Welcome to Kingmaker Mafia. Hopefully since all of you know the rules of Kingmaker (posted in the signup thread) I do not need to repost them. As for game rules, standard rules apply. Since there is only 1 vote, voting rules are not necessary.
REMEMBER THIS IS AN OPEN SETUP
2 MAFIA
1 KINGMAKER
9 TOWNIES.
There should be no surprises regarding the setup.
Standard win conditions apply (even if there is nothing in the PM)
PLEASE CONFIRM TO PMs.
Game is going to begin with DAY!
/in or alive
1. Seppel
5. Niv
7. Nom
10. SbAzrael (replaced on day 3)
11. Loran
12. Jobie
Deaded 9. bringerofthenight lynched day 1
3. Sheep killed night 1
4. RafK lynched day 2
8. Bilb killed night 2
6. WoD lynched day 3
2. Someone killed night 3
Quick question cpe, which I think should be open since it wasn't in the signup thread: Did the Kingmaker get to choose the first king, or was it random?
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
We start the game, pretending day 1 is a normal mafia game. Everyone uses FOSes rather than votes and one person counts. At the end of the day, WoD votes the person who was "lynched."
A few advantages to this.
1. If WoD is scum, we now have a chance of still resulting a in a lynch today.
2. This will more easily allow people to see scummy behavior since it'll leave a voting trail for each player.
and 3. It's a 10 vs 2 setup, which is favorable to the town in a normal mafia game all the way.
To Start: RANDOM FOS Jobie.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
1. If WoD is scum, we now have a chance of still resulting a in a lynch today.
2. This will more easily allow people to see scummy behavior since it'll leave a voting trail for each player.
and 3. It's a 10 vs 2 setup, which is favorable to the town in a normal mafia game all the way.
To Start: RANDOM FOS Jobie.
This is dumb.
Let's start with your point #1:
Quote from cpe »
REMEMBER THIS IS AN OPEN SETUP
2 MAFIA
1 KINGMAKER
9 TOWNIES.
WoD is confirmed town.
Actually, that's all I got. Points 2 and 3 are good.
But WoD doesn't choose who to lynch. He chooses the king, who chooses who to lynch.
AND IF WE'RE GOING INTO RANDOM VOTE STAGE THEN I MUST CALL YOU OUT FOR RANDOM VOTING JOBIE AFTER I RANDOM VOTED JOBIE.
Except my random vote was because I've heard that Jobie tends to lurk and be useless.
I did the math, which is probably wrong, but if we randomly select a king and the king randomly votes anyone but the kingmaker, we have a 35% chance of winning, and that chance increases minorly (like 1 - 3%) if we get lucky and hit a scum.
It shouldn't be hard to bump that number above 50%
Actually, that's all I got. Points 2 and 3 are good.
But WoD doesn't choose who to lynch. He chooses the king, who chooses who to lynch.
AND IF WE'RE GOING INTO RANDOM VOTE STAGE THEN I MUST CALL YOU OUT FOR RANDOM VOTING JOBIE AFTER I RANDOM VOTED JOBIE.
Except my random vote was because I've heard that Jobie tends to lurk and be useless.
Wait, I thought WoD was the king, not the kingmaker. He chooses who we lynch, the kingmaker chose him.
Right?
And I disagree with loran's proposal. If we do it the way he wants, mafia still get some control of the vote. As we are now, the town ALWAYS has control of the vote.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
We start the game, pretending day 1 is a normal mafia game.
Ok...so if we're "pretending this is a normal mafia game"...
aren't you signing over your death warrant, Loran?
LAL, amirite?
-Alpha
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Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
Actually, that's all I got. Points 2 and 3 are good.
But WoD doesn't choose who to lynch. He chooses the king, who chooses who to lynch.
AND IF WE'RE GOING INTO RANDOM VOTE STAGE THEN I MUST CALL YOU OUT FOR RANDOM VOTING JOBIE AFTER I RANDOM VOTED JOBIE.
Except my random vote was because I've heard that Jobie tends to lurk and be useless.
Yeah, as Some One pointed out, you're wrong. Wod is the KING, not kingmaker. The kingmaker has not claimed at this time and therefore could be anyone not named WoD (and....probably not you).
I did the math, which is probably wrong, but if we randomly select a king and the king randomly votes anyone but the kingmaker, we have a 35% chance of winning, and that chance increases minorly (like 1 - 3%) if we get lucky and hit a scum.
It shouldn't be hard to bump that number above 50%
Random Selection is NOT HOW WE PLAY MAFIA. Also, i follow the CarrionPigeons rule of "He who quoteth numbers, is lyingeth scum." Mostly. Well not really. But seriously though, numbers involving random lynches are BAD and shouldn't be relied upon.
Wait, I thought WoD was the king, not the kingmaker. He chooses who we lynch, the kingmaker chose him.
Right?
And I disagree with loran's proposal. If we do it the way he wants, mafia still get some control of the vote. As we are now, the town ALWAYS has control of the vote.
WRONG. The kingmaker CAN MAKE SCUM KING! WoD could be scum!
Lets put it this way....the kingmaker has (sorry i'm violating my own CP rule of numbers here) a 2/11 chance (18%) of making scum King right now. So there is a 2/11 chance, not knowing anything else, that WoD is scum.....AND THE SCUM HAVE 100% control of the vote!
Yep, that's a good situation for the town. On the flipside, WoD could be town. But then you're trusting ONLY his judgment to lynch, and WoD could be fantastically wrong (I also don't consider him better than an average player, so seriously...this isn't helping).
So the question is what's better:
1. Letting either mafia completely control the lynch or one specific townie control the lynch
or
2. Letting the players control the lynch as normal.
Once again, TAKE NOTE, that with #2 we get more information as to others' alignments on at least day 1.
FOR NOW, I propose this at least just for Day1....as the days go on, we can obviously change this around as the town gleans more information.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
Seppel screwed up and thought WoD was kingmaker. RTFRules.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I did the math, which is probably wrong, but if we randomly select a king and the king randomly votes anyone but the kingmaker, we have a 35% chance of winning, and that chance increases minorly (like 1 - 3%) if we get lucky and hit a scum.
It shouldn't be hard to bump that number above 50%
Correction: I tend to lurk as scum or if I'm busy in RL.
I don't see what your adversion to Loran's plan is. It actually makes sense. FOS: Seppel the amount of misinformation so far is stunning.
I think he actually agreed with my plan, for the record. Just saying.
WoD, i assume you're not going to do anything rash. thoughts on my proposal?
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I have no legitimate qualms with LOLOLOLoran's plan.
I just wanted to point out something that in retrospect is not as lulz-worthy.
Question though. Do you mean that we should just do this for Day 1? That's what I'm getting from your wording.
-Alpha
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
Kingmaker = ? (and should not claim unless highly likely to be executed). Kingmaker is guaranteed town. It's nice for the Kingmaker to be secret, since the Kingmaker being wagonned by scum will backfire, and the Kingmaker being nightkilled will automagically confirm another townie down the line.
Kingmaker chooses the King, currently WoD. King can be town or scum, depending on how good at guessing the Kingmaker is. Once we get closer to an execution the King should provide a shortlist (since this is a mini, no more than 2 or 3 people) he/she is willing to execute, to focus discussion and give the Kingmaker a chance to claim out. I don't suggest making the execution choice completely vote-based, although a King going against a strong majority would want good reasons... the King should be somewhat accountable for the final decision. There's no night choices here, so the only way to get people is via their behaviour, voting and execution choices... letting people slide on any of that stuff is not an option.
Just re-read the bottom of your second post on the subject, Loran.
Raf, can you elaborate on "not making the executions completely vote-based"?
What do you propose?
-Alpha
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
Okay. Now that I understand the rules properly, I'm fine with loran's proposal.
However, I think the kingmaker should most definitely claim. Why? Because he or she is a guaranteed innocent.
Case 1:
The kingmaker comes out and is counterclaimed.
Then we're good. We go 1-1 with the kingmaker and mafia, and in a 12 person with 2 mafia, this puts us in the green.
Case 2:
The kingmaker comes out and is not counterclaimed.
Then we're also good. We have a confirmed innocent who can help guide us and we can trust completely. Helps give us a leg up on the scum, since there is one person whose analysis--while not guaranteed to be good--is guaranteed to not be mafia.
Case 2a: The kingmaker is killed that night.
Then we're good. We have a new confirmed innocent and we return to the above.
Case 2b: The kingmaker is not killed that night.
The we're also good. We have a still-confirmed kingmaker, and we're where we were at case 2 yesterday.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
If Niv had died (been killed by the scum), ANOTHER player would become kingmaker. That player would HAVE TO BE TOWN AND THUS BE CONFIRMED.
NOW, Niv will remain alive all game.
GOd. Freaking morons.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Screw it, I suspect Nom's just a moron and not being malicious, but FOS Nom Anor for being a moron.
Scenario #1: Improbable.
Scenario #2: One Confirmed Innocent now who has no more info than the rest of us is not necessarily better than that confirmed innocent coming out later....when people may have attacked him earlier. more info is gleaned from attacks on a confirmable innocent than just him coming out, duh. Even ignoring that innocent dying and clearing another person.
Scenario 3: Won't ever happen if he claims, like he did.
Scenario 4: Still worse than it would be.
Jeez.
Flame infraction for this and the previous post.
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
The anger in this post is contradictory. You are saying you are upset that Niv will now be alive all game, however, it's a safe bet he wouldn't be NKed. Thus, it's irrelevant to discuss the facts as if he were to ever be nightkilled because he would never be nightkilled. Thus, a town-confirmed Niv, a player who is more likely to be lynched than a "power-player" is fine.
The anger in this post is contradictory. You are saying you are upset that Niv will now be alive all game, however, it's a safe bet he wouldn't be NKed. Thus, it's irrelevant to discuss the facts as if he were to ever be nightkilled because he would never be nightkilled. Thus, a town-confirmed Niv, a player who is more likely to be lynched than a "power-player" is fine.
No, the anger i feel in that post is due to my meta-beliefs (Niv is a poor player whose play annoys me to no end in some part due to its poorness and in some part due to his playing style).
The anger i felt before was because Niv WASTED THIS.
Some One, you should understand my previous posts' anger, its KIND OF OBVIOUS (and i know you're a smart fellow). If you're a townie who can confirm yourself at will (as Niv was), you don't confirm yourself at the start, but rather you wait for a while until its advantageous to do so (see my own play in RottK, for a non-so-intentional, but perfect example). Niv is totally likely to be wagoned in any game, and we could've gleaned information from that wagon without it resulting in a mislynch. Totally a good thing.
Similarly, while you're right, the likelihood of Niv being NKed by the mafia was basically near 0, it was NOT 0, and thus Niv has basically ruined that chance of improving the town's survival.
Needless to say, it should be obvious Niv was stupid in this decision, which he made unilaterally. If he felt he should've claimed he shouldve done like Nom Anor and made a post outlining the benefits of the Kingmaker claiming.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
So we have Niv, who claims to be kingmaker. Then we have DoW, who is currently king. Thus we have DoW who will be the one voting to lynch for the day. If Niv is the kingmaker, and made a correct guess, and didn't pick scum, then we have a townie voting who has the sole choice of who to lynch, and he will have no more information then us, so we would have someone who could quickly vote for anyone, or specifically as someone he believes to be mafia, while if he picked scum, then they will either pick a random person, that is a townie, or will spend a ton of time deliberating. Thus I believe we should pick someone who is not holding a grudge, or someone who is willing to take a vote.
So kingmaker needs to decide on who is willing to take a vote, and who is just going to kill whoever he fells like, either acting out a grudge, or some other detail, or someone who will vote on who he believes the scum are, and of course if we picked a scum over and over again as king, town doesn't stand much of a chance.. The kingmaker needs to carefully switch between the two types of people, avoiding both who the mafia is, and people who will lynch on a whim, so the town can get something productive done.
Loran. Stop, think for a minute from my perspectave.
I am one of the Worst players on the Site. I know it, I admit it. I will NEVER get NKED as a vanilla town. If I ever get wagoned, I will generally be for a ligitamate reason. so as far as I know, there is no reason for me to not claim. all it does is save the town from wagoning me, and learning very little in the process.
also, Can we try to not jump straight to the Adhom.
Loran. Stop, think for a minute from my perspectave.
I am one of the Worst players on the Site. I know it, I admit it. I will NEVER get NKED as a vanilla town. If I ever get wagoned, I will generally be for a ligitamate reason. so as far as I know, there is no reason for me to not claim. all it does is save the town from wagoning me, and learning very little in the process.
also, Can we try to not jump straight to the Adhom.
Thanks
-Niv
Niv, please think about this for a second from an intelligent standpoint.
When someone gets wagoned, there is information to be had there, especially if it's on an easily confirmed townie (i.e. mod-confirmed ITT, cop, vig, etc.). Therefore, outright claiming, when you're going to get wagoned is downright detrimental to the town. "Saving the town from wagoning you" is a ******** reason for doing that when there is information to be had.
Also, can we not ask someone to lay off the adhoms when you've made an obviously idiotic move?
If I had the vote, you'd be dead already,
-Jobie
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We get another confirmed townie, maybe someone that'd be useful to have confirmed.
and how would that, Hypothetically make up for wasting the shot today on a 100% confirmed townie.
I don't care how "useless" I am. I'm town 100%. even if Wod just blindly fired at someone else. atleast there is a 2/10 chance that WoD will hit scum shooting elsewhere.
wasting a day killing a "useless confirmed townie" in a Vanilla open game, is posible the worst play anyone could make. worse than me claiming. worse than anything.
Some One, you should understand my previous posts' anger, its KIND OF OBVIOUS (and i know you're a smart fellow).
You, of all people, know how enraged I can get... That being said, what is flaming/harping-on-the-obviously-very-stupid-play going to do? What's done is done - all you can do is move on. But I think we're left with a loran who is solidly in the town slot because I couldn't possibly imagine him putting on an act here - there's just no way he would pull a flame-infractable post out of thin air like that.
Giving us someone more competent behind the wheel of Kingmaker allows us to have a decent King choice and giving us another confirmed townie, does actually help.
By no means am I actually lobbying for Niv's lynch, I'm just saying right know with Niv "behind the wheel" is like cutting Helen Keller's arms off and having her drive a Formula 1 car at Mazda Laguna Seca.
@NIV: Legitimate question this time, Why did you pick WoD for King?
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Giving us someone more competent behind the wheel of Kingmaker allows us to have a decent King choice and giving us another confirmed townie, does actually help.
By no means am I actually lobbying for Niv's lynch, I'm just saying right know with Niv "behind the wheel" is like cutting Helen Keller's arms off and having her drive a Formula 1 car at Mazda Laguna Seca.
@NIV: Legitimate question this time, Why did you pick WoD for King?
First off, Thanks for the Sig Quote.
Second.
Picked WoD beacuse I know that he won't let Day one end in a stalemate. if it gets to a point where day one is draging on, h'ell pull the trigger. I have always had a problem with over lenght Day ones. oh and fond recent memories of an ongoing game. (I thought about Giving it to RafK, but the thought of a scum Rafk controling Day one scared me)
Picked WoD beacuse I know that he won't let Day one end in a stalemate. if it gets to a point where day one is draging on, h'ell pull the trigger. I have always had a problem with over lenght Day ones. oh and fond recent memories of an ongoing game. (I thought about Giving it to RafK, but the thought of a scum Rafk controling Day one scared me)
I certainly will.
Right now I dislike Jobie. He is not lurking, which differs VASTLY from his usual play, and is advocating the lynch of a confirmed townie.
Congratulations, you're my current Default Lynch Target.
Right now I dislike Jobie. He is not lurking, which differs VASTLY from his usual play, and is advocating the lynch of a confirmed townie.
Congratulations, you're my current Default Lynch Target.
FOS Jobie.
So because I'm being brash and calling out a stupid play, you think I'm scum, as opposed to my usual, "If I don't draw attention to myself, people will just think I'm town" scum approach, you think I'm scum?
I just can't win.
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So because I'm being brash and calling out a stupid play, you think I'm scum, as opposed to my usual, "If I don't draw attention to myself, people will just think I'm town" scum approach, you think I'm scum?
I just can't win.
The part about lurking was actually a joke.
It's the second part which earned you a FOS. And you're doing more than calling out a stupid play, you're calling for his lynch. Despite the fact that he's blatantly, stupidly, town.
Lynching a confirmed townie is never a good play, unless their death triggers something or whatever.
No, the anger i feel in that post is due to my meta-beliefs (Niv is a poor player whose play annoys me to no end in some part due to its poorness and in some part due to his playing style).
The anger i felt before was because Niv WASTED THIS.
Some One, you should understand my previous posts' anger, its KIND OF OBVIOUS (and i know you're a smart fellow). If you're a townie who can confirm yourself at will (as Niv was), you don't confirm yourself at the start, but rather you wait for a while until its advantageous to do so (see my own play in RottK, for a non-so-intentional, but perfect example). Niv is totally likely to be wagoned in any game, and we could've gleaned information from that wagon without it resulting in a mislynch. Totally a good thing.
Similarly, while you're right, the likelihood of Niv being NKed by the mafia was basically near 0, it was NOT 0, and thus Niv has basically ruined that chance of improving the town's survival.
Needless to say, it should be obvious Niv was stupid in this decision, which he made unilaterally. If he felt he should've claimed he shouldve done like Nom Anor and made a post outlining the benefits of the Kingmaker claiming.
==================================
Loran, I disagree. Perhaps this may not have been the best possible situation, but I don't think it is a strategy wrong in principal.
Let's say instead of Niv, the kingmaker had been DYH. Am I not correct in thinking you would be considerably less angry if the kingmaker had been DYH and he'd come out immediately? I think in the case of an exceptional player like DYH, the benefits of having been confirmed would be far greater than the chance of DYH getting wagoned and also getting info from the wagon. In a case like this, we would have gotten a day of good analysis form DYH, and he would have been killed that night.
How about if the kingmaker had been an average player, say WOD or Someone. Then we would have had a decent player who may or may not have gotten wagoned over the course of the game. I think having a guaranteed innocent from the start would still have been more beneficial than the possibility of that player getting wagoned day 1 and having to claim. It would certainly be better for that to happen, but what if instead, it had been day 2 before the kingmaker were wagoned. I'd rather have had the guaranteed analysis day 1 than the absence of it day 1 and a wagon to analyze day 2.
So it isn't because it's a bad strategy in general you're so angry, it's because the kingmaker was a player you think:
1. Is not going to provide crucial analysis.
2. Would have gotten wagoned quickly, giving us things to analyze.
On one last note, you mention your play in Rotk, but there is one important difference between a standard mafia setup and what we're in now: if you came out early, you would have gotten NK'ed, so there was significant advantage to you waiting until you got wagoned.
So perhaps it came out badly in this case, but I disagree it's a bad strategy in general.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
So we have Niv, who claims to be kingmaker. Then we have DoW, who is currently king. Thus we have DoW who will be the one voting to lynch for the day. If Niv is the kingmaker, and made a correct guess, and didn't pick scum, then we have a townie voting who has the sole choice of who to lynch, and he will have no more information then us, so we would have someone who could quickly vote for anyone, or specifically as someone he believes to be mafia, while if he picked scum, then they will either pick a random person, that is a townie, or will spend a ton of time deliberating. Thus I believe we should pick someone who is not holding a grudge, or someone who is willing to take a vote.
So kingmaker needs to decide on who is willing to take a vote, and who is just going to kill whoever he fells like, either acting out a grudge, or some other detail, or someone who will vote on who he believes the scum are, and of course if we picked a scum over and over again as king, town doesn't stand much of a chance.. The kingmaker needs to carefully switch between the two types of people, avoiding both who the mafia is, and people who will lynch on a whim, so the town can get something productive done.
Bringer, could you rephrase this post and explain what you're talking about here? I'm genuinely curious.
Also its WrathofDog, not DogofWrath. (In retrospect, DogOfWrath is such a cooler name...)
and how would that, Hypothetically make up for wasting the shot today on a 100% confirmed townie.
I don't care how "useless" I am. I'm town 100%. even if Wod just blindly fired at someone else. atleast there is a 2/10 chance that WoD will hit scum shooting elsewhere.
wasting a day killing a "useless confirmed townie" in a Vanilla open game, is posible the worst play anyone could make. worse than me claiming. worse than anything.
...NO ONE is proposing killing you. Also, The 2/10 number is a bit off. Remember if WoD is SCUM, then he's going to lynch a townie regardless of your efforts.
You, of all people, know how enraged I can get... That being said, what is flaming/harping-on-the-obviously-very-stupid-play going to do? What's done is done - all you can do is move on. But I think we're left with a loran who is solidly in the town slot because I couldn't possibly imagine him putting on an act here - there's just no way he would pull a flame-infractable post out of thin air like that.
I've flamed before as scum. Granted, when i did so it was due to the actions of another scum player...but still.
Loran, I disagree. Perhaps this may not have been the best possible situation, but I don't think it is a strategy wrong in principal.
Let's say instead of Niv, the kingmaker had been DYH. Am I not correct in thinking you would be considerably less angry if the kingmaker had been DYH and he'd come out immediately?
Still no. I'd be less angry if only cuz we'd have an invincible DYH, but still would rather DYH stay in the shadows. The town is better off if the confirmable townie not reveal himself until necessary.
I think in the case of an exceptional player like DYH, the benefits of having been confirmed would be far greater than the chance of DYH getting wagoned and also getting info from the wagon. In a case like this, we would have gotten a day of good analysis form DYH, and he would have been killed that night.
Still wrong imo. First of all, no one's going to reject analysis by DYH if he's not confirmed (he's still DYH, his logic is STILL good). Second, if by some chance there was a wagon on DYH, we'd learn a pretty good amount of info there as well (probably more than a wagon on Niv, but thats besides the point).
How about if the kingmaker had been an average player, say WOD or Someone. Then we would have had a decent player who may or may not have gotten wagoned over the course of the game. I think having a guaranteed innocent from the start would still have been more beneficial than the possibility of that player getting wagoned day 1 and having to claim. It would certainly be better for that to happen, but what if instead, it had been day 2 before the kingmaker were wagoned. I'd rather have had the guaranteed analysis day 1 than the absence of it day 1 and a wagon to analyze day 2.
I consider SomeOne definitely an above-average player, myself.
And once again, what BENEFIT is it to have a guy guarenteed from the start or do have him have to claim upon being wagoned?
Seriously....it's not like we should treat a confirmed townie's words any differently than the rest of us, HE HAS NO INSIDE INFORMATION! Zip! Nada! Zilch! Now if he gets wagoned and then comes out, we can see how people react to him coming out, we can see how people attacked him in the first place, and we can see who were the people who avoided the wagon?
A wagon that has ZERO chance of losing a townie is not a bad thing, but a good thing! And having it not happen on day 1 doesn't make it better!
Having a player confirmed, ANY PLAYER, does not give the town an edge other than...lowering the amount of lynch targets. And remember, that player can confirm himself at any time...so while it may not be known publically that he's non-lynchable, IT IS ESSENTIALLY THE SAME!
So it isn't because it's a bad strategy in general you're so angry, it's because the kingmaker was a player you think:
1. Is not going to provide crucial analysis.
2. Would have gotten wagoned quickly, giving us things to analyze.
On one last note, you mention your play in Rotk, but there is one important difference between a standard mafia setup and what we're in now: if you came out early, you would have gotten NK'ed, so there was significant advantage to you waiting until you got wagoned.
So perhaps it came out badly in this case, but I disagree it's a bad strategy in general.
Ooh you read RottK? Proud of you. Now if you just changed your name so it wouldn't reference any star wars stuff after The Hand of Thrawn Trilogy [/tangent]
errr, wait, no I DO THINK ITS A TERRIBLE STRATEGY IN GENERAL. Like i said, I'm ALSO upset that it's Niv due to the handicap that places us in, but as Someone said, what's done is done
=========================
@WoD, i don't think Jobie is advocating Niv's lynch, as much as he's being annoyed by Niv's stupidity.
Anyhow, BRINGER, can you rephrase your last post? I'm very curious.
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Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
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REMEMBER THIS IS AN OPEN SETUP
2 MAFIA
1 KINGMAKER
9 TOWNIES.
There should be no surprises regarding the setup.
Standard win conditions apply (even if there is nothing in the PM)
PLEASE CONFIRM TO PMs.
Game is going to begin with DAY!
/in or alive
1. Seppel
5. Niv
7. Nom
10.
SbAzrael (replaced on day 3)11. Loran
12. Jobie
Deaded
9. bringerofthenight lynched day 1
3. Sheep killed night 1
4. RafK lynched day 2
8. Bilb killed night 2
6. WoD lynched day 3
2. Someone killed night 3
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MAKE ME KING, I'LL GO AEZWOLGY except I'm totally awesome at hunting scum.
THIS WILL BE EXCITING.
Vote: WOD
Kill the king!!! (even if my vote doesn't matter)
We start the game, pretending day 1 is a normal mafia game. Everyone uses FOSes rather than votes and one person counts. At the end of the day, WoD votes the person who was "lynched."
A few advantages to this.
1. If WoD is scum, we now have a chance of still resulting a in a lynch today.
2. This will more easily allow people to see scummy behavior since it'll leave a voting trail for each player.
and 3. It's a 10 vs 2 setup, which is favorable to the town in a normal mafia game all the way.
To Start: RANDOM FOS Jobie.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
This is dumb.
Let's start with your point #1:
WoD is confirmed town.
Actually, that's all I got. Points 2 and 3 are good.
But WoD doesn't choose who to lynch. He chooses the king, who chooses who to lynch.
AND IF WE'RE GOING INTO RANDOM VOTE STAGE THEN I MUST CALL YOU OUT FOR RANDOM VOTING JOBIE AFTER I RANDOM VOTED JOBIE.
Except my random vote was because I've heard that Jobie tends to lurk and be useless.
It shouldn't be hard to bump that number above 50%
Wait, I thought WoD was the king, not the kingmaker. He chooses who we lynch, the kingmaker chose him.
Right?
And I disagree with loran's proposal. If we do it the way he wants, mafia still get some control of the vote. As we are now, the town ALWAYS has control of the vote.
I wish you would stop doing that.
I'm the best mafia player ever.
It says so in my title oh wait
Ok...so if we're "pretending this is a normal mafia game"...
aren't you signing over your death warrant, Loran?
LAL, amirite?
-Alpha
Yeah, as Some One pointed out, you're wrong. Wod is the KING, not kingmaker. The kingmaker has not claimed at this time and therefore could be anyone not named WoD (and....probably not you).
Random Selection is NOT HOW WE PLAY MAFIA. Also, i follow the CarrionPigeons rule of "He who quoteth numbers, is lyingeth scum." Mostly. Well not really. But seriously though, numbers involving random lynches are BAD and shouldn't be relied upon.
WRONG. The kingmaker CAN MAKE SCUM KING! WoD could be scum!
Lets put it this way....the kingmaker has (sorry i'm violating my own CP rule of numbers here) a 2/11 chance (18%) of making scum King right now. So there is a 2/11 chance, not knowing anything else, that WoD is scum.....AND THE SCUM HAVE 100% control of the vote!
Yep, that's a good situation for the town. On the flipside, WoD could be town. But then you're trusting ONLY his judgment to lynch, and WoD could be fantastically wrong (I also don't consider him better than an average player, so seriously...this isn't helping).
So the question is what's better:
1. Letting either mafia completely control the lynch or one specific townie control the lynch
or
2. Letting the players control the lynch as normal.
Once again, TAKE NOTE, that with #2 we get more information as to others' alignments on at least day 1.
FOR NOW, I propose this at least just for Day1....as the days go on, we can obviously change this around as the town gleans more information.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
THE KING CAN BE MAFIA.
Seppel screwed up and thought WoD was kingmaker. RTFRules.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
And when CP uses math, he's mafia.
So, you feeling lucky?
Correction: I tend to lurk as scum or if I'm busy in RL.
I don't see what your adversion to Loran's plan is. It actually makes sense. FOS: Seppel the amount of misinformation so far is stunning.
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I think he actually agreed with my plan, for the record. Just saying.
WoD, i assume you're not going to do anything rash. thoughts on my proposal?
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Many thanks to Sgt. Chubbz of Damnation studios.
I just wanted to point out something that in retrospect is not as lulz-worthy.
Question though. Do you mean that we should just do this for Day 1? That's what I'm getting from your wording.
-Alpha
Kingmaker chooses the King, currently WoD. King can be town or scum, depending on how good at guessing the Kingmaker is. Once we get closer to an execution the King should provide a shortlist (since this is a mini, no more than 2 or 3 people) he/she is willing to execute, to focus discussion and give the Kingmaker a chance to claim out. I don't suggest making the execution choice completely vote-based, although a King going against a strong majority would want good reasons... the King should be somewhat accountable for the final decision. There's no night choices here, so the only way to get people is via their behaviour, voting and execution choices... letting people slide on any of that stuff is not an option.
????
Profit
Just re-read the bottom of your second post on the subject, Loran.
Raf, can you elaborate on "not making the executions completely vote-based"?
What do you propose?
-Alpha
However, I think the kingmaker should most definitely claim. Why? Because he or she is a guaranteed innocent.
Case 1:
The kingmaker comes out and is counterclaimed.
Then we're good. We go 1-1 with the kingmaker and mafia, and in a 12 person with 2 mafia, this puts us in the green.
Case 2:
The kingmaker comes out and is not counterclaimed.
Then we're also good. We have a confirmed innocent who can help guide us and we can trust completely. Helps give us a leg up on the scum, since there is one person whose analysis--while not guaranteed to be good--is guaranteed to not be mafia.
Case 2a:
The kingmaker is killed that night.
Then we're good. We have a new confirmed innocent and we return to the above.
Case 2b:
The kingmaker is not killed that night.
The we're also good. We have a still-confirmed kingmaker, and we're where we were at case 2 yesterday.
I'm the kingmaker.
more confirmed town is good
in other news FoS Seppel. seriously, all that misinformation. seriously, this variant isn't confusing. your just trying to confuse the town
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
YOU ****ING IDIOT....WHY THE HELL DID YOU CLAIM.
==============================
HERES HOW KINGMAKER WORKS.
If Niv had died (been killed by the scum), ANOTHER player would become kingmaker. That player would HAVE TO BE TOWN AND THUS BE CONFIRMED.
NOW, Niv will remain alive all game.
GOd. Freaking morons.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Scenario #1: Improbable.
Scenario #2: One Confirmed Innocent now who has no more info than the rest of us is not necessarily better than that confirmed innocent coming out later....when people may have attacked him earlier. more info is gleaned from attacks on a confirmable innocent than just him coming out, duh. Even ignoring that innocent dying and clearing another person.
Scenario 3: Won't ever happen if he claims, like he did.
Scenario 4: Still worse than it would be.
Jeez.
Flame infraction for this and the previous post.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
The anger in this post is contradictory. You are saying you are upset that Niv will now be alive all game, however, it's a safe bet he wouldn't be NKed. Thus, it's irrelevant to discuss the facts as if he were to ever be nightkilled because he would never be nightkilled. Thus, a town-confirmed Niv, a player who is more likely to be lynched than a "power-player" is fine.
No, the anger i feel in that post is due to my meta-beliefs (Niv is a poor player whose play annoys me to no end in some part due to its poorness and in some part due to his playing style).
The anger i felt before was because Niv WASTED THIS.
Some One, you should understand my previous posts' anger, its KIND OF OBVIOUS (and i know you're a smart fellow). If you're a townie who can confirm yourself at will (as Niv was), you don't confirm yourself at the start, but rather you wait for a while until its advantageous to do so (see my own play in RottK, for a non-so-intentional, but perfect example). Niv is totally likely to be wagoned in any game, and we could've gleaned information from that wagon without it resulting in a mislynch. Totally a good thing.
Similarly, while you're right, the likelihood of Niv being NKed by the mafia was basically near 0, it was NOT 0, and thus Niv has basically ruined that chance of improving the town's survival.
Needless to say, it should be obvious Niv was stupid in this decision, which he made unilaterally. If he felt he should've claimed he shouldve done like Nom Anor and made a post outlining the benefits of the Kingmaker claiming.
==================================
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
So kingmaker needs to decide on who is willing to take a vote, and who is just going to kill whoever he fells like, either acting out a grudge, or some other detail, or someone who will vote on who he believes the scum are, and of course if we picked a scum over and over again as king, town doesn't stand much of a chance.. The kingmaker needs to carefully switch between the two types of people, avoiding both who the mafia is, and people who will lynch on a whim, so the town can get something productive done.
I am one of the Worst players on the Site. I know it, I admit it. I will NEVER get NKED as a vanilla town. If I ever get wagoned, I will generally be for a ligitamate reason. so as far as I know, there is no reason for me to not claim. all it does is save the town from wagoning me, and learning very little in the process.
also, Can we try to not jump straight to the Adhom.
Thanks
-Niv
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
Well, you need something to do.
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
When someone gets wagoned, there is information to be had there, especially if it's on an easily confirmed townie (i.e. mod-confirmed ITT, cop, vig, etc.). Therefore, outright claiming, when you're going to get wagoned is downright detrimental to the town. "Saving the town from wagoning you" is a ******** reason for doing that when there is information to be had.
Also, can we not ask someone to lay off the adhoms when you've made an obviously idiotic move?
If I had the vote, you'd be dead already,
-Jobie
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'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
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that's nice, all I am is Termanally stupid, and town. killing me helps how?
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
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'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
and how would that, Hypothetically make up for wasting the shot today on a 100% confirmed townie.
I don't care how "useless" I am. I'm town 100%. even if Wod just blindly fired at someone else. atleast there is a 2/10 chance that WoD will hit scum shooting elsewhere.
wasting a day killing a "useless confirmed townie" in a Vanilla open game, is posible the worst play anyone could make. worse than me claiming. worse than anything.
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
You, of all people, know how enraged I can get... That being said, what is flaming/harping-on-the-obviously-very-stupid-play going to do? What's done is done - all you can do is move on. But I think we're left with a loran who is solidly in the town slot because I couldn't possibly imagine him putting on an act here - there's just no way he would pull a flame-infractable post out of thin air like that.
By no means am I actually lobbying for Niv's lynch, I'm just saying right know with Niv "behind the wheel" is like cutting Helen Keller's arms off and having her drive a Formula 1 car at Mazda Laguna Seca.
@NIV: Legitimate question this time, Why did you pick WoD for King?
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First off, Thanks for the Sig Quote.
Second.
Picked WoD beacuse I know that he won't let Day one end in a stalemate. if it gets to a point where day one is draging on, h'ell pull the trigger. I have always had a problem with over lenght Day ones. oh and fond recent memories of an ongoing game. (I thought about Giving it to RafK, but the thought of a scum Rafk controling Day one scared me)
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
I certainly will.
Right now I dislike Jobie. He is not lurking, which differs VASTLY from his usual play, and is advocating the lynch of a confirmed townie.
Congratulations, you're my current Default Lynch Target.
FOS Jobie.
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
Each facepalm for a unique justifiable reason in the post above.
I just can't win.
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It's the second part which earned you a FOS. And you're doing more than calling out a stupid play, you're calling for his lynch. Despite the fact that he's blatantly, stupidly, town.
Lynching a confirmed townie is never a good play, unless their death triggers something or whatever.
Loran, I disagree. Perhaps this may not have been the best possible situation, but I don't think it is a strategy wrong in principal.
Let's say instead of Niv, the kingmaker had been DYH. Am I not correct in thinking you would be considerably less angry if the kingmaker had been DYH and he'd come out immediately? I think in the case of an exceptional player like DYH, the benefits of having been confirmed would be far greater than the chance of DYH getting wagoned and also getting info from the wagon. In a case like this, we would have gotten a day of good analysis form DYH, and he would have been killed that night.
How about if the kingmaker had been an average player, say WOD or Someone. Then we would have had a decent player who may or may not have gotten wagoned over the course of the game. I think having a guaranteed innocent from the start would still have been more beneficial than the possibility of that player getting wagoned day 1 and having to claim. It would certainly be better for that to happen, but what if instead, it had been day 2 before the kingmaker were wagoned. I'd rather have had the guaranteed analysis day 1 than the absence of it day 1 and a wagon to analyze day 2.
So it isn't because it's a bad strategy in general you're so angry, it's because the kingmaker was a player you think:
1. Is not going to provide crucial analysis.
2. Would have gotten wagoned quickly, giving us things to analyze.
On one last note, you mention your play in Rotk, but there is one important difference between a standard mafia setup and what we're in now: if you came out early, you would have gotten NK'ed, so there was significant advantage to you waiting until you got wagoned.
So perhaps it came out badly in this case, but I disagree it's a bad strategy in general.
Bringer, could you rephrase this post and explain what you're talking about here? I'm genuinely curious.
Also its WrathofDog, not DogofWrath. (In retrospect, DogOfWrath is such a cooler name...)
...NO ONE is proposing killing you. Also, The 2/10 number is a bit off. Remember if WoD is SCUM, then he's going to lynch a townie regardless of your efforts.
I've flamed before as scum. Granted, when i did so it was due to the actions of another scum player...but still.
Wait, why am i arguing this?
Still no. I'd be less angry if only cuz we'd have an invincible DYH, but still would rather DYH stay in the shadows. The town is better off if the confirmable townie not reveal himself until necessary.
Still wrong imo. First of all, no one's going to reject analysis by DYH if he's not confirmed (he's still DYH, his logic is STILL good). Second, if by some chance there was a wagon on DYH, we'd learn a pretty good amount of info there as well (probably more than a wagon on Niv, but thats besides the point).
I consider SomeOne definitely an above-average player, myself.
And once again, what BENEFIT is it to have a guy guarenteed from the start or do have him have to claim upon being wagoned?
Seriously....it's not like we should treat a confirmed townie's words any differently than the rest of us, HE HAS NO INSIDE INFORMATION! Zip! Nada! Zilch! Now if he gets wagoned and then comes out, we can see how people react to him coming out, we can see how people attacked him in the first place, and we can see who were the people who avoided the wagon?
A wagon that has ZERO chance of losing a townie is not a bad thing, but a good thing! And having it not happen on day 1 doesn't make it better!
Having a player confirmed, ANY PLAYER, does not give the town an edge other than...lowering the amount of lynch targets. And remember, that player can confirm himself at any time...so while it may not be known publically that he's non-lynchable, IT IS ESSENTIALLY THE SAME!
Ooh you read RottK? Proud of you. Now if you just changed your name so it wouldn't reference any star wars stuff after The Hand of Thrawn Trilogy [/tangent]
errr, wait, no I DO THINK ITS A TERRIBLE STRATEGY IN GENERAL. Like i said, I'm ALSO upset that it's Niv due to the handicap that places us in, but as Someone said, what's done is done
=========================
@WoD, i don't think Jobie is advocating Niv's lynch, as much as he's being annoyed by Niv's stupidity.
Anyhow, BRINGER, can you rephrase your last post? I'm very curious.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity