Interesting definition of opportunism, when I go back and read the post. Are you asserting that ZDS, as mafia, has some special need to get Xyre to answer questions? So we should make the assumption then that if ZDS is scum, then Xyre is not. Mostly. Kinda.
Maybe we should lynch ZDS to kinda clear Xyre? Unless of course ZDS isn't scum, in which case we just wasted our time.
This smells much like you distorting what he was actually saying. It holds that ZDS voted when it probably wasn't necessary to get Xyre to answer such a simple question. Doing something like that does feel like opportunism to me as well. Vote: carrion pigeons
Then again, we may as well be pressuring someone. We could do that one of two ways: either just randomly bandwagon someone until they crack and claim, and hope we get lucky, or else force someone to explain something questionable they've already said. Has anyone said anything that might need explaining? No, not really? Okay, I'm keeping my vote on Alx. Who's with me?
I would like to add that I hope you were being a least a little bit sarcastic here. There really is no reason to bandwagon randomly. Something always comes up for a legitimate bandwagon to form.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
Do you plan to extend this logic to the point where you can say that ZDS wants Xyre lynched (which is ludicrous, based on the post in question), or are you planning on moving in the direction that ZDS has some kind of ability/role-based need to be voting Xyre?
Do you plan to build an army of strawmen and use them to conquer the world?
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I find CP's defense of ZDS here to be unsettling. It is fairly abnormal to avidly defend someone else early in the game. Particularly, CP seems to do so more as scum than town(defending Azrael in Cartoon Mafia, for example).
I agree w/ Alx that ZDS actions are questionable thus far.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Errr, i hate this argument wizz. Not sure how much mafia you've played, but oftentimes certain especially vocal players will get defensive when accused for what they think are stupid and baseless reasons.
WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY? I'm a townie, all your arguments are crap.
Oh... wait...
I'd like to lynch either ZDS or Grakthis. The former because he's acting scummy and voted for Xyre, the latter because he voted for Xyre and is annoying. ZDS has more on him right now, so Vote ZDS
I find CP's defense of ZDS here to be unsettling. It is fairly abnormal to avidly defend someone else early in the game. Particularly, CP seems to do so more as scum than town(defending Azrael in Cartoon Mafia, for example).
I agree w/ Alx that ZDS actions are questionable thus far.
Do a little more research and I think you'll find that to be mistaken. I defend people all the time when the argument against them is stupid. And the point isn't to stop any wagon that may form here, either. I just want the reasons for the bandwagon to be sound. If we're going to have a random wagon, let's have it be genuinely random, eh?
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
So, what, then? Alx and Suth have done basically the same thing, unless they want to claim that they are seriously trying for a ZDS lynch here. Why is it scummy in the first place, and why is ZDS more scummy than Suth?
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
So, what, then? Alx and Suth have done basically the same thing, unless they want to claim that they are seriously trying for a ZDS lynch here. Why is it scummy in the first place, and why is ZDS more scummy than Suth?
That's pretty fancy with the votes there, bird man. Don't think that it means squat to me though. You know as well as I that tricks been done before. Makes me wonder why you'd flaunt it so openly.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Do you plan to build an army of strawmen and use them to conquer the world?
That was a really great line. I'll have to steal it somewhere
My, but it's been an active 24 hours. And cp has done the old "multi-voter reveal", which- interesting. Very interesting.
I would have thought the example of DotA mafia to be an excellent example of why it could be dangerous to reveal that too soon. If fade had been out as a multivoter on day 1, the scum would have won much much more easily by recruiting him! And the same would happen if the scum had some sort of ability copying role.
This game has, shall we say, an increased likelihood of replicating and/or recruiting mechanics?
If cp's town, and multivoter I admit is a role unlikely to start off as scum (unless it's a situation like DYH in Court Mafia, but that's easy enough to rule out on later days), then that's damn reckless is all I can say.
Xyre: I think my own point against you was a bit lost in the shuffle there, and I'd like you to answer me on this. Why would you think that Spoon's use of "We" was a mistake? What do you think he'd meant to say?
While I do think you were and still are being a little over-defensive, that's not necessarily a scum trait. Townies accused early on tend to act like that too, just as I think it's natural to be curious about Spoon. My problem with your post was saying that you wanted to see if he'd said "we" intentionally; I don't really see how Spoon could say it unintentionally, or why you'd actually think it was unintentional. It came off to me as an excuse to hide a real motive.
Xyre: I think my own point against you was a bit lost in the shuffle there, and I'd like you to answer me on this. Why would you think that Spoon's use of "We" was a mistake? What do you think he'd meant to say?
Good question.I figured it was a mere accident in logical process. For example (and this happens to me more often than I'd like to admit) Spoon could merely be thinking about something else while typing his response and using "we" rather than "I" because "we" was part of his original thought, and so on and so forth. I had no illusions that it was a mere mistake, but mafia being what it is, I felt the need to check. In retrospect, asking him any other question to get him to post again would have been the correct course.
As for other things... I don't think that the original post ZDS made that drew him into this (61) isn't very scummy, save for of course his tendency to bandwagon, which might be relevant. In that respect, his last post makes sense. I dislike a bit how he argues that my supporters are scum trying to look town, as many of them like atlseal joined my "side" when I was most suspicious to the town, which would make my supporters look suspicious as well. I agree with Spoon, however, that posts like arimaes', while flattering, are also endemic of a reverse-bandwagon of support. IGMEOY arimnaes.
There are any number of simple explanations for it, and I just wanted to make sure it was a mere mistake. His second post, besides just answering the question outright, confirmed this by using "I". Now please unvote me, both of you, this pseudo-wagon is utterly ridiculous. I have NOT fished at his role, I have merely clarified that he doesn't have a posting restriction. This was something that him posting a second time would clarify, because while using "we" once is an excusable mistake, a second time would be a posting restriction. Indeed, part of my strategy was to see how he responded to my question. The question itself wasn't important.
And your claim that I'm fishing the gimmick is absurd, and I'd really expect better from a player like you, Rafk. The fact that it's the gimmick is pure coincidence. Stop being irrational.
Raf wasn't claiming you were fishing the gimmick. He was saying you were BSing when you said you were just checking to make sure Spoon didn't say "We" by accident.
Good question.I figured it was a mere accident in logical process. For example (and this happens to me more often than I'd like to admit) Spoon could merely be thinking about something else while typing his response and using "we" rather than "I" because "we" was part of his original thought, and so on and so forth. I had no illusions that it was a mere mistake, but mafia being what it is, I felt the need to check. In retrospect, asking him any other question to get him to post again would have been the correct course.
And now you're really maintaining that it could have been an accident in his "logical process." Because, sure, people say "We" all the time when they mean to say "I." And when their typing it out, it's even more likely they might slip and hit the wrong keys. Yeah.
What do you even mean you had "no illusions" it was a "mere mistake." You just said you wanted to make sure it was. And his response "confirmed" it for you.
Looks from where I'm sitting like you overshot yourself in your first post, realized it looked bad to be asking such a direct question so early, and have been backtracking and trying to blow it off ever since.
Unvote;
Vote: Xyre
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I find CP's defense of ZDS here to be unsettling. It is fairly abnormal to avidly defend someone else early in the game. Particularly, CP seems to do so more as scum than town(defending Azrael in Cartoon Mafia, for example).
I agree w/ Alx that ZDS actions are questionable thus far.
A townie point for Cyan. From my experience of watching/playing with him, had he been scum, this post would have ended with a vote.
That's pretty fancy with the votes there, bird man. Don't think that it means squat to me though. You know as well as I that trick's been done before. Makes me wonder why you'd flaunt it so openly.
Silly me for following the heels of success. I have to say that I was more impacted by SG's role than by FB's, though. In any case, one nice thing about the role is that if I use it inappropriately, it'll likely be really, really, obvious.
I dislike a bit how he argues that my supporters are scum trying to look town, as many of them like atlseal joined my "side" when I was most suspicious to the town, which would make my supporters look suspicious as well. I agree with Spoon, however, that posts like arimaes', while flattering, are also endemic of a reverse-bandwagon of support. IGMEOY arimnaes.
Eww, craplogic. So if it's not arim you're trying to protect with this comment, who is it? And why? Actually, it probably is arim.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Axel: How have I been "backtracking"? I still stand by my question. It wasn't the best choice, for sure, for what I was trying to achieve, but it got the job done. I don't feel like there was anything scummy about my question, or my defensiveness.
I've actually been rather consistent in my argument. You ask me this question in response to my second post:
Quote from Axelrod »
You don't type "We" when what you mean to type is "I." This is the point Raf is making. So how is it an accident?
This question is answered by the forth post you quoted. And I'm surprised that you haven't experienced this phenomenon, dude.
For example, it's the kind of thing where, say, someone behind you is talking to you, you're processing their thoughts while at the same time typing or writing something, and you end up accidentally typing or writing a word they say? It's kind of like that - it's merely the downside to multitasking and whatnot. It's the problem intrinsic in continuous partial attention and whatnot. That's the assumption I've been working under since the first question. I have NOT backtracked and I have NOT been scummy and have NOT done anything to deserve your vote.
@Xyre : Why even bother asking ? Either it was an accident, in which case it has no meaning, or it was not an accident, in which case you were asking for information he may not want to (or rather, should not) reveal so soon. So why ask the question ?
It really had nothing to do with the question; it had more to do with getting him to post. If he was required to speak in the royal plural, so to speak, then he'd respond to my question in such a way. In retrospect, another, blunter question might have been less... contentious, but at least that question guaranteed he'd have to say something, and thus answer it definitively.
For example, it's the kind of thing where, say, someone behind you is talking to you, you're processing their thoughts while at the same time typing or writing something, and you end up accidentally typing or writing a word they say?
This happens to me an awful lot. My fiancee will be behind me talking about something while I'm reading the posts and making posts of my own. Usually I tune her out (luckily she's not here now to see me say so :D).
BUT....
There's such a thing as proof-reading. I do it because I will compose thoughts faster than I can type and often leave words out or move on to another topic before finishing the one I'm currently typing up. So I've made it a habit to preview post before submitting to try to correct as many errors as possible.
With Spoon's 3 word (or however many it was) post, it wouldn't take a single to realize the typo and fix it, if deemed neccessary. So either he did it on purpose, either for a reason or just because he wanted to. Either way, I find your possible explanation for what may or may not happened that lead to his post as you stretching things to cover your tracks and make yourself look less scummy. Unvote: loran16, Vote: Xyre
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Current Soul Collector count: 184
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
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Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Silly me for following the heels of success. I have to say that I was more impacted by SG's role than by FB's, though. In any case, one nice thing about the role is that if I use it inappropriately, it'll likely be really, really, obvious.
Actually, the game I'm referencing, and the one your act mimics the most is Court Mafia.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Vampyr: I myself almost never proofread my posts, because it rarely helps me. In any event, your argument that he did it on purpose strikes me as contradictory to his explanation provided in his second post, which went like this:
Quote from Spoon »
Just speaking, Xyre.
I hardly see the usefulness in his action, and I highly doubt that he was trying to do something sneaky, as you try to argue. The only reasonable explanation I can see is that he did it on accident and felt it was irrelevant, hence his answer. Which makes me wonder why any of you care. In any event, you're applying your own situation as "evidence" for how Spoon "did it on purpose", which is logically flawed, as argued above.
Overall, it looks to me like you're looking for a nice wagon to jump on and covering your own tracks with so-called "reasoning". This, to me, is more scummy than any of my questioning, defensiveness, or "backtracking", as Axel put it and you echoed. Unvote Spoon, Vote Vampyr.
To all of you who are voting for me: consider what you're voting for me for.
1) My question - there was nothing scummy about it. I was checking to make sure it was a typo, he responded, I got my answer. It was nothing more than a simple strategy. There was nothing scummy about it.
2) My "defensiveness" - anyone who's read my games knows that that's how I play. Besides, if defending yourself is scummy, then the game itself is flawed because no argument can be adequately responded to. See post 81 for my argument there.
3) My "backtracking", as Axel put and Vampyr shamelessly echoed - backtracking from what? My position has been consistent throughout, and anyone who actually read 139 would know that I've held the same position throughout. My argumentation is the same. The problem with straw men is that they burn easily, people.
And I overlooked this:
Quote from carrion pigeons »
Eww, craplogic. So if it's not arim you're trying to protect with this comment, who is it? And why? Actually, it probably is arim.
I'm agreeing with Spoon in that people there are people like arim who seem to support me merely because it is/was a townie thing to do, and thus are trying to buy townie points. However, I also argue that people like atlseal aren't acting in the same way as people like arim.
Okay. Ask me to confirm the vote on later days, and I'll be happy to. That should alleviate any concern, yes?
Are you telling me that you think I'm scummy because I multivoted? Because I don't see how.
I'm saying (which I said) it doesn't do a thing for me one way or the other. I've seen scum act the way you just did, and, as a townie, throwing around your multi-vote was, shall we say, a sub-optimal demonstration of ability.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
To all of you who are voting for me: consider what you're voting for me for.
1) My question - there was nothing scummy about it. I was checking to make sure it was a typo, he responded, I got my answer. It was nothing more than a simple strategy. There was nothing scummy about it.
2) My "defensiveness" - anyone who's read my games knows that that's how I play. Besides, if defending yourself is scummy, then the game itself is flawed because no argument can be adequately responded to. See post 81 for my argument there.
3) My "backtracking", as Axel put and Vampyr shamelessly echoed - backtracking from what? My position has been consistent throughout, and anyone who actually read 139 would know that I've held the same position throughout. My argumentation is the same. The problem with straw men is that they burn easily, people.
I might have to stop you right at point #1. You are sayin' now that you were "just checking to make sure it was a typo." And yet, for all the world, it certainly looked like you were asking him a direct question about his role. I don't shy away from direct questions when they're appropriate. I don't consider it scummy per-se. But when you tried to say it actually wasn't that, made me wonder. If you really thought it was a typo, you wouldn't have even cared about it. Fess up. You thought it might mean something significant, and you asked about it.
It's far from obvious. And you saying "there was nothing scummy about it" (twice) don't make it so.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I might have to stop you right at point #1. You are sayin' now that you were "just checking to make sure it was a typo." And yet, for all the world, it certainly looked like you were asking him a direct question about his role.
For reference, I said:
Quote from Xyre »
Spoon: Unless you're Queen Elizabeth, your use of a plural "we" strikes me as odd. Care to elaborate?
Now, unless I'm reading my own post incorrectly, I was asking a very general question. If I had said "Do you have a posting restriction?", then I could understand, but to me this looks more like "What's up with this?" I wasn't shooting for his role, I was just confused.
I don't shy away from direct questions when they're appropriate. I don't consider it scummy per-se. But when you tried to say it actually wasn't that, made me wonder. If you really thought it was a typo, you wouldn't have even cared about it. Fess up. You thought it might mean something significant, and you asked about it.
It's mafia; anything can be significant. I will admit that I asked him what was up with that, but I wasn't looking for any role information, if that's what you're insinuating. I figured it was insignificant but wanted to know for sure. If that's what passes for looking for role information, however, then apparently it's impossible to ask questions in a mafia game. There was NOTHING scummy about my question or its intentions, and thus, I again request you unvote me.
It's far from obvious. And you saying "there was nothing scummy about it" (twice) don't make it so.
Obviously not. You have no idea if I'm lying or not. I'm simply trying to present the best argument I can that I've done nothing wrong. That's the final thesis of my argument: there was nothing scummy about what I did.
I have a question for you: do you think I have backtracked from my original position, changed my stance on something, or anything to that effect in this game? That seems to be the argument presented in 136, but do you think that that argument is still valid (especially considering my responses in 139 and, well, every other post I've made since then)?
Oh, and speaking in hypotheticals now: what would I gain from my question? If he outright said "I have a posting restriction", then I've learned something about his role (this is assuming I did it to learn something), but what does that get me? There are no characters in the Matrix that speak that way, and certainly none who might also be represented by a gimmick. Overall, all I've received is information which pretty much becomes public domain anyway after he's posted a few more times. If I were mafia, there are many better questions than the one I asked for acquiring information, and I don't think I'm idiot enough to ask this question over those. The only conclusion I can reach is that I asked the question with intentions other than acquiring information that a scum can use. Therefore, I have done nothing a scum would do, and therefore am not scummy.
Perhaps because there are more than two players in this game ?
As far as I'm concerned, "Care to elaborate ?" = "Care to explain why you used a plural "we" ?" = "Care to give some info ?".
I don't think I'm the only one who thinks that way.
Let me ask again : Why did you have to ask ? Is it this important to know if he had to mention himself with a plural (or just made an error) ?
Why not simply wait for the next time he uses a first-person pronoun ? I don't get the reason for the rush (I also don't get how the town benefits from knowing whether it was intentional or not : at best they can try to guess his rolename, which isn't that helpful, and is something scums are better to do than townies, for the simple reason that they are a whole group sharing thoughts).
I was just wondering what was up. Perhaps I could have waited, but I didn't.
Look, son, it's normal to be curious about things. No one could blame you for that. You see a guy posting like he's got Multiple-Personality disorder, and you wonder "what's up with that?" I get it.
Problem is where you go from there. And where you would go if you met this person in real life is different from where you ought to go considering our current situation.
As a regular guy, you saying "Hey, what's up with that" wouldn't be a problem. It's normal. As an experienced Mafia player though, it is a problem. Because you know there's things that are best kept quiet.
But that's not even the most questionable part of it. The part that's sticking in my craw right now is where you come back and try to say "hey, I thought it might just be a typo. That's all. No big thing. I wasn't trying to get him to reveal anything about his role." It's like you're using the generalness of the question as a point in your favor, because you didn't narrow the question to something specific, designed to find out whether or not he could safely talk about it.
And then you saying you thought it might have just been an "accident." That's weak.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I'm going to go ahead and throw my vote on here. I don't think the whole 'we' thing is all that big a deal, but Xyre is showing signs of cracking that make me think something is up anyway. You don't normally make appeals to the people who are arguing your side unless you're worries that this is going to turn into something bigger than it is, and Xyre is showing some strange interactions with a couple players already.
I'm saying (which I said) it doesn't do a thing for me one way or the other. I've seen scum act the way you just did, and, as a townie, throwing around your multi-vote was, shall we say, a sub-optimal demonstration of ability.
So, your posts haved basically been one big IHGMEOY? Or an NFOS? I'm just following the example of past people with the role who seem to have had some success with it.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
As a regular guy, you saying "Hey, what's up with that" wouldn't be a problem. It's normal. As an experienced Mafia player though, it is a problem. Because you know there's things that are best kept quiet.
Ah.
I agree. It was a play mistake on my part to ask the question rather than wait to see what happened.
But that's not even the most questionable part of it. The part that's sticking in my craw right now is where you come back and try to say "hey, I thought it might just be a typo. That's all. No big thing. I wasn't trying to get him to reveal anything about his role." It's like you're using the generalness of the question as a point in your favor, because you didn't narrow the question to something specific, designed to find out whether or not he could safely talk about it.
Like I said, the point of it wasn't the question so much as getting him to post again. And again, in the end, it wasn't the right choice of tactics. My bad.
CP: I have no idea what you mean by "making appeals to people who are arguing your side" and how I've done that.
I'm not sure how I feel about the bandwagon on Xyre. On the one hand, it seems like the attacks on him are based upon absolutely nothing.
On the other hand, for the wagon being so flimsy, he is really, really reacting badly to it, which doesn't make much sense.
Mostly, his actions and reactions thus far remind me of how I acted at the beginning of Trek Mafia. Vote Xyre based upon that.
Dude, I react this way always. It's something I need to learn to avoid, for sure, but there's no way you can realistically argue that I'm acting abnormally. Magic Mafia is a prime example of how I can function in that way.
As for the rest of you, take his second sentence as the truth - the wagon on me is full of it. Indeed, I'm really, really getting bothered by how easily carrion pigeons and Cyan jumped on, providing little new evidence and just providing old arguments as "new" arguments. Cyan's post above especially bothers me for its lack of real rationality.
Dude, I react this way always. It's something I need to learn to avoid, for sure, but there's no way you can realistically argue that I'm acting abnormally. Magic Mafia is a prime example of how I can function in that way.
As for the rest of you, take his second sentence as the truth - the wagon on me is full of it. Indeed, I'm really, really getting bothered by how easily carrion pigeons and Cyan jumped on, providing little new evidence and just providing old arguments as "new" arguments. Cyan's post above especially bothers me for its lack of real rationality.
Unvote Vampyr, Vote Cyan.
Unvote Vote Xyre. Ummmm, thats what we call OMGUSing.....first vamp now cyan.
I mean, i really didnt think you were that scummy at first, but these last 2 votes are very questionable.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I'm not feeling so good about Xyre as I was just yesterday on the basis of the two recent OMGUS votes. However, I will defend the point that he's not backtracking. He has maintained the entire time that he was looking to define if it was intentional (Posting Restriction) or accidental- problem is- intentional doesn't necessarily = posting restriction, and to Axel's point, may not have been the wisest course of action to ask.
I'm still getting similar vibes from him here as in 24 mafia, though, so I'm not entirely sold. We'll see how it plays out, I guess.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Where on earth do you get that, Xyre? Who said that?
Sigh. I've been bandwagonned to death for my asking questions and being defensive (hence it being scummy, in the eyes of the town), but as soon as I point out how Cyan and Vampyr have merely been perpetuating the bandwagonning without actually benefiting the town, I get slapped with an OMGUS (hence justifying the bandwagon by attacking the votes against it). Unless their actions are justifiable, I don't deserve an OMGUS.
This smells much like you distorting what he was actually saying. It holds that ZDS voted when it probably wasn't necessary to get Xyre to answer such a simple question. Doing something like that does feel like opportunism to me as well. Vote: carrion pigeons
I would like to add that I hope you were being a least a little bit sarcastic here. There really is no reason to bandwagon randomly. Something always comes up for a legitimate bandwagon to form.
Do you plan to build an army of strawmen and use them to conquer the world?
Do you want to be lynched that badly?
Vote Alx2
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I agree w/ Alx that ZDS actions are questionable thus far.
Sorry, power trip. Probably not the best play. I'll leave there for now, though.
My actual point was that I don't see how you can make an argument that makes ZDS look scummy based on that post. If you can, more power to you.
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WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY? I'm a townie, all your arguments are crap.
Oh... wait...
I'd like to lynch either ZDS or Grakthis. The former because he's acting scummy and voted for Xyre, the latter because he voted for Xyre and is annoying. ZDS has more on him right now, so Vote ZDS
Vote Count
1 Abbey-Grakthis
1 Alx2- Carrion Pigeons
1 Carrion Pigeons-Dagger
1 Grakthis-Ljustus
1 Hawkeye7-Wizzpig
2 Loran16-Vampyr, Athos
2 Spoon-Xyre, Spoon
2 xyre-Rafaelk, ZDS
4 zedorkslipeur-Axelrod, alx2, arimnaes, Suth
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
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Do a little more research and I think you'll find that to be mistaken. I defend people all the time when the argument against them is stupid. And the point isn't to stop any wagon that may form here, either. I just want the reasons for the bandwagon to be sound. If we're going to have a random wagon, let's have it be genuinely random, eh?
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Anyone feel like actually explaining how ZDS is scummy for echoing Raf's call for an answer?
I don't think it's so much the echoing as it is the placement of a vote. He could have just as easily echoed the desire without voting.
vote arimnaes. Third vote on a wagon and such.
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Unvote, Unvote, Unvote, Vote arim, Vote arim, vote arim.
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WTF mate??? Wow, we really do need another vote count to sort things out...
1 Abbeygargoyle- Grakthis
4 arimnaes-Ljustus, Carrion Pigeonsx3
2 Carrion Pigeons-Dagger, Atlseal
1 Hawkeye7-Wizzpig
2 Loran16-Vampyr, Athos
2 Spoon-xyre, Spoon
2 xyre- Rafaelk, ZDS
4 zedorkslipeur-Axelrod, alx2, Arimnaes, sutherlands
8 Not Voting- Fadeblue, DYH, Hawkeye7, Abbeygargoyle, Cyan,
Pod, Hvir, Loran16
13 to lynch.
Unvote, Unvote
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Unvote
Has nothing to do with it, I've just gotten a scummy vibe from him.
Why am I scummy to begin with?
1 Abbeygargoyle- Grakthis
2 arimnaes-Ljustus, Carrion Pigeons
2 Carrion Pigeons-Dagger, Atlseal
2 Loran16-Vampyr, Athos
2 Spoon-xyre, Spoon
2 xyre- Rafaelk, ZDS
4 zedorkslipeur-Axelrod, alx2, Arimnaes, sutherlands
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
No, you require attention for being 4th on a wagon that has no basis.
You say you're getting a scummy vibe from him after 4 posts? Please explain. Or was that just a cop-out justification?
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For now though, Unvote, Vote: Sutherlands.
I have got a scummy vibe from him.
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That was a really great line. I'll have to steal it somewhere
My, but it's been an active 24 hours. And cp has done the old "multi-voter reveal", which- interesting. Very interesting.
I would have thought the example of DotA mafia to be an excellent example of why it could be dangerous to reveal that too soon. If fade had been out as a multivoter on day 1, the scum would have won much much more easily by recruiting him! And the same would happen if the scum had some sort of ability copying role.
This game has, shall we say, an increased likelihood of replicating and/or recruiting mechanics?
If cp's town, and multivoter I admit is a role unlikely to start off as scum (unless it's a situation like DYH in Court Mafia, but that's easy enough to rule out on later days), then that's damn reckless is all I can say.
Xyre: I think my own point against you was a bit lost in the shuffle there, and I'd like you to answer me on this. Why would you think that Spoon's use of "We" was a mistake? What do you think he'd meant to say?
While I do think you were and still are being a little over-defensive, that's not necessarily a scum trait. Townies accused early on tend to act like that too, just as I think it's natural to be curious about Spoon. My problem with your post was saying that you wanted to see if he'd said "we" intentionally; I don't really see how Spoon could say it unintentionally, or why you'd actually think it was unintentional. It came off to me as an excuse to hide a real motive.
I focus my gaze on one whose defence of xyre smacks of opportunism.
FoS: Arimnaes.
Good question.I figured it was a mere accident in logical process. For example (and this happens to me more often than I'd like to admit) Spoon could merely be thinking about something else while typing his response and using "we" rather than "I" because "we" was part of his original thought, and so on and so forth. I had no illusions that it was a mere mistake, but mafia being what it is, I felt the need to check. In retrospect, asking him any other question to get him to post again would have been the correct course.
As for other things... I don't think that the original post ZDS made that drew him into this (61) isn't very scummy, save for of course his tendency to bandwagon, which might be relevant. In that respect, his last post makes sense. I dislike a bit how he argues that my supporters are scum trying to look town, as many of them like atlseal joined my "side" when I was most suspicious to the town, which would make my supporters look suspicious as well. I agree with Spoon, however, that posts like arimaes', while flattering, are also endemic of a reverse-bandwagon of support. IGMEOY arimnaes.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
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Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Which was a direct request for information, not exactly "fishing" but not exactly a brilliant idea either. Then, when challenged for "fishing" says:
You don't type "We" when what you mean to type is "I." This is the point Raf is making. So how is it an accident?
That's what Raf asks, and this is what Xyre says:
Raf wasn't claiming you were fishing the gimmick. He was saying you were BSing when you said you were just checking to make sure Spoon didn't say "We" by accident.
And now you're really maintaining that it could have been an accident in his "logical process." Because, sure, people say "We" all the time when they mean to say "I." And when their typing it out, it's even more likely they might slip and hit the wrong keys. Yeah.
What do you even mean you had "no illusions" it was a "mere mistake." You just said you wanted to make sure it was. And his response "confirmed" it for you.
Looks from where I'm sitting like you overshot yourself in your first post, realized it looked bad to be asking such a direct question so early, and have been backtracking and trying to blow it off ever since.
Unvote;
Vote: Xyre
A townie point for Cyan. From my experience of watching/playing with him, had he been scum, this post would have ended with a vote.
Silly me for following the heels of success. I have to say that I was more impacted by SG's role than by FB's, though. In any case, one nice thing about the role is that if I use it inappropriately, it'll likely be really, really, obvious.
Eww, craplogic. So if it's not arim you're trying to protect with this comment, who is it? And why? Actually, it probably is arim.
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I've actually been rather consistent in my argument. You ask me this question in response to my second post:
This question is answered by the forth post you quoted. And I'm surprised that you haven't experienced this phenomenon, dude.
For example, it's the kind of thing where, say, someone behind you is talking to you, you're processing their thoughts while at the same time typing or writing something, and you end up accidentally typing or writing a word they say? It's kind of like that - it's merely the downside to multitasking and whatnot. It's the problem intrinsic in continuous partial attention and whatnot. That's the assumption I've been working under since the first question. I have NOT backtracked and I have NOT been scummy and have NOT done anything to deserve your vote.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
It really had nothing to do with the question; it had more to do with getting him to post. If he was required to speak in the royal plural, so to speak, then he'd respond to my question in such a way. In retrospect, another, blunter question might have been less... contentious, but at least that question guaranteed he'd have to say something, and thus answer it definitively.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
This happens to me an awful lot. My fiancee will be behind me talking about something while I'm reading the posts and making posts of my own. Usually I tune her out (luckily she's not here now to see me say so :D).
BUT....
There's such a thing as proof-reading. I do it because I will compose thoughts faster than I can type and often leave words out or move on to another topic before finishing the one I'm currently typing up. So I've made it a habit to preview post before submitting to try to correct as many errors as possible.
With Spoon's 3 word (or however many it was) post, it wouldn't take a single to realize the typo and fix it, if deemed neccessary. So either he did it on purpose, either for a reason or just because he wanted to. Either way, I find your possible explanation for what may or may not happened that lead to his post as you stretching things to cover your tracks and make yourself look less scummy. Unvote: loran16, Vote: Xyre
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Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Actually, the game I'm referencing, and the one your act mimics the most is Court Mafia.
Are you telling me that you think I'm scummy because I multivoted? Because I don't see how.
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I hardly see the usefulness in his action, and I highly doubt that he was trying to do something sneaky, as you try to argue. The only reasonable explanation I can see is that he did it on accident and felt it was irrelevant, hence his answer. Which makes me wonder why any of you care. In any event, you're applying your own situation as "evidence" for how Spoon "did it on purpose", which is logically flawed, as argued above.
Overall, it looks to me like you're looking for a nice wagon to jump on and covering your own tracks with so-called "reasoning". This, to me, is more scummy than any of my questioning, defensiveness, or "backtracking", as Axel put it and you echoed.
Unvote Spoon, Vote Vampyr.
To all of you who are voting for me: consider what you're voting for me for.
1) My question - there was nothing scummy about it. I was checking to make sure it was a typo, he responded, I got my answer. It was nothing more than a simple strategy. There was nothing scummy about it.
2) My "defensiveness" - anyone who's read my games knows that that's how I play. Besides, if defending yourself is scummy, then the game itself is flawed because no argument can be adequately responded to. See post 81 for my argument there.
3) My "backtracking", as Axel put and Vampyr shamelessly echoed - backtracking from what? My position has been consistent throughout, and anyone who actually read 139 would know that I've held the same position throughout. My argumentation is the same. The problem with straw men is that they burn easily, people.
And I overlooked this:
I'm agreeing with Spoon in that people there are people like arim who seem to support me merely because it is/was a townie thing to do, and thus are trying to buy townie points. However, I also argue that people like atlseal aren't acting in the same way as people like arim.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I'm saying (which I said) it doesn't do a thing for me one way or the other. I've seen scum act the way you just did, and, as a townie, throwing around your multi-vote was, shall we say, a sub-optimal demonstration of ability.
I might have to stop you right at point #1. You are sayin' now that you were "just checking to make sure it was a typo." And yet, for all the world, it certainly looked like you were asking him a direct question about his role. I don't shy away from direct questions when they're appropriate. I don't consider it scummy per-se. But when you tried to say it actually wasn't that, made me wonder. If you really thought it was a typo, you wouldn't have even cared about it. Fess up. You thought it might mean something significant, and you asked about it.
It's far from obvious. And you saying "there was nothing scummy about it" (twice) don't make it so.
For reference, I said:
Now, unless I'm reading my own post incorrectly, I was asking a very general question. If I had said "Do you have a posting restriction?", then I could understand, but to me this looks more like "What's up with this?" I wasn't shooting for his role, I was just confused.
It's mafia; anything can be significant. I will admit that I asked him what was up with that, but I wasn't looking for any role information, if that's what you're insinuating. I figured it was insignificant but wanted to know for sure. If that's what passes for looking for role information, however, then apparently it's impossible to ask questions in a mafia game. There was NOTHING scummy about my question or its intentions, and thus, I again request you unvote me.
Obviously not. You have no idea if I'm lying or not. I'm simply trying to present the best argument I can that I've done nothing wrong. That's the final thesis of my argument: there was nothing scummy about what I did.
I have a question for you: do you think I have backtracked from my original position, changed my stance on something, or anything to that effect in this game? That seems to be the argument presented in 136, but do you think that that argument is still valid (especially considering my responses in 139 and, well, every other post I've made since then)?
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Prove me wrong.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I was just wondering what was up. Perhaps I could have waited, but I didn't.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
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Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Problem is where you go from there. And where you would go if you met this person in real life is different from where you ought to go considering our current situation.
As a regular guy, you saying "Hey, what's up with that" wouldn't be a problem. It's normal. As an experienced Mafia player though, it is a problem. Because you know there's things that are best kept quiet.
But that's not even the most questionable part of it. The part that's sticking in my craw right now is where you come back and try to say "hey, I thought it might just be a typo. That's all. No big thing. I wasn't trying to get him to reveal anything about his role." It's like you're using the generalness of the question as a point in your favor, because you didn't narrow the question to something specific, designed to find out whether or not he could safely talk about it.
And then you saying you thought it might have just been an "accident." That's weak.
So, your posts haved basically been one big IHGMEOY? Or an NFOS? I'm just following the example of past people with the role who seem to have had some success with it.
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Vote Xyre.
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Ah.
I agree. It was a play mistake on my part to ask the question rather than wait to see what happened.
Like I said, the point of it wasn't the question so much as getting him to post again. And again, in the end, it wasn't the right choice of tactics. My bad.
CP: I have no idea what you mean by "making appeals to people who are arguing your side" and how I've done that.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
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Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
On the other hand, for the wagon being so flimsy, he is really, really reacting badly to it, which doesn't make much sense.
Mostly, his actions and reactions thus far remind me of how I acted at the beginning of Trek Mafia. Vote Xyre based upon that.
Dude, I react this way always. It's something I need to learn to avoid, for sure, but there's no way you can realistically argue that I'm acting abnormally. Magic Mafia is a prime example of how I can function in that way.
As for the rest of you, take his second sentence as the truth - the wagon on me is full of it. Indeed, I'm really, really getting bothered by how easily carrion pigeons and Cyan jumped on, providing little new evidence and just providing old arguments as "new" arguments. Cyan's post above especially bothers me for its lack of real rationality.
Unvote Vampyr, Vote Cyan.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Unvote Vote Xyre. Ummmm, thats what we call OMGUSing.....first vamp now cyan.
I mean, i really didnt think you were that scummy at first, but these last 2 votes are very questionable.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I'm still getting similar vibes from him here as in 24 mafia, though, so I'm not entirely sold. We'll see how it plays out, I guess.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
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Sigh. I've been bandwagonned to death for my asking questions and being defensive (hence it being scummy, in the eyes of the town), but as soon as I point out how Cyan and Vampyr have merely been perpetuating the bandwagonning without actually benefiting the town, I get slapped with an OMGUS (hence justifying the bandwagon by attacking the votes against it). Unless their actions are justifiable, I don't deserve an OMGUS.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia