I like the soft claim. In theory, I love the idea of a book claim, but I also think a book claim would straight up give away who I am (odd as that is).
Any possibility that a soft claim could hurt us badly? I just read Shaman Mafia as a suggestion from Chamber, and Puzzle blew the game wide open with a soft claim.
I know it goes against our current line of thought but how about soft claiming what books the character appeared in? Easily wikiable and shouldn't give too much away?
If not i'm fine with gender claim or age claim but not both together.
I know it goes against our current line of thought but how about soft claiming what books the character appeared in? Easily wikiable and shouldn't give too much away?
Too specific. Many characters can be pinpointed exactly using that. Or at least one of two-three options.
Examples: Sirius Black appears in books 1, 3, 4, and 5.
Nymphadora Tonks appears in books 5, 6, and 7 (probably others too, but...)
Remus Lupin appears in books 3, 5, 6, and 7 (maybe 4, but I don't remember him there).
And most of the characters appear in all of the books--having more than 15 players with the same claim is useless.
I'm not sure what a soft claim achieves, but I have no experience in mafia, so if the majority are for it, then I'm not going to stop anyone.
I'm fine with doing a gender soft-claim. I'm completely unfamiliar with the Harry Potter series, but it seems to me that a book claim could potentially give away too much useful information. For example, if a character likely to be a power role of some kind is only in a specific set of books, then they could easily be outed by such a thing.
Don't see the point in gender claims. There's prob. enough characters in HP, that claiming gender doesn't really lock someone up in a claim. Unless someone has better arguments I'm against the soft claim idea.
I am not fine with any sort of soft claim mentioned yet, for the mere fact that no one has explained how any of this will "lock people into their claim," which is more or less the only argument nearly every time a soft claim is suggested.
A book claim might be nice for the major characters, but a minor character might have trouble finding what books their character was in, and therefore allows for false claiming (claiming not to remember exactly what books their character was in, or even just claiming a book knowing several minor characters appeared in that book only).
An age claim doesn't help, because there are plenty of students around to claim, and even more adults.
A gender claim doesn't help, because there are probably over a hundred characters of each gender, so its not like we're "locking" anyone into anything.
Downsides: Potentially revealing more information than intended, and generally useless.
Upsides: None.
I'm neutral on gender/age claims, they seem to be fairly harmless, even if not very useful. What I would like to suggest is an acronym claim, similar to what was done in View Askew.
Each player types up his own claim in a Word document, as if he was full-claiming. For example, "Bob, Uber-Clown of Doom, twice per game at night I can roleblock a player of my choice", then posts the acronym and the number of words/characters, in this case "BUCODTPGANICRAPOMC, 17 words, 70 characters".
Locks the scum into claims w/o revealing anything.
We also don't know how many items each player has in his/her possession, unlike Hat Mafia where everyone knew that everyone had one hat (I believe, haven't read that game much).
Zchinque,
Can you please explain what led you to think players have different numbers of items on their person? Did you infer it from something public or because you have *gasp* seen more than one role PM?
I still hate the acronym plan....i find it useless entirely.
Fine with the gender subclaim, though i think its too broad a subclaim to help.
@jodo- Just ignore cpe....he's an idiot at this game, as you can see by him misattributing two posts to me.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Ironic LOL @ Loran misattributing his statement to the wrong player.
I didn't read View Askew very closely - did the scum group there ever "break" any of the acronyms? That's the primary concern I see for that plan, especially being able to locate the presence of all the letters in certain main character names.
I'm neutral on gender/age claims, they seem to be fairly harmless, even if not very useful. What I would like to suggest is an acronym claim, similar to what was done in View Askew.
Each player types up his own claim in a Word document, as if he was full-claiming. For example, "Bob, Uber-Clown of Doom, twice per game at night I can roleblock a player of my choice", then posts the acronym and the number of words/characters, in this case "BUCODTPGANICRAPOMC, 17 words, 70 characters".
Locks the scum into claims w/o revealing anything.
Discuss.
I like this plan much better if people want to do a soft claim, although, I think some steps could be added to it to make it safer, such as using a different letter than the first for the acronym.
Ironic LOL @ Loran misattributing his statement to the wrong player.
I didn't read View Askew very closely - did the scum group there ever "break" any of the acronyms? That's the primary concern I see for that plan, especially being able to locate the presence of all the letters in certain main character names.
As I recall, scum didn't break any of the acronyms, mostly because the town players exercised caution and didn't use any really obvious letter combinations such as JASBSB. Oh, and the guy who was vanilla described his role as OOC (opposite of chocolate :)).
If the town is smart about it, no information is revealed ahead of time.
Acronyming then allows for a level of flexibility that can be modified by a potential false-claimer, so it's not fool-proof. It is, however, far more able to lock-in limited possibilities than not doing a claim of any sort at all, or even a gender claim. Looks good to me - unless there's something I'm just completely missing, here.
Ah, I missed my self-imposed 17 post deadline... Unvote.
At any rate, mass name-claim is too risky at this point, and as mentioned, some characters stand to be possibly quite ambiguous. I'm not sure that CP would make the scum players' characters completely obvious, with the exception of Voldemort if he is in the game as a character.
Or if he did make it very obvious, I could see him providing safeclaims for them.
As for the soft claims, I don't know about gender as it doesn't do a great job of locking anyone in...a bit too open.
The acronym plan makes a bit more sense, has some more potential, but I'm not 100% sure that it would even matter, and could falsely exonerate some of the scum if CP does provide good safeclaims.
-Alpha
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Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
I haven't actually figured them completely out, but from what I think I have, I'm going to guess the first is a doctor. The second is more confusing, but I would guess that they're not a power role.
i do have concerns with how easily they could be faked in that case. It would be too easy to false claim
As an alternate exercise, why not try coming up with a false claim to match the given letters and character numbers. I'm guessing it won't be nearly as easy as you think.
Any possibility that a soft claim could hurt us badly? I just read Shaman Mafia as a suggestion from Chamber, and Puzzle blew the game wide open with a soft claim.
Did you seriously just fricking cite Shaman Mafia as a claim broken game? Puzzle was Mafia, their win was to kill a specific role, he used his role name list TO BREAK THE GAME IN THEIR FAVOR.
/end rant
I can get behind the cryptography claims, but before we do it I want to make sure CP is ok as mod with us doing this. On MS, I've seen a lot of complaints about this style of claim because its, well, broken.
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Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone
To the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Did you seriously just fricking cite Shaman Mafia as a claim broken game? Puzzle was Mafia, their win was to kill a specific role, he used his role name list TO BREAK THE GAME IN THEIR FAVOR.
/end rant
I can get behind the cryptography claims, but before we do it I want to make sure CP is ok as mod with us doing this. On MS, I've seen a lot of complaints about this style of claim because its, well, broken.
Ummm, it didn't help the town too much in View Askew (the town won, but with no help or hurt from the crypto claims).
Then again, it didn't hurt.
Also, i love classic games like shamon mafia. Always trust those peacekeepers. :-P.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Well, I think it's fairly safe to say that it is role-related then, and not just extreme dyslexia.
-Alpha
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Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
Why is full naming wrong?? Anyone can be scum from the cannon due to the presence of the imperious curse. And almost any scum (excluding voldemort himself and a few others) could concievably be town. It's just forces scum into positions early.
Why is full naming wrong?? Anyone can be scum from the cannon due to the presence of the imperious curse. And almost any scum (excluding voldemort himself and a few others) could concievably be town. It's just forces scum into positions early.
Yes, I'm quite sure the Bellatrix Lestrange and Lucious Malfoy can totally be town! /sarcasm
You are also saying that we could easily lynch Ron Weasley himself and have him turn up scum.
"Town could be scum! Scum could be town!" is what I get from that post. Why are you throwing are suspicion like this?
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I'm fine with the acronym plan, under one condition. Everyone, please take the time to make it hard to decipher your acronym. The last thing we want is power roles dying off left and right because the scum are perceptive enough to decipher it.
You're @ three votes now, scum. I think it's time for a claim, no?
Hmm, things have certainly started off quickly.
I hate to follow the crowd, but I agree w/ the most of the thoughts that have been presented. Namely:
1. Item passing plan is bad.
2. Soft claim of gender, age range, etc. would be pretty useless.
3. Crypto-claiming = good.
4. Loran shouldn't live through the day.
One thing I want to make sure is clear, though. Are we claiming just our name? Or name and role? Are we claiming what item(s) we started the game with? We should make sure these things are clear before we go through with this.
I'm fine with the acronym plan, under one condition. Everyone, please take the time to make it hard to decipher your acronym. The last thing we want is power roles dying off left and right because the scum are perceptive enough to decipher it.
Right, because that's common.
I've decided that too many people have ripped off my mass-claim plan, that any future pursuits of it will be seen as "derivative" and "tired" and "dull". Damn you all.
I'm against any and all claims at this point, under the assumption that nothing is as it seems. Plus, I figure at least one of the people asking for claims are the "good guy" scum that we can pretty easily guess exist in this game, so there's not much to be gained.
And really: how often do Day 1 Sub-Claim ploys work in games that aren't broken?
And really: how often do Day 1 Sub-Claim ploys work in games that aren't broken?
That's kinda hard to say. The benefits of such a claim are often hard to see, but that doesn't mean it doesn't help.
The last game I played in, we(the scum) had a list of town roles, and we convinced everyone to claim the third letter of their rolename. As it turned out, DYH had info on MY role, and I ended up getting outed due to the plan.
This situation is quite different, but as long as we play it in such a way that we don't give out any info, but rather just lock ourselves into our claims, it has a pretty low risk factor.
It's a possible benefit without any real harm. If someone goes MPD they could even be mundungus pointless dud. And be vanilla. In fact if Mundungus vanilla is in the game that would be a sweet acronym...
I'm in favor of an anagram claim, if only because that's the least useful for anyone except the person who posts it. Any claims of unobscured information have the chance to significantly backfire.
It's a possible benefit without any real harm. If someone goes MPD they could even be mundungus pointless dud. And be vanilla. In fact if Mundungus vanilla is in the game that would be a sweet acronym...
That's a double-edged sword, though, in regard to town benefit. Not that it's extremely likely, but it's then possible for the scum to devise an acronym that has outs in case he gets counterclaimed.
-Alpha
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
Seriously people, crypto claims are broken. If done well, the scum gain 0 info and the town forces people to make role claims early on the spot. Once CP comments saying its ok, anyone who doesn't want to is automatically very suspect to me.
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To the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.
Fullclaim. Name, abilities, items... anything that you would normally add if you fullclaimed. If you're later required to partial claim (just your name, or a certain item's name, or whatever) it shouldn't be too hard to quote just the part of the acronym it's mentioned in. Shouldn't be a problem for town, and only makes it harder for scum to manipulate the actual meaning of their acronym.
That's what I'm thinking.
Quote from Alpha »
That's a double-edged sword, though, in regard to town benefit. Not that it's extremely likely, but it's then possible for the scum to devise an acronym that has outs in case he gets counterclaimed.
Even so, that locks them into one of two or three claims, rather than just claiming whatever is convenient at the time they claim.
Scum feed on opportunity, and this will limit their opportunities.
Even so, that locks them into one of two or three claims, rather than just claiming whatever is convenient at the time they claim.
Scum feed on opportunity, and this will limit their opportunities.
That is true, and it is of course still preferable to no limit at all. I'm already for it, I just want everyone to keep that in mind later.
-Alpha
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
Still disagree about gender claim. Lets say it does cut them down to half the claims. Well, there are half the amount of players who can possibly counterclaim you (not necessarily half, but you get the idea).
I don't mind acronym. I was in the View Askew game. It was sorta useful, if only to prove you didn't lie. The number of letters is very important to the claim, this is what prevents someone from easily getting around multiple meanings. Also, I disagree about specifically stating your name/role/etc. If you can write an anagram that when deciphered, is irrefutable about who or what it's supposed to reference to, then that's fine.
Did you seriously just fricking cite Shaman Mafia as a claim broken game? Puzzle was Mafia, their win was to kill a specific role, he used his role name list TO BREAK THE GAME IN THEIR FAVOR.
/end rant
That's what I meant, it was claim broken for the scum to take advantage of it too easily. I was asking if softclaiming could be a bad idea because scum could take advantage of it for special reasons. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
I like the acronym idea! It's quite an interesting idea to me.
I don't know much HP flavour at all, what is the Imperious Curse?
Everyone's ripping off my idea.
Not in favor of the plan.
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Too specific. Many characters can be pinpointed exactly using that. Or at least one of two-three options.
Examples: Sirius Black appears in books 1, 3, 4, and 5.
Nymphadora Tonks appears in books 5, 6, and 7 (probably others too, but...)
Remus Lupin appears in books 3, 5, 6, and 7 (maybe 4, but I don't remember him there).
And most of the characters appear in all of the books--having more than 15 players with the same claim is useless.
I'm not sure what a soft claim achieves, but I have no experience in mafia, so if the majority are for it, then I'm not going to stop anyone.
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Don't see the point in gender claims. There's prob. enough characters in HP, that claiming gender doesn't really lock someone up in a claim. Unless someone has better arguments I'm against the soft claim idea.
A book claim might be nice for the major characters, but a minor character might have trouble finding what books their character was in, and therefore allows for false claiming (claiming not to remember exactly what books their character was in, or even just claiming a book knowing several minor characters appeared in that book only).
An age claim doesn't help, because there are plenty of students around to claim, and even more adults.
A gender claim doesn't help, because there are probably over a hundred characters of each gender, so its not like we're "locking" anyone into anything.
Downsides: Potentially revealing more information than intended, and generally useless.
Upsides: None.
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Each player types up his own claim in a Word document, as if he was full-claiming. For example, "Bob, Uber-Clown of Doom, twice per game at night I can roleblock a player of my choice", then posts the acronym and the number of words/characters, in this case "BUCODTPGANICRAPOMC, 17 words, 70 characters".
Locks the scum into claims w/o revealing anything.
Also,
Zchinque,
Can you please explain what led you to think players have different numbers of items on their person? Did you infer it from something public or because you have *gasp* seen more than one role PM?
Fine with the gender subclaim, though i think its too broad a subclaim to help.
@jodo- Just ignore cpe....he's an idiot at this game, as you can see by him misattributing two posts to me.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I didn't read View Askew very closely - did the scum group there ever "break" any of the acronyms? That's the primary concern I see for that plan, especially being able to locate the presence of all the letters in certain main character names.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
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As I recall, scum didn't break any of the acronyms, mostly because the town players exercised caution and didn't use any really obvious letter combinations such as JASBSB. Oh, and the guy who was vanilla described his role as OOC (opposite of chocolate :)).
If the town is smart about it, no information is revealed ahead of time.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
At any rate, mass name-claim is too risky at this point, and as mentioned, some characters stand to be possibly quite ambiguous. I'm not sure that CP would make the scum players' characters completely obvious, with the exception of Voldemort if he is in the game as a character.
Or if he did make it very obvious, I could see him providing safeclaims for them.
As for the soft claims, I don't know about gender as it doesn't do a great job of locking anyone in...a bit too open.
The acronym plan makes a bit more sense, has some more potential, but I'm not 100% sure that it would even matter, and could falsely exonerate some of the scum if CP does provide good safeclaims.
-Alpha
TBWTLSSOHFENCDS 15 words, 72 letters
TCOTTBCDAOTV 12 words, 59 letters
Are these HP themed?
I haven't actually figured them completely out, but from what I think I have, I'm going to guess the first is a doctor. The second is more confusing, but I would guess that they're not a power role.
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JY's plan-no
sub claim gender/age-no ande pointed out why.
name claim-I like
Acronym claim-Hmm...I like that too
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
As an alternate exercise, why not try coming up with a false claim to match the given letters and character numbers. I'm guessing it won't be nearly as easy as you think.
Did you seriously just fricking cite Shaman Mafia as a claim broken game? Puzzle was Mafia, their win was to kill a specific role, he used his role name list TO BREAK THE GAME IN THEIR FAVOR.
/end rant
I can get behind the cryptography claims, but before we do it I want to make sure CP is ok as mod with us doing this. On MS, I've seen a lot of complaints about this style of claim because its, well, broken.
creampuffeater (1): Faerie Lord
AlphaInsidious (1): loran16
mystery meat of doom (1): goatrevolt
CropCircles (2): arimnaes, Disrupt_Your_Hymn
andelijah (2): armlx, Alx2
JodoYodo (1): mystery meat of doom
loran16 (3): Grimclaw, Jobie, creampuffeater
Disrupt_Your_Hymn (2): Ged, BigTime
Jobie (3): TheFooFish, JodoYodo, Zchinque
TheFooFish (1): Dagger
GiftsTrix (1): Diggy
I am not going to forbid cryptography. Subclaiming is a legitimate ploy, and one I couldn't realistically prevent even if I wanted to.
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Ummm, it didn't help the town too much in View Askew (the town won, but with no help or hurt from the crypto claims).
Then again, it didn't hurt.
Also, i love classic games like shamon mafia. Always trust those peacekeepers. :-P.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
HOW DARE YOU ACCUSE ME OF SUCH A THING!!! I AM NEVER WRONG!
For all the time you yell at Niv, I would expect your spelling to be better
Unvote, Vote FaerieLord
-Alpha
I'm OK with soft claim, but I really do like the Acronym plan better.
Full name claiming is just....Wrong. Ugh.
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
Yes, I'm quite sure the Bellatrix Lestrange and Lucious Malfoy can totally be town! /sarcasm
You are also saying that we could easily lynch Ron Weasley himself and have him turn up scum.
"Town could be scum! Scum could be town!" is what I get from that post. Why are you throwing are suspicion like this?
Yes ron is not immunte to the imperious curse wich could easily mean scum alignment.
Throwing around suspicion? All i'm saying is that role names don't dictate alignment. Way to overreact there.
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
....
I never said Crypto claims are bad.
I said a straight mass claim is bad, and citing Shaman Mafia does not help.
You're @ three votes now, scum. I think it's time for a claim, no?
Hmm, things have certainly started off quickly.
I hate to follow the crowd, but I agree w/ the most of the thoughts that have been presented. Namely:
1. Item passing plan is bad.
2. Soft claim of gender, age range, etc. would be pretty useless.
3. Crypto-claiming = good.
4. Loran shouldn't live through the day.
One thing I want to make sure is clear, though. Are we claiming just our name? Or name and role? Are we claiming what item(s) we started the game with? We should make sure these things are clear before we go through with this.
[The Family]
Right, because that's common.
I've decided that too many people have ripped off my mass-claim plan, that any future pursuits of it will be seen as "derivative" and "tired" and "dull". Damn you all.
I'm against any and all claims at this point, under the assumption that nothing is as it seems. Plus, I figure at least one of the people asking for claims are the "good guy" scum that we can pretty easily guess exist in this game, so there's not much to be gained.
And really: how often do Day 1 Sub-Claim ploys work in games that aren't broken?
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The last game I played in, we(the scum) had a list of town roles, and we convinced everyone to claim the third letter of their rolename. As it turned out, DYH had info on MY role, and I ended up getting outed due to the plan.
This situation is quite different, but as long as we play it in such a way that we don't give out any info, but rather just lock ourselves into our claims, it has a pretty low risk factor.
[The Family]
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
I'm in favor of an anagram claim, if only because that's the least useful for anyone except the person who posts it. Any claims of unobscured information have the chance to significantly backfire.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
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Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
That's a double-edged sword, though, in regard to town benefit. Not that it's extremely likely, but it's then possible for the scum to devise an acronym that has outs in case he gets counterclaimed.
-Alpha
Even so, that locks them into one of two or three claims, rather than just claiming whatever is convenient at the time they claim.
Scum feed on opportunity, and this will limit their opportunities.
[The Family]
That is true, and it is of course still preferable to no limit at all. I'm already for it, I just want everyone to keep that in mind later.
-Alpha
So I think we should go ahead and do it. though we should wait for everybody to check in first.
I am CPE, yes, what are you getting at?
Unvote, Vote AI
I don't mind acronym. I was in the View Askew game. It was sorta useful, if only to prove you didn't lie. The number of letters is very important to the claim, this is what prevents someone from easily getting around multiple meanings. Also, I disagree about specifically stating your name/role/etc. If you can write an anagram that when deciphered, is irrefutable about who or what it's supposed to reference to, then that's fine.
Time to game break.
I expect every post from here on to be someone crypto claiming or someone who has already crypto claimed.
DOOPSMBBOATB: 53
That's what I meant, it was claim broken for the scum to take advantage of it too easily. I was asking if softclaiming could be a bad idea because scum could take advantage of it for special reasons. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
I like the acronym idea! It's quite an interesting idea to me.
I don't know much HP flavour at all, what is the Imperious Curse?
IAHOTSAIHTOOYWICLAPM
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Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia