Though that sig quote is ridiculously out of line. I have my suspicions on the source based on text colour, but then it seems out of character for that person, so...
I am the source for that quote. However, I stand by everything I said in that post. The forum awards have pretty much become The Gutter vs The Coffeehouse. The only difference between the two groups is that the Gutter is honest about it. They only nominated people for the awards when there were people nominated from here that didn't deserve that award. I have no problem with ya'll nominating and voting for people who don't deserve that particular award because that's what people tend to do. It's just a very junior high/high school thing to do, and I forgot that the majority of posters in here have that junior high mentality.
Now, about the "woman trapped in a man's body" comment. I said it in relation to the forum awards, but it's actually just the overall attitude. Ya'll do the same exact thing that you accuse a lot of other people of doing. You treat trans- people different from ordinary people. If someone says they're trans-whatever, they can automatically do/say whatever they want and they have the backing of pretty much everybody. However, if an ordinary male/female (mostly male) says almost the exact same thing, everybody jumps on them because of their "insensitivity."
Now with all of that said, am I sticking up for the gutter? No, I am not. I don't approve of either side nominating people who have no right being nominated for an award, but they're honest about it and that makes them the lesser of two evils.
I have been a member of this site since the "Great Migration of 2005" from MTGNews. I'm sure that many of you have been as well. At News and Salvation there were/are small groups of people that have come together through mutual interests to form what are known as clans. These clans usually consist of anywhere between 8-15 people, who then form a close knit bond with each other. This close knit bond unifies a team. The team would then work together and support each other in contests and activities. The closeness and exclusivity of the clan would be seen by others as something they wanted to be a part of. Not everyone was a member. Not everyone could be a member. Some people would form their own clan to be a part of the "Clan Forum". This created a healty competition. Sometimes friendly....sometimes not, but always fun. Since the creation of this Coffee House that you refer to as an "over-clan", that passion has died. It has become a 2-2 tie in soccer, "because we don't want to hurt the feelings of the other team, so everyone is a winner!!!"
Now....for most there is nothing wrong with that. It's nice that everyone feels included. But that isn't a clan. I read the opening page of your thread and I can't disagree more with your claim that these threads are spam free! You don't acknowledge everyone. There are people that post in here and never get a response. That isn't all welcoming....that's a high school clique that says "We're friends with everyone....but just don't talk to us when we're together." There are maybe six people that dominate the conversation in here and then ignore the rest of the posters who try to get involved. You even have an Admin in here spamming. And you can't tell me that post #1282 isn't complete spam.
I truely believe that this thread should moved out of the clan forums. It is nothing but a General Discussion thread that isn't involved at all with any of the clan activities on this site. I don't believe that it doesn't deserve a place on this site...I just think it doesn't belong here.
I'm not the only one with this opinion........
First of all, welcome to the Coffeehouse, johnny! I can't go into depth so I will attempt to be brief.
Clans are, as you say, close-knit groups, whereas you suggest over-clans should be somewhat more like a clan and a little less like what you see the Coffeehouse as. I'm inclined to disagree. The Coffeehouse belongs in the clans forum because it IS a group of close-knit friends. The difference between us and the typical clan is that our door is always open. Were were more picky, your post would have been called for deletion or just plainly ignored. It's also good that the clans forum has an over-clan that isn't Gaymers, where people can participate in a variety of General Discussion without it being a temporary or abstract thread like it would be in that forum--the Coffeehouse has a distinct identity. As for our rules--those are general 'guidelines'. Just because we're structured and function slightly differently from the usual clan doesn't mean we should be changed or moved.
And spam? Well, #1282 isn't spam in my eyes--it does contribute to the conversation with a little joke. We claim 'spam free', but that really isn't the case; there has been spam in the Coffeehouse, but it's been discouraged heavily and avoided at all cost.
And by your merely acknowledging the House with this post proves that the Coffeehouse has become a part of this forum, with weight to it, for good or ill. That being said, I can only reiterate what I first said; Welcome to the Coffeehouse. Feel free to talk openly.
Anyways, I have to get to classes, taa!
Sephiroth Owa: That song is indeed insanely hard..
Good morning everyone.... Welcome to Jonny, and I wish you'd stick around more often, Silent... And I'm just going to steer clear of the forum awards stuff cuz I'm a part of it, and i'd be lying if I said I didn't want to win, but I still endorse it, and while its not a great thing that everyone's wrapped up into it... Its still a fun thing every year.
I can't really say much else except to support what Sepiriel and Alacar said... You guys rock... Plus anyone else who posted about that topic, including you Jonny
In short, life is good, I'm in a good mood, just had a pretty good interview online, possibility of a job in Washington D.C. in a Federal position, somethin' library-related... woohoo!! I have another interview at 4pm today via the phone... I'm going to go prepare for that one, and meanwhile..
to Mr. Stuff for the 1300th post!
Also, thanks to DInfiltrator and Stuff for sayin' somethin' about my post... Hearing your words meant a lot.
Also, Jonny...its proof that people get posted over.. even I, the CoffeeHouse owner did! Its a fact of life, and I'm sure it can happen in other places on the site too
Thanks for caring enough to share your opinion with us personally.
This is precisely why I dislike the forum awards. They are supposed to be about acknowledging the best of the community and end up bringing out the worst.
I'm not versed in the clans by any means, but from what I've seen the Coffeehouse is on par with any other clan as far as content goes, and any negative behavior you can pin on the House is also exhibited everywhere else. For example, when Dissention came out I started posting in the Simic clan (seeing as I'm Kraj and all) and you know what? I was completely, 100% ignored. I hung around for a bit and tried to get involved in the conversation, and it never happened. And, the discussion itself was the exact same general conversation that occurs here.
If the Coffehouse undermines the cliquish identity of the other clans, well let's just say I won't shed a tear over that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
I truely believe that this thread should moved out of the clan forums. It is nothing but a General Discussion thread that isn't involved at all with any of the clan activities on this site. I don't believe that it doesn't deserve a place on this site...I just think it doesn't belong here.
I'm not the only one with this opinion........
Okay, that's your opinion. Now, a question: Why the hell should we CARE about your opinion? I don't mean that to sound overly sharp, but think about it. You don't post here, what goes on in here doesn't affect you in the slightest, nor does it harm or negatively affect the rest of the site in any way whatsoever- and more than one clan moderator and administrator has had ample opportunity to close it down, and they didn't. In fact, it was the opposite- when the policy on clans changed, both the House and the Gaymers were left as an exception, while many other overclans were not. If you wanted to be part of this part of the site, no one would take issue. If not, then why do you feel the need to come in and basically "lay it down" for us, eh? It isn't we wouldn't welcome your opinion, but it seems as if you expect us to be unduly concerned with the opinion of someone who is effectively a stranger voicing discontent about something by which no one here and no one on the decision-making staff has every been greatly bothered.
The whole "get rid of the House" attitude is just old, and it's not really a big secret. Most of us are more than aware that we don't have a lot of fans in other parts of the site, and I think for the most part, we don't really care. I mean, there are plenty of places on this site I don't feel benefit the site in the slightest, but if people enjoy and it doesn't bother me, I wouldn't feel greatly motivated to take action against that. I don't know what compels people to wander in here out of the blue and be like "I hate this place and YOU KNOW WHAT GUYS, THERE ARE LIKE, TONS OF OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN HERE LONGER THAN THE REST OF YOU THAT DO, TOO, JUST SO YOU KNOW!" What the hell IS that exactly? Is it some effort to spoil everyone's fun, or is it just some sort of attempt to intimidate everyone here, to try and create the illusion of some great, secret minority of grognard members that could pull rank at any moment and quash any activity of which they disapprove.
Secondly-
It is nothing but a General Discussion thread that isn't involved at all with any of the clan activities on this site.
There are plenty of clans that don't compete in clan activities. Furthermore, don't try and fool yourself into thinking ANYTHING that goes on in ANY other clan is anything other than just general discussion. It's freaking general discussion. When all of you sit around in other clans and talk about work and family and your latest deck and all that, it is nothing more than general discussion. The difference is that this is a community general discussion area, whereas most other clans are just dyed-in-the-wool cliques.
Certainly, the Coffeehouse has it's regular posters that talk more than others. It's just how social groups work, isn't it? Why wouldn't those that know each other better speak with each other more? When you go to school or work or whatever it is you do, do you intentionally go out of your way to speak to EVERYONE in the classroom or office or whatever? Or do you speak with those who you are friendly with and those you need to speak with on a day to day basis?
This created a healty competition. Sometimes friendly....sometimes not, but always fun. Since the creation of this Coffee House that you refer to as an "over-clan", that passion has died.
It's called a paradigm shift. Obviously, not everyone cares about creating "healthy competition". I sure as hell don't. And "I'm not the only one with this opinion."
I'm sorry if I seem like I am laying into you, but seriously- you come in here and say something like this, and expect people to just what- drop prone and dumb in the face of your illustrious history in the community? "Oh, since NEWS? Tell us more, oh great sage!"
Finally, let me ask you what you want- would you rather people just NOT post? Would you rather the community only have a place for YOU and your friends? Would you prefer that the rest of us just lurk quietly out of your line of sight, only popping up to fill proverbial seats when you need them? Because to me, it seems like if a site is going to grow and the community is going to get larger, you ARE going to see large groups of associated members form their own cliques and communicate in whatever venue they are given. I would think this would be a given, but apparently it isn't.
I am the source for that quote. However, I stand by everything I said in that post. The forum awards have pretty much become The Gutter vs The Coffeehouse. The only difference between the two groups is that the Gutter is honest about it.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
They only nominated people for the awards when there were people nominated from here that didn't deserve that award. I have no problem with ya'll nominating and voting for people who don't deserve that particular award because that's what people tend to do.
I'm sorry, but who the hell are you to tell ANYONE who they can nominate, and how in the world are you able to prove that any single person doesn't feel that the person they have nominated deserves what they were nominated for? Are you maybe called Silent Prophet because you have some sort of telepathic pipeline from God that gives you insight into the workings of all the minds of any given person, or are you just sort of making wild assumptions and throwing out accusations that do little more than ruin the forum awards for everyone involved?
Yeah, maybe this is junior high. If that's the case, then Silent Prophet, you are just the rude kid in the back of the class who is throwing spitballs and making fart noises, then.
Meanwhile, I won't even begin to delve into your random "white guy screaming about minority oppression" nonsense. And I do think it is little more than just nonsense, born of nothing more than good old fashioned prejudice and straight-guy squickiness.
If the Coffehouse undermines the cliquish identity of the other clans, well let's just say I won't shed a tear over that.
I won't either, but I might have a good hearty chuckle instead.
its proof that people get posted over
This happens everywhere else on the site. If this is suddenly so pressing an issue, then it's more than the Coffeehouse that needs to be re-evaluated.
Okay, that's enough. this rant has gone on for long enough, if you wanna keep bickering about it, SYM is ------> that way.
well, I'm back in school for another 10 weeks of grinding classes...wish me luck and such...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
@Charm_Master: Good luck, Have Fun and try enjoy things as much as possible
@Photon: you have such a nice way with words.... i aint the type of person who would say things quite that way (which is why i presume i get posted over :laugh2:), i tend to be nicer when i say things... which is why its reassuring seeing someone who can put that "slap in the face" tone in a post they way i wouldnt do but which i know is needed:D
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from »
Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
Everyone can talk about what they wish to, Charmmaster... If people have an opinion, they're more than welcome to share them, and we are also entitled to the right to defend ourselves So, just let it peter out, or just change the subject entirely Just don't tell people what to or not to say
Good luck on school though.... heh.. It feels weird to say that and not have to worry about that....ever again
EDIT: Ok, I'm going to go make myself a turkey sandwich....see you soon:)
Yeah, maybe this is junior high. If that's the case, then Silent Prophet, you are just the rude kid in the back of the class who is throwing spitballs and making fart noises, then.
That would make you, what? The person who bullies people who don't agree with you around or the person who is hypocritically rude themselves while talking about other people who are rude? But wait, it's ok when you're the one who does it because you have the words, "I'm sorry," in your speech.:rollout:
Not that anyone really cares, but in school, I was the person in the back of the room that was really shy and somewhat intelligent. Hence the name, Silent Prophet. I didn't talk much, but when I did, people listened because I was right the majority of the time. I'm not saying that I'm right now, I'm just giving a very brief history of why I chose this particular ID when I got it changed.
This is precisely why I dislike the forum awards. They are supposed to be about acknowledging the best of the community and end up bringing out the worst.
Don't be annoyed because 10 or 20 people in a community of hundreds decides to spoil it for everyone else.
Silent Prophet et. al: What is your goal in all of this if you don't want Coffeehouse to be part of clans? Where do you suppose it SHOULD go? I'm pretty sure I know where y'all are taking this but I want to know for sure.
And I do suppose I should be thankful that you brought it up to us first instead of skipping straight to Yukora or an administator.
Also, SP and Photon: Can we not get bitter QUITE yet? It's just started for pete's sake. Let's save it until someone decides to really get inane and calls for banning of members.
This is precisely why I dislike the forum awards. They are supposed to be about acknowledging the best of the community and end up bringing out the worst.
I'm not versed in the clans by any means, but from what I've seen the Coffeehouse is on par with any other clan as far as content goes, and any negative behavior you can pin on the House is also exhibited everywhere else. For example, when Dissention came out I started posting in the Simic clan (seeing as I'm Kraj and all) and you know what? I was completely, 100% ignored. I hung around for a bit and tried to get involved in the conversation, and it never happened. And, the discussion itself was the exact same general conversation that occurs here.
If the Coffehouse undermines the cliquish identity of the other clans, well let's just say I won't shed a tear over that.
Well, in defense of the simic (or sorta not), they are a quiet clan and could use a new inoculation of live vector, if ya know what I mean... That said, being part of a clan (as opposed to an overclan) is hard work. You actually have to do something, like submit card ideas and work a bit with Photoshop and read stuff...*guilty*
An overclan is all the idle social benefits of a clan, but none of the work. Sure, you can choose to work hard to make something for the overclan per se, but overclans aren't permitted to compete in card creation contests or themes or banners or whatnot AFAIK, so no actual work is required. And many of the Coffeehouse regulars have and still do a prodigious amount of actual work to promote ideas unique to the 'House. But what we value most is that we can talk about virtually anything, it's very much like a 24-hour Cheers where everybody knows your name. I feel closer to my mates here than at Simic, or Reign or any other particular clan themed on some outside theme. And the secret? Everyone can join. Anyone can become a Coffeehouse member just by being sociable for a while. It's not spam. You want to know the definition of spam? When you aren't allowed to post what you really mean to say to someone because it's too short, so you concoct a longer but equally inane and self-centered post just to meet or exceed a word count quota.
@Forum awards: Take thousands of (mostly) males ages 14-24. Add in a popularity contest based entirely on what people post online in a forum that's mostly anonymous. What do you get? A repeat of high school, basically. This is the age group at which popularity contests are serious business. Sadly, if you take them away, some decent posters would lose their only motivation to come here and participate at all. A few of the artists, world creators, card designers, puzzlers, modders, debaters, and rules gurus might actually be doing the right things for some of the "wrong" reasons. Losing their input will still hurt the site, all the same. And it's not all bad, seeking a little recognition online for a job well done or a talent you have. And because it's largely a democratic process, some talented people will not get the recognition they deserve, because someone else is more popular or dedicated to self-promotion. I'm not saying this is a good thing, because it lowers the quality of the site when decent posters and people with talent go elsewhere to get the validation and recognition they seek.
I honestly don't have a good suggestion. Maybe tie the awards to more objective things; instead of "Nicest member" give an award for "Humanitarian post award" or somesuch, so it can be linked to posts people appreciated best of all. That way the focus is on a person's quality of post and not their overall likability, which is highly subjective. I don't want to ever feel like I have to say "Get rid of awards, they're too divisive" because this is a matter of the community. Not my particular choice.
I don't see why anyone wants to move the coffeehouse to the gutter anyway considering its fair grounds considering we welcome anyone here and we try not to let anyone get singled out and there are alot of forums that do that. Also the reason why i like to share my legacy decks in here is because the coffeehouse has alot more of a respectful audience then anywhere else. Although another respectful group of people is probably my funk team for legacy.
Hows about the coffehouse moves to the gutter, it has the same level of conversation... I'm serious, transgender and general stuff like that is discussed a lot in the gutter, just from a different angle.
I still can't say what i'd love to say for fear of an infraction, however it's becoming more a good idea i must say
Yeah, it's pretty obvious what that angle is. Stop trying to be clever.
Why are you all posting here, exactly? Short of stirring up trouble, which I suppose has merits of its own to you, what are you hoping to accomplish?
I don't buy any of these claims that "tyrannical trannies" are getting all kinds of special favor by people in this community. That is worse than the claim that girls are naturally advantaged in forum polls, which isn't infeasible but is only loosely based on evidence. That most - not all - members of the Coffeehouse have a sympathetic attitude toward transgender people because they've been hanging around me for as long as the overclan has been in existence is far, far from a sign that there some kind of "transgender favor" in MTGS.
Silent Prophet is one person who regularly expresses his transprejudice ideas when he gets an opportunity, and it's not exactly something at which eyes get batted. Glurman, Jack, and a few other people who have been members of the Coffeehouse have also been quite vocally disapproving of the concept of transness.
If a relatively small number of members seem to be "nice" about it, this is hardly a monolithic shift of favor toward a group of people that is, both historically and currently, deeply maligned and persecuted. I'm not interested in hearing about how great it is to be a transperson because someone perceives a pro-trans sentiment in the Coffeehouse. Not to mention that the "favor" I supposedly get is in large part conceived because of an attribution error - the idea that the only reason anyone is friendly toward me must be because of being trans and cannot be for any other reason.
The claim that there is a double standard in favor of trans people here is conspirational, paranoid, and falls under examination. If anything, there is double standard to their disadvantage, as all manner of actions committed by "the transfolk" here meet intense and belligerent scrutiny, such as we are seeing now.
Considering that this would be very consistent with the way it is in the physical world, and the brunt of the complaints are coming from people who have been open about their transprejudice in the past, it's not too hard to come to a conclusion.
As for the Coffeehouse "dominating" the polls - it must first be assumed that the Coffeehouse is a concerted entity that makes unified decisions. The Coffeehouse is a large overclan with a number of members who are also very active in other parts of the site. That a number of them are on ballots is not suspicious or strange in any way.
Like it or not, people nominate and vote for people they like, not only because of favoritism, but because people have more of a tendency to see the merits and strengths of people they like. The very perception of "deserving" an award is almost always going to be tied to having a positive opinion about a candidate in the first place. It's not unfair bias, it's just how opinions work.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
Kids, kids... Have a The CoffeeHouse isn't going into the Gutter or anything like that... If we need to, we'll figure out a way to survive this madness..... No stress, eh? [/Alacaresque]
Well in all honesty i did post alot in the legacy forums at the begining of this year helping people with their decks but i stopped doing that because it took too much time alot of time I don't have anymore. Besides posting in here about legacy is very suiting for me since this is a friendly thread. Also I actually have had some good success with the decks as I make as well considering I had a german legacy player who got 20th place out of 175 players at legacy champs say that my wub control looks pretty good and it has the tools to be good against the format at large and ive done well in tournaments with uw control, funkbrew, and also my patriot control deck. Also the fact that belgerath nominated me for best legacy strategist was a huge honor and i thank him for that since he knows all about legacy just as much as anyone else.
Also its not like im a noob to legacy ive been playing the format since 2003. Ive also played all kinds of decks in the format as well.
Wow. I haven't had the pleasure of reading something this amusing in a while.
I must ask, you (Jonny) do realize what forums are for? Rhetorical question, I know, but specifically, that this is a clan, in spirit if not in name? I know people here better than I know some long-time friends in real life. People talk in forums. In groups even. That's why they exist, and that's what the Coffeehouse is, and why the whole clans forum is here at all.
This whole thing is absurd. Let's be honest - this not about the 'house and its legitimacy. This is about the forum awards. As such, it is ridiculous.
Good luck on school though.... heh.. It feels weird to say that and not have to worry about that....ever again
Doesn't it though? I still remember the feeling of leaving at the end of my senior year. It's disheartening, in a way, but it's also filled with a lot of promise. Just thinking about it gets me tempted to find some way to go back and get my masters. I miss college more often than is probably emotionally healthy.
@FLCL7777: Anime-Planet is an anime database and logging tool, much like ANIDB and AnimeNewsNetwork. They have a couple of nifty features, the most impressive being an auto-updating signature that showcases one's personal statistics. I took their sig and modified it to create the one I have now. Their database has a lot of holes in it, but the beauty of it is that anyone can create entries and submit them to the moderation staff, whereupon, if deemed good enough, they will be added to the database. The database itself has a recommendation feature that lists recommendations from other users below each title - another novelty that I've found very helpful. It's a great site, even if it does have a piecemeal feel at times.
I think one of the best examples of the passivity of the Coffeehouse is the Rookie of the Year voting. Both Fooly and I are eligible for the award, and he (I'm assuming here, correct me if I'm wrong) is a member of the House, and I (Not as often) frequent this forum. Now, if you look at the standings, I'm in 4th place and Fooly is in 3rd. Now with a push from the House, either one of us could be far and away 2nd (Nobody is catching YuanTi). But you won't see that happen, because of the individual opinions each member has.
You might say that the RotY race is a lost cause. Yeah, but there is enough time for a clan/person to send a message. So before you throw around accusations, of which I suspect are derived from sour grapes, understand that the House is not some shadowed organization bent on taking over the Forums. Rather, it is an amalgam of people with their own problems, ideas, and voices that like to converse with others from around the boards, many of whom live in other states and countries.
Summary: Don't be so quick to judge the House.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"He says he's always loved the work of Beethoven, and often thinks of him as a true O.G" 50 Cent's thoughts on Classical Music Check out the H/W List playa: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=80563 Member of the Syndicate
Syndicate Members:5
My AIM is Satriani744 (shocker, right?;))
It's a great way to get in touch with me for trades, or just chattin'. Just don't stalk me please.
Oh and I agree, Tyrannical Tranny is an awesome idea for a custom.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"He says he's always loved the work of Beethoven, and often thinks of him as a true O.G" 50 Cent's thoughts on Classical Music Check out the H/W List playa: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=80563 Member of the Syndicate
Syndicate Members:5
My AIM is Satriani744 (shocker, right?;))
It's a great way to get in touch with me for trades, or just chattin'. Just don't stalk me please.
Hehehe... You declare a very good argument Satriani... Sorry I didn't vote for you, btw.. Like you said, it was a tough race.
But you, and Fooly, and Zaphod are all heartily welcomed here, and I hope y'all know that.. *Hug!*
Thanks for stickin' up for the 'House, guys.. Some people just don't know what they're missing out on.. Pardon me if that sounded uppity....
As for Tyrannical Tranny..... Great custom indeed... and even though I'm looking for a custom to use, I don't think that one should be mine
Anyway, interview #2 went good... I was insanely nervous on the phone though... I'm not used to having phone interviews... I've never had one before... But yea, I'll find out within 2 weeks whether I have the job or not!
EDIT: I'm antsy waiting for Alacar to get back so that I can continue posting on the Half-Life campaign... Krash! Getcher butt in there too!
EDIT 2 : Special for whoever nabs the 1337th post!!
I think one of the best examples of the passivity of the Coffeehouse is the Rookie of the Year voting. Both Fooly and I are eligible for the award, and he (I'm assuming here, correct me if I'm wrong) is a member of the House, and I (Not as often) frequent this forum. Now, if you look at the standings, I'm in 4th place and Fooly is in 3rd. Now with a push from the House, either one of us could be far and away 2nd (Nobody is catching YuanTi). But you won't see that happen, because of the individual opinions each member has.
You might say that the RotY race is a lost cause. Yeah, but there is enough time for a clan/person to send a message. So before you throw around accusations, of which I suspect are derived from sour grapes, understand that the House is not some shadowed organization bent on taking over the Forums. Rather, it is an amalgam of people with their own problems, ideas, and voices that like to converse with others from around the boards, many of whom live in other states and countries.
Summary: Don't be so quick to judge the House.
You have a very good point here. I think one of the reasons some people are sour (for lack of a better word) towards the gutter but not the coffeehouse in the forum awards is that the "CoffeeHouse votes" so to speak, really are just a bunch of individual people voting of their own accord. While this is largely true in the gutter as well, there are many instances of the gutter saying "We can't let <person> win, vote for <other person>!" or "Let's make <person> win <award>" where it would be quite ridiculous if <person> won <award>.
However, I have noticed some people tend to vote in polls which, IMO, they have little business voting in (polls like <Format> Strategist of the Year when said person never goes to that format's forum and has no idea who 3 or 4 of the 6 members on the ballot are). While there are certainly members from all parts of the forum who do this, I've seen quite a few CoffeeHouse members doing it, and they almost invariably vote for other CoffeeHouse members (probably because those are the ballot members they know). I suspect this is the reason for much of the controversy surrounding the 'House and the forum awards, and I can't say it isn't deserved.
Anyway, interview #2 went good... I was insanely nervous on the phone though... I'm not used to having phone interviews... I've never had one before... But yea, I'll find out within 2 weeks whether I have the job or not!
Good luck with the job. Hopefully you're nervousness wasn't apparent over the phone.
Indeed, we need that little wizard with his funny hat! And in kind, I'm proud to revive an extraordinarily age-old joke from the archives of the CoffeeHouse Annals.... Alaaacaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrr!!!!!!
hehe...
But in serious business, my friend! *awards Krashbot the special doubly-baked byte-sized/flavored ! **
Congratulations... I just knew my little Dr. Geek Squad guy would get the
Hey guys. I've decided to come back and hang out for a bit. I guess I just can't resist that Coffeehouse scent...or something like that. Yeah, but I've been really bored with life recently, so I thought I come back and see what's going on over here. I miss you guys anyway.
So what's the topic of discussion around here nowadays?
P.S. I'm doing this month's FCC also, which will be cool, I guess. Plus, December's my lucky month.
Hey guys. I've decided to come back and hang out for a bit. I guess I just can't resist that Coffeehouse scent...or something like that. Yeah, but I've been really bored with life recently, so I thought I come back and see what's going on over here. I miss you guys anyway.
So what's the topic of discussion around here nowadays?
P.S. I'm doing this month's FCC also, which will be cool, I guess. Plus, December's my lucky month.
Im not sure really but its great to see you back strongbad! HOw is school are you straight Aing all of your IB classes? Well like always me and other people on the house wish you the very best. Also glad your doing well. *hugs* Have a good one strongbad and ill talk to you later.
Well, not quite straight A's, but close enough :p.
Ok, new topic of discussion: I know this sounds very general and obvious, but since I haven't been here in a while, what is everyone doing in their lives right now? Any new jobs, school, romance?
Oh, and to all the new people, hi. I'm strongbad. I used to be regular here before the summer, but I kind of disappeared. But I'm here now :).
You have a very good point here. I think one of the reasons some people are sour (for lack of a better word) towards the gutter but not the coffeehouse in the forum awards is that the "CoffeeHouse votes" so to speak, really are just a bunch of individual people voting of their own accord. While this is largely true in the gutter as well, there are many instances of the gutter saying "We can't let <person> win, vote for <other person>!" or "Let's make <person> win <award>" where it would be quite ridiculous if <person> won <award>.
However, I have noticed some people tend to vote in polls which, IMO, they have little business voting in (polls like <Format> Strategist of the Year when said person never goes to that format's forum and has no idea who 3 or 4 of the 6 members on the ballot are). While there are certainly members from all parts of the forum who do this, I've seen quite a few CoffeeHouse members doing it, and they almost invariably vote for other CoffeeHouse members (probably because those are the ballot members they know). I suspect this is the reason for much of the controversy surrounding the 'House and the forum awards, and I can't say it isn't deserved.
I'm in, I'm in. Now we just have to wait for Alacar...
Alacar, we need you!
1. That's an excellent point. As much as I'd love for the Coffeepeople to vote for me in my 3 categories, some of them have and some have not. That's alright, it's their opinion. Unlike from what I've heard about the Gutter, I'm not pressing them to vote for me more than any other candidate who wants to win.
2. Sorry I took so long guys.. I know it's looking fun! I can't wait for you two to start kicking ass.
As for nominations--I never planned to get into any contests.
Hey guys. I've decided to come back and hang out for a bit. I guess I just can't resist that Coffeehouse scent...or something like that. Yeah, but I've been really bored with life recently, so I thought I come back and see what's going on over here. I miss you guys anyway.
So what's the topic of discussion around here nowadays?
P.S. I'm doing this month's FCC also, which will be cool, I guess. Plus, December's my lucky month.
Hey SB! Good to see you. The topic at hand is the craziness of the Forum Awards.
I am the source for that quote. However, I stand by everything I said in that post. The forum awards have pretty much become The Gutter vs The Coffeehouse. The only difference between the two groups is that the Gutter is honest about it. They only nominated people for the awards when there were people nominated from here that didn't deserve that award. I have no problem with ya'll nominating and voting for people who don't deserve that particular award because that's what people tend to do. It's just a very junior high/high school thing to do, and I forgot that the majority of posters in here have that junior high mentality.
Now, about the "woman trapped in a man's body" comment. I said it in relation to the forum awards, but it's actually just the overall attitude. Ya'll do the same exact thing that you accuse a lot of other people of doing. You treat trans- people different from ordinary people. If someone says they're trans-whatever, they can automatically do/say whatever they want and they have the backing of pretty much everybody. However, if an ordinary male/female (mostly male) says almost the exact same thing, everybody jumps on them because of their "insensitivity."
Now with all of that said, am I sticking up for the gutter? No, I am not. I don't approve of either side nominating people who have no right being nominated for an award, but they're honest about it and that makes them the lesser of two evils.
Official Deschanel Stalker of The Called
Clans are, as you say, close-knit groups, whereas you suggest over-clans should be somewhat more like a clan and a little less like what you see the Coffeehouse as. I'm inclined to disagree. The Coffeehouse belongs in the clans forum because it IS a group of close-knit friends. The difference between us and the typical clan is that our door is always open. Were were more picky, your post would have been called for deletion or just plainly ignored. It's also good that the clans forum has an over-clan that isn't Gaymers, where people can participate in a variety of General Discussion without it being a temporary or abstract thread like it would be in that forum--the Coffeehouse has a distinct identity. As for our rules--those are general 'guidelines'. Just because we're structured and function slightly differently from the usual clan doesn't mean we should be changed or moved.
And spam? Well, #1282 isn't spam in my eyes--it does contribute to the conversation with a little joke. We claim 'spam free', but that really isn't the case; there has been spam in the Coffeehouse, but it's been discouraged heavily and avoided at all cost.
And by your merely acknowledging the House with this post proves that the Coffeehouse has become a part of this forum, with weight to it, for good or ill. That being said, I can only reiterate what I first said; Welcome to the Coffeehouse. Feel free to talk openly.
Anyways, I have to get to classes, taa!
Sephiroth Owa: That song is indeed insanely hard..
Like freeform roleplaying? Try Darkness Befalls Us
Ryttare Kelasin Luna Orelinalei
I can't really say much else except to support what Sepiriel and Alacar said... You guys rock... Plus anyone else who posted about that topic, including you Jonny
In short, life is good, I'm in a good mood, just had a pretty good interview online, possibility of a job in Washington D.C. in a Federal position, somethin' library-related... woohoo!! I have another interview at 4pm today via the phone... I'm going to go prepare for that one, and meanwhile..
Also, thanks to DInfiltrator and Stuff for sayin' somethin' about my post... Hearing your words meant a lot.
Also, Jonny...its proof that people get posted over.. even I, the CoffeeHouse owner did! Its a fact of life, and I'm sure it can happen in other places on the site too
Thanks for caring enough to share your opinion with us personally.
Magic Coffeehouse!
Come in, sit down, relax, get to know somebody!
Open Three and a Half Years as of October 19, 2009!
Banner by PurpleD and avatar/custom by Tanthalas
I'm not versed in the clans by any means, but from what I've seen the Coffeehouse is on par with any other clan as far as content goes, and any negative behavior you can pin on the House is also exhibited everywhere else. For example, when Dissention came out I started posting in the Simic clan (seeing as I'm Kraj and all) and you know what? I was completely, 100% ignored. I hung around for a bit and tried to get involved in the conversation, and it never happened. And, the discussion itself was the exact same general conversation that occurs here.
If the Coffehouse undermines the cliquish identity of the other clans, well let's just say I won't shed a tear over that.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
The whole "get rid of the House" attitude is just old, and it's not really a big secret. Most of us are more than aware that we don't have a lot of fans in other parts of the site, and I think for the most part, we don't really care. I mean, there are plenty of places on this site I don't feel benefit the site in the slightest, but if people enjoy and it doesn't bother me, I wouldn't feel greatly motivated to take action against that. I don't know what compels people to wander in here out of the blue and be like "I hate this place and YOU KNOW WHAT GUYS, THERE ARE LIKE, TONS OF OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN HERE LONGER THAN THE REST OF YOU THAT DO, TOO, JUST SO YOU KNOW!" What the hell IS that exactly? Is it some effort to spoil everyone's fun, or is it just some sort of attempt to intimidate everyone here, to try and create the illusion of some great, secret minority of grognard members that could pull rank at any moment and quash any activity of which they disapprove.
Secondly-
There are plenty of clans that don't compete in clan activities. Furthermore, don't try and fool yourself into thinking ANYTHING that goes on in ANY other clan is anything other than just general discussion. It's freaking general discussion. When all of you sit around in other clans and talk about work and family and your latest deck and all that, it is nothing more than general discussion. The difference is that this is a community general discussion area, whereas most other clans are just dyed-in-the-wool cliques.
Certainly, the Coffeehouse has it's regular posters that talk more than others. It's just how social groups work, isn't it? Why wouldn't those that know each other better speak with each other more? When you go to school or work or whatever it is you do, do you intentionally go out of your way to speak to EVERYONE in the classroom or office or whatever? Or do you speak with those who you are friendly with and those you need to speak with on a day to day basis?
It's called a paradigm shift. Obviously, not everyone cares about creating "healthy competition". I sure as hell don't. And "I'm not the only one with this opinion."
I'm sorry if I seem like I am laying into you, but seriously- you come in here and say something like this, and expect people to just what- drop prone and dumb in the face of your illustrious history in the community? "Oh, since NEWS? Tell us more, oh great sage!"
Finally, let me ask you what you want- would you rather people just NOT post? Would you rather the community only have a place for YOU and your friends? Would you prefer that the rest of us just lurk quietly out of your line of sight, only popping up to fill proverbial seats when you need them? Because to me, it seems like if a site is going to grow and the community is going to get larger, you ARE going to see large groups of associated members form their own cliques and communicate in whatever venue they are given. I would think this would be a given, but apparently it isn't.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
I'm sorry, but who the hell are you to tell ANYONE who they can nominate, and how in the world are you able to prove that any single person doesn't feel that the person they have nominated deserves what they were nominated for? Are you maybe called Silent Prophet because you have some sort of telepathic pipeline from God that gives you insight into the workings of all the minds of any given person, or are you just sort of making wild assumptions and throwing out accusations that do little more than ruin the forum awards for everyone involved?
Yeah, maybe this is junior high. If that's the case, then Silent Prophet, you are just the rude kid in the back of the class who is throwing spitballs and making fart noises, then.
Meanwhile, I won't even begin to delve into your random "white guy screaming about minority oppression" nonsense. And I do think it is little more than just nonsense, born of nothing more than good old fashioned prejudice and straight-guy squickiness.
I won't either, but I might have a good hearty chuckle instead.
This happens everywhere else on the site. If this is suddenly so pressing an issue, then it's more than the Coffeehouse that needs to be re-evaluated.
well, I'm back in school for another 10 weeks of grinding classes...wish me luck and such...
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
@Photon:
Good luck on school though.... heh.. It feels weird to say that and not have to worry about that....ever again
EDIT: Ok, I'm going to go make myself a turkey sandwich....see you soon:)
Magic Coffeehouse!
Come in, sit down, relax, get to know somebody!
Open Three and a Half Years as of October 19, 2009!
Banner by PurpleD and avatar/custom by Tanthalas
That would make you, what? The person who bullies people who don't agree with you around or the person who is hypocritically rude themselves while talking about other people who are rude? But wait, it's ok when you're the one who does it because you have the words, "I'm sorry," in your speech.:rollout:
Not that anyone really cares, but in school, I was the person in the back of the room that was really shy and somewhat intelligent. Hence the name, Silent Prophet. I didn't talk much, but when I did, people listened because I was right the majority of the time. I'm not saying that I'm right now, I'm just giving a very brief history of why I chose this particular ID when I got it changed.
Official Deschanel Stalker of The Called
Don't be annoyed because 10 or 20 people in a community of hundreds decides to spoil it for everyone else.
Silent Prophet et. al: What is your goal in all of this if you don't want Coffeehouse to be part of clans? Where do you suppose it SHOULD go? I'm pretty sure I know where y'all are taking this but I want to know for sure.
And I do suppose I should be thankful that you brought it up to us first instead of skipping straight to Yukora or an administator.
Also, SP and Photon: Can we not get bitter QUITE yet? It's just started for pete's sake. Let's save it until someone decides to really get inane and calls for banning of members.
Well, in defense of the simic (or sorta not), they are a quiet clan and could use a new inoculation of live vector, if ya know what I mean...
An overclan is all the idle social benefits of a clan, but none of the work. Sure, you can choose to work hard to make something for the overclan per se, but overclans aren't permitted to compete in card creation contests or themes or banners or whatnot AFAIK, so no actual work is required. And many of the Coffeehouse regulars have and still do a prodigious amount of actual work to promote ideas unique to the 'House. But what we value most is that we can talk about virtually anything, it's very much like a 24-hour Cheers where everybody knows your name. I feel closer to my mates here than at Simic, or Reign or any other particular clan themed on some outside theme. And the secret? Everyone can join. Anyone can become a Coffeehouse member just by being sociable for a while. It's not spam. You want to know the definition of spam? When you aren't allowed to post what you really mean to say to someone because it's too short, so you concoct a longer but equally inane and self-centered post just to meet or exceed a word count quota.
@Forum awards: Take thousands of (mostly) males ages 14-24. Add in a popularity contest based entirely on what people post online in a forum that's mostly anonymous. What do you get? A repeat of high school, basically. This is the age group at which popularity contests are serious business. Sadly, if you take them away, some decent posters would lose their only motivation to come here and participate at all. A few of the artists, world creators, card designers, puzzlers, modders, debaters, and rules gurus might actually be doing the right things for some of the "wrong" reasons. Losing their input will still hurt the site, all the same. And it's not all bad, seeking a little recognition online for a job well done or a talent you have. And because it's largely a democratic process, some talented people will not get the recognition they deserve, because someone else is more popular or dedicated to self-promotion. I'm not saying this is a good thing, because it lowers the quality of the site when decent posters and people with talent go elsewhere to get the validation and recognition they seek.
I honestly don't have a good suggestion. Maybe tie the awards to more objective things; instead of "Nicest member" give an award for "Humanitarian post award" or somesuch, so it can be linked to posts people appreciated best of all. That way the focus is on a person's quality of post and not their overall likability, which is highly subjective. I don't want to ever feel like I have to say "Get rid of awards, they're too divisive" because this is a matter of the community. Not my particular choice.
Love,
Cecilia
Why are you all posting here, exactly? Short of stirring up trouble, which I suppose has merits of its own to you, what are you hoping to accomplish?
I don't buy any of these claims that "tyrannical trannies" are getting all kinds of special favor by people in this community. That is worse than the claim that girls are naturally advantaged in forum polls, which isn't infeasible but is only loosely based on evidence. That most - not all - members of the Coffeehouse have a sympathetic attitude toward transgender people because they've been hanging around me for as long as the overclan has been in existence is far, far from a sign that there some kind of "transgender favor" in MTGS.
Silent Prophet is one person who regularly expresses his transprejudice ideas when he gets an opportunity, and it's not exactly something at which eyes get batted. Glurman, Jack, and a few other people who have been members of the Coffeehouse have also been quite vocally disapproving of the concept of transness.
If a relatively small number of members seem to be "nice" about it, this is hardly a monolithic shift of favor toward a group of people that is, both historically and currently, deeply maligned and persecuted. I'm not interested in hearing about how great it is to be a transperson because someone perceives a pro-trans sentiment in the Coffeehouse. Not to mention that the "favor" I supposedly get is in large part conceived because of an attribution error - the idea that the only reason anyone is friendly toward me must be because of being trans and cannot be for any other reason.
The claim that there is a double standard in favor of trans people here is conspirational, paranoid, and falls under examination. If anything, there is double standard to their disadvantage, as all manner of actions committed by "the transfolk" here meet intense and belligerent scrutiny, such as we are seeing now.
Considering that this would be very consistent with the way it is in the physical world, and the brunt of the complaints are coming from people who have been open about their transprejudice in the past, it's not too hard to come to a conclusion.
As for the Coffeehouse "dominating" the polls - it must first be assumed that the Coffeehouse is a concerted entity that makes unified decisions. The Coffeehouse is a large overclan with a number of members who are also very active in other parts of the site. That a number of them are on ballots is not suspicious or strange in any way.
Like it or not, people nominate and vote for people they like, not only because of favoritism, but because people have more of a tendency to see the merits and strengths of people they like. The very perception of "deserving" an award is almost always going to be tied to having a positive opinion about a candidate in the first place. It's not unfair bias, it's just how opinions work.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
Magic Coffeehouse!
Come in, sit down, relax, get to know somebody!
Open Three and a Half Years as of October 19, 2009!
Banner by PurpleD and avatar/custom by Tanthalas
Also its not like im a noob to legacy ive been playing the format since 2003. Ive also played all kinds of decks in the format as well.
Yes I know my grammar was bad in that paragraph.
Love,
Cecilia/Kevin
I must ask, you (Jonny) do realize what forums are for? Rhetorical question, I know, but specifically, that this is a clan, in spirit if not in name? I know people here better than I know some long-time friends in real life. People talk in forums. In groups even. That's why they exist, and that's what the Coffeehouse is, and why the whole clans forum is here at all.
This whole thing is absurd. Let's be honest - this not about the 'house and its legitimacy. This is about the forum awards. As such, it is ridiculous.
Now, moving on to more pleasant topics:
Doesn't it though? I still remember the feeling of leaving at the end of my senior year. It's disheartening, in a way, but it's also filled with a lot of promise. Just thinking about it gets me tempted to find some way to go back and get my masters. I miss college more often than is probably emotionally healthy.
@FLCL7777:
Anime-Planet is an anime database and logging tool, much like ANIDB and AnimeNewsNetwork. They have a couple of nifty features, the most impressive being an auto-updating signature that showcases one's personal statistics. I took their sig and modified it to create the one I have now. Their database has a lot of holes in it, but the beauty of it is that anyone can create entries and submit them to the moderation staff, whereupon, if deemed good enough, they will be added to the database. The database itself has a recommendation feature that lists recommendations from other users below each title - another novelty that I've found very helpful. It's a great site, even if it does have a piecemeal feel at times.
You might say that the RotY race is a lost cause. Yeah, but there is enough time for a clan/person to send a message. So before you throw around accusations, of which I suspect are derived from sour grapes, understand that the House is not some shadowed organization bent on taking over the Forums. Rather, it is an amalgam of people with their own problems, ideas, and voices that like to converse with others from around the boards, many of whom live in other states and countries.
Summary: Don't be so quick to judge the House.
Check out the H/W List playa:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=80563
Member of the Syndicate
Syndicate Members:5
My AIM is Satriani744 (shocker, right?;))
It's a great way to get in touch with me for trades, or just chattin'. Just don't stalk me please.
Is it time to unsheathe the banhammer already?
Oh and I agree, Tyrannical Tranny is an awesome idea for a custom.
Check out the H/W List playa:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=80563
Member of the Syndicate
Syndicate Members:5
My AIM is Satriani744 (shocker, right?;))
It's a great way to get in touch with me for trades, or just chattin'. Just don't stalk me please.
But you, and Fooly, and Zaphod are all heartily welcomed here, and I hope y'all know that.. *Hug!*
Thanks for stickin' up for the 'House, guys.. Some people just don't know what they're missing out on.. Pardon me if that sounded uppity....
As for Tyrannical Tranny..... Great custom indeed... and even though I'm looking for a custom to use, I don't think that one should be mine
Anyway, interview #2 went good... I was insanely nervous on the phone though... I'm not used to having phone interviews... I've never had one before... But yea, I'll find out within 2 weeks whether I have the job or not!
EDIT: I'm antsy waiting for Alacar to get back so that I can continue posting on the Half-Life campaign... Krash! Getcher butt in there too!
EDIT 2 : Special
Magic Coffeehouse!
Come in, sit down, relax, get to know somebody!
Open Three and a Half Years as of October 19, 2009!
Banner by PurpleD and avatar/custom by Tanthalas
You have a very good point here. I think one of the reasons some people are sour (for lack of a better word) towards the gutter but not the coffeehouse in the forum awards is that the "CoffeeHouse votes" so to speak, really are just a bunch of individual people voting of their own accord. While this is largely true in the gutter as well, there are many instances of the gutter saying "We can't let <person> win, vote for <other person>!" or "Let's make <person> win <award>" where it would be quite ridiculous if <person> won <award>.
However, I have noticed some people tend to vote in polls which, IMO, they have little business voting in (polls like <Format> Strategist of the Year when said person never goes to that format's forum and has no idea who 3 or 4 of the 6 members on the ballot are). While there are certainly members from all parts of the forum who do this, I've seen quite a few CoffeeHouse members doing it, and they almost invariably vote for other CoffeeHouse members (probably because those are the ballot members they know). I suspect this is the reason for much of the controversy surrounding the 'House and the forum awards, and I can't say it isn't deserved.
Good luck with the job. Hopefully you're nervousness wasn't apparent over the phone.
I'm in, I'm in. Now we just have to wait for Alacar...
Alacar, we need you!
Sweet, what kind of
Winner of the Weekly Signature & Avatar Contest Weeks 51, 59, 78, & 118.
I don't care if I was framed for murder if I only got a warning I would let it go.
hehe...
But in serious business, my friend! *awards Krashbot the special doubly-baked byte-sized/flavored
Congratulations... I just knew my little Dr. Geek Squad guy would get the
Magic Coffeehouse!
Come in, sit down, relax, get to know somebody!
Open Three and a Half Years as of October 19, 2009!
Banner by PurpleD and avatar/custom by Tanthalas
So what's the topic of discussion around here nowadays?
P.S. I'm doing this month's FCC also, which will be cool, I guess. Plus, December's my lucky month.
Magic Coffeehouse pwns.
CENT SPORTS!!
http://www.centsports.com/?opcode=94009
If you like sports or sports betting and you want a chance to win free money, you will love it.
Im not sure really but its great to see you back strongbad! HOw is school are you straight Aing all of your IB classes?
Love,
Cecilia
Ok, new topic of discussion: I know this sounds very general and obvious, but since I haven't been here in a while, what is everyone doing in their lives right now? Any new jobs, school, romance?
Oh, and to all the new people, hi. I'm strongbad. I used to be regular here before the summer, but I kind of disappeared. But I'm here now :).
Magic Coffeehouse pwns.
CENT SPORTS!!
http://www.centsports.com/?opcode=94009
If you like sports or sports betting and you want a chance to win free money, you will love it.
2. Sorry I took so long guys.. I know it's looking fun!
As for nominations--I never planned to get into any contests.
Hey SB! Good to see you. The topic at hand is the craziness of the Forum Awards.
Like freeform roleplaying? Try Darkness Befalls Us
Ryttare Kelasin Luna Orelinalei