I'm moving on; if anyone else has a problem with my position on the soft-claim, I've answered it sufficiently above. Unless you can create a feasible argument that shows how it will be harmful to the town, I'm not changing my mind.
Vote: Cyan
He has yet to weigh in on the soft-claim discussion, or anything relevant for that matter - and we know that isn't Cyan's town style. I want him in here and I want him talking.
He has yet to weigh in on the soft-claim discussion, or anything relevant for that matter - and we know that isn't Cyan's town style. I want him in here and I want him talking.
I gotta disagree with this (it being a scum tell, not the part about wanting him talking :-P)....it's not cyan's scum style either. Which makes it a null tell really.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I gotta disagree with this (it being a scum tell, not the part about wanting him talking :-P)....it's not cyan's scum style either. Which makes it a null tell really.
Did you read Prehistoric Mafia?
Look, it's not a perfect tell by any means, but it's certainly not his normal Cyan gung-ho townie style. I want to know why he's avoiding the thread; he's posted elsewhere since this all started.
Look, it's not a perfect tell by any means, but it's certainly not his normal Cyan gung-ho townie style. I want to know why he's avoiding the thread; he's posted elsewhere since this all started.
Surprisingly no, no i haven't. but i've read so many other scum Cyan games that I still disagree about it being a tell.
oh of course: GTHC, GTH (ES!)
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Start at about post #297 (Prehistoric - when I replace in) and read what goes on from there.
Yes, it's far too early to make an overall lurking accusation against him, but I've already addressed what I want to hear from him. And yes, it's not just the lurking, but the utter lack of content in his posts in Prehistoric that twinged Andelijah first and me, too, upon entering the game.
You'll have to forgive me if I'm feeling somewhat humbled at the moment.
I haven't seen much to talk about so far. I'm opposed to the softclaim. I'm virtually always opposed to any kind of massclaim(Rurouni Kenshin is the only exception I can think of, and the circumstances in that game were...remarkable).
I'm particularly unimpressed by the argument that CC made where he said that lots of times people realized, in hindsight, that some kind of massclaim would have helped alot. Even if this has happened a few times, there are far more circumstances were this type of action would have doomed the town instead.
I also feel that DYH backpedaled on his vote against Loran pretty quickly. I don't think there was reason for it in the first place, but, I thought it was out of character.
I also think he is misrepresenting me somewhat. Sometimes I come out the door gunning, sometimes I don't. The random phase in this game felt like it went on longer than normal.
I'm particularly unimpressed by the argument that CC made where he said that lots of times people realized, in hindsight, that some kind of massclaim would have helped alot. Even if this has happened a few times, there are far more circumstances were this type of action would have doomed the town instead.
Name one.
I can't talk about ongoing games, but there's a very recent example that people can read over in BR Mafia.
Cold War, the scum had a list of potential rolenames, so we pushed a Shaman style soft claim which blew up in my face when DYH had info that the "Commander" was scum, and I was quickly lynched. We as scum hardly actually gained anything from it.
The Shaman role(mafia with a list of the town's rolenames) is one that's showed up all of twice(as far as I know) and this set-up isn't ripe for such a role. It only shows up when players have generic titles for rolenames. (Peacekeeper, Sailor, etc.)
I understand this part of your post and the rationale of it. What I don't understand is the reason you made said post in the first place? This felt entirely like a preemptive defense of AH, since you are quoting him attacking DYH and then saying the rationale behind those attacks are valid?
It has nothing to do with defending AH or a preemptive defense or what have you. I don't think people were even attacking AH. Nobody understood what he was saying. I understood, and it actually was a valid point to make. By clearing it up, I made it so people understood what he was saying and also showed my agreement with it.
I can't talk about ongoing games, but there's a very recent example that people can read over in BR Mafia.
Cold War, the scum had a list of potential rolenames, so we pushed a Shaman style soft claim which blew up in my face when DYH had info that the "Commander" was scum, and I was quickly lynched. We as scum hardly actually gained anything from it.
The Shaman role(mafia with a list of the town's rolenames) is one that's showed up all of twice(as far as I know) and this set-up isn't ripe for such a role. It only shows up when players have generic titles for rolenames. (Peacekeeper, Sailor, etc.)
So without that, how could a soft claim hurt us?
I'm not saying that it never could have been beneficial. Obviously there are games where it would have been. I'm saying that making an argument based on something people realized in hindsight is a logical fallacy. If it came up more often than not that such a claim would have greatly benefited the town, that would be one thing. But that simply is not the case. It comes up every once inawhile, sure. In games that were probably poorly designed to begin with. I prefer not to start a game on the premise that the design is flawed in a way that a mass information dump will actually benefit the town.
Though TMT is usually opposed to early mass-claims of any scope, this one does not strike him as possessing any real potential danger to the town. If the scum have been given "disguises" in the form of safe-claims, then the soft-claim is no gain but no loss either. If they don't, the town has forced them to narrow their range of claims. There isn't really any danger of outing power roles with this, either. After careful consideration, TMT will support the soft-claim plan.
I'm not saying that it never could have been beneficial. Obviously there are games where it would have been. I'm saying that making an argument based on something people realized in hindsight is a logical fallacy. If it came up more often than not that such a claim would have greatly benefited the town, that would be one thing. But that simply is not the case. It comes up every once inawhile, sure. In games that were probably poorly designed to begin with. I prefer not to start a game on the premise that the design is flawed in a way that a mass information dump will actually benefit the town.
You're missing the point.
If a soft claim would be beneficial to the town in 3% of games, and harmful in 0% of games, is it not more likely to be beneficial here, in spite of how little it would help?
And the set-up is ripe for it, in spite of the large number of possible false claims. Nearly any themed game can be benefited from this, even if it doesn't outright catch scum, it can help.
If the possibility that it can help is greater then the possibility that it could hurt, why not go ahead?
The point of my earlier arguement(RE BR Mafia) was to combat the idea that the set-up is not ripe for a mass soft claim. My point is - we don't know the set-up. We do it because the way games are normally desinged on this site has shown that forcing the scum into their false claims early can easily be beneficial, and very rarely has it ever been harmful. It's the nature of the game.
Saying it's useless when you can't possibly know that(unless you're scum, of course) is not a reason not to do it.
EBWODP: And the fact that Ged is being so strict about quoting our character quote or linking our character link suggests that he has not provided false claims. Why would he be concerned about making it difficult for scum to false claim, if he had provided false claims?
I'm moving on; if anyone else has a problem with my position on the soft-claim, I've answered it sufficiently above. Unless you can create a feasible argument that shows how it will be harmful to the town, I'm not changing my mind.
Vote: Cyan
He has yet to weigh in on the soft-claim discussion, or anything relevant for that matter - and we know that isn't Cyan's town style. I want him in here and I want him talking.
I entirely agree with you, but I was hoping you'd wait until real discussion started to bring this up against him.
Unvote, Vote: Cyan
Quote from CropCircles »
EBWODP: And the fact that Ged is being so strict about quoting our character quote or linking our character link suggests that he has not provided false claims. Why would he be concerned about making it difficult for scum to false claim, if he had provided false claims?
I doubt he would provide entire alternate role pm's for the scum - just names if anything.
EBWODP: And the fact that Ged is being so strict about quoting our character quote or linking our character link suggests that he has not provided false claims. Why would he be concerned about making it difficult for scum to false claim, if he had provided false claims?
Perhaps he forgot to give the scum fake quotes and links for their fake claims? I forgot to give the scum in aSoIaF a part of everyone's rolenames for their pre-given false claims and had to restrict claims to make it fair.
Course you are right that Ged's restriction does make it pretty likely that the scum's real rolenames are in fact scummy-sounding.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
AH also makes a valid point about the math bit, however the current state of the soft claiming suitably narrows it down enough to where it will actually make a noticable difference.
All I care about is alignment. That is not sufficiently limited by even a
Quote from goatrevolt »
The only thing we're claiming is the first letter of your character name, the gender, and whether it is a DC/Marvel/neither brand of superhero.
claim of flavor. I'm sure alignment will either be asynchronous with flavor, or covered by false claims. Any claim, full to sub is irrelevant to detecting alignment. In short: It will not make a noticeable difference in anything I care about.
However. They will reveal information on flavor. Which has every relevance for the silly games the flavorful roles play. I'm not interested in enabling that.
Quote from ~Tilde~ »
<ping> : Translation - DYH has changed his motivation from a gradual series of minor claims in an effort to trap scum into a straight-on partial claim, which the scum would likely be able to sneak through.
No. Opposite in fact.
Quote from DYH »
Again - I'm still waiting for you to show how it won't be beneficial to the town when both Goatrevolt and I have explained how it will; you can argue it until you're blue in the face, but soft-claims do limit the false-claiming ability of the scum. You're flat-out wrong.
Burden of proof is on you. Show how they'll help. Other than this limiting nonsense. It is true, but not sufficient or even useful.
Quote from DYH »
I'm moving on; if anyone else has a problem with my position on the soft-claim, I've answered it sufficiently above. Unless you can create a feasible argument that shows how it will be harmful to the town, I'm not changing my mind.
Is this the first time you've ended an argument by ignoring it this game?
@GR: I'm not going to take credit for your clarification of why the soft-claim limits scum. You did a better job explaining it than I did.
@AH: No, it's not. I did it with Loran, too. In both cases, the argument is exhausted; I have nothing else to add. As far as showing how it helps, I've already pointed to two games where it did, and presented my idea why it helps overall.
I believe the soft claim may be a lot more illuminating then a normal soft claim. Why do I believe this? The game set up.
1) Why would any gamer, worth there fanboy salt, need wikipedia for most superheroes?
2) Why is it that "false claiming will be hard enough as it is"?
Both these statements make me think that maybe we're going towards lesser known heroes? Like Thundarr, or the Wonder Twins. But number two bothers me a lot. It has been well pointed out that a false soft claim would be easy to back up, unless some major flavor issues arise later.
Normally I would be against what I perceive as a very weak tell, with this soft claim, but as I stated above I think the soft claim might be very helpful as the game progresses.
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
Yes, I did throw it out because it seemed an interesting piece of information in conjunction with the softclaim. Tilde appears to have made a connection with it already.
Your response to it, however struck me as fearmongering more than any townie-leaning caution, and I also felt that you leapt to conclusions rather than considered possibilities.
When I was reading it appeared to me that your comment was overlooked by others. I wanted to mention it as I found it to be important factor to consider.
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A Seeker role could push this for their own purposes - I was in a FFVII mafia game once where Cloud was looking for Sephiroth and vice versa. Since the scum are far more likely to lie, it's more likely that a soft claim would hurt the town in that scenario.
EBWODP: And the fact that Ged is being so strict about quoting our character quote or linking our character link suggests that he has not provided false claims. Why would he be concerned about making it difficult for scum to false claim, if he had provided false claims?
It's part and parcel of not quoting PMs. You don't want a minor quibble over terminology to clear or damn someone - you want those decisions made as a result of gameplay. Making a point of saying not to quote the links reinforces this.
I believe the soft claim may be a lot more illuminating then a normal soft claim. Why do I believe this? The game set up.
1) Why would any gamer, worth there fanboy salt, need wikipedia for most superheroes?
2) Why is it that "false claiming will be hard enough as it is"?
Both these statements make me think that maybe we're going towards lesser known heroes? Like Thundarr, or the Wonder Twins. But number two bothers me a lot. It has been well pointed out that a false soft claim would be easy to back up, unless some major flavor issues arise later.
Normally I would be against what I perceive as a very weak tell, with this soft claim, but as I stated above I think the soft claim might be very helpful as the game progresses.
This could be a dangerous assumption. If the first couple superheroes you see are minor ones, are you then going to lynch someone who claims a major one? Our dead bodies are all significant heroes - they've all been in a major film adaptation of the source material, for one thing. Do you really think that the mod killed off the only three major figures in pre-game?
DC/Male/R - My rolename should be obvious by now, I think.
Was a decision made about this that I missed? I thought we were still discussing DC/Marvel/Other. Why did you come out with this?
Also, according to this page you've narrowed it down to one of 31 people. The fact that you think it's obvious probably means Robin, but Rorschach or the Red Tornado are other possibles. The question above still stands, though - why did you come out with this now?
On further reflection I think the Marvel/DC/Other claim is more likely to help than hurt, so I'd be in favour of it. I recommend that anyone who has not yet done so check wikipedia to be sure of the publisher of your source material. I don't think we should be claiming anything beyond that yet, though - certainly not today, likely not on later days.
Also, on the topic of claiming single letters: how is it determined? Are we using real names, or titles? If titles, how would someone like The Incredible Hulk be shown?
First, the word "the" should be entirely taken out of the claim. Second, it should go by what the role PM says as the first letter. So if it says, "Incredible Hulk" as opposed to "Hulk," claim 'I' as the first letter.
I'm virtually always opposed to any kind of massclaim(Rurouni Kenshin is the only exception I can think of, and the circumstances in that game were...remarkable).
I'm particularly unimpressed by the argument that CC made where he said that lots of times people realized, in hindsight, that some kind of massclaim would have helped alot. Even if this has happened a few times, there are far more circumstances were this type of action would have doomed the town instead.
I also feel that DYH backpedaled on his vote against Loran pretty quickly. I don't think there was reason for it in the first place, but, I thought it was out of character.
I also think he is misrepresenting me somewhat. Sometimes I come out the door gunning, sometimes I don't. The random phase in this game felt like it went on longer than normal.
Oh look, now you suddenly have lots to talk about and it's an attempt to discredit me - your attacker. Yes, the only times you don't come out the door gunning is when you're scum. I'd actually invite you to go find instances where you're town and you've lurked about day one, please.
Quote from Cyan »
I don't really get the references to Prehistoric.
See the link above; it might refresh your memory.
Quote from Cubus »
Why I think DYH and loran are scum partners:
DYH voted loran over something little (though actually a pretty good reason, I'd say), then discussed some, then unvoted far too quickly. From that point on, loran's been defending DYH multiple times, and DYH has to immediately compare his play here to his 'normal scum play', which indicates that he's aware of what he did in the past as scum, and it looks like he decided to try another approach here. There's also a lot of useless 'quoting each other'. Yeah, I think I caught something here.
DYH's connecting to GR's also telling. My vote stays right where it is.
Excuse me - where did I compare my play here to my normal scum play? I'm quite certain *I* didn't do that. The only reference I recall making to my scum play at all was explaining the bussing of Ged in HP because you mis-explained how that scenario went down (re: daytalk). You may have me confused with Loran on that quote - he's the one who referenced how the argument here would have continued on for pages and then he'd have ended up lynched if we were scum buddies, IIRC.
No, what I have done multiple times, however, is reference how this mirrors my normal town play - a complete opposite to the mindset you've described above.
If Loran is scum, I'll be shocked- he usually folds under pressure like a house of cards, and he stood his ground this time.
As for linking to GR, I've explained that already - he gave the better, more concise explanation.
Almost as if you felt safe and secure in giving out that information? Yeah, you're scum, with a mod-provided falseclaim and you're casually fishing for info under the guise of a pro-town tactic. Vote stands.
By your own admission, it's a pro-town tactic. Yet you seemed to be of the opinion it'll benefit the scums more?
Using the logic that townies wont lie, and scum will reveal only info from their "disguise" what can we learn?
The scum would have a little bit on everyone that isn't scum. Like you said there are a multiple possibites however we would be narrowing everyone to a letter or whatever is decided, however it is just info the scum would gather. Maybe something later for them to use but who knows for sure.
The town gets this same info WITH the additive bonus of knowing that some of this info being fed to them are lies made from the scum. It could cause the focus of the town onto things that are wasted. Everyone would be "locked" into a claim but with the scum having false claims it dosen't matter.
What would the scum get with the info? Anything given to them as they would have nothing to lose/give up for it.
The scums would have nothing, as would the town, if the situation that no information could be gained from the claims holds true.
If we are dealing with the reverse in that the scums could gain something, then most probably the very best they could do would be to narrow down the role names of the town. Then, how best to use that info? Pick out the power roles? That is vague at best unless you subscribe to the theory certain role names are more partial to power roles. So, in essence what do they gain? Nothing significant.
But then you are making the assumption the scums would lie and/or they are given false claims. If the town could deduce certain role names as scummy and the scums soft claims their role names truthfully, they are screwed. And if they soft claims falsely because they thought their role names are scummy, they run the risk of counter claims. If you are using the arguments that scums could modify their claims, what if they were forced to claim first by circumstances ? Or if they are given false claims by the mod, what's to say each of them would be given one or that they were only given a few like Berserk or Harry Potter?
In summary, while the benefits at first glance are negligible, it could potentially proved to be the key in digging out scums. If not, so be it. I for one would be interested to see how the scums could even utilize the soft claims.
Also, on the topic of claiming single letters: how is it determined? Are we using real names, or titles? If titles, how would someone like The Incredible Hulk be shown?
How about role names, you know, the one in your PM?
I loled at Cubus' vote. Seriously man, DYH's standard argument with a scum partner lasts at least a few more posts, involves a much more heated argument, and the person he argues with is in fact his SCUM PARTNER.
I'll QFT the first two points. The last point is more of Loran's opinion.
It has nothing to do with defending AH or a preemptive defense or what have you. I don't think people were even attacking AH. Nobody understood what he was saying. I understood, and it actually was a valid point to make. By clearing it up, I made it so people understood what he was saying and also showed my agreement with it.
DYH voted loran over something little (though actually a pretty good reason, I'd say), then discussed some, then unvoted far too quickly. From that point on, loran's been defending DYH multiple times, and DYH has to immediately compare his play here to his 'normal scum play', which indicates that he's aware of what he did in the past as scum, and it looks like he decided to try another approach here. There's also a lot of useless 'quoting each other'. Yeah, I think I caught something here.
DYH's connecting to GR's also telling. My vote stays right where it is.
I have read the behavioral rationale for your vote and I'm not convinced it's an indication of their alignments.
How about role names, you know, the one in your PM?
I kibitzed a game back on 'Tings where people were inconsistent about this - different people claimed either hero name or secret identity. I thought it was best to have it publicly stated.
I have read the behavioral rationale for your vote and I'm not convinced it's an indication of their alignments.
I'm not convinced either, but if either of them turns out to be scum later in the game, this fight will make me more suspicious of the other, not less.
I like where you ignore the part where I explain why I haven't posted much. Nice argument. The bit that you quoted is irrelevant. I hate the random voting stage, and it lasted awhile in this game. That's it.
Oh look, now you suddenly have lots to talk about and it's an attempt to discredit me - your attacker. Yes, the only times you don't come out the door gunning is when you're scum. I'd actually invite you to go find instances where you're town and you've lurked about day one, please.
It was a minor suspicion. I know how to play with you, DYH. Have you EVER seen my point out what I thought was a minor tell on your part? I don't think so. In other games where I thought you did something scummy, did I point it out early? No, I did not. I let you go on for sometime, sometimes even days, before bringing things up. Why would this game be any different? *Especially* since it's early in the game. And I know you're trying to put an OMGUS angle on this, but that's pretty obviously not it. I didn't attack you for attacking me, nor did I attack your points against me. I pointed out something completely unrelated(which you have, of course, conveniently elected not to respond to). But we're into it now, so that's that.
As for games where I was town and didn't post alot early. Doomsday Mafia. Midian Mafia. Some other game that happened around the same time as Midian but I can't remember the name of now. Just more examples of games where the random voting phase lasted awhile, like this one. Here's some other examples: Greenwood Affair. FF7. Games where the random voting phase didn't last long, and I didn't lurk.
So sure, there's a connection. I barely post during the random voting phase. This is no secret; the random voting period is absolutely useless. But the 'connection' that you're trying to make(based on ONE example..nice case) is non-existant. Just like the LAST time you thought you'd found a 'scumtell' against me. Remember that one? You were wrong then, too.
Speaking of scumtells, you're evidencing some of your own here. You are *much* more aggressive in the early game as scum than as town. *And* you have a tendency to barn people significantly more. Just like you're doing here with GR. And the way you're playing up your involvement in me getting lynched in Prehistoric. Pretty interesting, that bit, considering in posts FROM that game, you downplayed your involvement and deferred it to Andelijah.
So yeah..one of us is acting scummy, in the same way(s) that he always does. But it's not me. Vote DYH
@Ced: It's pretty simple. In that game, people started acting scummy early, so I called them on it early. There wasn't much 'conviction' in that post because it was a minor point of suspicion.
DYH voted loran over something little (though actually a pretty good reason, I'd say), then discussed some, then unvoted far too quickly. From that point on, loran's been defending DYH multiple times, and DYH has to immediately compare his play here to his 'normal scum play', which indicates that he's aware of what he did in the past as scum, and it looks like he decided to try another approach here. There's also a lot of useless 'quoting each other'. Yeah, I think I caught something here.
DYH's connecting to GR's also telling. My vote stays right where it is.
Your point started off strong but completely falls apart for me. I don't see how DYH and Loran going back and forth indicates that they are scumbuddies - its not like they were lobbing softballs to each other.
On a related note, I believe Cyan and DYH are about to get into a pissing contest...
I'm getting a little less sure on this claim idea.
Question: Has anyone else got similar flavor in their PM which might be linked to mod-provided falseclaims? It would help me understand the significance of the hint I appear to have.
I don't have anything similar in mine. I also take Ged's..."warning", I guess, at face value - that false claiming is always a risky thing to do, and that it doesn't say anything either for or against mod provided claims.
I'm liking DYH's Cyan case. I noticed a couple of other things, too:
I've only played one game with Cyan (Foriys clan contest mafia, he was town), and I remember him being really aggressive, attacking a pretty innocuous comment almost straight from the off (which ended in a day one, 3-4 page mislynch: Cyan and newbs don't mix).
My only memorable experience with Cyan was when he had a paranoid investigation on me, so I can't really reference any past games with him for objective information. But...
In addition, I get this really wierd tone from his two most recent posts. In the first one, for example, he makes a few statements of suspicion, but there's no real conviction behind them, IMO.
So, Vote Cyan
I definitely agree with the "weird" vibe from his posts - its hard to pin down, almost like he just woke up and didn't have coffee or anything. His most recent post (just before this as I am typing) seems much more like his style.
I still think that the mass soft-claim is a bad idea, but I'll participate if a large majority thinks we should.
Other than that, I still haven't seen much that's suspicion worthy out there, although I will admit to being confused about this whole "mod provided false claims" idea... could someone give some more info on this please?
In some games, the mod provides the Mafia members with a safe false claim - a claim that the scum know can't be counterclaimed because it isn't actually held by a player in the game. Ced's flavor seemed to indicate that the mafia might have safe false claims, which would make the entire soft claim process meaningless.
I like where you ignore the part where I explain why I haven't posted much. Nice argument. The bit that you quoted is irrelevant. I hate the random voting stage, and it lasted awhile in this game. That's it.
You didn't post much because you said "There hasn't been much to talk about". That's in the damn quote. It's the same excuse you gave here.
Quote from Cyan »
It was a minor suspicion. I know how to play with you, DYH. Have you EVER seen my point out what I thought was a minor tell on your part? I don't think so. In other games where I thought you did something scummy, did I point it out early? No, I did not. I let you go on for sometime, sometimes even days, before bringing things up. Why would this game be any different? *Especially* since it's early in the game. And I know you're trying to put an OMGUS angle on this, but that's pretty obviously not it. I didn't attack you for attacking me, nor did I attack your points against me. I pointed out something completely unrelated(which you have, of course, conveniently elected not to respond to). But we're into it now, so that's that.
Uh, no. You tried to discredit my attack as I pointed out, and now you're going to turn around and vote me on BS premises as I'll point out. Yeah, it's OMGUS - you have no case.
Quote from Cyan »
As for games where I was town and didn't post alot early. Doomsday Mafia. Midian Mafia. Some other game that happened around the same time as Midian but I can't remember the name of now. Just more examples of games where the random voting phase lasted awhile, like this one. Here's some other examples: Greenwood Affair. FF7. Games where the random voting phase didn't last long, and I didn't lurk.
Midian Mafia had 321 total posts. You were the highest poster of the game. Hell, that's 5 pages back in the main forum; I don't remember much other than we ran away with it with two of us never having to claim anything (getting back to the value of soft-claims and all). As far as Doomsday is concerned, you had twenty-five posts in the first three real-life days. Here you had three, all one-liners, all pointless. That example is not an example at all.
Quote from Cyan »
So sure, there's a connection. I barely post during the random voting phase. This is no secret; the random voting period is absolutely useless. But the 'connection' that you're trying to make(based on ONE example..nice case) is non-existant. Just like the LAST time you thought you'd found a 'scumtell' against me. Remember that one? You were wrong then, too.
The random phase had been over for quite some time while you sat idly around doing nothing until I called you out for it.
And, ah yes, more attempts to discredit me. That was a weak tell that I was relying on to improve the case in order to explain away the lack of kills. I've eaten my crow on that; I was also mistaken, you had used it in town context - hence the reason I've invited you to prove me wrong here. Which you have not done. At all.
Quote from Cyan »
Speaking of scumtells, you're evidencing some of your own here. You are *much* more aggressive in the early game as scum than as town. *And* you have a tendency to barn people significantly more. Just like you're doing here with GR. And the way you're playing up your involvement in me getting lynched in Prehistoric. Pretty interesting, that bit, considering in posts FROM that game, you downplayed your involvement and deferred it to Andelijah.
So yeah..one of us is acting scummy, in the same way(s) that he always does. But it's not me. Vote DYH
Here we go.
I'm aggressive all the time, Cyan. Go find me some townie games where I wasn't, please. I beg you. Oh wait - you've quantified it with "much more" with stars and stuff to make it look important so you can't solidly prove a difference. Convenient.
Andelijah started the case on you in Prehistoric - I joined as a replacement and basically nailed you for the same exact behavior. You could even say I barned Andelijah in my intial posts. I was town. So wrong on that count.
The situation with GR here is that he explained the soft-claim better than I. You'll notice, however, that I made my position known; I was not barning him - we said the same thing, he just did it better. Wrong again.
You are so obviously scum it hurts. You tried to hide away until the storm blew over with the soft-claims and could find an easy target; unluckily for you, I shot your cover.
I am predicting this battle will be much more epic than DYH and Loran, and thus, DYH and Cyan are probably scum buddies because, as said above, more posts, and a more heated argument = fight with scumbuddy.
It's so interesting when you have the player of 2007 vs. the player of 2008, and probably could be a really enlightening experience...I just hope this serves as more than a massive thread de-rail; at this moment, I really don't know who I like better because they both seem to have good points and DYH has been as vocal as Cyan has been quiet thus far.
I am predicting this battle will be much more epic than DYH and Loran, and thus, DYH and Cyan are probably scum buddies because, as said above, more posts, and a more heated argument = fight with scumbuddy.
It's so interesting when you have the player of 2007 vs. the player of 2008, and probably could be a really enlightening experience...I just hope this serves as more than a massive thread de-rail; at this moment, I really don't know who I like better because they both seem to have good points and DYH has been as vocal as Cyan has been quiet thus far.
So, what points do you think are good of Cyan's exactly?
What points of mine, specifically, do you think are good?
So, what points do you think are good of Cyan's exactly?
Obviously the conflict between you 2 has yet to even come close to a resolution, but I don't think he would flat-out lie about your behavior in other games. This doesn't mean I am siding with him (you have raised points that these scumtells he speaks of and such are way off point) but I am most interested to see his response to your last post where you refute his accusations.
What points of mine, specifically, do you think are good?
Obviously, its drinking time. Or at least not "I'm going to be able to rationally post in a mafia game." I'll see y'all tomorrow if i'm over this. Probably not.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
You didn't post much because you said "There hasn't been much to talk about". That's in the damn quote. It's the same excuse you gave here.
I also said that I'm feeling humbled at the moment, which should be apparent for obvious reasons. *And* there hasn't been much to talk about? And you're reaching ridiculously anyway.
Uh, no. You tried to discredit my attack as I pointed out, and now you're going to turn around and vote me on BS premises as I'll point out. Yeah, it's OMGUS - you have no case.
Tried to discredit your attack? Initially, no, I defended myself and pointed out a minor suspicion on my part. No FoS, no vote, etc. Something I noticed, which you very tellingly overreacted to.
Midian Mafia had 321 total posts. You were the highest poster of the game. Hell, that's 5 pages back in the main forum; I don't remember much other than we ran away with it with two of us never having to claim anything (getting back to the value of soft-claims and all). As far as Doomsday is concerned, you had twenty-five posts in the first three real-life days. Here you had three, all one-liners, all pointless. That example is not an example at all.
Yes, I was the highest post count in Midian at the END of the game. But we're not talking about throughout a game here, we're talking about the beginning. At the beginning of Midian, I had little to say, because, shockingly, there was nothing to talk about. As far as Doomsday, 25 posts is not much for me, not in 3 days time. I didn't post at all, really, during the random phase of that game. Just like this one.
Also, I like how you ignore the parts where I provide counterexamples. Just hoping it'll go away?
The random phase had been over for quite some time while you sat idly around doing nothing until I called you out for it.
The random phase really hadn't been 'over' for that long, and I disagree that there was anything really worth talking about.
And, ah yes, more attempts to discredit me. That was a weak tell that I was relying on to improve the case in order to explain away the lack of kills. I've eaten my crow on that; I was also mistaken, you had used it in town context - hence the reason I've invited you to prove me wrong here. Which you have not done. At all.
Obviously it's an attempt to discredit you, you are using *bad examples*, and I'm explaining why they're bad. Shocking concept, I know.
And apparently you didn't 'eat crow'. Or not enough. Here we are having the same conversation AGAIN. But it's alright. I'll go back and find more examples of me not posting alot, in the early game, when I was town.
I'm aggressive all the time, Cyan. Go find me some townie games where I wasn't, please. I beg you. Oh wait - you've quantified it with "much more" with stars and stuff to make it look important so you can't solidly prove a difference. Convenient.
Hats Mafia. DotA. Those are two that immediately come to mind, without even really having to think about it. And before you bother with this one; yes they were awhile ago. Irrelevant. You get scum roles alot. You know, like now.
Andelijah started the case on you in Prehistoric - I joined as a replacement and basically nailed you for the same exact behavior. You could even say I barned Andelijah in my intial posts. I was town. So wrong on that count.
You did pretty much nothing to 'nail me'(Try to remember that I took the main person attacking me down with me, and manueved my other scumbuddy into winning anyway, despite losing 2 mafia in the first 3 days). Andelijah did all of the work, and you were happy to credit it all to him in THAT game thread(anyone can go look, it's easy to find). Now you're trying to make it look like you actually had to do something. Just like you're doing with GR here. Just like you've done in OTHER games where you were scum, like TFC, and Greenwood.
You are so obviously scum it hurts. You tried to hide away until the storm blew over with the soft-claims and could find an easy target; unluckily for you, I shot your cover.
I don't really get what you're trying to say here..find an easy target?
Hmm. I looked for some more games where I wasn't very active initially as town, but I couldn't find any really. And CP is right, I was more active early in Doomsday than I remembered.
So, you got me. I didn't post alot at the beginning of this game. Around post 150, people were STILL talking about Superbad, and there really was no important conversation going on. Then in the span of less than a day where I didn't bother to check the thread, the amount of posts doubled. Your accusation of me lurking here is simply off-base. And, as I have already said, I'm not feeling particularly confident in my mafia ability at this moment.
I'll also note, DYH, that in the post where you initially vote me, you plainly state that you're only doing it to get me posting. But really, I think you're just using it as a smokescreen to cover the fact that you were trying to bail out of discussing the soft-claim anymore. You never 'move on' from your arguments as town. I think you just felt overexposed; and didn't want to argue further. You did the same thing with Loran. Like I said already, you are simply not aggressive, not early game at least, as town. But you are as scum, like in the games I already stated.
I'm not sure how to feel about this Cyan v. DYH battle. I think there are decent points from both sides.
The point about DYH tying himself to me is good. I remember him doing something very similar with my case on JodoYodo in HP mafia, where he was scum, which is why I brought it up as suspicious in the first place. It didn't seem natural for him to keep bringing me up, and I felt that he was either
1. Trying to make the soft claim seem to be a more valid concept simply by nature of having more people in favor of it, essentially a fallacious argument.
OR
2. Trying to lessen his own role or importance in soft claiming in case the idea failed. Almost like preemptively pinning me to him so he doesn't take the fall. Cyan's point about overexposure fits in this classification.
On the other hand, the point about Cyan lurking is also valid. I seem to remember Cyan playing more in the background in Warhammer Mafia, where he was scum. I don't recall him dominating discussion as he is generally prone to do. I'm also a little surprised that he admits the case on him is valid, but I'm not sure how that relates to his alignment.
I don't see the point. There are enough superheros out there that claiming one of these three doesn't interfere with the ability of the scum to fake-claim, but it does give information out to those who know more about the setup (that is, the mafia).
Here's a followup, that I've run around a couple times in my head. I'm not actually recommending it right now, but I do want some discussion. How about we just claim our names right now? No abilities, but we claim Batman, or John Constantine, or whatever. It'll likely expose some power roles, but depending on how the scum are set up it might also catch us some bad guys.
On further reflection I think the Marvel/DC/Other claim is more likely to help than hurt, so I'd be in favour of it. I recommend that anyone who has not yet done so check wikipedia to be sure of the publisher of your source material. I don't think we should be claiming anything beyond that yet, though - certainly not today, likely not on later days.
I thought I had caught you in an inconsistency here, but I see you do say "I'm not actually recommending it right now" in regards to a full name claim. So you suggested the idea of a name claim, however, now you don't want to do anything beyond a Marvel/DC/Other claim.
If anything, this DYH vs. Cyan argument tells me that it's unlikely that they are scumbuddies. That still leaves: both town, 1 town/1 scum or independent, 1 scum/1 independent, or possibly even both independent. (independent meaning roles like SK, neutral survivor, etc.)
The game seems too small for "both independent", so strike that.
Cyan does tend, as town, to find someone early day 1 and latch onto them like a bulldog. He hasn't done that yet, so I think the "both town" can be eliminated.
And though I don't like DYH because he's the leading promoter of the day 1 partial claim movement, which I feel just isn't going to help the town as much as he seems to think it will (or possibly help the mafia more... either way, I still think it's not a wise choice), his reasoning behind the Cyan case is solid enough to move my vote.
Unvote, Vote Cyan - Moderator?, can we have a vote count please?
TMT watches the ongoing debates with interest. Cyan's initial reaction to DYH's accusation seemed rather tame for him. His next few posts became more like the typically aggressive Cyan, only to return to a very submissive tone. TMT cross-references the data with his files, and finds that Cyan's behavior does indeed differ from what he has exhibited as town.
If I remember correctly, I have played with Cyan in FF7 and in Prehistoric, Both of which he was scum/sephiroth. In Prehistoric he was less agressive as he was in FF7. In fact I remember him and DC, as someone put it, Bulldoged me the first day. However in Prehistoric DYH replaced in and nabbed Cyan on the spot, to which Cyan was upset with players replacing in because of his plan (With Jqlgirl no doubt.).
However this statement:
Quote from Cyan »
Hmm. I looked for some more games where I wasn't very active initially as town, but I couldn't find any really. And CP is right, I was more active early in Doomsday than I remembered.
So, you got me.
To me this sounds like an admission of guilt.
VOTE CYAN
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I thought I had caught you in an inconsistency here, but I see you do say "I'm not actually recommending it right now" in regards to a full name claim. So you suggested the idea of a name claim, however, now you don't want to do anything beyond a Marvel/DC/Other claim.
What discussion changed your mind?
I never wanted a full claim on Day 1, but I did want it discussed to get reactions. If I came out and said "we shouldn't do this", though, I didn't think the discussions would be as useful.
I don't see how you can read this as a scum tell unless you think that Cyan was actually giving up and accepting a lynching. "you got me" isn't actually that damning. If you actually believe he's scum, you should be able to find something else to support that. If you can't find anything else, that's probably a sign that you shouldn't be voting for him.
I don't see how you can read this as a scum tell unless you think that Cyan was actually giving up and accepting a lynching. "you got me" isn't actually that damning. If you actually believe he's scum, you should be able to find something else to support that. If you can't find anything else, that's probably a sign that you shouldn't be voting for him.
You are correct. In that tiny blib, I took it as Cyan saying "You are right, I got nothing, you got me".
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Ther first part is a premature smear at both of them, curiously without a vote.
The second part feels like meaningless waffle and fence-sitting.
I guess you didn't read the part where I talked about "good points" I felt they both had. For 2 of the best players to have what, at this time, seem to be legitimate tells for the other, I don't doubt the possibility of a scumbuddy war.
I want to go read some other games and try to see for myself what's going on here because a problem I have at the moment is how scum-ridden the Cyan wagon seems to be:
Quote from ~ »
Cyan does tend, as town, to find someone early day 1 and latch onto them like a bulldog. He hasn't done that yet, so I think the "both town" can be eliminated.
That reason, and that reason alone makes you feel he isn't town?
Quote from Roja »
However this statement:
To me this sounds like an admission of guilt.
VOTE CYAN
You had to take it that far out of context to place a vote on Cyan?
I'm not sure how to feel about this Cyan v. DYH battle. I think there are decent points from both sides.
The point about DYH tying himself to me is good. I remember him doing something very similar with my case on JodoYodo in HP mafia, where he was scum, which is why I brought it up as suspicious in the first place. It didn't seem natural for him to keep bringing me up, and I felt that he was either
1. Trying to make the soft claim seem to be a more valid concept simply by nature of having more people in favor of it, essentially a fallacious argument.
OR
2. Trying to lessen his own role or importance in soft claiming in case the idea failed. Almost like preemptively pinning me to him so he doesn't take the fall. Cyan's point about overexposure fits in this classification.
On the other hand, the point about Cyan lurking is also valid. I seem to remember Cyan playing more in the background in Warhammer Mafia, where he was scum. I don't recall him dominating discussion as he is generally prone to do. I'm also a little surprised that he admits the case on him is valid, but I'm not sure how that relates to his alignment.
Just so we're clear, I'm still in full-support of the soft-claim. I've said as much multiple times, and indicated that I'm not changing my mind unless someone can show me how it's going to hurt. I don't think there's any way I could "lessen my role" in this - I've got about 20 posts on that issue alone today, I believe. As I stated to Cyan, my arguments for the soft-claim are there - I just felt you did a better job with the explanation as to why it's beneficial.
As for Cyan admitting my case is valid, he can't argue the point I made against him because I'm right. He's finally said as much. The question you need to ask yourself now is: Is this how scum Cyan plays?
Cyan's whole advantage as a town player is that he's very polarizing - he gets in people's faces, he antagonizes them to the point of utter frustration sometimes, but what it does is draw massive reactions. If he's not out doing that, he's not playing his town game. It's really quite simple.
More than just that, though, is the subject he was specifically avoiding - one he's tried to turn back on me. Soft-claims. Rather than have to commit an opinion on the subject, I imagine he was hoping it would blow over quickly enough he wouldn't have to cement himself into a position. When he was called out for it, he made a pretty general "I don't like soft-claims".
Have you ever seen town Cyan be so passive about a hot topic? I haven't.
I never wanted a full claim on Day 1, but I did want it discussed to get reactions. If I came out and said "we shouldn't do this", though, I didn't think the discussions would be as useful.
I don't see how you can read this as a scum tell unless you think that Cyan was actually giving up and accepting a lynching. "you got me" isn't actually that damning. If you actually believe he's scum, you should be able to find something else to support that. If you can't find anything else, that's probably a sign that you shouldn't be voting for him.
I'd like to know exactly how you feel about Cyan before you go telling Roja how he should think, frankly. You haven't commented on this situation that I can recall?
Back to Cyan:
Quote from Cyan »
Hats Mafia. DotA. Those are two that immediately come to mind, without even really having to think about it. And before you bother with this one; yes they were awhile ago. Irrelevant. You get scum roles alot. You know, like now.
Hats Mafia and DotA were awhile ago, but I remember quite a bit about them. In Hats, Azrael had contacted me N0 and we spent the large majority of the day talking about his master plan - a claim gambit, no less - which I supported. Then there's the major flaw in this argument - Tilde ended day one in three real-life days. I had already started arguing with Loran's gimmick, though.
DotA - Fayul made a suggestion for the town RBer to come out D1 after a kill-less N0 - which I supported and defended vehemently in the face of what was ultimately scum-backed opposition (sutherlands + Axelrod, IIRC). I spent much of day one defending myself for defending fayul. I think I had to claim, if memory serves me correct. I was aggressive in reverse, there (not to mention right).
Quote from Some One »
That reason, and that reason alone makes you feel he isn't town?
What exactly do you think my case is predicated on? You know, the one with the good points you referenced? It's based on Cyan not playing like Cyan, which is exactly what ~ is getting at.
What exactly do you think my case is predicated on? You know, the one with the good points you referenced? It's based on Cyan not playing like Cyan, which is exactly what ~ is getting at.
I'd like to know exactly how you feel about Cyan before you go telling Roja how he should think, frankly. You haven't commented on this situation that I can recall?
No, I haven't. While Cyan has, to my recollection, been in every one of my games so far on this site, I still can't read him properly. He always looks scummy to me - I've so far thought he was scum while townie, SK, and mafia. The fact that I'm not getting a scum read off him this game, then, says that he's off, but not in what way. Since a lot of the argument against him seemed to be based off his play history from before I arrived, I thought I'd wait to see how that played out before chiming in.
To make it clear if it wasn't from above: I have not been convinced that Cyan is scum this game. I'm willing to leave him alone on the assumption that Cyan will be Cyan later, and we'll hopefully be able to get leads or not based on his later play. I don't have much of an opinion on you either, aside from a bit of a negative vibe from when you and loran each responded to a suggestion that you were scumbuddies with "can't be, I'm not scum." That isn't terribly useful as opinions, I know, but it's what I've got for now.
Vote: Cyan
He has yet to weigh in on the soft-claim discussion, or anything relevant for that matter - and we know that isn't Cyan's town style. I want him in here and I want him talking.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I gotta disagree with this (it being a scum tell, not the part about wanting him talking :-P)....it's not cyan's scum style either. Which makes it a null tell really.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Did you read Prehistoric Mafia?
Look, it's not a perfect tell by any means, but it's certainly not his normal Cyan gung-ho townie style. I want to know why he's avoiding the thread; he's posted elsewhere since this all started.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Surprisingly no, no i haven't. but i've read so many other scum Cyan games that I still disagree about it being a tell.
oh of course: GTHC, GTH (ES!)
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Yes, it's far too early to make an overall lurking accusation against him, but I've already addressed what I want to hear from him. And yes, it's not just the lurking, but the utter lack of content in his posts in Prehistoric that twinged Andelijah first and me, too, upon entering the game.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I haven't seen much to talk about so far. I'm opposed to the softclaim. I'm virtually always opposed to any kind of massclaim(Rurouni Kenshin is the only exception I can think of, and the circumstances in that game were...remarkable).
I'm particularly unimpressed by the argument that CC made where he said that lots of times people realized, in hindsight, that some kind of massclaim would have helped alot. Even if this has happened a few times, there are far more circumstances were this type of action would have doomed the town instead.
I also feel that DYH backpedaled on his vote against Loran pretty quickly. I don't think there was reason for it in the first place, but, I thought it was out of character.
I also think he is misrepresenting me somewhat. Sometimes I come out the door gunning, sometimes I don't. The random phase in this game felt like it went on longer than normal.
I don't really get the references to Prehistoric.
I can't talk about ongoing games, but there's a very recent example that people can read over in BR Mafia.
Cold War, the scum had a list of potential rolenames, so we pushed a Shaman style soft claim which blew up in my face when DYH had info that the "Commander" was scum, and I was quickly lynched. We as scum hardly actually gained anything from it.
The Shaman role(mafia with a list of the town's rolenames) is one that's showed up all of twice(as far as I know) and this set-up isn't ripe for such a role. It only shows up when players have generic titles for rolenames. (Peacekeeper, Sailor, etc.)
So without that, how could a soft claim hurt us?
[The Family]
It has nothing to do with defending AH or a preemptive defense or what have you. I don't think people were even attacking AH. Nobody understood what he was saying. I understood, and it actually was a valid point to make. By clearing it up, I made it so people understood what he was saying and also showed my agreement with it.
I'm suspicious of this. Despite my agreement, why do you feel the need to toss my hat in the ring whenever you defend the soft-claim idea?
I'm not saying that it never could have been beneficial. Obviously there are games where it would have been. I'm saying that making an argument based on something people realized in hindsight is a logical fallacy. If it came up more often than not that such a claim would have greatly benefited the town, that would be one thing. But that simply is not the case. It comes up every once inawhile, sure. In games that were probably poorly designed to begin with. I prefer not to start a game on the premise that the design is flawed in a way that a mass information dump will actually benefit the town.
Record: 3-2
Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
Doomsday Mafia - Mafia Roleblocker - Win
Battle Royale Mafia - Serial Daykiller - Loss
Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
If a soft claim would be beneficial to the town in 3% of games, and harmful in 0% of games, is it not more likely to be beneficial here, in spite of how little it would help?
And the set-up is ripe for it, in spite of the large number of possible false claims. Nearly any themed game can be benefited from this, even if it doesn't outright catch scum, it can help.
If the possibility that it can help is greater then the possibility that it could hurt, why not go ahead?
The point of my earlier arguement(RE BR Mafia) was to combat the idea that the set-up is not ripe for a mass soft claim. My point is - we don't know the set-up. We do it because the way games are normally desinged on this site has shown that forcing the scum into their false claims early can easily be beneficial, and very rarely has it ever been harmful. It's the nature of the game.
Saying it's useless when you can't possibly know that(unless you're scum, of course) is not a reason not to do it.
[The Family]
[The Family]
Unvote, Vote: Cyan
I doubt he would provide entire alternate role pm's for the scum - just names if anything.
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Perhaps he forgot to give the scum fake quotes and links for their fake claims? I forgot to give the scum in aSoIaF a part of everyone's rolenames for their pre-given false claims and had to restrict claims to make it fair.
Course you are right that Ged's restriction does make it pretty likely that the scum's real rolenames are in fact scummy-sounding.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
However. They will reveal information on flavor. Which has every relevance for the silly games the flavorful roles play. I'm not interested in enabling that.
No. Opposite in fact. Burden of proof is on you. Show how they'll help. Other than this limiting nonsense. It is true, but not sufficient or even useful. Is this the first time you've ended an argument by ignoring it this game?
@AH: No, it's not. I did it with Loran, too. In both cases, the argument is exhausted; I have nothing else to add. As far as showing how it helps, I've already pointed to two games where it did, and presented my idea why it helps overall.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
1) Why would any gamer, worth there fanboy salt, need wikipedia for most superheroes?
2) Why is it that "false claiming will be hard enough as it is"?
Both these statements make me think that maybe we're going towards lesser known heroes? Like Thundarr, or the Wonder Twins. But number two bothers me a lot. It has been well pointed out that a false soft claim would be easy to back up, unless some major flavor issues arise later.
Normally I would be against what I perceive as a very weak tell, with this soft claim, but as I stated above I think the soft claim might be very helpful as the game progresses.
12-11? I'm losing track
When I was reading it appeared to me that your comment was overlooked by others. I wanted to mention it as I found it to be important factor to consider.
A Seeker role could push this for their own purposes - I was in a FFVII mafia game once where Cloud was looking for Sephiroth and vice versa. Since the scum are far more likely to lie, it's more likely that a soft claim would hurt the town in that scenario.
It's part and parcel of not quoting PMs. You don't want a minor quibble over terminology to clear or damn someone - you want those decisions made as a result of gameplay. Making a point of saying not to quote the links reinforces this.
This could be a dangerous assumption. If the first couple superheroes you see are minor ones, are you then going to lynch someone who claims a major one? Our dead bodies are all significant heroes - they've all been in a major film adaptation of the source material, for one thing. Do you really think that the mod killed off the only three major figures in pre-game?
Was a decision made about this that I missed? I thought we were still discussing DC/Marvel/Other. Why did you come out with this?
Also, according to this page you've narrowed it down to one of 31 people. The fact that you think it's obvious probably means Robin, but Rorschach or the Red Tornado are other possibles. The question above still stands, though - why did you come out with this now?
On further reflection I think the Marvel/DC/Other claim is more likely to help than hurt, so I'd be in favour of it. I recommend that anyone who has not yet done so check wikipedia to be sure of the publisher of your source material. I don't think we should be claiming anything beyond that yet, though - certainly not today, likely not on later days.
First, the word "the" should be entirely taken out of the claim. Second, it should go by what the role PM says as the first letter. So if it says, "Incredible Hulk" as opposed to "Hulk," claim 'I' as the first letter.
Where have I seen this before?
Oh look, now you suddenly have lots to talk about and it's an attempt to discredit me - your attacker. Yes, the only times you don't come out the door gunning is when you're scum. I'd actually invite you to go find instances where you're town and you've lurked about day one, please.
See the link above; it might refresh your memory.
Excuse me - where did I compare my play here to my normal scum play? I'm quite certain *I* didn't do that. The only reference I recall making to my scum play at all was explaining the bussing of Ged in HP because you mis-explained how that scenario went down (re: daytalk). You may have me confused with Loran on that quote - he's the one who referenced how the argument here would have continued on for pages and then he'd have ended up lynched if we were scum buddies, IIRC.
No, what I have done multiple times, however, is reference how this mirrors my normal town play - a complete opposite to the mindset you've described above.
If Loran is scum, I'll be shocked- he usually folds under pressure like a house of cards, and he stood his ground this time.
As for linking to GR, I've explained that already - he gave the better, more concise explanation.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
By your own admission, it's a pro-town tactic. Yet you seemed to be of the opinion it'll benefit the scums more?
The scums would have nothing, as would the town, if the situation that no information could be gained from the claims holds true.
If we are dealing with the reverse in that the scums could gain something, then most probably the very best they could do would be to narrow down the role names of the town. Then, how best to use that info? Pick out the power roles? That is vague at best unless you subscribe to the theory certain role names are more partial to power roles. So, in essence what do they gain? Nothing significant.
But then you are making the assumption the scums would lie and/or they are given false claims. If the town could deduce certain role names as scummy and the scums soft claims their role names truthfully, they are screwed. And if they soft claims falsely because they thought their role names are scummy, they run the risk of counter claims. If you are using the arguments that scums could modify their claims, what if they were forced to claim first by circumstances ? Or if they are given false claims by the mod, what's to say each of them would be given one or that they were only given a few like Berserk or Harry Potter?
In summary, while the benefits at first glance are negligible, it could potentially proved to be the key in digging out scums. If not, so be it. I for one would be interested to see how the scums could even utilize the soft claims.
How about role names, you know, the one in your PM?
I'll QFT the first two points. The last point is more of Loran's opinion.
Mmm. Okay.
I have read the behavioral rationale for your vote and I'm not convinced it's an indication of their alignments.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
I kibitzed a game back on 'Tings where people were inconsistent about this - different people claimed either hero name or secret identity. I thought it was best to have it publicly stated.
I'm not convinced either, but if either of them turns out to be scum later in the game, this fight will make me more suspicious of the other, not less.
It was a minor suspicion. I know how to play with you, DYH. Have you EVER seen my point out what I thought was a minor tell on your part? I don't think so. In other games where I thought you did something scummy, did I point it out early? No, I did not. I let you go on for sometime, sometimes even days, before bringing things up. Why would this game be any different? *Especially* since it's early in the game. And I know you're trying to put an OMGUS angle on this, but that's pretty obviously not it. I didn't attack you for attacking me, nor did I attack your points against me. I pointed out something completely unrelated(which you have, of course, conveniently elected not to respond to). But we're into it now, so that's that.
As for games where I was town and didn't post alot early. Doomsday Mafia. Midian Mafia. Some other game that happened around the same time as Midian but I can't remember the name of now. Just more examples of games where the random voting phase lasted awhile, like this one. Here's some other examples: Greenwood Affair. FF7. Games where the random voting phase didn't last long, and I didn't lurk.
So sure, there's a connection. I barely post during the random voting phase. This is no secret; the random voting period is absolutely useless. But the 'connection' that you're trying to make(based on ONE example..nice case) is non-existant. Just like the LAST time you thought you'd found a 'scumtell' against me. Remember that one? You were wrong then, too.
Speaking of scumtells, you're evidencing some of your own here. You are *much* more aggressive in the early game as scum than as town. *And* you have a tendency to barn people significantly more. Just like you're doing here with GR. And the way you're playing up your involvement in me getting lynched in Prehistoric. Pretty interesting, that bit, considering in posts FROM that game, you downplayed your involvement and deferred it to Andelijah.
So yeah..one of us is acting scummy, in the same way(s) that he always does. But it's not me. Vote DYH
@Ced: It's pretty simple. In that game, people started acting scummy early, so I called them on it early. There wasn't much 'conviction' in that post because it was a minor point of suspicion.
Your point started off strong but completely falls apart for me. I don't see how DYH and Loran going back and forth indicates that they are scumbuddies - its not like they were lobbing softballs to each other.
On a related note, I believe Cyan and DYH are about to get into a pissing contest...
I don't have anything similar in mine. I also take Ged's..."warning", I guess, at face value - that false claiming is always a risky thing to do, and that it doesn't say anything either for or against mod provided claims.
My only memorable experience with Cyan was when he had a paranoid investigation on me, so I can't really reference any past games with him for objective information. But...
I definitely agree with the "weird" vibe from his posts - its hard to pin down, almost like he just woke up and didn't have coffee or anything. His most recent post (just before this as I am typing) seems much more like his style.
In some games, the mod provides the Mafia members with a safe false claim - a claim that the scum know can't be counterclaimed because it isn't actually held by a player in the game. Ced's flavor seemed to indicate that the mafia might have safe false claims, which would make the entire soft claim process meaningless.
You didn't post much because you said "There hasn't been much to talk about". That's in the damn quote. It's the same excuse you gave here.
Uh, no. You tried to discredit my attack as I pointed out, and now you're going to turn around and vote me on BS premises as I'll point out. Yeah, it's OMGUS - you have no case.
Midian Mafia had 321 total posts. You were the highest poster of the game. Hell, that's 5 pages back in the main forum; I don't remember much other than we ran away with it with two of us never having to claim anything (getting back to the value of soft-claims and all). As far as Doomsday is concerned, you had twenty-five posts in the first three real-life days. Here you had three, all one-liners, all pointless. That example is not an example at all.
The random phase had been over for quite some time while you sat idly around doing nothing until I called you out for it.
And, ah yes, more attempts to discredit me. That was a weak tell that I was relying on to improve the case in order to explain away the lack of kills. I've eaten my crow on that; I was also mistaken, you had used it in town context - hence the reason I've invited you to prove me wrong here. Which you have not done. At all.
Here we go.
I'm aggressive all the time, Cyan. Go find me some townie games where I wasn't, please. I beg you. Oh wait - you've quantified it with "much more" with stars and stuff to make it look important so you can't solidly prove a difference. Convenient.
Andelijah started the case on you in Prehistoric - I joined as a replacement and basically nailed you for the same exact behavior. You could even say I barned Andelijah in my intial posts. I was town. So wrong on that count.
The situation with GR here is that he explained the soft-claim better than I. You'll notice, however, that I made my position known; I was not barning him - we said the same thing, he just did it better. Wrong again.
You are so obviously scum it hurts. You tried to hide away until the storm blew over with the soft-claims and could find an easy target; unluckily for you, I shot your cover.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
It's so interesting when you have the player of 2007 vs. the player of 2008, and probably could be a really enlightening experience...I just hope this serves as more than a massive thread de-rail; at this moment, I really don't know who I like better because they both seem to have good points and DYH has been as vocal as Cyan has been quiet thus far.
So, what points do you think are good of Cyan's exactly?
What points of mine, specifically, do you think are good?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Agreed on all counts.
Unvote, Vote Cyan
[The Family]
Obviously the conflict between you 2 has yet to even come close to a resolution, but I don't think he would flat-out lie about your behavior in other games. This doesn't mean I am siding with him (you have raised points that these scumtells he speaks of and such are way off point) but I am most interested to see his response to your last post where you refute his accusations.
Dude, your sig...
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Tried to discredit your attack? Initially, no, I defended myself and pointed out a minor suspicion on my part. No FoS, no vote, etc. Something I noticed, which you very tellingly overreacted to.
Yes, I was the highest post count in Midian at the END of the game. But we're not talking about throughout a game here, we're talking about the beginning. At the beginning of Midian, I had little to say, because, shockingly, there was nothing to talk about. As far as Doomsday, 25 posts is not much for me, not in 3 days time. I didn't post at all, really, during the random phase of that game. Just like this one.
Also, I like how you ignore the parts where I provide counterexamples. Just hoping it'll go away?
The random phase really hadn't been 'over' for that long, and I disagree that there was anything really worth talking about.
Obviously it's an attempt to discredit you, you are using *bad examples*, and I'm explaining why they're bad. Shocking concept, I know.
And apparently you didn't 'eat crow'. Or not enough. Here we are having the same conversation AGAIN. But it's alright. I'll go back and find more examples of me not posting alot, in the early game, when I was town.
Hats Mafia. DotA. Those are two that immediately come to mind, without even really having to think about it. And before you bother with this one; yes they were awhile ago. Irrelevant. You get scum roles alot. You know, like now.
You did pretty much nothing to 'nail me'(Try to remember that I took the main person attacking me down with me, and manueved my other scumbuddy into winning anyway, despite losing 2 mafia in the first 3 days). Andelijah did all of the work, and you were happy to credit it all to him in THAT game thread(anyone can go look, it's easy to find). Now you're trying to make it look like you actually had to do something. Just like you're doing with GR here. Just like you've done in OTHER games where you were scum, like TFC, and Greenwood.
I don't really get what you're trying to say here..find an easy target?
So, you got me. I didn't post alot at the beginning of this game. Around post 150, people were STILL talking about Superbad, and there really was no important conversation going on. Then in the span of less than a day where I didn't bother to check the thread, the amount of posts doubled. Your accusation of me lurking here is simply off-base. And, as I have already said, I'm not feeling particularly confident in my mafia ability at this moment.
I'll also note, DYH, that in the post where you initially vote me, you plainly state that you're only doing it to get me posting. But really, I think you're just using it as a smokescreen to cover the fact that you were trying to bail out of discussing the soft-claim anymore. You never 'move on' from your arguments as town. I think you just felt overexposed; and didn't want to argue further. You did the same thing with Loran. Like I said already, you are simply not aggressive, not early game at least, as town. But you are as scum, like in the games I already stated.
And you've been wrong before, but I've never seen you "humbled."
[The Family]
The point about DYH tying himself to me is good. I remember him doing something very similar with my case on JodoYodo in HP mafia, where he was scum, which is why I brought it up as suspicious in the first place. It didn't seem natural for him to keep bringing me up, and I felt that he was either
1. Trying to make the soft claim seem to be a more valid concept simply by nature of having more people in favor of it, essentially a fallacious argument.
OR
2. Trying to lessen his own role or importance in soft claiming in case the idea failed. Almost like preemptively pinning me to him so he doesn't take the fall. Cyan's point about overexposure fits in this classification.
On the other hand, the point about Cyan lurking is also valid. I seem to remember Cyan playing more in the background in Warhammer Mafia, where he was scum. I don't recall him dominating discussion as he is generally prone to do. I'm also a little surprised that he admits the case on him is valid, but I'm not sure how that relates to his alignment.
I thought I had caught you in an inconsistency here, but I see you do say "I'm not actually recommending it right now" in regards to a full name claim. So you suggested the idea of a name claim, however, now you don't want to do anything beyond a Marvel/DC/Other claim.
What discussion changed your mind?
The game seems too small for "both independent", so strike that.
Cyan does tend, as town, to find someone early day 1 and latch onto them like a bulldog. He hasn't done that yet, so I think the "both town" can be eliminated.
And though I don't like DYH because he's the leading promoter of the day 1 partial claim movement, which I feel just isn't going to help the town as much as he seems to think it will (or possibly help the mafia more... either way, I still think it's not a wise choice), his reasoning behind the Cyan case is solid enough to move my vote.
Unvote, Vote Cyan - Moderator?, can we have a vote count please?
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
unvote, vote Cyan
Record: 3-2
Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
Doomsday Mafia - Mafia Roleblocker - Win
Battle Royale Mafia - Serial Daykiller - Loss
Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
However this statement:
To me this sounds like an admission of guilt.
VOTE CYAN
I never wanted a full claim on Day 1, but I did want it discussed to get reactions. If I came out and said "we shouldn't do this", though, I didn't think the discussions would be as useful.
I don't see how you can read this as a scum tell unless you think that Cyan was actually giving up and accepting a lynching. "you got me" isn't actually that damning. If you actually believe he's scum, you should be able to find something else to support that. If you can't find anything else, that's probably a sign that you shouldn't be voting for him.
You are correct. In that tiny blib, I took it as Cyan saying "You are right, I got nothing, you got me".
I guess you didn't read the part where I talked about "good points" I felt they both had. For 2 of the best players to have what, at this time, seem to be legitimate tells for the other, I don't doubt the possibility of a scumbuddy war.
I want to go read some other games and try to see for myself what's going on here because a problem I have at the moment is how scum-ridden the Cyan wagon seems to be:
That reason, and that reason alone makes you feel he isn't town?
You had to take it that far out of context to place a vote on Cyan?
Just so we're clear, I'm still in full-support of the soft-claim. I've said as much multiple times, and indicated that I'm not changing my mind unless someone can show me how it's going to hurt. I don't think there's any way I could "lessen my role" in this - I've got about 20 posts on that issue alone today, I believe. As I stated to Cyan, my arguments for the soft-claim are there - I just felt you did a better job with the explanation as to why it's beneficial.
As for Cyan admitting my case is valid, he can't argue the point I made against him because I'm right. He's finally said as much. The question you need to ask yourself now is: Is this how scum Cyan plays?
Cyan's whole advantage as a town player is that he's very polarizing - he gets in people's faces, he antagonizes them to the point of utter frustration sometimes, but what it does is draw massive reactions. If he's not out doing that, he's not playing his town game. It's really quite simple.
More than just that, though, is the subject he was specifically avoiding - one he's tried to turn back on me. Soft-claims. Rather than have to commit an opinion on the subject, I imagine he was hoping it would blow over quickly enough he wouldn't have to cement himself into a position. When he was called out for it, he made a pretty general "I don't like soft-claims".
Have you ever seen town Cyan be so passive about a hot topic? I haven't.
I'd like to know exactly how you feel about Cyan before you go telling Roja how he should think, frankly. You haven't commented on this situation that I can recall?
Back to Cyan:
Hats Mafia and DotA were awhile ago, but I remember quite a bit about them. In Hats, Azrael had contacted me N0 and we spent the large majority of the day talking about his master plan - a claim gambit, no less - which I supported. Then there's the major flaw in this argument - Tilde ended day one in three real-life days. I had already started arguing with Loran's gimmick, though.
DotA - Fayul made a suggestion for the town RBer to come out D1 after a kill-less N0 - which I supported and defended vehemently in the face of what was ultimately scum-backed opposition (sutherlands + Axelrod, IIRC). I spent much of day one defending myself for defending fayul. I think I had to claim, if memory serves me correct. I was aggressive in reverse, there (not to mention right).
What exactly do you think my case is predicated on? You know, the one with the good points you referenced? It's based on Cyan not playing like Cyan, which is exactly what ~ is getting at.
You concern me. FoS: Some One
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Isn't he "latched onto you?"
Is it really that far out of context? How would you interpret what he is saying in those 2 or 3 sentances?
@TDT you mention that your "files" have shown differences, mainly this quote:
What files are you talking about?
No, I haven't. While Cyan has, to my recollection, been in every one of my games so far on this site, I still can't read him properly. He always looks scummy to me - I've so far thought he was scum while townie, SK, and mafia. The fact that I'm not getting a scum read off him this game, then, says that he's off, but not in what way. Since a lot of the argument against him seemed to be based off his play history from before I arrived, I thought I'd wait to see how that played out before chiming in.
To make it clear if it wasn't from above: I have not been convinced that Cyan is scum this game. I'm willing to leave him alone on the assumption that Cyan will be Cyan later, and we'll hopefully be able to get leads or not based on his later play. I don't have much of an opinion on you either, aside from a bit of a negative vibe from when you and loran each responded to a suggestion that you were scumbuddies with "can't be, I'm not scum." That isn't terribly useful as opinions, I know, but it's what I've got for now.
Tdt = Tmt ><
[The Family]