MTG Salvation

The thing is, Xyre, that your reason for saying yes seems to have been based on the fact that you didn't lose a spoon when you were roleblocked, rather than any actual knowledge about whether you get your spoon back if it's refused. You do appreciate the difference there, right? I know that I, for one, would appreciate it if you could confirm that the specific question "If the Spoon is refused, do you get it back?" is the one you have a specific positive answer for, and not anything more general or hypothetical.

Quote from carrion pigeons

The thing is, Xyre, that your reason for saying yes seems to have been based on the fact that you didn't lose a spoon when you were roleblocked, rather than any actual knowledge about whether you get your spoon back if it's refused. You do appreciate the difference there, right? I know that I, for one, would appreciate it if you could confirm that the specific question "If the Spoon is refused, do you get it back?" is the one you have a specific positive answer for, and not anything more general or hypothetical.

Yes, if the spoon is rejected, I get it back.

But seriously, Xyre, stop dodging the question and tell us plainly. You're going to upset Puzzle >:3

ZDS, when you saw Xyre give the first spoon to Axel, didn't you say you saw Xyre put the spoon in Axel's gear or something?

Axel, how was the choice of taking the spoon presented to you?

Forgive me for not realizing that you can argue an aspect of "he said, she said". There's a reason I didn't argue any more because at this point, it's basically going to come down to who you trust between Xyre and me. However, Axelrod brought up wanting to know the potential flavor behind what I got from Az.

In essance, I took the spoon and threw it away in a garbage can.

Xyre, you didn't answer my question.

Quote from RafaelK

ZDS, when you saw Xyre give the first spoon to Axel, didn't you say you saw Xyre put the spoon in Axel's gear or something?

Axel, how was the choice of taking the spoon presented to you?

That's an interesting point which I haven't really payed serious attention to. I still have the PM though. This is what happened:

I was looking for a place to hide out for the Night, and I settled on a Motorcycle shop. During the Night I heard a Crash. When I went to investigate, I found an overturned Motorcycle and there was a spoon on the floor.

I was then asked if I wanted to touch it or not.

I obviously chose to touch it.

When I touched it, it was absorbed into my body. I got no further information about what the effect of this was.

Quote from atlseal

Forgive me for not realizing that you can argue an aspect of "he said, she said". There's a reason I didn't argue any more because at this point, it's basically going to come down to who you trust between Xyre and me. However, Axelrod brought up wanting to know the potential flavor behind what I got from Az.

In essance, I took the spoon and threw it away in a garbage can.

Woah, speak of the Devil.

This is totally inconsistent with what happened to me.

We may actually have a winner here.

This one?

Last question, Xyre: you said you no longer have a Spoon. This is not quite the same thing as saying that Atlseal definitely took it. Do you know for certain that if a person "refuses" your Spoon, you get it back and get another opportunity to give it? Is it possible that you just lose the Spoon if the person you offer it to refuses it?

The answer is that I get the spoon back if it isn't accepted. I don't know what happens if I'm blocked or whatnot, although I'd guess the result is the same. All I do know is that atl took the spoon, as far as the mod's willing to tell me.

Quote from Xyre

This one?

The answer is that I get the spoon back if it isn't accepted. I don't know what happens if I'm blocked or whatnot, although I'd guess the result is the same. All I do know is that atl took the spoon, as far as the mod's willing to tell me.

Actually, the question concerned the "results" PMs that you got as between Myself and atlseal. Since we both supposedly took the Spoons, the PMs that you got would/should presumably have been similar. But you seemed a bit confused about atlseal. I was wondering if there was some difference between them.

Now that Atlseal has popped up it may be a moot point. I don't see how what he says happened could have happened. In fact, it's virtually contradicted by my own PM.

Quote from Puzzle »

@ HE7 :
1. you haven't commented about targetting a mason tonight.

That is correct.

Quote from Puzzle »

2. why do you blame Axelrod for slowing down the lynch to get a clearer view and not me ?

And why should I blame you instead of Axel for slowing down the lynch?
Clearer view of what? The situation is very clear. That is unless you want to think up very unlikely possible explainations as to why Atl could allegedly seen to accept a spoon from Xyre and lie about it, without actually doing so.
It is very interesting that Atl has been under a good deal of scrutiny for several reasons, as witnessed by his mutating role claim, and Axe has been the primary sourse of his defense.
I’ve already posted my thoughts regarding his most recent attempt to explain away the accusation of Xyre.
Here is another example:

Quote from Axelrod

The thing about Atlseal is this:

(1) not likely to be day-killer, evidenced by fact that daykiller apparently tried to kill him. Unless he was allowed to fake a kill attempt on himself which is wrong for all kinds of reasons.

(2) not likely to be allied with Loran, for reasons of their interactions.

So if he's not the daykiller (who is almost certainly this games SK), and he's not scum with Loran, then what is he?

The people voting him appear to be doing so because they don't like his claim. Think it's too convenient/too powerful/too something. Or they just don't like the way he string-claimed. Now, I can see those points, I really can, but what is your conclusion, folks? You can't just say "I don't like the claim - Vote Atlseal." What do you think he is? Do you think he's the SK, despite being shot at? Do you think he's Mafia and he and Loran were just doing this very impressive distancing thing the entire time? Do you agree he isn't likely to be allied with Loran, but you are so much convinced of his scumminess otherwise that you feel he simply must be some other kind of (unclearly identified) scum?

I think everyone voting him needs to be very clear on their reasons. I don't like the claim either, and it does make me uneasy, but logically, I just don't see him being Mafia or SK.

Axel, how many different reasons people have come up with for finding Atl suspicious and worthy of being voted for have you taken it upon yourself to defend atl for and he has let you do all the work of that defense?
I’ve found two examples, should I continue to dig?

Quote from Axelrod

Actually, the question concerned the "results" PMs that you got as between Myself and atlseal. Since we both supposedly took the Spoons, the PMs that you got would/should presumably have been similar. But you seemed a bit confused about atlseal. I was wondering if there was some difference between them.

Now that Atlseal has popped up it may be a moot point. I don't see how what he says happened could have happened. In fact, it's virtually contradicted by my own PM.

Does this mean you have finally found the concrete piece of obscure information that no one else can confirm, but will allow you to now, in good conscience, vote for Atl? or are you just cutting bait and trying to not be tied to Atl too directly?

Quote from Axelrod

Actually, the question concerned the "results" PMs that you got as between Myself and atlseal. Since we both supposedly took the Spoons, the PMs that you got would/should presumably have been similar. But you seemed a bit confused about atlseal. I was wondering if there was some difference between them.

Now that Atlseal has popped up it may be a moot point. I don't see how what he says happened could have happened. In fact, it's virtually contradicted by my own PM.

They were similar.

My PMs also have a small description of what the target did with the spoon (I'm guessing for flavor reasons), and atlseal didn't throw it away. Quite the opposite.

Axel's story and atl's story not meshing, and atl's last minute story for why he didn't accept the spoon but also explaining why Xyre doesn't still have a spoon (and if he had that kind of explanation available earlier, why is it only coming out now?), is the sealer for me.

Hawkeye: what do you think atlseal is? Mafia? SK? Cult? Something else? You appear to be casting aspersions because I have expressed uncertainty about atlseal on more than one occasion. Why do you find this unbelievable? Do you actually disagree with anything I said?

vote atlseal seems the way to go after all.

Quote from Axelrod

Hawkeye: what do you think atlseal is? Mafia? SK? Cult? Something else? You appear to be casting aspersions because I have expressed uncertainty about atlseal on more than one occasion. Why do you find this unbelievable? Do you actually disagree with anything I said?

what I disagree with is the recurring scenario of you presenting defenses for Atl. Defenses that it is very unnusual for one player to present for another player who is under legitimate scrutiny for their actions. Defenses that are presented in the form of trying to open up discussion regarding possible explainations for why Atl appears scummy but may simply be misunderstood.

let me ask you again, have finally found the concrete piece of obscure information that no one else can confirm, but will allow you to now, in good conscience, vote for Atl? Does the fact that it now appears that not only did Atl lie about taking the Spoon from Xyre, but based on your own experience with the spoon taking PM flavor, that he is lying also about the flavor of the pm he recieved about taking the spoon?

Quote from HAWKEYE7

what I disagree with is the recurring scenario of you presenting defenses for Atl. Defenses that it is very unnusual for one player to present for another player who is under legitimate scrutiny for their actions. Defenses that are presented in the form of trying to open up discussion regarding possible explainations for why Atl appears scummy but may simply be misunderstood.

let me ask you again, have finally found the concrete piece of obscure information that no one else can confirm, but will allow you to now, in good conscience, vote for Atl? Does the fact that it now appears that not only did Atl lie about taking the Spoon from Xyre, but based on your own experience with the spoon taking PM flavor, that he is lying also about the flavor of the pm he recieved about taking the spoon?

You didn't say what you thought he was (except to suggest that whatever he is, I am defending him).

And you are completely incorrect that it is "unusual" for a player to post about the issues/doubts they are having deciding whether or not a player is scum. Certainly this has never been true for me.

But, to answer you, to be sure, I am ready to vote him.

This is the time where a votecount would be so helpful.

Who's NOT voting for atlseal right now?

If we're ready to proceed with a lynch on him, which it finally seems we are, I'm sure people can just start submitting their votes.

I'm willing to lynch; I just haven't voted yet.

Guys, stop being "willing" and "ready" to lynch ATL and get to lynching him.

Bunch. Of. Cowards.

I suspect he's already lynched and we are just waiting for the vote-count.

Or else there's a bunch of people standing around saying "willing" without actually doing anything yet.

Or there's something tricky at work behind the cover of the missing votecounts.

I imagine we'll find out which one it is in the next 24 hours or so.

I sent my vote in on Wednesday.
09-05-2007 Matrix vote
06:26 PM Azrael
It is time to make the deposit or get off the pot folks.

Yeah, I'd like to see Azrael post that says "I have processed all votes, day continues" or something. So that we know.

I mean, you know, ATL *is* +2 to lynch and his scum buddies CAN safely refuse to vote him since it's hidden and all.

*Dwight's ghost yawns*

Okay, so I guess he's not lynched yet.

I'll have you know I had already sent in my vote before that though. So don't blame me.

Vote sent since everyone is satisfied with ending the day.

I sent a vote yesterday.

Anyone not voting for ATL is a cone. Especially his scum buddies

Quote from Puzzle

I have just come to realize that the masons, apparently, can switch to the Smith avatar at will. If I'm correct, that should prevent their quick-lynch if it comes to that.
That also means that there is no rush to vanilla-ize them or use HE7's ability.

However, I can't help but feel that there has to be a drawback to using the Smith avatar, probably in secret rules we don't know about yet.

Yes, we discussed using the avatar and also what sort of repercussions it might have. I'd agree that there's no need to vanilla-ize anything soon.

I sent my vote for atlseal in 9-6-07 around 5 pm. So no cone head here.

Quote from Puzzle

If you can daytalk, why don't you PM them then ?

How do you know we can daytalk? eh?

Oh shi-

Please disregard this post.

I voted quite a while ago.

I voted immediately after the vote-fog thing was put into place, as evidenced by my post regarding this all.

Simple math: 16 alive. 4 or even 5 could be scum. Normally, 9 to lynch, but for atl, could be 11. Scums have no reason to send a vote.

Hence, every single townie must vote him if we want a lynch.

I've voted now.

Quote from Alx2

Simple math: 16 alive. 4 or even 5 could be scum. Normally, 9 to lynch, but for atl, could be 11. Scums have no reason to send a vote.

Hence, every single townie must vote him if we want a lynch.

If we've lynched scum 2 out of 3 days and there's still an SK and 4 mafia left, this game is unwinnable for the town.

I simply cannot believe that alignment is possible.

Why not? That allows for three mislynches in a maximum of 10 days or so. That isn't completely unreasonable. Look at how many scum and potential scum there were in Sin City, and the scum only pulled that one out by the skin of their teeth.

I voted forever ago.

Sidenote: sorry I've been less active these past few days; school just started for me.

Quote from carrion pigeons

Why not? That allows for three mislynches in a maximum of 10 days or so. That isn't completely unreasonable. Look at how many scum and potential scum there were in Sin City, and the scum only pulled that one out by the skin of their teeth.

16 players with 5 of them scum? AFTER we've correctly lynched twice?

15 players with 3 scum is a normal minigame and that's with 1 kill per night!

Think about this, with 5 scum and 2 scum kills per cycle, if we lynch mafia, mafia, SK, mafia the count goes:

15-4
14-4 (night kill)
13-4 (day kill)
12-3 (lynch)
11-3 (night kill)
10-3 (day kill)
9-2 (lynch)
8-2 (night kill)
7-2 (day kill)
6-1 (lynch)
5-1 (night kill)

If lynch PERFECTLY but don't hit the SK and the scum don't crosskill we have 1 spare lynch on the last day! We can mislynch ONCE on the last day (to make it 3-1 the following day).

If we mislynch on ANY earlier day, then we lose unless we hit the SK ASAP or unless the SK and mafia crosskill.

Obv, this is assuming there is an SK and not an extra mafia kill.

A game is not balanced if the town can lynch at 75% and find themselves in LYLO on the last day (which is what could happen if there are 4 mafia and 1 SK left). And this is AFTER we already killed the cult leader.

The only possible way there are 5 scum left is if the moderator has given us a TON of protection roles.

We need less theorizing and more triple-voting.

I can send in my vote 3 times, but I don't think that's going to do anything.

Twilight.

As you close in around Atlseal, you flash back to the first few days of the ordeal. Poor young Alice, tossed off the top of the building to her death. Sati, found pale and drained of blood. Now you're about to slaughter a kitten. A wet, bedraggled, pitiful little kitten. What a wonderful world, huh?

This time, you pray you're right. You grit your teeth against the nausea and dizziness. Someone, it's difficult to tell through the haze, reaches out and grabs Atlseal by the neck, and...

Atlseal's mouth expands exponentially, revealing a gaping maw of razor sharp teeth, including two long, wicked fangs.

Whoever was holding Atlseal flings him away against the wall. He makes a sound like a wet rag, bounces off, and rebounds towards another bystander. He latches on to their chest with his claws, his victim struggling to keep him away from his neck, his chest and shirt ripped apart by small, superficial claw marks.

As he holds the struggling fiend with both hands, the town aims for a clear shot, but it's impossible to get a decent angle.

Finally, a slim figure moves out of the group and launches itself through the air, leg extending forward at impossible speeds, aiming for Atlseal's head. It connects, and the leering head of Atlseal, The Cheshire Cat, Mafia Emoter, goes flying through the shattered windows towards the streets far below.

As it falls, your headache and nausea begins to clear. Perhaps things are looking up. You retire for the night.

Night 4 has fallen. Deadline is set for Tuesday, September 11th, at 11:00 AM EST.

During the night, the rain pounds the city. Wave after wave rushes into the depths of the mall, sweeping away everything in its path. Mother nature, or its matrix facsimile, appears intent on reclaiming its own.

As the sun sullenly rises above the horizon behind a curtain of gray clouds, the downpour slackens, and eventually ceases altogether. Heavy clouds still laden with moisture hover overhead, stirring restlessly. For however brief a time, the surface has been granted a reprieve.

Yet the reminders of the storm are inescapable. The bottom levels of the mall have begun to look more like a reservoir than a shopping center. The bodies of the fallen float on the surface like bugs on a pond. After a quick head count and a few minutes of searching, someone spots a new addition to the macrabre collection.

The group fishes Fadeblue's body from the water. Her effects identify her as Veil, a prominent member of the Cypherite leadership. Two bullet wounds on either side of the chest appear to be the cause of her death.

With 14 still breathing, it is 8 to lynch. Day five has begun.

Huh.

Anyway, perusing the wiki, I found this in relation to The Matrix Online (the only place I could find a mention of Veil):

Veil is broken out of the Zion prison, and as it turns out, she is the Cypherite mission controller. It is also discovered that Cryptos is the Cypherites' leader. The Merovingian makes something of a truce with the Cypherites, but worked against them as it suited his purposes. The Cypherites eventually discovered this, and their truce was broken. Meanwhile, Zion's main agenda is taking down the Merovingian, and the General's men create more powerful versions of the holy water, silver bullet, and wooden stake killcode items for killing exiles.


Meanwhile, The Kid founds a splinter group of Zionites, "E Pluribus Neo" (with his controller, Shimada). This organization is deeply loyal to Neo's vision of freeing humanity and violently opposed to the Cypherites.

Crazy as it sounds, we might be looking at a setup where the Matrix' members are the town, and the protagonists from the movies (a la the human resistance) is scum. Based on what The Kid said in his death scene, it might support that Neo or those aligned with him are scum. Just a thought. It would explain why people like Agent Gray and the Architect would be town.

Just a thought.

Scheme time!

Who was it that said he was targeted by the Cult night 1? Because if that person is still alive, it might tell us how the mafia knew who the cult leader was.

Quote from Xyre

Huh.

Anyway, perusing the wiki, I found this in relation to The Matrix Online (the only place I could find a mention of Veil):

Quote from Wiki »

Veil is broken out of the Zion prison, and as it turns out, she is the Cypherite mission controller. It is also discovered that Cryptos is the Cypherites' leader. The Merovingian makes something of a truce with the Cypherites, but worked against them as it suited his purposes. The Cypherites eventually discovered this, and their truce was broken. Meanwhile, Zion's main agenda is taking down the Merovingian, and the General's men create more powerful versions of the holy water, silver bullet, and wooden stake killcode items for killing exiles.


Meanwhile, The Kid founds a splinter group of Zionites, "E Pluribus Neo" (with his controller, Shimada). This organization is deeply loyal to Neo's vision of freeing humanity and violently opposed to the Cypherites.

Crazy as it sounds, we might be looking at a setup where the Matrix' members are the town, and the protagonists from the movies (a la the human resistance) is scum. Based on what The Kid said in his death scene, it might support that Neo or those aligned with him are scum. Just a thought. It would explain why people like Agent Gray and the Architect would be town.

Just a thought.

Well, let’s look at the roles that we know for sure

Quote from Azrael

Matrix Mafia, Return to 2.0

The Dead-10
0. Dwight McCarthy, Townie Mod Persona. Bled to death near an alley, night zero.
1. Arimnaes, Agent Gray, Townie Detention Specialist. Shot from behind, day one.
2. Hvirfilvindr, Alice, Townie Reflector. Lost her head, day one.
3. LJustus, Sati, Townie Sacrificial Lamb. Bitten and drained, night one.
4. Kraj, The Program Formerly Known as Agent Smith. Blown away day two.
5. DYH, Peter Silberman, Townie Shrink. Cracked for good, day three.
6. Loran16, The Kid, Mafia Permablocker. Bailed out on day three.
7. Pod, Private Detective Ash, Townie Cop. Bitten and drained, night 3.
8. J-Effe IV, The Architect, Townie Roleblocker/Voyeurism Expediter. Suffered dentistry by bullet, day four.
9. Atlseal, The Chesire Cat, Mafia Emoter. Smile made permanent, day four.
10. Fadeblue, Veil, Townie Nullifier. Two bullets to chest, night four.

Townie Win Condition- The scum must die.

You have one role, Loran16, The Kid, Mafia Permablocker, out of 10 confirmed roles that supports that theory and one role, Atlseal, The Chesire Cat, Mafia Emoter, the directly contradict it. Considering how many one program characters on on the town side I’d say this theory will prove to be just that, only a theory.

Any theories on why they chose to kill Fade last night?
Why fade instead of anyone else at this point in the game?

Why don't you tell us why the scum killed fade, hawkeye? It's your team afterall.

As if Hawkeye weren't scummy enough this entire game, yesterday he *completely* ignored everything going on with atlseal. His entire contribution to that wagon consisted of a post where he says he's going to vote atlseal at some point if atlseal doesn't answer some question, and later stating that he was voting him(of course we have no way of knowing whether or not this is true) and attacking everyone that isn't voting atlseal. Nevermind that he contributed nothing to the wagon, instead pursuing a ridiculously weak attack on Axel the whole time.

Hell, the post that hawkeye just made is a classic scum tell. Vote Hawkeye

Hawkeye: It's not just about the scum, of course, but also about the townies. But now that I look at it, Sati doesn't seem like an anti-Neo character, and based on the flavor of my block, the Merovingian is probably the mafia roleblocker.

I don't get the connection between the Merovingian and the Kid, though. That's what's bothering me about the whole thing. Unless Az has taken significant liberties with the Matrix universe, these two being allies would seem antithetical. Unless there's something I'm missing?

Also, I didn't know that there were vampires in the Matrix. Interestingly, the kill method on fade differed from that on the previous two, which makes me think the mafia changed tactics. Unless atlseal was the thing that drained blood, I'm guessing that another member of the mafia is Invalesco, from the Matrix Online, although there are inconsistencies... I'd see him as more of a cult figure based on the things he did in MO. *shrug*

My guess at this point is six total mafia, perhaps with underlying restrictions (such as in Sin City), so perhaps the connection between these four is there. I can at least see the connection between Mero and Invalesco. Plus, there needs to be at least one person who kills with firearms (which is a bit of a plus to the theory that Az threw a curveball by adding a major protagonist, like Neo, to the mafia).

Don't know how much that does, but I just felt the need to get it out there.

Also, the fact that there's someone still daykilling really worries me. It's obviously not the mafia, so unless the cult's still alive and kicking (which I personally doubt, but hey, who knows?), perhaps there's another neutral scum. *shudder*