Sigh..Kman. I don't mean this offensively, but, you are woefully naive. I wish I would have seen more of this newbness out of you yesterday, and less scumminess. Then I could have investigated someone else.
Abso is asserting that I'm scum, which would allow me to skate a Cop claim because I'll always(except in the case of Neutrals, which there are obviously going to be some of, but, he's not thinking about that) be able to provide accurate results. If I'm scum and you're not, odds are that you are going to be town. And if you're not, you're not going to do anything to discourage me saying that you are.
But ultimately, it's all irrelevant, for reasons explained by multiple people.
i know im naive and i know i suck at mafia but i still like it.
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and look around every once and a while you could miss it. - ferris bueller
Do you even know what a naive cop is? They AREN'T cops. They only get innocent results, making them worse than a vanilla townie because they mislead the town into thinking people are cleared when they aren't. It is very difficult for a role to NOT be "strictly better" than a role that is all downside.
This alone, I never considered. Yes, you are right. Naive Cops are worse than even a vanilla townie, and in that regard, it would not be so far fetched for a normal cop to exist as well.
TheFooFish's explanation also fixes my perspective. Insane Asylum Mafia had this whole scenario, only backwards. The one who claimed had nothing to lose and everything to gain. Cyan here had much to lose and little to gain aside from heavy townie points.
I was tunnel-sighted in seeing Cyan lead a bandwagon against someone who ended up being town, claim cop, and then remove any ability for us to verify this.
Cyan's claim seemed more legitimate at the time purely because of flavor reasons. "The Pope" did not exist on any character list I could find whereas Rakshas did.
When Apokalypse Kid ended up being town, and a gimped-cop (so I saw) no less, I believed Cyan even less. That should explain the 'magical' reason I changed my opinion.
Rakshas had flavor that he was part of the Kushan. Cyan mentioned that his goal to kill Griffith was the same as the Kushan and thus hinted his knowledge of the Kushan win condition. As such, I was dead-set on the belief that Cyan was Kushan especially considering that the flavor of the Griffith places him at town.
I finally realized that Cyan's strength was that his powerful role is justified by the drawback of having to get a townie killed, and a very flavor-strong townie at that.
Even so, I cede this one-man crusade. I have no other evidence against Cyan aside from fruitless charges of "he could have been that ballsy" or tidbits of flavor I read on Wikipedia on a universe I knew nothing about.
Even so, I cede this one-man crusade. I have no other evidence against Cyan aside from fruitless charges of "he could have been that ballsy" or tidbits of flavor I read on Wikipedia on a universe I knew nothing about.
If this was all the information you had and you knew it, why did you try? This is incredibly scummy, to admit that you really were reaching, and that your points were "fruitless" as you put it. Ugh.
Unvote, Vote Absolutionis
This game has way too many people that spew scummy vibes. I don't know what to think right now.
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If this was all the information you had and you knew it, why did you try? This is incredibly scummy, to admit that you really were reaching, and that your points were "fruitless" as you put it. Ugh.
I simply deny the ignorance that is necessary for this whole argument being based on the strictly-better argument. You don't even consider the other scum tells like "appeal to ridicule" anymore. Just as if the PBPA was just ornament making your case look somewhat justified.
Once it has been established that Cyan is a cop, that role tends to trump out any scum-tells.
The way you backpedal from your zealous case to total retraction of all points is a point against you on its own.
Would you suggest that I continue my one-man crusade against Cyan now convinced that he is not scum? Note that people's stances can change.
I did here what I did in Newbie #13. I focused on a few scum tells and ignored the greater picture.
I still am convinced that Cyan acted scummy with his attitude of invulnerability and repetitive appeals to ridicule. His actions on getting a townie lynched didn't do much to improve his image in my view.
However, seeing as how I now am convinced that Cyan's role claim is believable, that alone trumps any scumminess I found from him.
Continuing to press on against Cyan will yield no role claim, no name claim, and is against my opinion of him right now and thus has little purpose.
I thought I saw scum and was mistaken.
Man, I don't think I've ever felt worse for voting someone.
...
Vote Stands anyway, even just that last post alone is scummy. I particularly like where you reference a newb game you were in(where you were town, I'm sure) as a point in your defense where you did the same thing.
This alone, I never considered. Yes, you are right. Naive Cops are worse than even a vanilla townie, and in that regard, it would not be so far fetched for a normal cop to exist as well.
TheFooFish's explanation also fixes my perspective. Insane Asylum Mafia had this whole scenario, only backwards. The one who claimed had nothing to lose and everything to gain. Cyan here had much to lose and little to gain aside from heavy townie points.
I was tunnel-sighted in seeing Cyan lead a bandwagon against someone who ended up being town, claim cop, and then remove any ability for us to verify this.
Cyan's claim seemed more legitimate at the time purely because of flavor reasons. "The Pope" did not exist on any character list I could find whereas Rakshas did.
When Apokalypse Kid ended up being town, and a gimped-cop (so I saw) no less, I believed Cyan even less. That should explain the 'magical' reason I changed my opinion.
Rakshas had flavor that he was part of the Kushan. Cyan mentioned that his goal to kill Griffith was the same as the Kushan and thus hinted his knowledge of the Kushan win condition. As such, I was dead-set on the belief that Cyan was Kushan especially considering that the flavor of the Griffith places him at town.
I finally realized that Cyan's strength was that his powerful role is justified by the drawback of having to get a townie killed, and a very flavor-strong townie at that.
Even so, I cede this one-man crusade. I have no other evidence against Cyan aside from fruitless charges of "he could have been that ballsy" or tidbits of flavor I read on Wikipedia on a universe I knew nothing about.
This post came off as very insincere, unvote vote: Absolutionis.
Woof
:nono:
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You say "interesting" far to often. One could interpret this as a subtle way to push suspicion.
And I really don't have the slightest idea how you came to that conclusion about albi, so you probably should give some reasons as well, or your statements won't be worth anything more than what KoL posted.
greetings
Z
Certainly. To whit, after re-reading andelijah, I saw possible links to only two people. Of the two, albi_the_dragon is the admittedly weaker case, thanks to him having a grand total of two useless posts past the random stage in this entire game (which I pointed out, and put him in the scummy list for, in the previous game day). Those two posts, however, are interesting insofar as the possible psychology behind them. The second non-random-voting (hereafter NRV) post he makes is an overreacting self-defence against Abso calling him out over his pile-on FoS of AKid in the first NRV post he makes. There is literally no point to this entire post but gigantic overdefensiveness, which I felt to be unwarranted given that Abso didn't even single him out particularly. This is possibly scummy.
Then look back to abovementioned first NRV post, where he proceeds to (1) defend Catalina with a horribly vague 'learned different playstyle' excuse, (2)FOSes AKid for much the same reason FooFish and Booter allegedly voted him, while 'cautioning' the town against miscounting votes at quite a significant number away from the amount needed to lynch, and then (3) FOSes Kami of Lunacy for actually probably the least scummy post out of KoL's entire post record in this game, with nothing more than a 'your vote is baseless' -- which is patently false, since it had a base, if a highly unstable one. FooFish and andelijah himself had already previously debunked the reasoning behind that vote (which was wrong, even if andelijah turned out scum); there was little reason for albi to do the same. Unless he was (1) attempting to look more townie by debunking a plainly bad vote, or (2) displaying the same kind of overdefensiveness that he displays in his second NRV post. Which would make no sense except in defense of a comrade.
Reaching? Yes. But it's a definite possibility in my mind, only made more solid by the fact that I'd already found albi scummy yesterday.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
@kman:
....do you like acting scummy and getting lynched/investigated or something?
@DD:
What do you mean in #379 when you vote Abso for 'seeming different than you've seen him before'? I also find it uncomfortable that you feel the need to mention 'if Cyan is scum' in #392. His vanillafication is suspicious, but not overly so.
@Ximbad:
Way to vote with zero content.
@BigTime:
....you know, I'm starting to get uncomfortable with your recent posts in this game. Especially with the way you seem to be either jumping on or indicating cautious suspicion of everyone that someone else indicates suspicion of. This wouldn't be that much if not for one other thing, but combined with that other thing I'll throw an FOS: BigTime your way.
That other thing would be: what happened to your post restriction today?
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
@Gilzord and Booter:
Painting yourself brown does not help you fade into the woodwork any better.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
@BigTime:
....you know, I'm starting to get uncomfortable with your recent posts in this game. Especially with the way you seem to be either jumping on or indicating cautious suspicion of everyone that someone else indicates suspicion of. This wouldn't be that much if not for one other thing, but combined with that other thing I'll throw an FOS: BigTime your way.
That other thing would be: what happened to your post restriction today?
Foolish Mortal! My restriction happens to be limited to meeting a few posts per day! It tends to get in the way of points I try to make!
Oh, and it's not like I'm blindly casting suspicion over a ton of people. There are seriously a lot of scummy things happening in this game, and for nearly everyone I have expressed suspicion of, I have had a reason. I'm not just jumping onto people; I'm doing it with purpose.
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Thanks to THEY DID WHAT!? For the sweet banner!
Games played:3, 1 ongoing Times Town: 1, with 1 win Times Scum: 1, with 1 loss
@DD:
What do you mean in #379 when you vote Abso for 'seeming different than you've seen him before'? I also find it uncomfortable that you feel the need to mention 'if Cyan is scum' in #392. His vanillafication is suspicious, but not overly so.
I mean that usually he seems to have a very firm grasp of mafia, and is logical in the extreme (logical often to the exclusion of instinct). Other than that, it's a gut feeling, like I said.
Why does it make you uncomfortable by the mere possibility that Cyan could be scum? It's unlikely, but I was saying that even if he is, there's no reason to go after him now, because right now it's much more likely that he's just telling the truth about being a vanillified cop.
@DC: What do you think about the Absolutionis situation?
I noticed that you made a very large post concerning Albi the Dragon, and completly ignoring Abso. Now, I agree that Albi has been less than productive, but not only is he MIA, he is also a newb. So your are hunting a lurking noobish player instead of even mentioning Abso. Distraction much?
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Thanks to THEY DID WHAT!? For the sweet banner!
Games played:3, 1 ongoing Times Town: 1, with 1 win Times Scum: 1, with 1 loss
I think that it is highly relevant that DC posted and called out one person for voting with no real content, 2 people for lurking, and managed to completely avoid commenting on the one relevant situation that is going on in the game currently, instead opting to just FoS based upon nothing.
Of course, this probably only becomes relevant if Abso is scum, so, best to keep seeing where that one goes for now.
The thing is, does his supposedly less logical behaviour actually mean he's scum? If he always acts this way regardless of whether he's town or scum, then it means next to nothing and your vote is undeserved.
Gut feeling, of course, I can't say anything about.
As for the 'if Cyan is scum' thing, it's your phrasing that makes me uncomfortable. It sounds almost like a psychological plant, from which suspicion can later be generated. I found the vanillafication rather convenient as well, and was the first person to point that out, if you will note, but I wouldn't have gone so far as to blatantly state the possibility of him being amazingly gambiting scum.
@Zas:
Because you asked who I thought was possibly linked to andelijah. I present albi's case because it's more or less a follow-on to my suspicions of him yesterday, and because I'd rather keep an eye on my other suspect right now instead of giving him cause for alarm.
@Everyone, re: Abso:
In all honesty? I currently think that Abso is currently lost townie throwing sand, and Cyan is reacting in his usual fiery way. His case is horribly weak, but is not coming across as an attempt at driving a mislynch so much as it is a simple krap logick string of suspicion, which is a null tell.
The following is somewhat WIFOMy, but I feel the psychology to be correct. Mafia building a bad case know their case is bad, and unless they're really good actors it shows. Abso's case on Cyan, on the other hand, was more or less pushed to its limit in a fairly earnest way, and he backed down in a collected manner once his bad points were disproved and he found no support. This is not contingent with my psychological profile of krap wagonning scum. Just because somebody is wrong, doesn't mean they have ulterior motives.
In other words: rather than pursue the above sand-kicking, I find much more value in pursuing attachments from yesterday's posts to the two dead scum. That's why I didn't comment on the Abso wagon.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
I should probably also add that I didn't comment on Abso's initial attacks either mainly because his reason was just that bad. I've always had a distrust for meta voting in the first place, and I can honestly say that I post more in FF7 Mafia than here as well simply because (1) it's a specialty, which naturally requires more puzzling, (2) it's bigger, so there's more to read, and (3) it's just more interesting. I felt the reasoning to be so weak, in fact, that I'm surprised anyone felt the need to additionally debunk it, other than Cyan himself.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Hi. I've read along casually with this game, so I have a pretty vague idea of what's going on. I'll do my best to get a re-read in over the next couple days and jump right on in.
The following is somewhat WIFOMy, but I feel the psychology to be correct. Mafia building a bad case know their case is bad, and unless they're really good actors it shows. Abso's case on Cyan, on the other hand, was more or less pushed to its limit in a fairly earnest way, and he backed down in a collected manner once his bad points were disproved and he found no support. This is not contingent with my psychological profile of krap wagonning scum. Just because somebody is wrong, doesn't mean they have ulterior motives.
-It's nice seeing someone else who can look past actions.
Hi, I am really sorry I havent posted more, but I just replaced into FFVII mafia and I am trying to read up there. As for the ABSO situation, I feel that he is just a misguided and confused townie, not a scum.
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Quote from hotshizzle »
<hotshizle> WINE IN FRONT OF MEAL
<hotshizle> i think
WHY, kman. SHE IS MY WIFE. WHY DID YOU SLEEP WITH HER?
* Wrath_of_DoG throws water into kman's face.
That's less 'dramatic' than 'melodramatic'.
Also, @FooFish: who do you think were Alx2's partners?
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
A little follow up on my suspicions on KoL. I noted that Cyan and Minineko seemed to be connected to KoL.
Cyan: First connection. He reacted immediately against Abso after Abso had voted KoL. He said that it wasn't because of who Abso had voted, but rather the manner in which Abso had cast his vote. I tried rereading Abso's posts but couldn't find any thing hinting scum. It'd be grreat if you showed us some definitive proof of your words. Next, in Post #346, Krowzy too voted for KoL. Again, Cyan stepped in and deflected any pursue by hinting on Zrowzy's post being scummy.
Minineko: In Pg. 24, both TFF and KMan voted KoL. Then in the same page, you pointed out that this is how KoL usually plays. I checked up a bit on KoL and found that he played in Stratego mafia. A game which i noted, you weren't even in. So how did you come to the conclusion that this is KoL's usual style of playing?
For now, Vote: KoL for his sagacious "notes to self" and suspicious reasoning.
One more thing. To those fellas out there voting Abso, except Cyan. Why are you guys voting him in the first place?
Because he conceded that he made a mistake in thinking that Cyan a.k.a. Rakshas is Kushan and that he made an error in judgement? Thats harsh. I also thought that Rakshas was Kushan, until i remembered that he's the guy with the New Band of The Hawks. Anyways, i think that the recent votes against Abso were unjustified. If anything, it seemed rather opportunistic.
One more thing. To those fellas out there voting Abso, except Cyan. Why are you guys voting him in the first place?
Because he conceded that he made a mistake in thinking that Cyan a.k.a. Rakshas is Kushan and that he made an error in judgement? Thats harsh. I also thought that Rakshas was Kushan, until i remembered that he's the guy with the New Band of The Hawks. Anyways, i think that the recent votes against Abso were unjustified. If anything, it seemed rather opportunistic.
The post where he retracts everything reads like it was rewritten at least twice, most posts are only gone over for grammar (if that). What does he have to lose if he lets something slip? Going back an rereading post 3046163 it still seems to be back tracking in an attempt to get heat off of himself.
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A little follow up on my suspicions on KoL. I noted that Cyan and Minineko seemed to be connected to KoL.
Cyan: First connection. He reacted immediately against Abso after Abso had voted KoL. He said that it wasn't because of who Abso had voted, but rather the manner in which Abso had cast his vote. I tried rereading Abso's posts but couldn't find any thing hinting scum. It'd be grreat if you showed us some definitive proof of your words. Next, in Post #346, Krowzy too voted for KoL. Again, Cyan stepped in and deflected any pursue by hinting on Zrowzy's post being scummy.
Minineko: In Pg. 24, both TFF and KMan voted KoL. Then in the same page, you pointed out that this is how KoL usually plays. I checked up a bit on KoL and found that he played in Stratego mafia. A game which i noted, you weren't even in. So how did you come to the conclusion that this is KoL's usual style of playing?
For now, Vote: KoL for his sagacious "notes to self" and suspicious reasoning.
One more thing. To those fellas out there voting Abso, except Cyan. Why are you guys voting him in the first place?
Because he conceded that he made a mistake in thinking that Cyan a.k.a. Rakshas is Kushan and that he made an error in judgement? Thats harsh. I also thought that Rakshas was Kushan, until i remembered that he's the guy with the New Band of The Hawks. Anyways, i think that the recent votes against Abso were unjustified. If anything, it seemed rather opportunistic.
What is the significance of a connection between KoL and Cyan given that cyan is close enough to confirmed town as to not make a difference?
I agree that KoL's posts have been somewhat suspicious - It has seemed to me that there is a bit of a disconnect between what he has been posting and what has been going on in the game - and the "note to self" posts also don't ring true to me.
It is just odd that you would find it suspicious to see a potential connection between KoL and cyan - KoL and mineneko, definitely (as Minoneko was one of the people listed in the "note to self: townies" post) a potentially suspicious connection - but cyan?
The post where he retracts everything reads like it was rewritten at least twice, most posts are only gone over for grammar (if that). What does he have to lose if he lets something slip? Going back an rereading post 3046163 it still seems to be back tracking in an attempt to get heat off of himself.
um, townie and scum should be going to equal lengths to avoid lynching, and surely rewriting posts is a neutral tell indicative of individual play style not townie/scum status.
I know that when pressure is on me, whether townie or scum, I start to choose my words with more care and revise my posts multiple times.
What I'm saying is that while most posts aren't double-checked, most posts while under attack are, regardless of alignment.
@DD:
The thing is, does his supposedly less logical behaviour actually mean he's scum? If he always acts this way regardless of whether he's town or scum, then it means next to nothing and your vote is undeserved.
I haven't played in a game where he was scum, but I did play in one where he kept a spreadsheet and presented it in thread in an attempt to clear/incriminate people based on interactions. So my impression is that he's methodical, logical, and he came off as knowledgeable about the game, though it was also a newbie game... where there's not much metagame to know in the first place.
And considering desCoures' analysis of his behavior, and this:
KoL and mineneko, definitely (as Minoneko was one of the people listed in the "note to self: townies" post) a potentially suspicious connection - but cyan?
See 109 and 114.
Cyan, Abso's backpedal isn't much more impressive than BigTime's yesterday. There seems to be some inconcistancy in your actions.. I'm willing to buy that you're town for now.
I do not like Foo's post #356 at all. It looks like he's realizing no one is interested in Booter and switches to Kami instead.
Does anyone else find Abso's PBPA of Cyan (#373) totally ridiculous at that point? That's the longest tl;dr case I've ever seen someone make on someone they believe to be town.
I looked back over Abso's posts, and he seems different than I've seen him before. I get a gut feeling from his posts that leads me to Vote Absolutionis
Please elaborate.. how does he seem different?
Abso: Why are you still arguing against Cyan? (#383). You seem to still think he is scum.
Even so, I cede this one-man crusade. I have no other evidence against Cyan aside from fruitless charges of "he could have been that ballsy" or tidbits of flavor I read on Wikipedia on a universe I knew nothing about.
WHAT crusade?? You unvoted 100 posts ago. You make no sense.
I think Abso is looking more town than scum. Unvote
Please elaborate. First you say Abso looks scummy for no reason, and then, for no reason, he's looking more townie than scum? Please show me/us what changed your mind both times.
I'm more trying to understand the Abso situation than everything else. He votes Cyan, unvotes, doesn't think he's scum but continues to attack Cyan, then he says he abandons his crusade. That doesn't make any sense to me.
And Abso is not acting misguided or confused. He tried to do something scummy, got called on it, and backed out as gracefully as possible. But it seems awfully fake to me. You guys are giving him too much benefit of the doubt.
Some people seem to think that Abso is new to this game, but he's not. He's played as long as I have. Not as many games, but he's been around. He knows what is going on.
Does anyone else find Abso's PBPA of Cyan (#373) totally ridiculous at that point? That's the longest tl;dr case I've ever seen someone make on someone they believe to be town.
I do not recall mentioning I believed Cyan was town at the time.
@minineko:
I voted him based on gut instinct after an overview of his posts. I have said this already, and it's not really explainable any further than that.
I explained in my last post that what seems different is how logical he usually is, versus how intensely illogical he's been this game.I thought he had a firm grasp of the game, but he apparently had no idea on the power level of naive cops, and thought they were too strong to be in the same game as a full cop (his logic there just... makes no sense, and is very different from how I've seen him argue before).
And I unvoted based on desCoures' analysis of his case on Cyan (which I already said in my latest post): earnest case, seems honest in his attacks on Cyan (unfounded as they are), refuted by several people, and he backs down.
One more thing. To those fellas out there voting Abso, except Cyan. Why are you guys voting him in the first place?
Because he conceded that he made a mistake in thinking that Cyan a.k.a. Rakshas is Kushan and that he made an error in judgement? Thats harsh. I also thought that Rakshas was Kushan, until i remembered that he's the guy with the New Band of The Hawks. Anyways, i think that the recent votes against Abso were unjustified. If anything, it seemed rather opportunistic.
ZasZ234 had very legitimate points when voting for me. I do not see his actions as opportunistic.
Post 33: First post joking about god child's rant on Minineko. Post 62: Not much here. Post 76: Loaded question to Catalina. Post 86: There's a lot of text, but nothing gets said here. Post 87: Realize 86 was spam? Point 3 is totally off the mark; andelijah and Cyan later comment on this as well. Scum rarely set "traps". Post 157: Weak attack on KoL. She's going on record with these declarations, so it's not much of a reliable "tell". Scum don't like their opinions in blood. Speaks from a foregone conclusion mindset about AK "if he had...would've been better". Post 199: A very loaded question and an ad hom attack later, ZasZ has now pushed AK to 9/13 votes. Admonishing him for referencing his former game play? Bah. Post 213: Smelling blood, ZasZ now begins to push hard at AK. Couldn't be more off-base about Goatrevolt, IMO, his inquisitive nature was reading fully town at the time and even more so after Alx2's reveal as scum. Post 215: Theme stuff/weird question answered smart-alecky. Post 221: Backpedals on his attack of GR. This self-conflicting analysis of AK's claim/behavior is so scummy it hurts- almost reads like's thinking "should I push? how hard?" . Post 232: Questions AK's choice of behavior as it pertains to his role. Asks for flavor. Doesn't unvote. Post 244: Story discussion. Asks Cyan for flavor of his cop role. Post 253: Subtly casts doubt on Cyan by inquiring about the neutral portion?
Day 2
Post 330: Subtly casts doubt on Cyan again by indirectly implying the fact two people died and Cyan wasn't one of them but got 'vanillafied' was odd. Explains why he asked for Cyan's flavor, which is exactly what I feared. In Wheel Of Time mafia on MTGNews, the best-versed player of the mythos was scum and gained much trust by being able to answer flavor/story questions. Do not make this same mistake here. ZasZ is not confirmed at this time, and answering questions just because he "knows" the story is dangerous. Tosses a FoS KMan's direction (who is now a known townie). Votes KoL - again, I think the initial attack was weak, does not expand beyond "your posts are all scummy" - and discusses story/flavor and the two mafias at length. Post 332: Well isn't someone quite pleased with himself for having the flavor breakout of the game all worked out? Post 336: More story discussion. Again, be wary of ZasZ building trust for non-mafia reasons. Post 342: Replies to DC's post. These answers all seem reasonable. Post 348: Asks for flavor on vanillifcation. Calls for a mass-prod on the missing. Post 355: Rather snarky responses to Gilz and DC here, especially considering ZasZ has done plenty of subtle-suspicion pushing himself. Post 358: More flavor discussion. Post 367: Now pushing at Abso harder; not a coincidence that Cyan has promised a case forthcoming. Post 372: Tosses some more dirt on Abso. Post 378: Pushing again at Abso. His vote is still not on him, though. Why is that? Post 401: Ahh, there it is. The wagon is at full steam and ZasZ has finally made the leap. What exactly does this post mean, anyhow? I'd like to know how his admitting his case was bad is a point against him. Post 408: Responds to DC about Ande links. Jokes about BT. Tosses a little more dirt on the lurkers.
In case you hadn't guessed, as I was reading along before I was even involved in the game, ZasZ really struck me as scummy. The problem is that I always read him this way because he often asks loaded questions and has a sarcastic tone. Even with that aside, ZasZ has twice now joined a wagon as it was really picking up, also increasing the pressure placed on them in the process.
However, his lack of unvoting AK upon claim strikes me more as a townie move than a scum one. Scum are typically scared to death when they're probing around the town and smack into a power-role claim, yet he pushed for more information. His responses to DC today also read very townie. As you can see, though, I have serious questions about some of his other posts over the course of the game (the weak push at KoL [again someone else who others had talked about first], the mud-slinging at lurkers, etc above).
In all this, I don't think he's vote-worthy, but I still want to advise against utilizing him as the go-to flavor resource. Go to wikis, whatever, but don't let his increased knowledge of the source cloud your judgment; I've seen it happen before.
Now that I've been through this, it's time for an open mind and a fresh look back through the thread.
In all this, I don't think he's vote-worthy, but I still want to advise against utilizing him as the go-to flavor resource. Go to wikis, whatever, but don't let his increased knowledge of the source cloud your judgment; I've seen it happen before.
That's directed at me, isn't it? -I admit, I was on that slippery slope and not even looking at Z; I'll keep it in mind.
And for dC: Alx is good, good enough that he was near the top of my town list coming into today; so, I don't think he would have tied himself too obviously to his partners. I could see KoL being from that group. My other, lesser suspects are DD, GC, Ximbad, and Bigtime. I would be surprised if either of the first two were teamed with Alx, though the last two are possibilities.
Who cares whom KoL says is town? Does it actually mean anything? No, it doesn't.
Plus, as has been discussed so many times, quantifying why a person is town is extremely difficult. Sometimes, you just read a post and get really strong pro-town intentions out of it. DYH's post towards Zas is a perfect example of this.
There is one person currently worth voting in this game(hint: It is Absolutionis), and it's not KoL(it's still Absolutionis)
My other, lesser suspects are DD, GC, Ximbad, and Bigtime. I would be surprised if either of the first two were teamed with Alx, though the last two are possibilities.
Speaking of KoL, he really needs to stop by here.
I'm always interested when my name pops up, and I'm sure I'll hear the story in due time, but I am curious as to what your suspicions are.
Another useless post by KoL? I really don't know what to think of him at this point. It seems like he's really making an effort to stay neutral and out of the way. Has anybody played in any newb games with him? I hate to rely on meta, but it might help here.
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Games played:3, 1 ongoing Times Town: 1, with 1 win Times Scum: 1, with 1 loss
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i know im naive and i know i suck at mafia but i still like it.
and look around every once and a while you could miss it. - ferris bueller
TheFooFish's explanation also fixes my perspective. Insane Asylum Mafia had this whole scenario, only backwards. The one who claimed had nothing to lose and everything to gain. Cyan here had much to lose and little to gain aside from heavy townie points.
I was tunnel-sighted in seeing Cyan lead a bandwagon against someone who ended up being town, claim cop, and then remove any ability for us to verify this.
Cyan's claim seemed more legitimate at the time purely because of flavor reasons. "The Pope" did not exist on any character list I could find whereas Rakshas did.
When Apokalypse Kid ended up being town, and a gimped-cop (so I saw) no less, I believed Cyan even less. That should explain the 'magical' reason I changed my opinion.
Rakshas had flavor that he was part of the Kushan. Cyan mentioned that his goal to kill Griffith was the same as the Kushan and thus hinted his knowledge of the Kushan win condition. As such, I was dead-set on the belief that Cyan was Kushan especially considering that the flavor of the Griffith places him at town.
I finally realized that Cyan's strength was that his powerful role is justified by the drawback of having to get a townie killed, and a very flavor-strong townie at that.
Even so, I cede this one-man crusade. I have no other evidence against Cyan aside from fruitless charges of "he could have been that ballsy" or tidbits of flavor I read on Wikipedia on a universe I knew nothing about.
If this was all the information you had and you knew it, why did you try? This is incredibly scummy, to admit that you really were reaching, and that your points were "fruitless" as you put it. Ugh.
Unvote, Vote Absolutionis
This game has way too many people that spew scummy vibes. I don't know what to think right now.
Would you suggest that I continue my one-man crusade against Cyan now convinced that he is not scum? Note that people's stances can change.
I did here what I did in Newbie #13. I focused on a few scum tells and ignored the greater picture.
I still am convinced that Cyan acted scummy with his attitude of invulnerability and repetitive appeals to ridicule. His actions on getting a townie lynched didn't do much to improve his image in my view.
However, seeing as how I now am convinced that Cyan's role claim is believable, that alone trumps any scumminess I found from him.
Continuing to press on against Cyan will yield no role claim, no name claim, and is against my opinion of him right now and thus has little purpose.
I thought I saw scum and was mistaken.
...
Vote Stands anyway, even just that last post alone is scummy. I particularly like where you reference a newb game you were in(where you were town, I'm sure) as a point in your defense where you did the same thing.
:nono: This post came off as very insincere, unvote vote: Absolutionis.
Certainly. To whit, after re-reading andelijah, I saw possible links to only two people. Of the two, albi_the_dragon is the admittedly weaker case, thanks to him having a grand total of two useless posts past the random stage in this entire game (which I pointed out, and put him in the scummy list for, in the previous game day). Those two posts, however, are interesting insofar as the possible psychology behind them. The second non-random-voting (hereafter NRV) post he makes is an overreacting self-defence against Abso calling him out over his pile-on FoS of AKid in the first NRV post he makes. There is literally no point to this entire post but gigantic overdefensiveness, which I felt to be unwarranted given that Abso didn't even single him out particularly. This is possibly scummy.
Then look back to abovementioned first NRV post, where he proceeds to (1) defend Catalina with a horribly vague 'learned different playstyle' excuse, (2)FOSes AKid for much the same reason FooFish and Booter allegedly voted him, while 'cautioning' the town against miscounting votes at quite a significant number away from the amount needed to lynch, and then (3) FOSes Kami of Lunacy for actually probably the least scummy post out of KoL's entire post record in this game, with nothing more than a 'your vote is baseless' -- which is patently false, since it had a base, if a highly unstable one. FooFish and andelijah himself had already previously debunked the reasoning behind that vote (which was wrong, even if andelijah turned out scum); there was little reason for albi to do the same. Unless he was (1) attempting to look more townie by debunking a plainly bad vote, or (2) displaying the same kind of overdefensiveness that he displays in his second NRV post. Which would make no sense except in defense of a comrade.
Reaching? Yes. But it's a definite possibility in my mind, only made more solid by the fact that I'd already found albi scummy yesterday.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
@kman:
....do you like acting scummy and getting lynched/investigated or something?
@DD:
What do you mean in #379 when you vote Abso for 'seeming different than you've seen him before'? I also find it uncomfortable that you feel the need to mention 'if Cyan is scum' in #392. His vanillafication is suspicious, but not overly so.
@Ximbad:
Way to vote with zero content.
@BigTime:
....you know, I'm starting to get uncomfortable with your recent posts in this game. Especially with the way you seem to be either jumping on or indicating cautious suspicion of everyone that someone else indicates suspicion of. This wouldn't be that much if not for one other thing, but combined with that other thing I'll throw an FOS: BigTime your way.
That other thing would be: what happened to your post restriction today?
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Also:
@Gilzord and Booter:
Painting yourself brown does not help you fade into the woodwork any better.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Foolish Mortal! My restriction happens to be limited to meeting a few posts per day! It tends to get in the way of points I try to make!
Oh, and it's not like I'm blindly casting suspicion over a ton of people. There are seriously a lot of scummy things happening in this game, and for nearly everyone I have expressed suspicion of, I have had a reason. I'm not just jumping onto people; I'm doing it with purpose.
No paradise for you!
I mean that usually he seems to have a very firm grasp of mafia, and is logical in the extreme (logical often to the exclusion of instinct). Other than that, it's a gut feeling, like I said.
Why does it make you uncomfortable by the mere possibility that Cyan could be scum? It's unlikely, but I was saying that even if he is, there's no reason to go after him now, because right now it's much more likely that he's just telling the truth about being a vanillified cop.
@desCoures: What do you think of Abso?
I noticed that you made a very large post concerning Albi the Dragon, and completly ignoring Abso. Now, I agree that Albi has been less than productive, but not only is he MIA, he is also a newb. So your are hunting a lurking noobish player instead of even mentioning Abso. Distraction much?
Of course, this probably only becomes relevant if Abso is scum, so, best to keep seeing where that one goes for now.
The thing is, does his supposedly less logical behaviour actually mean he's scum? If he always acts this way regardless of whether he's town or scum, then it means next to nothing and your vote is undeserved.
Gut feeling, of course, I can't say anything about.
As for the 'if Cyan is scum' thing, it's your phrasing that makes me uncomfortable. It sounds almost like a psychological plant, from which suspicion can later be generated. I found the vanillafication rather convenient as well, and was the first person to point that out, if you will note, but I wouldn't have gone so far as to blatantly state the possibility of him being amazingly gambiting scum.
@Zas:
Because you asked who I thought was possibly linked to andelijah. I present albi's case because it's more or less a follow-on to my suspicions of him yesterday, and because I'd rather keep an eye on my other suspect right now instead of giving him cause for alarm.
@Everyone, re: Abso:
In all honesty? I currently think that Abso is currently lost townie throwing sand, and Cyan is reacting in his usual fiery way. His case is horribly weak, but is not coming across as an attempt at driving a mislynch so much as it is a simple krap logick string of suspicion, which is a null tell.
The following is somewhat WIFOMy, but I feel the psychology to be correct. Mafia building a bad case know their case is bad, and unless they're really good actors it shows. Abso's case on Cyan, on the other hand, was more or less pushed to its limit in a fairly earnest way, and he backed down in a collected manner once his bad points were disproved and he found no support. This is not contingent with my psychological profile of krap wagonning scum. Just because somebody is wrong, doesn't mean they have ulterior motives.
In other words: rather than pursue the above sand-kicking, I find much more value in pursuing attachments from yesterday's posts to the two dead scum. That's why I didn't comment on the Abso wagon.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
I should probably also add that I didn't comment on Abso's initial attacks either mainly because his reason was just that bad. I've always had a distrust for meta voting in the first place, and I can honestly say that I post more in FF7 Mafia than here as well simply because (1) it's a specialty, which naturally requires more puzzling, (2) it's bigger, so there's more to read, and (3) it's just more interesting. I felt the reasoning to be so weak, in fact, that I'm surprised anyone felt the need to additionally debunk it, other than Cyan himself.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
yes/no. i like to look scummy but i don't like the idea of lynches. OMGDOESTHISPOSTMAKEMELOOKSCUMMY?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
and look around every once and a while you could miss it. - ferris bueller
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I just played in Asylum mafia with him... where he claimed cult-leader, dooming himself. His grasp isn't that strong.
-It's nice seeing someone else who can look past actions.
and look around every once and a while you could miss it. - ferris bueller
* Wrath_of_DoG throws water into kman's face.
That.... actually reads a lot like the same kind of role and metagame unfamiliarity that could cause the exact response he has here.
That's less 'dramatic' than 'melodramatic'.
Also, @FooFish: who do you think were Alx2's partners?
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Cyan: First connection. He reacted immediately against Abso after Abso had voted KoL. He said that it wasn't because of who Abso had voted, but rather the manner in which Abso had cast his vote. I tried rereading Abso's posts but couldn't find any thing hinting scum. It'd be grreat if you showed us some definitive proof of your words. Next, in Post #346, Krowzy too voted for KoL. Again, Cyan stepped in and deflected any pursue by hinting on Zrowzy's post being scummy.
Minineko: In Pg. 24, both TFF and KMan voted KoL. Then in the same page, you pointed out that this is how KoL usually plays. I checked up a bit on KoL and found that he played in Stratego mafia. A game which i noted, you weren't even in. So how did you come to the conclusion that this is KoL's usual style of playing?
For now, Vote: KoL for his sagacious "notes to self" and suspicious reasoning.
One more thing. To those fellas out there voting Abso, except Cyan. Why are you guys voting him in the first place?
Because he conceded that he made a mistake in thinking that Cyan a.k.a. Rakshas is Kushan and that he made an error in judgement? Thats harsh. I also thought that Rakshas was Kushan, until i remembered that he's the guy with the New Band of The Hawks. Anyways, i think that the recent votes against Abso were unjustified. If anything, it seemed rather opportunistic.
What is the significance of a connection between KoL and Cyan given that cyan is close enough to confirmed town as to not make a difference?
I agree that KoL's posts have been somewhat suspicious - It has seemed to me that there is a bit of a disconnect between what he has been posting and what has been going on in the game - and the "note to self" posts also don't ring true to me.
It is just odd that you would find it suspicious to see a potential connection between KoL and cyan - KoL and mineneko, definitely (as Minoneko was one of the people listed in the "note to self: townies" post) a potentially suspicious connection - but cyan?
um, townie and scum should be going to equal lengths to avoid lynching, and surely rewriting posts is a neutral tell indicative of individual play style not townie/scum status.
I know that when pressure is on me, whether townie or scum, I start to choose my words with more care and revise my posts multiple times.
What I'm saying is that while most posts aren't double-checked, most posts while under attack are, regardless of alignment.
I haven't played in a game where he was scum, but I did play in one where he kept a spreadsheet and presented it in thread in an attempt to clear/incriminate people based on interactions. So my impression is that he's methodical, logical, and he came off as knowledgeable about the game, though it was also a newbie game... where there's not much metagame to know in the first place.
And considering desCoures' analysis of his behavior, and this:
I think Abso is looking more town than scum. Unvote
See 109 and 114.
Cyan, Abso's backpedal isn't much more impressive than BigTime's yesterday. There seems to be some inconcistancy in your actions.. I'm willing to buy that you're town for now.
I do not like Foo's post #356 at all. It looks like he's realizing no one is interested in Booter and switches to Kami instead.
Does anyone else find Abso's PBPA of Cyan (#373) totally ridiculous at that point? That's the longest tl;dr case I've ever seen someone make on someone they believe to be town.
Please elaborate.. how does he seem different?
Abso: Why are you still arguing against Cyan? (#383). You seem to still think he is scum.
WHAT crusade?? You unvoted 100 posts ago. You make no sense.
Please elaborate. First you say Abso looks scummy for no reason, and then, for no reason, he's looking more townie than scum? Please show me/us what changed your mind both times.
I'm more trying to understand the Abso situation than everything else. He votes Cyan, unvotes, doesn't think he's scum but continues to attack Cyan, then he says he abandons his crusade. That doesn't make any sense to me.
Meeeeoowwww.
And Abso is not acting misguided or confused. He tried to do something scummy, got called on it, and backed out as gracefully as possible. But it seems awfully fake to me. You guys are giving him too much benefit of the doubt.
Some people seem to think that Abso is new to this game, but he's not. He's played as long as I have. Not as many games, but he's been around. He knows what is going on.
That was back in my post #383 before DragonDart's post #392 and Cyan's post #393.
Viewpoints change.
I voted him based on gut instinct after an overview of his posts. I have said this already, and it's not really explainable any further than that.
I explained in my last post that what seems different is how logical he usually is, versus how intensely illogical he's been this game.I thought he had a firm grasp of the game, but he apparently had no idea on the power level of naive cops, and thought they were too strong to be in the same game as a full cop (his logic there just... makes no sense, and is very different from how I've seen him argue before).
And I unvoted based on desCoures' analysis of his case on Cyan (which I already said in my latest post): earnest case, seems honest in his attacks on Cyan (unfounded as they are), refuted by several people, and he backs down.
I'm talking about your reaction to BigTime's backpedal compared to Abso's backpedal.
Meow.
Post 33: First post joking about god child's rant on Minineko.
Post 62: Not much here.
Post 76: Loaded question to Catalina.
Post 86: There's a lot of text, but nothing gets said here.
Post 87: Realize 86 was spam? Point 3 is totally off the mark; andelijah and Cyan later comment on this as well. Scum rarely set "traps".
Post 157: Weak attack on KoL. She's going on record with these declarations, so it's not much of a reliable "tell". Scum don't like their opinions in blood. Speaks from a foregone conclusion mindset about AK "if he had...would've been better".
Post 199: A very loaded question and an ad hom attack later, ZasZ has now pushed AK to 9/13 votes. Admonishing him for referencing his former game play? Bah.
Post 213: Smelling blood, ZasZ now begins to push hard at AK. Couldn't be more off-base about Goatrevolt, IMO, his inquisitive nature was reading fully town at the time and even more so after Alx2's reveal as scum.
Post 215: Theme stuff/weird question answered smart-alecky.
Post 221: Backpedals on his attack of GR. This self-conflicting analysis of AK's claim/behavior is so scummy it hurts- almost reads like's thinking "should I push? how hard?" .
Post 232: Questions AK's choice of behavior as it pertains to his role. Asks for flavor. Doesn't unvote.
Post 244: Story discussion. Asks Cyan for flavor of his cop role.
Post 253: Subtly casts doubt on Cyan by inquiring about the neutral portion?
Day 2
Post 330: Subtly casts doubt on Cyan again by indirectly implying the fact two people died and Cyan wasn't one of them but got 'vanillafied' was odd. Explains why he asked for Cyan's flavor, which is exactly what I feared. In Wheel Of Time mafia on MTGNews, the best-versed player of the mythos was scum and gained much trust by being able to answer flavor/story questions. Do not make this same mistake here. ZasZ is not confirmed at this time, and answering questions just because he "knows" the story is dangerous. Tosses a FoS KMan's direction (who is now a known townie). Votes KoL - again, I think the initial attack was weak, does not expand beyond "your posts are all scummy" - and discusses story/flavor and the two mafias at length.
Post 332: Well isn't someone quite pleased with himself for having the flavor breakout of the game all worked out?
Post 336: More story discussion. Again, be wary of ZasZ building trust for non-mafia reasons.
Post 342: Replies to DC's post. These answers all seem reasonable.
Post 348: Asks for flavor on vanillifcation. Calls for a mass-prod on the missing.
Post 355: Rather snarky responses to Gilz and DC here, especially considering ZasZ has done plenty of subtle-suspicion pushing himself.
Post 358: More flavor discussion.
Post 367: Now pushing at Abso harder; not a coincidence that Cyan has promised a case forthcoming.
Post 372: Tosses some more dirt on Abso.
Post 378: Pushing again at Abso. His vote is still not on him, though. Why is that?
Post 401: Ahh, there it is. The wagon is at full steam and ZasZ has finally made the leap. What exactly does this post mean, anyhow? I'd like to know how his admitting his case was bad is a point against him.
Post 408: Responds to DC about Ande links. Jokes about BT. Tosses a little more dirt on the lurkers.
In case you hadn't guessed, as I was reading along before I was even involved in the game, ZasZ really struck me as scummy. The problem is that I always read him this way because he often asks loaded questions and has a sarcastic tone. Even with that aside, ZasZ has twice now joined a wagon as it was really picking up, also increasing the pressure placed on them in the process.
However, his lack of unvoting AK upon claim strikes me more as a townie move than a scum one. Scum are typically scared to death when they're probing around the town and smack into a power-role claim, yet he pushed for more information. His responses to DC today also read very townie. As you can see, though, I have serious questions about some of his other posts over the course of the game (the weak push at KoL [again someone else who others had talked about first], the mud-slinging at lurkers, etc above).
In all this, I don't think he's vote-worthy, but I still want to advise against utilizing him as the go-to flavor resource. Go to wikis, whatever, but don't let his increased knowledge of the source cloud your judgment; I've seen it happen before.
Now that I've been through this, it's time for an open mind and a fresh look back through the thread.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
That's directed at me, isn't it? -I admit, I was on that slippery slope and not even looking at Z; I'll keep it in mind.
And for dC: Alx is good, good enough that he was near the top of my town list coming into today; so, I don't think he would have tied himself too obviously to his partners. I could see KoL being from that group. My other, lesser suspects are DD, GC, Ximbad, and Bigtime. I would be surprised if either of the first two were teamed with Alx, though the last two are possibilities.
Speaking of KoL, he really needs to stop by here.
I think what minineko is referring to is BigTime's actions on day 1 when he abandoned the attack on catelina.
Mineneko: The difference between BigTime's withdrawal and Absolutionist's is that BigTime was not attacking a known townie. Hence different reactions.
Seriously? Is that it? I think we all expect more than this
-Seriously?
No response or explanation? Just more of the same worthless crap?
lol. i <3 you for your playstyle but i am still glad my vote is on you.
and look around every once and a while you could miss it. - ferris bueller
Plus, as has been discussed so many times, quantifying why a person is town is extremely difficult. Sometimes, you just read a post and get really strong pro-town intentions out of it. DYH's post towards Zas is a perfect example of this.
There is one person currently worth voting in this game(hint: It is Absolutionis), and it's not KoL(it's still Absolutionis)
I'm always interested when my name pops up, and I'm sure I'll hear the story in due time, but I am curious as to what your suspicions are.
Another useless post by KoL? I really don't know what to think of him at this point. It seems like he's really making an effort to stay neutral and out of the way. Has anybody played in any newb games with him? I hate to rely on meta, but it might help here.