If 'no one doubts' that I think LJustus is scum, why are we having this conversation? I mistyped what I was trying to say.
Let's try this again.. if no one was disagreeing with you, then who were you correcting when you "mistyped?" If what you meant to say was that you think LJ is scum, then why did you say it in the first place? Everyone already know that.
Who were you talking to?
Quote from Cyan »
And fine, here is my claim, just so people will leave me alone, and realize that I have a pro-town agenda.
I am T-800, the Model 101 Terminator. I am a Town Bodyguard, for John Connor, who was captured by the machines and inserted in the Matrix as the original 'One'. I do not have a physical body, I am only an essence that exists to protect Connor.
There are a couple of other aspects to my role, but it is in the best interest of the town that they go unstated, and I really don't see why it would be necessary for me to state them anyway.
Can we please look at any number of the opportunistic scum(LJustus, Xyre, etc) on my wagon now? Thanks.
Or maybe, you're the T-800 from the first movie and you're here to kill John Connor. Maybe you're the SK?
A bodyguard for a SINGLE role that we have been given no implication is important to the town, especially in light of how scummy you've been, does nothing for me.
Especially, since if JOhn Conner was the original "one" then he'd be LONG dead by this point in the plot line.
And why would the machines "capture" a t-800 from the future and insert him into the matrix? The machines could write a much better program than the crappy T-800. The T-800 would get it's ass kicked by Seraph or Neo or pretty much any of the hardcore badasses in the matrix.
This has a billion flavor holes in it, when combined with your scummy behavior all over the place, it does nothing for me.
And if you die, it's just as good as lynching Cyan, because we still get a confirmed townie out of it.
Considering that there are 2 (actually more) Terminators running around in that franchise, I'm curious why you would think that claim clears you 100%?
If you were assigned to "protect" this role, wouldn't it make a certain amount of sense for a counter-role to be in the game that wants to "terminate" him? And then, couldn't you just as easily be that counter role?
Or there's no counter role, just you, out to kill him? I'm just speculating, but you were the one who seemed to think the claim was 100% solid.
I don't know, it still doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a scum gambit either. Unless John Conner is a complete fabrication of yours.
Also: Unvote: LJustus. Lynching him may not be the thing to do after all today.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Or maybe, you're the T-800 from the first movie and you're here to kill John Connor. Maybe you're the SK?
There was no John Connor in the first movie. Now, I'm 99% sure Cyan is telling the truth about knowing there is a John Connor in the game. Later, if/when we find out there isn't one, Cyan is an auto-lynch. The only way he can be scum is if:
a. He's really a T-1000, or
b. He made up the whole T-800/JC relationship (in which case he'll be found out later.
Learn to read. I said that Connor was captured by the machines and inserted into the matrix as the original One. I was created by Zionist hackers to protect him.
And what does the T-800 getting it's ass kicked by Neo/Seraph/a lollypop kid have to do with anything, when the role is 'town bodyguard' and those would also be town roles. I'm fairly confident that roles on the same side don't fight each other.
There was no John Connor in the first movie. Now, I'm 99% sure Cyan is telling the truth about knowing there is a John Connor in the game. Later, if/when we find out there isn't one, Cyan is an auto-lynch. The only way he can be scum is if:
a. He's really a T-1000, or
b. He made up the whole T-800/JC relationship (in which case he'll be found out later.
I am leaning along these lines myself for the moment.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
That's a good point by Alx. The original Terminator existed for the purpose of killing Sarah Connor. The Terminator in the movies, in relationship to John Connor, has always been there to protect him. So fat lot of good that argument does you.
I highly, highly doubt that the T1000 or TX are in the game, because of the finer points of the way my role works. Which again, I am not going to disclose. You're better off trying to kill me than the mafia knowing exactly how to exploit my role.
Unvote Cyan for now. I've reached the conclusion that the only way for him to be scum is a Hitman-like T-1000 role (whose goal is to kill a specific player). He's almost certainly not a mafia member.
For the record, I am from the Terminator series, as well- so there's at least some validity to Cyan's flavor. I can't speak to alignment, and having never seen these movies (blasphemy, I know, I had overprotective parents) it's probably not my domain to speculate beyond that.
Or maybe, you're the T-800 from the first movie and you're here to kill John Connor. Maybe you're the SK?
I thought of something similar to those two scenarios as well while I was reading this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-800. Originally T-800 was the villian of the franchise and only later became good.
A bodyguard for a SINGLE role that we have been given no implication is important to the town, especially in light of how scummy you've been, does nothing for me.
Especially, since if JOhn Conner was the original "one" then he'd be LONG dead by this point in the plot line.
And why would the machines "capture" a t-800 from the future and insert him into the matrix? The machines could write a much better program than the crappy T-800. The T-800 would get it's ass kicked by Seraph or Neo or pretty much any of the hardcore badasses in the matrix.
This has a billion flavor holes in it, when combined with your scummy behavior all over the place, it does nothing for me.
And if you die, it's just as good as lynching Cyan, because we still get a confirmed townie out of it.
I'm ready for you to die now.
First off, we don't know a lot about former "Ones" in the Matrix, The Architect states that there were 5 before Neo. I don't believe that all 5 of Neo's predecessors were named in the storyline, so I wouldn't a priori doubt that Az made other "Ones" appear in this game on various sides of the conflict.
Secondly, I wouldn't count a T-800 out in any fight, so bodyguard makes some sense (although I wouldn't be surprised if it was a "Lurch" role like Axel had in Elegant). I mean, Arnold kicked the crap out of T-1000 in T2 and T-X in T3 (and a lot hotter than him too), both of which were supposedly "superior".
If he's not town he wouldn't have an investigation result, obviously..so how does that make sense? And, in my mind(again), 'letting him do his thing' involves duping the town into not actually lynching him. So no, I don't think I'll just let that one go.
I'm flatly not revealing anything else about my role, ZDS, no matter how much you(or anyone) subtlely try to dig for information.
And, in my mind(again), 'letting him do his thing' involves duping the town into not actually lynching him.
This argument makes absolutely no sense. Isn't the whole point of the game to lynch the scum? Do you think there's really a scum role that's so powerful as to be lynch-proof or something? Seriously, I can't get lynched if I try? That's kinda silly. I'm too suspicious to lynch. Really?
No, you're so suspicious that we should definetely lynch you, instead of this apparent movement to just let you live awhile and maybe lynch you sometime later. It is hugely an erronous assumption to think that you can ever get a 'free lynch' like you can on Day 1. You seem to be thinking that I don't think we should try to lynch you. This could not be more than opposite of the truth.
Sure thing. In fact, Unvote. I'll place the lynch vote, in case there are any other shenanigans going on with your role and you gain something by being the lynch vote on your own lynch.
You really are an un-trusting bastard, aren't you? Perhaps you get some bonus as being a hammer vote - since you are a machine desinged for killing. Hmmm?
There was no John Connor in the first movie. Now, I'm 99% sure Cyan is telling the truth about knowing there is a John Connor in the game. Later, if/when we find out there isn't one, Cyan is an auto-lynch. The only way he can be scum is if:
a. He's really a T-1000, or
b. He made up the whole T-800/JC relationship (in which case he'll be found out later.
Well, that's mostly true. Sarah Conner got pregnant in the first movie. Killing John Conner was still the point.
So, let me tell you a story about a game I designed on MT. There was a role for a character who, in the books, died to save one of the main characters.
But in the game, this "bodyguard" type character was scum.
But the scum took a gambit and said "I am a bodyguard for character X."
And character X ended up being in the game. And so no one doubted the scum and he survived till the end when they won.
It's a classic scum move.
In fact, I did something similar in Robinson Crusoe mafia on MT. I was Robinson Crusoe himself (mafia don), and I was laying the groundwork to claim my relationship with another character I suspected was in the game. He wasn't, so it would have later bit me in the ass, but it was a reasonable gambit.
Quote from Abbey »
First off, we don't know a lot about former "Ones" in the Matrix, The Architect states that there were 5 before Neo. I don't believe that all 5 of Neo's predecessors were named in the storyline, so I wouldn't a priori doubt that Az made other "Ones" appear in this game on various sides of the conflict.
But the "one" would be dead! He has a pysical body with a limited lifespan.
It makes no sense.
Quote from Abbey »
Secondly, I wouldn't count a T-800 out in any fight, so bodyguard makes some sense (although I wouldn't be surprised if it was a "Lurch" role like Axel had in Elegant). I mean, Arnold kicked the crap out of T-1000 in T2 and T-X in T3 (and a lot hotter than him too), both of which were supposedly "superior".
Think back to the kinds of things Agents and redpills did in the movies. They could rip concrete apart with their fists. They could move faster than bullets.
The T-X and T-1000 woudl both get wailed on by a run of the mill agent!
The computer programs in the matrix are waaaay superior to the physical aspects of the terminators. So unless the machines did an upgrade... which woudl still not make sense. Why not just write a new program?
No... not buying it.
And if you are of the mindset that you want to lynch someone to verify someone else, lynching Cyan and having him turn up town verifies Conner. And I think there is a MUCH higher chance of Cyan being scum than LJustus.
I do - whether the investigationis used on Cyan or Grakthis, it will greatly benefit the town.
Very well then.
Vote: LJustus
I am in favor of lynching LJ today to investigate Cyan.
If LJ is scum, no problem.
If LJ is town and Cyan comes up town, we'll have two confirmed roles.
If LJ is town and Cyan comes up scum, we can have atlseal vigs him.
Also, for the record, I don't understand why Cyan must claim in the first place. If we execute the lynch LJ plan and he is town, then we can just vig the scum Cyan or just leave the town Cyan alone without revealing a claim.
Conner doesn't need verified, how could John Connor conceivably be scum?
And also, he never had a physical body in the Matrix in the first place, no one does, remember? His essence has just always lived on.
Something else, I really don't remotely see the logic in claiming knowledge of a role that doesn't actually exist. What would be the point of a gambit that is doomed to fail?
And what happened to your 5 seconds ago theory that maybe I'm really the T1000, looking to kill Connor(nevermind the already mentioned flavor discrepancies here).
DYH has already confirmed that he is a Terminator role as well, meaning that there is no way at all that I'm just making this up as I go along, so this latest theory of yours is out.
Also, for the record, I don't understand why Cyan must claim in the first place. If we execute the lynch LJ plan and he is town, then we can just vig the scum Cyan or just leave the town Cyan alone without revealing a claim.
The point was that Cyan said his claim was 100% townie. If that was true (and, in fact, it's not, though it's not bad) then lynching LJustus to get an inspection on Cyan would be a complete waste. I'd much, much rather get an inspection on someone we have less info on.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@LJustus: The notion that I could gain powers by being the lynch vote doesn't track, since I'm the leading target to get investigated when you get lynched, which will verify everything that I have said thus far, if you're actually telling the truth. I really see how you would forget that part, since that was the whole reason you started all of this in the first place.
@Grakthis: I love how something that is a ridiculously huge gambit that you have one example of is a 'classic scum move'. You are seriously grasping at straws now. That's not even a good play, it's just lazy town play that overlooked the fact that, somehow, they both stayed alive the entire game, and resulted in a scum being abnormally lucky.
@Axelrod: My claim is 100% town, in my mind. There is no chance whatsoever that the T1000 is in the game. I know this because Azrael originally sent me the wrong role PM and said I was the T1000. I had to PM him and ask him to clarify this, pointing out that the T1000 is the bad guy, at which point he corrected it to state that I am actually the T800. This is also why I disbelieve that the TX is in the game..the Terminator from T3 is a T850. There is only one instance of the 'T800 Model 101' in all of the Terminator mythos, and it is the one that is in T2. I guess it's possible that the TX exists as a counter to my role, but considering how my role works, I find this fairly unlikely.
EBWODP: The obvious conclusion from that last paragraph being that Azrael couldn't have sent me the wrong role as the T1000 and sent someone else the opposite of my role..also as the T1000.
But the "one" would be dead! He has a pysical body with a limited lifespan.
It makes no sense.
Partially Sarnath'd by DYH: their essences would live on, or since they contain code themselves, become totally code or exiles or some weird middling form?
Think back to the kinds of things Agents and redpills did in the movies. They could rip concrete apart with their fists. They could move faster than bullets.
The T-X and T-1000 woudl both get wailed on by a run of the mill agent!
The computer programs in the matrix are waaaay superior to the physical aspects of the terminators. So unless the machines did an upgrade... which woudl still not make sense. Why not just write a new program?
No... not buying it.
Arguing against and prodividing sources:
Quote from Wikipedia »
While it is just as able to do this with sheer force of strength, like the original "Terminator", the T-1000 is also better able to accomplish certain goals by deception -- using, for example, the guise of a police officer or disguising itself as a family member of its victim in order to lure, kill, or obtain information from that person. When physically damaged, the T-1000 is capable of reforming itself in seconds. In the film, the T-1000 is only susceptible to bullets and other projectiles insofar as it must slow down very briefly to absorb the shock of impact. In an attempt to destroy the T-1000, the protagonists freeze it with liquid nitrogen until it becomes brittle and shatters. However, when the air around it is warmed again, the T-1000 reconstitutes itself from countless shattered pieces, and it resumes its mission to assassinate. The protagonists, and the audience as well, are left at this point in the film to wonder how it is possible to kill the seemingly indestructible machine.
Sounds like T-1000 could do pretty well against an agent or redpill to me.
Quote from wikipedia »
This unique build makes the T-X nearly invulnerable on the battlefield, absorbing gunshots, explosions, and other external attacks as if they were nothing. The only verified way the endoskeleton can be destroyed is via a nuclear explosion.
The T-X's strength is also greater than any of the Terminator series that came before. It was able to make older, much heavier models fly across the room with little effort. This strength is required, for the T-X is designed to terminate other Terminators.
Besides incredible strength and speed, it also had various kinds of innate ranged weapons and tools while other Terminators were limited to their physical strength, what was available in their environment, or, in the T-1000's case, what could be forged directly out of liquid metal, since only the Terminator itself could be send back through time, without any external equipment from its native time zone
Just use wikipedia for sourcing (entries T-1000 and T-X)
Sounds like either one of these could match up against Matrix characters, without a problem. And remember, in T3, T-X took T-800 through and entire city block's worth of buildings and he came out only slightly scratched.
Grak, you are sounding a lot like you did in Gangsta with the flavor arguments. Remember where that got you?
Personally, I think it makes more sense to lynch Cyan here. It would be unfortunate to use up an investigation on Cyan at this point, now (not to say that LJ couldn't investigate someone else, even if we did lynch someone besides Cyan), when he's started looking a lot worse. I think the most convincing argument is that if Cyan really is scum, he'd rather be lynched after surviving for a day and get a power role of sorts killed than be lynched today. The possibility of a godfather is not insignificant, either. Granted, that still leaves the questioon of why he reacted to LJ with so much suspicion, when he could have just eagerly cooperated and gotten the desired result, but I can't think of any scenario that explains that, so I have to leave it behind.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Conner doesn't need verified, how could John Connor conceivably be scum?
How could the Chesire cat conceivably be scum? How could the random drug addicts from the first matrix movie conceivably be scum?
Quote from Cyan »
And also, he never had a physical body in the Matrix in the first place, no one does, remember? His essence has just always lived on.
If your body dies in the real world, your body dies int he matrix. If he aged and got old in the real world, he would die.
So instead it would have to be like a program that is created to immitate john conner.
Quote from Cyan »
Something else, I really don't remotely see the logic in claiming knowledge of a role that doesn't actually exist. What would be the point of a gambit that is doomed to fail?
Did you miss my example?
Quote from Cyan »
And what happened to your 5 seconds ago theory that maybe I'm really the T1000, looking to kill Connor(nevermind the already mentioned flavor discrepancies here).
Still possible.
Quote from Cyan »
DYH has already confirmed that he is a Terminator role as well, meaning that there is no way at all that I'm just making this up as I go along, so this latest theory of yours is out.
Agreed. It's far more likely that you are claiming something very CLOSE to your real role and only lying about alignment or ability and possibly model number.
Quote from Cyan »
@Grakthis: I love how something that is a ridiculously huge gambit that you have one example of is a 'classic scum move'. You are seriously grasping at straws now. That's not even a good play, it's just lazy town play that overlooked the fact that, somehow, they both stayed alive the entire game, and resulted in a scum being abnormally lucky.
Man... you crack me up.
It's such a tiny tiny gambit. It's not like the town is gonna go "ok, everyone claim and if no one is John Conner, then we lynch him." That would be stupid.
So, it's not a major gambit. It's a really small gambit, because the alternative is that we lynch you RIGHT NOW.
And what you're saying is, if you and john conner are both still alive in a few days, we should automatically lynch you? Just like that?
Quote from Cyan »
My claim is 100% town, in my mind. There is no chance whatsoever that the T1000 is in the game. I know this because Azrael originally sent me the wrong role PM and said I was the T1000. I had to PM him and ask him to clarify this, pointing out that the T1000 is the bad guy, at which point he corrected it to state that I am actually the T800. This is also why I disbelieve that the TX is in the game..the Terminator from T3 is a T850. There is only one instance of the 'T800 Model 101' in all of the Terminator mythos, and it is the one that is in T2. I guess it's possible that the TX exists as a counter to my role, but considering how my role works, I find this fairly unlikely.
Discussing a mod screw up and using it of proof of anything makes me want to vomit. Terrible gamesmanship even if you are telling the truth. And if you're lying, you should be modkilled for it. Bad form in every way.
Quote from Abbey »
Sounds like either one of these could match up against Matrix characters, without a problem. And remember, in T3, T-X took T-800 through and entire city block's worth of buildings and he came out only slightly scratched.
Grak, you are sounding a lot like you did in Gangsta with the flavor arguments. Remember where that got you?
Yeah, it got me another win marked down on JSextons sheet >:3
And I am arguing the OPPOSITE position this time! He's acted scummy as all hell, and I am not letting his weak roleclaim save him!
Also, your flavor argument is demonstrably false.
1) T-800 killed by sarah conner and whats his face.
2) t-1000 killed by t-800 and sarah conner.
3) T-whatever killed by t-800
So... in conclusion, they are all weaker than a bunch of normal average humans with shotguns and grenades.
So explain to me how an agent, who moves faster than them, cannot die, is strong enough to smash stone and pretty much has any weapon he wants at his disposal, cannot take them out?
Or Morpheaus who used a SWORD to cut through a MOVING CAR in the 2nd film. And remember in the mirovingians house when dudes are just destorying stone columns with swords and maces and such?
Hell, and this isn't even including the legacy creatures like the two ghosty dudes who could warp through things or the werewolves and ****.
And I am arguing the OPPOSITE position this time! He's acted scummy as all hell, and I am not letting his weak roleclaim save him!
Also, your flavor argument is demonstrably false.
1) T-800 killed by sarah conner and whats his face.
2) t-1000 killed by t-800 and sarah conner.
3) T-whatever killed by t-800
So... in conclusion, they are all weaker than a bunch of normal average humans with shotguns and grenades.
First of all, this is a Superman vs. Batman argument. You can't seriously argue that Batman is stronger just because if they got in a fight, Batman would bring Kryptonite. Objectively, Superman is far stronger, just like objectively, T-X is highly capable of competing on an even keel with an agent. The fact that the plots of the movies made certain unusual things happen that shouldn't normally (using the term normal in the loosest way possible) happen doesn't mean anything. And in any case, this argument is completely irrelevant to the point at hand.
I'm pretty sure that Abbey was saying that your argument (that Terminator characters are unlikely to be in the game because they're too weak to compete) is based on false premises, because flavor arguments about who is stronger are irrelevant. He's right.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
First of all, this is a Superman vs. Batman argument. You can't seriously argue that Batman is stronger just because if they got in a fight, Batman would bring Kryptonite. Objectively, Superman is far stronger, just like objectively, T-X is highly capable of competing on an even keel with an agent. The fact that the plots of the movies made certain unusual things happen that shouldn't normally (using the term normal in the loosest way possible) happen doesn't mean anything. And in any case, this argument is completely irrelevant to the point at hand.
I'm pretty sure that Abbey was saying that your argument (that Terminator characters are unlikely to be in the game because they're too weak to compete) is based on false premises, because flavor arguments about who is stronger are irrelevant. He's right.
1. Loran16 - could easily be scum 2. Spoon - I've thought most of what he's had to say sounded reasonable 3. Fadeblue - could be scum. Definitely in the background 4. DYH - could be scum. This whole LJustus/Cyan thing has increased the odds of this in my mind. But still unknown. 5. Rafaelk - Nothing bad standing out. More reasonable than usual. This probably means he's scum 6. Axelrod - I am me. 7. J-Effe IV (Replacing Wizzpig) - Pretty much unknown 8. Hawkeye7 - always a risk because he always slides by as scum. That said, nothing scummy standing out yet. His early role-playing I see as more townish than not. 9. Athos - Chronic Lurker. This is not really a tell for him, it's just extremely annoying. 10. LJustus - Saffi. Death Investigator type. Hard to see how gambiting to get yourself lynched is scummy, baring some wacky recruitment-type role. 11. Grakthis - early feeling was townish. The unrelenting all out attack against Cyan is souring him a bit in my eyes though. Inculding arguing about if an Agent could beat up a Terminator or not. 12. Alx2 - townish 13. Abbeygargoyle - kind of unknown. Why are you arguing about whether a Terminator could beat up an agent or not? Who the heck cares? 14. Cyan - T-800. Bodyguard. Now leaning more townish. Either that or him and John Connor are both scum roles, which would seem odd. 15. Xyre - still scummy looking 16. ZDS - man, he still seems scummy, but Mason claim FTW. 17. Pod - kind of unknown. Laid back for Pod? Could be scum. 18. Vampyr - still somewhat scummish. I've liked some of his recent posts a bit better. 19. Atlseal - Cheshire Cat. JoaT. Dubious play before claim. Now in "put up or shut up" mode. 20. Carrion Pigeons - triple votes. Other than the ability, I've seen nothing that would give me great confidence. 21. Hvir - scummy and lurking. 22. Dagger - who? Could be scum. 23. Sutherlands - vote-count man. This may be another "put up or shut up" situation. I haven't liked a lot of his posts, and the ultimate explanation for the vote-counts isn't satisfying, I'll probably be voting him.
Vote: Hvirfinder as my best pick for scum at the present time.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Bodyguard is an easy role to fake claim.
Explain it to me then, why don't you.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
If LJ is town and Cyan comes up town, we'll have two confirmed roles.
No, we'll have one confirmed (maybe) role and one dead townie. Brilliant.
Anyway, I'm not comfortable enough with Cyan's claim to let him off the hook. All things considered, unless there's something he's not telling us, his death probably wouldn't harm the town if in fact he's telling the truth. For Day 1 lynches, that's pretty good.
1. Loran16 - could easily be scum 2. Spoon - I've thought most of what he's had to say sounded reasonable 3. Fadeblue - could be scum. Definitely in the background 4. DYH - could be scum. This whole LJustus/Cyan thing has increased the odds of this in my mind. But still unknown. 5. Rafaelk - Nothing bad standing out. More reasonable than usual. This probably means he's scum 6. Axelrod - I am me. 7. J-Effe IV (Replacing Wizzpig) - Pretty much unknown 8. Hawkeye7 - always a risk because he always slides by as scum. That said, nothing scummy standing out yet. His early role-playing I see as more townish than not. 9. Athos - Chronic Lurker. This is not really a tell for him, it's just extremely annoying. 10. LJustus - Saffi. Death Investigator type. Hard to see how gambiting to get yourself lynched is scummy, baring some wacky recruitment-type role. 11. Grakthis - early feeling was townish. The unrelenting all out attack against Cyan is souring him a bit in my eyes though. Inculding arguing about if an Agent could beat up a Terminator or not. 12. Alx2 - townish 13. Abbeygargoyle - kind of unknown. Why are you arguing about whether a Terminator could beat up an agent or not? Who the heck cares? 14. Cyan - T-800. Bodyguard. Now leaning more townish. Either that or him and John Connor are both scum roles, which would seem odd. 15. Xyre - still scummy looking 16. ZDS - man, he still seems scummy, but Mason claim FTW. 17. Pod - kind of unknown. Laid back for Pod? Could be scum. 18. Vampyr - still somewhat scummish. I've liked some of his recent posts a bit better. 19. Atlseal - Cheshire Cat. JoaT. Dubious play before claim. Now in "put up or shut up" mode. 20. Carrion Pigeons - triple votes. Other than the ability, I've seen nothing that would give me great confidence. 21. Hvir - scummy and lurking. 22. Dagger - who? Could be scum. 23. Sutherlands - vote-count man. This may be another "put up or shut up" situation. I haven't liked a lot of his posts, and the ultimate explanation for the vote-counts isn't satisfying, I'll probably be voting him.
Vote: Hvirfinder as my best pick for scum at the present time.
loran - Has behaved scummily in general. Without info on the alignments of people he's interacted with, it's hard to say whether it's just playstyle or not, but I'm willing to let him slide for now because 1) he isn't the scummiest player so far, and 2) he's either going to start looking really bad or quite a bit better once people start dying.
Spoon - other than being the gimmick account, has he said/done anything of note? Middle of the road, likely to stay there for a while yet.
fadeblue - he actually does do this, not contributing much in the early game. He's said before that his best time for contribution is later in the game, and that he tends to not be very useful early on. His comments on Suth not being the scummiest player without comments on who is, on the other hand, seem unusual, both because he isn't one for latching on to someone this early, nor is he one for letting them slide if he does latch on to them. Not a good target for now, but ought to be giving more input than he is, or else offering less advice.
DYH - I haven't disagreed with anything he's said that I recall. Seems pretty townie.
RafaelK - has spent some effort examining non-tells from people he disagrees with, as though it were evidence of something. Has made an effort to start arguments with multiple people so that he can call them scummy. Not liking his attitude nor the direction his focus has been on.
Axelrod - much the same as fade, but without the lack of opinions.
J-Effe IV - garnering suspicion for being quiet as Wizzpig, his successor to the role has not changed that. Either he'll keep garnering suspicion and end up getting lynched once he comments on something, or else he'll make a good point/clear himself somehow and catch everyone by surprise. Either way, not a priority now.
Hawkeye7 - RPing is basically the same as lurking until something comes along to decode the wierd posting style. Precedent says this happens fairly rarely, which suggests that he is likely town, albeit kind of useless. Nothing to really say here besides that it would nice to get more input.
Athos - our resident chamber. Not a priority.
LJustus - I'm all for saving his role for a later date. If there's any doubt who to lynch after Day 3, he makes an awesome lynch; it may even break the game open. Right now, his ability is likely just a shot in the dark. I don't him plausibly lying, not do I see it as a priority to figure out right now, given that he will almost certainly be lynched before we reach the endgame.
Grakthis - honestly, no read at all here. Which, given his acclaimed status, makes me think scum. Not that that is real evidence of any kind.
Alx2 - similar to Axelrod. Nothing of any great note here, IMO.
AbbeyGargoyle - seems to just want to argue. I haven't gone back to look, but I don't think he's introduced any ideas of his own, while at the same time, he shoots down all the ideas from others that seem easy to shoot down. I generally think of that as scummy behavior; I know I tend to do it regardless of my alignment, but other people are generally more interested in putting forth ideas as town than otherwise. This is just a general impression, though.
Cyan - I'm not getting more of a scum read than normal, but that means little coming from Cyan. His claim seems weak to me, and his lack of comprehension about why it is weak also seems a little on the forced side. The amount of suspicion he garnered before the claim seems unwarranted, though, which makes me lean the other way. It would be nice if we could narrow down the reasons for the wagon, because some of them suck; once we only had people supporting the genuine reasons for voting him, it would be easier to see if this were a serious lynchwagon.
Xyre - he's only recently topped atl in scumminess, IMO. Mostly because atl hasn't been posting much lately, I'll grant, but I would be utterly unsurprised to see Xyre turn up scum, and if the Cyan wagon dies then this is the only reasonable place to go, if you ask me.
ZDS - is a mason, I don't see him lying.
Pod - Who? Is he in this game?
Vampyr - I don't think I see a scum here, and I'm pretty sure I didn't before, either. Vampyr's responses to Axelrod seemed honest, and the way he dealt with it struck me as not being something a scum would do.
atl - great vig target.
carrion pigeons - at your service.
Hvir - at least he isn't lurking as much as he did in SC Mafia :cool:. 'Course, he was town, then, wasn't he? I think the last time I played a game with him was Battlestar Galactica Mafia, or whatever it was called, forever ago. Can't say I have any kind of read here, but I suspect he's worthy of some pressure at some point.
Dagger - obviously a power role.
Sutherlands - Getting a townie vibe here, I think. I doubt he could fool himself into thinking that the vote counts do anything more than make people look at him harder, and I disagree that his posts have reflected more scumminess than your average player. If he's faking the restriction, then he's got cajones and I think he deserves a chance to screw up before we go anywhere with it. If he isn't, then Az is being awfully forgiving, but then, having modded a few roles with serious posting restrictions before, I can see him doing that, as long as the spirit of the role is kept.
Anyway, so most of the time, I agree with Axel, but I'd like to continue the Cyan wagon for a bit until we get a stronger grasp of who's on it for the right reasons and who may not be. From there, I'd be happy to either lynch Cyan or focus on Xyre, depending on what we see.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Axelrod is right about my lack of getting the rest of what I wanted to get done ... done. However, I've felt recent events have provided a much greater source for discussion than what I was looking at.
Personally, I feel quite comfortable with Cyan's claim and I feel we need to take his word on it for now. It seems to fit quite well flavor-wise and the fact that DYH is also from the same verse makes it seem to stick better. Grak's continued attack on him is what I'm finding really suspicious. Especially the basis on complete flavor comparison between Terminator and the Matrix (uterly pointless). In fact, at first I thought it was a joke, but now it's apparent that it's a little more serious than that.
I think the right play has gone from lynching LJustus and having him investigate Cyan to having him investigate Grak. My vote's going to stay where it is. However, FOS: Grak
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
Axelrod is right about my lack of getting the rest of what I wanted to get done ... done. However, I've felt recent events have provided a much greater source for discussion than what I was looking at.
Personally, I feel quite comfortable with Cyan's claim and I feel we need to take his word on it for now. It seems to fit quite well flavor-wise and the fact that DYH is also from the same verse makes it seem to stick better. Grak's continued attack on him is what I'm finding really suspicious. Especially the basis on complete flavor comparison between Terminator and the Matrix (uterly pointless). In fact, at first I thought it was a joke, but now it's apparent that it's a little more serious than that.
I think the right play has gone from lynching LJustus and having him investigate Cyan to having him investigate Grak. My vote's going to stay where it is. However, FOS: Grak
Atl, if you're so interested in Grak, why don't YOU investigate him?
Personally, i think if we lynch LJ, we should have him investigate atlseal. If he's town, then we solve the question he poses early. If he's scum, well, we can take what he says with a grain of salt.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
8. Hawkeye7 - always a risk because he always slides by as scum. That said, nothing scummy standing out yet. His early role-playing I see as more townish than not.
Yeah, well, I can understand, I'm a pretty dangerous character.
Hawkeye7 - RPing is basically the same as lurking until something comes along to decode the wierd posting style. Precedent says this happens fairly rarely, which suggests that he is likely town, albeit kind of useless. Nothing to really say here besides that it would nice to get more input.
That’s an interesting perspective sitting up on top of that fence post most of the game has given you CP. That’s like reading a phrase like “the rolling stone catches the worm”. It kinda sounds good but if you look at it you realize what you just read was, at best, nonsense. At worst, it was deliberately misleading.
ISHMEOU
Okay: 14. Cyan - T-800. Bodyguard. Now leaning more townish. Either that or him and John Connor are both scum roles, which would seem odd.
Or he is making up the claim entirely.
Or he is making up John Conner being in the game.
Or he is an SK and needs to find and kill John Conner.
This is odd and not at all like you Axe. There are several other possibilities and even if you think them of no consequence I would have bet that you would have at least mentioned them or that they exist but that you think they are not useful.
You did not do that, You omitted them.
Why is that?
Here is a readers digest version of my thinking on Cyan and Ljustus.
If I have left out an option or two it is because I forgot or did not think of it or thought of it but did not find it useful for the town.
Please point them out if you feel like it.
Looking at his posts without filtering them with the knowledge that Cyan made them, I find him suspicious.
Looking at the way he said he would address the case against him http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2088489&postcount=574
and then refused to, after repeated requests for him to follow through on his promise to address them, I find him suspicious.
He could have easily diffused the scrutiny of him by addressing the case made against him, even if he address only most of it, but he did not. Why is that? He either did not to generate the situation that we have, or he felt that he could not without being caught in a lie, or he thought the heat would die down. This last one is wishful thinking, imo, considering the reaction he gets in most games. Also after it became apparent that the suspicion was not dying down what did he do? He out and out refused to address the case, then he role claimed a little before he really needed to, imo, especially when all he would have had to do was address the case, if he was town. The role claim he came up with can’t be proved without someone using an ability or him being lynched. If he is scum and has been corned then he has just maximized the information the mafia will gain by losing him to a lynch or vig kill.
If we lynch Cyan and he is lying we nail a scum. We also do not know for sure if John Conner is in the game or if he is in the game, if he is a townie or not.
If we lynch Cyan and he is telling the truth we lose a town body guard and gain a confirmed role in John Conner.
In my opinion this is a much preferable scenario then lynching Ljustus and investigating someone. LJ’s second ability will kick in if he is nk’d and at worst we will confirm the John Conner role.
My vote is staying on Cyan.
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Atl, if you're so interested in Grak, why don't YOU investigate him?
Because of the high probably that I'll be blocked tonight and LJustus's ability, from what I gather, will give us the result without the chance of being blocked by anyone. I'll take a guarenteed investigation any day.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
Personally, i think if we lynch LJ, we should have him investigate atlseal. If he's town, then we solve the question he poses early. If he's scum, well, we can take what he says with a grain of salt.
I'd rather just lynch atlseal tomorrow after getting his investigation no matter what happens. The only reason I haven't advocated lynching him today is that I figure it's worth waiting and getting his result just in case he isn't scum. LJ's investigation can better be used elsewhere.
Hawkeye, Axelrod didn't include the possibility that I'm making it all up because DYH has stated that he is also from the Terminator mythos, making that possibility..not possible.
I don't know why I ever said I would answer Grak's PBPA. It was ridiculously biased to begin with, which soured me to it. I gave in to pressure somewhat in agreeing to acknowledge it, but I never felt that the timing was appropriate. Now, between how he acted towards Ljustus, his recent 'response' to atlseal, and how he's acted since my claim, I'm fairly convinced that Grak is scum, and am even less inclined to answer him. Oh well.
@Cyan: Most PBPAs are biased. That doesn't mean you shouldn't explain how. Your wagon got started based on people believing that PBPA. I'd think you'd have an interest in shooting it down.
And you still don't get me unvoting you. If it possible to keep it, we're going to be far better with an investigation still available later when we really need it (as I think there is no way that LJustus' ability could be countered) ; you're still the best play for today. As for atlseal, even if he does bring an investigation, that does not clear him at all. It is possible (and likely) that another scum character can investigate and/or roleblock. We'll learn a lot more about that tomorrow, but I would not be surprised if he comes with an investigation on the person which gets NK'd.
My wagon got started with a bunch of opportunistic scum latching onto an overly aggressive trumped up 'case' by Grakthis.
And what would be the point of answering it now anyway? I've already claimed, nothing is going to supercede that.
1. If it was started by "a bunch of opportunistic scum latching onto an overly aggressive trumped up 'case' by Grakthis", you could've shown this before you claimed by proving the case to be bull.
2. You're right that answering it now won't have nearly as much of a point as it would've before, but you still should've.
Hawkeye, Axelrod didn't include the possibility that I'm making it all up because DYH has stated that he is also from the Terminator mythos, making that possibility..not possible.
Improbable, maybe highly improbable but not, not possible.
I don't know why I ever said I would answer Grak's PBPA. It was ridiculously biased to begin with, which soured me to it. I gave in to pressure somewhat in agreeing to acknowledge it, but I never felt that the timing was appropriate. Now, between how he acted towards Ljustus, his recent 'response' to atlseal, and how he's acted since my claim, I'm fairly convinced that Grak is scum, and am even less inclined to answer him. Oh well.
You may find it biased, but there is no denying that in the minds of may other players in the game, the case has many valid points. Points that are just as valid now as they were when the case was made. Had you addressed the case when it was made it is very likely that you would not have had to role claim or be in the position your are in now.
As I said before, this fact is obvious to the point of making it suspicous that you ignored it. Things progressed in a very predictable manner and out comes your claim. Not just a name claim but a full role claim. No one really pressured you to reveal all the information that you did and it's coming forth has resulted in other information coming out that may very well have served the town much better by being still concealed. This whole thing seems orchestated to me and very suspicous.
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Hawkeye, Axelrod didn't include the possibility that I'm making it all up because DYH has stated that he is also from the Terminator mythos, making that possibility..not possible.
Didn't you claim before DYH made any mention of being from the Terminator mythos? That's how I have it in my notes, but I am open to being proven wrong here.
I don't know why I ever said I would answer Grak's PBPA. It was ridiculously biased to begin with, which soured me to it. I gave in to pressure somewhat in agreeing to acknowledge it, but I never felt that the timing was appropriate. Now, between how he acted towards Ljustus, his recent 'response' to atlseal, and how he's acted since my claim, I'm fairly convinced that Grak is scum, and am even less inclined to answer him. Oh well.
Quote from Cyan »
My wagon got started with a bunch of opportunistic scum latching onto an overly aggressive trumped up 'case' by Grakthis.
Ad hom with a side of deflection anyone? I would like to request a votecount as well with the new developments.
That’s an interesting perspective sitting up on top of that fence post most of the game has given you CP. That’s like reading a phrase like “the rolling stone catches the worm”. It kinda sounds good but if you look at it you realize what you just read was, at best, nonsense. At worst, it was deliberately misleading.
ISHMEOU
I should have my eye on u?
Regarding the part that in quotes, that's...deep.
Anyway, I basically said that precedent points to you being town, and that I think roleplaying is fairly useless as a tell despite that precedent. I didn't think that was especially hard to get, but whatever. I'm leaning toward you being a townie, while at the same time complaining that you aren't contributing much, focussing instead on making comments that are not designed to be understood or be of any use.
I think it's kinda fun that you say that I'm fence-sitting, though. I was accused of fence-sitting once before, by CC, I think. I challenged him on it and he went back and, you know, actually looked at my posts, and he changed his mind. I anticipate that if you do the same thing, you'll get the same result, because I'm pretty sure I haven't been fence-sitting on any issue that's been brought up. Your call, though.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
If anyone actually read that PBPA and thinks that the points are valid, they are kidding themselves. I guess I'm going to have to respond to it. Hopefully this will help people realize how ridiculous it is, and will make Hawkeye stop harassing me. I'll respond to it in my next post.
@AG: Yes, DYH stated that he was from the Terminator mythos after my claim, which makes my claim that much stronger. It has outside, independent verification. It wouldn't mean nearly as much if he had stated the before I claimed.
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Let's try this again.. if no one was disagreeing with you, then who were you correcting when you "mistyped?" If what you meant to say was that you think LJ is scum, then why did you say it in the first place? Everyone already know that.
Who were you talking to?
Or maybe, you're the T-800 from the first movie and you're here to kill John Connor. Maybe you're the SK?
A bodyguard for a SINGLE role that we have been given no implication is important to the town, especially in light of how scummy you've been, does nothing for me.
Especially, since if JOhn Conner was the original "one" then he'd be LONG dead by this point in the plot line.
And why would the machines "capture" a t-800 from the future and insert him into the matrix? The machines could write a much better program than the crappy T-800. The T-800 would get it's ass kicked by Seraph or Neo or pretty much any of the hardcore badasses in the matrix.
This has a billion flavor holes in it, when combined with your scummy behavior all over the place, it does nothing for me.
And if you die, it's just as good as lynching Cyan, because we still get a confirmed townie out of it.
I'm ready for you to die now.
If you were assigned to "protect" this role, wouldn't it make a certain amount of sense for a counter-role to be in the game that wants to "terminate" him? And then, couldn't you just as easily be that counter role?
Or there's no counter role, just you, out to kill him? I'm just speculating, but you were the one who seemed to think the claim was 100% solid.
I don't know, it still doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a scum gambit either. Unless John Conner is a complete fabrication of yours.
Also: Unvote: LJustus. Lynching him may not be the thing to do after all today.
There was no John Connor in the first movie. Now, I'm 99% sure Cyan is telling the truth about knowing there is a John Connor in the game. Later, if/when we find out there isn't one, Cyan is an auto-lynch. The only way he can be scum is if:
a. He's really a T-1000, or
b. He made up the whole T-800/JC relationship (in which case he'll be found out later.
And what does the T-800 getting it's ass kicked by Neo/Seraph/a lollypop kid have to do with anything, when the role is 'town bodyguard' and those would also be town roles. I'm fairly confident that roles on the same side don't fight each other.
I am leaning along these lines myself for the moment.
I highly, highly doubt that the T1000 or TX are in the game, because of the finer points of the way my role works. Which again, I am not going to disclose. You're better off trying to kill me than the mafia knowing exactly how to exploit my role.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I thought of something similar to those two scenarios as well while I was reading this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-800. Originally T-800 was the villian of the franchise and only later became good.
First off, we don't know a lot about former "Ones" in the Matrix, The Architect states that there were 5 before Neo. I don't believe that all 5 of Neo's predecessors were named in the storyline, so I wouldn't a priori doubt that Az made other "Ones" appear in this game on various sides of the conflict.
Secondly, I wouldn't count a T-800 out in any fight, so bodyguard makes some sense (although I wouldn't be surprised if it was a "Lurch" role like Axel had in Elegant). I mean, Arnold kicked the crap out of T-1000 in T2 and T-X in T3 (and a lot hotter than him too), both of which were supposedly "superior".
I'm flatly not revealing anything else about my role, ZDS, no matter how much you(or anyone) subtlely try to dig for information.
This argument makes absolutely no sense. Isn't the whole point of the game to lynch the scum? Do you think there's really a scum role that's so powerful as to be lynch-proof or something? Seriously, I can't get lynched if I try? That's kinda silly. I'm too suspicious to lynch. Really?
Well, that's mostly true. Sarah Conner got pregnant in the first movie. Killing John Conner was still the point.
So, let me tell you a story about a game I designed on MT. There was a role for a character who, in the books, died to save one of the main characters.
But in the game, this "bodyguard" type character was scum.
But the scum took a gambit and said "I am a bodyguard for character X."
And character X ended up being in the game. And so no one doubted the scum and he survived till the end when they won.
It's a classic scum move.
In fact, I did something similar in Robinson Crusoe mafia on MT. I was Robinson Crusoe himself (mafia don), and I was laying the groundwork to claim my relationship with another character I suspected was in the game. He wasn't, so it would have later bit me in the ass, but it was a reasonable gambit.
But the "one" would be dead! He has a pysical body with a limited lifespan.
It makes no sense.
Think back to the kinds of things Agents and redpills did in the movies. They could rip concrete apart with their fists. They could move faster than bullets.
The T-X and T-1000 woudl both get wailed on by a run of the mill agent!
The computer programs in the matrix are waaaay superior to the physical aspects of the terminators. So unless the machines did an upgrade... which woudl still not make sense. Why not just write a new program?
No... not buying it.
And if you are of the mindset that you want to lynch someone to verify someone else, lynching Cyan and having him turn up town verifies Conner. And I think there is a MUCH higher chance of Cyan being scum than LJustus.
Very well then.
Vote: LJustus
I am in favor of lynching LJ today to investigate Cyan.
If LJ is scum, no problem.
If LJ is town and Cyan comes up town, we'll have two confirmed roles.
If LJ is town and Cyan comes up scum, we can have atlseal vigs him.
Also, for the record, I don't understand why Cyan must claim in the first place. If we execute the lynch LJ plan and he is town, then we can just vig the scum Cyan or just leave the town Cyan alone without revealing a claim.
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And also, he never had a physical body in the Matrix in the first place, no one does, remember? His essence has just always lived on.
Something else, I really don't remotely see the logic in claiming knowledge of a role that doesn't actually exist. What would be the point of a gambit that is doomed to fail?
And what happened to your 5 seconds ago theory that maybe I'm really the T1000, looking to kill Connor(nevermind the already mentioned flavor discrepancies here).
DYH has already confirmed that he is a Terminator role as well, meaning that there is no way at all that I'm just making this up as I go along, so this latest theory of yours is out.
The point was that Cyan said his claim was 100% townie. If that was true (and, in fact, it's not, though it's not bad) then lynching LJustus to get an inspection on Cyan would be a complete waste. I'd much, much rather get an inspection on someone we have less info on.
@Grakthis: I love how something that is a ridiculously huge gambit that you have one example of is a 'classic scum move'. You are seriously grasping at straws now. That's not even a good play, it's just lazy town play that overlooked the fact that, somehow, they both stayed alive the entire game, and resulted in a scum being abnormally lucky.
@Axelrod: My claim is 100% town, in my mind. There is no chance whatsoever that the T1000 is in the game. I know this because Azrael originally sent me the wrong role PM and said I was the T1000. I had to PM him and ask him to clarify this, pointing out that the T1000 is the bad guy, at which point he corrected it to state that I am actually the T800. This is also why I disbelieve that the TX is in the game..the Terminator from T3 is a T850. There is only one instance of the 'T800 Model 101' in all of the Terminator mythos, and it is the one that is in T2. I guess it's possible that the TX exists as a counter to my role, but considering how my role works, I find this fairly unlikely.
Partially Sarnath'd by DYH: their essences would live on, or since they contain code themselves, become totally code or exiles or some weird middling form?
Arguing against and prodividing sources:
Sounds like T-1000 could do pretty well against an agent or redpill to me.
Just use wikipedia for sourcing (entries T-1000 and T-X)
Sounds like either one of these could match up against Matrix characters, without a problem. And remember, in T3, T-X took T-800 through and entire city block's worth of buildings and he came out only slightly scratched.
Grak, you are sounding a lot like you did in Gangsta with the flavor arguments. Remember where that got you?
Unvote, Vote Cyan.
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How could the Chesire cat conceivably be scum? How could the random drug addicts from the first matrix movie conceivably be scum?
If your body dies in the real world, your body dies int he matrix. If he aged and got old in the real world, he would die.
So instead it would have to be like a program that is created to immitate john conner.
Did you miss my example?
Still possible.
Agreed. It's far more likely that you are claiming something very CLOSE to your real role and only lying about alignment or ability and possibly model number.
Man... you crack me up.
It's such a tiny tiny gambit. It's not like the town is gonna go "ok, everyone claim and if no one is John Conner, then we lynch him." That would be stupid.
So, it's not a major gambit. It's a really small gambit, because the alternative is that we lynch you RIGHT NOW.
And what you're saying is, if you and john conner are both still alive in a few days, we should automatically lynch you? Just like that?
Discussing a mod screw up and using it of proof of anything makes me want to vomit. Terrible gamesmanship even if you are telling the truth. And if you're lying, you should be modkilled for it. Bad form in every way.
Yeah, it got me another win marked down on JSextons sheet >:3
And I am arguing the OPPOSITE position this time! He's acted scummy as all hell, and I am not letting his weak roleclaim save him!
Also, your flavor argument is demonstrably false.
1) T-800 killed by sarah conner and whats his face.
2) t-1000 killed by t-800 and sarah conner.
3) T-whatever killed by t-800
So... in conclusion, they are all weaker than a bunch of normal average humans with shotguns and grenades.
So explain to me how an agent, who moves faster than them, cannot die, is strong enough to smash stone and pretty much has any weapon he wants at his disposal, cannot take them out?
Or Morpheaus who used a SWORD to cut through a MOVING CAR in the 2nd film. And remember in the mirovingians house when dudes are just destorying stone columns with swords and maces and such?
Hell, and this isn't even including the legacy creatures like the two ghosty dudes who could warp through things or the werewolves and ****.
First of all, this is a Superman vs. Batman argument. You can't seriously argue that Batman is stronger just because if they got in a fight, Batman would bring Kryptonite. Objectively, Superman is far stronger, just like objectively, T-X is highly capable of competing on an even keel with an agent. The fact that the plots of the movies made certain unusual things happen that shouldn't normally (using the term normal in the loosest way possible) happen doesn't mean anything. And in any case, this argument is completely irrelevant to the point at hand.
I'm pretty sure that Abbey was saying that your argument (that Terminator characters are unlikely to be in the game because they're too weak to compete) is based on false premises, because flavor arguments about who is stronger are irrelevant. He's right.
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David would totally beat up Goliath <___<
Aren't you like 5'2"?
CP and Abbey are right, though, the flavor argument is a stretch, I think.
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1. Loran16 - could easily be scum
2. Spoon - I've thought most of what he's had to say sounded reasonable
3. Fadeblue - could be scum. Definitely in the background
4. DYH - could be scum. This whole LJustus/Cyan thing has increased the odds of this in my mind. But still unknown.
5. Rafaelk - Nothing bad standing out. More reasonable than usual. This probably means he's scum
6. Axelrod - I am me.
7. J-Effe IV (Replacing Wizzpig) - Pretty much unknown
8. Hawkeye7 - always a risk because he always slides by as scum. That said, nothing scummy standing out yet. His early role-playing I see as more townish than not.
9. Athos - Chronic Lurker. This is not really a tell for him, it's just extremely annoying.
10. LJustus - Saffi. Death Investigator type. Hard to see how gambiting to get yourself lynched is scummy, baring some wacky recruitment-type role.
11. Grakthis - early feeling was townish. The unrelenting all out attack against Cyan is souring him a bit in my eyes though. Inculding arguing about if an Agent could beat up a Terminator or not.
12. Alx2 - townish
13. Abbeygargoyle - kind of unknown. Why are you arguing about whether a Terminator could beat up an agent or not? Who the heck cares?
14. Cyan - T-800. Bodyguard. Now leaning more townish. Either that or him and John Connor are both scum roles, which would seem odd.
15. Xyre - still scummy looking
16. ZDS - man, he still seems scummy, but Mason claim FTW.
17. Pod - kind of unknown. Laid back for Pod? Could be scum.
18. Vampyr - still somewhat scummish. I've liked some of his recent posts a bit better.
19. Atlseal - Cheshire Cat. JoaT. Dubious play before claim. Now in "put up or shut up" mode.
20. Carrion Pigeons - triple votes. Other than the ability, I've seen nothing that would give me great confidence.
21. Hvir - scummy and lurking.
22. Dagger - who? Could be scum.
23. Sutherlands - vote-count man. This may be another "put up or shut up" situation. I haven't liked a lot of his posts, and the ultimate explanation for the vote-counts isn't satisfying, I'll probably be voting him.
Vote: Hvirfinder as my best pick for scum at the present time.
(A) I wasn't doing it for you, and (B) it's still better than anything you have done this game.
Bodyguard is an easy role to fake claim.
Explain it to me then, why don't you.
No, we'll have one confirmed (maybe) role and one dead townie. Brilliant.
Anyway, I'm not comfortable enough with Cyan's claim to let him off the hook. All things considered, unless there's something he's not telling us, his death probably wouldn't harm the town if in fact he's telling the truth. For Day 1 lynches, that's pretty good.
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loran - Has behaved scummily in general. Without info on the alignments of people he's interacted with, it's hard to say whether it's just playstyle or not, but I'm willing to let him slide for now because 1) he isn't the scummiest player so far, and 2) he's either going to start looking really bad or quite a bit better once people start dying.
Spoon - other than being the gimmick account, has he said/done anything of note? Middle of the road, likely to stay there for a while yet.
fadeblue - he actually does do this, not contributing much in the early game. He's said before that his best time for contribution is later in the game, and that he tends to not be very useful early on. His comments on Suth not being the scummiest player without comments on who is, on the other hand, seem unusual, both because he isn't one for latching on to someone this early, nor is he one for letting them slide if he does latch on to them. Not a good target for now, but ought to be giving more input than he is, or else offering less advice.
DYH - I haven't disagreed with anything he's said that I recall. Seems pretty townie.
RafaelK - has spent some effort examining non-tells from people he disagrees with, as though it were evidence of something. Has made an effort to start arguments with multiple people so that he can call them scummy. Not liking his attitude nor the direction his focus has been on.
Axelrod - much the same as fade, but without the lack of opinions.
J-Effe IV - garnering suspicion for being quiet as Wizzpig, his successor to the role has not changed that. Either he'll keep garnering suspicion and end up getting lynched once he comments on something, or else he'll make a good point/clear himself somehow and catch everyone by surprise. Either way, not a priority now.
Hawkeye7 - RPing is basically the same as lurking until something comes along to decode the wierd posting style. Precedent says this happens fairly rarely, which suggests that he is likely town, albeit kind of useless. Nothing to really say here besides that it would nice to get more input.
Athos - our resident chamber. Not a priority.
LJustus - I'm all for saving his role for a later date. If there's any doubt who to lynch after Day 3, he makes an awesome lynch; it may even break the game open. Right now, his ability is likely just a shot in the dark. I don't him plausibly lying, not do I see it as a priority to figure out right now, given that he will almost certainly be lynched before we reach the endgame.
Grakthis - honestly, no read at all here. Which, given his acclaimed status, makes me think scum. Not that that is real evidence of any kind.
Alx2 - similar to Axelrod. Nothing of any great note here, IMO.
AbbeyGargoyle - seems to just want to argue. I haven't gone back to look, but I don't think he's introduced any ideas of his own, while at the same time, he shoots down all the ideas from others that seem easy to shoot down. I generally think of that as scummy behavior; I know I tend to do it regardless of my alignment, but other people are generally more interested in putting forth ideas as town than otherwise. This is just a general impression, though.
Cyan - I'm not getting more of a scum read than normal, but that means little coming from Cyan. His claim seems weak to me, and his lack of comprehension about why it is weak also seems a little on the forced side. The amount of suspicion he garnered before the claim seems unwarranted, though, which makes me lean the other way. It would be nice if we could narrow down the reasons for the wagon, because some of them suck; once we only had people supporting the genuine reasons for voting him, it would be easier to see if this were a serious lynchwagon.
Xyre - he's only recently topped atl in scumminess, IMO. Mostly because atl hasn't been posting much lately, I'll grant, but I would be utterly unsurprised to see Xyre turn up scum, and if the Cyan wagon dies then this is the only reasonable place to go, if you ask me.
ZDS - is a mason, I don't see him lying.
Pod - Who? Is he in this game?
Vampyr - I don't think I see a scum here, and I'm pretty sure I didn't before, either. Vampyr's responses to Axelrod seemed honest, and the way he dealt with it struck me as not being something a scum would do.
atl - great vig target.
carrion pigeons - at your service.
Hvir - at least he isn't lurking as much as he did in SC Mafia :cool:. 'Course, he was town, then, wasn't he? I think the last time I played a game with him was Battlestar Galactica Mafia, or whatever it was called, forever ago. Can't say I have any kind of read here, but I suspect he's worthy of some pressure at some point.
Dagger - obviously a power role.
Sutherlands - Getting a townie vibe here, I think. I doubt he could fool himself into thinking that the vote counts do anything more than make people look at him harder, and I disagree that his posts have reflected more scumminess than your average player. If he's faking the restriction, then he's got cajones and I think he deserves a chance to screw up before we go anywhere with it. If he isn't, then Az is being awfully forgiving, but then, having modded a few roles with serious posting restrictions before, I can see him doing that, as long as the spirit of the role is kept.
Anyway, so most of the time, I agree with Axel, but I'd like to continue the Cyan wagon for a bit until we get a stronger grasp of who's on it for the right reasons and who may not be. From there, I'd be happy to either lynch Cyan or focus on Xyre, depending on what we see.
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Personally, I feel quite comfortable with Cyan's claim and I feel we need to take his word on it for now. It seems to fit quite well flavor-wise and the fact that DYH is also from the same verse makes it seem to stick better. Grak's continued attack on him is what I'm finding really suspicious. Especially the basis on complete flavor comparison between Terminator and the Matrix (uterly pointless). In fact, at first I thought it was a joke, but now it's apparent that it's a little more serious than that.
I think the right play has gone from lynching LJustus and having him investigate Cyan to having him investigate Grak. My vote's going to stay where it is. However, FOS: Grak
FOS's are for cowards and scum. Which are you?
c) Someone with only one vote that likes the LJustus investigation plan
Personally, i think if we lynch LJ, we should have him investigate atlseal. If he's town, then we solve the question he poses early. If he's scum, well, we can take what he says with a grain of salt.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Yeah, well, I can understand, I'm a pretty dangerous character.
That’s an interesting perspective sitting up on top of that fence post most of the game has given you CP. That’s like reading a phrase like “the rolling stone catches the worm”. It kinda sounds good but if you look at it you realize what you just read was, at best, nonsense. At worst, it was deliberately misleading.
ISHMEOU
Or he is making up the claim entirely.
Or he is making up John Conner being in the game.
Or he is an SK and needs to find and kill John Conner.
This is odd and not at all like you Axe. There are several other possibilities and even if you think them of no consequence I would have bet that you would have at least mentioned them or that they exist but that you think they are not useful.
You did not do that, You omitted them.
Why is that?
Here is a readers digest version of my thinking on Cyan and Ljustus.
If I have left out an option or two it is because I forgot or did not think of it or thought of it but did not find it useful for the town.
Please point them out if you feel like it.
Looking at his posts without filtering them with the knowledge that Cyan made them, I find him suspicious.
Looking at the way he said he would address the case against him http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2088489&postcount=574
and then refused to, after repeated requests for him to follow through on his promise to address them, I find him suspicious.
He could have easily diffused the scrutiny of him by addressing the case made against him, even if he address only most of it, but he did not. Why is that? He either did not to generate the situation that we have, or he felt that he could not without being caught in a lie, or he thought the heat would die down. This last one is wishful thinking, imo, considering the reaction he gets in most games. Also after it became apparent that the suspicion was not dying down what did he do? He out and out refused to address the case, then he role claimed a little before he really needed to, imo, especially when all he would have had to do was address the case, if he was town. The role claim he came up with can’t be proved without someone using an ability or him being lynched. If he is scum and has been corned then he has just maximized the information the mafia will gain by losing him to a lynch or vig kill.
If we lynch Cyan and he is lying we nail a scum. We also do not know for sure if John Conner is in the game or if he is in the game, if he is a townie or not.
If we lynch Cyan and he is telling the truth we lose a town body guard and gain a confirmed role in John Conner.
In my opinion this is a much preferable scenario then lynching Ljustus and investigating someone. LJ’s second ability will kick in if he is nk’d and at worst we will confirm the John Conner role.
My vote is staying on Cyan.
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Because of the high probably that I'll be blocked tonight and LJustus's ability, from what I gather, will give us the result without the chance of being blocked by anyone. I'll take a guarenteed investigation any day.
I'd rather just lynch atlseal tomorrow after getting his investigation no matter what happens. The only reason I haven't advocated lynching him today is that I figure it's worth waiting and getting his result just in case he isn't scum. LJ's investigation can better be used elsewhere.
I don't know why I ever said I would answer Grak's PBPA. It was ridiculously biased to begin with, which soured me to it. I gave in to pressure somewhat in agreeing to acknowledge it, but I never felt that the timing was appropriate. Now, between how he acted towards Ljustus, his recent 'response' to atlseal, and how he's acted since my claim, I'm fairly convinced that Grak is scum, and am even less inclined to answer him. Oh well.
And what would be the point of answering it now anyway? I've already claimed, nothing is going to supercede that.
1. If it was started by "a bunch of opportunistic scum latching onto an overly aggressive trumped up 'case' by Grakthis", you could've shown this before you claimed by proving the case to be bull.
2. You're right that answering it now won't have nearly as much of a point as it would've before, but you still should've.
Improbable, maybe highly improbable but not, not possible.
You may find it biased, but there is no denying that in the minds of may other players in the game, the case has many valid points. Points that are just as valid now as they were when the case was made. Had you addressed the case when it was made it is very likely that you would not have had to role claim or be in the position your are in now.
As I said before, this fact is obvious to the point of making it suspicous that you ignored it. Things progressed in a very predictable manner and out comes your claim. Not just a name claim but a full role claim. No one really pressured you to reveal all the information that you did and it's coming forth has resulted in other information coming out that may very well have served the town much better by being still concealed. This whole thing seems orchestated to me and very suspicous.
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Didn't you claim before DYH made any mention of being from the Terminator mythos? That's how I have it in my notes, but I am open to being proven wrong here.
Ad hom with a side of deflection anyone? I would like to request a votecount as well with the new developments.
I should have my eye on u?
Regarding the part that in quotes, that's...deep.
Anyway, I basically said that precedent points to you being town, and that I think roleplaying is fairly useless as a tell despite that precedent. I didn't think that was especially hard to get, but whatever. I'm leaning toward you being a townie, while at the same time complaining that you aren't contributing much, focussing instead on making comments that are not designed to be understood or be of any use.
I think it's kinda fun that you say that I'm fence-sitting, though. I was accused of fence-sitting once before, by CC, I think. I challenged him on it and he went back and, you know, actually looked at my posts, and he changed his mind. I anticipate that if you do the same thing, you'll get the same result, because I'm pretty sure I haven't been fence-sitting on any issue that's been brought up. Your call, though.
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@AG: Yes, DYH stated that he was from the Terminator mythos after my claim, which makes my claim that much stronger. It has outside, independent verification. It wouldn't mean nearly as much if he had stated the before I claimed.