Leading the witness, your honor. (i.e. man, that's a scummy way to phrase that)
Cross Examination, your honor. I'm entitled to cross examination, as opposing counsel would know if he stopped watching law & order.
In all seriousness, how so?
Nice misrep.
First of all, no, not "all of a sudden." What I said earlier was that I had doubts, did a re-read, and came to no conclusion either way. In other words, I have neither any particular faith or doubt in DYH. I'm fairly neutral on him at the moment, and that isn't "all of a sudden" at all.
Second, what does DYH have to do with it anyway? The arguement is sound. Even if DYH was scum, it's entirely possible he was bussing. DYH's alignment is, in my eyes, completely independent of Cyan's.
419 and 437 make it sound like you have doubts about your read of DYH. Doesn't mean that you can't be neutral on him (I'm neutral on Tilde atm but that's mainly due to having no clue on how to read him). Anyhow, I thought your doubts on DYH also meant you had doubts on Cyan (Hence the unvote) and thus was the reason you were pursuing other leads.
Better Question, why back to Cyan now? What changed? Seriously, I should pose this question to everyone who dropped off the wagon and then just jumped back on, but CC will do for now.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
EBWODP: Man i suck at typing jokes. Should say "I'm entitled to lead the witness on cross examination...."
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
The problem I have is that the only thing to 'talk about', at this point, is my wagon and what I don't like about it. And that never works out well for anyone.
Whatever, I'll just claim so we can move on. Maybe then you guys will believe what I was saying all along.
I am Elastigirl. My flexibility allows me to be untargetable.
Cross Examination, your honor. I'm entitled to cross examination, as opposing counsel would know if he stopped watching law & order.
In all seriousness, how so?
419 and 437 make it sound like you have doubts about your read of DYH. Doesn't mean that you can't be neutral on him (I'm neutral on Tilde atm but that's mainly due to having no clue on how to read him). Anyhow, I thought your doubts on DYH also meant you had doubts on Cyan (Hence the unvote) and thus was the reason you were pursuing other leads.
Better Question, why back to Cyan now? What changed? Seriously, I should pose this question to everyone who dropped off the wagon and then just jumped back on, but CC will do for now.
Already said, his attempts at attacks after his wagon were half-assed. Low aggresion early game is one thing, but of all the tiny things that Cyan has jumped on people for, to not be able to find anything at this point is very telling.
Aaaaand the claim gives me no reason to not want to see Cyan swing.
(--!, this is a really cruddy post. Cyan has been really aggressive on Dagger, was on Numegil…what do you mean non-aggression? Also, while he commits to a vote, he still brings up two other targets and they’re cruddy easy ones. Very little effort went into this post in terms of actual reading in the thread (Even misidentifies infinis as Roja))
Post 463 is really the thing that puts him as scum in my eyes. The accusation against Cyan is beyond lazy and for the most part untrue at that point (Cyan's past 4 posts at that point were a vote of Dagger, a vote of Numegil, a correction at Tilde and a thought on RR). Only the post on RR could possible be construed as a nonaggressive post really, and it seems rather obvious to me that TMT just recycled the old accusation in order to vote Cyan again. He also includes Tilde and Jql in the same post, and while im not sure of their alignments, it seems like he's keeping his options open on likely lynch targets, as both players are well...so bad in their play i wouldn't be surprised if a wagon followed them at any time (particularly jql).
Plus his other votes in this game have been poor as well (an early one of SomeOne for the DYH vote, a vote of Jql, etc) It just looks like he's trying to get a lynch on easy targets, made up an excuse to rejoin the cyan wagon and is sort of hiding behind is 3rd person "PR" (Which is bunk considering he slips in and out of it.)
The tension builds. Our fearless hero locks eyes with loran16. Time seems to stand still. With blinding speed, loran16 strikes! TMT braces himself for the initial assault and prepares his counterattack.
My accusation is untrue, you say? Hardly! Cyan's post on Dagger was an attack, yes, but hardly as abrasive as one would expect from Cyan. The other three posts are small and mostly insignificant, and not what you'd call aggressive. "RR's post looks bad, but I don't think it's scummy." To say my accusation is "untrue" is disingenuous at best.
My other two targets are "cruddy easy ones"? This kind of attack is weak, and reeks of sinister motives. If a player does something obviously suspicious or scummy, there is nothing wrong at all with pointing it out. You criticize the Cyan wagon for being based on meta and not scummy behavior (conveniently ignoring the lurking, which indeed is scummy), yet when I point out scummy behavior in other players you cry "Oh look, he's attacking easy targets!" Your attack here is a double standard, a pitiful attempt to tarnish my good name.
And hiding behind a PR? Hah! No one tells TMT how to post! And I do not hide from danger; I face it with the courage of a true hero! So what if I am prone to self-narration? What good hero's story is unnarrated?
I stand behind my vote on Cyan. His normally abrasive tone has only showed up when confronted. His attacks on players other than his attackers have been tame by comparison. His posting level is much lower than I would expect from him, and his current absense smells of avoidance. He hopes the pressure will let up while the players are distracted by other matters.
That role is testable and potentially valuable to the town and mafia. Test results reveal a power role. It's most valuable in the late game. It is without alignment. It explains Cyan's play regardless of alignment. It is complete WIFOM.
I'll play the metagame.
@TMT: Considering the implied consequences, I'd support some restraint in cogitoing.
That role is testable and potentially valuable to the town and mafia. Test results reveal a power role. It's most valuable in the late game. It is without alignment. It explains Cyan's play regardless of alignment. It is complete WIFOM.
I'll play the metagame.
.
Errrr...what does this even mean?
Attempt at deciphering (Please clear up asap though):
"I (AH) think that the role could be either town or scum, so its a null-tell. It's also a role that a scum GF might claim since it's testable. I think I'll go with what we had on Cyan before since the claim doesn't do anything and will keep my vote on."
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
If you had him pegged as scum, why can't they have as well?
At some point before, I think I did say they certainly could have as well.
The first thing I do after being wrong isn't usually to look back at the people who agreed with me.
Clearly I couldn't have looked over his posts to attempt to see where I went wrong because he only made a measily three. Likewise, I felt it would be good to look at the players on his wagon because the 3 others on his wagon have been suspected by multiple people on multiple occasions. Thus, I felt it would be a good idea to isolate a small incident and look at all three of them with a tremendous amount of scrutiny in attempt to get some reads one way or the other on them.
That role is testable and potentially valuable to the town and mafia. Test results reveal a power role. It's most valuable in the late game. It is without alignment. It explains Cyan's play regardless of alignment. It is complete WIFOM.
I'll play the metagame.
@TMT: Considering the implied consequences, I'd support some restraint in cogitoing.
I like the part where you say that the role explains my play regardless of alignment, but apparently don't realize that this completely and utterly defeats the 'metagame'(all one game of it ) argument.
While I agree that the ability I claimed could go either way, the role that I claimed cannot. It's a game about superheroes, and my role is Elastigirl. You can't get much more pro-town than that.
I also love the fact that no one even noticed the way DYH just went immediately back to my wagon after Numegil got modkilled.
DYH knows I'm not scum. If he thought I was scum, there's no way that he was going to get on the Numegil wagon immediately after I did, unless he thought I was trying to bus a scumbuddy, and he would have made that abundtantly clear.
Sorry Cyan, Role name won't exactly clear anyone until we know who the scum are, and if they have falseclaims.
For all we know the scum are all children. Or they're all women (and some women are falseclaiming). Who knows. Saying your rolename should clear you, is stupid.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Attempt at deciphering (Please clear up asap though):
"I (AH) think that the role could be either town or scum, so its a null-tell. It's also a role that a scum GF might claim since it's testable. I think I'll go with what we had on Cyan before since the claim doesn't do anything and will keep my vote on."
That's pretty much the gist of it, though I don't remember mentioning anything to do with a GF.
Quote from Cyan »
I like the part where you say that the role explains my play regardless of alignment, but apparently don't realize that this completely and utterly defeats the 'metagame'(all one game of it ) argument.
While I agree that the ability I claimed could go either way, the role that I claimed cannot. It's a game about superheroes, and my role is Elastigirl. You can't get much more pro-town than that.
I should definitely rephrase. Comparing an untargetable role to your behavior does not speak to your alignment. It doesn't erase the record of your deeds.
And relying on flavor as a defense... not helping.
That's pretty much the gist of it, though I don't remember mentioning anything to do with a GF.
Untargetable scum tend to be GFs. Thus i thought you were saying a GF (aka untargetable scum) would claim untargetable.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I like the part where you say that the role explains my play regardless of alignment, but apparently don't realize that this completely and utterly defeats the 'metagame'(all one game of it ) argument.
While I agree that the ability I claimed could go either way, the role that I claimed cannot. It's a game about superheroes, and my role is Elastigirl. You can't get much more pro-town than that.
I also love the fact that no one even noticed the way DYH just went immediately back to my wagon after Numegil got modkilled.
DYH knows I'm not scum. If he thought I was scum, there's no way that he was going to get on the Numegil wagon immediately after I did, unless he thought I was trying to bus a scumbuddy, and he would have made that abundtantly clear.
This is classic scum Cyan, right here.
Not anything in the above makes any sense. Even if we had any idea what the flavor for the scum was, which we don't, he still could have just picked any ol' superhero, and would have an incredibly small chance of getting counterclaimed. His rolename does absolutely nothing to clear him.
The bit about DYH is bull too. As though DYH would absolutely have to behave in the way that Cyan thinks he would.
And Cyan's inability to accept the flaws in his "defense" is classic scum Cyan. Go check out Hollywood 2, where he claimed a role that didn't confirm him in the least, and yet he insisted relentlessly that it was obviously not a scum role. (Come to think of it, he wasn't very aggressive that game either...)
So, now you're trying to hold against me a game where I replaced in as a scum? I was as aggressive as could be for the whole day before my scumbuddy got lynched, I got investigated, and then also got lynched.
Do you really have to try that hard to make this ♥♥♥♥♥♥ case seem better against me than it is?
And my 'inability to accept the flaws in my defense' is just how I am, it has nothing to do with me being scum. Go read Matrix Mafia(town) or Cartoon Mafia(town) for some examples of situations where I claimed roles that I felt it was overwhelmingly obvious were town, only to have people disagree with me relentlessly.
And your example about 'picking an old superhero' MIGHT be relevant, if not for the softclaim that we were all forced into. Are you really saying that I saw you claim 'E/FEMALE/OTHER' and still figured that my best false claim option was to claim Elastigirl? Seriously, get a clue. I claimed my real role, a role that is overwhelmingly likely to be town.
As for DYH, it has little to do with him personally and alot to do with common sense. Are you honestly going to sit there and tell me that, if you're town, you're going to happily hop onto a wagon that someone you were just trying to get lynched just joined? There is no way that it happens this way. At the very least, some kind of comment would have been made, particularly by a player of DYH's caliber.
Your behavior is not at all befitting your claim. With the untargetability you claim to have, you would've been all over people like a rabid dog on meat. No, this is utter trash.
As for Numegil - I had already blasted his lack of content prior to your vote of him. I have already explained this, please read the thread. I simply wanted some contributions from him and was ready to move on to RR (at the time), but I've explained that change as well.
Your behavior is not at all befitting your claim. With the untargetability you claim to have, you would've been all over people like a rabid dog on meat. No, this is utter trash.
As for Numegil - I had already blasted his lack of content prior to your vote of him. I have already explained this, please read the thread. I simply wanted some contributions from him and was ready to move on to RR (at the time), but I've explained that change as well.
It's time for you to swing, Cyan. You're scum.
So now it's that I'm lying about being untargetable? Yeah okay. Untargetability is the easiest thing in the world to test.
And you are woefully incorrect when you say that I'd have been more aggressive because I'm untargetable. I *hate* being untargetable.
I have to agree with Ced, and in coinciding with my earlier suspicions or Jql, I wouldn't be suprised in the slightest if Jql was a scumbuddy of Cyan. Ultimately, I feel confident with a vote on Cyan because of many of the previously stated reasons along with the fact we will never be able to know whether he is scum or town (via investigation), and by the looks of it, I do not feel comfortable saying, "O let's leave Cyan alive because if he is town, he will be a good analyst, etc, etc, etc," because he hasn't "done his thing" this game. There's been no real latching on coming from him, and at the same time, the pieces don't add up because if he knows he can't be targetted (hey OMG, no mafia/SK nightkill) there's simply no explanation for his behavior. If he was town, I imagine an untargettable Cyan would have ripped people to shreds knowing his only method of dying would be though a lynch, and clearly he wouldn't get lynched after handing the town every piece scum on a silver platter.
I see Cyan has Nat'd me during the creation of this post.
@ Cyan - why do you hate being untargettable when you can run rampant without the fear of dying?
Because, I'm a magnet for night actions, and not being able to target someone only makes people suspicious.
Seriously, this entire thing is nonsense. The original 'case' on me involved all of *one* example where I didn't post alot early in the game, and somehow this became a 'metagame analysis'. And I have already explained this circumstance. I am tired of the playstyle I have maintained, it is too exhausting. CropCircles, of all people, should know that I'm being truthful when I make that statement.
DYH and CC, the leading candidates on my wagon, both made terrible arguments to get me here, all of which I refuted. Even *after* I claimed, they continued to make bad arguments, and I have continued to refute them. And anyone saying that flavor 'can't be a factor' when nothing is known is only saying so because their role is flavorfully bad.
The "mafia" in there was from BR, but as was shown after BR ended, Cyan actually didn't realize he was mafia in that one, impressive as that was. Armed with that knowledge, I'd likely have joined in to force Cyan to claim.
You mean based on knowledge of BR alone as the only instance you have seen of Cyan as mafia, you would have supported a claim from Cyan? You quoted that as if that's the determining point but what about the other games that have been quoted to you by the others like DYH and Ande? If that point alone would have convinced you to join in Cyan's wagon, why wouldn't the other games quoted as example have convinced you beforehand?
Third, Dagger caught my eye on reread, due to this post. This was done at the peak of the Cyan wagon. The logic here is somewhat questionable. Dagger claims to be in support of a push against Cyan, and mentions forcing a claim, but wants to talk about getting the mass-claim out of the way first. Why is that? I'd think that at the least, he'd want Cyan to be the first to do the partial claim - why would you want to give the person you're most suspicious of more information before forcing a claim out of them? His later posts continue to be critical of Cyan, but he never places a vote on Cyan or makes an attempt to stir anything up against him. This could be misdirection, but that would require Cyan to be Dagger's scumbuddy.
I mentioned that before Cyan reached the claim threshold, we might want to pursue the soft claims first. That was done from a strategic point of view. That point alone was not a supporting factor of Cyan's wagon, as I would have suggested it anyway in view of any other player's wagon. As thus, I did not really care whether Cyan did the partial claim first or not as the primary purpose of the soft claim was to limit the scums' claiming range. If you suggest that somehow it would be beneficial for Cyan to soft claim first, then you are of the opinion that Cyan as a scum could utilize the soft claims for his own nefarious purpose. I do not share that opinion. I believe that the scums could derive no benefit from the soft claims at all. As thus, IMO, it doesn't really matter the order of the soft claims. If it matters, then would we say the last person to soft claim has a higher probability of being scum? That's WIFOM logic at best and is nothing concrete.
I am critical when I want to divine another player's motivations. You'll note I was not only critical of Cyan, but of those players I think made a discrepancy in their thoughts or actions. As thus, I was not looking at Cyan specifically as you believed. He was not the person I was most suspicious of or the person I wanted to pursue most. He was merely a player I think could be a good lead to pressure on. You conveniently forgot to mention that I listed Some One in the same sentence I talked about Cyan. I will freely offer this, at the point when I made that post of mine, my scum list had only two people: Cyan and SO.
Either way, I'm disturbed by the fact that Cyan's ceased to be a topic of discussion. I'd really like to get positions from Dagger, Roja, and ced395 on him.
Right now, Cyan would be one of the three people I am leaning scum on.
Umm... was this meant to be directed at me? Infinis was the one who had the converstaion with Cubus that ended with Cubus giving his full rolename. I was basically thinking out loud with the section you quoted, trying to decide what a rolename of Rorschach signified, and not coming up with very much.
It was actually. I have a problem with the thinking out loud part. Your statement didn't really answer my question:
I don't understand your intention in clarifying Cubus' rolename? What exactly did you expect to hear? A green light from the town to go after Cubus? It's like you are deliberately speculating openly about his rolename in order to gauge how the town would react to it? But if you are town yourself, you could have just directly stated your opinion on it, instead of asking it aloud for the town to answer?
You claimed you were thinking out loud. But it really seemed as if you were asking a question of the town, quoted again down here:
Next question: is a claim of Rorschach really a positive in this game? Obviously something that we won't be able to answer that well until we see a dead body or two, but I could honestly see Rorschach as a SK, or part of a mafia made up of "heroes" who disagree with the methods of the rest of us.
"Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never compromise."
However what bothers me is why would he post exactly like he did in Prehistoric.. It would seem too simple (simple like "you got me" ><) . And that alone is what is making me second guess myself. I'll also need to see more on DYH as well, as this is only reflects on Cyan's actions.
You made a conclusion on Cyan's playstyle as a scum but then added in a disclaimer? Doesn't that made your conclusion WIFOM?
@ Cyan - why should CC know you are being truthful when you make that statement about the fact you are sick of your "typical" playstyle? Also, above all else, we know you are a magnet for night actions, but why would people have any reason to be suspicious if you upheld your "typical" playstyle?
That's pretty compelling case Roja. This won't be the first time I vote Cyan for not being aggressive enough.
Unvote,
Vote: Cyan
A case? I didn't see Roja ending his post with a vote on Cyan nor did he make any definite conclusion about it. What makes you think he was making a case?
My opinion changed. It's as simple as that. Just because I fear a day 1 mislynch (as everyone should), it doesn't mean we should be paralyzed by that fear and not use the tools of the game to try to make everyone participate at a reasonable level.
And honestly, if Numegil is town and he was to be lynched, I'd rather lose an inactive town player like him than an active one like Cyan (if he's town) or yourself (if you're town).
I would have thought that if your opinion was really changed, you wouldn't have added in the bit about "I fear a day 1 mislynch (as everyone should)" to support your previous position. Also, I find it disturbing you would agree to a dead townie, inactive or no. In addition, I find it indicative that you would indirectly cite Cyan as an active town and then list me as the other one (to warn me off?).
You come back making a post discussing Cyan's wagon that has no useful analysis without knowing Cyan's alignment (you specifically depend several factors on Cyan's alignment). You have no arguments on other players in the abstract, nor do you seem to have an actual opinion on Cyan. Essentially, you made several points that won't matter until, at the soonest, tomorrow. And that's if Cyan turns up dead, which you don't seem to be pushing for.
Actually, I find myself in agreement with this point on RR.
- Cyan - Continues to post in an unusually non-aggressive fashion, ironically only displaying aggression when responding to accusations of non-aggression.
I find myself agreeing with this point as well.
More coming up.
Apologies about the short burst of posts. I'm currently in my hometown and the net connection is sporadic at best. I'll scream if I lose another post I painstakingly typed.
Because, I'm a magnet for night actions, and not being able to target someone only makes people suspicious.
Curious, then, that you act in a manner that is more likely to draw important town night actions (like a cop) and not important scum ones (like a nightkill). I'm also not sure why, especially if you think your role is so absolutely town, you would be afraid of being found out to be untargetable during the night, but you have no qualms claiming it whatsoever.
Actually, that argument goes both ways. If you think that a townie is going to be suspicious of me for not posting as much and try to investigate me, then a scum is going to react exactly like the same way. The few times that I have been NKed early(or people attempted to NK me), some scum told me 'you were being quiet so we thought you were sitting on a power role'. See RafK's comments to me at the end of ASoIaF, for example.
In reality, however, I doubt that me not posting as much is going to make a Cop try to investigate me. This is a terrible argument.
And what do you mean, 'no qualms claiming it'? I was at 3 to lynch out of 10, obviously it was time for me to claim. I figured that I'd claim and you guys would finally get over yourselves and move on. It's unreal that we're still having this conversation. The difference between being 'found out' now and being 'found out' at night when someone tries to target me is that this is on my terms.
Also, above all else, we know you are a magnet for night actions, but why would people have any reason to be suspicious if you upheld your "typical" playstyle?
The point it is making is that if you have been untargettable in the past (which I am going to guess you were), why would you *hate* that? It would enable you to behave in a clearly pro-town manner without the fear of being killed. A cop wouldn't want to investigate you because he'd be able to see in plain sight you were town, and most likely, instead, investigate some of the people you displayed a moderate suspicion of or uncertainty overall about.
Actually, that argument goes both ways. If you think that a townie is going to be suspicious of me for not posting as much and try to investigate me, then a scum is going to react exactly like the same way. The few times that I have been NKed early(or people attempted to NK me), some scum told me 'you were being quiet so we thought you were sitting on a power role'. See RafK's comments to me at the end of ASoIaF, for example.
Weren't you the serial killer that game?
And what do you mean, 'no qualms claiming it'? I was at 3 to lynch out of 10, obviously it was time for me to claim. I figured that I'd claim and you guys would finally get over yourselves and move on. It's unreal that we're still having this conversation. The difference between being 'found out' now and being 'found out' at night when someone tries to target me is that this is on my terms.
My point is, what's the difference? Why is it somehow scummier to be found to be untargetable at night as opposed to now? Why should you be afraid of getting caught at night since the result would be the same as it is now - you claiming.
Once again i'll say my PM was wrong, when I filled out the info about myself it was correct with my PM however that was wrong. What would you have me do in this case? Once I noticed it was wrong, I PMed the host, warned others that there could be something wrong with their pms and when I got confirmation I posted it here. What else was I to do?
Tell you what. When you have name claimed, you explain this misunderstanding to us. If your story matched, we should understand your rationale then.
RobRoy: In your post about the Cyan wagon, you mention that you would have joined the Cyan wagon, had you had certain information from Battle Royale mafia at the time. You also say that your current opinion of Cyan isn't worth a vote. Has anything changed between the time when the Cyan wagon was in full swing, and now to make your opinion of Cyan change, or is this all related to the size of the wagon?
EBWODP: Some One, how many times did you have to edit this post before you posted it? In other words, how many times did you write something, delete it and rephrase yourself before coming up with the above paragraph. An estimate would be fine, but try to be exact.
One concern that I did spot is that he lists 2 potential targets in 294 (Cyan and SO), but then follows up neither.
I listed them because they were in my scumlist. I didn't really follow up on them because I was leaning scum on Cyan due to metagame and leaning scum on Some One due to his actions during the soft claims (I can't really remember, so I'll need a reread there).
(--!, this is a really cruddy post. Cyan has been really aggressive on Dagger, was on Numegil…what do you mean non-aggression? Also, while he commits to a vote, he still brings up two other targets and they’re cruddy easy ones. Very little effort went into this post in terms of actual reading in the thread (Even misidentifies infinis as Roja))
Cyan being aggressive means he comes out guns ablazing on someone and repeatedly state that said someone is scum based on a tell or another, and refusing to yield like a rabid bloodthirsty dog, even if half the town are yelling at him to stop.
I've also found several things to dislike about Dagger: the fact that he posted yesterday morning in BR without posting here, despite the fact that I'd asked him for information; the fact that he never followed up on Cyan or Some One; the way he's ducking out on giving his positions here. The only saving grace here is that he was posting opinions barely ten minutes before I made my analysis post, so it is conceivable that he'd posted and figured he was covered for a couple days. The timing in that case is unfortunate. I really wish we could get him in the thread right now, but for now I'll just FOS: Dagger and cast meaningful glances his way.
Participating in a discussion is different than participating in a game. One requires hindsight and the other requires foresight. Also, you can check out my previous posts for my positions on various players.
I don't see why this is really scummy at all. Clarifying someone's post so people understand it is the mark of scum? The only thing I could possibly see as scummy about this is what you said: posts like this can be used to "look active." However, look at the rest of that post. This was me clarifying his stance because people didn't get it amidst a larger post where I'm discussing other topics. And I don't quite believe your statement that you've never seen someone clarify another post before.
On the most basest level, I clarified it because people didn't understand it and I did. On a slightly higher level, I clarified it because I agreed with the point AH was making, and wanted to make it clear so it would be addressed.
I didn't say it was scummy, merely weird. And I can see the rationale you give for this point.
If I was worried about being in the spotlight, I wouldn't have brought it up in the first place. How do you think me attacking DYH over that could have possibly resulted in me dropping out of the spotlight? Me making a big deal of DYH barning me just pushes me into the spotlight.
You're essentially suspicious of me for the same reasons I was suspicious of DYH, which is ironic. I attacked DYH because I felt he was unnecessarily throwing my name in the hat with him, possibly for the two reasons I suggested earlier. Furthermore, I recall DYH barning me in HP mafia on a couple of occasions, and it struck me as a similar situation. Him bringing up my name didn't seem natural.
Again, good reasoning. The first paragraph hinted at a WIFOM argument though.
Neutrality as a stance in an argument doesn't really imply neutrality in alignment. I gave an opinion on the arguments. If I wanted to pick a side, I simply would have. Again, what do you think I was trying to gain by being neutral here? I figured someone would probably attack me for not picking a side, it's not like I was attempting to remain unnoticed by this move. What would be my motivation for remaining neutral?
The first sentence is true. It could really lean either way. By remaining neutral, you won't be running the risk of antagonizing one side or the other, and possibly has a higher survival rate. That's what I could think of on the spot though.
but in his SCUM games i remember him being aggressive as hell. DYH brought up ONE scum game (Prehistoric). That's a weak meta argument at best.
Examples of said scum game? I remembered Roja quoting the last few games Cyan played. If the game you have in mind was not in that list, where exactly did you get your examples from?
Your behavior is not at all befitting your claim. With the untargetability you claim to have, you would've been all over people like a rabid dog on meat. No, this is utter trash.
I will Major FoS: Cyan though. I will ruminate on his claim and his recent posts and actions more though, and decide on voting for him or not by the end of today though.
In the meantime, Ced has a case of sorts on you. Maybe you would like to look over it at #497 and tell us what you think of it? As well as mine at #555.
Upon further reflection, I still don't think I should vote for Cyan, no matter how asynchronous his actions and claims seem to be. I've run across enough weird set ups in my short time playing Mafia to know that a seeming strange role isn't always a false claim, and a player's behaviour can vary from game to game depending on what else is going on in their lives. I'm still a bit suspicious of Cyan's claim, but I won't be voting for him given the current evidence available.
Yes, I know I tend to fluctuate wildly between one opinion and its opposite, but that's how my mind works I'm doing the best I can.
You believed Cyan's actions were asynchronous with his claims, and then you excused them due to a weird setup. However, you cited "glaring contradiction between their arguments and their behavior" as a solid evidence for a day 1 lynch, which would be valid in this case.
Well the best we could hope for on day 1 would be some sort of contested claim, but barring that, just some sort of glaring contradiction in someone's arguments or between their arguments and their behaviour.
You shifted your stance yet again. Quite frankly, I believe you are scum.
A few notes:
1. I don't agree with loran's case on TMT. Frankly, I don't agree with the majority of his list. Period.
2. I support a Cyan's lynch. And Jql as well actually. Consider my votes on them.
Examples of said scum game? I remembered Roja quoting the last few games Cyan played. If the game you have in mind was not in that list, where exactly did you get your examples from?.
FF7 most recently, TV mafia 2, Star Trek Mafia (Axelrod edition).
Those are off the top of my head.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Cyan's claim doesn't really do anything to sway me either way. Untargetability is something that appears on both scum and town, and Elastigirl really means nothing to me. There's no indication of scum/town flavor breakdown or even if there IS any distinguishable breakdown, so saying Elastigirl is obvtown is simply untrue.
I'm fine with proceeding with a lynch. I second the call for our intrepid hero to provide us with his considerations, though.
FF7 most recently, TV mafia 2, Star Trek Mafia (Axelrod edition).
Those are off the top of my head.
The FFVII reference is terrible, he was an unkillable SK for the first three days. You know TV mafia is a bogus example because the scum were aware everyone was a cop, and Star Trek was Cyan's very first game here as scum. Care to try and find anything relevant and recent to use?
Hint: You can't.
For someone arguing that I was using a small sample size for comparison in meta, you don't have a leg to stand on here.
Cyan tryied to rely on flavor to save him, which tells me he's desperate and reaching for some indication of what his buddies can expect to find in the townie PMs.
He's since abandoned that with loran's prodding and has now gone to attacking CC and me as making poor accusations which he's refuted. Considering both of those things are false (the accusations are accurate, and he's not refuted anything), this is pretty cut and dry.
Oh, and Cyan, I don't doubt you're untargetable, I just think you're untargetable and scum. If you were town and untargetable, you wouldn't have been concerned with people being suspicious of you; you'd have been playing your normal game - this totally speaks to mindset, and you're playing with a scum one beyond the shadow of a doubt.
The FFVII reference is terrible, he was an unkillable SK for the first three days. You know TV mafia is a bogus example because the scum were aware everyone was a cop, and Star Trek was Cyan's very first game here as scum. Care to try and find anything relevant and recent to use?
If he IS untargetable scum, then FF7 is a valid example, since he's kind of unkillable. I don't recall him being unlynchable scum in ff7.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
TMT hears a voice behind him. He cautiously turns around to stand face to face with the mysterious Dagger. But there is no time for introductions. The man is ready to get down to business.
The villain has made his claim, and now we must decide his fate. He says his name alone should clear him. "This is a game about superheroes, after all! Of course Elastigirl is town!" But as he himself pointed out, it's a game of superheroes, not supervillains! The scum themselves may very well be heroes, or perhaps more accurately former heroes. And what of the previous suggestion that the scum have disguises? The name alone proves nothing. But what of the role? Untargetability could go either way as a role, but in conjunction with his behavior I must conclude that it is scummy. As an untargetable townie, I would expect Cyan to be more aggressive, not less. He mentions that he tends to draw night-actions, and that failed night-actions make people suspicious. But Cyan has always struck me as much too bold to worry about such things. It strikes me as more likely that his fear of suspicion stems from his alignment rather than a genuine concern for the town. Ultimately, I conclude that my vote shall stand.
Finished with addressing Dagger's question, our hero turns to JqlGirl. Reaching into his belt, he pulls out a FoSium hand-grenade.
I have but one vote, but the actions of the devious JqlGirl cannot go unanswered. Her waffling on Cyan, "explained" by her claim that it is just her nature to flip between opposing opinions, is a travesty. She fears to look like she's barning, but also fears how it will look if she avoids a wagon of a scummy player. So in her desperation she tries to ride the fence, issuing a "major FoS" but then saying that the wagon just isn't solid enough for her vote.
In a blur of motion, TMT's hand swings forward. The FoSium grenade flies with unnatural precision toward its target.
If he IS untargetable scum, then FF7 is a valid example, since he's kind of unkillable. I don't recall him being unlynchable scum in ff7.
My research indicates that he was indeed unlynchable, but only for the first three days of the game. Furthermore, in FF7 he would specifically show up as town when investigated, rather than the investigation failing. The difference between his role here and his role in FF7 fits perfectly with the differing behavior.
My research indicates that he was indeed unlynchable, but only for the first three days of the game. Furthermore, in FF7 he would specifically show up as town when investigated, rather than the investigation failing. The difference between his role here and his role in FF7 fits perfectly with the differing behavior.
The first bit is different. The 2nd bit is not....as scum he still wouldn't fear investigations or kills, so less need to not go aggressive.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
If your opinion is that you don't have an opinion (or, even worse, "Here are reasons they are/could be scummy, but I don't think they are scum"), then yes.
This is the same argument that you had with me. I still maintain that if someone clearly states a neutral position, with reasons, then this isn't itself scummy.
I like the part where you say that the role explains my play regardless of alignment, but apparently don't realize that this completely and utterly defeats the 'metagame'(all one game of it ) argument.
While I agree that the ability I claimed could go either way, the role that I claimed cannot. It's a game about superheroes, and my role is Elastigirl. You can't get much more pro-town than that.
I really dislike this. First, we have no clue who the scum are, so there's no point of reference to compare to. Secondly, we have no confirmation that Cyan is actually Elastigirl, and without that, the assurance that Elastigirl is townie is worthless. However:
And your example about 'picking an old superhero' MIGHT be relevant, if not for the softclaim that we were all forced into. Are you really saying that I saw you claim 'E/FEMALE/OTHER' and still figured that my best false claim option was to claim Elastigirl? Seriously, get a clue. I claimed my real role, a role that is overwhelmingly likely to be town.
This is a valid point. I don't like the fact that Cyan claimed at the end of the soft-claim list, trailed only by Abandon Hope. However, he did make a claim that matched CropCircles', and he's right that this would be a horrible thing for scum to do if lying. This produces three possible scenarios:
1) Cyan is townie, and Elastigirl.
2) Cyan is scum and was provided Elastigirl as a false-claim.
3) Cyan is co-scum with CropCircles, and they have two claims set up for that letter combination. CC also claimed near the end, so this could have been done deliberately.
I'm at home with the folks this weekend, and while I've grabbed some time to do this post I don't have enough time to do a reread and see if I believe 3) or not. I'll have to come back to that. In the meantime, while I am still suspicious of Cyan, I don't think I want him to die in the next couple RL days, so for now I will:
My take on recent events:
- It was unfortunate that Numegil got modkilled rather than being replaced. Oh well.
- Cyan's claim does seem fishy to me, considering his usually more active/aggressive playstyle. If I couldn't be targeted (and thus nightkilled) and was town, I'd be in the face of everyone I thought was scum, trying to goad them into poor play. Hmm. Seeing as Cyan's already at L-(some small number) though, I don't think I'll vote for him just yet. I don't want to be too hasty and have us end up down two townies after day 1 before even getting to nighttime.
I will Major FoS: Cyan though. I will ruminate on his claim and his recent posts and actions more though, and decide on voting for him or not by the end of today though.
I really dislike this post for the waffling and ass-covering that it provides, but that isn't really enough for me to base anything on. I'll have to add JqlGirl to my list of people to do a reread on.
As I said, I don't have enough right now to do full rereads, and also don't have enough time to deal with Dagger's walls of text - which, thank you for, anyway. I'll answer a few of the things directly addressed at me here, and come back for other points later.
You mean based on knowledge of BR alone as the only instance you have seen of Cyan as mafia, you would have supported a claim from Cyan? You quoted that as if that's the determining point but what about the other games that have been quoted to you by the others like DYH and Ande? If that point alone would have convinced you to join in Cyan's wagon, why wouldn't the other games quoted as example have convinced you beforehand?
My initial post that I referenced in the one you linked gives you the answer. When the Cyan wagon was first building, I was thinking "He posts a lot as a townie (Fiasco, Doomsday) as SK (FFVII) and as mafia (BR), so I don't know what it means that he isn't posting a lot." Once you remove BR from that mix, I'm a lot more willing to believe that the lack of posting could be indicative of his alignment.
I mentioned that before Cyan reached the claim threshold, we might want to pursue the soft claims first. That was done from a strategic point of view. That point alone was not a supporting factor of Cyan's wagon, as I would have suggested it anyway in view of any other player's wagon. As thus, I did not really care whether Cyan did the partial claim first or not as the primary purpose of the soft claim was to limit the scums' claiming range. If you suggest that somehow it would be beneficial for Cyan to soft claim first, then you are of the opinion that Cyan as a scum could utilize the soft claims for his own nefarious purpose. I do not share that opinion. I believe that the scums could derive no benefit from the soft claims at all. As thus, IMO, it doesn't really matter the order of the soft claims. If it matters, then would we say the last person to soft claim has a higher probability of being scum? That's WIFOM logic at best and is nothing concrete.
This is a point of disagreement, then. Suppose you are scum. Would you rather have to lock in your soft-claim before or after knowing the soft-claims of the members of the town? The obvious answer is after - I think it's unlikely that every member of the scum would have a false-claim, so (if their names are obviously scummy) some of them are going to have to just make stuff up. You'd rather know that you can claim safely than have to sit there wondering if the claim you've made up is going to conflict with someone else. Now, I'll grant that there are other names out there; the downside to the scum claiming early is fairly low. But it is a downside, and arguing otherwise is being deliberately blind.
If he IS untargetable scum, then FF7 is a valid example, since he's kind of unkillable. I don't recall him being unlynchable scum in ff7.
Several differences:
1) He was SK - which allowed him to hunt scum. He is probable mafia in this game.
2) He was unkillable - which allowed him to hunt scum.
3) He was uninvestigatable - which allowed him to act as aggressive as he wanted.
4) He was unlynchable - you get the point.
This is the same argument that you had with me. I still maintain that if someone clearly states a neutral position, with reasons, then this isn't itself scummy.
You maintained no position, not a neutral one. You gave a large list of people and said "If Cyan is town, they are [alignment], but if Cyan is scum, they are [other]."
And goat gave a neutral position with reasons why they were scummy.
So, now you're trying to hold against me a game where I replaced in as a scum? I was as aggressive as could be for the whole day before my scumbuddy got lynched, I got investigated, and then also got lynched.
Do you really have to try that hard to make this ♥♥♥♥♥♥ case seem better against me than it is?
That's the point. You failed to be agressive as scum.
And I'm not trying to make the case seemed better, I made an off hand comment when I remembered that game. The case is solid as is.
Quote from Cyan »
And my 'inability to accept the flaws in my defense' is just how I am, it has nothing to do with me being scum. Go read Matrix Mafia(town) or Cartoon Mafia(town) for some examples of situations where I claimed roles that I felt it was overwhelmingly obvious were town, only to have people disagree with me relentlessly.
You're role in Matrix was overwhelmingly obviously town, the fact that you were a traitor was one of the biggest mistakes in MTGS history, imo. And Cartoon was a long time ago, you've grown a lot as a player since then. I would fully expect you to realize the flaws in demanding that you claiming Elastigirl would do anything to clear you in a game where we have no idea if the scum have false claims, or that they would even need to false claim.
Quote from Cyan »
And your example about 'picking an old superhero' MIGHT be relevant, if not for the softclaim that we were all forced into. Are you really saying that I saw you claim 'E/FEMALE/OTHER' and still figured that my best false claim option was to claim Elastigirl? Seriously, get a clue. I claimed my real role, a role that is overwhelmingly likely to be town.
WIFOM, you could have easily set that up with the intention of bringing this point up once you claimed. You were brought close to a claim earlier, you surely would have reaslized that you were likely to have to claim sometime soon.
Quote from Cyan »
As for DYH, it has little to do with him personally and alot to do with common sense. Are you honestly going to sit there and tell me that, if you're town, you're going to happily hop onto a wagon that someone you were just trying to get lynched just joined? There is no way that it happens this way. At the very least, some kind of comment would have been made, particularly by a player of DYH's caliber.
It's called bussing. Scum do it. A player of DYH's calibur would realize that as well. (Hi Ged!)
Actually, that argument goes both ways. If you think that a townie is going to be suspicious of me for not posting as much and try to investigate me, then a scum is going to react exactly like the same way. The few times that I have been NKed early(or people attempted to NK me), some scum told me 'you were being quiet so we thought you were sitting on a power role'. See RafK's comments to me at the end of ASoIaF, for example.
The fact that you are saying that arguement could go both ways, and not arguing that you were laying low to draw a nightkill, makes this entire point void. The arguement could go both ways, but you haven't actually argued that it was a certain way. You say you just didn't have anything to talk about, which is neither side of that arguement, and it is the idea that you just couldn't find anything to talk about which is the unbelievable part.
Quote from Cyan »
In reality, however, I doubt that me not posting as much is going to make a Cop try to investigate me. This is a terrible argument.
Missing the point. You don't have to fear a Nightkill, ergo you should have no reason to not go balls out.
This really a minor point, anyway. It's just one more straw.
@RobRoy: Just cut your losses and bus him. I promise, it'll get you more brownie points than advising caution.
That's the point. You failed to be agressive as scum.
I aggressively pursued Dragondart or whomever it was that got lynched the day after WoD did.
You're role in Matrix was overwhelmingly obviously town, the fact that you were a traitor was one of the biggest mistakes in MTGS history, imo. And Cartoon was a long time ago, you've grown a lot as a player since then. I would fully expect you to realize the flaws in demanding that you claiming Elastigirl would do anything to clear you in a game where we have no idea if the scum have false claims, or that they would even need to false claim.
My role was overwhelmingly town in Matrix? Really? Is that why I nearly got lynched and only avoided it because Axel piped in and confirmed as much of my story as he could. It is overwhelmingly obvious to me that Elastigirl is a town role, and it's ridiculous that people want to play Devil's Advocate about it. There is no 'knowing better' on Day 1. This whole thing is ridiculous, you don't just go into a themed game, assuming that flavor is not going to be relevant.
WIFOM, you could have easily set that up with the intention of bringing this point up once you claimed. You were brought close to a claim earlier, you surely would have reaslized that you were likely to have to claim sometime soon.
If anything, knowing that I was going to have to claim soon would make me LESS likely to claim E/Female/Other immediately after someone else did, not moreso!
It's called bussing. Scum do it. A player of DYH's calibur would realize that as well. (Hi Ged!)
...
What does bussing have to do with anything here, I don't even understand the implication.
The fact that you are saying that arguement could go both ways, and not arguing that you were laying low to draw a nightkill, makes this entire point void. The arguement could go both ways, but you haven't actually argued that it was a certain way. You say you just didn't have anything to talk about, which is neither side of that arguement, and it is the idea that you just couldn't find anything to talk about which is the unbelievable part.
I haven't said that I was laying low to draw a NK because I wasn't. I don't even like that you're referring to it as 'laying low', the scummy implications in that are clear, and I don't think that was the case. I was not intentionally avoiding the thread, there was nothing to say. Every freaking game, at the start, I tell myself that I'm going to play more lowkey and observational. It's just not fun to play the way I do anymore.
Missing the point. You don't have to fear a Nightkill, ergo you should have no reason to not go balls out.
I don't have to fear a NK *anyway*, I almost never get NKed early. You are arguing an approach to being untargetable that I simply don't agree with. That doesn't make it a tell on my part, it makes it a difference in playstyle.
Participating in a discussion is different than participating in a game. One requires hindsight and the other requires foresight. Also, you can check out my previous posts for my positions on various players.
Did you read what you quoted before responding to it? I acknowledged in there that you'd given positions. I was bemoaning the fact that you weren't giving us your opinions on Cyan, either before or after I raised him as an issue again. You know - the guy you said initially was scum?
You maintained no position, not a neutral one. You gave a large list of people and said "If Cyan is town, they are [alignment], but if Cyan is scum, they are [other]."
Yes. Yes, I did. Was I wrong? Are you arguing with my analysis at all? I tossed some analysis into the pool, knowing that it wasn't of immediate use. Are you trying to say that I shouldn't have made that post? Do you believe that me making that post was not a townie action? If not, why are you complaining so much? The only thing I can think of is that you're trying to discredit the analysis by attacking me. Why else are you making a fuss about this?
Seriously, this entire thing is nonsense. The original 'case' on me involved all of *one* example where I didn't post alot early in the game, and somehow this became a 'metagame analysis'. And I have already explained this circumstance. I am tired of the playstyle I have maintained, it is too exhausting. CropCircles, of all people, should know that I'm being truthful when I make that statement.
CropCircles didn't respond to this, and you didn't raise the point again in your response to him. Why should CC think you're changing your style?
My role was overwhelmingly town in Matrix? Really? Is that why I nearly got lynched and only avoided it because Axel piped in and confirmed as much of my story as he could. It is overwhelmingly obvious to me that Elastigirl is a town role, and it's ridiculous that people want to play Devil's Advocate about it. There is no 'knowing better' on Day 1. This whole thing is ridiculous, you don't just go into a themed game, assuming that flavor is not going to be relevant.
The flavour is relevant - if we can trust it. We have nothing but your word that you are actually Elastigirl. As I posted earlier, there are a couple of scenarios in which you would claim this despite CropCircles making a matching soft-claim.
CropCircles didn't respond to this, and you didn't raise the point again in your response to him. Why should CC think you're changing your style?
He didn't respond and I didn't reply because I made that comment out of frustration, and it refers to something ongoing, so I shouldn't have said anything. Nevermind about it.
This is a valid point. I don't like the fact that Cyan claimed at the end of the soft-claim list, trailed only by Abandon Hope. However, he did make a claim that matched CropCircles', and he's right that this would be a horrible thing for scum to do if lying. This produces three possible scenarios:
1) Cyan is townie, and Elastigirl.
2) Cyan is scum and was provided Elastigirl as a false-claim.
3) Cyan is co-scum with CropCircles, and they have two claims set up for that letter combination. CC also claimed near the end, so this could have been done deliberately.
2)Is this possible? Sure. Is it likely? No, it's not. Go look for games where scum are actually given false claims. It doesn't happen that often.
3)This one feels a little trapish, frankly. There's no real response that I can say other than 'yeah right'.
I aggressively pursued Dragondart or whomever it was that got lynched the day after WoD did.
It was JodoYodo, and anyone can go back and look, you've got three or four two line posts attacking JY. Hardly even pursuing, let alone aggressive pursuit.
Quote from Cyan »
My role was overwhelmingly town in Matrix? Really? Is that why I nearly got lynched and only avoided it because Axel piped in and confirmed as much of my story as he could.
Double-Life Bodyguard to someone who granted another player a daykill? I don't care what that town thought, that is overwhelmingly pro-town, and the fact that Axel could confirm enough to keep you from being lynched supports that.
Quote from Cyan »
It is overwhelmingly obvious to me that Elastigirl is a town role, and it's ridiculous that people want to play Devil's Advocate about it. There is no 'knowing better' on Day 1. This whole thing is ridiculous, you don't just go into a themed game, assuming that flavor is not going to be relevant.
Theme games where flavor didn't matter: both Star Treks, Doomsday, Hamlet, both Hollywoods, Insane Asylum. Theme Games where false claims were provided: Harry Potter, FF7, Song of Ice and Fire.
I dare say that there are more games that employ one of the two methods than ones that don't, so working under the assumption that this game doesn't is clearly faulty.
Quote from Cyan »
If anything, knowing that I was going to have to claim soon would make me LESS likely to claim E/Female/Other immediately after someone else did, not moreso!
What I'm saying is that that is an easy loophole, particularly because of the large pool of potential claims. You know you're going to have to claim, so when soft claiming you make the same claim as another player. You still have a large pool to claim from, and afterwards, you can say "why would I have done that if I was lying?"
So there's the WIFOM explination, the safe claim possibility, and the possibility that flavor doesn't matter, all possibilities that could explain how you could soft claim Elastagirl without worrying about it.
Quote from Cyan »
...
What does bussing have to do with anything here, I don't even understand the implication.
You're attacking DYH for switching to the same target as you after your first wagon fell through. It is perfectly reasonable for DYH, as town, to suspect you of being scum and still vote numegil, seeing as you easily could just be bussing your scumbuddy.
Quote from Cyan »
I haven't said that I was laying low to draw a NK because I wasn't.
Re-read my post, you're repeating what I said. Somebody said you should've been more active as an untargettable townie. You said the arguement could go both ways, because historically you get nightkilled more when you're quiet, but it can't go both ways because you never said that you were laying low to draw a nightkill.
You said you had nothing to talk about. Either you're townie, and telling the truth about that, or you're scum, and you are quieter as scum. You being a townie and laying low to draw a nightkill was never an option, because as a townie, you wouldn't lie about doing that.
Quote from Cyan »
I don't even like that you're referring to it as 'laying low', the scummy implications in that are clear, and I don't think that was the case. I was not intentionally avoiding the thread, there was nothing to say. Every freaking game, at the start, I tell myself that I'm going to play more lowkey and observational. It's just not fun to play the way I do anymore.
And every freaking game, you fail at it, except when you are scum.
Quote from Cyan »
I don't have to fear a NK *anyway*, I almost never get NKed early. You are arguing an approach to being untargetable that I simply don't agree with. That doesn't make it a tell on my part, it makes it a difference in playstyle.
You were daykilled Day 1 of BR and Nightkilled Night 1 of Star trek EU. Clearly "never" is a relative term?
And you may not usually get nightkilled early, but the policy also applies to getting nightkilled later in the game, which most definately does happen to you.
[The Family]
Cross Examination, your honor. I'm entitled to cross examination, as opposing counsel would know if he stopped watching law & order.
In all seriousness, how so?
419 and 437 make it sound like you have doubts about your read of DYH. Doesn't mean that you can't be neutral on him (I'm neutral on Tilde atm but that's mainly due to having no clue on how to read him). Anyhow, I thought your doubts on DYH also meant you had doubts on Cyan (Hence the unvote) and thus was the reason you were pursuing other leads.
Better Question, why back to Cyan now? What changed? Seriously, I should pose this question to everyone who dropped off the wagon and then just jumped back on, but CC will do for now.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Whatever, I'll just claim so we can move on. Maybe then you guys will believe what I was saying all along.
I am Elastigirl. My flexibility allows me to be untargetable.
CropCircles - 1 (Dagger)
Cyan - 7 (andelijah, Abandon Hope, The Mad Tapper, DYH, RobRoy, goatrevolt, CropCircles)
DYH - 1 (Cubus)
Infinis - 1 (~Tilde~)
The Mad Tapper - 1 (loran16)
With 18 alive it's 10 to lynch.
Aaaaand the claim gives me no reason to not want to see Cyan swing.
[The Family]
The tension builds. Our fearless hero locks eyes with loran16. Time seems to stand still. With blinding speed, loran16 strikes! TMT braces himself for the initial assault and prepares his counterattack.
My accusation is untrue, you say? Hardly! Cyan's post on Dagger was an attack, yes, but hardly as abrasive as one would expect from Cyan. The other three posts are small and mostly insignificant, and not what you'd call aggressive. "RR's post looks bad, but I don't think it's scummy." To say my accusation is "untrue" is disingenuous at best.
My other two targets are "cruddy easy ones"? This kind of attack is weak, and reeks of sinister motives. If a player does something obviously suspicious or scummy, there is nothing wrong at all with pointing it out. You criticize the Cyan wagon for being based on meta and not scummy behavior (conveniently ignoring the lurking, which indeed is scummy), yet when I point out scummy behavior in other players you cry "Oh look, he's attacking easy targets!" Your attack here is a double standard, a pitiful attempt to tarnish my good name.
And hiding behind a PR? Hah! No one tells TMT how to post! And I do not hide from danger; I face it with the courage of a true hero! So what if I am prone to self-narration? What good hero's story is unnarrated?
I stand behind my vote on Cyan. His normally abrasive tone has only showed up when confronted. His attacks on players other than his attackers have been tame by comparison. His posting level is much lower than I would expect from him, and his current absense smells of avoidance. He hopes the pressure will let up while the players are distracted by other matters.
Record: 3-2
Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
Doomsday Mafia - Mafia Roleblocker - Win
Battle Royale Mafia - Serial Daykiller - Loss
Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
Record: 3-2
Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
Doomsday Mafia - Mafia Roleblocker - Win
Battle Royale Mafia - Serial Daykiller - Loss
Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
Record: 3-2
Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
Doomsday Mafia - Mafia Roleblocker - Win
Battle Royale Mafia - Serial Daykiller - Loss
Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
I'll play the metagame.
@TMT: Considering the implied consequences, I'd support some restraint in cogitoing.
Errrr...what does this even mean?
Attempt at deciphering (Please clear up asap though):
"I (AH) think that the role could be either town or scum, so its a null-tell. It's also a role that a scum GF might claim since it's testable. I think I'll go with what we had on Cyan before since the claim doesn't do anything and will keep my vote on."
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
At some point before, I think I did say they certainly could have as well.
Clearly I couldn't have looked over his posts to attempt to see where I went wrong because he only made a measily three. Likewise, I felt it would be good to look at the players on his wagon because the 3 others on his wagon have been suspected by multiple people on multiple occasions. Thus, I felt it would be a good idea to isolate a small incident and look at all three of them with a tremendous amount of scrutiny in attempt to get some reads one way or the other on them.
I like the part where you say that the role explains my play regardless of alignment, but apparently don't realize that this completely and utterly defeats the 'metagame'(all one game of it ) argument.
While I agree that the ability I claimed could go either way, the role that I claimed cannot. It's a game about superheroes, and my role is Elastigirl. You can't get much more pro-town than that.
I also love the fact that no one even noticed the way DYH just went immediately back to my wagon after Numegil got modkilled.
DYH knows I'm not scum. If he thought I was scum, there's no way that he was going to get on the Numegil wagon immediately after I did, unless he thought I was trying to bus a scumbuddy, and he would have made that abundtantly clear.
For all we know the scum are all children. Or they're all women (and some women are falseclaiming). Who knows. Saying your rolename should clear you, is stupid.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
But on a blank slate, the logical deduction is that flavor is relevant. And Elastigirl as as town as possible.
And relying on flavor as a defense... not helping.
Untargetable scum tend to be GFs. Thus i thought you were saying a GF (aka untargetable scum) would claim untargetable.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Not anything in the above makes any sense. Even if we had any idea what the flavor for the scum was, which we don't, he still could have just picked any ol' superhero, and would have an incredibly small chance of getting counterclaimed. His rolename does absolutely nothing to clear him.
The bit about DYH is bull too. As though DYH would absolutely have to behave in the way that Cyan thinks he would.
And Cyan's inability to accept the flaws in his "defense" is classic scum Cyan. Go check out Hollywood 2, where he claimed a role that didn't confirm him in the least, and yet he insisted relentlessly that it was obviously not a scum role. (Come to think of it, he wasn't very aggressive that game either...)
Vote stands.
[The Family]
Do you really have to try that hard to make this ♥♥♥♥♥♥ case seem better against me than it is?
And my 'inability to accept the flaws in my defense' is just how I am, it has nothing to do with me being scum. Go read Matrix Mafia(town) or Cartoon Mafia(town) for some examples of situations where I claimed roles that I felt it was overwhelmingly obvious were town, only to have people disagree with me relentlessly.
And your example about 'picking an old superhero' MIGHT be relevant, if not for the softclaim that we were all forced into. Are you really saying that I saw you claim 'E/FEMALE/OTHER' and still figured that my best false claim option was to claim Elastigirl? Seriously, get a clue. I claimed my real role, a role that is overwhelmingly likely to be town.
As for DYH, it has little to do with him personally and alot to do with common sense. Are you honestly going to sit there and tell me that, if you're town, you're going to happily hop onto a wagon that someone you were just trying to get lynched just joined? There is no way that it happens this way. At the very least, some kind of comment would have been made, particularly by a player of DYH's caliber.
As for Numegil - I had already blasted his lack of content prior to your vote of him. I have already explained this, please read the thread. I simply wanted some contributions from him and was ready to move on to RR (at the time), but I've explained that change as well.
It's time for you to swing, Cyan. You're scum.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Aptly put.
Unvote, Vote Cyan
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
So now it's that I'm lying about being untargetable? Yeah okay. Untargetability is the easiest thing in the world to test.
And you are woefully incorrect when you say that I'd have been more aggressive because I'm untargetable. I *hate* being untargetable.
I see Cyan has Nat'd me during the creation of this post.
@ Cyan - why do you hate being untargettable when you can run rampant without the fear of dying?
@ MOD - vote count, please? kthnx
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
Seriously, this entire thing is nonsense. The original 'case' on me involved all of *one* example where I didn't post alot early in the game, and somehow this became a 'metagame analysis'. And I have already explained this circumstance. I am tired of the playstyle I have maintained, it is too exhausting. CropCircles, of all people, should know that I'm being truthful when I make that statement.
DYH and CC, the leading candidates on my wagon, both made terrible arguments to get me here, all of which I refuted. Even *after* I claimed, they continued to make bad arguments, and I have continued to refute them. And anyone saying that flavor 'can't be a factor' when nothing is known is only saying so because their role is flavorfully bad.
This wagon is a joke.
You mean based on knowledge of BR alone as the only instance you have seen of Cyan as mafia, you would have supported a claim from Cyan? You quoted that as if that's the determining point but what about the other games that have been quoted to you by the others like DYH and Ande? If that point alone would have convinced you to join in Cyan's wagon, why wouldn't the other games quoted as example have convinced you beforehand?
I mentioned that before Cyan reached the claim threshold, we might want to pursue the soft claims first. That was done from a strategic point of view. That point alone was not a supporting factor of Cyan's wagon, as I would have suggested it anyway in view of any other player's wagon. As thus, I did not really care whether Cyan did the partial claim first or not as the primary purpose of the soft claim was to limit the scums' claiming range. If you suggest that somehow it would be beneficial for Cyan to soft claim first, then you are of the opinion that Cyan as a scum could utilize the soft claims for his own nefarious purpose. I do not share that opinion. I believe that the scums could derive no benefit from the soft claims at all. As thus, IMO, it doesn't really matter the order of the soft claims. If it matters, then would we say the last person to soft claim has a higher probability of being scum? That's WIFOM logic at best and is nothing concrete.
I am critical when I want to divine another player's motivations. You'll note I was not only critical of Cyan, but of those players I think made a discrepancy in their thoughts or actions. As thus, I was not looking at Cyan specifically as you believed. He was not the person I was most suspicious of or the person I wanted to pursue most. He was merely a player I think could be a good lead to pressure on. You conveniently forgot to mention that I listed Some One in the same sentence I talked about Cyan. I will freely offer this, at the point when I made that post of mine, my scum list had only two people: Cyan and SO.
Right now, Cyan would be one of the three people I am leaning scum on.
It was actually. I have a problem with the thinking out loud part. Your statement didn't really answer my question:
You claimed you were thinking out loud. But it really seemed as if you were asking a question of the town, quoted again down here:
And thus making my question relevant.
You made a conclusion on Cyan's playstyle as a scum but then added in a disclaimer? Doesn't that made your conclusion WIFOM?
More coming up.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
@ Cyan - why should CC know you are being truthful when you make that statement about the fact you are sick of your "typical" playstyle? Also, above all else, we know you are a magnet for night actions, but why would people have any reason to be suspicious if you upheld your "typical" playstyle?
And your conclusion?
A case? I didn't see Roja ending his post with a vote on Cyan nor did he make any definite conclusion about it. What makes you think he was making a case?
I would have thought that if your opinion was really changed, you wouldn't have added in the bit about "I fear a day 1 mislynch (as everyone should)" to support your previous position. Also, I find it disturbing you would agree to a dead townie, inactive or no. In addition, I find it indicative that you would indirectly cite Cyan as an active town and then list me as the other one (to warn me off?).
Actually, I find myself in agreement with this point on RR.
I find myself agreeing with this point as well.
More coming up.
Apologies about the short burst of posts. I'm currently in my hometown and the net connection is sporadic at best. I'll scream if I lose another post I painstakingly typed.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
Curious, then, that you act in a manner that is more likely to draw important town night actions (like a cop) and not important scum ones (like a nightkill). I'm also not sure why, especially if you think your role is so absolutely town, you would be afraid of being found out to be untargetable during the night, but you have no qualms claiming it whatsoever.
Salvation Mafia Clan
Mafia Stats
last updated 03/23/11
In reality, however, I doubt that me not posting as much is going to make a Cop try to investigate me. This is a terrible argument.
And what do you mean, 'no qualms claiming it'? I was at 3 to lynch out of 10, obviously it was time for me to claim. I figured that I'd claim and you guys would finally get over yourselves and move on. It's unreal that we're still having this conversation. The difference between being 'found out' now and being 'found out' at night when someone tries to target me is that this is on my terms.
The point it is making is that if you have been untargettable in the past (which I am going to guess you were), why would you *hate* that? It would enable you to behave in a clearly pro-town manner without the fear of being killed. A cop wouldn't want to investigate you because he'd be able to see in plain sight you were town, and most likely, instead, investigate some of the people you displayed a moderate suspicion of or uncertainty overall about.
My point is, what's the difference? Why is it somehow scummier to be found to be untargetable at night as opposed to now? Why should you be afraid of getting caught at night since the result would be the same as it is now - you claiming.
Salvation Mafia Clan
Mafia Stats
last updated 03/23/11
Tell you what. When you have name claimed, you explain this misunderstanding to us. If your story matched, we should understand your rationale then.
This is a very good question.
How would you know?
It has lots and lots of what-if and sounds more like a rambling than anything else.
I have my own rationale on CC's action with his scumlist, but I'm not sure I should be posting it. XDXDXD
I disagree with this. Play with Cubus long enough and you'll find he WILL do this as scum as well. It's not really a tell for him.
I listed them because they were in my scumlist. I didn't really follow up on them because I was leaning scum on Cyan due to metagame and leaning scum on Some One due to his actions during the soft claims (I can't really remember, so I'll need a reread there).
Cyan being aggressive means he comes out guns ablazing on someone and repeatedly state that said someone is scum based on a tell or another, and refusing to yield like a rabid bloodthirsty dog, even if half the town are yelling at him to stop.
Participating in a discussion is different than participating in a game. One requires hindsight and the other requires foresight. Also, you can check out my previous posts for my positions on various players.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
I didn't say it was scummy, merely weird. And I can see the rationale you give for this point.
Again, good reasoning. The first paragraph hinted at a WIFOM argument though.
The first sentence is true. It could really lean either way. By remaining neutral, you won't be running the risk of antagonizing one side or the other, and possibly has a higher survival rate. That's what I could think of on the spot though.
Examples of said scum game? I remembered Roja quoting the last few games Cyan played. If the game you have in mind was not in that list, where exactly did you get your examples from?
And what is the conclusion of our intrepid hero?
Quoted this for truth.
In the meantime, Ced has a case of sorts on you. Maybe you would like to look over it at #497 and tell us what you think of it? As well as mine at #555.
You believed Cyan's actions were asynchronous with his claims, and then you excused them due to a weird setup. However, you cited "glaring contradiction between their arguments and their behavior" as a solid evidence for a day 1 lynch, which would be valid in this case.
You shifted your stance yet again. Quite frankly, I believe you are scum.
A few notes:
1. I don't agree with loran's case on TMT. Frankly, I don't agree with the majority of his list. Period.
2. I support a Cyan's lynch. And Jql as well actually. Consider my votes on them.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
FF7 most recently, TV mafia 2, Star Trek Mafia (Axelrod edition).
Those are off the top of my head.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I'm fine with proceeding with a lynch. I second the call for our intrepid hero to provide us with his considerations, though.
The FFVII reference is terrible, he was an unkillable SK for the first three days. You know TV mafia is a bogus example because the scum were aware everyone was a cop, and Star Trek was Cyan's very first game here as scum. Care to try and find anything relevant and recent to use?
Hint: You can't.
For someone arguing that I was using a small sample size for comparison in meta, you don't have a leg to stand on here.
Cyan tryied to rely on flavor to save him, which tells me he's desperate and reaching for some indication of what his buddies can expect to find in the townie PMs.
He's since abandoned that with loran's prodding and has now gone to attacking CC and me as making poor accusations which he's refuted. Considering both of those things are false (the accusations are accurate, and he's not refuted anything), this is pretty cut and dry.
Oh, and Cyan, I don't doubt you're untargetable, I just think you're untargetable and scum. If you were town and untargetable, you wouldn't have been concerned with people being suspicious of you; you'd have been playing your normal game - this totally speaks to mindset, and you're playing with a scum one beyond the shadow of a doubt.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
If he IS untargetable scum, then FF7 is a valid example, since he's kind of unkillable. I don't recall him being unlynchable scum in ff7.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
TMT hears a voice behind him. He cautiously turns around to stand face to face with the mysterious Dagger. But there is no time for introductions. The man is ready to get down to business.
The villain has made his claim, and now we must decide his fate. He says his name alone should clear him. "This is a game about superheroes, after all! Of course Elastigirl is town!" But as he himself pointed out, it's a game of superheroes, not supervillains! The scum themselves may very well be heroes, or perhaps more accurately former heroes. And what of the previous suggestion that the scum have disguises? The name alone proves nothing. But what of the role? Untargetability could go either way as a role, but in conjunction with his behavior I must conclude that it is scummy. As an untargetable townie, I would expect Cyan to be more aggressive, not less. He mentions that he tends to draw night-actions, and that failed night-actions make people suspicious. But Cyan has always struck me as much too bold to worry about such things. It strikes me as more likely that his fear of suspicion stems from his alignment rather than a genuine concern for the town. Ultimately, I conclude that my vote shall stand.
Finished with addressing Dagger's question, our hero turns to JqlGirl. Reaching into his belt, he pulls out a FoSium hand-grenade.
I have but one vote, but the actions of the devious JqlGirl cannot go unanswered. Her waffling on Cyan, "explained" by her claim that it is just her nature to flip between opposing opinions, is a travesty. She fears to look like she's barning, but also fears how it will look if she avoids a wagon of a scummy player. So in her desperation she tries to ride the fence, issuing a "major FoS" but then saying that the wagon just isn't solid enough for her vote.
In a blur of motion, TMT's hand swings forward. The FoSium grenade flies with unnatural precision toward its target.
FoS JqlGirl
My research indicates that he was indeed unlynchable, but only for the first three days of the game. Furthermore, in FF7 he would specifically show up as town when investigated, rather than the investigation failing. The difference between his role here and his role in FF7 fits perfectly with the differing behavior.
Record: 3-2
Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
Doomsday Mafia - Mafia Roleblocker - Win
Battle Royale Mafia - Serial Daykiller - Loss
Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
The first bit is different. The 2nd bit is not....as scum he still wouldn't fear investigations or kills, so less need to not go aggressive.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
This is the same argument that you had with me. I still maintain that if someone clearly states a neutral position, with reasons, then this isn't itself scummy.
I really dislike this. First, we have no clue who the scum are, so there's no point of reference to compare to. Secondly, we have no confirmation that Cyan is actually Elastigirl, and without that, the assurance that Elastigirl is townie is worthless. However:
This is a valid point. I don't like the fact that Cyan claimed at the end of the soft-claim list, trailed only by Abandon Hope. However, he did make a claim that matched CropCircles', and he's right that this would be a horrible thing for scum to do if lying. This produces three possible scenarios:
1) Cyan is townie, and Elastigirl.
2) Cyan is scum and was provided Elastigirl as a false-claim.
3) Cyan is co-scum with CropCircles, and they have two claims set up for that letter combination. CC also claimed near the end, so this could have been done deliberately.
I'm at home with the folks this weekend, and while I've grabbed some time to do this post I don't have enough time to do a reread and see if I believe 3) or not. I'll have to come back to that. In the meantime, while I am still suspicious of Cyan, I don't think I want him to die in the next couple RL days, so for now I will:
unvote Cyan.
I really dislike this post for the waffling and ass-covering that it provides, but that isn't really enough for me to base anything on. I'll have to add JqlGirl to my list of people to do a reread on.
As I said, I don't have enough right now to do full rereads, and also don't have enough time to deal with Dagger's walls of text - which, thank you for, anyway. I'll answer a few of the things directly addressed at me here, and come back for other points later.
My initial post that I referenced in the one you linked gives you the answer. When the Cyan wagon was first building, I was thinking "He posts a lot as a townie (Fiasco, Doomsday) as SK (FFVII) and as mafia (BR), so I don't know what it means that he isn't posting a lot." Once you remove BR from that mix, I'm a lot more willing to believe that the lack of posting could be indicative of his alignment.
This is a point of disagreement, then. Suppose you are scum. Would you rather have to lock in your soft-claim before or after knowing the soft-claims of the members of the town? The obvious answer is after - I think it's unlikely that every member of the scum would have a false-claim, so (if their names are obviously scummy) some of them are going to have to just make stuff up. You'd rather know that you can claim safely than have to sit there wondering if the claim you've made up is going to conflict with someone else. Now, I'll grant that there are other names out there; the downside to the scum claiming early is fairly low. But it is a downside, and arguing otherwise is being deliberately blind.
I gave my position on the topic while also inviting others to comment. I did both. I don't see why you have a problem with this.
More to come tonight or tomorrow.
Several differences:
1) He was SK - which allowed him to hunt scum. He is probable mafia in this game.
2) He was unkillable - which allowed him to hunt scum.
3) He was uninvestigatable - which allowed him to act as aggressive as he wanted.
4) He was unlynchable - you get the point.
You maintained no position, not a neutral one. You gave a large list of people and said "If Cyan is town, they are [alignment], but if Cyan is scum, they are [other]."
And goat gave a neutral position with reasons why they were scummy.
Salvation Mafia Clan
Mafia Stats
last updated 03/23/11
And I'm not trying to make the case seemed better, I made an off hand comment when I remembered that game. The case is solid as is.
You're role in Matrix was overwhelmingly obviously town, the fact that you were a traitor was one of the biggest mistakes in MTGS history, imo. And Cartoon was a long time ago, you've grown a lot as a player since then. I would fully expect you to realize the flaws in demanding that you claiming Elastigirl would do anything to clear you in a game where we have no idea if the scum have false claims, or that they would even need to false claim.
WIFOM, you could have easily set that up with the intention of bringing this point up once you claimed. You were brought close to a claim earlier, you surely would have reaslized that you were likely to have to claim sometime soon.
It's called bussing. Scum do it. A player of DYH's calibur would realize that as well. (Hi Ged!)
The fact that you are saying that arguement could go both ways, and not arguing that you were laying low to draw a nightkill, makes this entire point void. The arguement could go both ways, but you haven't actually argued that it was a certain way. You say you just didn't have anything to talk about, which is neither side of that arguement, and it is the idea that you just couldn't find anything to talk about which is the unbelievable part.
Missing the point. You don't have to fear a Nightkill, ergo you should have no reason to not go balls out.
This really a minor point, anyway. It's just one more straw.
@RobRoy: Just cut your losses and bus him. I promise, it'll get you more brownie points than advising caution.
[The Family]
I aggressively pursued Dragondart or whomever it was that got lynched the day after WoD did.
My role was overwhelmingly town in Matrix? Really? Is that why I nearly got lynched and only avoided it because Axel piped in and confirmed as much of my story as he could. It is overwhelmingly obvious to me that Elastigirl is a town role, and it's ridiculous that people want to play Devil's Advocate about it. There is no 'knowing better' on Day 1. This whole thing is ridiculous, you don't just go into a themed game, assuming that flavor is not going to be relevant.
If anything, knowing that I was going to have to claim soon would make me LESS likely to claim E/Female/Other immediately after someone else did, not moreso!
...
What does bussing have to do with anything here, I don't even understand the implication.
I haven't said that I was laying low to draw a NK because I wasn't. I don't even like that you're referring to it as 'laying low', the scummy implications in that are clear, and I don't think that was the case. I was not intentionally avoiding the thread, there was nothing to say. Every freaking game, at the start, I tell myself that I'm going to play more lowkey and observational. It's just not fun to play the way I do anymore.
I don't have to fear a NK *anyway*, I almost never get NKed early. You are arguing an approach to being untargetable that I simply don't agree with. That doesn't make it a tell on my part, it makes it a difference in playstyle.
Did you read what you quoted before responding to it? I acknowledged in there that you'd given positions. I was bemoaning the fact that you weren't giving us your opinions on Cyan, either before or after I raised him as an issue again. You know - the guy you said initially was scum?
Yes. Yes, I did. Was I wrong? Are you arguing with my analysis at all? I tossed some analysis into the pool, knowing that it wasn't of immediate use. Are you trying to say that I shouldn't have made that post? Do you believe that me making that post was not a townie action? If not, why are you complaining so much? The only thing I can think of is that you're trying to discredit the analysis by attacking me. Why else are you making a fuss about this?
Trust me, if he was my scumbuddy, I wouldn't have resurrected his wagon in the first place.
CropCircles didn't respond to this, and you didn't raise the point again in your response to him. Why should CC think you're changing your style?
The flavour is relevant - if we can trust it. We have nothing but your word that you are actually Elastigirl. As I posted earlier, there are a couple of scenarios in which you would claim this despite CropCircles making a matching soft-claim.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I don't like the fact he failed to address one of the points I brought up that you agreed with, along with another point I had.
On that note, does any further discussion need to occur before we see him swing?
He didn't respond and I didn't reply because I made that comment out of frustration, and it refers to something ongoing, so I shouldn't have said anything. Nevermind about it.
2)Is this possible? Sure. Is it likely? No, it's not. Go look for games where scum are actually given false claims. It doesn't happen that often.
3)This one feels a little trapish, frankly. There's no real response that I can say other than 'yeah right'.
Double-Life Bodyguard to someone who granted another player a daykill? I don't care what that town thought, that is overwhelmingly pro-town, and the fact that Axel could confirm enough to keep you from being lynched supports that.
Theme games where flavor didn't matter: both Star Treks, Doomsday, Hamlet, both Hollywoods, Insane Asylum. Theme Games where false claims were provided: Harry Potter, FF7, Song of Ice and Fire.
I dare say that there are more games that employ one of the two methods than ones that don't, so working under the assumption that this game doesn't is clearly faulty.
What I'm saying is that that is an easy loophole, particularly because of the large pool of potential claims. You know you're going to have to claim, so when soft claiming you make the same claim as another player. You still have a large pool to claim from, and afterwards, you can say "why would I have done that if I was lying?"
So there's the WIFOM explination, the safe claim possibility, and the possibility that flavor doesn't matter, all possibilities that could explain how you could soft claim Elastagirl without worrying about it.
You're attacking DYH for switching to the same target as you after your first wagon fell through. It is perfectly reasonable for DYH, as town, to suspect you of being scum and still vote numegil, seeing as you easily could just be bussing your scumbuddy.
Re-read my post, you're repeating what I said. Somebody said you should've been more active as an untargettable townie. You said the arguement could go both ways, because historically you get nightkilled more when you're quiet, but it can't go both ways because you never said that you were laying low to draw a nightkill.
You said you had nothing to talk about. Either you're townie, and telling the truth about that, or you're scum, and you are quieter as scum. You being a townie and laying low to draw a nightkill was never an option, because as a townie, you wouldn't lie about doing that.
And every freaking game, you fail at it, except when you are scum.
You were daykilled Day 1 of BR and Nightkilled Night 1 of Star trek EU. Clearly "never" is a relative term?
And you may not usually get nightkilled early, but the policy also applies to getting nightkilled later in the game, which most definately does happen to you.
[The Family]