The only real reason not to participate in such a claim is to be a sort of conscientious objector, which is really sketchy. LJ seems to be taking that position, but he has already been in a situation where he dealt with a claim like this and did not protest (if what Alx says is accurate).
So, you’re not even thinking about this for yourself? You’re going to base your decision off of what Alx is saying? Are you even reading the information in the thread or just going along for the ride? The situations were completely different.
Suddenly becoming a conscientious objector now seems awfully darn convenient. This is by far the most scummy thing in the thread so far. Vamp's whining is pretty weak as well, but we have past evidence holding against LJ.
I haven’t ‘suddenly’ done anything. This is the first time I have publicly stated my dislike for the practice, but I have discussed it with a few others in PM before. I can’t really give details as doing so would break the rules of the forum. (It involves an ongoing game.)
I fail to see why 1. is relevant at all. The commonality of the practice has nothing to do about it's effectiveness/legality. 2. is quite true however. But your opinion in this game has been more or less that you don't like it, so you're not participating. It's certainly legal, and it's all upside.
Point 1 is relevant because at the time, I wasn’t so fed up with each game starting with some player trying to out-mod the mod and try and break the game on Day One with no information. I am arguing neither the effectiveness nor the legality of the practice of crypto-claiming.
Fortunately, this is the last game that the practice will be legal.
Quote from Wrath of Dog »
Yeah, after we've all crypto-claimed already, I don't see how you guys have any actual ingame reasons why you guys won't.
I can only see it as anti-town if you guys don't want to, since you are hurting the town by not.
See it as anti-town then. That’s certainly your prerogative.
vote jerubbaal fos Alx2
Alx - You answered my questions just fine in post 165 but recanted and went with your “post restriction” answers in post 166. So, you basically broke your post restriction in 165. I wonder what the consequences of that will be.
As for jerubbaal, your barning of an argument by another player with neither first-hand knowledge of the matter nor sufficient legwork to go and look up anything seems like a lazy scum trying to smear an easy target. Also, placing the third vote - classic scum.
It is anti-town, period. You can hack about the pluses/minuses of the practice out of the thread, but in this thread, with these rules, not participating is not acceptable. Especially not participating without anything resembling an argument as to why not participating is beneficial.
Cute little counter-attack to take some well-deserved pressure off you. The first time you're confronted with your lack of participation, you deflect by suggesting that some scum are going along with the claim to seem townie. Now you try to brush it off by attacking your attackers. You've contributed exactly nothing to this thread except attempts to ignore the questions placed to you and push suspicion off on other people. Weak sauce. This feels good for day 1.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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I'm more or less quoting his reasons because, uh, they're right.
It's by far the best thing in the thread so far. Regardless of how stupid crypto might be, there's absolutely no downside, and no reason to refuse setting one up unless you're worried about getting caught in it.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
For the record, my main point on not crypto-claiming is mostly just because it's lame and I didn't want to be part of something stupid that might propogate to a standard town move. The other reasons just backed up my main point. So, I don't see why his " 1. Crypto-claiming had not become a common practice in View Askew. " is not relevant.
So jerubaal, wouldn't I be a better target then LJ if you're going on LJ suddenly becoming a conscientious objector (the main point of your attack AFAIK, based on 168)? LJ had never played a game where this was done, I've played in two and gone along with it. Wouldn't my stance be even bigger of a turn around? Also, I'll note that his barn of Alx2 (as other call it) is not really a barn. His attack was based on LJ's refusal to participate (158 he supports the claim plan, votes LJ, 168 he reiterates it) and his counter attack and dodging of questions (168 paragraph 2), while Alx2's is now based mostly on behavioural tells. This seems slightly telling to me. His attack was different, yet when called on barning, he doesn't acknowledge that his main point was different, which is the problem here. Jerubaal has echoed Alx2's attack of deflection and avoiding the questions, but his main point was the refusal, and those were tack-ons. This seems like mafia who misunderstood the main attack of Alx2's, and threw his vote on LJ for an add-on barn to push for a lynch after smelling the blood.
But more of point 1 then 2. Vote: Jerubaal.
I am not willing to crypto-claim and no one will be able to force me other wise.
Alx - You answered my questions just fine in post 165 but recanted and went with your “post restriction” answers in post 166. So, you basically broke your post restriction in 165. I wonder what the consequences of that will be.
This is classic scum play. He's not directly involved in trying to find out stuff - he's just throwing non-commital accusations with an air of indifference, hoping someone will catch it and run with it. HE'S SCUM. HE'S SCUM. HE CANNOT POSSIBLY NOT BE SCUM.
Let's barn Ljust and vote jerub for barning!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do you run skull clamp in your affinity list? Yes. Is it broken? Sure. Is it far? No, not really. Does it help you win? Most definitely.
This is the situation we are in. What is our objective as town? Winning. What's the best way to ban skull clamp? Own with it. If crypto claims aren't fair then the most logical way to ban them from this forum is mop up the mafia with them.
This is classic scum play. He's not directly involved in trying to find out stuff - he's just throwing non-commital accusations with an air of indifference, hoping someone will catch it and run with it. HE'S SCUM. HE'S SCUM. HE CANNOT POSSIBLY NOT BE SCUM.
I didn't mean that as an attack. It was merely an observation. You have played this game all along posting with a certain "restriction" then make a post that contradicts it. If there are no consequences the next time the mod visits the thread, it will indicate to me a greater possibility that you're faking your restriction and, as such, a greater possibility that you're scum. I think that's a fair observation.
You need to tell us WHICH letter it is, so you won't be free to modify it at will. Otherwise, it's worthless.
That's my point entirely.
*facepalm*
You are all not-particularly-clever. Or at least, that's the definition I'm forced to use to comply with rule 6.
So, you've got it all figured out on Day 1 and anyone that disagrees with you and sees the same behavior in your little barn jerubbaal that I see, and sees it in the same way as the case I presented, must obviously be scum? If that's not what you meant, please clarify.
Or to ask it in such a way as you can answer truthfully because of your "post restriction":
This is the way I see it. I would love to hear other players' opinions on the matter. *wink, wink*
Let's barn Ljust and vote jerub for barning!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do you run skull clamp in your affinity list? Yes. Is it broken? Sure. Is it far? No, not really. Does it help you win? Most definitely.
This is the situation we are in. What is our objective as town? Winning. What's the best way to ban skull clamp? Own with it. If crypto claims aren't fair then the most logical way to ban them from this forum is mop up the mafia with them.
One of the objectives of any game is to win, but some people don't see this as the end-all and be-all of competition. I view mafia as a game of wits (for the princess? *nod* to the death? *nod* [/Princess Bride]), a game of reactions and reading people. I play because I enjoy the game - not so I can try to outmod the mod or break the game on day 1. Thought I'd already gone over this.
I didn't mean that as an attack. It was merely an observation. You have played this game all along posting with a certain "restriction" then make a post that contradicts it. If there are no consequences the next time the mod visits the thread, it will indicate to me a greater possibility that you're faking your restriction and, as such, a greater possibility that you're scum. I think that's a fair observation.
So, basically, I asked LJustus if he's claiming scum, and in the quote above, he confirmed it. Such "observations" are classic scum play. Townies just state things clearly. HE IS SCUM.
One of the objectives of any game is to win, but some people don't see this as the end-all and be-all of competition. I view mafia as a game of wits (for the princess? *nod* to the death? *nod* [/Princess Bride]), a game of reactions and reading people. I play because I enjoy the game - not so I can try to outmod the mod or break the game on day 1. Thought I'd already gone over this.
Holy crap, the last time I heard philosophizing this bad it was from EER in newb 17. It's a game. You play games to win. If you're not playing to win, you're playing badly. That's pretty much how it goes. If you're not trying as hard as you can, it's not much of a test of skill, is it?
Do you actually have a reason not to crypto-claim, MMoD, or are you just conveniently objecting as well?
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
I have another observation for all of you who are eager to bring up the argument: "but why would the mafia refuse the crypto-claim?! They don't want to be in the minority!"
In practice, the mafia often refuse to go along with such claim plans, citing information security and whatnot, until they can find a solid claim. Take 1001 Nights mafia as a case study. Fairly early in the game, it was decided to go for a mass-name-claim. About 300 posts later, almost the entirety of the town claimed. The mafia? Not much so. Here comes post 282 of that game, summarizing the situation for posterity.
I did some research on the claims so far, though I have not found any particular reason to think there's a connection between any of them, unfortunately. I'll go ahead and put this out there for anyone who thinks they can derive useful info from it.
Cyan - The White Witch (either from The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe or from The Magician's Nephew) by C.S. Lewis in either 1950 or 1955 - defeated and killed
Azrael, jerubbaal, Vampyr - Big Brother (most likely from 1984) by George Orwell in 1949 - not defeated
carrion pigeons - Magua, from The Last of the Mohicans by James Fenimore Cooper in 1826 - defeated and killed
charm master - The Raven from The Raven (one assumes) by Edgar Allan Poe in 1845 - not defeated
Dragon Dart - Circe, from The Odyssey by Homer between 600-800BC, fully translated into English for the first time, 1903 - defeated
StormBlind - Hannibal Lecter, from Red Dragon by Thomas Harris in 1981 - defeated?
HAWEYE7 - Newt Hoenikker, from Cat's Cradle (one of the few with no other possibilities) by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. in 1963 - is he a villain? I have not read this.
Wuffles II - Satan, from Paradise Lost by John Milton in 1667 - defeated, but he's actually the protagonist
Wrath of Dog - Old Man of the Sea (I am not able to find reference to a specific book called "The Seven Voyages of Sinbad the Sailor") - defeated
Kraj - IT from A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L'Engle in 1962 - defeated
Niv - Winston Niles Rumfoord from The Sirens of Titan by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. in 1959 - not the antagonist, so hard to say that he was defeated or not
Jobie - Gérard de Villefort from The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexander Dumas in 1844 - defeated and killed, but only seems to be the antagonist at the beginning of the novel
Of all the people who agreed to claim, ONLY ONE (Kraj) was mafia. The other 4 mafiosos weaseled out under more-or-less-viable-and-or-slippery excuses. The two most vocal opponents of the mass claim? Pod and Grakthis. Both mafia. Among the townies, about 75% have claimed as soon as the plan was agreed on and only 25% held back. There you have it.
Was I in that game? No. I don't think I've ever been in a game with a Day One cryptoclaim - other than the one I modded, so that doesn't really count. You're trying to compare apples (other players) to oranges (the players in this game). As an "orange", I resent the comparison.
It is one thing to compare a player's actions from game to game he plays in, but to compare one player's action to another's in a previous game bears absolutely no weight.
However, this is irrelevant. I'm merely responding to the generic "but mafia don't want to be in the minority" sentiment that some players here use as an excuse to hold back from wagoning you. I wasn't actually talking to you.
The truth is, if in 1001 Nights Mafia the town would simply methodically lynched the players who objected to the plan one by one, they'd have won. Instead, they allowed Pod (replaced by me) to live to the endgame and lost. Because Pod, and later myself, were able to conjure some semi-plausible BS to excuse us from participating in the claim.
The mafia will take the chance of being in the minority if it benefits them. Add to this LJustus' multiple minor scumtells, and he's clearly the play.
However, this is irrelevant. I'm merely responding to the generic "but mafia don't want to be in the minority" sentiment that some players here use as an excuse to hold back from wagoning you. I wasn't actually talking to you.
The truth is, if in 1001 Nights Mafia the town would simply methodically lynched the players who objected to the plan one by one, they'd have won. Instead, they allowed Pod (replaced by me) to live to the endgame and lost. Because Pod, and later myself, were able to conjure some semi-plausible BS to excuse us from participating in the claim.
The mafia will take the chance of being in the minority if it benefits them. Add to this LJustus' multiple minor scumtells, and he's clearly the play.
Exactly. I wasn't.
And the apples/oranges comparison is completely valid. You're attempting to paint a group of people with a very broad brush - comparing them to other players in a different game. The argument holds no weight.
I'm also waiting for a reply to this point from you Alx:
Quote from me a few posts ago »
So, you've got it all figured out on Day 1 and anyone that disagrees with you and sees the same behavior in your little barn jerubbaal that I see, and sees it in the same way as the case I presented, must obviously be scum? If that's not what you meant, please clarify.
Or to ask it in such a way as you can answer truthfully because of your "post restriction":
This is the way I see it. I would love to hear other players' opinions on the matter. *wink, wink*
Holy crap, the last time I heard philosophizing this bad it was from EER in newb 17. It's a game. You play games to win. If you're not playing to win, you're playing badly. That's pretty much how it goes. If you're not trying as hard as you can, it's not much of a test of skill, is it?
This is complete and utter crap. YOU may have that philosophy, but that doesn't mean everyone does. I certainly don't. And I've stated such in multiple games before this one. I don't play games to win. I play games because of the enjoyment factor. I have one of the worst win/loss ratios of anyone on this forum and I have yet to have a game become completely unfun to me, wether I win or lose.
Unfortunately, the track record of never having a game become completely unfun is seriously becoming challenged in this game with all the talk of crypto claiming and the good and bad of it and on top of it trying to decipher Alx's truths by lying when mixed with his sarcasm. I completely admit that I'm barely reading his posts as they're not worth the effort to try to decipher.
Does anyone have a case on anyone else that isn't supported by "hey he won't crypto-claim?" If you do, please set it forth. If all the discussion is going to revolved around the colossol stupidity that is crypto-claiming, I have little else to say or contribute.
I have another observation for all of you who are eager to bring up the argument: "but why would the mafia refuse the crypto-claim?! They don't want to be in the minority!"
In practice, the mafia often refuse to go along with such claim plans, citing information security and whatnot, until they can find a solid claim. Take 1001 Nights mafia as a case study. Fairly early in the game, it was decided to go for a mass-name-claim. About 300 posts later, almost the entirety of the town claimed. The mafia? Not much so. Here comes post 282 of that game, summarizing the situation for posterity.
Of all the people who agreed to claim, ONLY ONE (Kraj) was mafia. The other 4 mafiosos weaseled out under more-or-less-viable-and-or-slippery excuses. The two most vocal opponents of the mass claim? Pod and Grakthis. Both mafia. Among the townies, about 75% have claimed as soon as the plan was agreed on and only 25% held back. There you have it.
So you're banking on the actions of other people in other games to prove your point?
Do you not realize that people have these things called opinions and they will vary from one person to another? Just because player x, y and z did it in that game, you theorize that player g, h, and i will do it here? You know if that was the case, why wouldn't everyone do in every game so that there is always the exact same response and then there is no chance or luck or randomness in playing the game. It's all predetermined.
When there's something more intelligent that "hurr, hurr, crypto-claiming ftw cuz it's easy" then I'll be in on the conversation.
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PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Sneaky, you seem to be confusing possibility with probability. Everything is possible, including but not limited to flying monkeys. Not everything is probable.
I also like it how Vampyr claims he's not reading my posts, yet immediately proceeds to prove he does.
Sneaky, you seem to be confusing possibility with probability. Everything is possible, including but not limited to flying monkeys. Not everything is probable.
I also like it how Vampyr claims he's not reading my posts, yet immediately proceeds to prove he does.
Hey, nice mischaracterization there. I didn't claim I wasn't reading your posts. I said I was barely reading your posts. As in I'm doing absolutely no analyzation on them because there's too much garbage to wade through. It does not preclude me from reading and understanding them at face value and trying to show where your hubris is blinding you.
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Current Soul Collector count: 184
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
No I don't think I am. I do think you are confusing what you claim to be "evident" with what is currently just a "possibly". For quite some time, you have been very confident about that the two you fingered must be scum; even go so far to not leave any possibility for any alternative. I, on the other hand, don't see how your current case convincingly supports these kind of definite claims.
Hi sneaky.
I have recently been a mafioso in Random 3 and 1001 Nights. In both those games I have survived for a total of 18 days (8+10), and in the latter I have in fact been the sole survivor. Add to this little tidbits like Cat Mafia (survived as a mafioso to the endgame), and you can see that I'm pretty good at adopting a mafia mentality. As a result, I became slightly better at identifying said mentality.
Everything LJustus did so far in this game indicates a mafia mentality.
- the refusal to acro-claim itself
- the way he presented his reasons
- the way he semi-deflected attacks to "but people who claimed could be scum too!"
- the way he wavered between suspecting me and labeling me stubborn.
- the way he voted for Jerubbaal (it's a known mafia trick to vote not for your accuser, but for the person who backs your accuser. It doesn't look like an OMGUS, an makes other players wary of joining the accuser)
- the way he gently probed at my "alleged posting restriction" and "WTF, did Alx2 just claim scum?", asking those questions at no-one in particular.
There are more, but the bottom line, he's acting just like the mafia version of me. It takes one to know one. The odds in favor of him actually being mafia are overwhelming.
I think everyone needs to post which letter their acronym claim is. I assumed we needed to do the first letter, so I did it that way and constructed it to avoid easy decoding. If someone needs to uncode their claim later, an "Oh, by the way, I used the third letter of each" response should not be acceptable, as it opens more possible claims for scum (the limiting of which is the entire point of the cryptoclaim).
Frankly I'm very confused with the game state at the moment. I've seen Alx push ridiculously flimsy cases (even more flimsy than this one) with absolute assuredness (see his attacks on DYH in Miller's Crossing for an example) as town before. But I've seen him do it as scum as well...
I do however, think it's anti-town not to be participating in the cryptoclaim at this point. I can understand being opposed to cryptoclaims in spirit (as am I). But whether or not you find it ethical is irrelevant if you are town, because you are not a team of one. The majority clearly approves of the claim, it is not against the rules, it limits the options of the scum, and it should be followed through on. By everyone. Period.
It isn't the be all and end all of the game. It would allow us to move on to more important things, while providing a clear benefit later on at no cost. "I don't feel like it" is not a valid response to oppose it, no matter how strongly you feel.
I think the holdouts need to write up a cryptoclaim. Then we can get on with the meat of the game. The cryptoclaim doesn't end the game, or create a vast unfair advantage, and bickering over it is getting really tiresome.
I have to agree with DragonDart about the current situation. While I also had hesitations about the cryptoclaim thing initially and while I still don't feel it fits the intended flavor of the Mafia game, I did partake in it and I do agree that because a majority of the town has jumped to that side, it would be a pro-town action for the others to also follow regardless of their personal opinion. I think it's time for the squeeking to stop and - unless some new arguments can still be made about the issue - we should move forward in our conversation and not rehash the general crypto discussion over and over again.
I have recently been a mafioso in Random 3 and 1001 Nights. In both those games I have survived for a total of 18 days (8+10), and in the latter I have in fact been the sole survivor. Add to this little tidbits like Cat Mafia (survived as a mafioso to the endgame), and you can see that I'm pretty good at adopting a mafia mentality. As a result, I became slightly better at identifying said mentality.
Everything LJustus did so far in this game indicates a mafia mentality.
- the refusal to acro-claim itself
- the way he presented his reasons
- the way he semi-deflected attacks to "but people who claimed could be scum too!"
- the way he wavered between suspecting me and labeling me stubborn.
- the way he voted for Jerubbaal (it's a known mafia trick to vote not for your accuser, but for the person who backs your accuser. It doesn't look like an OMGUS, an makes other players wary of joining the accuser)
- the way he gently probed at my "alleged posting restriction" and "WTF, did Alx2 just claim scum?", asking those questions at no-one in particular.
There are more, but the bottom line, he's acting just like the mafia version of me. It takes one to know one. The odds in favor of him actually being mafia are overwhelming.
Since when do all scum act alike? Actually, as scum I have a feeling this list would peg me as a townie, just because that is my general playstyle as scum, and its usually go along with the town, and try not to deflect much, rather just let it fade away. As far as that fake OMGUS vote, its still total BS if there is no case behind it, and I think there is a decent case behind it, so it isnt OMGUS. (Actually a problem with the term OMGUS is that people now interprit that as voting the player back, even with a case. However, the term was originated for no case intended, just a vote back in spite, which is scummy. If you add a case to your vote, it should never be considered a bad OMGUS vote, unless the case sucks, which is then a problem in it self) As for a crypto claim... Fine, you can have mine, although I am very against it.
IHCCBIWCIAFTIAMWSSHWAMC-first letter, 94 letters.
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Quote from hotshizzle »
<hotshizle> WINE IN FRONT OF MEAL
<hotshizle> i think
What's there to respond? There is no actual question in said post, merely some amount of weaseling out using semantical differences. Now, LJustus' turn please.
What's there to respond? There is no actual question in said post, merely some amount of weaseling out using semantical differences. Now, LJustus' turn please.
Just because there is a lack of a question does not preclude you from addressing the fact you've been accused of someone. Please see the Axelrod/Spoon pursuit of Tiax in Matrix mafia.
Tiax accused you of mischaracterization. Please respond to that.
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Games finished:17
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Matrix Mafia Town MVP
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Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
You threw your arms around in an "oy vey" gesture and lamented how you're "barely reading my posts" because of whatever.
You then proceeded to prove you do read my posts and comprehend them quite well.
Therefore, the "oy vey" gesture and the lament are insincere, and are merely tools to discredit me and hopefully make other people jump on the "yeah, I'm not reading his posts too" wagon.
As for the "barely reading your posts", I can understand the sentiment.
- You're pride blinds you to the possibility that you're wrong.
- Your "post restriction" makes everyone else work doubly hard to decipher what it is you're trying to say.
- You refuse to acknowledge the answers to your arguments. (See "pride" above.)
I'm curious as to whether you're trying to point out the fact that Vampyr dropped the "Tiax" schtick for that post.
No, I'm curious as to why you haven't pointed out the fact that Vampyr dropped the "Tiax" schtick for that post as soon as it happened. You seem to be very "perceptive" to catch things that discredit people ... but only the people you need to be discredited. This is a clear indication of a scum mentality.
Quote from LJustus »
You're pride blinds you to the possibility that you're wrong.
As I recall, you're FOSing me. This would indicate you genuinely believe I'm scum. This would indicate there is no "pride" involved, just scummy tactics on my part. Also, I can't possibly be "wrong" as scum, since I'd know your alignment for sure. You're just throwing everything at me to discredit me.
You're playing both the "pride" and "being wrong" card, and the "scummy" card - eventhough they are mutually exclusive.
Alx, you've gone out of the way to point out your posting restriction. From the beginning I've viewed Vampyr's play as probable roleplay. I could cite another example of a player doing this, but again, it would involve discussing an ongoing game. If you have an example of Vampyr saying "tiax has to post like this" or sometihng to that effect, please do.
As far as pride vs. scummy: I see both as possibilities. Also, scum can be prideful, so I don't really see the two as mutually exclusive. Also, an FoS doesn't mean that I necessarily think you are scum. It means that I suspect you may be scum. (That's why it's called Finger of Suspicion. :teach:) As for jerubbaal, I voted him because I believe he is scum. Subtle yet meaningful distinction.
As far as pride vs. scummy: I see both as possibilities. Also, scum can be prideful, so I don't really see the two as mutually exclusive. Also, an FoS doesn't mean that I necessarily think you are scum. It means that I suspect you may be scum. (That's why it's called Finger of Suspicion. :teach:) As for jerubbaal, I voted him because I believe he is scum. Subtle yet meaningful distinction.
Yay, more crappy philosophizing to to explain away dodgy voting practices. The fluff spouting continues.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
I could cite another example of a player doing this.
Aha. So you see citing examples of players in a different game as valid tools in a game of mafia. But only as long as it benefits you. Otherwise, you go all Emo on us and give the sensitive speech about comparing apples to oranges and how you resent being an orange.
TO THE REST OF THE PLAYERS: LJustus have been spouting one contradiction after the other.
- He's against comparing to other games ... no, wait, as far as Vampyr goes, he could cite an example from another game.
- He hates acroclaiming as a tool ... doesn't stop it when in his ultimate power.
- He is very "perceptive" to note me breaking an "alleged post restriction", ignores Vampyr "because he was just roleplaying".
Yay, more crappy philosophizing to to explain away dodgy voting practices. The fluff spouting continues.
Dodgy voting? I'm quite content with my vote. You are scum barning someone else's attack of what you see as an easy target. The problem is you've chosen the wrong target and the wrong manner in which to attack said target.
Voting for the second person on your wagon is a typical scum tactic. It scares people away from joining the wagon, has a good chance of creating a counterwagon, and doesn't look like an OMGUS - eventhough it really is.
Being the third person to vote for a player is also a pretty decent scum tell. Puts some pressure on the player voted for - especially in a mini - without appearing overly aggressive. The OMGUS factor has been addressed. If I dind't have reasons to vote jerubbaal, it would be OMGUS. As I have presented reasons for my vote, which other players have agreed with, some so much that they also felt that voting jerubbaal was correct, the vote cannot be classified as OMGUS.
You keep bringing up arguments that have already been answered. I would like for you to address why. (Note, this is not a direct question, but an opportunity to explain your actions.)
Being the third person to vote for a player is also a pretty decent scum tell. Puts some pressure on the player voted for - especially in a mini - without appearing overly aggressive.
And are you, pray tell, basing this on ... experience of past games!?!?! Are you ... comparing apples to oranges!? Hypocritical and scummy. Given your previous act, you shouldn't be allowed to use your mafia experience at all to point out anything. Because according to you, everyone is different, and, everything is apples and oranges.
Quote from LJustus »
The OMGUS factor has been addressed. If I dind't have reasons to vote jerubbaal, it would be OMGUS. As I have presented reasons for my vote, which other players have agreed with, some so much that they also felt that voting jerubbaal was correct, the vote cannot be classified as OMGUS.
Your reasons to vote him are "oh look, he's voting me for bad reasons". Which is all wrong, since virtually every reason to vote for you would be a good one. What on earth have you done in this game that's not scummy?
Also, I love the "reverse barning" in the last sentence.
And he's not the 3rd vote, he's the second. We definitely need more votes on you.
You keep bringing up arguments that have already been answered by generic philosophizing and sophistry. I would like for you to address why.
And are you, pray tell, basing this on ... experience of past games!?!?! Are you ... comparing apples to oranges!? Hypocritical and scummy. Given your previous act, you shouldn't be allowed to use your mafia experience at all to point out anything. Because according to you, everyone is different, and, everything is apples and oranges.
It's hard to take you seriously when you make exaggerated statments like this. My pointing out a classic scum tell is not the same as you trying to characterize one of group of players' actions and reactions to a completely different group of players. It's just not.
Your reasons to vote him are "oh look, he's voting me for bad reasons". Which is all wrong, since virtually every reason to vote for you would be a good one. What on earth have you done in this game that's not scummy?
Also, I love the "reverse barning" in the last sentence.
And he's not the 3rd vote, he's the second. We definitely need more votes on you.
No, my reason for voting him is that I believe he is scum. At the time jerubbaal placed his vote, he was the third vote. The first was MMoD (random vote still on from the beginning of the game), then you, then jerubbaal.
Quote hacked for smearing.
Indeed.
Quote from DragonDart »
Dagger has not posted in five days. Has he already gotten a mod prod?
Quote from StromBlind, post 201 »
Sent prod out on Dagger.
Got anything else to add to the game other than that?
It's hard to take you seriously when you make exaggerated statments like this. My pointing out a classic scum tell is not the same as you trying to characterize one of group of players' actions and reactions to a completely different group of players. It's just not.
It is the same because the "classic scumtell" is presumably committed by other players who are not in this game. You emotional speech about apples and oranges was revealed as sheer emotional manipulation, since you don't believe in it yourself.
By the way, who at this time still hasn't cryptoclaimed yet? I sort of lost track. Do only Vampyre, MMOD and WOD still hold out?
No, it's Vampyr, MMOD and LJustus. The latter cryptoclaimed, but then went on to the "nyah-nyah, I'm not going to tell you which letter it is" happy dance, which makes his claim worthless.
The only way to get something out of him is to wagon him into a REAL claim.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
There are no sane people, only misdiagnozed ones.
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I can only see it as anti-town if you guys don't want to, since you are hurting the town by not.
So, you’re not even thinking about this for yourself? You’re going to base your decision off of what Alx is saying? Are you even reading the information in the thread or just going along for the ride? The situations were completely different.
I haven’t ‘suddenly’ done anything. This is the first time I have publicly stated my dislike for the practice, but I have discussed it with a few others in PM before. I can’t really give details as doing so would break the rules of the forum. (It involves an ongoing game.)
Point 1 is relevant because at the time, I wasn’t so fed up with each game starting with some player trying to out-mod the mod and try and break the game on Day One with no information. I am arguing neither the effectiveness nor the legality of the practice of crypto-claiming.
Fortunately, this is the last game that the practice will be legal.
See it as anti-town then. That’s certainly your prerogative.
vote jerubbaal
fos Alx2
Alx - You answered my questions just fine in post 165 but recanted and went with your “post restriction” answers in post 166. So, you basically broke your post restriction in 165. I wonder what the consequences of that will be.
As for jerubbaal, your barning of an argument by another player with neither first-hand knowledge of the matter nor sufficient legwork to go and look up anything seems like a lazy scum trying to smear an easy target. Also, placing the third vote - classic scum.
Cute little counter-attack to take some well-deserved pressure off you. The first time you're confronted with your lack of participation, you deflect by suggesting that some scum are going along with the claim to seem townie. Now you try to brush it off by attacking your attackers. You've contributed exactly nothing to this thread except attempts to ignore the questions placed to you and push suspicion off on other people. Weak sauce. This feels good for day 1.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
Onwuouiahtrfrimohnheuooohohsboonnhrmsheefaonhluorotshhhsiooahoboyhonanhaufu
75 words, 319 letters
Didn't use the first letter in the word.
Now, I'm going to have to start a SSOD to keep this cryptoclaim so when y'all lynch me, I can post it and laugh at your monkey butts.
It's by far the best thing in the thread so far. Regardless of how stupid crypto might be, there's absolutely no downside, and no reason to refuse setting one up unless you're worried about getting caught in it.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
So jerubaal, wouldn't I be a better target then LJ if you're going on LJ suddenly becoming a conscientious objector (the main point of your attack AFAIK, based on 168)? LJ had never played a game where this was done, I've played in two and gone along with it. Wouldn't my stance be even bigger of a turn around? Also, I'll note that his barn of Alx2 (as other call it) is not really a barn. His attack was based on LJ's refusal to participate (158 he supports the claim plan, votes LJ, 168 he reiterates it) and his counter attack and dodging of questions (168 paragraph 2), while Alx2's is now based mostly on behavioural tells. This seems slightly telling to me. His attack was different, yet when called on barning, he doesn't acknowledge that his main point was different, which is the problem here. Jerubaal has echoed Alx2's attack of deflection and avoiding the questions, but his main point was the refusal, and those were tack-ons. This seems like mafia who misunderstood the main attack of Alx2's, and threw his vote on LJ for an add-on barn to push for a lynch after smelling the blood.
But more of point 1 then 2. Vote: Jerubaal.
I am not willing to crypto-claim and no one will be able to force me other wise.
This is classic scum play. He's not directly involved in trying to find out stuff - he's just throwing non-commital accusations with an air of indifference, hoping someone will catch it and run with it. HE'S SCUM. HE'S SCUM. HE CANNOT POSSIBLY NOT BE SCUM.
You need to tell us WHICH letter it is, so you won't be free to modify it at will. Otherwise, it's worthless.
*facepalm*
You are all not-particularly-clever. Or at least, that's the definition I'm forced to use to comply with rule 6.
Do you run skull clamp in your affinity list? Yes. Is it broken? Sure. Is it far? No, not really. Does it help you win? Most definitely.
This is the situation we are in. What is our objective as town? Winning. What's the best way to ban skull clamp? Own with it. If crypto claims aren't fair then the most logical way to ban them from this forum is mop up the mafia with them.
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
I didn't mean that as an attack. It was merely an observation. You have played this game all along posting with a certain "restriction" then make a post that contradicts it. If there are no consequences the next time the mod visits the thread, it will indicate to me a greater possibility that you're faking your restriction and, as such, a greater possibility that you're scum. I think that's a fair observation.
That's my point entirely.
So, you've got it all figured out on Day 1 and anyone that disagrees with you and sees the same behavior in your little barn jerubbaal that I see, and sees it in the same way as the case I presented, must obviously be scum? If that's not what you meant, please clarify.
Or to ask it in such a way as you can answer truthfully because of your "post restriction":
This is the way I see it. I would love to hear other players' opinions on the matter. *wink, wink*
One of the objectives of any game is to win, but some people don't see this as the end-all and be-all of competition. I view mafia as a game of wits (for the princess? *nod* to the death? *nod* [/Princess Bride]), a game of reactions and reading people. I play because I enjoy the game - not so I can try to outmod the mod or break the game on day 1. Thought I'd already gone over this.
So, basically, I asked LJustus if he's claiming scum, and in the quote above, he confirmed it. Such "observations" are classic scum play. Townies just state things clearly. HE IS SCUM.
Do you actually have a reason not to crypto-claim, MMoD, or are you just conveniently objecting as well?
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
In practice, the mafia often refuse to go along with such claim plans, citing information security and whatnot, until they can find a solid claim. Take 1001 Nights mafia as a case study. Fairly early in the game, it was decided to go for a mass-name-claim. About 300 posts later, almost the entirety of the town claimed. The mafia? Not much so. Here comes post 282 of that game, summarizing the situation for posterity.
Of all the people who agreed to claim, ONLY ONE (Kraj) was mafia. The other 4 mafiosos weaseled out under more-or-less-viable-and-or-slippery excuses. The two most vocal opponents of the mass claim? Pod and Grakthis. Both mafia. Among the townies, about 75% have claimed as soon as the plan was agreed on and only 25% held back. There you have it.
It is one thing to compare a player's actions from game to game he plays in, but to compare one player's action to another's in a previous game bears absolutely no weight.
However, this is irrelevant. I'm merely responding to the generic "but mafia don't want to be in the minority" sentiment that some players here use as an excuse to hold back from wagoning you. I wasn't actually talking to you.
The truth is, if in 1001 Nights Mafia the town would simply methodically lynched the players who objected to the plan one by one, they'd have won. Instead, they allowed Pod (replaced by me) to live to the endgame and lost. Because Pod, and later myself, were able to conjure some semi-plausible BS to excuse us from participating in the claim.
The mafia will take the chance of being in the minority if it benefits them. Add to this LJustus' multiple minor scumtells, and he's clearly the play.
And the apples/oranges comparison is completely valid. You're attempting to paint a group of people with a very broad brush - comparing them to other players in a different game. The argument holds no weight.
I'm also waiting for a reply to this point from you Alx:
This is complete and utter crap. YOU may have that philosophy, but that doesn't mean everyone does. I certainly don't. And I've stated such in multiple games before this one. I don't play games to win. I play games because of the enjoyment factor. I have one of the worst win/loss ratios of anyone on this forum and I have yet to have a game become completely unfun to me, wether I win or lose.
Unfortunately, the track record of never having a game become completely unfun is seriously becoming challenged in this game with all the talk of crypto claiming and the good and bad of it and on top of it trying to decipher Alx's truths by lying when mixed with his sarcasm. I completely admit that I'm barely reading his posts as they're not worth the effort to try to decipher.
Does anyone have a case on anyone else that isn't supported by "hey he won't crypto-claim?" If you do, please set it forth. If all the discussion is going to revolved around the colossol stupidity that is crypto-claiming, I have little else to say or contribute.
So you're banking on the actions of other people in other games to prove your point?
Do you not realize that people have these things called opinions and they will vary from one person to another? Just because player x, y and z did it in that game, you theorize that player g, h, and i will do it here? You know if that was the case, why wouldn't everyone do in every game so that there is always the exact same response and then there is no chance or luck or randomness in playing the game. It's all predetermined.
When there's something more intelligent that "hurr, hurr, crypto-claiming ftw cuz it's easy" then I'll be in on the conversation.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
I also like it how Vampyr claims he's not reading my posts, yet immediately proceeds to prove he does.
Hey, nice mischaracterization there. I didn't claim I wasn't reading your posts. I said I was barely reading your posts. As in I'm doing absolutely no analyzation on them because there's too much garbage to wade through. It does not preclude me from reading and understanding them at face value and trying to show where your hubris is blinding you.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Hi sneaky.
I have recently been a mafioso in Random 3 and 1001 Nights. In both those games I have survived for a total of 18 days (8+10), and in the latter I have in fact been the sole survivor. Add to this little tidbits like Cat Mafia (survived as a mafioso to the endgame), and you can see that I'm pretty good at adopting a mafia mentality. As a result, I became slightly better at identifying said mentality.
Everything LJustus did so far in this game indicates a mafia mentality.
- the refusal to acro-claim itself
- the way he presented his reasons
- the way he semi-deflected attacks to "but people who claimed could be scum too!"
- the way he wavered between suspecting me and labeling me stubborn.
- the way he voted for Jerubbaal (it's a known mafia trick to vote not for your accuser, but for the person who backs your accuser. It doesn't look like an OMGUS, an makes other players wary of joining the accuser)
- the way he gently probed at my "alleged posting restriction" and "WTF, did Alx2 just claim scum?", asking those questions at no-one in particular.
There are more, but the bottom line, he's acting just like the mafia version of me. It takes one to know one. The odds in favor of him actually being mafia are overwhelming.
Frankly I'm very confused with the game state at the moment. I've seen Alx push ridiculously flimsy cases (even more flimsy than this one) with absolute assuredness (see his attacks on DYH in Miller's Crossing for an example) as town before. But I've seen him do it as scum as well...
I do however, think it's anti-town not to be participating in the cryptoclaim at this point. I can understand being opposed to cryptoclaims in spirit (as am I). But whether or not you find it ethical is irrelevant if you are town, because you are not a team of one. The majority clearly approves of the claim, it is not against the rules, it limits the options of the scum, and it should be followed through on. By everyone. Period.
It isn't the be all and end all of the game. It would allow us to move on to more important things, while providing a clear benefit later on at no cost. "I don't feel like it" is not a valid response to oppose it, no matter how strongly you feel.
I think the holdouts need to write up a cryptoclaim. Then we can get on with the meat of the game. The cryptoclaim doesn't end the game, or create a vast unfair advantage, and bickering over it is getting really tiresome.
IHCCBIWCIAFTIAMWSSHWAMC-first letter, 94 letters.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
What do you think about this post?
Hey Alx,
How about responding to this post.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Just because there is a lack of a question does not preclude you from addressing the fact you've been accused of someone. Please see the Axelrod/Spoon pursuit of Tiax in Matrix mafia.
Tiax accused you of mischaracterization. Please respond to that.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
You then proceeded to prove you do read my posts and comprehend them quite well.
Therefore, the "oy vey" gesture and the lament are insincere, and are merely tools to discredit me and hopefully make other people jump on the "yeah, I'm not reading his posts too" wagon.
I agree with much of what was said in that post.
I'm curious as to whether you're trying to point out the fact that Vampyr dropped the "Tiax" schtick for that post.
- You're pride blinds you to the possibility that you're wrong.
- Your "post restriction" makes everyone else work doubly hard to decipher what it is you're trying to say.
- You refuse to acknowledge the answers to your arguments. (See "pride" above.)
No, I'm curious as to why you haven't pointed out the fact that Vampyr dropped the "Tiax" schtick for that post as soon as it happened. You seem to be very "perceptive" to catch things that discredit people ... but only the people you need to be discredited. This is a clear indication of a scum mentality.
As I recall, you're FOSing me. This would indicate you genuinely believe I'm scum. This would indicate there is no "pride" involved, just scummy tactics on my part. Also, I can't possibly be "wrong" as scum, since I'd know your alignment for sure. You're just throwing everything at me to discredit me.
You're playing both the "pride" and "being wrong" card, and the "scummy" card - eventhough they are mutually exclusive.
As far as pride vs. scummy: I see both as possibilities. Also, scum can be prideful, so I don't really see the two as mutually exclusive. Also, an FoS doesn't mean that I necessarily think you are scum. It means that I suspect you may be scum. (That's why it's called Finger of Suspicion. :teach:) As for jerubbaal, I voted him because I believe he is scum. Subtle yet meaningful distinction.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
TO THE REST OF THE PLAYERS: LJustus have been spouting one contradiction after the other.
- He's against comparing to other games ... no, wait, as far as Vampyr goes, he could cite an example from another game.
- He hates acroclaiming as a tool ... doesn't stop it when in his ultimate power.
- He is very "perceptive" to note me breaking an "alleged post restriction", ignores Vampyr "because he was just roleplaying".
Also,
Dodgy voting? I'm quite content with my vote. You are scum barning someone else's attack of what you see as an easy target. The problem is you've chosen the wrong target and the wrong manner in which to attack said target.
You keep bringing up arguments that have already been answered. I would like for you to address why. (Note, this is not a direct question, but an opportunity to explain your actions.)
Your reasons to vote him are "oh look, he's voting me for bad reasons". Which is all wrong, since virtually every reason to vote for you would be a good one. What on earth have you done in this game that's not scummy?
Also, I love the "reverse barning" in the last sentence.
And he's not the 3rd vote, he's the second. We definitely need more votes on you.
Quote hacked for truthery.
It's hard to take you seriously when you make exaggerated statments like this. My pointing out a classic scum tell is not the same as you trying to characterize one of group of players' actions and reactions to a completely different group of players. It's just not.
No, my reason for voting him is that I believe he is scum. At the time jerubbaal placed his vote, he was the third vote. The first was MMoD (random vote still on from the beginning of the game), then you, then jerubbaal.
Indeed.
Got anything else to add to the game other than that?
Brilliant logic.
Clear and blatant deflection. LJustus, can you give my eyes a rest and post something that's not scummy at least once?
The only way to get something out of him is to wagon him into a REAL claim.