Your definition of "locking horns" seems to be different from mine. What about his prolonged arguments with Sutherlands and Cyan on day 1?
Those are nothing compared to some of the ones I have seen on MT where it can go literally 100 posts and get increasingly innane with the argument. I can link you examples if you want (and feel like a bit of self-torture).
Quote from Puzzle »
What do you think of his reference to "The Kid" that early in the game, subtlely saying Xyre isn't the Kid in the same post where he tries to temper Loran16, who is attacking him ?
Coincidence ?
I'll address each in turn: the part with him tempering the attack from loran16, up until that point, loran had zero interaction with Grakthis and Grakthis had zero interaction with loran. I read at the time as loran knowing Grak played on MT but nothing about Grak's typical playstyle and being annoyed by it in combination with his tone (both tough to deal with the first time you play with him).
Grakthis had just gotten told by both loran and CP that double and triple posting was not the convention here on MTG:S, so I read those two points as disperate thoughts that he was putting into 1 post instead of addressing them in seperate posts.
Reading the reference to "the Kid" in that context I thought that he was just using a pronoun instead of typing out "Spoon boy" again. I don't think that Grakscum would sell out a scumbuddy's role that early in the game when they both are under 0 pressure.
Xyre: are you saying you sent Atlseal a Spoon last Night? Why?
Atlseal: is that true? Did you take it? And what was up with that code thing?
Fade: why did you target Puzzle? I can't remember whether or not this ability is one you can use again or not. Can you?
ZDS: why were you watching Puzzle?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Oh lord. Are you serious? The kid... as in... the bald kid.... the one who said "there is no spoon." Please explain to me how else you would have phrased that?
Who did you replace? Because I may OMGUS you here shortly, because this logic is ridiculous.
Just found Grak's claim :Other problem here : why would a mod like Az ever put a restriction that a townie can only help other townies not get lynched easily ?
Why couldn't such a role target scum, design-wise ? It only makes the role less interesting.
Let alone why he chose to come out at that point, when there was no danger whatsoever.
We were not at LyLo, were we ?
Who would use the -2 to speedlynch against the mason without asking the town first ? If the town agreed, what difference would 2 more votes make ?
What's the point of claiming here ? It just doesn't change at all the likelyhood of a mason getting lynched.
And I'd like to see the reasoning behind HE7's wagon, to explain why he's more of a likely scum that somebody who obviously knew Loran16 was the kid, sent him a hidden message and didn't claim anything that would allow him to know that.
This post is full of lies and misinformation.
1) I didn't know Loran's role. In fact, you lied a few posts ago when you said I referenced "The Kid." I did not reference "The Kid." I referenced "the kid." As in, "the girl." "the boy." "the cat." "the dog." Maybe we should search the thread for everytime someone used a pronoun and then accuse them of something?
2) You are guessing about what my role does, without knowing, and trying to use that as an accusation. This is both bad mafia and wrong. You have no clue what my role does, so stop fishing and speculating.
3) There was danger. Lots of people were talking seriously about lynching ZDS.
3) There was danger. Lots of people were talking seriously about lynching ZDS.
You know, I actually took the time to go back to Grak's claim (post 481), then went about 30 posts backwards and read from there. In view of what I saw, the above point seems contrived. With the possible exception of Sutherlands, NOBODY was talking seriously about lynching ZDS by the time you claimed. Or at all. I encourage everyone to read up on posts 450-481 and see for themselves.
Highlights:
451: Grak argues against Sutherland's masonlynch idea 452: DYH adamantly opposes the masonlynch as well 454: I take the "unpopular stand" and point out we're better off w/o the masons 455: RafK misunderstands me as suggesting to lynch them 456: I explain I mean vigging, not lynching 457: Pod agrees with me 459: ZDS is fine with being vigged 460: fade thinks ZDS isn't scummy 461: Cyan wants to let go of ZDS, and look at other targets, including (ahem) me. 466: CP responds to fade above "nobody's attacking ZDS anymore, who are you arguing against?" 467: fade again: "oops, I misunderstood, I thought you were attacking them". Supports a possible vigging, again opposes the lynch. 472: Vampyr thinks Sutherlands is scummy for his attack on the masons 473: Hvir takes a slight dig at ZDS. Nothing significant. 475: Dagger: "no need to go after a claimed mason", tries to organize a counterattack against atlseal. 476: DYH isn't opposed to vigging. 477: Abbey opposed to vigging. Also says Sutherlands is scummy for his attack on the masons. 479: Grakthis argues against my post 454, also misunderstands (or pretends to misunderstand) my suggestion as lynching, even though I already explained it's not. Offhand mention of other mason coming out. 480: Abbey: "why are you in such a rush to get the other mason to come out?" 481: Grakthis claims. (Was anyone serious about lynching ZDS at this time? You tell me.)
I'd have likely said "the spoon boy" (as Xyre said) and at the very very least "this kid".
The "The" before "kid" just doesn't fit right in this sentence. It just doesn't. It implies some unicity that simply doesn't fit in this context.
I don't know if you were a loose scum element or what, but this "the kid" just doesn't come out right in the answer to Xyre. I'm positive you knew about Loran16.
The manner in which you brush that aside with mockery just betrays your unease to me.
Man... you must love being wrong. You must wallow in it. Do you take something for that? Cause, it's not healthy being this wrong this often.
"spoon boy" is longer than "the kid" and was already said once. Variety makes writing easier. And "this kid" makes no sense. This means "here." You say "this" when it is in front of you, in your hand or otherwise THERE.
The kid in question was not HERE. Was not IN MY HAND. Was not NEAR me.
NOTE MY LACK OF CAPITALIZATION ON THE NAME. It's not a proper name if I do not capitalize it. It's a PRONOUN.
And explain to me, if I were scum, how would I possibly benefit from posting that?. How does it make ANY SENSE for me to broadcast the name of my scum buddy to the town?
Cause, if I were a cop, i'd just claim that right now. And if I am not a cop, then the only way for me to know that is for me to be scum. So where is the benfit?
Quote from Puzzle »
Then, there's your claim : unconfirming and unneeded, presented as the opposite.
If the town was seriously inclined to lynch ZDS, how much of a difference would 2 votes make ?
It doesn't matter if i thought there was a speedlynch danger. I saw an opportunity where I could show how a specific puzzle piece fit together.
Also, as has been already said, when my ability occurs, it will be LOUD AND OBVIOUS to everyone in the game thread... by partially claiming (I have by NO MEANS fully claimed my ability here, so stop acting like I did) I can insure that people will have SOME idea what is happening when it occurs. Otherwise, people are likely to end up standing around going "huh? What just happened?"
Quote from Puzzle »
If you really thought there was a speedlynch danger, why not use your ability instead of just displaying it and asking for advice ?
Nice job reading the thread, scum. I made it pretty clear I can only use my ability when a specific set of circumstances align. I've said that more than once.
Now, I am sure you are scum. Because you're doing exactly what I told everyone in the game that scum do with me. They see me as a huge thread and they overract to my presence. And they leap onto ANY chance to get me mislynched.
Well, scum, it's not working. Vote: Puzzle. You should have figured out from Loran's example how this turns out.
@ Grak :
Just after Arimnaes's daykill : why didn't you mention the possibility of the jack-of-all-trades lying ?
You're so pure and innocent that the thought didn't even cross your mind, did it ?
Seriously.... is this the best you can do, scum? Go "why didn't you X,Y,Z when A,B,C?!? HUH?!?! WHY NOT!??!?!"
i don't know, Puzzle. Why didn't you kill me last night when you had the chance? Why didn't you try to take out the claimed bodyguard? Why didn't you kill ATL?
Because you plan on losing?
Seriously, what does this question even mean?
I didn't post that ATL might be lying because I do not think he's lying. DUH DUH DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHH!!!! Shocking, I know. Take a breather if you need it to absorb that. It's a lot to take in all at once.
Did I mention Vote: Puzzle? If not, i am mentioning it now.
2. ... I'm the freshest fragrance of vanilla since this night, meaning you happy bunch will have to bear with me until the end of the game or my death.
Meaning your role won't keep switching between players anymore?
I am fairly interested in the exchange between Puzzle and Grak right now. I'll admit though that I have Grak listed as town at the beginning of today. But now? Now, I need to do another review and remake my list.
Possible benefits :
- intimidate Loran16 so he stops assaulting you. Again, your response was way too subtle to my taste compared to the Grak I know.
- get the message across that you are a loose mafioso (one who knows the Mafia and works with them but can't PM them and isn't known by the rest).
- etc.
Loran didn't "assualt" me. But hay, you've done enough lying already, why not some more?
You're second bullet point is the only one that makes sense at ALL. And wow, that is a HUGE reach. Not only would I, as a loose mafioso, know that The Kid is in the mafia, but I would KNOW it was Loran and I would be signaling to him in a way that was EXCEPTIONALLY subtle.
Also, acting like I am being toned down from my MT persona is somehow how unusual is simply a sign that you're over reaching, again. Why woudl I possibly be less pushy and abusive here? Oh wait... maybe because this is MTGS and MTGS is not as pushy and loud as MT?!? UNFATHOMABLE!
Quote from Puzzel »
Sorry, I thought you said :
I did. I was unaware when a person did something they could only have one reason for it?
Quote from Puzzle »
And I can make the whole world pink but it would kill the town, so I won't do that. You've got my word though.
That accusation doesn't even make sense. It's as vague and pointless as your "OMG YOU DIDN'T REACT LIKE Y TO Z!!!!!!!!!!!!"
You question my action, then when I explain my motivation to you, yet again (since it was explained earlier, but since you're scum, you didn't read it) you go OMG HOW CAN WE TAKE YOUR WORD FOR IT?!?!?!?!?!
Well, stop asking me then.
Quote from Puzzle »
Ah ! I'm scum because I'm attacking you. I see.
It's fortunate big guys like you don't melt down, else I'd think that's what you are doing right now.
No. You're scum because you're attack on me is TERRIBLE. It's the worst kind of stretch possible. It's a perfect example, text book even, of how scum react to me if they think they have a case.
Lots of people have attacked me in various forms this game, but only you and Loran have demonstrated a very specific TYPE of attack.
One that is based on faulty logic and is clearly a reach.
Quote from Puzzle »
There's a difference between not thinking someone's lying and trusting him to the point of not envisaging the possibility that he may be lying.
Oh? I was unaware that every thought I have is automatically dumped into this game thread. Peculiar.
Quote from Puzzle »
The jack-of-all-trades is a good fake-claim for the Mafia on day 1. It's easy to fake : get an innocent on someone, next claim to have protected someone else and you're already on day 3-4 without problem.
A mafia kill spent on an acceptable vig-target is also feasible.
The role isn't systematically a fake-claim but your reasoning that mafia would never claim that doesn't persuade me.
Good thing my reasons for believing him are ENTIRELY based on his claimed abilities, huh?
Quote from Puzzle »
And that proves my scumminess, right ?
Wow, you're really that good !
Is anyone else noticing that Search is down? I tried to search for "kid" to see how many times it's been said by other players, and no results showed up? I searched a few other words and all came back with none found.
Puzzle's attack is reaching almost as much as HE7 was with DYH yesterday. Puzzle, if you can come up with a solid point other than Grak's use of the words 'the kid', I'll take you seriously.
@Axel: I targeted Puzzle because, like I said, I am interested in simplifying this game if possible. So I was hoping that targeting Charm's replacement would stop the player rotation - which it apparently did, according to Puzzle. And yes, I can use the ability more than once.
Puzzle's attack on Grak strikes me as exceedingly weak. Grak's reactions, though, strike me as scummy, but I'm not sure whether that's normal for him or not.
@Dagger: How is an Oracle claim relevant?
@Xyre: So you gave the spoon to atlseal? Any reason why?
Last time I said a claim was completely out of phase and that this was scummy, it was in LotR Mafia. No one believed me there either but hey, that's Grakthis and he's quite fond of dumping info into the thread for no real reason, right ?
What? Dumping info? What does that even mean? My roleclaim?
Yeah... in fact... if you go back through my history, I tend to roleclaim early. In fact, I said as much ITT. I explained that I like to give info to the town and let the town make the decisions.
You should know this, puzzle, since you've been part of games with me before.
Quote from Puzzle »
Apart from the use of "the kid", his reaction to Loran16's attack early on day 1 was too contained. I know Grak and I can tell you it's not normal. He restrained himself back then for a reason.
Of course it was contained! It was contained because this is MTGS not MT! Ask anyone who played D1 how many times I specifically made comments about restraining myself and how normally I am far louder.
Quote from Puzzle »
It also strikes me as suspicious that Loran16 attacked him the way he did while saying in #64 that he didn't know Grak from before.
First of all, he didn't "attack" me. So stop saying that. He made some comments about me that didn't make a lot of sense. but whatever, that's nitpicking.
And second, yeah... it was suspiscious... and it was the basis of me attacking him more than once. A basis posted IN THE GAME THREAD. I made it VERY clear part of why I was attacking him was based on his reaction to me day 1.
Quote from Dagger »
You are aware that Puzzle replaced Charm, right? Who by all accounts claimed the Oracle?
Oh, the Oracle? You mean the one who worked with and served as the mentor for the little bald kid who bended spoons?
The one who helped Neo, you know, a guy who shot bullets and would have had it in for agents and possibly for fictional characters from outside of the matrix that he felt didn't belong there?
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
@Xyre: So you gave the spoon to atlseal? Any reason why?
Also, atlseal's claim is ridiculously convenient.
Well, at this point, I have a sneaking suspicion that it's worthless anyway, but I decided that it would be nice to protect the claimed Jack. Of course, it also serves as a way to check to make sure he's town, albeit a risky one.
Dagger: Besides the obvious suspiciousness, I have an idea about what he does, although I'm probably wrong and need to do a reread to confirm my thought. And it could just be a coincidence. So the post should really be "Vote Hawkeye because he's rather scummy and we want pressure".
Alright, let's try to make some things more clear:
- What I needed clarified from Az was about my vote counting towards Kraj's lynch Day 1. My initial assumption was that he required +1 to lynch, but Az never told me that if I disappeared that my vote would still count, so that's what I needed to clarify for myself (I was working under the assumption that it did, but I was just making sure). The reason I didn't bring it up again was because I was right in the first place
- Yes, I got a spoon from Xyre last night. No, I didn't take it because I don't trust him about it. None of the abilities made sense to me as I thought I made clear yesterday. Although, the code protection thing now seems to fit with things like the cult and the vanilla maker flavor.
- I didn't become vanilla night 2, it was the second that I was forced to reformat due to data errors (the kill). That would be day 2.
- As it stands, I no longer have any of the benefits or downsides of my role from earlier. Like I said, vanilla
I'm still want attention up on Hawkeye and the current stuff between Puzzle and Grak seems just like bickering to me. I hate bickering.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
Oh, the Oracle? You mean the one who worked with and served as the mentor for the little bald kid who bended spoons?
That's Xyre's claimed character isn't it, the spoon boy? Not the same as Loran's "Kid".
Quote from Grakthis »
The one who helped Neo, you know, a guy who shot bullets and would have had it in for agents and possibly for fictional characters from outside of the matrix that he felt didn't belong there?
Do you have special information about Neo that we should know about?
I'm inclined to the Merovingian and the Exiles as the mafia personally, what with the vampire thing and the Kid making a "deal" with someone and all.
Also, as has been already said, when my ability occurs, it will be LOUD AND OBVIOUS to everyone in the game thread... by partially claiming (I have by NO MEANS fully claimed my ability here, so stop acting like I did) I can insure that people will have SOME idea what is happening when it occurs. Otherwise, people are likely to end up standing around going "huh? What just happened?"
I think ZDS has been cleared enough to take a chance on, and that was what you were waiting for right? Go remove his drawback then, loudly and obviously.
Partial or not, your claim was that you could do that, and given we've now seen several other ways to remove that kind of drawback (particularly the Smith avatar and fade's ability), your partial claim looks more questionable than it once did.
- I didn't become vanilla night 2, it was the second that I was forced to reformat due to data errors (the kill). That would be day 2.
- As it stands, I no longer have any of the benefits or downsides of my role from earlier. Like I said, vanilla
This does not jive with:
Quote from Azrael »
You find Pod, aka Private Detective Ash, Townie Cop, on the 13th floor. There is a gaping wound around his ankle, and his body is covered with superficial scratches. His gun lies just a few feet from his right hand with a full clip of bullets, the hand itself is almost severed. Around his neck, you find two deep puncture wounds. He lies in a pool of his own blood, which the rain water is only beginning to dilute. It rolls past him, and down the steps with an added tint of pink. He's pale as a fish's belly.
Emphasis mine.
I don't know about anyone else, but when I read that, the first thing I thought of was a cat killing Pod. The wound on his ankle, the superficial scratches and two deep puncture wounds all sound like a cat biting and clawing atlseal. That is the reason why I asked atlseal about his vanilla-ness. Since he claims to have been vanilla last night, I think that a vote: atlseal is in order at this point.
That's Xyre's claimed character isn't it, the spoon boy? Not the same as Loran's "Kid".
WTF? Then what is he even talking about? We were discussing two completely different characters.
The Kid is the one who was convinced Neo was his savior or something like that?
Quote from Rafael »
Do you have special information about Neo that we should know about?
No. But looking at most of the roleclaims and dead list so far, it's looking increasingly to me like main protagonists FROM the matrix are not part of the town. I mean, it's possible we just aren't seeing them yet, but we've had a lot of roleclaims and a lot of obscure characters and characters from other stories.
He got daykilled, by a bullet. Nothing to do with the vampire/cat nightkills.
YOu may have missed this, but atlseal's claim has EVERYTHING to do with vampire/cat nightkills. A little history:
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2089507&postcount=598"]Post 598:[/URL] Claims Cheshire Cat
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2089576&postcount=606"]Post 606:[/URL] Claims JoAT with the following abilities and drawbacks
Quote from atlseal Post 606 »
My night abilities to choose from are: supercop (I get a player's name and role), doc, vig, and roleblock.
My -2 drawback comes from the grin emoticon. I have to use it once per day or be modkilled and once I use it, I'm at -2 to lynch.[/url]
In the Night Scene after the post you said poops in my chocolate mousse: [URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2131454&postcount=1765"]Post 1765:[/URL] atlseal is listed as "in limbo", not dead. Note that his role/alignment are not revealed by the daykill.
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2140188&postcount=1769"]Post 1769[/URL] atlseal returns and has a "reformatting post" where he supposedly is now vanilla.
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2166379&postcount=2179"]Post 2179[/URL] Disappearance part of his role but not originally claimed
I think ZDS has been cleared enough to take a chance on, and that was what you were waiting for right? Go remove his drawback then, loudly and obviously.
Partial or not, your claim was that you could do that, and given we've now seen several other ways to remove that kind of drawback (particularly the Smith avatar and fade's ability), your partial claim looks more questionable than it once did.
I made it pretty clear, 3 times now, I can only use it when specific circumstances align.
Quote from puzzle »
Loran16's interaction with him in #46 is something I just don't see happening simply with the game context there was back then.
Duh. Because Loran was scum. Which I called him on specifically for how he responded to me. And, amazingly, I was right.
Quote from Puzzle »
Grak's partial claim came out for no reason. I don't see what he brought to the table with it for the town. He now explains that it was to prepare his full claim but that wasn't his story back then and I can't see how keeping this info for later could have been damageable to his claim. And this comes from someone who gave lessons to people about not giving away info unduely.
weeeeeeee more lying! I've already explained why I provided a partial claim when I did. And it's not "to prepare my full claim."
So, your first lie is that It came for "no reason." Then, you prove your own lie, by actually POSTING a reason. Except, you lie about the reason to.
Keep tossing out lies, Puzzle. Because everytime you lie, it makes it a little easier to lynch you.
Quote from Puzzle »
I've played 1 game with you as a player in total : Dantes's. You didn't claim there. Can you please back this up because you saying so in the thread doesn't prove it (Don't forget to sound outraged when I say that) ?
Also include references to games where you claimed early, kplsthx.
All of the following are UNPRESSURED CLAIMS:
-Star Wars (MT). Claimed day 1 as luke skywalker, question asker.
-Revenge of the Toys (ML). Claimed day 1 with a role that had to choose a player and join their team.
-Unnamed Mafia (MT). Claimed day 1 with a 1-shot day kill that I used at the towns behest.
-Legends Mafia (ML). Claimed day 1 because I faked an ability. I had a night ability that protected a target from all NON-MAFIA kill actions, but I claimed it stoped all actions and claimed I was protecting myself.
In all of those I was town, I was under no pressure, and I claimed day 1 because it was beneficial to do so.
Quote from Puzzle »
And you think that's not aggressive ?
There you go, putting words into my mouth again. We're discussing wheather or not something is an attack, and rather than say "you think that's not an attack?" you change it to "you think that's not aggressive?" Why do that, Puzzle? Unless you're trying to manipulate people.
Quote from Puzzle »
Also, I understand the meaning of these comments. I disagree with them but I don't find them nonsensical at all.
And if they were just nonsensical, how can they be the base for you attacking
Waht? He said non-sensical things. I attacked him for posting nonsense. I am not sure where you are confused. Unless you do not understand the meaning of nonsense?
Quote from Puzzle »
Next step : PBPA of Grak. Not a detailed one but I'll just concentrate on his activity in unsettling scums, which he always boasts doing when he's a townie.
Yeah, I know, rite? Cause voting for Loran since day 1 is totally not a demonstration or anything. Good thing you're here to look it up for us.
On an unrelated note
The whole cat-kill thing sounds bogus to me. It's pretty clearly vampiric and not cat related. That being said, I do not like ATL claiming he's vanilla right now. But the flavor of his vanishing was pretty obviously Cheshire cat-like.
I mean, if he's not a Jack anymore, it's kinda hard to defend him on that basis.
Post 2179 Disappearance part of his role but not originally claimed
Let me get this straight... You are claiming that it's in the town's best interest for the JoAT to inform you that he dodges the first kill against him, but when he does that, he loses all his abilities and becomes vanilla? If so, forgive me for wanting to keep that secret.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
That doesn't even make any sense, and the fact that you 'dodged' your first kill(which involved disappearing for the rest of the day, in a completely cheshire cat like fashion) before you posted your grin smiley thing, but didn't suffer any of the penalties that you stated you would..also doesn't make sense. Something really seems off about all of this.
Unvote though, because the more Grakthis responds to Puzzle, the worse off he sounds. As well as the whole 'I can only use my ability when certain things happen' sounding like complete and utter BS. Vote grakthis
Let me get this straight... You are claiming that it's in the town's best interest for the JoAT to inform you that he dodges the first kill against him, but when he does that, he loses all his abilities and becomes vanilla? If so, forgive me for wanting to keep that secret.
No, I am saying that I think it is likely you never were a JoaT.
@Puzzle: I think that Loran's response there makes alot more sense w/ atlseal and loran both being scum than with loran being scum and atlseal being town, honestly.
Argh, hit reply before I could get done...I also wanted to say that this is another case of atlseal picking out the weakest/unrelated point against him and focuses on that, ignoring the stronger points against him.
That doesn't even make any sense, and the fact that you 'dodged' your first kill(which involved disappearing for the rest of the day, in a completely cheshire cat like fashion) before you posted your grin smiley thing, but didn't suffer any of the penalties that you stated you would..also doesn't make sense. Something really seems off about all of this.
Unvote though, because the more Grakthis responds to Puzzle, the worse off he sounds. As well as the whole 'I can only use my ability when certain things happen' sounding like complete and utter BS. Vote grakthis
Atlseal's last post does make sense: he's saying that telling everyone about the kill dodge effectively makes it useless. Atlseal's claim also make sense if you take into account that he became vanilla after disappearing. If his role was JOAT + a kill dodge that makes him vanilla, then things all seem to fit together.
But just because what he's saying more or less fits doesn't make it true. I still don't like atlseal or his claim.
I'd noticed Cyan's point on Grak, too. His claim is hilariously vague (hey guys, I have a really good and cool ability that I'll eventually use when some things happen). I want to reread him vs Puzzle before I vote, thoguh.
Puzzle: how come post 1517 convinced you Loran and atlseal aren't together, but post 1552 didn't convince you Grak and Loran aren't together? Can you please explain the differences?
I agree that the way he put it makes sense, I just don't think that the role itself makes sense, especially combined with the 'I have to use the grin smiley or I get modkilled' bit. Especially since he A)didn't use the grin smiley before disappearing and B)didn't get modkilled.
Also, I disagree that telling everyone about the kill dodge makes the role useless. If he is being truthful about his role, I would say that telling everyone about that aspect of his role makes him less of a target, not more of one. From a scum perspective, trading one of your kills to make someone lose a 1 shot RB and 1 shot Vig doesn't seem like a good deal, IMO.
I agree that the way he put it makes sense, I just don't think that the role itself makes sense, especially combined with the 'I have to use the grin smiley or I get modkilled' bit. Especially since he A)didn't use the grin smiley before disappearing and B)didn't get modkilled.
Also, I disagree that telling everyone about the kill dodge makes the role useless. If he is being truthful about his role, I would say that telling everyone about that aspect of his role makes him less of a target, not more of one. From a scum perspective, trading one of your kills to make someone lose a 1 shot RB and 1 shot Vig doesn't seem like a good deal, IMO.
I agree completely with your first paragraph. This is what I meant when I said I didn't like his claim. I guess your second paragraph makes sense, too. I wasn't thinking about the fact that he'd become vanilla. Still, it might be more valuable to make the mafia waste a kill accidentally then to have a single shot of vig, rb, and doc.
Whatever. The point is that atlseal's claim is weird and very much questionable.
You know what I am spending virtually every waking minute of my spare time on right now? Researching buying a big screen TV. It is a complete nightmare out there.
So I apologize to all for being inattentive. I like that Puzzle's involved, but I'm not sure about his whole Grak attack. Grakthis has been strange, but I'm not convinced it's scummy-strange yet.
Grakthis: didn't you claim that you already tried to use your ability at least once this game? On ZDS? Am I remembering that wrong?
I will still do a whole thing on Loran and Pod, but I don't know when.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
No, atlseal being targetted by the SK makes him likely not the SK. His information role aspect reinforces that too.
Loran16 calling for LJ's inspection to be used on atlseal meant that atlseal wouldn't be able to fake any investigation report.
When atlseal revealed his result, Loran16 wanted him lynched before Kraj.
Both of these points make atlseal very unlikely to be a scum-partner to Loran16.
Clearer ?
Yeah, that makes sense.
Vote atlseal. I don't think Grak's been acting any different recently than he has all game, and I don't see Puzzle's case as very strong. Atlseal's claim now makes sense (except for the original drawback thing being stupid), but it's too convenient. I don't like it.
Grakthis: didn't you claim that you already tried to use your ability at least once this game? On ZDS? Am I remembering that wrong?
You're remembering wrong.
I have 2 abilities. One of them is used at night, one of them during the day. The night ability only really happens when a specific set of circumstances aligns. The day ability I have the option of using everyday.
From the flavor, I'd say Pod's been killed by a vampire or a werewolf.
Another thing, atlseal's claim look more like a case of someone not knowing everything about his role, than convenience, to me.
The description reads "Bitten and Drained". How do you get a Werewolf from that?
Not knowing everything about his role?
What do you mean by that?
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Well, I have to agree with ZDS that "Bitten and Drained" makes a whole lot more sense for a werewolf than for a cat. That said, atl is plenty scummy for other reasons. I decline to join that wagon, however, until we're settled on the good reasons for lynching atl.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
You all do realize that LJustus was also "bitten and drained" night 1? Didn't our good friend atlseal give us a result on the cult leader the next morning? So how could he have killed LJustus?
@Alx : Why not now ? It's not like the scums can benefit from knowing this.
@Hawkeye : The scratches fit an animal more than a vampire, and wiki tells us there are werewolves along the vamps.
Perhaps I'm missing something. Wiki tells you there are werewolves along with vampires, where?
The description is that the victims were "bitten and drained". I know of no werewolf that drains a victim while or after they bite them. also most descriptions of vampires, especially classic vampire descriptions indicate that long and sharp finger nails are fairly common for vampires to have. that could accopunt for the scratches, particularly if the victim put up a struggle.
I don't see the werewolf connection here.
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You all do realize that LJustus was also "bitten and drained" night 1? Didn't our good friend atlseal give us a result on the cult leader the next morning? So how could he have killed LJustus?
You are missing an obvious way: maybe he got the investigation result from elsewhere?
@ATL if another ability, such as a bodyguard or doc, were protecting you from a kill, would your own kill-dodge still have kicked in?
Az never made that clear in the PM, but I'll go ahead and ask him for you.
@AG making the claim that I only argued the weakest part of the accusation: The only other part of your accusation was that the flavor seemed like a "cat kill" to you. Well, what more would there be to say than it seemed like a "vampire kill" to me? Two conflicting viewpoints with no real supporting evidence does not an argument make.
The point was brought up, and I think it is valid. Grak, is there any way we can help you set-up your ability?
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
You want to lynch him because his claim is too good.
The fact that he hid his survival ability bothers me too but the move is justifiable.
Apart from that, what's the problem exactly ? As a mafia investigator, he probably wouldn't have claimed RBer in the Joat, as the role-block would be hard to fake without the mafia giving up a role-block one night and risking the flavour of the RB outing him. Same thing for the vig.
And I doubt he planned to get daykilled and survive to avoid having to take these two actions.
I haven't liked atlseal since day 1, and the gut feeling remains. Plus, the -2 to lynch drawback just doesn't make any sense.
I don't like it. But I suppose you do have a point in there. And so does Xyre. Unvote.
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Those are nothing compared to some of the ones I have seen on MT where it can go literally 100 posts and get increasingly innane with the argument. I can link you examples if you want (and feel like a bit of self-torture).
I'll address each in turn: the part with him tempering the attack from loran16, up until that point, loran had zero interaction with Grakthis and Grakthis had zero interaction with loran. I read at the time as loran knowing Grak played on MT but nothing about Grak's typical playstyle and being annoyed by it in combination with his tone (both tough to deal with the first time you play with him).
Grakthis had just gotten told by both loran and CP that double and triple posting was not the convention here on MTG:S, so I read those two points as disperate thoughts that he was putting into 1 post instead of addressing them in seperate posts.
Reading the reference to "the Kid" in that context I thought that he was just using a pronoun instead of typing out "Spoon boy" again. I don't think that Grakscum would sell out a scumbuddy's role that early in the game when they both are under 0 pressure.
Xyre: are you saying you sent Atlseal a Spoon last Night? Why?
Atlseal: is that true? Did you take it? And what was up with that code thing?
Fade: why did you target Puzzle? I can't remember whether or not this ability is one you can use again or not. Can you?
ZDS: why were you watching Puzzle?
Uh... what?
Oh lord. Are you serious? The kid... as in... the bald kid.... the one who said "there is no spoon." Please explain to me how else you would have phrased that?
Who did you replace? Because I may OMGUS you here shortly, because this logic is ridiculous.
This post is full of lies and misinformation.
1) I didn't know Loran's role. In fact, you lied a few posts ago when you said I referenced "The Kid." I did not reference "The Kid." I referenced "the kid." As in, "the girl." "the boy." "the cat." "the dog." Maybe we should search the thread for everytime someone used a pronoun and then accuse them of something?
2) You are guessing about what my role does, without knowing, and trying to use that as an accusation. This is both bad mafia and wrong. You have no clue what my role does, so stop fishing and speculating.
3) There was danger. Lots of people were talking seriously about lynching ZDS.
You know, I actually took the time to go back to Grak's claim (post 481), then went about 30 posts backwards and read from there. In view of what I saw, the above point seems contrived. With the possible exception of Sutherlands, NOBODY was talking seriously about lynching ZDS by the time you claimed. Or at all. I encourage everyone to read up on posts 450-481 and see for themselves.
Highlights:
451: Grak argues against Sutherland's masonlynch idea
452: DYH adamantly opposes the masonlynch as well
454: I take the "unpopular stand" and point out we're better off w/o the masons
455: RafK misunderstands me as suggesting to lynch them
456: I explain I mean vigging, not lynching
457: Pod agrees with me
459: ZDS is fine with being vigged
460: fade thinks ZDS isn't scummy
461: Cyan wants to let go of ZDS, and look at other targets, including (ahem) me.
466: CP responds to fade above "nobody's attacking ZDS anymore, who are you arguing against?"
467: fade again: "oops, I misunderstood, I thought you were attacking them". Supports a possible vigging, again opposes the lynch.
472: Vampyr thinks Sutherlands is scummy for his attack on the masons
473: Hvir takes a slight dig at ZDS. Nothing significant.
475: Dagger: "no need to go after a claimed mason", tries to organize a counterattack against atlseal.
476: DYH isn't opposed to vigging.
477: Abbey opposed to vigging. Also says Sutherlands is scummy for his attack on the masons.
479: Grakthis argues against my post 454, also misunderstands (or pretends to misunderstand) my suggestion as lynching, even though I already explained it's not. Offhand mention of other mason coming out.
480: Abbey: "why are you in such a rush to get the other mason to come out?"
481: Grakthis claims. (Was anyone serious about lynching ZDS at this time? You tell me.)
Puzzle may be on to something here.
Man... you must love being wrong. You must wallow in it. Do you take something for that? Cause, it's not healthy being this wrong this often.
"spoon boy" is longer than "the kid" and was already said once. Variety makes writing easier. And "this kid" makes no sense. This means "here." You say "this" when it is in front of you, in your hand or otherwise THERE.
The kid in question was not HERE. Was not IN MY HAND. Was not NEAR me.
NOTE MY LACK OF CAPITALIZATION ON THE NAME. It's not a proper name if I do not capitalize it. It's a PRONOUN.
And explain to me, if I were scum, how would I possibly benefit from posting that?. How does it make ANY SENSE for me to broadcast the name of my scum buddy to the town?
Cause, if I were a cop, i'd just claim that right now. And if I am not a cop, then the only way for me to know that is for me to be scum. So where is the benfit?
It doesn't matter if i thought there was a speedlynch danger. I saw an opportunity where I could show how a specific puzzle piece fit together.
Also, as has been already said, when my ability occurs, it will be LOUD AND OBVIOUS to everyone in the game thread... by partially claiming (I have by NO MEANS fully claimed my ability here, so stop acting like I did) I can insure that people will have SOME idea what is happening when it occurs. Otherwise, people are likely to end up standing around going "huh? What just happened?"
Nice job reading the thread, scum. I made it pretty clear I can only use my ability when a specific set of circumstances align. I've said that more than once.
Now, I am sure you are scum. Because you're doing exactly what I told everyone in the game that scum do with me. They see me as a huge thread and they overract to my presence. And they leap onto ANY chance to get me mislynched.
Well, scum, it's not working. Vote: Puzzle. You should have figured out from Loran's example how this turns out.
Seriously.... is this the best you can do, scum? Go "why didn't you X,Y,Z when A,B,C?!? HUH?!?! WHY NOT!??!?!"
i don't know, Puzzle. Why didn't you kill me last night when you had the chance? Why didn't you try to take out the claimed bodyguard? Why didn't you kill ATL?
Because you plan on losing?
Seriously, what does this question even mean?
I didn't post that ATL might be lying because I do not think he's lying. DUH DUH DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHH!!!! Shocking, I know. Take a breather if you need it to absorb that. It's a lot to take in all at once.
Did I mention Vote: Puzzle? If not, i am mentioning it now.
I am assuming we'll never know said reasons?
Meaning your role won't keep switching between players anymore?
I am fairly interested in the exchange between Puzzle and Grak right now. I'll admit though that I have Grak listed as town at the beginning of today. But now? Now, I need to do another review and remake my list.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
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Nothing that would be advantageous to claim at this point. But thanks for asking.
Loran didn't "assualt" me. But hay, you've done enough lying already, why not some more?
You're second bullet point is the only one that makes sense at ALL. And wow, that is a HUGE reach. Not only would I, as a loose mafioso, know that The Kid is in the mafia, but I would KNOW it was Loran and I would be signaling to him in a way that was EXCEPTIONALLY subtle.
Also, acting like I am being toned down from my MT persona is somehow how unusual is simply a sign that you're over reaching, again. Why woudl I possibly be less pushy and abusive here? Oh wait... maybe because this is MTGS and MTGS is not as pushy and loud as MT?!? UNFATHOMABLE!
I did. I was unaware when a person did something they could only have one reason for it?
That accusation doesn't even make sense. It's as vague and pointless as your "OMG YOU DIDN'T REACT LIKE Y TO Z!!!!!!!!!!!!"
You question my action, then when I explain my motivation to you, yet again (since it was explained earlier, but since you're scum, you didn't read it) you go OMG HOW CAN WE TAKE YOUR WORD FOR IT?!?!?!?!?!
Well, stop asking me then.
No. You're scum because you're attack on me is TERRIBLE. It's the worst kind of stretch possible. It's a perfect example, text book even, of how scum react to me if they think they have a case.
Lots of people have attacked me in various forms this game, but only you and Loran have demonstrated a very specific TYPE of attack.
One that is based on faulty logic and is clearly a reach.
Oh? I was unaware that every thought I have is automatically dumped into this game thread. Peculiar.
Good thing my reasons for believing him are ENTIRELY based on his claimed abilities, huh?
res ipsa loquiter. Your scuminess proves itself.
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Puzzle's attack on Grak strikes me as exceedingly weak. Grak's reactions, though, strike me as scummy, but I'm not sure whether that's normal for him or not.
@Dagger: How is an Oracle claim relevant?
@Xyre: So you gave the spoon to atlseal? Any reason why?
Also, atlseal's claim is ridiculously convenient.
What? Dumping info? What does that even mean? My roleclaim?
Yeah... in fact... if you go back through my history, I tend to roleclaim early. In fact, I said as much ITT. I explained that I like to give info to the town and let the town make the decisions.
You should know this, puzzle, since you've been part of games with me before.
Of course it was contained! It was contained because this is MTGS not MT! Ask anyone who played D1 how many times I specifically made comments about restraining myself and how normally I am far louder.
First of all, he didn't "attack" me. So stop saying that. He made some comments about me that didn't make a lot of sense. but whatever, that's nitpicking.
And second, yeah... it was suspiscious... and it was the basis of me attacking him more than once. A basis posted IN THE GAME THREAD. I made it VERY clear part of why I was attacking him was based on his reaction to me day 1.
Oh, the Oracle? You mean the one who worked with and served as the mentor for the little bald kid who bended spoons?
The one who helped Neo, you know, a guy who shot bullets and would have had it in for agents and possibly for fictional characters from outside of the matrix that he felt didn't belong there?
Shocking.
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Well, at this point, I have a sneaking suspicion that it's worthless anyway, but I decided that it would be nice to protect the claimed Jack. Of course, it also serves as a way to check to make sure he's town, albeit a risky one.
Dagger: Besides the obvious suspiciousness, I have an idea about what he does, although I'm probably wrong and need to do a reread to confirm my thought. And it could just be a coincidence. So the post should really be "Vote Hawkeye because he's rather scummy and we want pressure".
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- What I needed clarified from Az was about my vote counting towards Kraj's lynch Day 1. My initial assumption was that he required +1 to lynch, but Az never told me that if I disappeared that my vote would still count, so that's what I needed to clarify for myself (I was working under the assumption that it did, but I was just making sure). The reason I didn't bring it up again was because I was right in the first place
- Yes, I got a spoon from Xyre last night. No, I didn't take it because I don't trust him about it. None of the abilities made sense to me as I thought I made clear yesterday. Although, the code protection thing now seems to fit with things like the cult and the vanilla maker flavor.
- I didn't become vanilla night 2, it was the second that I was forced to reformat due to data errors (the kill). That would be day 2.
- As it stands, I no longer have any of the benefits or downsides of my role from earlier. Like I said, vanilla
I'm still want attention up on Hawkeye and the current stuff between Puzzle and Grak seems just like bickering to me. I hate bickering.
That's Xyre's claimed character isn't it, the spoon boy? Not the same as Loran's "Kid".
Do you have special information about Neo that we should know about?
I'm inclined to the Merovingian and the Exiles as the mafia personally, what with the vampire thing and the Kid making a "deal" with someone and all.
I think ZDS has been cleared enough to take a chance on, and that was what you were waiting for right? Go remove his drawback then, loudly and obviously.
Partial or not, your claim was that you could do that, and given we've now seen several other ways to remove that kind of drawback (particularly the Smith avatar and fade's ability), your partial claim looks more questionable than it once did.
This does not jive with:
Emphasis mine.
I don't know about anyone else, but when I read that, the first thing I thought of was a cat killing Pod. The wound on his ankle, the superficial scratches and two deep puncture wounds all sound like a cat biting and clawing atlseal. That is the reason why I asked atlseal about his vanilla-ness. Since he claims to have been vanilla last night, I think that a
vote: atlseal is in order at this point.
I don't see how that poops in the chocolate mousse??
WTF? Then what is he even talking about? We were discussing two completely different characters.
The Kid is the one who was convinced Neo was his savior or something like that?
No. But looking at most of the roleclaims and dead list so far, it's looking increasingly to me like main protagonists FROM the matrix are not part of the town. I mean, it's possible we just aren't seeing them yet, but we've had a lot of roleclaims and a lot of obscure characters and characters from other stories.
YOu may have missed this, but atlseal's claim has EVERYTHING to do with vampire/cat nightkills. A little history:
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2089507&postcount=598"]Post 598:[/URL] Claims Cheshire Cat
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2089576&postcount=606"]Post 606:[/URL] Claims JoAT with the following abilities and drawbacks
In the Night Scene after the post you said poops in my chocolate mousse: [URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2131454&postcount=1765"]Post 1765:[/URL] atlseal is listed as "in limbo", not dead. Note that his role/alignment are not revealed by the daykill.
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2140188&postcount=1769"]Post 1769[/URL] atlseal returns and has a "reformatting post" where he supposedly is now vanilla.
[URL="http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2166379&postcount=2179"]Post 2179[/URL] Disappearance part of his role but not originally claimed
I made it pretty clear, 3 times now, I can only use it when specific circumstances align.
Duh. Because Loran was scum. Which I called him on specifically for how he responded to me. And, amazingly, I was right.
weeeeeeee more lying! I've already explained why I provided a partial claim when I did. And it's not "to prepare my full claim."
So, your first lie is that It came for "no reason." Then, you prove your own lie, by actually POSTING a reason. Except, you lie about the reason to.
Keep tossing out lies, Puzzle. Because everytime you lie, it makes it a little easier to lynch you.
All of the following are UNPRESSURED CLAIMS:
-Star Wars (MT). Claimed day 1 as luke skywalker, question asker.
-Revenge of the Toys (ML). Claimed day 1 with a role that had to choose a player and join their team.
-Unnamed Mafia (MT). Claimed day 1 with a 1-shot day kill that I used at the towns behest.
-Legends Mafia (ML). Claimed day 1 because I faked an ability. I had a night ability that protected a target from all NON-MAFIA kill actions, but I claimed it stoped all actions and claimed I was protecting myself.
In all of those I was town, I was under no pressure, and I claimed day 1 because it was beneficial to do so.
There you go, putting words into my mouth again. We're discussing wheather or not something is an attack, and rather than say "you think that's not an attack?" you change it to "you think that's not aggressive?" Why do that, Puzzle? Unless you're trying to manipulate people.
Waht? He said non-sensical things. I attacked him for posting nonsense. I am not sure where you are confused. Unless you do not understand the meaning of nonsense?
Yeah, I know, rite? Cause voting for Loran since day 1 is totally not a demonstration or anything. Good thing you're here to look it up for us.
On an unrelated note
The whole cat-kill thing sounds bogus to me. It's pretty clearly vampiric and not cat related. That being said, I do not like ATL claiming he's vanilla right now. But the flavor of his vanishing was pretty obviously Cheshire cat-like.
I mean, if he's not a Jack anymore, it's kinda hard to defend him on that basis.
Let me get this straight... You are claiming that it's in the town's best interest for the JoAT to inform you that he dodges the first kill against him, but when he does that, he loses all his abilities and becomes vanilla? If so, forgive me for wanting to keep that secret.
Unvote though, because the more Grakthis responds to Puzzle, the worse off he sounds. As well as the whole 'I can only use my ability when certain things happen' sounding like complete and utter BS. Vote grakthis
No, I am saying that I think it is likely you never were a JoaT.
@Puzzle: I think that Loran's response there makes alot more sense w/ atlseal and loran both being scum than with loran being scum and atlseal being town, honestly.
Atlseal's last post does make sense: he's saying that telling everyone about the kill dodge effectively makes it useless. Atlseal's claim also make sense if you take into account that he became vanilla after disappearing. If his role was JOAT + a kill dodge that makes him vanilla, then things all seem to fit together.
But just because what he's saying more or less fits doesn't make it true. I still don't like atlseal or his claim.
I'd noticed Cyan's point on Grak, too. His claim is hilariously vague (hey guys, I have a really good and cool ability that I'll eventually use when some things happen). I want to reread him vs Puzzle before I vote, thoguh.
Also, I disagree that telling everyone about the kill dodge makes the role useless. If he is being truthful about his role, I would say that telling everyone about that aspect of his role makes him less of a target, not more of one. From a scum perspective, trading one of your kills to make someone lose a 1 shot RB and 1 shot Vig doesn't seem like a good deal, IMO.
I agree completely with your first paragraph. This is what I meant when I said I didn't like his claim. I guess your second paragraph makes sense, too. I wasn't thinking about the fact that he'd become vanilla. Still, it might be more valuable to make the mafia waste a kill accidentally then to have a single shot of vig, rb, and doc.
Whatever. The point is that atlseal's claim is weird and very much questionable.
@ATL if another ability, such as a bodyguard or doc, were protecting you from a kill, would your own kill-dodge still have kicked in?
So I apologize to all for being inattentive. I like that Puzzle's involved, but I'm not sure about his whole Grak attack. Grakthis has been strange, but I'm not convinced it's scummy-strange yet.
Grakthis: didn't you claim that you already tried to use your ability at least once this game? On ZDS? Am I remembering that wrong?
I will still do a whole thing on Loran and Pod, but I don't know when.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Vote atlseal. I don't think Grak's been acting any different recently than he has all game, and I don't see Puzzle's case as very strong. Atlseal's claim now makes sense (except for the original drawback thing being stupid), but it's too convenient. I don't like it.
You're remembering wrong.
I have 2 abilities. One of them is used at night, one of them during the day. The night ability only really happens when a specific set of circumstances aligns. The day ability I have the option of using everyday.
Maybe later.
The description reads "Bitten and Drained". How do you get a Werewolf from that?
Not knowing everything about his role?
What do you mean by that?
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Perhaps I'm missing something. Wiki tells you there are werewolves along with vampires, where?
The description is that the victims were "bitten and drained". I know of no werewolf that drains a victim while or after they bite them. also most descriptions of vampires, especially classic vampire descriptions indicate that long and sharp finger nails are fairly common for vampires to have. that could accopunt for the scratches, particularly if the victim put up a struggle.
I don't see the werewolf connection here.
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Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
You are missing an obvious way: maybe he got the investigation result from elsewhere?
Az never made that clear in the PM, but I'll go ahead and ask him for you.
@AG making the claim that I only argued the weakest part of the accusation: The only other part of your accusation was that the flavor seemed like a "cat kill" to you. Well, what more would there be to say than it seemed like a "vampire kill" to me? Two conflicting viewpoints with no real supporting evidence does not an argument make.
The point was brought up, and I think it is valid. Grak, is there any way we can help you set-up your ability?
I haven't liked atlseal since day 1, and the gut feeling remains. Plus, the -2 to lynch drawback just doesn't make any sense.
I don't like it. But I suppose you do have a point in there. And so does Xyre. Unvote.