You get your first job set after you beat the dwarven volcano. *FF3*
At least, I THINK you get them then, IM trying to remember if that was the first crystal...
I'm assuming that you guys are playing FF3 on the DS and not through ROM ports in an emualtor. The game looked interesting enough, but I don't own a DS, so i'd have to ROM it to really join the discussion.
But I am curious to know how negatively (or positively) not having a power curve would affect your enjoyment of an RPG. How much is your enjoyment of and RPG based on an increase in your characters' power?
On the scaling up issue, I believe the game should have either unlimited or virtually none. Assuming I understand Guild Wars correctly, it has very little leveling, and team-on-team strategy is the main focus. Personally, I would like to play a game with unlimited leveling, but thats probably because I like/am used doing games solo. That's one of the reasons I liked Dynasty Warriors because you get to beat up hordes of enemies by yourself.
On the power curve, it seems almost pointless in some games. You characters power up, but so do the monsters so what's the point?
If I had the computer power to run Guild Wars, I'd get it beacuse of that reason. I like games where you are all reletively equal and it depends on strategy and teamwork for victory...
Well, I do like seeing bigger numbers as I play a game, and I do enjoy being able to tell at a glance that my characters are more powerful than they have been. But at the heart of it, I enjoy games that are difficult and challenging all the way through, so I do prefer my power curve to be understated.
I'll use my current love, Rogue Galaxy, as an example. By the time you get to the end of the game your average party level is around 65. Big number, yeah. Well, at the end of the game I found myself challenged by (and thus enjoying) every single battle just as I had been in the beginning. My characters were much more powerful than I'd imagined they would be, but it never made anything too easy. I loved that =)
@FF3DS: You know, I enjoyed the game and I liked some of the additions to the DS version, but I've found that I simply can't pick it back up. I think it's because I played the NES version back in the day and they're too similar, I don't know. What I enjoyed most about the remake was the characters - before, all your main characters were just nameless Onion Kids, but now they each have a name and history. Also, Ingus is adorable.
On the scaling up issue, I believe the game should have either unlimited or virtually none. Assuming I understand Guild Wars correctly, it has very little leveling, and team-on-team strategy is the main focus. Personally, I would like to play a game with unlimited leveling, but thats probably because I like/am used doing games solo. That's one of the reasons I liked Dynasty Warriors because you get to beat up hordes of enemies by yourself.
On the power curve, it seems almost pointless in some games. You characters power up, but so do the monsters so what's the point?
Right. It seems like most games throw you in ever slightly tougher battles and if you didn't try to level up, the fight will be medium hard and if you leveld up, any fight in the game will be easy. So, you have to rush through the game to give yourself a challenge. I'd like to play an RPG where I wasn't so in control of how tough the game was going to be. There's nothing about an equal level of power and strategy that would detract from a game being enjoyable; it's probably a better approach than the copious leveling.
@ethersphere: I do also like seeing a noticable increase in the power level of my characters, but I really only like it for the sense of an epic battle and legendary power that it conveys. Not every game or every battle benefits from that epic power level effect. And there is something very disappointing about what I'll call the DragonBallZ Power Scale Problem(DBZPSP) ("I've never seen this level of power before!!! - He's growing even more powerful!"). The huge increases in power and the vast levels of damage become entirely arbitrary, divorced from the character's humble origins and the fights in the game that established how powerful mundane threats were (animals, other soldiers, etc.) DBZPSP involves a move that really contributes nothing to the game except for a sense of exaltation in the vast seas of power above the world of normal things. But not every game needs this kind of exaltation, but the DBZPSP has become the norm.
It seems like powerijng up in this way just gives an arbitrary sense of accomplishment. What have you acually done to affect the game's mechanics? You've made certain abilities better compared to the new enemies you're facing and others have become less effective because you haven't grown proportionally in them. Well, that could be just as easily accomplished without the vast increases in power.
I'm not calling all uses of the cosmic-scale power an example of DBZPSP. I'm just tired of the cosmic scale being treated as the norm in games.
True. There's never enough room in RPGS for naming characters properly. Even newer games (that I've seen) tend to constrain the character limit for the names. Seems like scripting is still trumping our freedom of expression there.
Well, most newer games have voice acting, so you can't rename the characters at all. Typically the name limits were set where they were in older games to avoid overflowing text boxes. Since a certain amount of dialogue or description has to fit into each one, putting a reasonable limit on character names makes it so that it's easier to ensure that no text box flows over or looks underfull.
I think I'm in the minority here, but I don't like renaming my characters in RPGs. I'm not really sure why, either, because when I was a kid it was normal for me to rename my characters all the time.
As a related, but not that related note, Tales of the Abyss is the only Tales of game where you can't rename your characters. I just realized that O_o;;
I'm a little with ya, ether--the only time I rename my characters in RPGs is if there's a male lead. Then he becomes Alacar
How predictably you.
I never rename characters anymore. I used to name characters after people I know, though- which lead Mom to be like "Why is that girl named *******" (Note: ****** = Mamelon's name)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[16:23] Alacar Leoricar: maybe if you do it'll make the porn more meaningful
Underfull? I've never had a game get on my case for naming someone "A" or "Q."
And the fact that I forgot about voice acting only goes to show how out of the loop I am when It comes to this generation RPGs for any system. That's probably because I'm a Nintendo Customer. And Nintendo gets no love from the RPG developers.
Nintendo doesn't get half the RPG love it deserves, no. I was so sad to know that as of the Gamecube's "death," there were maybe five good RPGs for it.
Thankfully the Wii is shaping up to be in a very different situation, though. Dragon Quest Swords looks like a great game =)
Underfull? I've never had a game get on my case for naming someone "A" or "Q."
Sorry, that was poorly explained. It would be awkward for a game to put a minimum name limit in place. That means that when they decide what goes in each text box, they need to make sure that the box doesn't look underfull or awkward if the characters are all given very short names, like the default names often are. If every textbox was alloted enough space so that things would fit even if the characters were all given, say, sixteen character names, then anyone playing with short names (like the defaults in many games) might notice that most of the dialogue boxes were underfull.
Hello everyone sorry i haven't posted in the great natural 20 clan for awhile. Just wanted to check up on your guys to see how everyone is doing.
I am still playing dq7 hehehe im at the tower of darkness right now getting ready to fight DarkDraco. Its a pretty fun game and i love the dragon quest series alot more then the final fantasy series but it used to be the other way around. Well see you all soon! Also you guys in the coffeehouse later! *hugs and blows kisses*
By the way its great to see a new natural 20 thread and also I really find the name really creative and innovative.
As for changing the names of players in a RPG, I can go either way. It doesn't really matter much to me, but I usually only change the name in games with no voice acting.
I liked the Gamecube. So what was it about it that made everyone go away? It came out before I got really into gaming so I guess i never knew much about it. Personally, I really wanted to get Phantasy Star Online Ep. I and II. I thought it looked great.
My love of games that involves more strategy than powering up makes me like D&D. With my playgroup, we just find the best strategical way to get over things, plus the endless possibilities.
"My playgroup? Let's see....My playgroup has got to be one of the only that in an 8-player match, one person doing one damage with Niv-Mizzet's ability leads to all out war that ends the game in the next 3 turns..."--Scott Giese
I never really change the names of RPG characters if they have defaults, primarily so that if I'm talking with someone about the game later, I remember what the characters' real names are. There's also the part of me that says "That's so-and-so's name. Why should I call them something different?" Particularly in mid-generation games, before voice acting eliminated that aspect of games but after the point in history where most console RPG characters developed actual personalities, it seemed strange to just be able to rename people.
Nintendo doesn't get half the RPG love it deserves, no. I was so sad to know that as of the Gamecube's "death," there were maybe five good RPGs for it.
Thankfully the Wii is shaping up to be in a very different situation, though. Dragon Quest Swords looks like a great game =)
Tell me about it. SNES was the last nintendo console to get any real RPG attention. They went through a drought of two full consoles as far as RPGs are concerned.
Sorry, that was poorly explained. It would be awkward for a game to put a minimum name limit in place. That means that when they decide what goes in each text box, they need to make sure that the box doesn't look underfull or awkward if the characters are all given very short names, like the default names often are. If every textbox was alloted enough space so that things would fit even if the characters were all given, say, sixteen character names, then anyone playing with short names (like the defaults in many games) might notice that most of the dialogue boxes were underfull.
I liked the Gamecube. So what was it about it that made everyone go away? It came out before I got really into gaming so I guess i never knew much about it. Personally, I really wanted to get Phantasy Star Online Ep. I and II. I thought it looked great.
I loved the GameCube AND the games made for it. It was just that not many good RPGs were made for it. I didn't have the finances to go for multiple systems and I don't regret choosing Gamecube. I just wish that it hadn't been a choice that involved sacrificing RPGs.
My love of games that involves more strategy than powering up makes me like D&D. With my playgroup, we just find the best strategical way to get over things, plus the endless possibilities.
I can see your point. Because there's a GM in charge of the encounters, you can never really level up to make D&D easier. Besides, the DM might shoot you if you just kept wandering over the same fields looking for owlbears for hours and hours.
But the ironic thing is that leveling and power scaling is still a pretty signifigant part of D&D. You do get to the point in the game where what were serious threatsat one level are now a total joke. I guess the Gm could avoid pointing that out as much as possible if it bothered players, but there's definitly a steep power scale in D&D.
I never really change the names of RPG characters if they have defaults, primarily so that if I'm talking with someone about the game later, I remember what the characters' real names are. There's also the part of me that says "That's so-and-so's name. Why should I call them something different?" Particularly in mid-generation games, before voice acting eliminated that aspect of games but after the point in history where most console RPG characters developed actual personalities, it seemed strange to just be able to rename people.
Yeah, I've said that I've never played through FF3 using the same names twice and I still sometimes have trouble remembering their names correctly. Plus, nomatter how I try, I can never remember the names of the Secret of Mana party members.
In games like Dragon Quest III and Final Fantasy Tactics, in which the characters in question don't have many lines or eminent personality traits, I like being able to choose my characters' names. It makes me feel like I'm designing my own characters in my imagination. However, in games in which the characters have defined personalities, I like keeping their names as they originally are.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
I use to rename all the characters, but this lead to difficulties when discussing the game (ie FF6, I renamed all the characters, so the only names I remember are Terra and Celeste, because I have their theme music on my mp3 player). Usually the main character, or any cool character (male), gets renamed Blane, Blane Firehand, Fierhad, Blane Fierhad, etc.
I use to rename all the characters, but this lead to difficulties when discussing the game (ie FF6, I renamed all the characters, so the only names I remember are Terra and Celeste, because I have their theme music on my mp3 player). Usually the main character, or any cool character (male), gets renamed Blane, Blane Firehand, Fierhad, Blane Fierhad, etc.
It's "Celes", actually.
Speaking of FF6, here is what I am doing this time through. I'm giving each character specific espers based on role and stat advancement.
Main Party:
Terra- Maduin, Crusader, Bahamut, Ramuh, Shiva: Maduin for MAG, Crusader and Bahamut for high level attack spells, Ramuh and Shiva to fill the main party's lack of Thunder and Ice magic (I don't plan on using Celes). Terra's Esper choice is suboptimal, but her natural magic makes up for it.
Sabin- Phoenix, Golem, Kirin, Zonaseeker, Gilgamesh, Odin: Sabin is built for a high STA and MAG score, since MAG is actually his most relevant stat. He also has a compliment of white magic, and support spells like Valor. Also, he has Odin for SPD, and as a result of Odin and Phoenix, he gains limited attack spells in Firaga and Meteor.
Relm- Valigarmanda, Siren, Cait Sith, Bismark, Leviathan: Relm is a highly backloaded character, exploiting Caith Sith's MAG bonus early game for a more powerful Sketch, and using Siren to pad her HP. Primarily, she is a status mage until the WoR, where she becomes a magic tank due to Valigarmanda.
Gau- Maduin, Lakshmi, Cactuar, Zonaseeker, Ifrit: Gau gains a blend of utility white magic and attack spells to use when he isn't raging. However, more importantly are the espers that boost his MAG and STR, which will allow his rages to be more potent overall.
Setzer- Catoblepas, Fenrir, Diabolos, Gilgamesh, Seraphim, Odin: Setzer has a huge Esper list. Most of them are to give him a full compliment of "arcane" style spells like Bio, Break, and Death, along with Banish. Seraph is merely a utility choice for the beginning of WoR to give the party another reliable healer.
Mog- Carbuncle, Quetzalli, Midgarsormr, Phantom: Mog is the definitive utility mage, with high MP totals, grey magic, and esper choices that are meant more for their summons than for their spells. He has Quake as a nice attack spell, though.
Strago- Phantom, Cait Sith, Unicorn, Alexander: Strago's esper level build is for MAG, like most characters (seriously, MAG is the only stat you ever need), but his spell choice is very narrow, mostly grey and white (although he does have Holy). This is because he has a full compliment of Blue Magic that will make him very valuable in a game with limited spell choices per character.
Shadow- Bismark, Raiden, Gilgamesh, Golem: Not really designed to gain spells, Shadow is designed more for speed and attack. He has a compliment of freebie, nigh useless elemental spells from Bismark (given for it's +2 STR bonus), and some supportive magic from Golem. However, end game, he will be mostly abusing Quick and Valor along with the Genji Glove/Master's Scroll.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[16:23] Alacar Leoricar: maybe if you do it'll make the porn more meaningful
Yeah, the Advance release of FF6 went through a lot of cosmetic changes. The script eas entirely redone and touched up where it needed it most, and the espers with weird names (Shoat?! WTF) had them changed back to their originals. All in all, it's much easier to take things seriously in this version. Although I'm much less eager to use Gau than I ever have been. Due to the GBA's random number generator being a ***** and always favoring low numbers, it's nigh impossible to find rarer encounters on the Veldt. I HATE THAT >_<:;
At least, I THINK you get them then, IM trying to remember if that was the first crystal...
thanks DarkNightCavalier for the sig!
My Trade Thread
But I am curious to know how negatively (or positively) not having a power curve would affect your enjoyment of an RPG. How much is your enjoyment of and RPG based on an increase in your characters' power?
On the power curve, it seems almost pointless in some games. You characters power up, but so do the monsters so what's the point?
Natural 20 MTGS Brigade Pages
Community Project
I'll use my current love, Rogue Galaxy, as an example. By the time you get to the end of the game your average party level is around 65. Big number, yeah. Well, at the end of the game I found myself challenged by (and thus enjoying) every single battle just as I had been in the beginning. My characters were much more powerful than I'd imagined they would be, but it never made anything too easy. I loved that =)
@FF3DS: You know, I enjoyed the game and I liked some of the additions to the DS version, but I've found that I simply can't pick it back up. I think it's because I played the NES version back in the day and they're too similar, I don't know. What I enjoyed most about the remake was the characters - before, all your main characters were just nameless Onion Kids, but now they each have a name and history. Also, Ingus is adorable.
Right. It seems like most games throw you in ever slightly tougher battles and if you didn't try to level up, the fight will be medium hard and if you leveld up, any fight in the game will be easy. So, you have to rush through the game to give yourself a challenge. I'd like to play an RPG where I wasn't so in control of how tough the game was going to be. There's nothing about an equal level of power and strategy that would detract from a game being enjoyable; it's probably a better approach than the copious leveling.
@ethersphere: I do also like seeing a noticable increase in the power level of my characters, but I really only like it for the sense of an epic battle and legendary power that it conveys. Not every game or every battle benefits from that epic power level effect. And there is something very disappointing about what I'll call the DragonBallZ Power Scale Problem(DBZPSP) ("I've never seen this level of power before!!! - He's growing even more powerful!"). The huge increases in power and the vast levels of damage become entirely arbitrary, divorced from the character's humble origins and the fights in the game that established how powerful mundane threats were (animals, other soldiers, etc.) DBZPSP involves a move that really contributes nothing to the game except for a sense of exaltation in the vast seas of power above the world of normal things. But not every game needs this kind of exaltation, but the DBZPSP has become the norm.
It seems like powerijng up in this way just gives an arbitrary sense of accomplishment. What have you acually done to affect the game's mechanics? You've made certain abilities better compared to the new enemies you're facing and others have become less effective because you haven't grown proportionally in them. Well, that could be just as easily accomplished without the vast increases in power.
I'm not calling all uses of the cosmic-scale power an example of DBZPSP. I'm just tired of the cosmic scale being treated as the norm in games.
Well, most newer games have voice acting, so you can't rename the characters at all. Typically the name limits were set where they were in older games to avoid overflowing text boxes. Since a certain amount of dialogue or description has to fit into each one, putting a reasonable limit on character names makes it so that it's easier to ensure that no text box flows over or looks underfull.
As a related, but not that related note, Tales of the Abyss is the only Tales of game where you can't rename your characters. I just realized that O_o;;
Like freeform roleplaying? Try Darkness Befalls Us
Ryttare Kelasin Luna Orelinalei
How predictably you.
I never rename characters anymore. I used to name characters after people I know, though- which lead Mom to be like "Why is that girl named *******" (Note: ****** = Mamelon's name)
And the fact that I forgot about voice acting only goes to show how out of the loop I am when It comes to this generation RPGs for any system. That's probably because I'm a Nintendo Customer. And Nintendo gets no love from the RPG developers.
Thankfully the Wii is shaping up to be in a very different situation, though. Dragon Quest Swords looks like a great game =)
Sorry, that was poorly explained. It would be awkward for a game to put a minimum name limit in place. That means that when they decide what goes in each text box, they need to make sure that the box doesn't look underfull or awkward if the characters are all given very short names, like the default names often are. If every textbox was alloted enough space so that things would fit even if the characters were all given, say, sixteen character names, then anyone playing with short names (like the defaults in many games) might notice that most of the dialogue boxes were underfull.
I am still playing dq7 hehehe im at the tower of darkness right now getting ready to fight DarkDraco. Its a pretty fun game and i love the dragon quest series alot more then the final fantasy series but it used to be the other way around. Well see you all soon! Also you guys in the coffeehouse later! *hugs and blows kisses*
By the way its great to see a new natural 20 thread and also I really find the name really creative and innovative.
Love,
Cecilia
I liked the Gamecube. So what was it about it that made everyone go away? It came out before I got really into gaming so I guess i never knew much about it. Personally, I really wanted to get Phantasy Star Online Ep. I and II. I thought it looked great.
My love of games that involves more strategy than powering up makes me like D&D. With my playgroup, we just find the best strategical way to get over things, plus the endless possibilities.
"My playgroup? Let's see....My playgroup has got to be one of the only that in an 8-player match, one person doing one damage with Niv-Mizzet's ability leads to all out war that ends the game in the next 3 turns..."--Scott Giese
Tell me about it. SNES was the last nintendo console to get any real RPG attention. They went through a drought of two full consoles as far as RPGs are concerned.
Ah. I see your point now.
I loved the GameCube AND the games made for it. It was just that not many good RPGs were made for it. I didn't have the finances to go for multiple systems and I don't regret choosing Gamecube. I just wish that it hadn't been a choice that involved sacrificing RPGs.
I can see your point. Because there's a GM in charge of the encounters, you can never really level up to make D&D easier. Besides, the DM might shoot you if you just kept wandering over the same fields looking for owlbears for hours and hours.
But the ironic thing is that leveling and power scaling is still a pretty signifigant part of D&D. You do get to the point in the game where what were serious threatsat one level are now a total joke. I guess the Gm could avoid pointing that out as much as possible if it bothered players, but there's definitly a steep power scale in D&D.
Yeah, I've said that I've never played through FF3 using the same names twice and I still sometimes have trouble remembering their names correctly. Plus, nomatter how I try, I can never remember the names of the Secret of Mana party members.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
Natural 20 MTGS Brigade Pages
Community Project
It's "Celes", actually.
Speaking of FF6, here is what I am doing this time through. I'm giving each character specific espers based on role and stat advancement.
Main Party:
Terra- Maduin, Crusader, Bahamut, Ramuh, Shiva: Maduin for MAG, Crusader and Bahamut for high level attack spells, Ramuh and Shiva to fill the main party's lack of Thunder and Ice magic (I don't plan on using Celes). Terra's Esper choice is suboptimal, but her natural magic makes up for it.
Sabin- Phoenix, Golem, Kirin, Zonaseeker, Gilgamesh, Odin: Sabin is built for a high STA and MAG score, since MAG is actually his most relevant stat. He also has a compliment of white magic, and support spells like Valor. Also, he has Odin for SPD, and as a result of Odin and Phoenix, he gains limited attack spells in Firaga and Meteor.
Relm- Valigarmanda, Siren, Cait Sith, Bismark, Leviathan: Relm is a highly backloaded character, exploiting Caith Sith's MAG bonus early game for a more powerful Sketch, and using Siren to pad her HP. Primarily, she is a status mage until the WoR, where she becomes a magic tank due to Valigarmanda.
Gau- Maduin, Lakshmi, Cactuar, Zonaseeker, Ifrit: Gau gains a blend of utility white magic and attack spells to use when he isn't raging. However, more importantly are the espers that boost his MAG and STR, which will allow his rages to be more potent overall.
Setzer- Catoblepas, Fenrir, Diabolos, Gilgamesh, Seraphim, Odin: Setzer has a huge Esper list. Most of them are to give him a full compliment of "arcane" style spells like Bio, Break, and Death, along with Banish. Seraph is merely a utility choice for the beginning of WoR to give the party another reliable healer.
Mog- Carbuncle, Quetzalli, Midgarsormr, Phantom: Mog is the definitive utility mage, with high MP totals, grey magic, and esper choices that are meant more for their summons than for their spells. He has Quake as a nice attack spell, though.
Strago- Phantom, Cait Sith, Unicorn, Alexander: Strago's esper level build is for MAG, like most characters (seriously, MAG is the only stat you ever need), but his spell choice is very narrow, mostly grey and white (although he does have Holy). This is because he has a full compliment of Blue Magic that will make him very valuable in a game with limited spell choices per character.
Shadow- Bismark, Raiden, Gilgamesh, Golem: Not really designed to gain spells, Shadow is designed more for speed and attack. He has a compliment of freebie, nigh useless elemental spells from Bismark (given for it's +2 STR bonus), and some supportive magic from Golem. However, end game, he will be mostly abusing Quick and Valor along with the Genji Glove/Master's Scroll.
It looks like there are temptingly minor variations in the remake of FF6!
* wamyc drools
Yeah, the Advance release of FF6 went through a lot of cosmetic changes. The script eas entirely redone and touched up where it needed it most, and the espers with weird names (Shoat?! WTF) had them changed back to their originals. All in all, it's much easier to take things seriously in this version. Although I'm much less eager to use Gau than I ever have been. Due to the GBA's random number generator being a ***** and always favoring low numbers, it's nigh impossible to find rarer encounters on the Veldt. I HATE THAT >_<:;
Go check it out already.
Incidentally, I think I'm going to be entering a Tales of Symphonia banner.
Joshie has made some nice banners before. I particularly like his current one. It'll be interesting to see what people come up with.
If not, sign me the hell up, yo!