MTG Salvation

How silly.

I am the kid (from kid story, bit-parts in Matrix movies reloaded and revolutions, and matrix online).

That's all i'm claiming for now.

I don't get it. What kid? Is this a character we can look up on Wikipedia or anything, or is he just an extra? Maybe you can say what he did in the movies, at least, to give us some kind of an idea who you're talking about?

Info on 'The Kid': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minor_characters_in_the_Matrix_series#Kid

The dissappearance was part of my role, but I did not have any control over it.

I don't see why loran believes that just giving his rolename is supposed to change anything.

I'd like to hear the rest.

Quote from atlseal

Info on 'The Kid': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minor_characters_in_the_Matrix_series#Kid

The dissappearance was part of my role, but I did not have any control over it.

Ooo, Ooo, is it: "You may choose to fire at yourself. If you do so, instead of dying, you will simply disappear for the day...."

Quote from loran16

How silly.

I am the kid (from kid story, bit-parts in Matrix movies reloaded and revolutions, and matrix online).

That's all i'm claiming for now.

You know, I might even be inclined to give you points for being "the kid," but possibilities of (1) scum with townish-sounding role names, or (2) scum with safe claims, means that just giving a name can't be everything.

I didnt think it would, but i have reasons to not want to fully roleclaim....

Hmmmm lets see about this.....

Okay, Ill partial claim. I have a limited amount of nightkills (not tellin the #), and as thus i have not used it yet.

That's all im telling for now.

"the kid"....with Night kills?

Quote from Axelrod

"the kid"....with Night kills?

I'd prefer not to explain, as doing so would hinder me winning this game.

EBWODP (i have not full claimed and would really like to avoid that for now. So dont go lynchin me while im away (im going away for a bit right now))

Thanks.

Quote from loran16

I'd prefer not to explain, as doing so would hinder me winning this game.

This sounds like some kind of alternate win condition. So if that's what it is you had best fess up now.

an AWC? sounds like a limited SK to me...either that or a survivor that wins with/has to kill off neo. either way, it's enough for a CONFIRM VOTE

Vote count
8 Loran16- Abbeygargoyle, grakthis, J-Effe IV, Dagger, Axelrod, ZDS, Charm_Master, Vampyr
3 Hawkeye7- Cyan, CP, atlseal
1 atlseal- Spoon
1 AbbeyGargoyle - Alx2

Quote from Charm_Master3125

an AWC? sounds like a limited SK to me...either that or a survivor that wins with/has to kill off neo. either way, it's enough for a CONFIRM VOTE

Vote count
8 Loran16- Abbeygargoyle, grakthis, J-Effe IV, Dagger, Axelrod, ZDS, Charm_Master, Vampyr
3 Hawkeye7- Cyan, CP, atlseal
1 atlseal- Spoon
1 AbbeyGargoyle - Alx2

Uh... this is an Az game. In his last game, besides pure mafia or town WCs, he had a player who needed to achieve a condition to become town, a non-SK neutral who had to kill specific people, a survivor, not to mention numerous roles that could switch sides on certain conditions. I'd say the odds of him being an SK just because he has an AWC are low.

Heh. I was going to do my own PBPA on loran once we got to the weekend and I had time, but I suppose it's just been somewhat superceded. I may do it anyway... at least part of the reason was for comparison to other people's PBPAs and to see if anyone's been exaggerating or twisting the truth.

Loran, you've just given away that you're a neutral with a potential anti-town agenda. I'm pretty happy to leave neutrals alone if I'm convinced they're neutral, since neutral hunting is probably not smart. But you need to convince us that you ARE neutral, and that you aren't going to go around ganking town power roles with these nightkills you say you have.

Quote from Pod

Quote from RafaelK »

I'm pretty happy to leave neutrals alone if I'm convinced they're neutral, since neutral hunting is probably not smart.

*shrug* Depends entirely on the neutral he claims. 70-80% of the time, neutrals ain't beneficial for the town to keep around though.

Perhaps not all the way to the end of the game, but the 20-30% are and the rest can be useful for a certain amount of time if the town knows what they are dealing with.

Loran, your cat is out of the bag. A more information will help others to see any value there is in not running it over with a bandwagon.

I'm not really neutral....i have an additional win condition, not an alternate win condition.

My win condition (paraphrasing here) is for all agents to be dead at the end of the game, and for the town to win.

I have not fired at anyone yet, though I was really tempted to fire at sutherlands and his replacements...

ok, so this means you're a survivor that needs all agents dead to win? or do you just win if all the agents die, regardless of when you die?

Vote count
8 Loran16- Abbeygargoyle, grakthis, J-Effe IV, Dagger, Axelrod, ZDS, Charm_Master, Vampyr
3 Hawkeye7- Cyan, CP, atlseal
1 atlseal- Spoon
1 AbbeyGargoyle - Alx2

Why, exactly, does the Kid need all agents dead? I don't see the relation at all.

Wait a minute, loran has kills?

Quote from Charm_Master3125

ok, so this means you're a survivor that needs all agents dead to win? or do you just win if all the agents die, regardless of when you die?

Vote count
8 Loran16- Abbeygargoyle, grakthis, J-Effe IV, Dagger, Axelrod, ZDS, Charm_Master, Vampyr
3 Hawkeye7- Cyan, CP, atlseal
1 atlseal- Spoon
1 AbbeyGargoyle - Alx2

I don't NEED to survive. i need the town to win, and for all agents to be dead by some method or other.

Quote from Pod

And what's the flavour for that?

I hate the machines and want humanity to be free, and feel that by destroying the agents i can free those plugged in to the matrix.

I wasn't particularly given any flavor for how i'm supposed to nightkill anyone though (i don't think Kid can fight agents one on one).

But i do have 2 nightkills.

Quote from loran16

I'm not really neutral....i have an additional win condition, not an alternate win condition.

My win condition (paraphrasing here) is for all agents to be dead at the end of the game, and for the town to win.

I have not fired at anyone yet, though I was really tempted to fire at sutherlands and his replacements...

Now see, this sounds almost exactly like something I made up before - in DoTA when I said I had the town win condition (kill the Corrupted Oned) and an additional win condition of needing to kill all the Sentinels, where the truth was that I just needed to kill all the Sentinels.

Quote from Pod

And what's your role title?

E.G Cop, tracker, missionary

Missionary? I don't know that one.

If by title you mean the 2nd half of my role name, then it's "Freedom Fighter"

Anything else?

As in... you fight against freedom?

PS: That's a comment meant to show that I'm very, very skeptical of that claim and on the verge of voting loran.

Quote from Spoon

As in... you fight against freedom?

It means (or is meant to mean) that he fights FOR freedom.

It's a term that's gone a bit out of fashion these days. Once upon a time, terrorists who were on the side of the communists were terrorists and terrorists who were anti-communist were freedom fighters (unless you were a communist, then it was the other way around). These days there are no communists and the West has mostly stopped sponsoring terrorists because they saw what happened after they gave money to Osama.

Quote from Spoon

PS: That's a comment meant to show that I'm very, very skeptical of that claim and on the verge of voting loran.

PS: I can't say I blame you. If he'd come straight out and tried to play it like LJustus' role in Sin City it would have been one thing. But he seems to be dropping stuff on us piece by piece and hoping it sticks.

One thing's for sure, though. The only way this works with him as mafia (from my POV, anyway) is if he has a false claim of Kid provided, since the anti-machine motivation works for the role (from what I've read of the Matrix MMO stuff, from which arimnaes' character and I believe fade's claimed character were also taken), it's not an anti-town role by flavour, and given the presence of other Matrix MMO characters it would be a ballsy guess that no-one else is Kid.

Of course, this being a theme game, false claims for the mafia would not exactly be unheard of.

Also- this is another guy out to get the machines, like Cyan and Axelrod. I don't know if this is a good thing or bad thing.

I dunno. Gut says- loran's play is bad. loran's slowrolling of the claim is bad. There can only be so many neutrals with anti-machine agendas and Cyan and Axel already staked that ground. But the warning bells are going off here, this is a stupid claim for a mafia (yes, WIFOM, but still... gotta assume mafia don't have a deathwish) and I want to lynch a mafia, not a neutral. I can see vigging loran, especially if he doesn't come completely clean. But not necessarily lynching him.

I think I need to do that PBPA more than ever to assure myself on whether his play has indeed been that bad.

I love how RafK manages to take Loran's bad claim and use it to throw dirt on Axelrod and myself. Scum attacking other scum and looking scummy themselves in the process is fascinating.

Anyway, I find Loran's claim unlikely, for a variety of reasons already stated. The presentation of it was extremely dodgy, and the claim itself isn't giving me any warm feelings. I'm willing to add my vote to lynch him, whenever.

Feel free to do so, anytime.

Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur

I love how he attacked Cyan for being a potential hitman (see here), and is now claiming the same thing.

Thankyou for linking that, it's very enlightening.

Quote from loran »

Ummmm.....is this so hard to imagine?

Quote from loran"s made up role PM for Cyan »

T800 (Neutral)- You have to kill John Connors, role xxxx, and role yyyy (Where the other 2 roles were also from the movie). Each night you may nightkill.

You're tough to kill, so you will survive the first attempt made on your life (as a skeleton/frame).

You win when those players are eliminated and if you survive until the end of the game.

Anyone want to bet loran might have been paraphrasing his own role PM?

I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea of a role that needs to kill "Agents" where the Cult Leader was an Agent, and was turning other people into Agents. Technically, you only have to kill the Cult Leader, I suppose, and the town has to eliminate the Cult regardless in order to win, so I don't know that it's totally inconsistent, but it seems very odd. Add to that the Mechanic that lets people use the Smith Avatar, and it's even more odd.

So, Loran, in addition to what ZDS asked (do you know how many there are?) I'd ask, if you have any idea about town/scum ratio among Agents?

I don't believe that there are any more neutrals in this game. Between the cult and Axelrod/Cyan (if they are telling the truth), that could be a lot/too many neutrals.

Along the flavor lines, I could see (stretching it a little bit) how the Kid could be mafia. Something along the lines of "everyone sold out when they made a deal with the machines. You can not let this stand etc." The Kid didn't need any sort of redpill to get out of the Matrix, he hated it enough that he self-substantiated by jumping off his school.

We don't have a mafia body yet, so speculating about all this really doesn't accomplish much concrete, but I am not inclined to move my vote off of loran with that claim.

I don't know if anyone already noted this, but:

Quote from atlseal

Well, I come back to see everyone waiting on me again. You see, normally in a situation like this, I'd tell everyone to take a because the results I got last night (yes, I got results) lend better to watching interactions for a while. However, since there's probably a day SK out there, I want to make sure I get this out there before I'm killed off.

Vote: Kraj, I figured I'd investigate a player that nobody could realistically have any tells on. Lo and behold, he's a virus upon this world. Kraj is the cult leader, Agent Smith.

Quote from loran16

EBWDOP, Didnt mean to post that, post wasnt finished.

Anyhow, Vote Atlseal. We got his "investigation" , and its hardly believable. I think lynching him today (especially since he's a claimed 1 shot) is the right play.

atlseal tells us that Kraj is an AGENT, and Loran (who supposedly needs all agents dead, remember?) votes for atlseal. This makes no sense with Loran's claimed role. I think he's BSing us.

Loran, can you please explain why someone who needs all agents dead doesn't jump on the Kraj lynchwagon immediately?

Barring a great explanation, I'd be willing to place a vote.

Quote from Alx2

Loran, can you please explain why someone who needs all agents dead doesn't jump on the Kraj lynchwagon immediately?

And, in fact, tries to organize an opposite wagon... explain.

@Axel, I have no idea how many there are, or the ratio (though im probably guessing there's either more town than scum or all town or neutral, since i need the scum to die to win anyhow)

@Pod, I have a. limited shots, and b. i learned from view. Just cuz i azwolged once doesnt mean i will again.

@Alx, i do need the town to win as well, and i thought atl was lying. If atl was not lying and we lynched him, worst comes to worse i wouldve shot Kraj and it would've been no harm no foul. I've been playing as if i was town, with the plan of eventually vigging any claimed agents as they came along.

If you have limited shots, shouldn't you be happy not to have to waste one of them on Kraj and lynch him immediately?

Were you planning on vigging Arimnaes, considering he was telegraphing being an Agent from his very first post? Before he got day-killed, of course.

Also, wasn't there this whole idea for a vig. to cap fadeblue last night just to be "sure" that the Cult was eliminated?

You're a vig. Fadeblue at least was an Agent. You've got reason to fire at him for completely independant reasons besides just trying to make "sure" the Cult got eliminated.

Were you so sure that Fadeblue was telling the truth about reverting that you decided there was no reason to fire at him?

Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur

I think you are the day-SK. Your targets all make sense, in some way :
-> Arimnaes was an obvious agent. <snip>

You know, while I can't really find fault with this logic, I think it's somewhat cruel to make a game that contains an agent who must post in character, and a daykiller who needs to kill agents. This effectively dooms one player to a quick death from the start, and is just bad game design.

However, this is all beside the point, since I don't actually believe Loran's claim at all.

Quote from Axelrod

Were you planning on vigging Arimnaes, considering he was telegraphing being an Agent from his very first post? Before he got day-killed, of course.

Yes. I was going to kill arim, eventually. Not sure if i was going to kill him n1, but he was going to die. (similarly, i thought sutherlands was an agent d1, and didnt shoot.) With limited shots, there was no harm of seeing if the mafia would kill the post restricted player for me.

@Alx, don't ask me about setup cruelty. And while i have limited shots, i didnt really think about it when i was persuing atl and thinking of firing at kraj. On reflection, you're correct, lynching kraj would probably have been better for me. oops.

No I'm not the daykiller. And i didnt kill fade because i assumed we had another vig, who was goin to shoot at him. I'm not a pure vig, and thought at least one other person would have a nightkill and fire at fade that night.

Yes pod, it is.

That claim is ridiculous for everything talked about in the last 40-50 posts. Unvote, Vote Loran.

I would be willing to hammer unless someone else has a burning issue we must discuss before ending the day.

Quote from loran16

@Alx, i do need the town to win as well, and i thought atl was lying. If atl was not lying and we lynched him, worst comes to worse i wouldve shot Kraj and it would've been no harm no foul. I've been playing as if i was town, with the plan of eventually vigging any claimed agents as they came along.

Classic.

I'm trying to put loran's claim in context of Azrael's games (aka Sin City). Now, what loran's claimed is basically a hitman (a la LJustus in Sin City), but the way he's trying to craft it (the claim, the targets, etc) it's almost as if he's trying to say he's a townie. This seems inconsistent. Axel brought up the good point that the cult leader was an agent... coupled with the fact that we've already seen two agents, the fact that this role was already in Sin City (with much less townie flavor), and the fact that loran's been acting rather sketchily, I think we could do worse than deal with him.

Quote from Alx2

Classic.

That should say "vanilla town"

Quote from Alx2

I would be willing to hammer unless someone else has a burning issue we must discuss before ending the day.

Ending the day will garner no objection from me.

Loran's claim seems like so much nonsense, and his behavior here reminds me of Trek Mafia. Unvote, Vote Loran

Apparently, a lot of things happened while I was away...

I am for a loran's lynch as well. The way he claimed and his claim itself is dubious at best. As was said, there were also the inconsistencies on his claim as an agent-hunter with his play so far.

I am fine with ending the day with it.

The day ended, FYI. Cyan's vote was the 10th, with 19 alive. I suggest no one place an 11th vote at the moment. In case there's some vote-restriction anomaly and 10 votes aren't enough to lynch, we need to be aware of it for better setup analysis tomorrow. If Azrael checks in and doesn't lynch Loran, THEN we'll add more votes.

Quote from Cyan

Loran's claim seems like so much nonsense, and his behavior here reminds me of Trek Mafia. Unvote, Vote Loran

Trek mafia? You mean where i got targetted by like 3 different investigators in the same night, including the only one who could pierce my immunity?

Uh, no.

I am The Kid btw.