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Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
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Spoon, do you have any idea whatsoever why your name is always singled out and blue?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
It's not enough weight. Nothing in there has jumped out at me and said "yeah, scum." It's not even that I disagree with most of the behavioral accusations... it's just that the puzzle doesn't come together at the end.
Quote from Abbey »
The longer that I remain unclaimed, the more powerful my role becomes. As soon as my ability is claimed, it becomes relatively useless. I would give a name claim, but I understood the previous calls to be for a full claim, which everyone knows my thoughts on.
Look, its basically the end game. We don't need your ability anymore, whatever it is. So I don't much care if it gets wasted by your roleclaim.
Catching scum > maximizing abilities at this stage.
Considering that the Oracle role was spilled 2 days ago, is there any reason at all why, if the Mafia have a "Flower Recruitment" power for the Oracle role (as opposed to any old role), that they wouldn't have hit you with it already?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@Puzz: why did you claim that? Even if we do catch the flower-sender today, we're most likely going to end up trading one scum for another. How does that help? Are we just automatically going to have to lynch the Oracle role tomorrow, now?
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Also, I was sent flowers after I had already claimed. There's no way that's what it is.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Meh. Odds are pretty good that the flowers do something, and they didn't seem to when I was targeted. If Puzzle's PM mentions flowers, then odds are good that his role reacts in some way to them.
It just doesn't seem very pro-town to me to bring it up. What's he hoping to accomplish?
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Because he's vanilla today and the SK shot Axelrod.
First, you claimed yourself the vanillization wore off. Maybe it wore off for him as well, and he's not claiming it.
Second, the combination of SK+vanillifier in one game is strange. Nominally, barring any other effects, the SK can no longer win once he's been vanillaed. Hence, I believe there's more to this interaction than meets the eye.
Because he's vanilla today and the SK shot Axelrod.
Because if he was SK he'd totally be telling the truth about being vanilla. And shooting Axelrod doesn't make a whole lot of sense no matter who the SK is. Neither of these things takes RafK out of the SK pool. I also can't remember why Axel was taken out of the pool.
Also, it's terribly unlikely that I'm mafia assuming I'm telling the truth about my role (which we can easily be tested). The reasoning there goes that on night 3, 3 presumably scum actions are missing (the cake, the kill, and the flowers) and yet Dagger managed to target me.
Considering that the Oracle role was spilled 2 days ago, is there any reason at all why, if the Mafia have a "Flower Recruitment" power for the Oracle role (as opposed to any old role), that they wouldn't have hit you with it already?
This is a most excellent question, and it needs an answer.
@Puzz: why did you claim that? Even if we do catch the flower-sender today, we're most likely going to end up trading one scum for another. How does that help?
This is a most excellent question, and it needs an answer.
Meh. Odds are pretty good that the flowers do something, and they didn't seem to when I was targeted. If Puzzle's PM mentions flowers, then odds are good that his role reacts in some way to them.
It just doesn't seem very pro-town to me to bring it up. What's he hoping to accomplish?
Another most excellent question that needs an answer.
1 kill + 1 cake-sending + 1 flower-sending. If Dagger is scum, that means there were 6 Mafiosi to start with.
Here's a gift, dudes and dudettes.
In Sin City, the mafia could kill AND use their abilities.
And if you want proof that this game is the same? I totally reckon that atlseal was killing and using abilities early on. The kill method changed when he died.
The side that has an interest in "clearing" people who use abilities is the mafia. Everyone who has used that argument is suspect.
Because if he was SK he'd totally be telling the truth about being vanilla.
Spoon, dude, no way!
We've been through that.
If I was SK and I wasn't made vanilla by fade, how did I know that fade hadn't targeted someone else?
Quote from Spoon »
I also can't remember why Axel was taken out of the pool.
Me either.
Also, it's terribly unlikely that I'm mafia assuming I'm telling the truth about my role (which we can easily be tested).
Easily. Totally easily!
Um, how?
And even if it IS true, how is it terribly unlikely that the mafia godfather has some kind of targeting protection, oh Master and Ruler of Bogus Cupcakes?
And just in case people missed it in the long post above, this point is important. Van Halen important.
*air guitar intro*
Here's a gift, dudes and dudettes.
In Sin City, the mafia could kill AND use their abilities.
And if you want proof that this game is the same? I totally reckon that atlseal was killing and using abilities early on. The kill method changed when he died.
The side that has an interest in "clearing" people who use abilities is the mafia. Everyone who has used that argument is suspect.
I agree that there are, most likely, 5 mafia, considering that we had an SK and a Cult. 6 is too many, especially with atlseal being able to dodge a kill.
I don't see why Dagger is precluded from being mafia just based on submitted actions. Have the cake and the flowers ever been sent on the same night? If so, I agree that Dagger probably isn't scum. If not, I don't see why it's not the same person that has both of these. Certainly, the flower sending implies a certain elegance that would be in character with the Merovingian, and I could definetely see the Merovingian being able to talk to any # of people that he wants to. Plus, something about Dagger's role implies a certain amount of elegance, as well. Puzzle probably knows what I mean. Still, I'm not sure how much of a stretch this all is. I just think it's a possibility.
I don't think Spoon could possibly be the SK, to be completely honest. The fact that he votes in blue, and his votes appear on the vote count in blue, draw far too much attention to his role to make him a candidate for SK or even mafia, IMO. Mafia maybe, but I really can't see him being the SK.
I think we can believe RafK that he was made Vanilla today. I just really doubt that he made up being made Vanilla today on the spot, and he was only involved in that kill if he is mafia, which I find highly doubtful. I could see him being the SK, but, not mafia.
I really only see AG and RafK as possibilities for SK, and if RafK was on the ball enough to jump on the 'I was made Vanilla' wagon without knowing about the ability in advance, in order to distance himself(temporarily) from the possibility of being the SK..then my hat is off to him.
AG seems like the most likely SK candidate to me, and Hawkeye seems like the most likely mafia candidate. I feel much more confident about Hawkeye being mafia than..anything else. Not surprisingly.
EBWODP: RafK makes another good point. Claiming to have been made vanilla would be far, far too ballsy when fade could have easily targeted someone else today. I think that virtually clears him of suspicion as the SK, and I haven't gotten a mafia feeling from him at all this game. I don't think RafK is really a suspect, now.
Raf, so you are a proponent of the "it was the Cheshire Cat who was *biting and draining* people" school of thought?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
If I was SK and I wasn't made vanilla by fade, how did I know that fade hadn't targeted someone else?
It's called a very ballsy gambit on your part in hopes that Fade, in his conservative nature, would not target someone else. If he doesn't target someone, you get a free pass for a few days that could make a difference.
C'mon Raf, this is the sort of play I'd expect to see out of you as a scum. The fact you keep using such an excuse as your body armor only makes me think you're gambiting that much more.
Besides, Mr. Kevin Costner, there's precedent for you trying ballsy moves, remember.
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The risk vs. reward of that just don't make alot of sense, IMO. Risk outing yourself immediately as scum, vs. buying a little more time for yourself? I really don't see RafK making that play.
Raf, so you are a proponent of the "it was the Cheshire Cat who was *biting and draining* people" school of thought?
The lynch scene on atl, plus the change in kill method last night, make it totally possible. Likely, even.
The better evidence that the most excellent Azrael allows his mafia to kill AND rock out at the same time, though, is from when I was back in the "Sin City" time period and saw him do it there.
It's called a very ballsy gambit on your part in hopes that Fade, in his conservative nature, would not target someone else. If he doesn't target someone, you get a free pass for a few days that could make a difference.
And if he did, I'm totally wasted. And if there's a watcher who can see me doing stuff while vanilla, I'm totally wasted.
I'm not that eager to dance with the reaper, to take that chance on a gambit which doesn't even clear me of being mafia (it just clears me of being SK).
And fade isn't a conservative square kind of guy, he's a "douse you in vanilla without warning" kind of guy, like he did to Puzzle. He keeps quiet about his suspicions until he's ready to act, and he acts before he talks if he can.
Besides, Mr. Kevin Costner, there's precedent for you trying ballsy moves, remember.
Kevin Costner? Dude. The only way I'd go to see Dances with Wolves is if the chick I was going with had at LEAST C-cups.
If I recall correctly, Raf, Puzzle received the PM telling him he was no longer vanilla after the beginning of the Day, and after you had already posted declaring that you had become vanilla.
Is there a reason why Az could not have sent you a PM telling you that you were no longer vanilla at the same time? In which case doing what you did would not exactly have been a gambit, would it?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Whoa, of course it's possible, Axel Foley. Everything is. Don't ask if it's possible, ask if it's LIKELY.
I agree with the Puzz-ter that it's more likely that fade's ability wears off after a day than only wears off if fade gets killed- much more fair on the SK, for example, unless the SK is one of these untargetable johnnies, and totally easier to justify in flavour (I mean, how would Veil dying affect the code he made? Whereas if it was temporary to begin with...)
But I totally would say that, wouldn't I?
By the way, we only have the Puzz-ter's word for it that it wore off at all. I hope he's telling the truth on that, but it isn't guaranteed. He might even be gambitting for me to say "me too!", which would be a totally awesome gambit if I had any reason to lie
Thinking more of it, I came to the conclusion that Fade's effect was likely temporary : for 1 day and 1 night only.
I'm pretty sure the PM Az sent me was meant to be sent at the end of the night. In such a case, the most likely conclusion is that Fade's effect is just temporary. there's also the possibility that the effect lasted only until his death but that's less likely imo. In particular, what would RafK have been told : "You're vanilla for a fraction of second" ? It seems clunky ; not impossible but clunky.
Do we have the post where fade claimed/full claimed at all?
Have the cake and the flowers ever been sent on the same night? If so, I agree that Dagger probably isn't scum. If not, I don't see why it's not the same person that has both of these. Certainly, the flower sending implies a certain elegance that would be in character with the Merovingian, and I could definetely see the Merovingian being able to talk to any # of people that he wants to. Plus, something about Dagger's role implies a certain amount of elegance, as well. Puzzle probably knows what I mean. Still, I'm not sure how much of a stretch this all is. I just think it's a possibility.
Last night actually, where AG received cake and CP received flower.
Also, I am now very much interested in pushing for a mass full claim. So many things are out in the open right now and with at the very least two unclaimed abilities, I see a mass full claim more beneficial than not.
I am going to say that I agree with Vampyr on the point that I could very well see Rafk gambiting on the fact that he had been vanillanized by fade. There is an incentive for fade to target Puzzle two nights ago. Since he is town, the only other incentive he could possibly have was to target the masons, and we have seen how both ZDS and Vampyr objected vehemently to such an action. There is absolutely, and I emphasize absolutely no reason for fade to target anyone else, especially an unclaimed player like Rafk last night if fade is town.
Well, if AG received cake(theoretically), and CP received the flower, I suppose the flower-giver and cake-giver must be different people, at least.
I think a mass claim is probably warranted, but I really, really would like to see Hawkeye lynched first. We already know his claim, and it's nothing inspiring. Seeing whom gets NKed would probably answer alot of questions, as well.
I think a mass claim is probably warranted, but I really, really would like to see Hawkeye lynched first. We already know his claim, and it's nothing inspiring. Seeing whom gets NKed would probably answer alot of questions, as well.
I agree with this statement. I feel like a lot of this is running in circles.
I could definitely see a lot of merit in the theory that the mafia can both use their abilities and kill on the same night. My gut is saying that the way that so many players have been soft-confirmed already by their abilities (in a scenario where mafia cannot do both) along with a group of masons presents too much of an endgame nightmare for game balance.
I would like to point out that under that theory, no one is cleared based on abilities alone. No one.
Whoa, man, it isn't just a theory. Mafia members in Azrael's Sin City used their abilities and killed on the same night- the excellent RafK could not have won that game otherwise. And what a truly rocking win that was!
*plays Glory Days on air guitar*
Your armchair ride of being able to say "I'm not a killer! I'm just a telephone operator!" is totally over.
There is absolutely, and I emphasize absolutely no reason for fade to target anyone else, especially an unclaimed player like Rafk last night if fade is town.
"if fade is town"? Um, dude, the directory where Azrael writes stuff down is RIGHT THERE.
Reason for fade to target me = fade is suspicious of me and knows I'm not the cop, dude. fade kicked himself in the post-game of Court Mafia for not doing anything about me and DYH when he was suspicious of us.
And like, there's not much risk involved if fade's ability is temporary and he knew it.
Or to put it another way YOUR POINT SUCKS! Wyld Stallyns RULE! *air guitar*
Totally another topic: besides last night, was there ever cake and flower on the same night? Because the best explanation of all on why the scum would waste the cake on AG is if the scum couldn't use the cake anyway.
*crickets*
Because AG would be a lying scum using fake cake to clear himself! It's totally clear, right?
I think a mass claim is probably warranted, but I really, really would like to see Hawkeye lynched first. We already know his claim, and it's nothing inspiring.
Yes way.
Seeing whom gets NKed would probably answer alot of questions, as well.
No way, unless the kill choices are completely weird.
And like, there's not much risk involved if fade's ability is temporary and he knew it.
.
.
.
Totally another topic: besides last night, was there ever cake and flower on the same night? Because the best explanation of all on why the scum would waste the cake on AG is if the scum couldn't use the cake anyway.
*crickets*
Because AG would be a lying scum using fake cake to clear himself! It's totally clear, right?
First, I hate the argument that fade's ability is/was temporary, considering that it's based totally and completely off of flavor speculation. That's not to say that I think it wasn't, but there is no call whatsoever for clearing Raf of SKness on account of this point.
Second of all, Axel claimed to have received Flowers on night 2, according to this, so the flowers and cake are both missing night 3. Regardless, don't forget that the cake makes people untargetable, too: scum might well want to have their cake and eat it too.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I hate the argument that fade's ability is/was temporary, considering that it's based totally and completely off of flavor speculation.
Actually, it's based totally and completely off Puzzle saying it wore off on him.
Puzzle could be a heinous liar, of course. Which looks more likely after his "HAY SCUM GIVE TEH FLOURZ 2 *ME* K THX" moment of bogosity. Which makes it look more likely that I'm permanent vanilla custard or else silenced so that Puzzle isn't exposed, both of which would be totally bogus, dudes.
Thinking more of it, I came to the conclusion that Fade's effect was likely temporary : for 1 day and 1 night only.
I'm pretty sure the PM Az sent me was meant to be sent at the end of the night. In such a case, the most likely conclusion is that Fade's effect is just temporary. there's also the possibility that the effect lasted only until his death but that's less likely imo. In particular, what would RafK have been told : "You're vanilla for a fraction of second" ? It seems clunky ; not impossible but clunky.
It doesn't clear him 100% but it does make him less likely to be the SK for me, enough to put the priority on Spoon and AG. Mostly Spoon in fact now.
As for Dagger, I've just recounted the original number of players, which is 24. That means indeed that 6 is the likely starting number for the Mafia UNLESS they have someone to recruit, which is what I think to be the case. What other effect could the flowers have ?
At the very least, we know that no more than one of Dagger and Alx2 can be scum.
And in any case, there's another card for Dagger to play to clear himself : cf the PM suggestion.
Can we lynch Spoon ?
6 Mafia + 1 SK + 1 Cut Leader + 16 townies is not balanced for the town. That is 8 people we have to lynch.
I already showed the math on this and how it would be completely unbalanced for the town barring some really ridiculous abilities and some expectation for crosskills.
And since we know the mafia had a way to protect themselves from the SK (or atleast, ATL did) then I highly doubt there are 6 mafia. It just doesn't fit.
Or, if there are 6 mafia, there is no SK and the daykiller is in the mafia. Which hardly seems balanced, but it's more likely than 6 mafia + 1 SK.
The Cake and Flowers both are claimed for Night 2 (my
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
The cake and flowers are both claimed for Night 2 (my getting the flowers and Xyre getting the Cake). I don't think they can be coming from the same player. I'm also fairly convinced that player isn't Dagger as he also targeted me on Night 2 with the Night Communication thing. That doesn't mean Dagger isn't Mafia, but I think it means he isn't the Cake sending Mafia and he isn't the Flower sending Mafia. With 2 Mafia down, neither of whom appears to be the Cake or Flower sender, that means that Dagger's % chances of being scum are less than almost anyone else's. There may be 3 mafia left, but Dagger could only be one of those three, whereas other players are still candidates for all three.
I asked who people wanted to see dead most (which is like asking who do you want to lynch), but let me ask another question. A hypothetical. Let's say we lynch Hawkeye and he's town. Let's just say for sake of hypothetical.
With that information in mind, who would you want to go after next? You can do it the other way also - if Hawkeye is lynched and comes up scum who do you want next - but I'm more interested at this point in who you would look at if he came up town.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
With that information in mind, who would you want to go after next? You can do it the other way also - if Hawkeye is lynched and comes up scum who do you want next - but I'm more interested at this point in who you would look at if he came up town.
I want to see a dead mason, a dead spoon and a dead Abbey. Not neccesarily in that order.
Do we know something about Xyre's role that conclusively tells us that he's town? I don't have much on him thus far. It wouldn't really surprise me if, hypothetically speaking, Dagger's role could run communications with whomever he wants and target someone with the cake as well.
I'm not sure whom I'm interested in after Hawkeye. Xyre or AG, I think.
Also, is there any reason that Alx's RP-forcing role can't be scum?
I asked who people wanted to see dead most (which is like asking who do you want to lynch), but let me ask another question. A hypothetical. Let's say we lynch Hawkeye and he's town. Let's just say for sake of hypothetical.
With that information in mind, who would you want to go after next? You can do it the other way also - if Hawkeye is lynched and comes up scum who do you want next - but I'm more interested at this point in who you would look at if he came up town.
If HE comes up as scum, I'd like to see Alx be the next target. If HE is town, my first thought was to name Cyan, but thinking about it I think it's Cyan being Cyan. So, I'm not sure who to suggest. I'd have to go back and look to see who else besides Cyan made the biggest push on HE.
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Also, is there any reason that Alx's RP-forcing role can't be scum?
I believe we already went over this.
On a theoretical level, I could be scum, but then the mafia would have a role that investigated Kraj, while getting both rolename and ability with no roleplaying, and another role which quasi-investigates with forced roleplaying. Possible? Yes. Makes sense? Not really.
Do we know something about Xyre's role that conclusively tells us that he's town? I don't have much on him thus far. It wouldn't really surprise me if, hypothetically speaking, Dagger's role could run communications with whomever he wants and target someone with the cake as well.
Well, Xyre almost singlehandidly owened ATL. So if Xyre is scum, he'd have to be the SK. Which is not impossible if the SK is a daykiller and has a night action too.
Quote from Cyan »
Also, is there any reason that Alx's RP-forcing role can't be scum?
No, except that if he is we don't have a way of explaining how they knew Kraj was the cult leader. Because if that's the case, it's unlikely they have a role that makes you RP AND another role that lets them determine rolenames.
Unless a member of the mafia was recruited by the cult or something. But IIRC, we the cult leader only had 1 night to recruit and he recruited Fade.
Didn't one of our masons claim to have gained some new ability? Was that Dagger's thing?
Speaking of the whole Xyre/atlseal thing, there's one thing bothering me. Why would atlseal take the spoon and lie about it? I mean, if we look at the case of AtlScum vs. XyreTown, atlseal basically committed suicide for zero gain.
He could have easily (a) refused the spoon, which meshed well with his previous play of expressing suspicions of Xyre, or (b) at the very least, tell the truth about taking the spoon.
Neither option a or b seem to be particularly hazardous for him, yes he chose suicide. What gives?
I'm not trying to say that Alx is necessarily scum, but I think our way of clearing him is somewhat flawed. We know nothing about Atlseal's role. Obviously he used different smilies, and it's safe to assume that said use of those smilies really did something. Considering Loran's action towards Atlseal yesterday, I think the most likely result is that Atlseal gained the knowledge of Kraj' role on N1, then essentially revealed it to everyone, scum included, on Day 2. If the mafia knew Kraj's alignment before their NK was submitted, why would they live him alive? If the idea was that Atlseal would gain credibility, then Loran's reaction makes no sense. I think that the different emoticions that Atlseal used each had a different effect. Why the :grin: (or whatever it is) one would give some kind of investigation..I have no idea.
In essence, Atlseal was most likely telling some truth about his role being a JoAT. He just fibbed about needing -2 to lynch, and lied about how the smilies worked. Obviously he didn't plan on getting tripped up by Xyre's role. I would imagine that the abilities he gained were a 1-shot investigation, 1-shot kill dodge, 1-shot vote fog(stands to reason that Atlseal did this himself), and something else, no idea what though.
Why he would take the Spoon from Xyre, I have no clue. Maybe he just figured people wouldn't target him later...which seems pretty stupid. Or, Xyre is lying. Hard to tell.
I absolutely could see the Merovingian using Dagger's style of commucation. He talks to anyone he wants, and can relay the messages of those them all to each other..if he wants.
I forgot about Alx' reaction to Atlseal's claim. That is definitely a big + for him, as far as the likelihood of him being town.
I don't remember Spoon claiming to be protected from kills, but I think that it's a stretch to say that Hvir's role pointed to him being untargetable. If that was the case, why wouldn't he have just said so?
I'm sorry, I missed spoon's ability-claim previously. Now that I went back and found it (3168), it does seem to be the most SK-ish of all claims so far.
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Can I get an official vote count?
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
3 Abbeygargoyle-Alx2, Grakthis, Xyre
1 Axelrod-CP
5 Hawkeye-Cyan, ZDS, Rafaelk, Spoon, Abbey
5 Not Voting-Axelrod, Hawkeye7, Dagger, Vampyr, Puzzle
With 14 alive, it's 8 to lynch.
I bet he does, considering he votes in blue.
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How about letting him answer before you start putting a slant on the topic. No need to make insinuations before he can answer.
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It's not enough weight. Nothing in there has jumped out at me and said "yeah, scum." It's not even that I disagree with most of the behavioral accusations... it's just that the puzzle doesn't come together at the end.
Look, its basically the end game. We don't need your ability anymore, whatever it is. So I don't much care if it gets wasted by your roleclaim.
Catching scum > maximizing abilities at this stage.
Sure, I am Seraph.
Could you please explain why isn't RafK not in the SK pool? I totally could see him as the SK.
@Puzz: why did you claim that? Even if we do catch the flower-sender today, we're most likely going to end up trading one scum for another. How does that help? Are we just automatically going to have to lynch the Oracle role tomorrow, now?
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It just doesn't seem very pro-town to me to bring it up. What's he hoping to accomplish?
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First, you claimed yourself the vanillization wore off. Maybe it wore off for him as well, and he's not claiming it.
Second, the combination of SK+vanillifier in one game is strange. Nominally, barring any other effects, the SK can no longer win once he's been vanillaed. Hence, I believe there's more to this interaction than meets the eye.
Because if he was SK he'd totally be telling the truth about being vanilla. And shooting Axelrod doesn't make a whole lot of sense no matter who the SK is. Neither of these things takes RafK out of the SK pool. I also can't remember why Axel was taken out of the pool.
Also, it's terribly unlikely that I'm mafia assuming I'm telling the truth about my role (which we can easily be tested). The reasoning there goes that on night 3, 3 presumably scum actions are missing (the cake, the kill, and the flowers) and yet Dagger managed to target me.
I'll claim whatever the rest I should soon.
This is a most excellent question, and it needs an answer.
This is a most excellent question, and it needs an answer.
Another most excellent question that needs an answer.
Yes way.
Maybe, but the Merovingian is probably the Heinous Lord of Cakedom.
Here's a gift, dudes and dudettes.
In Sin City, the mafia could kill AND use their abilities.
And if you want proof that this game is the same? I totally reckon that atlseal was killing and using abilities early on. The kill method changed when he died.
The side that has an interest in "clearing" people who use abilities is the mafia. Everyone who has used that argument is suspect.
Spoon, dude, no way!
We've been through that.
If I was SK and I wasn't made vanilla by fade, how did I know that fade hadn't targeted someone else?
Me either.
Easily. Totally easily!
Um, how?
And even if it IS true, how is it terribly unlikely that the mafia godfather has some kind of targeting protection, oh Master and Ruler of Bogus Cupcakes?
Or maybe you're the SK.
*air guitar intro*
Here's a gift, dudes and dudettes.
In Sin City, the mafia could kill AND use their abilities.
And if you want proof that this game is the same? I totally reckon that atlseal was killing and using abilities early on. The kill method changed when he died.
The side that has an interest in "clearing" people who use abilities is the mafia. Everyone who has used that argument is suspect.
*air guitar outro*
I don't see why Dagger is precluded from being mafia just based on submitted actions. Have the cake and the flowers ever been sent on the same night? If so, I agree that Dagger probably isn't scum. If not, I don't see why it's not the same person that has both of these. Certainly, the flower sending implies a certain elegance that would be in character with the Merovingian, and I could definetely see the Merovingian being able to talk to any # of people that he wants to. Plus, something about Dagger's role implies a certain amount of elegance, as well. Puzzle probably knows what I mean. Still, I'm not sure how much of a stretch this all is. I just think it's a possibility.
I don't think Spoon could possibly be the SK, to be completely honest. The fact that he votes in blue, and his votes appear on the vote count in blue, draw far too much attention to his role to make him a candidate for SK or even mafia, IMO. Mafia maybe, but I really can't see him being the SK.
I think we can believe RafK that he was made Vanilla today. I just really doubt that he made up being made Vanilla today on the spot, and he was only involved in that kill if he is mafia, which I find highly doubtful. I could see him being the SK, but, not mafia.
I really only see AG and RafK as possibilities for SK, and if RafK was on the ball enough to jump on the 'I was made Vanilla' wagon without knowing about the ability in advance, in order to distance himself(temporarily) from the possibility of being the SK..then my hat is off to him.
AG seems like the most likely SK candidate to me, and Hawkeye seems like the most likely mafia candidate. I feel much more confident about Hawkeye being mafia than..anything else. Not surprisingly.
It's called a very ballsy gambit on your part in hopes that Fade, in his conservative nature, would not target someone else. If he doesn't target someone, you get a free pass for a few days that could make a difference.
C'mon Raf, this is the sort of play I'd expect to see out of you as a scum. The fact you keep using such an excuse as your body armor only makes me think you're gambiting that much more.
Besides, Mr. Kevin Costner, there's precedent for you trying ballsy moves, remember.
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The lynch scene on atl, plus the change in kill method last night, make it totally possible. Likely, even.
The better evidence that the most excellent Azrael allows his mafia to kill AND rock out at the same time, though, is from when I was back in the "Sin City" time period and saw him do it there.
And if he did, I'm totally wasted. And if there's a watcher who can see me doing stuff while vanilla, I'm totally wasted.
I'm not that eager to dance with the reaper, to take that chance on a gambit which doesn't even clear me of being mafia (it just clears me of being SK).
And fade isn't a conservative square kind of guy, he's a "douse you in vanilla without warning" kind of guy, like he did to Puzzle. He keeps quiet about his suspicions until he's ready to act, and he acts before he talks if he can.
Kevin Costner? Dude. The only way I'd go to see Dances with Wolves is if the chick I was going with had at LEAST C-cups.
Now Keanu Reeves, there's a cool dude.
Is there a reason why Az could not have sent you a PM telling you that you were no longer vanilla at the same time? In which case doing what you did would not exactly have been a gambit, would it?
I agree with the Puzz-ter that it's more likely that fade's ability wears off after a day than only wears off if fade gets killed- much more fair on the SK, for example, unless the SK is one of these untargetable johnnies, and totally easier to justify in flavour (I mean, how would Veil dying affect the code he made? Whereas if it was temporary to begin with...)
But I totally would say that, wouldn't I?
By the way, we only have the Puzz-ter's word for it that it wore off at all. I hope he's telling the truth on that, but it isn't guaranteed. He might even be gambitting for me to say "me too!", which would be a totally awesome gambit if I had any reason to lie
Do we have the post where fade claimed/full claimed at all?
I would like to point out that under that theory, no one is cleared based on abilities alone. No one.
Last night actually, where AG received cake and CP received flower.
Also, I am now very much interested in pushing for a mass full claim. So many things are out in the open right now and with at the very least two unclaimed abilities, I see a mass full claim more beneficial than not.
I am going to say that I agree with Vampyr on the point that I could very well see Rafk gambiting on the fact that he had been vanillanized by fade. There is an incentive for fade to target Puzzle two nights ago. Since he is town, the only other incentive he could possibly have was to target the masons, and we have seen how both ZDS and Vampyr objected vehemently to such an action. There is absolutely, and I emphasize absolutely no reason for fade to target anyone else, especially an unclaimed player like Rafk last night if fade is town.
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I think a mass claim is probably warranted, but I really, really would like to see Hawkeye lynched first. We already know his claim, and it's nothing inspiring. Seeing whom gets NKed would probably answer alot of questions, as well.
I agree with this statement. I feel like a lot of this is running in circles.
I could definitely see a lot of merit in the theory that the mafia can both use their abilities and kill on the same night. My gut is saying that the way that so many players have been soft-confirmed already by their abilities (in a scenario where mafia cannot do both) along with a group of masons presents too much of an endgame nightmare for game balance.
Whoa, man, it isn't just a theory. Mafia members in Azrael's Sin City used their abilities and killed on the same night- the excellent RafK could not have won that game otherwise. And what a truly rocking win that was!
*plays Glory Days on air guitar*
Your armchair ride of being able to say "I'm not a killer! I'm just a telephone operator!" is totally over.
"if fade is town"? Um, dude, the directory where Azrael writes stuff down is RIGHT THERE.
Reason for fade to target me = fade is suspicious of me and knows I'm not the cop, dude. fade kicked himself in the post-game of Court Mafia for not doing anything about me and DYH when he was suspicious of us.
And like, there's not much risk involved if fade's ability is temporary and he knew it.
Or to put it another way YOUR POINT SUCKS! Wyld Stallyns RULE! *air guitar*
Totally another topic: besides last night, was there ever cake and flower on the same night? Because the best explanation of all on why the scum would waste the cake on AG is if the scum couldn't use the cake anyway.
*crickets*
Because AG would be a lying scum using fake cake to clear himself! It's totally clear, right?
Yes way.
No way, unless the kill choices are completely weird.
Oh, wait. Yes way then!
First, I hate the argument that fade's ability is/was temporary, considering that it's based totally and completely off of flavor speculation. That's not to say that I think it wasn't, but there is no call whatsoever for clearing Raf of SKness on account of this point.
Second of all, Axel claimed to have received Flowers on night 2, according to this, so the flowers and cake are both missing night 3. Regardless, don't forget that the cake makes people untargetable, too: scum might well want to have their cake and eat it too.
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Actually, it's based totally and completely off Puzzle saying it wore off on him.
Puzzle could be a heinous liar, of course. Which looks more likely after his "HAY SCUM GIVE TEH FLOURZ 2 *ME* K THX" moment of bogosity. Which makes it look more likely that I'm permanent vanilla custard or else silenced so that Puzzle isn't exposed, both of which would be totally bogus, dudes.
6 Mafia + 1 SK + 1 Cut Leader + 16 townies is not balanced for the town. That is 8 people we have to lynch.
I already showed the math on this and how it would be completely unbalanced for the town barring some really ridiculous abilities and some expectation for crosskills.
And since we know the mafia had a way to protect themselves from the SK (or atleast, ATL did) then I highly doubt there are 6 mafia. It just doesn't fit.
Or, if there are 6 mafia, there is no SK and the daykiller is in the mafia. Which hardly seems balanced, but it's more likely than 6 mafia + 1 SK.
The cake and flowers are both claimed for Night 2 (my getting the flowers and Xyre getting the Cake). I don't think they can be coming from the same player. I'm also fairly convinced that player isn't Dagger as he also targeted me on Night 2 with the Night Communication thing. That doesn't mean Dagger isn't Mafia, but I think it means he isn't the Cake sending Mafia and he isn't the Flower sending Mafia. With 2 Mafia down, neither of whom appears to be the Cake or Flower sender, that means that Dagger's % chances of being scum are less than almost anyone else's. There may be 3 mafia left, but Dagger could only be one of those three, whereas other players are still candidates for all three.
I asked who people wanted to see dead most (which is like asking who do you want to lynch), but let me ask another question. A hypothetical. Let's say we lynch Hawkeye and he's town. Let's just say for sake of hypothetical.
With that information in mind, who would you want to go after next? You can do it the other way also - if Hawkeye is lynched and comes up scum who do you want next - but I'm more interested at this point in who you would look at if he came up town.
I want to see a dead mason, a dead spoon and a dead Abbey. Not neccesarily in that order.
I'm not sure whom I'm interested in after Hawkeye. Xyre or AG, I think.
Also, is there any reason that Alx's RP-forcing role can't be scum?
Maybe not to see Dances with Wolves, but I'm sure when it comes to The Postman, I'm sure it's a different story.
If HE comes up as scum, I'd like to see Alx be the next target. If HE is town, my first thought was to name Cyan, but thinking about it I think it's Cyan being Cyan. So, I'm not sure who to suggest. I'd have to go back and look to see who else besides Cyan made the biggest push on HE.
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I believe we already went over this.
On a theoretical level, I could be scum, but then the mafia would have a role that investigated Kraj, while getting both rolename and ability with no roleplaying, and another role which quasi-investigates with forced roleplaying. Possible? Yes. Makes sense? Not really.
Well, Xyre almost singlehandidly owened ATL. So if Xyre is scum, he'd have to be the SK. Which is not impossible if the SK is a daykiller and has a night action too.
No, except that if he is we don't have a way of explaining how they knew Kraj was the cult leader. Because if that's the case, it's unlikely they have a role that makes you RP AND another role that lets them determine rolenames.
Unless a member of the mafia was recruited by the cult or something. But IIRC, we the cult leader only had 1 night to recruit and he recruited Fade.
Didn't one of our masons claim to have gained some new ability? Was that Dagger's thing?
He could have easily (a) refused the spoon, which meshed well with his previous play of expressing suspicions of Xyre, or (b) at the very least, tell the truth about taking the spoon.
Neither option a or b seem to be particularly hazardous for him, yes he chose suicide. What gives?
In essence, Atlseal was most likely telling some truth about his role being a JoAT. He just fibbed about needing -2 to lynch, and lied about how the smilies worked. Obviously he didn't plan on getting tripped up by Xyre's role. I would imagine that the abilities he gained were a 1-shot investigation, 1-shot kill dodge, 1-shot vote fog(stands to reason that Atlseal did this himself), and something else, no idea what though.
Why he would take the Spoon from Xyre, I have no clue. Maybe he just figured people wouldn't target him later...which seems pretty stupid. Or, Xyre is lying. Hard to tell.
I forgot about Alx' reaction to Atlseal's claim. That is definitely a big + for him, as far as the likelihood of him being town.
I don't remember Spoon claiming to be protected from kills, but I think that it's a stretch to say that Hvir's role pointed to him being untargetable. If that was the case, why wouldn't he have just said so?