She already had a vote on her, didn't think throwing another on her for fun would be wise so I just followed the train and voted where the chips fell. It was directly random.
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She already had a vote on her, didn't think throwing another on her for fun would be wise so I just followed the train and voted where the chips fell. It was directly random.
I don't see the point. There are enough superheros out there that claiming one of these three doesn't interfere with the ability of the scum to fake-claim, but it does give information out to those who know more about the setup (that is, the mafia).
Here's a followup, that I've run around a couple times in my head. I'm not actually recommending it right now, but I do want some discussion. How about we just claim our names right now? No abilities, but we claim Batman, or John Constantine, or whatever. It'll likely expose some power roles, but depending on how the scum are set up it might also catch us some bad guys.
Ged got lynched in HP because I picked him up the collar and threw him directly under the giant bus headed down the road in order to distance both myself and dagger from him.
He did later speculate on the day-talk and that helped contribute to his ultimately being lynched.
I have no idea - why don't you ask Roja if the scum can day-talk?
I have seen people here freak out over random voting.
So you didn't random vote jqlgirl because you were worried about how other people would respond to it?
Unvote, Vote Roja
I think DYH's suggestion makes more sense, though I don't even know about name claiming tomorrow.
I'm skeptical of the name claim. We have no information to suggest names are indicative of alignment, meaning there is a possibility we do so with no potential gain. Furthermore, it's possible that names are indicative of power (some superheros lend themselves better to power roles), which would be a loss.
Quote from RobRoy »
It'll likely expose some power roles, but depending on how the scum are set up it might also catch us some bad guys
A likely exposing of power roles is worth the possibility of catching bad guys based on completely unknown info about the scum setup? Doesn't seem like a balanced equation to me.
I think the Cubus proposed soft-claim is a good idea. It's possible we learn nothing useful from it, but I don't see how it could possibly hurt us either.
.... this was exactly WHY I didn't vote for JQLgirl to begin with. /sigh.
That's the way it goes. When you are worried about your own image, people tend to attack you for the very posts you so carefully crafted to avoid suspicion.
Why did you claim before a consensus had been reached on whether or not to soft claim?
Actually, GR, I'd like to see the vote not recanted in the same post, frankly.
@Roja: I have something important I need to check. Can you tell me which games you've played here on MTGS? (other than Smalltown - open setup doesn't help with this project)
PPE: Sarnathed somewhat by Some One. Request still stands - without the insulting noob comment.
Well, since we've arrived at the "Day 1 massclaim proposal" phase of the game, I guess I should remove the random vote.
Unvote Andelijah
Quote from RobRoy »
How about we just claim our names right now? No abilities, but we claim Batman, or John Constantine, or whatever. It'll likely expose some power roles, but depending on how the scum are set up it might also catch us some bad guys.
Let's consider the wide array and variety of possible roles in this game. Go into your local comic shop and count the number of titles on the rack. That's a LOT of potential roles roaming around. As good as the day 1 massclaim tactic is, I think any sort of massclaim probably isn't going to limit the scum's potential for false claiming.
Quote from Cubus »
That and there are a lot of DC-versions of Marvel heroes and vice-versa. I don't think subsets would limit the scum all that much.
Agreed, Princess Zarda and Hyperion, power set wise, look an awful lot like Wonder Woman and Superman.... (Though Squadron Supreme members do apparently like getting their freak on with each other :eek:)
Quote from Cubus »
Are the mafia supervillains or heroes-gone-bad?
Also known as : "I am the Iron Patriot, and I approve these Avengers!"
We don't know if the mafia were/are able to communicate with each other at this point in the game, so it'd be a crap-shoot at best I think. I doubt Ged would make it that simple anyway.
Let's consider the wide array and variety of possible roles in this game. Go into your local comic shop and count the number of titles on the rack. That's a LOT of potential roles roaming around. As good as the day 1 massclaim tactic is, I think any sort of massclaim probably isn't going to limit the scum's potential for false claiming.
I'm quite aware of the depth and breadth of superheros out there. It's why the DC/Marvel/other claim isn't going to do any good, although it's also unlikely to do much harm. Hence the suggestion to discuss a full flavour-claim on Day 1. I think we're going to end up not doing it, but if we're already talking about claims, it needs to be on the table.
Actually, GR, I'd like to see the vote not recanted in the same post, frankly.
@Roja: I have something important I need to check. Can you tell me which games you've played here on MTGS? (other than Smalltown - open setup doesn't help with this project)
PPE: Sarnathed somewhat by Some One. Request still stands - without the insulting noob comment.
Off the top of my head the other games I have played in: Prehistoric, Newbie 20 I think (Alice in wonderland.), FF7, I replaced in Endangered Species (another newbie), I was Bernado in Hamlet mafia.
I'll unvote my vote on Andelijah later, this is only to please Goat and DYH.
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I've done some quick research based on the games Roja indicated he's played in; however, I'd like to see the responses to GR's questions before I divulge exactly what it was I was looking for.
I don't really see much the point of asking Roja for a spree of votes and unvotes, but even more disturbing is the fact he went along with the requests anyway.
@Roja: I think you're missing the point of the entire exchange?
Here's a followup, that I've run around a couple times in my head. I'm not actually recommending it right now, but I do want some discussion. How about we just claim our names right now? No abilities, but we claim Batman, or John Constantine, or whatever. It'll likely expose some power roles, but depending on how the scum are set up it might also catch us some bad guys.
Sure. My rolename is uber.
The soft claims could be a good game initiator. I would suggest claiming the first letter of your rolename, but that's toeing the line of cyptoclaim/acronyms?
@Some One: What exactly were you asking the question of Roja for? I'm curious if it's the same mindset, or something else entirely.
I think it's pretty self explanatory: To compare his behavior in this game to that of other games he has played in. Is there another mindset you have that I don't? Is there a different mindset you thought I had?
Cubus was asking for your opinion on whether or not to go ahead with soft claims. I can see how you could misinterpret that, though.
Oh, I took it as he was expecting me to claim my info.
Did you trust Cubus' motives for asking? Why or why not?
Well obviously I trust his motives as I already stated my info. I usually game the mod with these type of things, but I would like to see if there is a balance with the claims. I am also curious if this info helps his role.
Why are you willing to vote Andelijah because I ask you to? What are your motivations in trying to please myself and DYH?
To prove I dont have any voting restrictions like you thought (or still think). Motivation? I am answering the questions asked, the motivation is help you and DYH understand where I am comming from.
Quote from Dagger »
I don't really see much the point of asking Roja for a spree of votes and unvotes, but even more disturbing is the fact he went along with the requests anyway.
@Roja: I think you're missing the point of the entire exchange?
I am trying to be helpful in whatever they were thinking, I think I would have been heckled more if I didn't vote when requested too.
The exchange between who? I dont understand who you are talking about.
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The soft claims could be a good game initiator. I would suggest claiming the first letter of your rolename, but that's toeing the line of cyptoclaim/acronyms?
No, it's not i don't think. Cryptoclaims basically forced the mafiosos to create a total false claim on day 1. First letter of role name claiming simply means they have to choose a character on day 1, not the corresponding role (assuming their rolenames are scummy enough they need to false claim).
Still, i don't think a first letter claim is worthwhile....doesn't narrow the mafia's options really so it doesn't really have a point (and there's always the small chance of shaman mafia shenanigans....speaking of old games :-P)
In fact, i'm not really sure how you'd structure a useful sub-claim here. Gender's useless, as is comics brand (Marvel, DC, other).
Anything other than name claiming really doesn't do anything in terms of giving us useful info for now or later on. I'm not sure we want to go there yet, personally.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
When you pointed out he seemed overly concerned with his image, he said:
Thus, I'm thinking, "Where were you important and showed concern for your image?"
It was, in fact, the same response that triggered me to ask that question.
FWIW, in Prehistoric Mafia, it was very late-game before Roja became pressured to claim. He was vanilla in the newbie game I checked, so that wasn't helpful, but his reaction in Hamlet mafia fit in with what happened here. He was under a little pressure relatively early-on (day 2 from a scum Az as it turns out) and spat out that he'd spent the night with the queen.
So, it's a consistent reaction with one time he had a town power role and came under pressure early. Enough to warrant -
Unvote
I don't think pursuing Roja right now is a good option. He's locked himself into something that when the time is right he'll either have to put up or shut up.
Loran's recent post is nice and waffly, though, I'd like to pressure him instead.
I don't think pursuing Roja right now is a good option. He's locked himself into something that when the time is right he'll either have to put up or shut up.
Loran's recent post is nice and waffly, though, I'd like to pressure him instead.
Vote: Loran16
Honestly, its waffly cuz i don't know what to think about subclaims. I literally (and im really not kidding) rewrote that post 5 times trying to figure out what i thought.
I'm sort of in a weird phase of mafia thinking....i've been trying to ignore claim based attacking and instead trying to figure out the mindsets of other players from their posts and figure out if they're scum. Yet, my sole attempt at this lately (DV case in Fairy tale) failed miserably.
Still I see a mass name claim as essentially leading into the claim based analysis i don't want to fall into, so i'm not really wanting to go through with such an action. I don't think it'll lead to an immediately caught scum due to a stupid claim, so really its not worth it.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
No, it's not i don't think. Cryptoclaims basically forced the mafiosos to create a total false claim on day 1. First letter of role name claiming simply means they have to choose a character on day 1, not the corresponding role (assuming their rolenames are scummy enough they need to false claim).
Still, i don't think a first letter claim is worthwhile....doesn't narrow the mafia's options really so it doesn't really have a point (and there's always the small chance of shaman mafia shenanigans....speaking of old games :-P)
In fact, i'm not really sure how you'd structure a useful sub-claim here. Gender's useless, as is comics brand (Marvel, DC, other).
Anything other than name claiming really doesn't do anything in terms of giving us useful info for now or later on. I'm not sure we want to go there yet, personally.
Different situation. In that case, we were talking cryptoclaims, which I knew at the time to be harmful to the mafia.
My post there was intended (obvious in retrospect) to paint the cryptoclaims as useless without truly coming against them since they were obviously one sided.
Name claiming is far different from cryptoclaiming in a game where the scum side has not been identified by the mod or through deaths. It is unlikely to truly catch anyone, especially given the wide range of rolenames that this game can have. And it's likely to turn the game into a name-claim analysis bitty that I don't want.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
That's the way it goes. When you are worried about your own image, people tend to attack you for the very posts you so carefully crafted to avoid suspicion.
Why did you claim before a consensus had been reached on whether or not to soft claim?
Roja has passed the first test. Now you must prove that you can vote Andelijah.
@andelijah: Loran has actually nailed the problem right on the head. In both instances he's discounting the usefulness of claiming. The HP example is more extreme, this one is masked through adopting Azrael's style. Either way, I get the impression he's not comfortable with any sort of claim.
@Loran: Feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong in that assessment.
@andelijah: Loran has actually nailed the problem right on the head. In both instances he's discounting the usefulness of claiming. The HP example is more extreme, this one is masked through adopting Azrael's style. Either way, I get the impression he's not comfortable with any sort of claim.
Cryptoclaiming, where you have to put your entire role on the table day 1, is vastly different than subclaiming, where you barely even have to give your name. Only one of those methods is useful.
@andelijah: Loran has actually nailed the problem right on the head. In both instances he's discounting the usefulness of claiming. The HP example is more extreme, this one is masked through adopting Azrael's style. Either way, I get the impression he's not comfortable with any sort of claim.
@Loran: Feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong in that assessment.
First, i think ande has got my point. It's not that one situation is an extreme, its that cryptoclaiming is far far different than sub claiming or name claiming.
Second...look at my play in FT, i have been trying to adopt az's style. I'm not masking anything.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Cryptoclaiming, where you have to put your entire role on the table day 1, is vastly different than subclaiming, where you barely even have to give your name. Only one of those methods is useful.
Any time you're able to lock scum into a narrower range of claims is a win for the town.
There were a couple mini games a year or so ago where the gender/type claims were effective. Anime mafia on News comes to mind (mafia flubbed gender claims), Sorryguy's Shakespeare-themed game does as well (the name is escaping me).
This is not to say that crypto-claims aren't completely broken and hence banned (thank goodness), but to say subclaiming isn't useful is just wrong, IMO.
Any time I've been scum, I always dread the inevitable "claim of some sort" discussion, because ultimately, unless the town does something stupid like a complete mass-claim it generally ends up in their favor.
* * * *
PPE: @loran: You're arguing that you don't want to rely on claim information, but rather just behavioral evidence. As I've argued before, the game operates under both - to ignore one or the other is irresponsible.
It boils down to this: Give me a good reason we shouldn't subclaim. Not wanting the game to turn into what it normally does is not a good reason.
Any time you're able to lock scum into a narrower range of claims is a win for the town.
Unlikely to happen here.
There were a couple mini games a year or so ago where the gender/type claims were effective. Anime mafia on News comes to mind (mafia flubbed gender claims), Sorryguy's Shakespeare-themed game does as well (the name is escaping me).
Can you point to an mtgs game? I don't recall one here.
This is not to say that crypto-claims aren't completely broken and hence banned (thank goodness), but to say subclaiming isn't useful is just wrong, IMO.
Depends on the game. In this game, i fail to see how it would help.
Any time I've been scum, I always dread the inevitable "claim of some sort" discussion, because ultimately, unless the town does something stupid like a complete mass-claim it generally ends up in their favor.
This is a bold-faced lie right here, as it depends on the game. In HP, yes you dread the claim of some sort since the mafia's rolenames were inherently scummy and the town knew what to look for. In lets say i don't know, any xyre game, Star Trek game, Fairy tale, Doomsday etc etc etc you don't fear them at all as they don't hurt you at all.
* * * *
PPE: @loran: You're arguing that you don't want to rely on claim information, but rather just behavioral evidence. As I've argued before, the game operates under both - to ignore one or the other is irresponsible.
It boils down to this: Give me a good reason we shouldn't subclaim. Not wanting the game to turn into what it normally does is not a good reason.
I'm arguing against a name claim on that basis. The game will devolve into total claim analysis to start rather than actual play-analysis. Its not a matter of both being taken into consideration...claim analysis will overtake role analysis and we'll likely end up with an early mislynch with little info resulting because of it.
As for sub claim, meh, you can do it. It won't help. I don't really get your love of these things and from what i know of my role they're extremely likely to be pointless from the town point of view. Just cause you can do a pointless thing doesn't mean you should (And vice-versa, i know, but still). In games where the subject matter is limited, a subclaim works. Where the subject matter is vast and its extents are unknown....they're purely a waste of time.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Explain. If you've forced someone into say a DC claim- that has limited the number of overall claims they can make. True/False?
Now, the person they intended to claim to match up with their ability gets claimed by someone else - harder/easier to claim?
I think you can see where I'm going with this.
Quote from Loran16 »
Can you point to an mtgs game? I don't recall one here.
Sorryguy's game was here - I think it was Verona mafia. Granted, the set-up catered to that much better than I'd expect here, to toss it away as worthless doesn't make sense. Heck, if the town had bothered to do anything at all that resembled a subclaim in Midian (the next game I played in), it could've been disastrous to us - instead, we went on to a flawless victory where two of us never had to claim a thing.
Quote from loran16 »
Depends on the game. In this game, i fail to see how it would help.
See above.
Quote from loran16 »
This is a bold-faced lie right here, as it depends on the game. In HP, yes you dread the claim of some sort since the mafia's rolenames were inherently scummy and the town knew what to look for. In lets say i don't know, any xyre game, Star Trek game, Fairy tale, Doomsday etc etc etc you don't fear them at all as they don't hurt you at all.
The name portion of claiming might not, but there are other aspects to consider - gender, race, etc. No, I hate claiming anything at all as scum in the early game. I want my options as wide-open as possible until as late as possible.
Quote from loran16 »
I'm arguing against a name claim on that basis. The game will devolve into total claim analysis to start rather than actual play-analysis. Its not a matter of both being taken into consideration...claim analysis will overtake role analysis and we'll likely end up with an early mislynch with little info resulting because of it.
This is going to degenerate into the same conversation I had elsewhere - there are two pieces to the game: scummy people get to claim range on behavioral analysis. Those people are then forced to claim. You weigh the two together and voila! It's not as if someone is going to name-claim and then you create the case against them, but by doing subclaims pre-emptively, you give scum less outs when they become the one under pressure.
Quote from loran16 »
As for sub claim, meh, you can do it. It won't help. I don't really get your love of these things and from what i know of my role they're extremely likely to be pointless from the town point of view. Just cause you can do a pointless thing doesn't mean you should (And vice-versa, i know, but still). In games where the subject matter is limited, a subclaim works. Where the subject matter is vast and its extents are unknown....they're purely a waste of time.
Wasting time is also not a good reason not to do something. On the flip-side to what you just said to me, I don't understand your aversion to these things. If it's not going to harm the town, and could possibly trip up a scum, help me understand the problem.
I'm de-railing the thread, so I'll stop that argument here. I'd just like to continue with the "yes/no" from everyone on some sort of sub-claim and/or a name-claim.
Explain. If you've forced someone into say a DC claim- that has limited the number of overall claims they can make. True/False?
False. That's not really a limit given the huge 'verse DC or Marvel or the other companies have assembled.
Now, the person they intended to claim to match up with their ability gets claimed by someone else - harder/easier to claim?
Irrelevant. The situation is crazy unlikely in this game, and the huge 'verses once again make it rather easy to find overlap, barring a claim of a rather unusual background. Besides, this assumes a large correlation between names and abilities. My role suggests that this may not be the case.
Sorryguy's game was here - I think it was Verona mafia. Granted, the set-up catered to that much better than I'd expect here, to toss it away as worthless doesn't make sense.
Verona was broken due to symmetry.
Heck, if the town had bothered to do anything at all that resembled a subclaim in Midian (the next game I played in), it could've been disastrous to us - instead, we went on to a flawless victory where two of us never had to claim a thing.
Well part of that was due to a double kill you had iirc. But once again that was a theme with a small scope. Not the case here.
See above.
See above.
The name portion of claiming might not, but there are other aspects to consider - gender, race, etc. No, I hate claiming anything at all as scum in the early game. I want my options as wide-open as possible until as late as possible.
Baloney. In this circumstance if you're a scum, you're at best minorly annoyed by such a subclaim. If you already had a false claim that you had to drop because of a subclaim, you'd have plenty of time to think of another one.
This is going to degenerate into the same conversation I had elsewhere - there are two pieces to the game: scummy people get to claim range on behavioral analysis. Those people are then forced to claim. You weigh the two together and voila! It's not as if someone is going to name-claim and then you create the case against them, but by doing subclaims pre-emptively, you give scum less outs when they become the one under pressure.
Blue Part: My experience differs, that when name claims are out, people build cases of **** that are led totally by claim-reasoning and do not weigh the two things equally. This ends up hurting the town barring really bad claims.
Green Part: You are not really limiting the outs here. That would be the case in cryptoclaiming. It's certainly not the case in subclaiming.
Wasting time is also not a good reason not to do something. On the flip-side to what you just said to me, I don't understand your aversion to these things. If it's not going to harm the town, and could possibly trip up a scum, help me understand the problem.
I don't care if we do a sub claim. It's useless and a waste of time. I have issues with wasting time. Sort of pet peeve of mine. Makes me want to poke you with a spork.
In all reality, I could care less, it won't do anything whatsoever. You'll notice ive never really said im against sub claiming, cuz im not. we can do it, its just pointless.
I'm against name claiming, which is different as you know, mainly because of the side effects ive described. You claim the game wont devolve into that, I say it will. My experience is that it especially has recently, and you really can't say otherwise.
I'm de-railing the thread, so I'll stop that argument here. I'd just like to continue with the "yes/no" from everyone on some sort of sub-claim and/or a name-claim.
How're you derailing the thread?
And Don't care on subclaim, No on Nameclaim.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
De-railing the thread into mafia theory discussion more than anything.
Oh well, a few things:
You realize you're arguing against basic principles of math, right? If I give you 1000 possible claims and divide it into several groups, the number of claims is clearly smaller. There is no way this is not possible - there are not infinite superheros, even if there are quite a few.
Perhaps you're minorly annoyed as scum when claiming comes up - I am more than minorly annoyed.
You must be playing with different people than I am, honestly; I'm not seeing that at all. I'm seeing the exact progression I described above.
1. Someone does something scummy.
2. Discussion/votes.
3. They full-claim.
4. They get lynched or they don't.
I'd be quite suspicious of people drawing up cases otherwise, frankly. By inserting subclaim information pre-emptively, #3 becomes harder to fake; not a method to attack people by - unless there's a gaping discrepency (Krobelus, anyone?).
spotofprey
Cyan
DYH
Goatrevolt
Cubus
Serial Killer
andelijah
TOWN
~Tilde~
Abandon Hope
ced395
Dagger
Infinis
JqlGirl
loran16
Numegil
RobRoy
Roja
Some One
The Mad Tapper
~insert hidden player~
MOD GIMMICK
CropCircles
GG, scum
[The Family]
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Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
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I am thrilled by the danger of our present situation. TMT lives for such adventure!
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Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
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V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Sorry I missed it.
(Post 43 for others who might have missed it.)
She already had a vote on her, didn't think throwing another on her for fun would be wise so I just followed the train and voted where the chips fell. It was directly random.
I think it's a good idea.
Why wouldn't it have been wise?
I don't see the point. There are enough superheros out there that claiming one of these three doesn't interfere with the ability of the scum to fake-claim, but it does give information out to those who know more about the setup (that is, the mafia).
Here's a followup, that I've run around a couple times in my head. I'm not actually recommending it right now, but I do want some discussion. How about we just claim our names right now? No abilities, but we claim Batman, or John Constantine, or whatever. It'll likely expose some power roles, but depending on how the scum are set up it might also catch us some bad guys.
While I would have liked to hear from everyone, I will say this is a good idea.
I can be classified as both DC AND as Other. Not saying anything else about it.
I have seen people here freak out over random voting.
soft-claim today; name-claim tomorrow once we can establish some level of a claim order based on play.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Didn't luck into Rorschach himself then, eh?
That's why I want to lock them into subset claims today, then the names tomorrow.
We were able to speak during day one; after that it was night-speak only.
We hadn't decided this was actually happening yet, you know.
You seem overly concerned about your image.
Unvote; Vote: Roja
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
He did later speculate on the day-talk and that helped contribute to his ultimately being lynched.
I have no idea - why don't you ask Roja if the scum can day-talk?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
So you didn't random vote jqlgirl because you were worried about how other people would respond to it?
Unvote, Vote Roja
I think DYH's suggestion makes more sense, though I don't even know about name claiming tomorrow.
I'm skeptical of the name claim. We have no information to suggest names are indicative of alignment, meaning there is a possibility we do so with no potential gain. Furthermore, it's possible that names are indicative of power (some superheros lend themselves better to power roles), which would be a loss.
A likely exposing of power roles is worth the possibility of catching bad guys based on completely unknown info about the scum setup? Doesn't seem like a balanced equation to me.
I think the Cubus proposed soft-claim is a good idea. It's possible we learn nothing useful from it, but I don't see how it could possibly hurt us either.
BTW, I am also DTF.
* CropCircles moves RobRoy to scum list, bumping Cyan.
[The Family]
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
The answer you seek is within this very thread. Or go watch Superbad.
I'm DTF for Soft-claims as it were.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
When I am important I tend to yes.
.... this was exactly WHY I didn't vote for JQLgirl to begin with. /sigh.
To prove I can vote JqlGirl, Vote Jqlgirl.
UNVOTE
That's the way it goes. When you are worried about your own image, people tend to attack you for the very posts you so carefully crafted to avoid suspicion.
Why did you claim before a consensus had been reached on whether or not to soft claim?
Roja has passed the first test. Now you must prove that you can vote Andelijah.
@Roja: I have something important I need to check. Can you tell me which games you've played here on MTGS? (other than Smalltown - open setup doesn't help with this project)
PPE: Sarnathed somewhat by Some One. Request still stands - without the insulting noob comment.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Unvote Andelijah
Let's consider the wide array and variety of possible roles in this game. Go into your local comic shop and count the number of titles on the rack. That's a LOT of potential roles roaming around. As good as the day 1 massclaim tactic is, I think any sort of massclaim probably isn't going to limit the scum's potential for false claiming.
Agreed, Princess Zarda and Hyperion, power set wise, look an awful lot like Wonder Woman and Superman.... (Though Squadron Supreme members do apparently like getting their freak on with each other :eek:)
Also known as : "I am the Iron Patriot, and I approve these Avengers!"
We don't know if the mafia were/are able to communicate with each other at this point in the game, so it'd be a crap-shoot at best I think. I doubt Ged would make it that simple anyway.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
I'm quite aware of the depth and breadth of superheros out there. It's why the DC/Marvel/other claim isn't going to do any good, although it's also unlikely to do much harm. Hence the suggestion to discuss a full flavour-claim on Day 1. I think we're going to end up not doing it, but if we're already talking about claims, it needs to be on the table.
Cubis asked. And I didn't see any harm in revealing that info about myself.
And because you asked:
Vote Andelijah
I think I have played in about 5-8 or so games on this site.
Off the top of my head the other games I have played in: Prehistoric, Newbie 20 I think (Alice in wonderland.), FF7, I replaced in Endangered Species (another newbie), I was Bernado in Hamlet mafia.
I'll unvote my vote on Andelijah later, this is only to please Goat and DYH.
Cubus was asking for your opinion on whether or not to go ahead with soft claims. I can see how you could misinterpret that, though.
Did you trust Cubus' motives for asking? Why or why not?
Why are you willing to vote Andelijah because I ask you to? What are your motivations in trying to please myself and DYH?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
@Some One: What exactly were you asking the question of Roja for? I'm curious if it's the same mindset, or something else entirely.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
@Roja: I think you're missing the point of the entire exchange?
Sure.
Sure. My rolename is uber.
The soft claims could be a good game initiator. I would suggest claiming the first letter of your rolename, but that's toeing the line of cyptoclaim/acronyms?
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
I think it's pretty self explanatory: To compare his behavior in this game to that of other games he has played in. Is there another mindset you have that I don't? Is there a different mindset you thought I had?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
When you pointed out he seemed overly concerned with his image, he said:
Thus, I'm thinking, "Where were you important and showed concern for your image?"
Oh, I took it as he was expecting me to claim my info.
Well obviously I trust his motives as I already stated my info. I usually game the mod with these type of things, but I would like to see if there is a balance with the claims. I am also curious if this info helps his role.
To prove I dont have any voting restrictions like you thought (or still think). Motivation? I am answering the questions asked, the motivation is help you and DYH understand where I am comming from.
I am trying to be helpful in whatever they were thinking, I think I would have been heckled more if I didn't vote when requested too.
The exchange between who? I dont understand who you are talking about.
No, it's not i don't think. Cryptoclaims basically forced the mafiosos to create a total false claim on day 1. First letter of role name claiming simply means they have to choose a character on day 1, not the corresponding role (assuming their rolenames are scummy enough they need to false claim).
Still, i don't think a first letter claim is worthwhile....doesn't narrow the mafia's options really so it doesn't really have a point (and there's always the small chance of shaman mafia shenanigans....speaking of old games :-P)
In fact, i'm not really sure how you'd structure a useful sub-claim here. Gender's useless, as is comics brand (Marvel, DC, other).
Anything other than name claiming really doesn't do anything in terms of giving us useful info for now or later on. I'm not sure we want to go there yet, personally.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
It was, in fact, the same response that triggered me to ask that question.
FWIW, in Prehistoric Mafia, it was very late-game before Roja became pressured to claim. He was vanilla in the newbie game I checked, so that wasn't helpful, but his reaction in Hamlet mafia fit in with what happened here. He was under a little pressure relatively early-on (day 2 from a scum Az as it turns out) and spat out that he'd spent the night with the queen.
So, it's a consistent reaction with one time he had a town power role and came under pressure early. Enough to warrant -
Unvote
I don't think pursuing Roja right now is a good option. He's locked himself into something that when the time is right he'll either have to put up or shut up.
Loran's recent post is nice and waffly, though, I'd like to pressure him instead.
Vote: Loran16
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Honestly, its waffly cuz i don't know what to think about subclaims. I literally (and im really not kidding) rewrote that post 5 times trying to figure out what i thought.
I'm sort of in a weird phase of mafia thinking....i've been trying to ignore claim based attacking and instead trying to figure out the mindsets of other players from their posts and figure out if they're scum. Yet, my sole attempt at this lately (DV case in Fairy tale) failed miserably.
Still I see a mass name claim as essentially leading into the claim based analysis i don't want to fall into, so i'm not really wanting to go through with such an action. I don't think it'll lead to an immediately caught scum due to a stupid claim, so really its not worth it.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Harry Potter:
See my concern?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Different situation. In that case, we were talking cryptoclaims, which I knew at the time to be harmful to the mafia.
My post there was intended (obvious in retrospect) to paint the cryptoclaims as useless without truly coming against them since they were obviously one sided.
Name claiming is far different from cryptoclaiming in a game where the scum side has not been identified by the mod or through deaths. It is unlikely to truly catch anyone, especially given the wide range of rolenames that this game can have. And it's likely to turn the game into a name-claim analysis bitty that I don't want.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
No.
Salvation Mafia Clan
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last updated 03/23/11
Unvote just in case.
@Loran: Feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong in that assessment.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Salvation Mafia Clan
Mafia Stats
last updated 03/23/11
First, i think ande has got my point. It's not that one situation is an extreme, its that cryptoclaiming is far far different than sub claiming or name claiming.
Second...look at my play in FT, i have been trying to adopt az's style. I'm not masking anything.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Any time you're able to lock scum into a narrower range of claims is a win for the town.
There were a couple mini games a year or so ago where the gender/type claims were effective. Anime mafia on News comes to mind (mafia flubbed gender claims), Sorryguy's Shakespeare-themed game does as well (the name is escaping me).
This is not to say that crypto-claims aren't completely broken and hence banned (thank goodness), but to say subclaiming isn't useful is just wrong, IMO.
Any time I've been scum, I always dread the inevitable "claim of some sort" discussion, because ultimately, unless the town does something stupid like a complete mass-claim it generally ends up in their favor.
* * * *
PPE: @loran: You're arguing that you don't want to rely on claim information, but rather just behavioral evidence. As I've argued before, the game operates under both - to ignore one or the other is irresponsible.
It boils down to this: Give me a good reason we shouldn't subclaim. Not wanting the game to turn into what it normally does is not a good reason.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Unlikely to happen here.
Can you point to an mtgs game? I don't recall one here.
Depends on the game. In this game, i fail to see how it would help.
This is a bold-faced lie right here, as it depends on the game. In HP, yes you dread the claim of some sort since the mafia's rolenames were inherently scummy and the town knew what to look for. In lets say i don't know, any xyre game, Star Trek game, Fairy tale, Doomsday etc etc etc you don't fear them at all as they don't hurt you at all.
I'm arguing against a name claim on that basis. The game will devolve into total claim analysis to start rather than actual play-analysis. Its not a matter of both being taken into consideration...claim analysis will overtake role analysis and we'll likely end up with an early mislynch with little info resulting because of it.
As for sub claim, meh, you can do it. It won't help. I don't really get your love of these things and from what i know of my role they're extremely likely to be pointless from the town point of view. Just cause you can do a pointless thing doesn't mean you should (And vice-versa, i know, but still). In games where the subject matter is limited, a subclaim works. Where the subject matter is vast and its extents are unknown....they're purely a waste of time.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Explain. If you've forced someone into say a DC claim- that has limited the number of overall claims they can make. True/False?
Now, the person they intended to claim to match up with their ability gets claimed by someone else - harder/easier to claim?
I think you can see where I'm going with this.
Sorryguy's game was here - I think it was Verona mafia. Granted, the set-up catered to that much better than I'd expect here, to toss it away as worthless doesn't make sense. Heck, if the town had bothered to do anything at all that resembled a subclaim in Midian (the next game I played in), it could've been disastrous to us - instead, we went on to a flawless victory where two of us never had to claim a thing.
See above.
The name portion of claiming might not, but there are other aspects to consider - gender, race, etc. No, I hate claiming anything at all as scum in the early game. I want my options as wide-open as possible until as late as possible.
This is going to degenerate into the same conversation I had elsewhere - there are two pieces to the game: scummy people get to claim range on behavioral analysis. Those people are then forced to claim. You weigh the two together and voila! It's not as if someone is going to name-claim and then you create the case against them, but by doing subclaims pre-emptively, you give scum less outs when they become the one under pressure.
Wasting time is also not a good reason not to do something. On the flip-side to what you just said to me, I don't understand your aversion to these things. If it's not going to harm the town, and could possibly trip up a scum, help me understand the problem.
I'm de-railing the thread, so I'll stop that argument here. I'd just like to continue with the "yes/no" from everyone on some sort of sub-claim and/or a name-claim.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
False. That's not really a limit given the huge 'verse DC or Marvel or the other companies have assembled.
Irrelevant. The situation is crazy unlikely in this game, and the huge 'verses once again make it rather easy to find overlap, barring a claim of a rather unusual background. Besides, this assumes a large correlation between names and abilities. My role suggests that this may not be the case.
Verona was broken due to symmetry.
Well part of that was due to a double kill you had iirc. But once again that was a theme with a small scope. Not the case here.
See above.
Baloney. In this circumstance if you're a scum, you're at best minorly annoyed by such a subclaim. If you already had a false claim that you had to drop because of a subclaim, you'd have plenty of time to think of another one.
Blue Part: My experience differs, that when name claims are out, people build cases of **** that are led totally by claim-reasoning and do not weigh the two things equally. This ends up hurting the town barring really bad claims.
Green Part: You are not really limiting the outs here. That would be the case in cryptoclaiming. It's certainly not the case in subclaiming.
I don't care if we do a sub claim. It's useless and a waste of time. I have issues with wasting time. Sort of pet peeve of mine. Makes me want to poke you with a spork.
In all reality, I could care less, it won't do anything whatsoever. You'll notice ive never really said im against sub claiming, cuz im not. we can do it, its just pointless.
I'm against name claiming, which is different as you know, mainly because of the side effects ive described. You claim the game wont devolve into that, I say it will. My experience is that it especially has recently, and you really can't say otherwise.
How're you derailing the thread?
And Don't care on subclaim, No on Nameclaim.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Oh well, a few things:
You realize you're arguing against basic principles of math, right? If I give you 1000 possible claims and divide it into several groups, the number of claims is clearly smaller. There is no way this is not possible - there are not infinite superheros, even if there are quite a few.
Perhaps you're minorly annoyed as scum when claiming comes up - I am more than minorly annoyed.
You must be playing with different people than I am, honestly; I'm not seeing that at all. I'm seeing the exact progression I described above.
1. Someone does something scummy.
2. Discussion/votes.
3. They full-claim.
4. They get lynched or they don't.
I'd be quite suspicious of people drawing up cases otherwise, frankly. By inserting subclaim information pre-emptively, #3 becomes harder to fake; not a method to attack people by - unless there's a gaping discrepency (Krobelus, anyone?).
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29