Yes... that's good logic. "If you do this, then you're scum, but I can do it because I'm town."
Actually, it's flawless logic. Since, there is no uncertainty about my alignment for me, and there is uncertainty about everyone elses.
Oh, I don't expect YOU to believe me, but I don't need you to in order to make my point. All that matters is that given the premise that I am a townie, the conclusion maintins it's validity.
Actually, it's flawless logic. Since, there is no uncertainty about my alignment for me, and there is uncertainty about everyone elses.
Oh, I don't expect YOU to believe me, but I don't need you to in order to make my point. All that matters is that given the premise that I am a townie, the conclusion maintins it's validity.
We can worry about proving the premise later.
What what what? Your understanding that you personally are a townie mitigates all need to prove that you are a townie? What kind of crap logic is that?!
Also, I want to ask you that question I asked you at the beginning of the game again: If I say spoon boy doesn't exist, am I spoon boy?
Can't really post right now, but Suth i said i Unvoted cp a while aback....is there a reason why you forget to change that i should know about?
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I'm still having a hard time believing that 4 people are voting for CP. Of course, the fact that 2 of them are Xyre and Loran, easily the most suspicious people in this game so far, makes CP look pretty good. Ironically, the fact that they're voting for CP, IMO, only makes Loran and Xyre look that much worse. I'm having a hard time deciding which of them to keep my vote on, mostly because I think they're both very lynchworthy right now.
EBWODP, never mind, i got 5 minutes. I can post this at least:
Im not voting CP at the moment mr cyan. This is called an incorrect vote count. Though it is certainly noted that you are still deciding on two equally big wagons before you place your vote for good on one. IGMEOYCYAN..
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
EBWODP Before my mom comes upstairs and yells at me, did grak just say (paraphrased) because "I'm a townie i can use scummy language to make a PBPA? " I mean, im sorry thats just godawful. Vote Grakthis.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
For example, voting you for pressure is a perfectly acceptable action. And the way you dismissed the votes without responding to them reads like scum who is basically saying "ah ah, townies, I see your trap! and I'm not falling for it!"
Had I received a vote from one of the players whom I trust to be capable of rational thought instead of being voted off, like fadeblue, RafaelK or HAWKEYE7, I might have more cause to respond, since they would actually be backing up their vote with substance. carrion pigeons has not.
Then, you shoot back by accusing me of barging into the discussion. Your use of the word barging here, is especially worth noting, because it carescarries a strong negative connotation to it. OnTo the contrary, I am not barging into anything. Tell me, if you hit a line drive into left field and the outfielders catches it, is he "barging" into your basehit?
If you could translate your last analogy into cricket terms, I'd be much obliged, since I haven't got the foggiest idea what you're going on about.
Quote from Grakthis »
All reactions are positive to a townie. Only scum look for a distinction between positive and negative reactions because only scum are trying to portray anything other than their genuine feelings.
Would anyone care to back Grakthis on this particular statement? I don't believe this statement of his to be true, but I'm willing to listen to other opinions.
With reference to my earlier statement, the one that caused you to make the statement above.
Quote from Hvirfilvindr »
While I would agree that throwing votes around gets reactions, I doubt it's of the positive variety. If every other post a player makes consists of unvoting then voting for whoever happens to be the flavour of the minute, the other players are going to begin dismissing that player's posts as unnecessary background noise, and rightfully so. Vote when it matters; not just because you can.
The 'negative reaction' I'm talking about isn't coming from the person being voted for, but from the rest of the players. If in theory Xyre or carrion pigeons (terribly sorry about using your names, but your voting patterns have been rather erratic lately) were to receive proof of the scumminess of X during the Night, how likely would they be of convincing the rest of us?
Quote from Grakthis »
So, again, we see you using fun colorwords that don't mean much but clearly are intended to sway people.
A by-product of law school, unfortunately. Make of it what you will.
Quote from Grakthis »
For example, I especially love the quote "vote when it matters; not just because you can." Voting ALWAYS matters. By definition, a vote MATTERS. There is no such thing as a vote that doesn't matter. Even a vote placed on someone with no votes on them pushing towards a deadline when the leading vote getter is one away MATTERS because it says something about the person placing the vote.
Earlier on in the game, you threatened to vote for someone and continue voting for them for roleplaying. Not because you thought they were scummy, but because the way they posted irritated you. That's what I would call a poor use of a vote. Just because I have a problem with you (the general you) doesn't mean that I vote for you. I vote for someone if I think they're acting scummy.
Quote from Grakthis »
So again, I ask, why are you being so dismissive of votes that clearly DO matter?
Some voices (and votes) carry more weight than others. Yours is not one of them, no matter how much noise you make. Ideally, a vote represents that you feel suspicious about someone's behaviour, not that you harbour a dislike of them. I am not getting that sort of feeling from Xyre's or carrion pigeons' voting patterns.
Quote from Grakthis »
Why are you so scared of everything? Now you're scared of having your vote on record too.
My unvoting was in response to RafaelK's request for me to prove that I was capable of voting. My vote on loran16 at the time was not indicative of how I feel about him, scum-wise. As such, I had no reason to maintain my vote.
Quote from Grakthis »
Are you telling me that absolutlyabsolutely no one in the entire town is scummy? If you were told RIGHT THIS SECOND that someone had to die, there would be no one you would put above anyone else?
I'm not in a position to make a call right now. If I honestly believed that someone stood out from the rest of the players right now for being scummy, I would have laid a vote on them.
Good thing you clarify it, for a moment I've thought you were stating that Arimnaes' use of "Mr." was not an automatic indication of townieness.
?
Arimnaes' use of "Mr" is not an automatic indication of townieness. LJustus kind of suggested that it was, because it would be unfair to scum to out an aspect of their role like that. I thought loran was entirely serious (and correct) in pointing out arim took advantage of exactly that line of reasoning in Court Mafia. I'm not sure why he's apparently not standing by that.
The "I don't like your style" peeing matches going on between various combinations of Grak, Hvir, Loran, Xyre, cp etc aren't really achieving anything beyond clogging the thread and really need to stop.
Arimnaes' use of "Mr" is not an automatic indication of townieness. LJustus kind of suggested that it was, because it would be unfair to scum to out an aspect of their role like that. I thought loran was entirely serious (and correct) in pointing out arim took advantage of exactly that line of reasoning in Court Mafia. I'm not sure why he's apparently not standing by that.
I'm not saying that's not true. I agree, Arim saying Mr. doesnt clear him at all. But im just saying that when i made the statement, it was meant as a joke. The meanign you are taking from it was, and is perfectly true, but when i made the statement that wasnt my intent.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Grak, you go to hell with Dwight dancing on your grave for making a post like "He can't do it because it's scummy, but it's okay for me to, 'coz I'm town" and seemingly expecting the rest of us to...actually see this as a justification...if you think I need to explain why that is one of the dumbest reasons for acting scummy I've ever heard, please, let me know.
Unvote, Vote Grak.
A on the retardspeak, please.
And Alx, for god sake use default font instead of FONT=BLACK. There's no reason to do so other than to annoy people that read threads in dark skin.
So here's a little thing that's been bothering me. I see Sutherlands doing all these vote counts. A vote count in every post it almost appears. He even edited a post to add a vote count to it. Except it's not every post. Didn't do it in his very first post.
Why's he doing them then? Well, one would automatically think some kind of posting restriction, except, again, didn't do it in his first post. And what kind of posting restriction goes "you must do a vote-count in every post, except your first one."
So that was raising an eyebrow. But that's not the biggest eyebrow raiser. Because then there was this post from ZDS:
Quote from ZDS »
Looks like Spoon is this game's Squiggler, arimnaes has a roleplaying restriction, Sutherlands is into votecounts, atlseal can't read, and, err...
Quote from ZDS »
Why don't we start the usual flavor speculation ? You know, what kind of character could be scum and why. Can someone with good knowledge outside (and inside, too) of the trilogy make suggestions ?
The thing about that post is when it was made. It was post #23 of the game. At that point, Sutherlands had made a grand total of 2 posts. One of them was post #6, which didn't have a votecount in it, and one was #10, which did.
So what would lead you to conclude that Sutherlands was "into vote-counts" at a point in the game where he had done exactly one, and had another post without one?
The fact that Sutherlands demonstrates that he really is into votecounts afterwards, appears to make this post of ZDS's slightly psychic.
I don't trust psychics.
Unvote;
Vote: ZDS
This doesn't look great for Sutherlands either, frankly. Easiest way ZDS could know about him being "into vote-counts" is if they were on the same team, if you know what I mean.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Im gonna disagree here az....ive seen plenty of times where a mod doesnt want to modkill a PR'd player for forgetting hte PR in the first post.
And considering az joked how he wanted to give a player a role making them post post counts in sin city and htat sutherlands generally posts a ton, i cant imagine him making it up. Not to mention the fact that az allowed him to stay alive despite editing a post....an edit made to fix a vote count.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Im gonna disagree here az....ive seen plenty of times where a mod doesnt want to modkill a PR'd player for forgetting hte PR in the first post.
And considering az joked how he wanted to give a player a role making them post post counts in sin city and htat sutherlands generally posts a ton, i cant imagine him making it up. Not to mention the fact that az allowed him to stay alive despite editing a post....an edit made to fix a vote count.
What are you disagreeing with exactly? What do you think I just said?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Whoa Axelrod...amazing eye... Now that you pointed that out, I completely agree with that.
Unvote
Vote ZDS
@loran: I got the impression he's most suspicous of ZDS's claiming about Sutherlands being "into votes" when there was only one instance of that to begin with out of two posts by Suth at that point.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
What are you disagreeing with exactly? What do you think I just said?
Oh huh...i thought you were saying suth was faking as well, but i see now you meant that the two of them could be mafia together. Suth could be mafia with that posting restriction.
Just ignore my point then. and yeah you're right, zds figured that out with too little info.
Hmmm, Unvote. I'd like to hear ZDS' response to both alx and axel.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
So what would lead you to conclude that Sutherlands was "into vote-counts" at a point in the game where he had done exactly one, and had another post without one?
The fact that Sutherlands demonstrates that he really is into votecounts afterwards, appears to make this post of ZDS's slightly psychic.
I don't trust psychics.
Unvote;
Vote: ZDS
DINGDINGDING PRIZEWIN!!!
...
Is what an oafish and emotive human might say. Nevertheless, Mr. Axelrod, I believe you may have just given us a trenchant insight.
Unvote, Vote ZeDorkSlipeur. Those who mysteriously possess extra information are subject to summary deletion. You have been warned.
Don't think for a second that the Matrix will forget about you, Mr. Vampyr. We'll be back soon enough.
Eh, it could simply be that ZDS figured something was up, because it isn't Sutherlands' habit to post vote counts. I'm frankly surprised that Az is giving him so many chances if it is a posting restriction, considering that he's both forgotten a post and edited a post after the fact.
I've already mentioned I had a bad feeling about ZDS. Axel has presented good information. I also felt the same exact thing about Sutherlands when I saw the editted-in vote count.
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
A couple points:
1) The points against ZDS actually seem to have congealed into a lynchworthy case, to my amazement. We aren't even 300 posts into the game. Good job. Happy to add any votes when ZDS responds, assuming he can't diffuse the points against him.
2) @Hvir: In the US, the phrase actually is "On the contrary." Just so you know.
3) also @Hvir: try reading the past two days' worth of posts again and then tell me that my votes were meaningless. Also, I have made it very clear who exactly I wanted to lynch, even when they weren't the people I was voting for. Somehow, I rather expect that after a few people are dead, people are going to be grateful for the reactions I got out of people, while people are going to be annoyed by the ambiguity you brought to the discussion.
4) @Xyre: don't start calling people on rapid changes of playstyle until at least a week passes. My access allows me to be far more involved in the discussion on Tue-Thurs, and on Saturday.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Nice spot on ZDS Axel. With the analysis a few posts back I think we have a case here. I'm looking forward to hearing ZDS's explanation, and if this does not satisfy me then my vote will be flying his way. For now FoS ZDS
@Axelrod : When you see a vote count as early as post 10, doesn't it surprise you ?
Perhaps. But not to the extent of saying that the person is into votecounts.
Quote from ZDS »
It's already rare when players make vote counts, and they usually only do so when there's a concrete need to. Hence my surprise of seeing Sutherlands doing a post count this early (something he has never done before to my knowledge).
This sounds like rationalization after the fact to me, much as with Xyre's explanation of why he'd think Spoon typo'd "we" for "I". This doesn't sound like something you'd think at the time. Who thinks this way- "hmmm, have I ever seen Sutherlands do a votecount before? He must be really into them in this game to do one".
I think Axelrod is right that you slipped- even better, a slip that gives away a second scum if Axelrod is right. And you were already suspicious anyway.
@Axelrod : When you see a vote count as early as post 10, doesn't it surprise you ? It's already rare when players make vote counts, and they usually only do so when there's a concrete need to. Hence my surprise of seeing Sutherlands doing a post count this early (something he has never done before to my knowledge).
As several other people have said, it was how you described it in your post that was suspicious. Saying something along the lines of "Sutherlands has beat the mod to the draw counting votes" would have been fine at that point in the game. Rather, you said he was "into vote counts" which turned out to be predictive. I understand the use of metaphor (it has gotten me into trouble for mafia before), but this is suspicious.
I don't like how fast people are voting for me, especially since some of those people are pretty high on my scum-dar (welcome to the second spot of my scumlist, atlseal !). Since when is sense of observation a vote-worthy offense ?
Anyway, I'm at eight votes by my count. If some people are hellbent on following the scum-wagon on me, they shouldn't add more than one vote, two at the very maximum. Third vote, and that'll be a lynch. You've been warned. (yes, I still know how to count, thanks for asking)
This part of your post REALLY bothers me. While votes have been flying to you quite rapidly, the combination of alx's PBPA and Axel's catch make the speed of this wagon more of a non-issue for me.
However, not only do you appeal to the speed of the wagon, but try a subtle deflection, and an insinuation that there are scum on your wagon. Combined with your general tone of "woe is me" makes me want to throw my support behind your wagon, with vote if necessary to at least get a claim out of you.
What what what? Your understanding that you personally are a townie mitigates all need to prove that you are a townie? What kind of crap logic is that?!
Also, I want to ask you that question I asked you at the beginning of the game again: If I say spoon boy doesn't exist, am I spoon boy?
Xyre, my first reaction is to explain to you that you can't read. But seeing as how your friend sutherland (and apparently Loran too) doesn't get it either, maybe I didn't explain it very well. So let's try it this way instead:
an argument has the following rough form....
Premise + Logic = Conclusion.
Now, the logic in this case is sound (townies behavior is motivated to help the town) therefore if the premise is sound (I am a townie) then the conclusion is sound (My behavior, no matter what it seems like, is dedicated to helping the town).
Therefore, as long as AT SOME POINT IN THE GAME it is demonstrated that I am a townie (either by my death, or in my case by simply reading my role PM) then you (universal you, not neccesarily YOU) will know that my actions were clearly town aligned.
The point is, *I* know my alignment. Therefore, *I* can classify my behavior. I *cannot* classify *your* behavior.
Let's emphasize the key points here: At no point did I say a word about proving anything to anyone and wheather or not that would be neccesary. At no point did I suggest that this proves anything to anyone else right now
It's an effort in sophism. All I am saying is that I can trust my own motivations, but not anyone elses. When Is aid that the first time, someone questioned the logic on it. So I explained it out slowly.
Also, your question doesn't make sense to me. The answer to your question is "indeterminate."
Quote from hvir »
If you could translate your last analogy into cricket terms, I'd be much obliged, since I haven't got the foggiest idea what you're going on about.
I don't know cricket, but let's try this instead.... if in european football, I put a strike on goal, and the goalie stops it, is he "barging into" your goal?
Quote from Hvir »
Earlier on in the game, you threatened to vote for someone and continue voting for them for roleplaying. Not because you thought they were scummy, but because the way they posted irritated you. That's what I would call a poor use of a vote. Just because I have a problem with you (the general you) doesn't mean that I vote for you. I vote for someone if I think they're acting scummy.
Earlier in the game we were in the dicking around to be funny phase.
Also, I didn't place that vote. I just threatened to.
Quote from Hvir »
Some voices (and votes) carry more weight than others. Yours is not one of them, no matter how much noise you make. Ideally, a vote represents that you feel suspicious about someone's behaviour, not that you harbour a dislike of them. I am not getting that sort of feeling from Xyre's or carrion pigeons' voting patterns.
I don't know... my voice sure seems to be carrying some weight in this game so far.
Though, again, I am troubled by your notion that only SOME votes matter.
Sounds like the way a scum who is trying to pick and choose his battles would think, and not how a townie who is just posting honest analysis would think.
Quote from hvir »
I'm not in a position to make a call right now. If I honestly believed that someone stood out from the rest of the players right now for being scummy, I would have laid a vote on them.
Then get in a position to make a call.
If you're not voting for SOMEONE, you're not playing mafia. Period.
Someone has to die. Make your opinion known and VOTE.
Quote from Rafael »
The "I don't like your style" peeing matches going on between various combinations of Grak, Hvir, Loran, Xyre, cp etc aren't really achieving anything beyond clogging the thread and really need to stop.
if that's what you think is going on here, you're not paying attention to the game.
What is going on here, is players figuring eachother out.
If you can't follow, then stop pissing in our sandbox.
Quote from Spoon »
Grak, you go to hell with Dwight dancing on your grave for making a post like "He can't do it because it's scummy, but it's okay for me to, 'coz I'm town" and seemingly expecting the rest of us to...actually see this as a justification...if you think I need to explain why that is one of the dumbest reasons for acting scummy I've ever heard, please, let me know.
Please actually read my posts before you respond to them, tks.
Also,
Quote from spoon »
A on the retardspeak, please.
I was under the impression that ad hom was frowned on here. Are you telling me it's ok for me to call people retards? Because if so, this opens up an entirely new aspect of my game.
Quote from ZDR »
I don't like how fast people are voting for me, especially since some of those people are pretty high on my scum-dar (welcome to the second spot of my scumlist, atlseal !). Since when is sense of observation a vote-worthy offense ?
Second scummiest post in the game so far.
Axelrod might be onto something with you, but my problem with his analysis is that it basically requires you to be... let's say... less than bright. Not sure how I feel about that yet.
@ZDS And "I've been bad about showing Intent"? I've said from the beginning that the post was meant as a jest. So I think i've been pretty clear. But it's nice that you manage to make an accusation against me in the same post you're trying to defend yourself. Vote ZDS. For the record, i'm in favor of just a nameclaim first, (as i think the previous posters are), so don't go full claiming. (But i think you're smart enough to realize this).
The point is, *I* know my alignment. Therefore, *I* can classify my behavior. I *cannot* classify *your* behavior.
Let's emphasize the key points here: At no point did I say a word about proving anything to anyone and wheather or not that would be neccesary. At no point did I suggest that this proves anything to anyone else right now
Okay, so we get it, you have confidence in your actions being townie as "you know you are town." the problem is that when you use such loaded language in a pbpa, the rest of us, who currently have no way to know your alignment, get a bit suspicious.
Your response to sutherlands' accusation about your pbpa (well wasnt a pbpa, but you know what i mean) seemed to be that "I'm a townie, therefore i can use loaded language, and you'll all just follow along with it since I'm a townie." Which is craplogic at its finest. Heck, even if you were a confirmed townie, we wouldnt want you using loaded language.
Even the most confirmed of townies can be locked into believing a person is scum, and i know its happened before where a townie is SOOO sure that his target is scum, that he makes a flawed pbpa without realizing it. And if that townie was confirmed, the town might follow along with the pbpa leading to a mistake. A loaded pbpa isnt a pbpa. It's not analysis. It's an opinion injected into a form where it looks like intellegent analysis of another's posts. Which is not helpful for the town.
I don't know... my voice sure seems to be carrying some weight in this game so far.
Though, again, I am troubled by your notion that only SOME votes matter.
Sounds like the way a scum who is trying to pick and choose his battles would think, and not how a townie who is just posting honest analysis would think.
Or he realizes its 13 to lynch, and you a player he doesn tknow is the only one accusing him (Hvir should know cp, so i dont know why he doesnt respect him).
Then get in a position to make a call.
If you're not voting for SOMEONE, you're not playing mafia. Period.
Someone has to die. Make your opinion known and VOTE.
Agreed. Votes are nice, H-guy. It helps to know where you stand, and considering you're (H-guy) not as frequent poster as some, it would be nice to know where that is.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Your response to sutherlands' accusation about your pbpa (well wasnt a pbpa, but you know what i mean) seemed to be that "I'm a townie, therefore i can use loaded language, and you'll all just follow along with it since I'm a townie." Which is craplogic at its finest. Heck, even if you were a confirmed townie, we wouldnt want you using loaded language.
Yes. I know. It was supposed to be tongue in cheek. No one was supposed to go "Oh... well, in that case Grak, carry on."
The point is that I don't notice when/if I use loaded language, because I am not analyzing my own posts, because I know my alignment.
Hypocritical? Probably. Still doesn't change the fact that I noticed HIRVy doing it and it stood out to me.
Yes. I know. It was supposed to be tongue in cheek. No one was supposed to go "Oh... well, in that case Grak, carry on."
The point is that I don't notice when/if I use loaded language, because I am not analyzing my own posts, because I know my alignment.
Hypocritical? Probably. Still doesn't change the fact that I noticed HIRVy doing it and it stood out to me.
You might want to try and notice this language then...cause it truly does weaken your case against someone, such as H-guy; especially when the case you're presenting relies on him using loaded language.
Just a thought.
---
@Atl, i dont' think that was necessary. ZDS lying about that would be the dumbest thing imaginable (if enough people thought he was scummy, they'd vote him to 11, and if he didnt die then 2 other people would join on for him lying. )
As long as he doesnt pull a Sutherlands about claiming, there should be no issue.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
@ZDS And "I've been bad about showing Intent"? I've said from the beginning that the post was meant as a jest. So I think i've been pretty clear. But it's nice that you manage to make an accusation against me in the same post you're trying to defend yourself. Vote ZDS. For the record, i'm in favor of just a nameclaim first, (as i think the previous posters are), so don't go full claiming. (But i think you're smart enough to realize this).
I agree with this course of action for anyone that claims in this game, although I am not entirely sure how much just a name will help us decide.
I agree with this course of action for anyone that claims in this game, although I am not entirely sure how much just a name will help us decide.
Can it hurt? We're hardly on a deadline. Better safe than sorry. IF there's a chance a nameclaim will clear a person, then better do it this way.
Also, i can't believe you typed up the full ADWOD name for the quote. that's certainly longer than "loran" or "loran16". Sigh.
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Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Choi and Dujour Choi (played by Marc Gray) is putatively a bluepill who appears in the first movie buying illegal software from Neo, for which Choi pays $US 2,000 in cash. Choi, his latex-clad girlfriend Dujour (played by Ada Nicodemou) and several unnamed and unspeaking friends arrive at Neo's door just after he had been mysteriously told to "follow the white rabbit". When Neo notices that Dujour has a tattoo of a white rabbit on the back of her left shoulder, he accepts their offer to go with them to a goth club, where he is approached by Trinity. Going to the club and subsequently waking up late for work the following day set the stage for the rest of the film, though Choi, Dujour, and their friends are never seen or alluded to again.
Much of Choi's dialogue foreshadows the rest of the film: "I know. This never happened. You don't exist.", "You need to unplug.", and "Hallelujah. You're my savior, man. My own personal Jesus Christ."
These names would appear to be inspired by French language; "Choi and Dujour" resembles the French phrase "Choix du jour", meaning "Plate of the day."[1]
I can guess......mason? It's a really minor part mind you.
I don't know, i don't think we get much out of just the name claim.....i think now we'll take at least a partial role claim,
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
The wiki article is helpful although their command of French is only ok. "Choix du jour" literally translates into "Choice of the day." This was metaphorically applied to the plate of the day, or more formally, the chef's choice of the day.
I don't know exactly what to make of it in mafia terms. I'm going to mull over several things that sprang to mind for me before I speak further.
PPE: I don't like ZDS' naming of ADWoD as "loranscum." It would be like Axel attacking me and in return me calling him "Axelscum" (not sure if that happened here or on MT). Subtle accusations through use of language are something I will note.
I don't know cricket, but let's try this instead.... if in european football, I put a strike on goal, and the goalie stops it, is he "barging into" your goal?
It's keeper, not goalie. A goalie uses skates, pads and a stick and takes a black disk of vulcanized rubber to the head.
I understand where Grak is coming from with his "I'll talk how I want" spiel. I don't completely agree with it, but I do understand his point.
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Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
So, ZDS, you are claiming an extremely obscure character, who's also a Mason. And that it takes 2 fewer votes to lynch you than normal. And that your comment on Sutherlands vote-counting tendancies was sheer coincidnece.
Answer me this then:
1. Are you and your little Mason friend given complete assurances that the other one is not scum?
2. Is there something else that you are holding out on revealing? I'm not asking what you are hypothetically holding out on, yet, only if you are holding back something.
I'll Unvote pending those answers.
DYH unvotes too.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@AG, he's not being subtle....notice all his last posts prior to his wagon all directed at me.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I find this claim thoroughly unlikely. It's hard to believe that two such minor characters would even be in the game, and the whole 'it takes 2 less votes to lynch me' doesn't really make alot of sense. What is the flavor there? I'm also not impressed with how ZDS didn't originally state his role, no matter how obvious it might have seemed, but immediately 'confirmed' Loran's guess of it.
Lastly, the way that atlseal just ate it up also seems dubious.
EBWODP, Axel i don't think we need to know #2 just yet. Mason claim if 100% confirmed is good enough for me.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
EBWODP, Axel i don't think we need to know #2 just yet. Mason claim if 100% confirmed is good enough for me.
When I want your opinion, I'll ask fer it.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I find this claim thoroughly unlikely. It's hard to believe that two such minor characters would even be in the game, and the whole 'it takes 2 less votes to lynch me' doesn't really make alot of sense. What is the flavor there? I'm also not impressed with how ZDS didn't originally state his role, no matter how obvious it might have seemed, but immediately 'confirmed' Loran's guess of it.
Lastly, the way that atlseal just ate it up also seems dubious.
Personally, I see no reason to doubt a mason claim at this point in the game.
@DYH: I always feel the need to provide some explaination to my voting pattern
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
Actually, it's flawless logic. Since, there is no uncertainty about my alignment for me, and there is uncertainty about everyone elses.
Oh, I don't expect YOU to believe me, but I don't need you to in order to make my point. All that matters is that given the premise that I am a townie, the conclusion maintins it's validity.
We can worry about proving the premise later.
What what what? Your understanding that you personally are a townie mitigates all need to prove that you are a townie? What kind of crap logic is that?!
Also, I want to ask you that question I asked you at the beginning of the game again: If I say spoon boy doesn't exist, am I spoon boy?
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
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Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
As has already been stated by Xyre, your logic is crap.
Sincerely,
Sutherlands
1 arimnaes-Spoon
4 Carrion Pigeons- Atlseal, Hawkeye7, Loran16, Xyre
1 Cyan-Grakthis
1 Hvirfilvindr- Axelrod
3 Loran16- Athos, ZDS, Vampyr
1 Spoon-Wizzpig
1 Sutherlands- Dagger
3 xyre- Rafaelk, Cyan, arim
1 Vampyr-Arimnaes,
3 zedorkslipeur- alx2, Sutherlands, CP
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
Can't really post right now, but Suth i said i Unvoted cp a while aback....is there a reason why you forget to change that i should know about?
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
EBWODP, never mind, i got 5 minutes. I can post this at least:
Im not voting CP at the moment mr cyan. This is called an incorrect vote count. Though it is certainly noted that you are still deciding on two equally big wagons before you place your vote for good on one. IGMEOY CYAN..
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Mod had you as voting in his vote count, so I went off that.
1 arimnaes-Spoon
3 Carrion Pigeons- Atlseal, Hawkeye7, Xyre
1 Cyan-Grakthis
1 Grakthis-loran16
1 Hvirfilvindr- Axelrod
3 Loran16- Athos, ZDS, Vampyr
1 Spoon-Wizzpig
1 Sutherlands- Dagger
3 xyre- Rafaelk, Cyan, arim
1 Vampyr-Arimnaes,
3 zedorkslipeur- alx2, Sutherlands, CP
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
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Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Had I received a vote from one of the players whom I trust to be capable of rational thought instead of being voted off, like fadeblue, RafaelK or HAWKEYE7, I might have more cause to respond, since they would actually be backing up their vote with substance. carrion pigeons has not.
If you could translate your last analogy into cricket terms, I'd be much obliged, since I haven't got the foggiest idea what you're going on about.
Would anyone care to back Grakthis on this particular statement? I don't believe this statement of his to be true, but I'm willing to listen to other opinions.
With reference to my earlier statement, the one that caused you to make the statement above.
The 'negative reaction' I'm talking about isn't coming from the person being voted for, but from the rest of the players. If in theory Xyre or carrion pigeons (terribly sorry about using your names, but your voting patterns have been rather erratic lately) were to receive proof of the scumminess of X during the Night, how likely would they be of convincing the rest of us?
A by-product of law school, unfortunately. Make of it what you will.
Earlier on in the game, you threatened to vote for someone and continue voting for them for roleplaying. Not because you thought they were scummy, but because the way they posted irritated you. That's what I would call a poor use of a vote. Just because I have a problem with you (the general you) doesn't mean that I vote for you. I vote for someone if I think they're acting scummy.
Some voices (and votes) carry more weight than others. Yours is not one of them, no matter how much noise you make. Ideally, a vote represents that you feel suspicious about someone's behaviour, not that you harbour a dislike of them. I am not getting that sort of feeling from Xyre's or carrion pigeons' voting patterns.
My unvoting was in response to RafaelK's request for me to prove that I was capable of voting. My vote on loran16 at the time was not indicative of how I feel about him, scum-wise. As such, I had no reason to maintain my vote.
I'm not in a position to make a call right now. If I honestly believed that someone stood out from the rest of the players right now for being scummy, I would have laid a vote on them.
Further violations will result in death or replacement, as I see fit.
?
Arimnaes' use of "Mr" is not an automatic indication of townieness. LJustus kind of suggested that it was, because it would be unfair to scum to out an aspect of their role like that. I thought loran was entirely serious (and correct) in pointing out arim took advantage of exactly that line of reasoning in Court Mafia. I'm not sure why he's apparently not standing by that.
The "I don't like your style" peeing matches going on between various combinations of Grak, Hvir, Loran, Xyre, cp etc aren't really achieving anything beyond clogging the thread and really need to stop.
I'm not saying that's not true. I agree, Arim saying Mr. doesnt clear him at all. But im just saying that when i made the statement, it was meant as a joke. The meanign you are taking from it was, and is perfectly true, but when i made the statement that wasnt my intent.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Unvote, Vote Grak.
A on the retardspeak, please.
And Alx, for god sake use default font instead of FONT=BLACK. There's no reason to do so other than to annoy people that read threads in dark skin.
Why's he doing them then? Well, one would automatically think some kind of posting restriction, except, again, didn't do it in his first post. And what kind of posting restriction goes "you must do a vote-count in every post, except your first one."
So that was raising an eyebrow. But that's not the biggest eyebrow raiser. Because then there was this post from ZDS:
The thing about that post is when it was made. It was post #23 of the game. At that point, Sutherlands had made a grand total of 2 posts. One of them was post #6, which didn't have a votecount in it, and one was #10, which did.
So what would lead you to conclude that Sutherlands was "into vote-counts" at a point in the game where he had done exactly one, and had another post without one?
The fact that Sutherlands demonstrates that he really is into votecounts afterwards, appears to make this post of ZDS's slightly psychic.
I don't trust psychics.
Unvote;
Vote: ZDS
This doesn't look great for Sutherlands either, frankly. Easiest way ZDS could know about him being "into vote-counts" is if they were on the same team, if you know what I mean.
And considering az joked how he wanted to give a player a role making them post post counts in sin city and htat sutherlands generally posts a ton, i cant imagine him making it up. Not to mention the fact that az allowed him to stay alive despite editing a post....an edit made to fix a vote count.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
What are you disagreeing with exactly? What do you think I just said?
Unvote
Vote ZDS
@loran: I got the impression he's most suspicous of ZDS's claiming about Sutherlands being "into votes" when there was only one instance of that to begin with out of two posts by Suth at that point.
Oh huh...i thought you were saying suth was faking as well, but i see now you meant that the two of them could be mafia together. Suth could be mafia with that posting restriction.
Just ignore my point then. and yeah you're right, zds figured that out with too little info.
Hmmm, Unvote. I'd like to hear ZDS' response to both alx and axel.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
...
Is what an oafish and emotive human might say. Nevertheless, Mr. Axelrod, I believe you may have just given us a trenchant insight.
Unvote, Vote ZeDorkSlipeur. Those who mysteriously possess extra information are subject to summary deletion. You have been warned.
Don't think for a second that the Matrix will forget about you, Mr. Vampyr. We'll be back soon enough.
In any event, I'd like to hear what he says.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
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I've already mentioned I had a bad feeling about ZDS. Axel has presented good information. I also felt the same exact thing about Sutherlands when I saw the editted-in vote count.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
DYH votes ZDS
But that's probably enough votes for now.
1) The points against ZDS actually seem to have congealed into a lynchworthy case, to my amazement. We aren't even 300 posts into the game. Good job. Happy to add any votes when ZDS responds, assuming he can't diffuse the points against him.
2) @Hvir: In the US, the phrase actually is "On the contrary." Just so you know.
3) also @Hvir: try reading the past two days' worth of posts again and then tell me that my votes were meaningless. Also, I have made it very clear who exactly I wanted to lynch, even when they weren't the people I was voting for. Somehow, I rather expect that after a few people are dead, people are going to be grateful for the reactions I got out of people, while people are going to be annoyed by the ambiguity you brought to the discussion.
4) @Xyre: don't start calling people on rapid changes of playstyle until at least a week passes. My access allows me to be far more involved in the discussion on Tue-Thurs, and on Saturday.
Anyway, on to ZDS.
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Perhaps. But not to the extent of saying that the person is into votecounts.
This sounds like rationalization after the fact to me, much as with Xyre's explanation of why he'd think Spoon typo'd "we" for "I". This doesn't sound like something you'd think at the time. Who thinks this way- "hmmm, have I ever seen Sutherlands do a votecount before? He must be really into them in this game to do one".
I think Axelrod is right that you slipped- even better, a slip that gives away a second scum if Axelrod is right. And you were already suspicious anyway.
Claim. Now.
This part of your post REALLY bothers me. While votes have been flying to you quite rapidly, the combination of alx's PBPA and Axel's catch make the speed of this wagon more of a non-issue for me.
However, not only do you appeal to the speed of the wagon, but try a subtle deflection, and an insinuation that there are scum on your wagon. Combined with your general tone of "woe is me" makes me want to throw my support behind your wagon, with vote if necessary to at least get a claim out of you.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Xyre, my first reaction is to explain to you that you can't read. But seeing as how your friend sutherland (and apparently Loran too) doesn't get it either, maybe I didn't explain it very well. So let's try it this way instead:
an argument has the following rough form....
Premise + Logic = Conclusion.
Now, the logic in this case is sound (townies behavior is motivated to help the town) therefore if the premise is sound (I am a townie) then the conclusion is sound (My behavior, no matter what it seems like, is dedicated to helping the town).
Therefore, as long as AT SOME POINT IN THE GAME it is demonstrated that I am a townie (either by my death, or in my case by simply reading my role PM) then you (universal you, not neccesarily YOU) will know that my actions were clearly town aligned.
The point is, *I* know my alignment. Therefore, *I* can classify my behavior. I *cannot* classify *your* behavior.
Let's emphasize the key points here:
At no point did I say a word about proving anything to anyone and wheather or not that would be neccesary.
At no point did I suggest that this proves anything to anyone else right now
It's an effort in sophism. All I am saying is that I can trust my own motivations, but not anyone elses. When Is aid that the first time, someone questioned the logic on it. So I explained it out slowly.
Also, your question doesn't make sense to me. The answer to your question is "indeterminate."
I don't know cricket, but let's try this instead.... if in european football, I put a strike on goal, and the goalie stops it, is he "barging into" your goal?
Earlier in the game we were in the dicking around to be funny phase.
Also, I didn't place that vote. I just threatened to.
I don't know... my voice sure seems to be carrying some weight in this game so far.
Though, again, I am troubled by your notion that only SOME votes matter.
Sounds like the way a scum who is trying to pick and choose his battles would think, and not how a townie who is just posting honest analysis would think.
Then get in a position to make a call.
If you're not voting for SOMEONE, you're not playing mafia. Period.
Someone has to die. Make your opinion known and VOTE.
if that's what you think is going on here, you're not paying attention to the game.
What is going on here, is players figuring eachother out.
If you can't follow, then stop pissing in our sandbox.
Please actually read my posts before you respond to them, tks.
Also,
I was under the impression that ad hom was frowned on here. Are you telling me it's ok for me to call people retards? Because if so, this opens up an entirely new aspect of my game.
Second scummiest post in the game so far.
Axelrod might be onto something with you, but my problem with his analysis is that it basically requires you to be... let's say... less than bright. Not sure how I feel about that yet.
Vote ZDS. For the record, i'm in favor of just a nameclaim first, (as i think the previous posters are), so don't go full claiming. (But i think you're smart enough to realize this).
Okay, so we get it, you have confidence in your actions being townie as "you know you are town." the problem is that when you use such loaded language in a pbpa, the rest of us, who currently have no way to know your alignment, get a bit suspicious.
Your response to sutherlands' accusation about your pbpa (well wasnt a pbpa, but you know what i mean) seemed to be that "I'm a townie, therefore i can use loaded language, and you'll all just follow along with it since I'm a townie." Which is craplogic at its finest. Heck, even if you were a confirmed townie, we wouldnt want you using loaded language.
Even the most confirmed of townies can be locked into believing a person is scum, and i know its happened before where a townie is SOOO sure that his target is scum, that he makes a flawed pbpa without realizing it. And if that townie was confirmed, the town might follow along with the pbpa leading to a mistake. A loaded pbpa isnt a pbpa. It's not analysis. It's an opinion injected into a form where it looks like intellegent analysis of another's posts. Which is not helpful for the town.
Or he realizes its 13 to lynch, and you a player he doesn tknow is the only one accusing him (Hvir should know cp, so i dont know why he doesnt respect him).
Agreed. Votes are nice, H-guy. It helps to know where you stand, and considering you're (H-guy) not as frequent poster as some, it would be nice to know where that is.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Not to be a stickler, but what you said here is a comment on the situation
Yes. I know. It was supposed to be tongue in cheek. No one was supposed to go "Oh... well, in that case Grak, carry on."
The point is that I don't notice when/if I use loaded language, because I am not analyzing my own posts, because I know my alignment.
Hypocritical? Probably. Still doesn't change the fact that I noticed HIRVy doing it and it stood out to me.
You might want to try and notice this language then...cause it truly does weaken your case against someone, such as H-guy; especially when the case you're presenting relies on him using loaded language.
Just a thought.
---
@Atl, i dont' think that was necessary. ZDS lying about that would be the dumbest thing imaginable (if enough people thought he was scummy, they'd vote him to 11, and if he didnt die then 2 other people would join on for him lying. )
As long as he doesnt pull a Sutherlands about claiming, there should be no issue.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I agree with this course of action for anyone that claims in this game, although I am not entirely sure how much just a name will help us decide.
Can it hurt? We're hardly on a deadline. Better safe than sorry. IF there's a chance a nameclaim will clear a person, then better do it this way.
Also, i can't believe you typed up the full ADWOD name for the quote. that's certainly longer than "loran" or "loran16". Sigh.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I don't know what to make of this.
I can guess......mason? It's a really minor part mind you.
I don't know, i don't think we get much out of just the name claim.....i think now we'll take at least a partial role claim,
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I don't know exactly what to make of it in mafia terms. I'm going to mull over several things that sprang to mind for me before I speak further.
PPE: I don't like ZDS' naming of ADWoD as "loranscum." It would be like Axel attacking me and in return me calling him "Axelscum" (not sure if that happened here or on MT). Subtle accusations through use of language are something I will note.
@loran: only for you sweetie
It's keeper, not goalie. A goalie uses skates, pads and a stick and takes a black disk of vulcanized rubber to the head.
I understand where Grak is coming from with his "I'll talk how I want" spiel. I don't completely agree with it, but I do understand his point.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
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Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Answer me this then:
1. Are you and your little Mason friend given complete assurances that the other one is not scum?
2. Is there something else that you are holding out on revealing? I'm not asking what you are hypothetically holding out on, yet, only if you are holding back something.
I'll Unvote pending those answers.
DYH unvotes too.
@AG, he's not being subtle....notice all his last posts prior to his wagon all directed at me.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Lastly, the way that atlseal just ate it up also seems dubious.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
So why the filler text and not just an unvote?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
When I want your opinion, I'll ask fer it.
Personally, I see no reason to doubt a mason claim at this point in the game.
@DYH: I always feel the need to provide some explaination to my voting pattern