding, and we know he's immune to the Mafia NK and L+1 in order to lynch. Here's my analysis of the situation, and it isn't good:
If scum is lynched today I'm going to kill town.
If town is lynched today I'm going to kill vezokpiraka.
So if we lynch Mafia we go into N6 with 3 Town, 1 Neutral, 1 SK, and 1 Mafia. AI has to go after Town otherwise he's the obvious lynch D7, and the Mafia have to go after Town because AI is immune and vez would likely kill them too. If both hit it's 1 Town, 1 Neutral, 1 SK, and 1 Mafia going into D7 at which point vez and the remaining Townie get to pick which of the scum wins. The Town only has a 1/3 chance that both AI and the scum pick the same target at which point it's 2-1-1-1 and then AI gets lynched D7. D8 is 1 Town, 1 Neutral, 0 SK, and 1 Scum at which point vez just picks one or the other and wins. Knowing this, AI will have to announce his kill, knowing he loses if they target the same guy - so we really lose anyway. Overall Town Success Rate: 1 in 6 if for some unknown reason AI and the Mafia don't coordinate.
So if we lynch Town we go into N6 with 2-1-1-2 as the breakdown. At this point AI's only way to win is to hit vez and hope he blows up some other people. Any other scenario leaves AI as the D7 lynch. If it turns out that only vez dies and AI is immune to the blast then we start D7 with 1-0-1-2 and the Town loses regardless. Overall Town Success Rate: 0
So if we lynch AI we go into N6 with 3-1-0-2 as the breakdown. D7 begins with 2-1-0-2, 1 mafioso outs himself and tells vez to vote with them and the Town loses, or vez's conscience gets the better of him and he votes the mafioso that outed themselves. Overall Town Success Rate: dependant upon vez's conscience
So if we lynch vez it gets crazy. We go into N6 with a breakdown of 3-0-1-2 unless he goes supersaint on us. In this scenario, AI would be the obvious lynch if he hits Mafia because then the breakdown would be 2-0-1-1 (or 3-0-1-1 if he hits the killer), so he'll have to go after Town. The Mafia realize this and (even supposing they can) won't kill him, they'll go after Town. Which leaves D7 starting with either 1-0-1-2, or 2-0-1-2 if they both target the same guy. Either way Town loses. The only way we win after lynching a non-supersaint vez is if the Mafia kill AI N6 and AI's kill doesn't go off or hits Mafia. (And even then it's not a sure thing) Overall Town Success Rate: dependant upon vez's role and some WIFOM, likely 0 (even if vez is a supersaint, the only way we win is if AI throws down the hammer - which he isn't going to do)
Conclusion: Our only real way of winning is to lynch AI, hope vez sides with us, and hope we can hit both Mafioso after that. (someone please tell me I'm wrong here)
EBWoP: Why would vezok side with the town when siding with the scum is an auto-win? It makes no sense. dkd is just trying to arrange an easy win.
I'm not saying he won't simply side with the Mafia, I'm saying it's our only chance at victory at all. Please tell me where that analysis is wrong, cause I don't like relying on vez any more than the next guy.
EBWoP 2: We could force you to hammer vezokpiraka, dkd. Two birds, one lynch?
Even if he is a supersaint, even if I agree to hammer, and even if I am scum Town still loses though...
N6 becomes 3-0-1-1, AI has to hit Town or be the lynch, Mafia has to hit Town too because you are immune. That leaves D7 1-0-1-1 or 2-0-1-1, and you win either way by being +1 to lynch. Now who's trying to engineer an easy win?
IMO, I deserve to win this game. The scum played poorly and were lucky to even get to this point because there weren't any cross-kills, not to mention StormBlind completely imploded and caused the only mislynch in the game.
If the town is forced to a kingmaker position I should be their pick.
(Plus, vezokpiraka does not deserve to win this game.)
Yeah, AI screwed himself. Dkd is right - if there was any chance of a crosskill, we can't lynch him. Him claiming ruins that, and who knows? Maybe vezok will be useful to earn his victory.
Yeah, AI screwed himself. Dkd is right - if there was any chance of a crosskill, we can't lynch him. Him claiming ruins that, and who knows? Maybe vezok will be useful to earn his victory.
vote: ai
You don't seriously think that vezok will side with the town, do you? The only reason I could see for you to make this play is if you're scum (or bitter town, I guess).
The town's only hope of winning is lynching mafia (or possibly forcing scum to hammer vezokpiraka). Lynching me is an auto-lose.
@Eco: In Basic #21 we were a scumteam and he played pretty similar. He generated a lot of discussion without placing a vote by asking questions and seemingly acting pro-town. He did vote more in that game, but he only really did once the wagons were started. He was a strong town read for everyone until the last days. I encourage you to read that game, his play is quite similar. He's directing traffic.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Now, for the points against me:
OK great, so we've established (by your own reasoning) there's nothing scummy here.
First of all, please explain why any of these individual cases are scummy at all. In fact, tell me how any of my votes have not reflected a town mindset.
You've overlooked my justifications for not voting. On Day 1, you'll notice that joboman was quicklynched and I didn't post between the time his wagon took off and he was lynched. On Day 2, I voted for obvscum Tordeck (who somehow flipped town). On Day 3, I specifically said that I was afraid that r_0 was in fact Claire. On Day 5, I wanted to give SB a chance to defend himself, which he didn't do.
First of all, my voting pattern has absolutely nothing to do with this point.
Second of all, you've conveniently overlooked what actually happened. I assumed that everyone's wincon was the same (that is the natural thing to do). When Draco's was different from mine, I assumed that he was scum. Then, once Ace withdrew his evidence, I noted how weird it was that we could all have the same wincon except one. Noting the flavor of draco's wincon, I asked whether everyone had the added clause I have in my win condition. Please riddle me this. Why would I try and clear someone who was still a possible lynch target if I were scum?
See above for the first sentence.
Whoops, big misrep here. My wincon is to stop the bomb, not kill Vezo. For all we know lynching Vezo could set off the bomb. And actually, my behavior adds up quite nicely. Doesn't it make sense that I would push for as much information as possible about Vezo's role and repeatedly berate people who don't want him to share more, if it is part of my wincon?
Except that Claire (the safeclaim r_0 got) was also in the game. What are you trying to say?
Let me address the meta attack in full: This actually sounds a lot like what DKD did at the end of Basic #21, when he was being attacked as "caught" scum. He's been throwing suspicion on, quite literally, every player that he thinks he can get lynched. So far that's been AI, Eco, and now me. In fact, his attack on me followed the exact same pattern as his attack on Kraj in that game, where he posted first to say he was "working on something," and then came back with the attack.
As far as the behavioral comparison, I'll leave it up to the rest of you to make the comparison, but suffice it to say that I voted significantly more than four times in that game. And if you're going to say that I voted more times but only when wagons had already begun, how is that at all like what I've been doing here? I've joined very few of the wagons except for the one that I started myself.
If there's any doubt left that I'm town, then please review my claim (and the subsequent clear up of confusion surrounding the type of results I'm supposed to be getting). Please tell me that sounds fake.
OMGUS is still OMGUS, no matter how you preface it.
No. I said that's not scummy in and of itself. Thats' why I wanted to go back and look at your voting pattern from throughout the day instead of just at the end of it.
I was merely listing your votes. Individually they're not scummy. Together they establish a pattern.
I will give you Day 1 with the joboman quicklynch. Day 3 had a lot more going on than just r_0 though. Simply defending someone is not scumhunting, especially after that person flips scum. You offer no arguement to a voteless Day 4. And your actions Day 5 can be explained by a willingness to not "scum hammer" or whatever like r_0 did. In fact you mention just that.
First of all, I reserve the right to express multiple points, not just one.
Second of all, I figured you would have looked at the rules to this game:
Is it so hard to see stop=kill? That was my first thought. And making vez fullclaim was not my point, but nice strawman. My point was (under the assumption you needed vez to die) that it didn't add up for you to hop off and defend him. If I'm wrong about this, I'm wrong. But I certainly got the impression you needed ted Sprague to die.
How do you know what result r_0 got? And furthermore, how do you know he didn't just leave it open for someone else who wasn't going down in flames to use instead?
Yes you voted more in #21 (8 times to be exact), I'm saying your play feels the same; hanging back and seeing what's going on, and only voting when opportunity strikes.
Your claim is easily fakeable. You don't know you're target so it's quite easy to come in and say "herpa derp my guy was targeted twice last night." The fact that you are pointing back to your claim for safety gives me more reason to believe that Isaac really was the falseclaim r_0 received.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Exactly, you're agreeing with me - so there's nothing more to discuss here.
A pattern of what? Not having my vote on the lynch for the day? I thought we just agreed that that wasn't scummy?
You still have never said why my not voting is scummy.
Day 3 had hardly anything but r_0 going on. And now you're changing your argument. Suddenly I wasn't scumhunting Day 3, when your argument all along is meta based on the fact that I supposedly pretend to scumhunt while not voting? I've said why I didn't vote for r_0 D3, please show (with actual evidence) how the position I was taking was scummy.
Or, as makes much more sense given my actions on the other days, I've wanted to let the wagon target explain themselves or attempt to defend themselves before voting. No one would have faulted me for hammering SB in that position. You've conjured up a fairly shaky explanation for why I would do what I did as scum. But you've failed to notice that there's actually a much more valid town reason to do what I did - that I'm telling the truth.
First, you brought up a completely unrelated point in making this attack on me. It shows your over eagerness to make a case where there is none.
Second, why? Why would I assume that my wincon is not the town wincon?
Since when did stop ever equal kill? There was no way in hell I was going to let us lynch Vezo (with unforeseen consequences that could cause me to lose) given my wincon.
You say my behavior re: Vezo does not add up. Show specifically how my behavior re: Vezo does not add up. Additionally, calling my defense a strawman is inaccurate and once again demonstrates how you're straining to make a case on me. You said my behavior does not add up, I told you exactly how it did.
I kind of assumed r_0 would use the result that he got - why wouldn't he? If he had survived that day, he would have been able to get another falseclaim for someone else to use later on. Furthermore, all the roles in the opening post have been confirmed to be in the game thus far. While it's possible that Isaac isn't in the game and in fact I'm lying scum...I think it makes a lot more sense that I'm actually Isaac, who is in the game like the others.
Justified or not, you're trying to shift the focus away from you. Just as you did in #21, when you were close to being caught.
Glad you think AI is Sylar. That's kind of what everyone else has been saying for 3 days now, so it hardly credits you.
As for your suggestion that we can't rule out Eco, it's a classic scum move since too many other options have been ruled out. You can't case AI because you know the town will never lynch Sylar. You can't case Nacho Wizard because he's been too townie. Vezo is obviously Vezo. That leaves me, you, and kpaca - and the only person you can attack is me, since the far scummier kpaca is your buddy. You went down the list of easiest victims. Eco was the easiest, so you try to figure out a way that he could still be scum. When you couldn't do that, I was next, hence your case on me.
Except that you just said in that game I was placing votes on people when wagons had already begun. In this game your case against me revolves around my not voting for people who had wagons on them.
You're really pushing this one hard, aren't you? You like my claim so much (and can't find any fault in it) that I must be using a falseclaim that I received from my buddy, despite my buddy not using it on himself when it would certainly have saved him? Once again, you have cooked up this elaborate way that I could be scum and yet my claim would seem townie, while ignoring the much more obvious answer: that I'm telling the truth.
Nah, he knew Claire was in the game. There was no way that was his false-claim; he did that with the hopes that it would be enough to deter his lynch (it almost was) and so the scum would be able to figure out who she was if she counter-claimed.
Actually, Identity Thief can only be used once per game. I still agree that red_0mega would have used the false-claim immediately if had it, though.
But yeah, carry on.
You're 100% confirmed to me.
They establish a pattern of not voting.
I'm not changing my arguement, I'm responding to what you said. Not voting is scummy because it seems to me that you are hiding in doing so.
The truth is relative.
I saw multiple things, so I pointed out multiple things. I'm just telling everyone what I see.
...because the rules say so? Is this so hard to see?
Like I said, your behavior only adds up if my stop=kill assumption is true, which apparently it isn't or whatever. The strawman comment was because you were saying that the fullclaim was the non-sensical thing I was referencing, when really it was the defense thereafter. Getting him to fullclaim made perfect sense, but under my assuption defending him didn't. I conceed this point, obviously I was wrong about stop equalling kill.
Again reading what the mod posts is generally good.
Obviously he could only use this power once.
Except that trying to do so was part of our gameplan was it not? Do I have to post our scumchat here for proof?
I'm not looking for credit. You called me out for attacking him, I'm just giving my reason.
Since you are so fond of the saying: Or the simpler reason is that I'm telling the truth about trying to keep my eyes open and see every possibility.
I'm saying the two are similar. The mindset is the same. Your votes in that game were mostly opportunistic. You hung back and directed traffic, same as here.
What do you mean I'm pushing this one hard? Everyone left alive has an easily fakeable role. r_0 was going down regardless of claim, Cyan was going to see to that. So wouldn't the responsible thing be to leave the good falseclaim to his buddies?
So far today everyone has been talking about how bad the situation is, and their right. The game looks all but lost to the remaining Town. I worry that AI is going to kill vez and either set him off or take his power. I worry that he now has Claire's ability and is thus immune if vez does go nuclear. I worry that if he doesn't blow up tonight he will tomorrow if we try to lynch him. I worry that people will get lost in mod gaming and setup analysis. I worry that a defeatist attitude will lead everyone to not try to look at things closely. I at least, will be continuing to analyze things, look for small details, and generate discussion. Look at everything that's happened tonight (real time), all the discussion was provided by me. I poked and prodded AI into all but admitting he's Sylar. I've generated a back-and-forth with you TIM that should at least get people thinking. I'm not systematically going through the list of players and trying to get whoever I can lynched, I'm systematically going through the thread and looking closely for things I've missed thusfar and pointing them out.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Anyone who tries to kill me by vote or night avtion dies in my place.
I hope this is it. It may be I die and they die with me but I think it's more likely just they to die.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Hey, why ain't you just coming out with it? Stage Fright?
Where did this come from? Magic?
Anyway let's lynch scum. unvote Vote Dropkickdude
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
im so glad i joined this game. its been so much fun. you guys are all just great lets be friends forever
I am glad you think that way.
We already know AI is Sylar.
We gotta convince the town to vote dkd to get over with the day.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
please stop posting. you are adding nothing except "guys guys! vote quick and end the game derf derf hurrrrrrrryyyyy" and its really annoying. like, everybody knows you are just coasting to the end and dont actually care what happens, so quit pretending. i would rather pound nails into my (redacted) then read your posts.
pretty please?
Stop trolling.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Only YOU have the power to make the internet safe.
This is epic. Seriosly you are the coolest troll EVAR.
<3.
Anyway we still need more dkd votes.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Wishful thinking, eh?
Yeah, dkd is obvscum. Even if he flips town, I'm guaranteed to hit scum tonight so the game will still be on.
Vote dropkickdude
Vote: dropkickdude
They are both scum, as I've been saying for a while now. I don't think it makes much difference which dies first...unless you think TheIceMan is scum?
dkd is 65%
iceman is 20%
soo, at least let kpaca actually freaking claim first
Unvote
AI: To what extent are you willing to co-operate with the town?
If scum is lynched today I'm going to kill town.
If town is lynched today I'm going to kill vezokpiraka.
"Be the last player with a kill alive."
Apparently a lynch counts as a kill, go figure.
I am stillthinking what happens is someone has to kill me.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
That can be arranged.
I'm pretty sure kpaca is not going to post except to avoid prods. We should move ahead and lynch him or dkd.
Players needed to lynch: 4
AsianInvasion - 1 - kpaca - (L-3)
dropkickdude - 2 - vezokpiraka, TheIceMan, - (L-2)
Players not voting: AsianInvasion, dropkickdude, nacho_wizard, Ecophagy
We should not be doing anything the claimed SK wants us to be doing, just because he says so. I'm pretty sure that AI would be immune to anything that happened from Ted exploding, and we know he's immune to the Mafia NK and L+1 in order to lynch. Here's my analysis of the situation, and it isn't good:
So if we lynch Mafia we go into N6 with 3 Town, 1 Neutral, 1 SK, and 1 Mafia. AI has to go after Town otherwise he's the obvious lynch D7, and the Mafia have to go after Town because AI is immune and vez would likely kill them too. If both hit it's 1 Town, 1 Neutral, 1 SK, and 1 Mafia going into D7 at which point vez and the remaining Townie get to pick which of the scum wins. The Town only has a 1/3 chance that both AI and the scum pick the same target at which point it's 2-1-1-1 and then AI gets lynched D7. D8 is 1 Town, 1 Neutral, 0 SK, and 1 Scum at which point vez just picks one or the other and wins. Knowing this, AI will have to announce his kill, knowing he loses if they target the same guy - so we really lose anyway.
Overall Town Success Rate: 1 in 6 if for some unknown reason AI and the Mafia don't coordinate.
So if we lynch Town we go into N6 with 2-1-1-2 as the breakdown. At this point AI's only way to win is to hit vez and hope he blows up some other people. Any other scenario leaves AI as the D7 lynch. If it turns out that only vez dies and AI is immune to the blast then we start D7 with 1-0-1-2 and the Town loses regardless.
Overall Town Success Rate: 0
So if we lynch AI we go into N6 with 3-1-0-2 as the breakdown. D7 begins with 2-1-0-2, 1 mafioso outs himself and tells vez to vote with them and the Town loses, or vez's conscience gets the better of him and he votes the mafioso that outed themselves.
Overall Town Success Rate: dependant upon vez's conscience
So if we lynch vez it gets crazy. We go into N6 with a breakdown of 3-0-1-2 unless he goes supersaint on us. In this scenario, AI would be the obvious lynch if he hits Mafia because then the breakdown would be 2-0-1-1 (or 3-0-1-1 if he hits the killer), so he'll have to go after Town. The Mafia realize this and (even supposing they can) won't kill him, they'll go after Town. Which leaves D7 starting with either 1-0-1-2, or 2-0-1-2 if they both target the same guy. Either way Town loses. The only way we win after lynching a non-supersaint vez is if the Mafia kill AI N6 and AI's kill doesn't go off or hits Mafia. (And even then it's not a sure thing)
Overall Town Success Rate: dependant upon vez's role and some WIFOM, likely 0 (even if vez is a supersaint, the only way we win is if AI throws down the hammer - which he isn't going to do)
Conclusion: Our only real way of winning is to lynch AI, hope vez sides with us, and hope we can hit both Mafioso after that. (someone please tell me I'm wrong here)
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Vote dropkickdude
I'm not saying he won't simply side with the Mafia, I'm saying it's our only chance at victory at all. Please tell me where that analysis is wrong, cause I don't like relying on vez any more than the next guy.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Even if he is a supersaint, even if I agree to hammer, and even if I am scum Town still loses though...
N6 becomes 3-0-1-1, AI has to hit Town or be the lynch, Mafia has to hit Town too because you are immune. That leaves D7 1-0-1-1 or 2-0-1-1, and you win either way by being +1 to lynch. Now who's trying to engineer an easy win?
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
The only reason I'm not voting AI right now is because I'm hoping I'm wrong somewhere...
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
If the town is forced to a kingmaker position I should be their pick.
(Plus, vezokpiraka does not deserve to win this game.)
vote: ai
You don't seriously think that vezok will side with the town, do you? The only reason I could see for you to make this play is if you're scum (or bitter town, I guess).
The town's only hope of winning is lynching mafia (or possibly forcing scum to hammer vezokpiraka). Lynching me is an auto-lose.
I posted a big long analysis as to why this is wrong. Find something wrong with it or die.
Vote: AsianInvasion
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
1/6 > 0
Obv.
Hooray logic. Even if that weren't the case, there's absolutely no way a Survivor sides with the town at LyoL.