Well, gee, let's see, Dagger targeted me, and I happen to have 4 other players who can vouch for that fact. Do you think we are all lying? Did you decide that you can't just take our collective word for it, must verify it for yourself and therefore completely throw away a potentially valuable resource? Yes, this seems like a solid strategy?
Also there was the flowers, which no one else can vouch that I got, except CP said he also got some later, so presumably they are really in the game (unless, again, we are both lying about it).
You just tried to shoot me, didn't you. Come on, admit it.
And the spoon, which I can repeatedly verify (the fact that I'm out, the flavor PM from Az, etc. etc.)
Why would you need to independently verify something that's old hat?
Well, gee, let's see, Dagger targeted me, and I happen to have 4 other players who can vouch for that fact. Do you think we are all lying? Did you decide that you can't just take our collective word for it, must verify it for yourself and therefore completely throw away a potentially valuable resource? Yes, this seems like a solid strategy?
When do you think I submited my action, chief?
And tell me, who should have been protected today? What claimed power roles do we have? How many of them are a threat to the SK?
Quote from Axelrod »
Also there was the flowers, which no one else can vouch that I got, except CP said he also got some later, so presumably they are really in the game (unless, again, we are both lying about it).
You just tried to shoot me, didn't you. Come on, admit it.
Yes. And then I posted about it afterwards and sent PMs to the moderator demanding an explanation for why you didn't die.
And tell me, who should have been protected today? What claimed power roles do we have? How many of them are a threat to the SK?
A random protect is better than one with virtually no chance of doing anything. What about a Mason? ZDS or Vamp? If they aren't lying then SK and/or Mafia will have to get rid of them eventually. This does not answer why you felt the need to "test" my targetability. Why was that even an issue for you? What did you think or suspect was going on?
Yes. And then I posted about it afterwards and sent PMs to the moderator demanding an explanation for why you didn't die.
This isn't deserving of a response.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
If by "today" you mean "gameday" then yes. At the very beginning. Before dagger claimed his role. All I knew is that one player who wasn't on my list of trusted townies claimed to have targeted you after you got the spoon. I wanted to know for sure. This was long before we had 3-4 people all saying that Dagger's ability was confirmed.
Quote from Axelrod »
A random protect is better than one with virtually no chance of doing anything. What about a Mason? ZDS or Vamp? If they aren't lying then SK and/or Mafia will have to get rid of them eventually. This does not answer why you felt the need to "test" my targetability. Why was that even an issue for you? What did you think or suspect was going on?
Our masons are non-targets because of their drawbacks. The SK can actually lynch them in the end game.
And apparently you're wrong, because my protection target WAS targeted by the SK! So you can't tell me that I made a bad choice... apparently, I didn't.
If by "today" you mean "gameday" then yes. At the very beginning. Before dagger claimed his role. All I knew is that one player who wasn't on my list of trusted townies claimed to have targeted you after you got the spoon. I wanted to know for sure. This was long before we had 3-4 people all saying that Dagger's ability was confirmed.
At the very beginning of the day, there was still Me, Dagger, and Cyan. Were you imagining some grand conspiracy whereby we all conspired (with Xyre, it would have had to be) to make it appear like I am targetable when I'm really not? What kind of stupid conspiracy would that have been?
And apparently you're wrong, because my protection target WAS targeted by the SK! So you can't tell me that I made a bad choice... apparently, I didn't.
Wait, are you now saying you were trying to protect me? I thought you just wanted to test the untargetability? Were you trying to save me too? So you would be both suspicious and not at the same time.
I was a bad choice because if Cyan was telling the truth I wouldn't die. So your protecting was unnecessary. By protecting someone else the town maximizes resources. If Cyan was lying, well, 1-1 trading with scum if I die, which is okay.
You targeting me did nothing.
It's as deserving as your accusation was.
Come on, admit it. It'll be good for your soul.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
At the very beginning of the day, there was still Me, Dagger, and Cyan. Were you imagining some grand conspiracy whereby we all conspired (with Xyre, it would have had to be) to make it appear like I am targetable when I'm really not? What kind of stupid conspiracy would that have been?
No. You and Cyan were not saying ANYTHING about your targetability! Only Dagger was!
Quote from Axelrod »
Wait, are you now saying you were trying to protect me? I thought you just wanted to test the untargetability? Were you trying to save me too? So you would be both suspicious and not at the same time.
I never said I was trying to protect you. I just said apparently I protected the right person.
Quote from Axelrod »
I was a bad choice because if Cyan was telling the truth I wouldn't die. So your protecting was unnecessary. By protecting someone else the town maximizes resources. If Cyan was lying, well, 1-1 trading with scum if I die, which is okay.
You targeting me did nothing.
You don't know that. My role says you cannot die from a daykill under my protection. For all I knew that wouldn't trigger Cyan's bodyguard ability.
Hell, it still might not. I am still waiting for a response from our mod on that messed up scene.
Quote from Axelrod »
Come on, admit it. It'll be good for your soul.
How about I get you a spoon, and you can eat my ass?
If you honestly think there is a chance I am the SK, then I've been planning this roleclaim since day 1. My posts are FULL of hints about my role.
Once I eventually roleclaim my character, it gets even MORE obvious!
The SK has to kill Axelrod eventually. He can't win with Axelrod alive. How is he going to get rid of him? A lynch? He's alone. he can't lynch someone who has a bodyguard.
Axelrod isn't even vaguely a lynch candidate. So the SK is trying to help the mafia get rid of troublesome players who are semi-confirmed.
Yes, but there's a better reason than ever, as of today, to think that the SK doesn't have to make it his problem. You're mistaken that he isn't even vaguely a lynch candidate. Process of elimination, if nothing else, points to him as one of a small number of people who could reasonably be the SK, and other evidence points to him being non-town as well.
This target is too much of a break from the SKs demonstrated behavior to not have a concrete motive of some kind behind it, and while I admit that it's WIFOM, I certainly think that of all people, Axel has the best motive to target Axel.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Of the 14 people alive in this game, at least half are more likely to be SK than Axel.
Plus, I really just see Axel targeting himself just to make me lose a life, just to make himself look like less of a suspect(especially considering that he wasn't really a suspect to begin with, except in your mind). If he is the SK, he can kill me off anytime he wants. There would have been better targets today. If someone else is the SK, though, they're going to have to target me eventually..so why not today? You're seriously grasping at straws here.
Axelrod, is there an actual reason why you're attacking Grak out of the blue ?
Somehow, I don't think "oh noes he protected me when I have a bodyguard" is a sign of scumminess in itself.
It doesn't make sense. And his given reason for doing it especially doesn't make sense.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
It doesn't make sense. And his given reason for doing it especially doesn't make sense.
Are you saying it makes MORE sense for me to be lying?
Are you suggesting it's implaussible that you and I would disagree about the best course of action in a game of mafia? lolz. Cause like, that never happens, right?
Axel, I think you're acting really irrationally right now. Irrationally like you did in the recently ended Pirates 2 on mtgnews. Just some food for thought.
Eh. Axel was scum in that game, and late in the game got targeted by a Vig(the vigging failed, but still). The way he reacted to it was very irrational/hostile, and similar to how he is acting now. In fairness, in that game he genuinely seemed mad, he didn't try to provoke the person that targeted him like he's doing with Grak.
To clarify, no I don't think he is scum now, just that the way he's acting doesn't make any sense, and I just want him to calm down before some opportunistic scum tries to use him as a scapegoat to take attention away from their scum buddy, Hawkeye.
Azrael just PMed me, letting me know that I still have 2 lives. I suspect that we'll be seeing some kind of retraction/correction regarding today's earlier events(especially since Az is viewing this thread now). And if Grak's ability proves true(which seems likely), it FURTHER proves that Axel isn't the SK. Because, even if he was the SK and got whisked away to some other 'location', he could still target himself. Though seriously, the idea of an SK being able to self-target is pretty retarded anyway.
Not long after the town reconvenes, Axelrod's condition takes a turn for the worse. His hand was almost severed by the fall, shock is setting in, and the bleeding won't stop. As Cyan leaves to find fuel for a fire to cauterize the wound, a helicopter swings into view from behind a nearby skyscraper. Fearing the worst, the town scrambles to the lower levels.
Everyone makes it in time. Everyone except Axelrod.
Two uniformed men grab him and lift him onto the helicopter. Then, someone else steps down. The helicopter swings away and departs.
Left standing on the top floor is a completely uninjured Axelrod.
Well, not exactly the flavor I was expecting, but close enough. In theory, he wasn't supposed to be here to be killed at all. He was supposed to have been airlifted out some time ago. But obv this works better than changing history.
It's good enough to put everything else to rest, particularly with Azrael telling me that I still have both lives. Enough of this diversion, let's get back to more important things now.
I think Hawkeye is at 4 or 5 votes...a vote count would be great, and maybe a full claim from him.
5 Not Voting-Axelrod, Hawkeye7, Xyre, Dagger, Vampyr
With 14 alive, it's 8 to lynch.
Sorry about the sloppiness going on lately, folks. I've been stranded away from the computer containing my notes for the past week and a half, so it's been tough to coordinate all the player actions from memory alone. Everything should return to normal soon.
Very well. That doesn't clear things up as well as I would have liked, but I'm fine with moving on for the time being. Waiting for a fullclaim from HE7.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Question out to Az. but that would seem fairly conclusive that Grakthis "protected" me. Fairly definitively making him not SK.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
It's good enough to put everything else to rest, particularly with Azrael telling me that I still have both lives. Enough of this diversion, let's get back to more important things now.
I think Hawkeye is at 4 or 5 votes...a vote count would be great, and maybe a full claim from him.
I've actually been preoccupied and haven't veiwed the thread since early Saturday. I hope that everyone other then Cyan will at least allow me to respond to Cyan's masterpiece of logical and deductive reasoning before voting to lynch me. Please. I also hope that everyone other then Cyan will actually read my responses.
Thank you.
Cyan, I see you finally scrounged up the guts to try to actually make a case against me instead of your ineffectual sniping all game long that I'm scummy.
Well, I for one, appreciate you doing as I have asked you more then once to do and I do appreciate how difficult it must have been for you. It's not easy to completely misinterperate and/or misrepresent my posts. Especially as it is clear that you have no idea what I was doing or what I am doing now.
I will post my response to the PBPA shortly. As for a complete claim, well I have already done it. Since I haven't yet read through your PBPA yet, I have to ask, do you think I am lying about what I have claimed? If not it makes no sense to ask me to completely claim. I have already done so. You have my role name and my ability. What more is it you are looking for?
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RELAPSED MAFIA JUNKIE
W – 33, L – 19, Broke Games - 9
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
You can just feel the derisive, sarcastic, hostility coming from Hawkeye there. What a pro-town behavior.
As for your claim, I'm having a hard time meshing Truman with the ability to force someone to change their avatar once. Nevermind how lame/seemingly useless that ability is, it's easy enough for one of your scum buddies to pretend that Azrael forced them to change their avatar, etc. Plus, if the avatar change actually does anything, you neglected to tell us that part. In essence, I think you're lying about the full extent of your role.
I still don't agree with your reasoning. We may, however, have lucked into the best case scenario due to mod error. Cyan's ability is confirmed and he's still got his lives.
Who would you like to die now?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Whoa, dudes, lots has happened overnight for once!
Still totally happy with the vote on Hawkeye.
You know the little Grakthis-Axelrod-Cyan theatre that just happened? From Ted 'Theodore' Logan's point of view... all that happened is we got a scene in the thread "confirming" the identity of the bogus Cyan and Axelrod (without confirming alignments). And then after mucho complainingo a scene in the thread apparently confirming Grakthis' story.
Is it just me, or is there way too much "confirming" going on in this game without any actual confirming, if you know what I mean?
I totally believed Axel and Cyan were who they said they were anyway. This little piece of drama does nothing. I didn't buy into the idea that Axel was SK, more that he and Cyan were some kind of bogus neutral survivors or heinous neutrals with a goal of lynching particular people, but... I don't see much reason for an SK to shoot Axel. On the other hand, knowing that he was protected, faking an attack on himself would be a most excellent tactic, and exactly the kind of thing Axel would think of.
I reckon this clears the most noble Sir Grak though.
Whoa, dudes, lots has happened overnight for once!
Still totally happy with the vote on Hawkeye.
You know the little Grakthis-Axelrod-Cyan theatre that just happened? From Ted 'Theodore' Logan's point of view... all that happened is we got a scene in the thread "confirming" the identity of the bogus Cyan and Axelrod (without confirming alignments). And then after mucho complainingo a scene in the thread apparently confirming Grakthis' story.
Is it just me, or is there way too much "confirming" going on in this game without any actual confirming, if you know what I mean?
I totally believed Axel and Cyan were who they said they were anyway. This little piece of drama does nothing. I didn't buy into the idea that Axel was SK, more that he and Cyan were some kind of bogus neutral survivors or heinous neutrals with a goal of lynching particular people, but... I don't see much reason for an SK to shoot Axel. On the other hand, knowing that he was protected, faking an attack on himself would be a most excellent tactic, and exactly the kind of thing Axel would think of.
I reckon this clears the most noble Sir Grak though.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
We have 2 less possibilities as SK suspects, as well.
Something else, Hawkeye. If your whole role is Truman and you can just force someone to change their avatar one time, how did you know anything about locations, and why was Hvir not picking up on your 'clues' about them enough for you to lynch them if they apparently mean nothing in regard to your role? Also, if you are Truman, why did you constantly roleplay as The Director? Why not just act goofy and make useless statements like, 'Good Morning, and in case I don't see you, good afternoon, good evening, and good night?'. Or just act paranoid. Or whatever. Your roleplaying doesn't synch up with your claim, which doesn't make alot of sense anyway.
We have 2 less possibilities as SK suspects, as well.
Something else, Hawkeye. If your whole role is Truman and you can just force someone to change their avatar one time, how did you know anything about locations, and why was Hvir not picking up on your 'clues' about them enough for you to lynch them if they apparently mean nothing in regard to your role? Also, if you are Truman, why did you constantly roleplay as The Director? Why not just act goofy and make useless statements like, 'Good Morning, and in case I don't see you, good afternoon, good evening, and good night?'. Or just act paranoid. Or whatever. Your roleplaying doesn't synch up with your claim, which doesn't make alot of sense anyway.
How did I Know about the locations?
How did you not?
Maybe I think like Azrael or maybe I flatter myself that I do. I have said on many occations posted that I play this game intuitively. There are times that I simply know things and I honestly can't explain how I do. It just struck me as a perfect aspect to this game that should be there. As to why Hvir did not pick up on the clues I dropped I can't say. I don't know. I thought I was fairly obvious and direct in trying to get a discussion of the locations going. I directly questioned him about it and I still maintain that if his role is as he described, then he misplayed that part. I did not constantly roleplay as the director. I used the director to frame the post as an episode of the Truman Show and the content of the post to build my unclaimed role claim.
Why not do what?
Say goofy things like what?
Why don't you ask Azrael why he put all the work he did into designing this game? He has crafted a game that some will not truely appreciate. I wanted to try my best to do his work justice.
Honestly, if I can make someone think about what they are reading and see what deeper meaning there is beyond the obvious then I am happy. I simply have to rely on the ability of players to pick up on what I am trying to tell them. Many players do and I hope that they see some value in it. Some people simply can't or don't.
Anyway, thanks for posting so I can post this first part of my response to your PBPA.
Not meaningless, but it is roleplaying. As I mentioned earlier I had a theory that moving in the game setting would possibly be of importance and this was my first post that talked about the group moving. It also was the start of what I thought was pretty obvious bread crumbing of my role character.
Apparently serious vote on Carrion Pigeons, without even the most remote explanation of it.
2nd attempt to get the idea of moving around out there and possibly discussed. If it was a machanic in the game I wanted to see if anyone would respond before simply blurting out my theory. I will honestly try not to take gratuitis swipes at Cyan for his lack if insight or his blatant misrepresenting my posts.
Here he says I gave “Apparently serious vote on Carrion Pigeons, without even the most remote explanation of it.” now, I ask you , how can you not see why I voted for CP from what I posted?
This is what I posted:
If anyone is interested, I’ve been listening.
To your discussion, and to your game and if I were playing the game I’d rank you people this way in terms of liability or likelihood of being mafia.
Most likely to least likely, but......, you know what?, maybe it isn't such a good Idea to come right out and list all of you.
Here, this is the most suspicous and the least as I see it.
carrion pigeons -7
Gratis +5
Now this is as of post #127. I’m reading from there on to see how much this might change. Sorry if this looks a little, well anal, it’s what I do. I mean what I do for a living, you know numbers, risk assessments, stuff like that. I'll tell you what though. The second most suspicous player is a real surprise. I'm keeping a special eye on him.
Anyway, since you guys all seem set on playing this game
I’ll VOTE: Carrion Pigeons
and start trying to head outside.”
Hawkeye7 then moves off actively looking for a way out of the Mall.
It is obvious that I went through the thread and assigned a numerical rating to each post based on how I viewed the post in relation to it being suspicious or not.
I ask you, does it seem like I voted for CP without the most remote explaination of it?
Mostly meaningless roleplaying, as is the norm with Hawkeye up to this point. He does try to casually discredit CP's apparent townieness, though.
Hmmmm, I don’t think I’m reading the same post as you here Cyan. I complimented Raf on a choice post he made questioning Xyre. I continued to build my unclaimed role claim by directly quoting a line from the movie my character is from, I directly asked people in the game what their experience has been with multi votes and that role being non-townie, and I voiced my support for the masons to remain hidden. I know you completely missed my role clue but to characterize this post of mine as meaningless roleplaying and the only thing of note is a minor attempt to discredit CP is simply missing the mark by 2/3’s. Meaning, there where three points made in this post and you either missed or ignored two of them.
Seems to be baiting DYH into stating that the other mason should come forward. Doesn't actually express his own thoughts on this, however. Also, no idea what the '816KAZ' means.
I really must try to be more obvious in what I post. I, again, alluded to my role character by the use of the term risk management in a sarcastic question to DHY that was indeed baiting. But since I had already come out and clearly stated I did not think the Masons should come out and claim, the meaning of that statement was to try to get DHY to come out and clearly state whether or not he thought they should.
Cyan, Did you completely miss the post where I answered the question as to what 816KAZ is? If you did here is the answer I gave. Google it. Again building on the unclaimed role claim for my character.
Points out that Xyre's PBPA of Loran was completely negative. Subtle defense of Loran(known scum). Barns Loran's statement that I was playing different. Barns Grak's PBPA of me. Interesting enough, that PBPA was also completely negative, and was moreso negative than Xyre's of Loran. Apparently, it's not okay for Loran(known scum) to get attacked in this fashion, but it's okay for me to. Still tries to keep suspicion on CP, even though he never once remotely explained why he's suspicious of him in the first place.
At this point in the game I had no Idea Loran was definitely scum. The point the made that I agreed with was valid and I still agree with it. I disagree that the the PBPA that Grak did was as entirely negative as Xyres was. I do think that at this point in the game you had been playing differently and since you had not yet claimed I saw that difference and the valid points I saw in Grak’s PBPA more then enough to justify my voting for you. Frankly, it is only Axe’s confirmation of some of the points of your claim that makes you less of a suspect now.
Subtlely backs up atlseal's claim with a post that doesn't really make any sense..
Does not make sense to you?
Let me ask you a question Cyan. If this post does not make any sense to you, then how do you know I was being subtle?
You are rightly looking at this post with reading glasses of hindsight but you are not also thinking of what was known at that time in the game. This was the first possible confirmation of a role in the game like mine that did not draw from the Matrix Universe. I believed the claim but not that it cleared Atlseal as a townie. Only that his name claim was probably true.
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RELAPSED MAFIA JUNKIE
W – 33, L – 19, Broke Games - 9
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
I still don't agree with your reasoning. We may, however, have lucked into the best case scenario due to mod error. Cyan's ability is confirmed and he's still got his lives.
Who would you like to die now?
Honestly, I am pretty well stuck.
HE's role is extremely plausible for scum, but behaviorally I had no issues with him till about the last few game days. It seems like he should have tripped my radar earlier.
CP has the 2nd most likely ROLE to be scum, but his behavior is as pro-town as could possibly be.
Rafael has been extremely pro-town, there's no way I'd buy him as mafia. The SK is possible, but that would be EXCEPTIONALLY ballsy for him to claim to have been vanilla'd if he wasn't actually vanilla'd and then we had an SK kill so we should be able to rule that out.
Abbey could be scum simply on that basis that he hasn't given me any townie tells. I know that's very lukewarm, but a lack of townie tells this late in the game is approaching statistical significance. But I've never caught Abbey as scum, and maybe never seen him as scum. So i'm not feeling really confident on that.
I've made my case on Dagger.
Spoon has been getting by on the fact that we keep assuming someone who's role draws so much attention to itself cannot be scum (i.e. he is seemingly a gimmick account) but you know, there was once an SK in a game on ML who actually had two roles. He posted as both and both had to be killed to get rid of him. Just a thought. Remember the two twins from reloaded? Thinking outloud here.
Xyre caught mafia and has a proven ability. I don't see lynching him as being anything short of stupid.
We have two claimed masons, and if we don't have a cop, the only way to verify them is to kill one of them. The way vampyr claimed though strikes me as VERY honest. Like, why risk yourself there when ZDS was in real danger of going down?
Puzzle's behavior when he first jumped in was very aggressive and very naughty, but he cleaned up after that. But now he's conveniently dodging answering our questions and we have some issues with Charm_Master apparently. These need to be dealt with.
I have very little on Alx except that he had a string of pro-town posts and behaviors that stood up to scrutiny, so he's not high on my list.
I guess at this point I'd be happy with a mass claim and/or seeing one of Puzzle, Spoon, HE or Abbey die.
CP has the 2nd most likely ROLE to be scum, but his behavior is as pro-town as could possibly be.
Uh, this is new. I would have figured that if I was going to come under fire for anything, it wouldn't be because of my claim. How is a role that is demonstrably capable, as scum, of winning if it survives by itself to the final 5, even if the masons don't live to the end, and the final 9 if they both do, the second most likely role to be scum in the game?
Anyway, is anyone especially believing HAWKEYE's claim? Because if I'm going to be the last few votes on him, I'm happy to demonstrate them anytime. Just let me know, and someone will need to vote me so I have a third vote.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Thanks for the post.
Next couple of responses. I hope to get to somethings that i have noticed about other players the Cyan when i am done with this response. Unfortunately, I have found that if I stop to address any other topic it will count against me. So, back to eht PBPA.
Subtlely attacks CP for CP's disagreement with atlseal's wagon evaporating(pretty telling, since we know now that atlseal was scum). Interesting, in light of his last post. Of course, he's all too willing to try to steer CP towards voting me, even though he apparently disagrees with CP unvoting atlseal.
I questioned how an Agent could be town. I voiced encouragement to Spoon, Raf and Xyre leading the discussion at this point of the game.
It was not Atl’s wagon evaporating that I attacked CP for it was the fact that there were two bandwagons Alt’s and Yours Cyan that evaporated at near the same time that CP was lamenting but oddly enough he was not a part of either. He had his vote on Sutherlands. If either of those bandwagons were really of interest to him why did he not put his vote where his mouth was and vote for either? How is it that you have completely misread this post to eliminate yourself from the discussion and how is it that you completely missed what I was really attacking CP for?
Again tries to throw dirt on CP, with the insinuation that CP was involved in killing Arimnaes, because he wanted to make atlseal look bad. Again this is highly relevant, knowing that atlseal is scum.
Again, building the unclaimed role claim. I pointed out to Xyre that there was at least one other possibility to the question he was commenting on, what Arim’s post told us about who might have wanted him dead at that point in the game. I did say that CP could have done it to make Atlseal look bad. I stand by this. Yes, in hindsight, with the knowledge we have now that Atlseal was scum this looks bad. It is still possible. It is unlikely but it is possible that one scum was distancing himself from another . I admit it is a long shot and if you want to use my possibly being wrong here to build your case against me then I say you have a board you can build with.
No. There is not the same implications as in my last post. I pointed out to Xyre and everyone in the game that Arim’s death was an event that needed to be analyzed. I posted how I thought it should be analyzed and I stand by this post.
I disagree. The Cheshire Cat, imo, is a perfect example of a literary character that examplifies exactly what the Matrix is, illiusion. It is there. It fades from reality. Is it real or a figment of your imagination? A subconscious projection that is the voice of your inner mind or a real cat that smiles, talks in riddles and parables and when he has had his say he fades from reality behind a dazzling smile? And there is the Lewis Carrol link element already built into the film. How perfect a choice.
As you can tell, I've had A LOT of time, a lifetime really, to look at my reality and question if it is real. Still not sure, but I am sure that the calim makes Me Smile.
I have already stated why I initially thought that Atlseal’s name claim was true. I too had a role outside of the Matrix universe. Here I give more reasons why I thought it was a perfect choice of a role in this game. I say again, this does not mean that the role is town. At this point I did not have atlseal as either town or mafia.
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HE's role is extremely plausible for scum, but behaviorally I had no issues with him till about the last few game days. It seems like he should have tripped my radar earlier.
Heinous. Totally.
CP has the 2nd most likely ROLE to be scum, but his behavior is as pro-town as could possibly be.
Excellent way of putting it, dude. His day 1 "look at me, I'm Sandra Dee" flaunting aside.
Abbey could be scum simply on that basis that he hasn't given me any townie tells. I know that's very lukewarm, but a lack of townie tells this late in the game is approaching statistical significance. But I've never caught Abbey as scum, and maybe never seen him as scum. So i'm not feeling really confident on that.
I should check if I've seen Abbey as scum anywhere.
Anyone seen my phone box?
I've made my case on Dagger.
Just as long as you don't slam a case shut on your own dagger, heh heh. That's totally painful.
Um, but to be serious for just a second, my view on Dagger is... one of those roles that's "confirmed" without being confirmed. And not a massive contributor. Not a lot of scummy stuff, but not many signs of rocking out *air guitar*
Spoon has been getting by on the fact that we keep assuming someone who's role draws so much attention to itself cannot be scum (i.e. he is seemingly a gimmick account)
Yep.
Is it just me, Spoon and AG who haven't claimed? I'm game if they are. After 5 days, the mystery of the cutlery is getting totally old.
Also, I want to find out if he's the CROPMAN, becuase the CROPMAN is EXCELLENT (he might be bogus or not, I dunno, but he's still EXCELLENT!).
Xyre caught mafia and has a proven ability. I don't see lynching him as being anything short of stupid.
Yes way indeed, dude.
We have two claimed masons, and if we don't have a cop, the only way to verify them is to kill one of them. The way vampyr claimed though strikes me as VERY honest. Like, why risk yourself there when ZDS was in real danger of going down?
ZDS-Vamp-Xyre are the actually confirmed peeps to me. That none of them died today kinda shocks me. Of course -2 to lynch stuff etc etc, but still.
Puzzle's behavior when he first jumped in was very aggressive and very naughty
Standard for him. Even townier for him. He's a tricksy hobbit when he's being heinous, my precious.
But now he's conveniently dodging answering our questions
That's WAY harsh, man. A dude's got to live where a dude's got to live.
I have very little on Alx except that he had a string of pro-town posts and behaviors that stood up to scrutiny, so he's not high on my list.
Kinda.
I rate him with cp, but less so. An ability that really should be bogus (we had a town donut-eater; an information role that doesn't need to get alignment is kind of pro-bogusity), but behaviour less excellent than cp.
I hope to get to somethings that i have noticed about other players the Cyan when i am done with this response. Unfortunately, I have found that if I stop to address any other topic it will count against me.
The Emperor Napoleon once told me something, dude. Don't make bogus plays for sympathy- it cuts no ice with French Empress babes or mafia players.
Thanks for the post.
I hope to get to somethings that i have noticed about other players the Cyan when i am done with this response. Unfortunately, I have found that if I stop to address any other topic it will count against me. So, back to eht PBPA.
The Emperor Napoleon once told me something, dude. Don't make bogus plays for sympathy- it cuts no ice with French Empress babes or mafia players.
Easy for you to say, Dude, with no compelling need to address a lengthy PBPA facing you.
Dude, you sure it was Napoleon and not Caesar?
I honestly don't understand anything in this post.
Sigh……….
This is one of my favorite posts and it says so much. I am trying not to repost what I originally posted as much as possible, but this one deserves to be reprinted.
(Ok, I want him to stop right in front of the Grakthis-O-Matic Miracle Slicer, Dicer advertisment. I don't care how you do it. Dropped dollar, lost puppy it doesn't matter. Just do it.)
"Hey! Is That a Sacajawea dollar coin?"
(Stops, stoops and picks up coin.)
"This must be My lucky day!"
"Bad logic. You can't any further away from the truth before you are forced to come back."
"On the money post Grakthis."
"I've been thinking. You know, about Arimnaes and why he was killed. From what I hear he was one of the players that was really putting some effort into doing this "Roleplaying" thing. And again, I've heard that this "game" was designed to have an element built into it for "Roleplaying", you know, like it was a designed part of the "Game" and was supposed to happen.
So, I was thinking, could a players ability vary depending on the amount of roleplaying that player did? More roleplaying, stronger ability?"
"It's just a thought. Those agents in the movies, well some of them seemed to get stronger the the others, sort of."
Ok, there is a recurring scene in the movie of Truman being stopped in front of various advertising posters for what amounted to product placement commercials. This is a parody of that. I thought it was rather well done.
This second part is what I find very surprising that Cyan could not even pick up on. How did you miss this Cyan?
I speculate a little more openly now on another theory I had about the game and the role playing in it. My role indicated nothing about roleplaying or it’s effect on the game. I come right out and state this. How did you not understand it Cyan?
We knew from the get go that it did have some effect on the game and there were a couple of other players who were roleplaying early on besides myself. As it turns out we now know there is some mechanic that may or may not cause or force a player to roleplay. I have never roleplayed in this game for any other reason then I wanted to.
No, not meaningless.
This is by far the most obvious unclaimed role claim building post directly quoting the movie and it responded to ZDS’s speculation regarding roleplaying.
Disagrees with fade's assessment that Arimnaes' was being aggressive. I didn't really see why he would feel the need to mention this, but then later it becomes more clear when he tries to put the onus of suspicion on fade. And of course, he again asserts that I'm scummy, without ever explaining why(beyond his initial 'I agree with Grak's PBPA, even though said PBPA was hundreds of posts prior to this)..
Wow, I am surprised that you caught this Cyan. Earlier in the game, when I said I found CP the most suspicous player in the game and voted for him I also said that the second most suspicious player was a bit of a surprise to me and that I would keep an eye on him. That player is Fade.
You do see why I did not come right out and voice my suspicion of Fade or why I question him regarding why he made the statements he made, right Cyan?
Here, I come out and question points he was making about Arim. Not only that I also comment on a very odd paragraph Fade made and I still stand by it. Fade basically says he is having a hard time digesting the data in this game. Almost as if he wants to build an excuse for why he is not contributing more to the game. I said this was an “unFade” like statement and it is.
Once again Cyan, how could you so completely miss the real point I was making in this post? Especially when I made no effort to hide this one.
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Alx: could you explain one thing (and sorry if you already explained this): your ability, it forces players to role-play as what exactly?
Roleplay as their true role, of course. I wouldn't be much of a "revealer" otherwise. I believe DYH confirmed this on the day he was affected. I don't have the time to seek out the quote right now, but he said he has to "represent his true self" or something like that.
Jesus Christ, Hawkeye. Your entire response essentially says 'yeah I meant something with all of those posts, omg I can't believe you don't know what it is'. Nowhere do you really explain WHAT you meant though. Or at least, not to any extent that is remotely satisfactory. It doesn't matter that you think you expressed it well enough, it matters that other people don't. In my eyes, you just used roleplaying as a shield to avoid actively participating early in the game, and as time progressed, you continually focused on insignificant issues instead of addressing the game at hand. This is particularly relevant when this happened most while 2 mafia were being lynched. Seriously, these rebuttal posts are just as dodgy and unhelpful as everything else you've posted so far.
Personally, I think Hawkeye is a great lynch today. He has acted thoroughly scummy when it really mattered, and his claim is uninspiring at best.
Axel, if you can just kill him somehow(you appear to have aluded to this a couple of times, though you might want to get an update on that now that we know that Grak's ability worked as it should), that would be even better. Then maybe we can get rid of 2 scum today.
Uh, this is new. I would have figured that if I was going to come under fire for anything, it wouldn't be because of my claim. How is a role that is demonstrably capable, as scum, of winning if it survives by itself to the final 5, even if the masons don't live to the end, and the final 9 if they both do, the second most likely role to be scum in the game?
Anyway, is anyone especially believing HAWKEYE's claim? Because if I'm going to be the last few votes on him, I'm happy to demonstrate them anytime. Just let me know, and someone will need to vote me so I have a third vote.
Your role punishes people who are voting for you. It's a defense mechanism. As a townie role, it's completely useless. It doesn't increase our total votes and doesn't improve our chances of lynching scum, As a scum role, it's a weapon against the town. Town votes for scum, scum uses those votes on someone else.
Like, in a five player end game, if 2 of the town think you're scum and 2 of the town are undecided, you only need ONE of the two remaining to agree with you to get a lynch.
I disagree, Grak. The way CP's described his role, he's basically a conditional triple-voter. If you look at it that way, there's no way that would be balanced for a mafioso. If there's anything about CP that makes me uncertain, it's his play, not his claim.
I disagree, Grak. The way CP's described his role, he's basically a conditional triple-voter. If you look at it that way, there's no way that would be balanced for a mafioso. If there's anything about CP that makes me uncertain, it's his play, not his claim.
He's only a tripple voter IFF there are 3 people voting for him.
So only if he's being attacked. I mean, it's clearly strong for scum (he's got 3 votes on him, it's 4 to lynch, to he throws his 3 votes onto random guy who already has 1 vote on him) but it's almost useless if he's town. it's only useful if he is smarter than the rest of the town.
Can Dagger use his claimed ability to bring Charm_Master into tonights "group" discussion to find out what he was talking about before?
Yes, with 7b, it should be possible.
Also, I asked Azrael once before what would happen if I targeted Puzzle, and he replied that I can only speak with whoever is currently possessing the 'Oracle' role. That meant that if Puzzle rotated out, I would only be able to speak with the next person in line. I have always assumed that meant Limbo is off-limit. (I only recalled this)
Obviously now with 7b, I am going to ask him again, could I specifically target Puzzle in Limbo instead of the 'Oracle' role itself? I should think can.
Of course, tonight would be spent on CM, as most requested.
Also, the scenes Az written up pretty much confirmed Grak's ability.
I'll need sometime to read Cyan's case and HE's responses, but it seems pretty much that the majority is favoring HE as a lynch right now, explanations given or not.
Jesus Christ, Hawkeye. Your entire response essentially says 'yeah I meant something with all of those posts, omg I can't believe you don't know what it is'. Nowhere do you really explain WHAT you meant though. Or at least, not to any extent that is remotely satisfactory. It doesn't matter that you think you expressed it well enough, it matters that other people don't. In my eyes, you just used roleplaying as a shield to avoid actively participating early in the game, and as time progressed, you continually focused on insignificant issues instead of addressing the game at hand. This is particularly relevant when this happened most while 2 mafia were being lynched. Seriously, these rebuttal posts are just as dodgy and unhelpful as everything else you've posted so far.
Personally, I think Hawkeye is a great lynch today. He has acted thoroughly scummy when it really mattered, and his claim is uninspiring at best.
Axel, if you can just kill him somehow(you appear to have aluded to this a couple of times, though you might want to get an update on that now that we know that Grak's ability worked as it should), that would be even better. Then maybe we can get rid of 2 scum today.
Nice language.
I'm at work right now and won't be able to post again till tonight, but I will be posting again tonight for sure.
Let’s see.
You finally, after all this time of sniping that I’m scummy and being asked to put forth a case, you come up with a PBPA that goes over each of my posts and supposedly explains why you think I’m scummy. That’s all well and good. I’m more then willing to have anyone call me scummy as long as they go on record and explain why so I can either explain to them why they are wrong or challenge then if I think they are trying to misrepresent my posts. You critiqued 88 posts of mine in you attempt to finally show why you have been saying I’m scummy all game and I have responded to only a handful so far. Already you are trying to shut down my response to you PBPA.
Why is that?
If you are confident in your case, you should not be afraid of any response I make. If I try to mischaracterize your response it should glaringly show up and reinforce your point that I’m scummy. As it is I think that you are afraid that I will continue to show just how wrong and in some cases, clueless you are regarding what you have read. I also think that the fact that in just the few posts I have responded to I have show that you have completely ignored what is pretty obvious points I have made and tried to focus on things you pretend to not understand, at least I hope you are pretending, as proof that I am scummy.
So, I ask you Cyan, are you going to answer the questions I asked you in the responses I made? I’m betting not.
Are you going to keep trying to shut down my responses to your PBPA or will you let me finish? Again, I’m betting not.
I’ll put this question to the rest of you. Should I respond to each item in Cyan’s PBPA? Also does anyone see the difference in what Cyan tried to characterize as scummy about my posts and the responses I have made explaining what really was there?
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Also, I asked Azrael once before what would happen if I targeted Puzzle, and he replied that I can only speak with whoever is currently possessing the 'Oracle' role. That meant that if Puzzle rotated out, I would only be able to speak with the next person in line. I have always assumed that meant Limbo is off-limit. (I only recalled this)
Obviously now with 7b, I am going to ask him again, could I specifically target Puzzle in Limbo instead of the 'Oracle' role itself? I should think can.
Of course, tonight would be spent on CM, as most requested.
Also, the scenes Az written up pretty much confirmed Grak's ability.
I'll need sometime to read Cyan's case and HE's responses, but it seems pretty much that the majority is favoring HE as a lynch right now, explanations given or not.
Well, we know you can TARGET him. The question is can he TALK from Limbo.
So be sure to be extremely specific on this... don't just ask if you can bring him into your Favorite 5. Ask him if CM will be able to TALK while in Limbo.
Re: the HE7 responses - My issue is that in his response to the PBPA he essentially keeps explaining all of his roleplaying and breadcrumbing. My question is, why was he breadcrumbing so much? I mean, the RPing we know. But why such blatant breadcrumbs? Ok, we get it, you were showing us your role. But WHY?
@Grak : Unless I understood wrong, CP said his votes don't disappear when he's unvotted. So he basically has a "normal" multivote that just needs some set up.
I was under the impression that if he was unvoted then his votes dissapear as well. But I guess I just assumed that. He should probably elaborate.
First, I have my own vote, in addition to any extra votes, so your example, Grak, does not work like you think. If I'm scum and there are 5 people left, then I win if I can post in between the 2nd and third votes by triple-voting a random player, because I only need two people to vote me to get up to my maximum number of votes.
Second, you are correct, my votes only last for as long as I'm being voted.
I've basically thought of my role as similar to a vig role, in that most of the time it's only really worth using if I'm really sure about someone.
Now, are we just going to wait for HE7 to finish his responses, or do we have something else to talk about? How about this: Hawkeye, you're under suspicion primarily for a lousy voting record and an unlikely and incomprehensible role. If you have anything to counter those, feel free to take a break from Cyan to let us know. That way, we can discuss any issues that might actually matter, and get on with lynching you, or not.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Well, yeah. I wasn't comparing the two in terms of effect on the game, just on the mentality of the role. And yes, quite obviously, the role is a lot stronger for the mafia. Most non-investigative roles are.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
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And the spoon, which I can repeatedly verify (the fact that I'm out, the flavor PM from Az, etc. etc.)
Why would you need to independently verify something that's old hat?
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When do you think I submited my action, chief?
And tell me, who should have been protected today? What claimed power roles do we have? How many of them are a threat to the SK?
Yes. And then I posted about it afterwards and sent PMs to the moderator demanding an explanation for why you didn't die.
The spoon was what we thought might have made him untargetable. derf.
Sometime today?
A random protect is better than one with virtually no chance of doing anything. What about a Mason? ZDS or Vamp? If they aren't lying then SK and/or Mafia will have to get rid of them eventually. This does not answer why you felt the need to "test" my targetability. Why was that even an issue for you? What did you think or suspect was going on?
This isn't deserving of a response.
If by "today" you mean "gameday" then yes. At the very beginning. Before dagger claimed his role. All I knew is that one player who wasn't on my list of trusted townies claimed to have targeted you after you got the spoon. I wanted to know for sure. This was long before we had 3-4 people all saying that Dagger's ability was confirmed.
Our masons are non-targets because of their drawbacks. The SK can actually lynch them in the end game.
And apparently you're wrong, because my protection target WAS targeted by the SK! So you can't tell me that I made a bad choice... apparently, I didn't.
It's as deserving as your accusation was.
At the very beginning of the day, there was still Me, Dagger, and Cyan. Were you imagining some grand conspiracy whereby we all conspired (with Xyre, it would have had to be) to make it appear like I am targetable when I'm really not? What kind of stupid conspiracy would that have been?
Wait, are you now saying you were trying to protect me? I thought you just wanted to test the untargetability? Were you trying to save me too? So you would be both suspicious and not at the same time.
I was a bad choice because if Cyan was telling the truth I wouldn't die. So your protecting was unnecessary. By protecting someone else the town maximizes resources. If Cyan was lying, well, 1-1 trading with scum if I die, which is okay.
You targeting me did nothing.
Come on, admit it. It'll be good for your soul.
No. You and Cyan were not saying ANYTHING about your targetability! Only Dagger was!
I never said I was trying to protect you. I just said apparently I protected the right person.
You don't know that. My role says you cannot die from a daykill under my protection. For all I knew that wouldn't trigger Cyan's bodyguard ability.
Hell, it still might not. I am still waiting for a response from our mod on that messed up scene.
How about I get you a spoon, and you can eat my ass?
If you honestly think there is a chance I am the SK, then I've been planning this roleclaim since day 1. My posts are FULL of hints about my role.
Once I eventually roleclaim my character, it gets even MORE obvious!
Hey, you're the one who said it would be a good idea to go SK-hunting today. You just didn't think it would be you, I'm sure.
So no, I maintain that I do not think you are mafia.
Yes, but there's a better reason than ever, as of today, to think that the SK doesn't have to make it his problem. You're mistaken that he isn't even vaguely a lynch candidate. Process of elimination, if nothing else, points to him as one of a small number of people who could reasonably be the SK, and other evidence points to him being non-town as well.
This target is too much of a break from the SKs demonstrated behavior to not have a concrete motive of some kind behind it, and while I admit that it's WIFOM, I certainly think that of all people, Axel has the best motive to target Axel.
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Plus, I really just see Axel targeting himself just to make me lose a life, just to make himself look like less of a suspect(especially considering that he wasn't really a suspect to begin with, except in your mind). If he is the SK, he can kill me off anytime he wants. There would have been better targets today. If someone else is the SK, though, they're going to have to target me eventually..so why not today? You're seriously grasping at straws here.
Can we please go back to looking at Hawkeye now?
It doesn't make sense. And his given reason for doing it especially doesn't make sense.
Are you saying it makes MORE sense for me to be lying?
Are you suggesting it's implaussible that you and I would disagree about the best course of action in a game of mafia? lolz. Cause like, that never happens, right?
To clarify, no I don't think he is scum now, just that the way he's acting doesn't make any sense, and I just want him to calm down before some opportunistic scum tries to use him as a scapegoat to take attention away from their scum buddy, Hawkeye.
Azrael just PMed me, letting me know that I still have 2 lives. I suspect that we'll be seeing some kind of retraction/correction regarding today's earlier events(especially since Az is viewing this thread now). And if Grak's ability proves true(which seems likely), it FURTHER proves that Axel isn't the SK. Because, even if he was the SK and got whisked away to some other 'location', he could still target himself. Though seriously, the idea of an SK being able to self-target is pretty retarded anyway.
Everyone makes it in time. Everyone except Axelrod.
Two uniformed men grab him and lift him onto the helicopter. Then, someone else steps down. The helicopter swings away and departs.
Left standing on the top floor is a completely uninjured Axelrod.
I think Hawkeye is at 4 or 5 votes...a vote count would be great, and maybe a full claim from him.
1 Abbeygargoyle-Alx2
2 Axelrod-CP x2,
1 Carrion Pigeons-Puzzle
1 Dagger-Grakthis
5 Hawkeye-Cyan, ZDS, Rafaelk, Spoon, Abbey,
5 Not Voting-Axelrod, Hawkeye7, Xyre, Dagger, Vampyr
With 14 alive, it's 8 to lynch.
Anyway, no worries Az..this seems like a hard game to keep track of. And maybe people will stop wasting our time with 'Axel is the SK' theories now.
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Question out to Az. but that would seem fairly conclusive that Grakthis "protected" me. Fairly definitively making him not SK.
I've actually been preoccupied and haven't veiwed the thread since early Saturday. I hope that everyone other then Cyan will at least allow me to respond to Cyan's masterpiece of logical and deductive reasoning before voting to lynch me. Please. I also hope that everyone other then Cyan will actually read my responses.
Thank you.
Cyan, I see you finally scrounged up the guts to try to actually make a case against me instead of your ineffectual sniping all game long that I'm scummy.
Well, I for one, appreciate you doing as I have asked you more then once to do and I do appreciate how difficult it must have been for you. It's not easy to completely misinterperate and/or misrepresent my posts. Especially as it is clear that you have no idea what I was doing or what I am doing now.
I will post my response to the PBPA shortly. As for a complete claim, well I have already done it. Since I haven't yet read through your PBPA yet, I have to ask, do you think I am lying about what I have claimed? If not it makes no sense to ask me to completely claim. I have already done so. You have my role name and my ability. What more is it you are looking for?
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*moons Axelrod*
As for your claim, I'm having a hard time meshing Truman with the ability to force someone to change their avatar once. Nevermind how lame/seemingly useless that ability is, it's easy enough for one of your scum buddies to pretend that Azrael forced them to change their avatar, etc. Plus, if the avatar change actually does anything, you neglected to tell us that part. In essence, I think you're lying about the full extent of your role.
*kicks Grakthis in the bum*
I still don't agree with your reasoning. We may, however, have lucked into the best case scenario due to mod error. Cyan's ability is confirmed and he's still got his lives.
Who would you like to die now?
Still totally happy with the vote on Hawkeye.
You know the little Grakthis-Axelrod-Cyan theatre that just happened? From Ted 'Theodore' Logan's point of view... all that happened is we got a scene in the thread "confirming" the identity of the bogus Cyan and Axelrod (without confirming alignments). And then after mucho complainingo a scene in the thread apparently confirming Grakthis' story.
Is it just me, or is there way too much "confirming" going on in this game without any actual confirming, if you know what I mean?
I totally believed Axel and Cyan were who they said they were anyway. This little piece of drama does nothing. I didn't buy into the idea that Axel was SK, more that he and Cyan were some kind of bogus neutral survivors or heinous neutrals with a goal of lynching particular people, but... I don't see much reason for an SK to shoot Axel. On the other hand, knowing that he was protected, faking an attack on himself would be a most excellent tactic, and exactly the kind of thing Axel would think of.
I reckon this clears the most noble Sir Grak though.
QFT
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Something else, Hawkeye. If your whole role is Truman and you can just force someone to change their avatar one time, how did you know anything about locations, and why was Hvir not picking up on your 'clues' about them enough for you to lynch them if they apparently mean nothing in regard to your role? Also, if you are Truman, why did you constantly roleplay as The Director? Why not just act goofy and make useless statements like, 'Good Morning, and in case I don't see you, good afternoon, good evening, and good night?'. Or just act paranoid. Or whatever. Your roleplaying doesn't synch up with your claim, which doesn't make alot of sense anyway.
How did I Know about the locations?
How did you not?
Maybe I think like Azrael or maybe I flatter myself that I do. I have said on many occations posted that I play this game intuitively. There are times that I simply know things and I honestly can't explain how I do. It just struck me as a perfect aspect to this game that should be there. As to why Hvir did not pick up on the clues I dropped I can't say. I don't know. I thought I was fairly obvious and direct in trying to get a discussion of the locations going. I directly questioned him about it and I still maintain that if his role is as he described, then he misplayed that part. I did not constantly roleplay as the director. I used the director to frame the post as an episode of the Truman Show and the content of the post to build my unclaimed role claim.
Why not do what?
Say goofy things like what?
Why don't you ask Azrael why he put all the work he did into designing this game? He has crafted a game that some will not truely appreciate. I wanted to try my best to do his work justice.
Honestly, if I can make someone think about what they are reading and see what deeper meaning there is beyond the obvious then I am happy. I simply have to rely on the ability of players to pick up on what I am trying to tell them. Many players do and I hope that they see some value in it. Some people simply can't or don't.
Anyway, thanks for posting so I can post this first part of my response to your PBPA.
Not meaningless, but it is roleplaying. As I mentioned earlier I had a theory that moving in the game setting would possibly be of importance and this was my first post that talked about the group moving. It also was the start of what I thought was pretty obvious bread crumbing of my role character.
2nd attempt to get the idea of moving around out there and possibly discussed. If it was a machanic in the game I wanted to see if anyone would respond before simply blurting out my theory. I will honestly try not to take gratuitis swipes at Cyan for his lack if insight or his blatant misrepresenting my posts.
Here he says I gave “Apparently serious vote on Carrion Pigeons, without even the most remote explanation of it.” now, I ask you , how can you not see why I voted for CP from what I posted?
This is what I posted:
It is obvious that I went through the thread and assigned a numerical rating to each post based on how I viewed the post in relation to it being suspicious or not.
I ask you, does it seem like I voted for CP without the most remote explaination of it?
Hmmmm, I don’t think I’m reading the same post as you here Cyan. I complimented Raf on a choice post he made questioning Xyre. I continued to build my unclaimed role claim by directly quoting a line from the movie my character is from, I directly asked people in the game what their experience has been with multi votes and that role being non-townie, and I voiced my support for the masons to remain hidden. I know you completely missed my role clue but to characterize this post of mine as meaningless roleplaying and the only thing of note is a minor attempt to discredit CP is simply missing the mark by 2/3’s. Meaning, there where three points made in this post and you either missed or ignored two of them.
I really must try to be more obvious in what I post. I, again, alluded to my role character by the use of the term risk management in a sarcastic question to DHY that was indeed baiting. But since I had already come out and clearly stated I did not think the Masons should come out and claim, the meaning of that statement was to try to get DHY to come out and clearly state whether or not he thought they should.
Cyan, Did you completely miss the post where I answered the question as to what 816KAZ is? If you did here is the answer I gave. Google it. Again building on the unclaimed role claim for my character.
At this point in the game I had no Idea Loran was definitely scum. The point the made that I agreed with was valid and I still agree with it. I disagree that the the PBPA that Grak did was as entirely negative as Xyres was. I do think that at this point in the game you had been playing differently and since you had not yet claimed I saw that difference and the valid points I saw in Grak’s PBPA more then enough to justify my voting for you. Frankly, it is only Axe’s confirmation of some of the points of your claim that makes you less of a suspect now.
Does not make sense to you?
Let me ask you a question Cyan. If this post does not make any sense to you, then how do you know I was being subtle?
You are rightly looking at this post with reading glasses of hindsight but you are not also thinking of what was known at that time in the game. This was the first possible confirmation of a role in the game like mine that did not draw from the Matrix Universe. I believed the claim but not that it cleared Atlseal as a townie. Only that his name claim was probably true.
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Honestly, I am pretty well stuck.
HE's role is extremely plausible for scum, but behaviorally I had no issues with him till about the last few game days. It seems like he should have tripped my radar earlier.
CP has the 2nd most likely ROLE to be scum, but his behavior is as pro-town as could possibly be.
Rafael has been extremely pro-town, there's no way I'd buy him as mafia. The SK is possible, but that would be EXCEPTIONALLY ballsy for him to claim to have been vanilla'd if he wasn't actually vanilla'd and then we had an SK kill so we should be able to rule that out.
Abbey could be scum simply on that basis that he hasn't given me any townie tells. I know that's very lukewarm, but a lack of townie tells this late in the game is approaching statistical significance. But I've never caught Abbey as scum, and maybe never seen him as scum. So i'm not feeling really confident on that.
I've made my case on Dagger.
Spoon has been getting by on the fact that we keep assuming someone who's role draws so much attention to itself cannot be scum (i.e. he is seemingly a gimmick account) but you know, there was once an SK in a game on ML who actually had two roles. He posted as both and both had to be killed to get rid of him. Just a thought. Remember the two twins from reloaded? Thinking outloud here.
Xyre caught mafia and has a proven ability. I don't see lynching him as being anything short of stupid.
We have two claimed masons, and if we don't have a cop, the only way to verify them is to kill one of them. The way vampyr claimed though strikes me as VERY honest. Like, why risk yourself there when ZDS was in real danger of going down?
Puzzle's behavior when he first jumped in was very aggressive and very naughty, but he cleaned up after that. But now he's conveniently dodging answering our questions and we have some issues with Charm_Master apparently. These need to be dealt with.
I have very little on Alx except that he had a string of pro-town posts and behaviors that stood up to scrutiny, so he's not high on my list.
I guess at this point I'd be happy with a mass claim and/or seeing one of Puzzle, Spoon, HE or Abbey die.
Uh, this is new. I would have figured that if I was going to come under fire for anything, it wouldn't be because of my claim. How is a role that is demonstrably capable, as scum, of winning if it survives by itself to the final 5, even if the masons don't live to the end, and the final 9 if they both do, the second most likely role to be scum in the game?
Anyway, is anyone especially believing HAWKEYE's claim? Because if I'm going to be the last few votes on him, I'm happy to demonstrate them anytime. Just let me know, and someone will need to vote me so I have a third vote.
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Next couple of responses. I hope to get to somethings that i have noticed about other players the Cyan when i am done with this response. Unfortunately, I have found that if I stop to address any other topic it will count against me. So, back to eht PBPA.
I questioned how an Agent could be town. I voiced encouragement to Spoon, Raf and Xyre leading the discussion at this point of the game.
It was not Atl’s wagon evaporating that I attacked CP for it was the fact that there were two bandwagons Alt’s and Yours Cyan that evaporated at near the same time that CP was lamenting but oddly enough he was not a part of either. He had his vote on Sutherlands. If either of those bandwagons were really of interest to him why did he not put his vote where his mouth was and vote for either? How is it that you have completely misread this post to eliminate yourself from the discussion and how is it that you completely missed what I was really attacking CP for?
Again, building the unclaimed role claim. I pointed out to Xyre that there was at least one other possibility to the question he was commenting on, what Arim’s post told us about who might have wanted him dead at that point in the game. I did say that CP could have done it to make Atlseal look bad. I stand by this. Yes, in hindsight, with the knowledge we have now that Atlseal was scum this looks bad. It is still possible. It is unlikely but it is possible that one scum was distancing himself from another . I admit it is a long shot and if you want to use my possibly being wrong here to build your case against me then I say you have a board you can build with.
No. There is not the same implications as in my last post. I pointed out to Xyre and everyone in the game that Arim’s death was an event that needed to be analyzed. I posted how I thought it should be analyzed and I stand by this post.
I have already stated why I initially thought that Atlseal’s name claim was true. I too had a role outside of the Matrix universe. Here I give more reasons why I thought it was a perfect choice of a role in this game. I say again, this does not mean that the role is town. At this point I did not have atlseal as either town or mafia.
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Heinous. Totally.
Excellent way of putting it, dude. His day 1 "look at me, I'm Sandra Dee" flaunting aside.
I should check if I've seen Abbey as scum anywhere.
Anyone seen my phone box?
Just as long as you don't slam a case shut on your own dagger, heh heh. That's totally painful.
Um, but to be serious for just a second, my view on Dagger is... one of those roles that's "confirmed" without being confirmed. And not a massive contributor. Not a lot of scummy stuff, but not many signs of rocking out *air guitar*
Yep.
Is it just me, Spoon and AG who haven't claimed? I'm game if they are. After 5 days, the mystery of the cutlery is getting totally old.
Also, I want to find out if he's the CROPMAN, becuase the CROPMAN is EXCELLENT (he might be bogus or not, I dunno, but he's still EXCELLENT!).
Yes way indeed, dude.
ZDS-Vamp-Xyre are the actually confirmed peeps to me. That none of them died today kinda shocks me. Of course -2 to lynch stuff etc etc, but still.
Standard for him. Even townier for him. He's a tricksy hobbit when he's being heinous, my precious.
That's WAY harsh, man. A dude's got to live where a dude's got to live.
Kinda.
I rate him with cp, but less so. An ability that really should be bogus (we had a town donut-eater; an information role that doesn't need to get alignment is kind of pro-bogusity), but behaviour less excellent than cp.
The Emperor Napoleon once told me something, dude. Don't make bogus plays for sympathy- it cuts no ice with French Empress babes or mafia players.
Dude, you sure it was Napoleon and not Caesar?
PBPA response Continues.........
Sigh……….
This is one of my favorite posts and it says so much. I am trying not to repost what I originally posted as much as possible, but this one deserves to be reprinted.
Ok, there is a recurring scene in the movie of Truman being stopped in front of various advertising posters for what amounted to product placement commercials. This is a parody of that. I thought it was rather well done.
This second part is what I find very surprising that Cyan could not even pick up on. How did you miss this Cyan?
I speculate a little more openly now on another theory I had about the game and the role playing in it. My role indicated nothing about roleplaying or it’s effect on the game. I come right out and state this. How did you not understand it Cyan?
We knew from the get go that it did have some effect on the game and there were a couple of other players who were roleplaying early on besides myself. As it turns out we now know there is some mechanic that may or may not cause or force a player to roleplay. I have never roleplayed in this game for any other reason then I wanted to.
No, not meaningless.
This is by far the most obvious unclaimed role claim building post directly quoting the movie and it responded to ZDS’s speculation regarding roleplaying.
Wow, I am surprised that you caught this Cyan. Earlier in the game, when I said I found CP the most suspicous player in the game and voted for him I also said that the second most suspicious player was a bit of a surprise to me and that I would keep an eye on him. That player is Fade.
You do see why I did not come right out and voice my suspicion of Fade or why I question him regarding why he made the statements he made, right Cyan?
Here, I come out and question points he was making about Arim. Not only that I also comment on a very odd paragraph Fade made and I still stand by it. Fade basically says he is having a hard time digesting the data in this game. Almost as if he wants to build an excuse for why he is not contributing more to the game. I said this was an “unFade” like statement and it is.
Once again Cyan, how could you so completely miss the real point I was making in this post? Especially when I made no effort to hide this one.
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Roleplay as their true role, of course. I wouldn't be much of a "revealer" otherwise. I believe DYH confirmed this on the day he was affected. I don't have the time to seek out the quote right now, but he said he has to "represent his true self" or something like that.
I am not game for that at this moment as I stated before in my post in respose to the suggestion of a massclaim.
Personally, I think Hawkeye is a great lynch today. He has acted thoroughly scummy when it really mattered, and his claim is uninspiring at best.
Axel, if you can just kill him somehow(you appear to have aluded to this a couple of times, though you might want to get an update on that now that we know that Grak's ability worked as it should), that would be even better. Then maybe we can get rid of 2 scum today.
Your role punishes people who are voting for you. It's a defense mechanism. As a townie role, it's completely useless. It doesn't increase our total votes and doesn't improve our chances of lynching scum, As a scum role, it's a weapon against the town. Town votes for scum, scum uses those votes on someone else.
Like, in a five player end game, if 2 of the town think you're scum and 2 of the town are undecided, you only need ONE of the two remaining to agree with you to get a lynch.
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He's only a tripple voter IFF there are 3 people voting for him.
So only if he's being attacked. I mean, it's clearly strong for scum (he's got 3 votes on him, it's 4 to lynch, to he throws his 3 votes onto random guy who already has 1 vote on him) but it's almost useless if he's town. it's only useful if he is smarter than the rest of the town.
Yes, with 7b, it should be possible.
Also, I asked Azrael once before what would happen if I targeted Puzzle, and he replied that I can only speak with whoever is currently possessing the 'Oracle' role. That meant that if Puzzle rotated out, I would only be able to speak with the next person in line. I have always assumed that meant Limbo is off-limit. (I only recalled this)
Obviously now with 7b, I am going to ask him again, could I specifically target Puzzle in Limbo instead of the 'Oracle' role itself? I should think can.
Of course, tonight would be spent on CM, as most requested.
Also, the scenes Az written up pretty much confirmed Grak's ability.
I'll need sometime to read Cyan's case and HE's responses, but it seems pretty much that the majority is favoring HE as a lynch right now, explanations given or not.
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Nice language.
I'm at work right now and won't be able to post again till tonight, but I will be posting again tonight for sure.
Let’s see.
You finally, after all this time of sniping that I’m scummy and being asked to put forth a case, you come up with a PBPA that goes over each of my posts and supposedly explains why you think I’m scummy. That’s all well and good. I’m more then willing to have anyone call me scummy as long as they go on record and explain why so I can either explain to them why they are wrong or challenge then if I think they are trying to misrepresent my posts. You critiqued 88 posts of mine in you attempt to finally show why you have been saying I’m scummy all game and I have responded to only a handful so far. Already you are trying to shut down my response to you PBPA.
Why is that?
If you are confident in your case, you should not be afraid of any response I make. If I try to mischaracterize your response it should glaringly show up and reinforce your point that I’m scummy. As it is I think that you are afraid that I will continue to show just how wrong and in some cases, clueless you are regarding what you have read. I also think that the fact that in just the few posts I have responded to I have show that you have completely ignored what is pretty obvious points I have made and tried to focus on things you pretend to not understand, at least I hope you are pretending, as proof that I am scummy.
So, I ask you Cyan, are you going to answer the questions I asked you in the responses I made? I’m betting not.
Are you going to keep trying to shut down my responses to your PBPA or will you let me finish? Again, I’m betting not.
I’ll put this question to the rest of you. Should I respond to each item in Cyan’s PBPA? Also does anyone see the difference in what Cyan tried to characterize as scummy about my posts and the responses I have made explaining what really was there?
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Well, we know you can TARGET him. The question is can he TALK from Limbo.
So be sure to be extremely specific on this... don't just ask if you can bring him into your Favorite 5. Ask him if CM will be able to TALK while in Limbo.
Re: the HE7 responses - My issue is that in his response to the PBPA he essentially keeps explaining all of his roleplaying and breadcrumbing. My question is, why was he breadcrumbing so much? I mean, the RPing we know. But why such blatant breadcrumbs? Ok, we get it, you were showing us your role. But WHY?
I was under the impression that if he was unvoted then his votes dissapear as well. But I guess I just assumed that. He should probably elaborate.
Second, you are correct, my votes only last for as long as I'm being voted.
I've basically thought of my role as similar to a vig role, in that most of the time it's only really worth using if I'm really sure about someone.
Now, are we just going to wait for HE7 to finish his responses, or do we have something else to talk about? How about this: Hawkeye, you're under suspicion primarily for a lousy voting record and an unlikely and incomprehensible role. If you have anything to counter those, feel free to take a break from Cyan to let us know. That way, we can discuss any issues that might actually matter, and get on with lynching you, or not.
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It's like a day-vig that costs us our lynch.
Which, as I said, is stronger for mafia than for the town.
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