On the flip side a healthy dose of self confidance can really turn people around. Honestly i attracted to people with a strong sense of self, they seem to be alot more honest about who they are and dont hide strange nuances of there perosonality.
Indeed, it does. Mikey has basically turned me around in that sense. Even though I'm still very self-conscious, I am WAY, WAY better than I was this time two years ago. Although, around Mikey [and more often, his family], I am myself. completely. It comes out here and there around his friends, but only certain ones.
In other news, I ate way too much today and my stomach is not happy with me. PLUS I'm out of Teddy Grahams, which is sad, because I still have lots of pudding left. [dunking the bears in pudding is great. :D] Our room is FREEZING. and i'm wearing a sweatshirt. brrrrrr.
I was on the edge of falling [as i call it. you might not understand, and that's okay.] earlier, because of the whole alcohol joke thing [i beat myself up too much]...and then Mikey...i don't know how he does it, i really don't, but he had me laughing and smiling more than i have the past two or three days. Last...march, i believe? he wrote a list in his planner of "reasons i love jo"...which I now have [bwhaha]...and I started my own list of reasons I love him. I mean, it probably sounds silly because if you know you love someone, why list the reasons?
But hopefully, I can turn this into a project. Because I don't have a whole lot of money, most things he gets are handmade--"sekrit projects". I have one started already for June, one to send him after easter, and perhaps this one. Plus the rest of the little list I've started, to keep track of them all. I'm quite creative, haha.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I know it seems that I don't care, but something in me does I swear.
[gaymers]
founder of the MTGS Forum Pirates
'tar/banner by R&Doom.
All the time. I feel self-conscious about everything about myself.
That makes me sound like I have major issues, heh. I don't, really. It's just that at college, I don't feel I can be myself, because I get harassed when I do.
Do I ever hear that.
As for me, I'm extremely self-conscious about my appearance, almost to the point where I can be obsessive. And frankly, I know I have major issues, and that it's not healthy. Sometimes I can be feeling great, and I'll look in a mirror and it will spoil my whole day. That's more than a little sad, but I have a hard time dealing with it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
I rarely look in the mirror, and when i do, it's because i'm washing my face or something. I don't like mirrors.
I'm self-conscious to the point where there's more than one reason I wear jeans and tshirts and hoodies everyday. [besides it being EXTREMELY comfortable] I don't like the way I look in anything else. To get me to dress nicely for something is an uphill battle that people generally lose.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I know it seems that I don't care, but something in me does I swear.
[gaymers]
founder of the MTGS Forum Pirates
'tar/banner by R&Doom.
I've always had image issues. That comes from my grandmother being a "You're going to be fat and die young!" freak even when my sister was a healthy skinny girl. If you're not too fat you're too skinny and don't eat enough. That's uphill both ways.
I'm learning to get over it. It took my grandma a LONG time to get over it.
Jody: I generally don't wear nice clothes because I don't have them. I'm always spending money on other things. The nicest stuff I have right now was bought for me as a christmas birthday present type thing from friends I hadn't seen in 6 months. That and I hate buying clothes when I'm working out and on the way down the scale. Belts can only do so much. You should see the sag in the booty of my pants from last year. I guess that's all the more reason why I should buy new pants instead of a new pair of shoes every couple of weeks hee.
But w/e. Sometimes I have the strength to say, "Eff it. i don't care what anyone thinks. I'm working hard and am comfortable with my progress." and other times I'm like, "Man. There are a lot of skinny *****es." *hang head. Droop shoulders. Shuffle feet.*
I don't really care too much about how I look and I certainly don't care about how other people think I look. I wear what's comfortable at the time, not necessarily what's fashionable. Wearing girl cloths make me look like someone's spinster 4th grade teacher. So I wear pants most of the time and my trusty red hoodie(it has a cool skull on the front too) as well.
My only vanity is my hair. I've been growing dreadlocks for the past 3 years and they're just past my shoulder now. I spend alot of time arranging my hair and playing with it too. People are always complimenting me on my dreads and asking me for advice. I honestly don't do much to it. I wash it once a week(soon to be twice a week in the warmer weather) and oil it once a week as well. The only bad things about my dreads are that they tend to collect bad smells and I simply can't dye them. My hair isn't very dark and so it seems perfect for going up a shade or two but dye just won't take to it. Lately its been turning a reddish sort of color but that happened before I got my dreads too so its probably not related. I think the red tone is a throwback to an ancestor who was a redhead or was of mixed ancestry(I've seen a few dark skinned black folks with natural red or auburn hair though).
blue: how could your grandma say such things? You're adorable! Real men have a few extra pound(for security) and so do real women. Though I do know a few perfectly healthy skinny people. My baby cousin(4 going on 40) is just this cute little waif who happens to have a high metabolism. She's a picky eater too and dinner with her is always entertaining. My best friend is also skinny and the guy eats enough for 3 or 4 other people(even when he hasn't smoked a bowl recently)! Conversely, I tend to eat less that normal people do but fat sticks to me like white on rice. *shrug*
Jody: I generally don't wear nice clothes because I don't have them. I'm always spending money on other things. The nicest stuff I have right now was bought for me as a christmas birthday present type thing from friends I hadn't seen in 6 months. That and I hate buying clothes when I'm working out and on the way down the scale. Belts can only do so much. You should see the sag in the booty of my pants from last year. I guess that's all the more reason why I should buy new pants instead of a new pair of shoes every couple of weeks hee.
I love buying new clothes and dressing up. Theres nothing like a new pair of jeans to make you feel damn sexy out at the clubs.
Thats reminds me... last weekend i went out wearing a brand new black short sleeve button up from guess and it got destroyed, i was so pissed. I was dancing on stage generally being molested by hands reaching up and grabbing at me (which i really didnt mind), then all of a sudden they ripped my damn shirt off. I was so pissed! I liked that shirt so much i endded up going back to guess and bought a new one. lol.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks for the Sig and Avatar Fogatog @EPIC GRAPHICS
Different topic: Do any of you ever give much thought to your looks? That is, is it something that concerns you on a regular basis? Do you ever feel self-conscious about your looks?
No, I'm gorgeous. Sometimes I realize that I'm wearing things that don't match. Then I realize that it doesn't matter that what I'm wearing doesn't match because I'm a guy and stereotypes work out in my favor for such things.
I like dressing up too, and I like buying new clothes. I like the way outfits look together, and I think I look better in them. But ultimately, I still always feel like I'm putting something pretty on something ugly to make it look better, and it just doesn't work out.
I guess, if you look at it objectively, I'm really not that bad looking . . . for a guy. Therein lies the complication.
Quote from GrassNinja »
I was dancing on stage generally being molested by hands reaching up and grabbing at me (which i really didnt mind), then all of a sudden they ripped my damn shirt off. I was so pissed! I liked that shirt so much i endded up going back to guess and bought a new one. lol.
Holy crap. Maybe you should avoid that club, sweetness.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
Oh, I understand, but I still disagree, because it appears you are making a blanket statement about a trait that someone has if he is a man, when being a man may or may not really lead to having that trait. Unless, of course, you are saying that all people wish for this kind of relationship, only in the case of men it tends to manifest itself through demonstrations of power. I do think there is some truth to the notion that yielding control has appeal to everyone, as can seizing control at times. Acting upon another person, and letting another person act upon you, are the very basic components of interaction, and I think that in some way the sex act expresses this, as it is very much a give-and-take exchange of actions upon each other. Yielding to another's actions may be as simple as being taken care of, comforted, held, kissed, etc, but in some cases it may be manifested as controlled or even abused, depending on how the person in question views it. And with most men, perhaps, the seductress-seduced relationship may seem to be the form of this dynamic that is most plausible or acceptable, at least in which a man can be in the "passive" part. It may be because it one of the only really acceptable ways in which a man can be "passive."
Well, I was making a generalization in reference to a general group not a "everyone fits into this box" generalization. I think it's extremely common and I was trying to contrast that to, for example, the rare exceptions that we were otherwise discussing. Certainly it's part of public definition.
But I don't think wanting to yield to such an advance is at all particular to being male or masculine, because I perceive it in women, too.
I've heard it said that it's because people tend to understand things better when they see them in terms of specifics; thus, most people look at specific situations and intuit a relationship of scale between that situation and more general truths. Gender ideals appear somewhat inured to insight as to how ridiculous or ideas can sometimes be, and I think that, at least in some way, this is owed to how nebulous and abstract gender even is. I think that much of what comprises gender is aesthetic, and what appears masculine or feminine to some people will only be met with agreement by people who are, at least in part, beholden to the same fundamental aesthetic. Surely there is some aspect of gender that is "objective," insitinctual - but what part that is is hard to say, because bundle as a whole is hard to define in any comprehensive way.
Then again, maybe those "objective" or naturally occurring aspects of gender are more appropriately categorized into sex as opposed to gender. Hormones dictate our behavior and perception to a greater degree than we imagine, and many of the traits associated with gender due to their personality or psychological basis really are just a chemical byproduct of physical sex. That depends, though, on how strict we are on qualifying what traits fall into gender and what fall into sex, however. I would say your hormonal trends have more to do with sex, but the implication of that on how we understand personalities could be significant.
Well, yes, because the intention of my description was that the typical male socialization process teaches them that it is more appropriate for males to be "heroes" or "villains," to use literary comparisons, because these are active characters who wield literal power. The only alternative is to be a victim or a side character, which are thought to be feminine roles. As such, being male does not necessarily make you into this kind of person - but chances are, people would have you try.
Indeed, there's definitely a cultural push, but I was referring to an internal delusion. Videlicet, the gay men who have the harshest opinions about effeminate men probably fall short of being "masculine" for their own standards. What you dislike in yourself you hate in others, as they say.
Yes. I think much of how femininity is traditionally defined is in a mysoginistic way. The very fact that weakness is associated with femininity, despite the truth that women generally have their own strengths, is telling, I think.
It's actually kind of amusing. Women have great endurance, for example, far beyond the average for men. And they can give birth.
English has a lot of sexist narratives in its structure and connotation of words (such as "strength" and "weakness") but they're quite a bit more subtle than the romance languages (for example, [I]el fuerte[/I] and [I]la debilidad[/I]). I think because of this we tend to not notice much of the way our words construe our stereotypes upon the genders, all the while strengthening the associations below the surface.
I do think, though, that along with the increasing acceptance of the "masculine female" figure, people are also beginning to think of [I]women[/I] per se as weak, though weakness is still attached to femininity. Perhaps we're entering into a Spartan mentality. I definitely see elements of it in our culture already.
Very much so! It's hard to tell where the objective truth of gender ends and the subjective imputations begin. My belief is that the first step is to just drop trying to force onto others what we perceive to be behavior appropriate for a certain gender. If people were allowed to behave and define their personalities by going with their nature, then it'd surely be easier to see what the inherent tendencies are among groups of men and women really are.
Maybe. Sexism is a kind of prejudice that will probably never be fully removed from society because of the inexorable link that the different sexes have to sexuality in the minds of, at least, heterosexuals. And I imagine it is that powerful sexual attraction that does lend to some sexist tendencies, perhaps at least in part due to the fact that for some people, their sexist notions are part of what they find attractive about the opposite sex.
Humans are a very difficult group to study because we have so much more bias towards ourselves than towards anything else in nature we might study. You'd almost have to have machines or an alien race do it, heh.
I hear that. I do think the fact that there are exceptions to our ideas about gender reveals something about the consistency of these ideas. However, the tendency appears to be to just tweak the norms and the ideals, rather than abolish them and change how we view gender in the first place.
People are always looking to validate their way of seeing the world. It's probably something of a psychological defense mechanism, because completely discarding your worldview on a seemingly insignificant discrepancy would probably push a lot of people way off their equilibrium. That may be a naturally good degree of safety in the wild, but it doesn't display a lot of adaptability and objectivity in the more nuanced way of society.
I always hear criticisms of science in that it's "always changing it's message." As opposed to a religion which has a constant set of beliefs that never change ever, I guess. Such criticisms always make me sad because that person is obviously never going to learn anything that contradicts what he or she has already accepted as true. Science "changes its message" because we find new information and it changes what we think. It's a self-improving system. Some people are so caught up with wanting to be "right" without all the work and willingness to question their beliefs. It's instant gratification.
I can't even tell you how many transsexuals (who you'd think would be the most understanding about it) cleave to traditional gender roles, and presume to force them onto others. It's really quite amazing, at times, what people have to say about your based on your sexual organs or your gender expression.
Ha.
In my experience, the queer community is way more intolerant than the heterosexual community. Some of the rudest, most unkind comments I've ever received were from other gay people, and I don't mean that they're just "meaner," but rather that they seem to care a lot more than straight people do about what gender traits you possess.
That sounds hugely over-simplified to me, but I admit that when I am certain kinds of depressive states I do feel a kind of clarity. This is also true in certain kinds of euthymia, as well. Part of it, I feel, may have to do with how most people are happy, and what makes them happy. Many people seem to associate with happiness some expectations, a sense of entitlement, that clouds their minds.
For me, there has always been a blur between sadness and happiness, and I've felt that this was somehow important, as if there is a great truth that would manifest when they come together. I still feel this way, and I think it's greatly influenced how I view being happy.
I'm much too escapist to ever really be happy. Nothing I want is of this world, so it's kind of a lost cause. I mainly try to be ok with it and see if I can't do something meaningful with my life.
Yeppers - it's negativism, which is still a type of comformity.
I guess that's why I'm "equal opportunity."
I used to be less discriminating about what sort of music I would listen to, but I've gotten to the point where I really think that I don't have [I]time[/I] to try to listen to [I]everything[/I]. It's really just exhausting.
The thing is, Britney Spears music doesnt have to be deep or all that entricate in order for it to be good. Good music makes you feel something and in britneys case it makes you feel good and want to go dancing, mission accomplished right. I find that some people dont enjoy certain types of music because they simple havent heard it the way it was meant to be heard.
I wouldn't say her music makes me feel good. I find it annoying sounding, really. There are some instances where I do think that music is quite literally bad (although sometimes it's intentional).
As for other types of music that elicit that sort of response; sure, they're not necessarily bad, but again - generally it's not what I'm looking for in music.
For example my best friend only liked underground Ska Punk and metal when we were young and absolutley hated any R&B. So i dragged him to a hip hop club in seattle and he endded up getting a crash course in dancing. Needless to say by the end of the night he loved Hip hop and ever since i equate people who hate hip hop with people who dont know how to dance.lol.
Some people just dont have the life experiences to relate to certain type of music and thats understandble.
Eh.
I liked pop, hip-hop and R&B when I was young. In fact, those were the only things I liked. I would say the sort of life experiences expressed by the music were more relevant to me in my childhood and early adolescence than they are to me now. My tastes just evolved, I guess.
Good points.
Overall i think people (younger people) get caught up in the stigma and cliques attached to certain types of music and generally disregard whether or not it's music they like or could get into. As I used to say in high school "Peer preasure's a B1tch!"
Definitely. I was really fortunate to never be forced into clique-think in high school (mostly because I didn't have any friends... :-/) and I really think it gave me an opportunity to explore different things broadly. By being the lone wolf, I found myself acquiring eclectic tastes and interests, and there's really not any one word you could use to categorize me (other than perhaps "geek" and "homo," though those are decidedly one-dimensional from my point of view).
I'm strongly against underage drinking. Well, drinking at all, actually. Alcohol eventually killed my grandpa, who I was VERY close to from a very young age. My uncle is an alcoholic who doesn't think he has a problem, and his problem has cost him three marriages, possibly a fourth. My mom is a recovered alcoholic [with the meds she's on, she can't drink anymore]. My grandma [the one married to the grandpa] was an alcoholic. And now she has problems. My favorite aunt [the one i can talk to about anything] is an alcoholic--but she "doesn't have a problem" either.
The boy next door [since I live in a dorm] drinks by himself, every day of the week. He's smart, he just drowns his problems out with booze. He breaks windows, trashes the common areas, and in general is obnoxious, rude, and quite crude when intoxicated. Like I said, he's smart. He's also kind, helpful, and willing to do almost anything for you if you needed it, when he's not drunk.
My boyfriend knows my stance on this, and even before he met me, he thought underage drinking was silly. He'll be of age before me, if it matters at all. Some of our mutual friends drink, but quite frankly, I just pretend they don't. I'd like to think they're better than that.
I'll be damned if I ever TOUCH alcohol, even after I'm of age. My 21st will be filled with cake and video games and the like, and absolutely no alcohol. I think it's disgusting, and it changes people. Not for the better. I can't stand the way it tastes [I was allowed to taste it at my graduation party. I regret doing so], I can't stand the way it smells.
He wasn't drinking during the game because he was by himself [I told him that if he HAD to drink before he was of age, to at least not do it alone], and didn't after because..
Well, honestly, I'm not convinced he WASN'T drinking after the game. Just by saying "i'm only half-kidding about the drinking part", he automatically made me suspicious after the game, when he was a LOT happier than I expected him to be. It was...well, wrong. Mikey is NEVER happy when the Buckeyes lose championship games. never. nothing i say or do makes him smile, even, when that happens. So to have him go "yay, i still love you and i still love being a buckeye, **** happens la-de-da!"...was wrong, in a way. way wrong.
I would be more upset, angry, and hurt if he started drinking underage than I have ever been with him before. I also may consider leaving him. I'm not controlling, but part of what attracted me to him in the first place was the "drinking underage is silly". He knows this, too. I don't feel very strongly about things [aka abortion, politics in general, pot being legalized], but this is one that I have VERY strong feelings about.
And this concludes my little stand-up-on-a-soap-box-and-preach post.
I come from similar backgrounds as you, and I used to be similarly opposed. I think I'm still opposed to drinking, but I've definitely softened my austerity about it. I really think that moderation is the key. For example, many of the kinds of meals I eat go well with wine, I think it's perfectly fine to enjoy a glass thusly. I would never drink to get drunk, however.
My point of view on alcohol is a bit... scientific. It's a poison, people. You're getting a high off of your liver trying to get that **** out of your system and brain cells dying. Imbibing poisonous substances in great quantities to alter your consciousness just seems... wrong to me. I guess for me, an accurate perception of reality and Truth is so important that I would never want to deceive myself in any way. But it is often the case that illusion is more pleasing than reality.
Not to sound snobby but im not self-concious at all, i know im hot. lol. really though, not much to be self-concious about, after watching 300 i wouldn't mind haveing a bigger chest but thats not gonna keep me from taking my shirt off at the beach or stop modeling.
There is a difference between being self confidant and being self delusional to the point of being some rude diva, im pretty sure that line starts and stops at, tact. I know a lot of people who act like a total ass to people becasue they think they are the sh*t. On the flip side a healthy dose of self confidance can really turn people around. Honestly i attracted to people with a strong sense of self, they seem to be alot more honest about who they are and dont hide strange nuances of there perosonality.
That's exactly the reason why I [I]don't[/I] go to clubs. I had a bad enough time in high school, with girls groping me in the hallways *shudder* and I'm really not a sociable person, so a club just sounds horrific. When I was young, everyone always called me ugly and I was convinced that it was true. Something about hitting adolescence changed because I started getting lots and LOTS of attention. I still kind of think of myself as at least average, but I realize that, at least, others seem to like what they see.
the rare exceptions that we were otherwise discussing
As a general rule, I tend to discredit the notion that exceptions to tendencies having to do with gender are really as rare as they are perceived to be. But I could be wrong. In any case, I get your point. *salute*
Then again, maybe those "objective" or naturally occurring aspects of gender are more appropriately categorized into sex as opposed to gender. Hormones dictate our behavior and perception to a greater degree than we imagine, and many of the traits associated with gender due to their personality or psychological basis really are just a chemical byproduct of physical sex. That depends, though, on how strict we are on qualifying what traits fall into gender and what fall into sex, however. I would say your hormonal trends have more to do with sex, but the implication of that on how we understand personalities could be significant.
I'm skeptical that hormones really provide that much of an influence overall. It seems ambiguous to me. When it come to libido and sensory experience, it seems so, and that can count for a lot. But many studies examine people who have been exposed to high levels of opposite-sex hormones, such as estrogen in men and testosterone in women, and don't find demonstrable changes in behavior because of it, except for significant changes in sex drive. However, the idea that a woman who has more testosterone (I've heard of that as a side effect of some medical treatments) starts acting like a man is largely erroneous, it seems.
Also, transsexuals who take hormones often don't become more feminine or more masucline in personality except in the cases of associated behaviors that are ostensibly linked to hormonal balance - FtMs, for instance, becoming more excitable and easily aroused, and MtFs describing feeling more calm. It seems to be a bit subjective, but there's some pattern to it, probably.
I don't doubt that hormones do have an effect on behavior, but I also think that there must be some deeper aspect of the biology or neurology that influence gender-associated behavior. I generally buy into the notion that it's oriented with neurological structure in some way, which is often used to explain transsexuality.
What you dislike in yourself you hate in others, as they say.
I see what you're getting at.
Maybe. Sexism is a kind of prejudice that will probably never be fully removed from society because of the inexorable link that the different sexes have to sexuality in the minds of, at least, heterosexuals. And I imagine it is that powerful sexual attraction that does lend to some sexist tendencies, perhaps at least in part due to the fact that for some people, their sexist notions are part of what they find attractive about the opposite sex.
I very much agree with that. I think that sexual feelings play a large part in how we view sex in general.
I always hear criticisms of science in that it's "always changing it's message." As opposed to a religion which has a constant set of beliefs that never change ever, I guess. Such criticisms always make me sad because that person is obviously never going to learn anything that contradicts what he or she has already accepted as true. Science "changes its message" because we find new information and it changes what we think. It's a self-improving system. Some people are so caught up with wanting to be "right" without all the work and willingness to question their beliefs. It's instant gratification.
Yeah. Science is supposed to change its message. And moreover, science actually works. Many religious proponents seem to have this romantic ideal of fastidious moral conviction in honor of absolute truth (into which they apparently have a special intuitive insight), though that basically amounts to functioning on preconceptions.
In my experience, the queer community is way more intolerant than the heterosexual community. Some of the rudest, most unkind comments I've ever received were from other gay people, and I don't mean that they're just "meaner," but rather that they seem to care a lot more than straight people do about what gender traits you possess.
I don't want to give you the wrong idea, though - the kind of transsexual I'm talking about isn't a majority. But you always have people like that, I guess.
I'm much too escapist to ever really be happy. Nothing I want is of this world, so it's kind of a lost cause. I mainly try to be ok with it and see if I can't do something meaningful with my life.
I hear you.
I used to be less discriminating about what sort of music I would listen to, but I've gotten to the point where I really think that I don't have time to try to listen to everything. It's really just exhausting.
I think in my case it's less that I listen to everything, and more that I listen to anything. If I hear something in passing and I like it, I'll add it to a playlist or new CD. I don't often go looking for new music anymore, though.
I was really fortunate to never be forced into clique-think in high school (mostly because I didn't have any friends... :-/) and I really think it gave me an opportunity to explore different things broadly. By being the lone wolf, I found myself acquiring eclectic tastes and interests, and there's really not any one word you could use to categorize me (other than perhaps "geek" and "homo," though those are decidedly one-dimensional from my point of view).
I'm with you there! I was the same way, basically.
My point of view on alcohol is a bit... scientific. It's a poison, people. You're getting a high off of your liver trying to get that **** out of your system and brain cells dying. Imbibing poisonous substances in great quantities to alter your consciousness just seems... wrong to me. I guess for me, an accurate perception of reality and Truth is so important that I would never want to deceive myself in any way. But it is often the case that illusion is more pleasing than reality.
Hee hee. Yep. I generally like alcohol for the taste (which means I only like a few kinds), and once you start getting inebriated, your experience of taste just starts faltering anyway, and it's beyond time to stop.
That's exactly the reason why I don't go to clubs. I had a bad enough time in high school, with girls groping me in the hallways *shudder* and I'm really not a sociable person, so a club just sounds horrific. When I was young, everyone always called me ugly and I was convinced that it was true. Something about hitting adolescence changed because I started getting lots and LOTS of attention. I still kind of think of myself as at least average, but I realize that, at least, others seem to like what they see.
That really sounds like a mixed bag. I sometimes wonder if it's maybe true that I "let" myself be ugly, or unattractive, to ward off attention from girls. Or maybe not, who knows. Either way, I guess, looking like an attractive guy for me would only be marginally better than looking like an unattractive one.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
English has a lot of sexist narratives in its structure and connotation of words (such as "strength" and "weakness") but they're quite a bit more subtle than the romance languages (for example, el fuerte and la debilidad). I think because of this we tend to not notice much of the way our words construe our stereotypes upon the genders, all the while strengthening the associations below the surface.
I would be wary of characterizing languages with grammatical gender as being more sexist than English. There is likely to be sexism in their language, but you have to be careful.
It is easy to handpick words that make it seem that way, simply because you can pick out a positive word that is in a grammatical context in which it is masculine, and a negative word in a context that is feminine.
So, yes, debilidad (weakness) is feminine. But so is fuerza (strength), libertad, capacidad, and calidad (quality). In fact, the majority of words that are nominalized adjectives are feminine. All words ending in the suffixes -idad and -ez are feminine, as well as words ending in -ia. So that also includes words like estupidez, idiotez, but also inteligencia, generosidad. So making a case for sexism in the Spanish language is going to be fruitless if focused on words such as those. Masculine words also include plenty of good and bad - sacramento is masculine, but pecado (sin) and odio (hatred) are also.
Spanish does subsume females into males when plural. So, a group of people including men and women will take masculine pronouns and adjectives, but will only be feminine when it's all women. But then again, there are other generic situations where the word is female - such as persona (person) which is always feminine, even if the person referred to by the word is known to be male, and the word la gente (people).
So, I generally refrain from commenting on other language's sexism relative to English since it can be difficult to ascertain, and it can be especially difficult in languages with grammatical gender that is linked to biological gender. Note that grammatical gender is not always masc/fem, for example Swedish has grammatical gender, but the two genders are usually simply known by the definite article used for each, so there are en words and ett words (also referred to as common and neuter, respectively). They are loosely related to animate vs. inanimate, since the en gender was formed by the fusion of the old masculine and feminine genders, and ett was the neuter.
On the other hand, some patterns can be easier to analyze - such as the fact that Japanese, which has a number of different person pronouns, does not have the same range of pronouns for females. A Japanese female has to use pronouns that would be more polite when used by a male as standard form, and it is inappropriate for a female to use the most informal pronouns, whereas a Japanese male has a greater range of formality available to him. One can see how women's language being forced into more polite registers can have sexist implications.
Woo hoo! goin clubin' tonight, learned my lesson from last weekend so this time im just going topless. lol. BTW its a gay club, so not much groping from the opposite sex.
I take pride in my appearence, i dont think of it as being shallow. Outward appearence projects alot about who you are. From the way you stand. walk. talk. the clothes you wear, the way you style your hair. it all says something about you. I try to project a postive self image if albeit a trendy one.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks for the Sig and Avatar Fogatog @EPIC GRAPHICS
@erimir: Oh, Japanese language has pronouncedly sexist overtones, to be sure. Moreso than any language which I've been exposed to that actually has grammatical gender. Chiefly because it has an internal standard of appropriateness of word use based on gender. This is incorporating gender norms into linguistic expression, which I think is far more likely to be sexist than grammatically masculine or feminine associations with adjectives or nouns. In fact, that is sexism in the basest sense, I think.
@GrassNinja: Goodluck! Try to avoid the collateral damage this time.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
As a general rule, I tend to discredit the notion that exceptions to tendencies having to do with gender are really as rare as they are perceived to be. But I could be wrong. In any case, I get your point. *salute*
I'm skeptical that hormones really provide that much of an influence overall. It seems ambiguous to me. When it come to libido and sensory experience, it seems so, and that can count for a lot. But many studies examine people who have been exposed to high levels of opposite-sex hormones, such as estrogen in men and testosterone in women, and don't find demonstrable changes in behavior because of it, except for significant changes in sex drive. However, the idea that a woman who has more testosterone (I've heard of that as a side effect of some medical treatments) starts acting like a man is largely erroneous, it seems.
Also, transsexuals who take hormones often don't become more feminine or more masucline in personality except in the cases of associated behaviors that are ostensibly linked to hormonal balance - FtMs, for instance, becoming more excitable and easily aroused, and MtFs describing feeling more calm. It seems to be a bit subjective, but there's some pattern to it, probably.
I don't doubt that hormones do have an effect on behavior, but I also think that there must be some deeper aspect of the biology or neurology that influence gender-associated behavior. I generally buy into the notion that it's oriented with neurological structure in some way, which is often used to explain transsexuality.
Well, that's just if you take testosterone and estrogen into consideration, neither or which (admittedly) have much of an influence on behavior and perception. There are also hundreds of other sex linked hormones which are quite subtly involved in such things, however. Much of who we are is dictated by hormones, and the more research we go into finding out how they work, the more we confirm this trend.
I very much agree with that. I think that sexual feelings play a large part in how we view sex in general.
It adds, I think, an emotional trigger and allows for all kinds of subconscious associations to pop up. People are a lot less likely to be, for example, racist in a normal environment by comparison.
Yeah. Science is supposed to change its message. And moreover, science actually works. Many religious proponents seem to have this romantic ideal of fastidious moral conviction in honor of absolute truth (into which they apparently have a special intuitive insight), though that basically amounts to functioning on preconceptions.
And making everything fit into that preconception instead of honestly asking how compatible it seems to be. Talk about your measure in intellectual dishonesty.
I don't think it's really a matter that science changes its message, though, because science doesn't have a "message." It's not a homogeneous set of ideas that people have... it's a self-improving method for understanding things, and perhaps to some extent based on a philosophy that you can understand things through empiricism. That's where I think anti-scientific "thinkers" (to use the term lightly) are real off in their criticisms of science because they treat it as though it is beholden to the same criteria as their religion; videlicet having a standard set of beliefs... which just isn't the case.
I don't want to give you the wrong idea, though - the kind of transsexual I'm talking about isn't a majority. But you always have people like that, I guess.
Most of the trans community I've been exposed to have been perfectly cool. Most gay guys aren't jerks, either, although I do notice a trend of promiscuity.
I think in my case it's less that I listen to everything, and more that I listen to anything. If I hear something in passing and I like it, I'll add it to a playlist or new CD. I don't often go looking for new music anymore, though.
Well, I'm probably more inclined towards that attitude. I'm slightly less likely to get into some genres these days, though, because they are systematically unpleasant to listen to. The songs that are exceptions are just OK, not great.
Hee hee. Yep. I generally like alcohol for the taste (which means I only like a few kinds), and once you start getting inebriated, your experience of taste just starts faltering anyway, and it's beyond time to stop.
I've never been drunk, so I don't know what it's like. I really hope I never do get drunk.
That really sounds like a mixed bag. I sometimes wonder if it's maybe true that I "let" myself be ugly, or unattractive, to ward off attention from girls. Or maybe not, who knows. Either way, I guess, looking like an attractive guy for me would only be marginally better than looking like an unattractive one.
As bad as hordes of women are, I think I'd also be uncomfortable about being attacked by a throng of gay guys. And I've been repeatedly been told by people that were I to go to a club, I'd be in danger of that.
I would be wary of characterizing languages with grammatical gender as being more sexist than English. There is likely to be sexism in their language, but you have to be careful.
It is easy to handpick words that make it seem that way, simply because you can pick out a positive word that is in a grammatical context in which it is masculine, and a negative word in a context that is feminine.
So, yes, debilidad (weakness) is feminine. But so is fuerza (strength), libertad, capacidad, and calidad (quality). In fact, the majority of words that are nominalized adjectives are feminine. All words ending in the suffixes -idad and -ez are feminine, as well as words ending in -ia. So that also includes words like estupidez, idiotez, but also inteligencia, generosidad. So making a case for sexism in the Spanish language is going to be fruitless if focused on words such as those. Masculine words also include plenty of good and bad - sacramento is masculine, but pecado (sin) and odio (hatred) are also.
Spanish does subsume females into males when plural. So, a group of people including men and women will take masculine pronouns and adjectives, but will only be feminine when it's all women. But then again, there are other generic situations where the word is female - such as persona (person) which is always feminine, even if the person referred to by the word is known to be male, and the word la gente (people).
So, I generally refrain from commenting on other language's sexism relative to English since it can be difficult to ascertain, and it can be especially difficult in languages with grammatical gender that is linked to biological gender. Note that grammatical gender is not always masc/fem, for example Swedish has grammatical gender, but the two genders are usually simply known by the definite article used for each, so there are en words and ett words (also referred to as common and neuter, respectively). They are loosely related to animate vs. inanimate, since the en gender was formed by the fusion of the old masculine and feminine genders, and ett was the neuter.
On the other hand, some patterns can be easier to analyze - such as the fact that Japanese, which has a number of different person pronouns, does not have the same range of pronouns for females. A Japanese female has to use pronouns that would be more polite when used by a male as standard form, and it is inappropriate for a female to use the most informal pronouns, whereas a Japanese male has a greater range of formality available to him. One can see how women's language being forced into more polite registers can have sexist implications.
I think the fact that the grammatical categories for the romance languages being gender-linked in the first place is sexist, and a part of the larger associations people have with gender that have no basis in the actual gender traits, as I was discussing earlier.
You're right that just cherry picking too examples (especially given that fuerte and debilidad are not grammatically equivalent) hardly makes a point, but I think to a degree the trend for things to be categorized in one gender or another does follow sexist notions, even if that doesn't necessarily always mean masculine = positive and feminine = negative; sometimes assuming a completely positive trait is feminine is also sexist.
In my constructed language (yeah... I have one of those; I know, I'm a geek) there is no gender. But that's because it's a "divine language" which would have no use for a gender (it has separate declensions for persons, concepts and objects). How it works out is pretty neat, though I do have over a thousand pronouns.
Well, that's just if you take testosterone and estrogen into consideration, neither or which (admittedly) have much of an influence on behavior and perception. There are also hundreds of other sex linked hormones which are quite subtly involved in such things, however. Much of who we are is dictated by hormones, and the more research we go into finding out how they work, the more we confirm this trend.
Which other sex-linked hormones? I know this isn't Debate, but I'd like it if you could be more specific, and maybe provide some evidence.
Testosterone, for example, has at times been shown to have apparently significant influence on sex drive and sexual arousal, regulation of adrenalin, the experience of certain sensations and emotions, sense of smell, even life span. However, any effects it has on behavior or perception are still only contributive alongside other biological factors, to say nothing of environment and self-determination. That other hormones might be somehow more influential and overpower all of these other influences seems doubtful to me.
In particular, what aspect of behavior and perception do you believe to be determined by hormones? And which hormones?
It adds, I think, an emotional trigger and allows for all kinds of subconscious associations to pop up. People are a lot less likely to be, for example, racist in a normal environment by comparison.
I agree with that.
And making everything fit into that preconception instead of honestly asking how compatible it seems to be. Talk about your measure in intellectual dishonesty.
Yeah. Very much a case of putting the cart before the horse. Devising ideas about reality, and then trying to force reality to fit the ideas, instead of adapting ideas as you come to understand reality better.
I don't think it's really a matter that science changes its message, though, because science doesn't have a "message." It's not a homogeneous set of ideas that people have... it's a self-improving method for understanding things, and perhaps to some extent based on a philosophy that you can understand things through empiricism. That's where I think anti-scientific "thinkers" (to use the term lightly) are real off in their criticisms of science because they treat it as though it is beholden to the same criteria as their religion; videlicet having a standard set of beliefs... which just isn't the case.
Exactly. It's pretty telling that some people expect science (as if it were a philosophical culture) to have a platform, and expect that platform to remain constant. For instance, it has been believed that the "message" of science is that of evolutionary theory. This assumes that "the science community" necessarily advocates all of the implications that the particular religion opposes about evolutionary theory. Science isn't an ideology so much as a methodology.
Most of the trans community I've been exposed to have been perfectly cool. Most gay guys aren't jerks, either, although I do notice a trend of promiscuity.
Admittedly, the trans community is pretty diverse, and notoriously hard to type. We're hard to figure out.
Well, I'm probably more inclined towards that attitude. I'm slightly less likely to get into some genres these days, though, because they are systematically unpleasant to listen to. The songs that are exceptions are just OK, not great.
I guess I'm kinda the same way. I never really listen to country anymore, because I've just found all country songs I've hard in the past few years to just be boring.
I've never been drunk, so I don't know what it's like. I really hope I never do get drunk.
Nor have I. I can see why people do it, though. Alcohol is very sedative.
As bad as hordes of women are, I think I'd also be uncomfortable about being attacked by a throng of gay guys. And I've been repeatedly been told by people that were I to go to a club, I'd be in danger of that.
Yeah . . . yikes.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
I've never been drunk, so I don't know what it's like. I really hope I never do get drunk.
As bad as hordes of women are, I think I'd also be uncomfortable about being attacked by a throng of gay guys. And I've been repeatedly been told by people that were I to go to a club, I'd be in danger of that.
Dont look at it as being "attacked" more like going to an all you can eat buffet, where you can take your time and pick and choose exactly what you want for dessert.
And why the fear/distain of getting drunk. You sound a bit wound up, a nice stiff drink sounds like exactly what you need.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks for the Sig and Avatar Fogatog @EPIC GRAPHICS
Which other sex-linked hormones? I know this isn't Debate, but I'd like it if you could be more specific, and maybe provide some evidence.
Testosterone, for example, has at times been shown to have apparently significant influence on sex drive and sexual arousal, regulation of adrenalin, the experience of certain sensations and emotions, sense of smell, even life span. However, any effects it has on behavior or perception are still only contributive alongside other biological factors, to say nothing of environment and self-determination. That other hormones might be somehow more influential and overpower all of these other influences seems doubtful to me.
In particular, what aspect of behavior and perception do you believe to be determined by hormones? And which hormones?
Admittedly, I'm a little rusty on the subject.
When I was in high school, my psychology teacher suggested a book to me (this is not what actually happened, but I don't want to get into that) that was entirely about the subject - namely, that there's a ton of hormones related to our behavior and perception outside of the traditionally recognized testosterone and estrogen. I wouldn't say that they "overpower" things, though. The influence is very subtle individually.
I believe one of her main trump cards in the book was a hormone that has more to do with the physical reactions required for a man to have an erection than testosterone itself, if I'm not mistaken. I can't remember what it was called (something like DHRHT or somesuch, it's really irritating that I can't remember it and the internets aren't being helpful). She also described its numerous other functions (related to behavior and perception), but the erection thing seemed to be important in some way because apparently men with erectile dysfunction are prescribed testosterone when it doesn't actually have as much functionality as this other hormone. She also talked about the influences of progesterone. And like you stated, how testosterone can be used to treat depression, which I think would qualify, because depression seems to be more about your perception than the actual emotions that emerge from it.
Considering the non-sex linked hormones influence on behavior and perception (such as serotonin) I think it's reasonable to assume that some sex-linked hormones will also have similar influences. The sexes, however, have more similiarities than differences so individual hormones are going to play small roles; it's the total effect of them all working in concert that seems to have the largest effect on human consciousness which I think we take for granted. You also have to keep in mind that hormones for the most part aren't localized in one part of the body - they're present everywhere, including the brain.
I apologize I don't have any more specific knowledge of the subject.
Yeah. Very much a case of putting the cart before the horse. Devising ideas about reality, and then trying to force reality to fit the ideas, instead of adapting ideas as you come to understand reality better.
The future of humanity seems dim, eh?
Exactly. It's pretty telling that some people expect science (as if it were a philosophical culture) to have a platform, and expect that platform to remain constant. For instance, it has been believed that the "message" of science is that of evolutionary theory. This assumes that "the science community" necessarily advocates all of the implications that the particular religion opposes about evolutionary theory. Science isn't an ideology so much as a methodology.
Bingo. I accept evolutionary theory as plausible because the evidence fits the explanation. As soon as we have evidence that not only contradicts this explanation but makes falsifiable predictions about a new kind of explanation, I'd probably drop evolution without any qualms. I'm more interested in Truth than "being right."
Admittedly, the trans community is pretty diverse, and notoriously hard to type. We're hard to figure out.
Definitely. Almost all of my experience has been with FTM - I don't think I've ever actually met a MTF, in fact.
I haven't met very many lesbians, either.
Quote from GrassNinja »
Dont look at it as being "attacked" more like going to an all you can eat buffet, where you can take your time and pick and choose exactly what you want for dessert.
And why the fear/distain of getting drunk. You sound a bit wound up, a nice stiff drink sounds like exactly what you need.
Haha, that still kind of sounds terrifying to me. I don't tend to do well in situations where I get a lot of attention. Also, I'm very sensitive to the emotional feelings of others so being in a crowded place like a club is often overwhelming for me.
I guess the thing about getting drunk for me is I feel it would warp how I see things, which sounds unappealing to me. I agree that I do need time to unwind; I try to do this with meditation, though.
When I was in high school, my psychology teacher suggested a book to me (this is not what actually happened, but I don't want to get into that) that was entirely about the subject - namely, that there's a ton of hormones related to our behavior and perception outside of the traditionally recognized testosterone and estrogen. I wouldn't say that they "overpower" things, though. The influence is very subtle individually.
I believe one of her main trump cards in the book was a hormone that has more to do with the physical reactions required for a man to have an erection than testosterone itself, if I'm not mistaken. I can't remember what it was called (something like DHRHT or somesuch, it's really irritating that I can't remember it and the internets aren't being helpful). She also described its numerous other functions (related to behavior and perception), but the erection thing seemed to be important in some way because apparently men with erectile dysfunction are prescribed testosterone when it doesn't actually have as much functionality as this other hormone. She also talked about the influences of progesterone. And like you stated, how testosterone can be used to treat depression, which I think would qualify, because depression seems to be more about your perception than the actual emotions that emerge from it.
Considering the non-sex linked hormones influence on behavior and perception (such as serotonin) I think it's reasonable to assume that some sex-linked hormones will also have similar influences. The sexes, however, have more similiarities than differences so individual hormones are going to play small roles; it's the total effect of them all working in concert that seems to have the largest effect on human consciousness which I think we take for granted. You also have to keep in mind that hormones for the most part aren't localized in one part of the body - they're present everywhere, including the brain.
I apologize I don't have any more specific knowledge of the subject.
I understand. Thanks. Sorry, I don't mean to bully you.
I'm curious as to what behavior you believe may be determined by sex-linked hormones. For example, let's say that a trait typically defined as feminine were thought to be determined by a hormone produced by ovaries. How could it be possible, then, for a female (with functioning ovaries) to not possess that trait? How strong is that determination? What other factors may influence it? I guess this is what I meant when I said it seems pretty ambiguous to me.
Also, I'm not sure, but I didn't think that neurotransmitters were the same thing as hormones. There may be neurotansmitter activity (or like, functions of the hypothalamus, or whatever) differences that are generally sex-linked. That's kind of what I mean by neurological differences in terms of gender.
The future of humanity seems dim, eh?
Well, I think there's still hope. It has to get worse before it gets better, right?
Bingo. I accept evolutionary theory as plausible because the evidence fits the explanation. As soon as we have evidence that not only contradicts this explanation but makes falsifiable predictions about a new kind of explanation, I'd probably drop evolution without any qualms. I'm more interested in Truth than "being right."
Well put. I agree.
Definitely. Almost all of my experience has been with FTM - I don't think I've ever actually met a MTF, in fact.
I haven't met very many lesbians, either.
I don't know any lesbians personally, except one girl who is bisexual, though I've met many lesbians. Unfortunately, I don't know any FtMs, though I'd like to become more exposed to other parts of the trans community.
I'm an MtF, in case it wasn't obvious. Heh.
Haha, that still kind of sounds terrifying to me. I don't tend to do well in situations where I get a lot of attention. Also, I'm very sensitive to the emotional feelings of others so being in a crowded place like a club is often overwhelming for me.
Oh, I'm the same way. I tend to be uncomfortable is busy public places, especially those that aren't very open (i.e. parties, clubs, etc.) It really is like emotional white noise, in a way, and it's very hard to ignore, isn't it?
I guess the thing about getting drunk for me is I feel it would warp how I see things, which sounds unappealing to me. I agree that I do need time to unwind; I try to do this with meditation, though.
Yes; I've heard it said that meditation is a very good "alternative" for the kind of release or escape people seek in drugs and drinking. Rather, I've heard it claimed that what people really need when they seek this is to find the peace of meditation.
I'm very interested in meditation, and have been "into it" for a while now. But to be honest, I have trouble with most formal meditation techniques. Have you ever read anything by Osho?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
Meditation is a great way to unwind, Osho's not to bad since there are so many types it really conforms to your needs. I used to do tai ji quan (tai chi) and qi gong breathing out on the beach during the summer, the weather is finally getting nicer so i can go out in the morining during my jog again.
Meditation is a nice way to relax but i can hardly compare it to going out at night and drinking and dancing till dawn, both are types of escapism but the energy and fun from a night out on the town is just more enthralling to me. I cant say i have "fun" when i meditate like when i get drunk, its just a different feeling.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks for the Sig and Avatar Fogatog @EPIC GRAPHICS
I understand. Thanks. Sorry, I don't mean to bully you.
I'm curious as to what behavior you believe may be determined by sex-linked hormones. For example, let's say that a trait typically defined as feminine were thought to be determined by a hormone produced by ovaries. How could it be possible, then, for a female (with functioning ovaries) to not possess that trait? How strong is that determination? What other factors may influence it? I guess this is what I meant when I said it seems pretty ambiguous to me.
I'm thinking more of hormones coded on the sex chromosomes rather than the hormone itself as released from glands - genetic variation will increase or decrease the presence, and therefore the effect, of levels of a particular hormone in a person, causing traits to fluctuate in individuals of a certain sex. Also, even though some people possess the same genotype the environment or the person's emotional or biological state can influence whether the gene is expressed, and it may also be related to whether or not the gene is enhanced (if it is not, it might not be expressed at all, and there's different levels of enhancement as well). This is more of my territory.
I believe that most of our emotional states are related to hormones, many of which will have their production triggered as a result of psychological associations. So I guess you could say I'm making a behaviorist argument set in biochemistry, if that helps.
I'd also say much of our "gut reactions" and instinctual behavior to stimuli is hormone-related.
Also, I'm not sure, but I didn't think that neurotransmitters were the same thing as hormones. There may be neurotansmitter activity (or like, functions of the hypothalamus, or whatever) differences that are generally sex-linked. That's kind of what I mean by neurological differences in terms of gender.
Neurotransmitters are almost universally classified as hormones I believe, they're just a specialized type of hormone.
Well, I think there's still hope. It has to get worse before it gets better, right?
That is true. I often take a despairing attitude towards humanity because it often seems like very little can be done to address the root of much of our problems - some people do not, and will not, think. And it doesn't matter what we do about it, it seems.
I don't know any lesbians personally, except one girl who is bisexual, though I've met many lesbians. Unfortunately, I don't know any FtMs, though I'd like to become more exposed to other parts of the trans community.
I'm an MtF, in case it wasn't obvious. Heh.
Ah. I wasn't entirely clear (I'm not very good at reading gender as I don't really have a distinct one myself).
Oh, I'm the same way. I tend to be uncomfortable is busy public places, especially those that aren't very open (i.e. parties, clubs, etc.) It really is like emotional white noise, in a way, and it's very hard to ignore, isn't it?
There have been times when I have had an emotional breakdown because I've been in an area with lots of people and no easy way of getting away. White noise I can tolerate; the cacophony that a lot of really worked up people make is almost unbearable.
I guess it's what they call empathy. Even my own emotions hit me very strongly (which is why I strive for serenity), but a lot of other people's at once makes me panic.
Yes; I've heard it said that meditation is a very good "alternative" for the kind of release or escape people seek in drugs and drinking. Rather, I've heard it claimed that what people really need when they seek this is to find the peace of meditation.
I'm very interested in meditation, and have been "into it" for a while now. But to be honest, I have trouble with most formal meditation techniques. Have you ever read anything by Osho?
It's my understanding that people get a "high" off of capsaicin (it's what makes hot food hot :D), because the body releases endorphins to deal with the sensation of pain. Maybe that's my alcohol replacement.
I had problem with meditation for a long time, too. I think the key is to not have any expectations about the whole process and just let yourself relax, which for me is hard to do. I think we tend to think that, for example, we're supposed to "not think anything" or "have an outer-body experience" and that just clouds the whole thing. Having something to focus on helps me, but it's important to remember that it's just a mechanism and not essential to what you're seeking. For example, a lot of people emphasize "correct breathing techniques" which is really just a distraction, I think, if you're not used to breathing that way.
I haven't read Osho - you mind telling me about him/her/it?
Sara: and yet at one point he actually put in his profile name as "Face like an angel, gay boy who acts str8"
or something along those lines
even if he weren't ragingly gay, I'd still think it was ridiculous
then again, I just find the whole "straight-acting = good, gay-acting = bad!" thing to reek of internalized homophobia
Bryan: agree
oh, how I agree
although
Sara: and it's kind of ridiculous to insist that effeminacy or whatever is just a stereotype when you're reinforcing it
Bryan: "face like an angel" and "straight acting" in the same sentence together sounds fishy to me
Sara:
yes, that just makes it even more ridiculous
heh, whenever I see a gay guy who says that he acts "straight", I think "so, like, do you screw chicks or something?"
Bryan: I always think "You mean you act like a straight... female?
I'm thinking more of hormones coded on the sex chromosomes rather than the hormone itself as released from glands - genetic variation will increase or decrease the presence, and therefore the effect, of levels of a particular hormone in a person, causing traits to fluctuate in individuals of a certain sex. Also, even though some people possess the same genotype the environment or the person's emotional or biological state can influence whether the gene is expressed, and it may also be related to whether or not the gene is enhanced (if it is not, it might not be expressed at all, and there's different levels of enhancement as well). This is more of my territory.
I believe that most of our emotional states are related to hormones, many of which will have their production triggered as a result of psychological associations. So I guess you could say I'm making a behaviorist argument set in biochemistry, if that helps.
I'd also say much of our "gut reactions" and instinctual behavior to stimuli is hormone-related.
Then how might you explain mosaicism and chimerism, in which case a male can have XX chromosones and a female can have XY chromosones?
Ah. I wasn't entirely clear (I'm not very good at reading gender as I don't really have a distinct one myself).
Out of curiosity, what relationship do you think this has with your hormones? Do you imagine that you have less hormonal balance of what most males typically have? Tell me if that's too personal.
And, more broadly, how would you theorize that transsexuality is even possible?
I had problem with meditation for a long time, too. I think the key is to not have any expectations about the whole process and just let yourself relax, which for me is hard to do. I think we tend to think that, for example, we're supposed to "not think anything" or "have an outer-body experience" and that just clouds the whole thing. Having something to focus on helps me, but it's important to remember that it's just a mechanism and not essential to what you're seeking. For example, a lot of people emphasize "correct breathing techniques" which is really just a distraction, I think, if you're not used to breathing that way.
Oh, precisely. I've had that problem, too. For a while I was driving myself batty trying to "get it right." Relaxation is very central to the process. I've read that the three core aspects of meditation are relaxation, awareness, and non-judgmental attitude (which includes not assessing your experience in terms of a goal).
I haven't read Osho - you mind telling me about him/her/it?
He's just a very neat person, a semi-famous Indian mystic who's had a number of books published. I can recommend some later.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
Then how might you explain mosaicism and chimerism, in which case a male can have XX chromosones and a female can have XY chromosones?
I believe those conditions develop from the fact that the prenatal hormonal environment precludes the foetus from developing the gender specified by its chromosomes. Things aren't as simple as genotype - your environment has quite a bit of an effect on what things are addressed, even to the point of, as you pointed out, changing sexual development.
Most hormones aren't exclusively produced by one or the other sex, so there is some wiggle room for variations of genes just on the X chromosome that can mean different things for another X chromosome or a Y chromosome.
Out of curiosity, what relationship do you think this has with your hormones? Do you imagine that you have less hormonal balance of what most males typically have? Tell me if that's too personal.
I really don't know.
I've actually never thought about what my hormonal balance might be; it might be less than what is typical, but that might not necessarily be the case. If I don't shave I do get facial hair, for example.
My lack of gender identity is, in my opinion, based on the fact that I haven't really discerned very many of my personality traits to be strongly related to one gender or the other. It may be more of a philosophical than biological orientation.
And, more broadly, how would you theorize that transsexuality is even possible?
I can't begin to imagine. Perhaps there's a mutation or crossover from the X to Y chromosome or vice versa that creates the expression of a particular hormone in people that make them feel like the opposite gender. Maybe the prenatal environment has to do with it. It might not have a hormonal basis whatsoever and be related to psychological development. I don't think anyone can really answer that question, though... it seems to be one of those things that is more or less a mystery.
Oh, precisely. I've had that problem, too. For a while I was driving myself batty trying to "get it right." Relaxation is very central to the process. I've read that the three core aspects of meditation are relaxation, awareness, and non-judgmental attitude (which includes not assessing your experience in terms of a goal).
He's just a very neat person, a semi-famous Indian mystic who's had a number of books published. I can recommend some later.
Ah.
I don't meditate enough, really. It's one of the many discipline problems that seem to exist in my life.
You should be. People think that if the going gets tough, we could maybe develop space travel in a pinch (necessity is the mother of invention, right?) but we so far have no solution for, say, cosmic rays giving everyone cancer.
If we make this planet uninhabitable, we're most likely ****ed.
But I do! In Iowa, nonetheless.
Unfortunately they are all quite old and most of them have already passed on.
I just haven't met anyguy that's gay...
I mean, I might've, I just don't know about it, obviously.
You'll eventually encounter some, I think.
If you can avoid all the squaking drama whores, I think you'll be good.
Neurotransmitters are almost universally classified as hormones I believe, they're just a specialized type of hormone.
Well, I guess anything "chemical" would be endocrinological, wouldn't it? LOL.
Quote from Ain_Soph_Aur »
I believe those conditions develop from the fact that the prenatal hormonal environment precludes the foetus from developing the gender specified by its chromosomes. Things aren't as simple as genotype - your environment has quite a bit of an effect on what things are addressed, even to the point of, as you pointed out, changing sexual development.
Most hormones aren't exclusively produced by one or the other sex, so there is some wiggle room for variations of genes just on the X chromosome that can mean different things for another X chromosome or a Y chromosome.
As for mosaicism and chimerism, I had read some basic overview of how it supposedly occurs . . . more specifically, both of these conditions entail having XY in some cells and XX in others, or even more exotic karyotypes. It probably occurs in a similar way to any intersexed condition, as you said. And, like you siad, you can't be defined by genotype, surely.
Anyway, I see what you mean now that you specify that you aren't merely talking about hormones created by gonads.
I can't begin to imagine. Perhaps there's a mutation or crossover from the X to Y chromosome or vice versa that creates the expression of a particular hormone in people that make them feel like the opposite gender. Maybe the prenatal environment has to do with it. It might not have a hormonal basis whatsoever and be related to psychological development. I don't think anyone can really answer that question, though... it seems to be one of those things that is more or less a mystery.
The theory you posed above is actually pretty close to the more popular theory I'm familiar with. Hormonal signals influence growth and development, and it's believed that there are some conditions of the prenatal environment that alter the process by which a fetus' development to trigger. Theoretically, it's possible for whatever process of the brain that controls this kind of hormone regulation (hypothalamus, isn't it?) to develop differently than the process which determines sexual organs. And we generally define sex and gender by which sex organs you have, since that is the most visible (even if it doesn't have as much influence on your behavior).
It's probably also possible that it has to do with a genetic mutation.
As for psychological development, I've considered that, and it's possible. Though there doesn't seem to be much evidence supporting it. You'd think that something as abstract as "gender identity" would almost universally be something psychological, and there's certainly a psychological element to it (as you have pointed out in your sense). However, transgender children typically manifest prominent signs of gender dysphoria and "cross-gender" identification as early as pre-school age or earlier, and this tends to develop contrary to the way they are being socialized, and not in context to a particularly outstanding environmental factor in common. And the fact that this persists throughout life, again despite socialization, and resists change is somewhat different from other learned behaviors, even strong ones like personality disorders. And lastly, the experience of gender dysphoria in transgender people lines up logically with the experience of gender dysphoria in cisgender people who undergo some process that alters their visible sex characteristics and social treatment.
And you're right, it's kind of a mystery. Even if we determine it's because of prenatal development, it's still pretty obscure and ambiguous. Psychologically speaking, I think it's hard to figure out. I myself don't claim to understand it, why it happens, and why it matters so much.
I really don't know.
I've actually never thought about what my hormonal balance might be; it might be less than what is typical, but that might not necessarily be the case. If I don't shave I do get facial hair, for example.
My lack of gender identity is, in my opinion, based on the fact that I haven't really discerned very many of my personality traits to be strongly related to one gender or the other. It may be more of a philosophical than biological orientation.
You know, that doesn't sound that strange to me. I've known a lot of people who have a neutral or ambiguous sense of gender in themselves. My guess is that the strong gender identification that most people supposedly have is somewhat a result of socialization. Even my gender identity is fluid and not entirely clear, although it's not weak, either.
I think that facial hair is influenced by testosterone, because genetic females who take testosterone start to grow facial hair.
I don't meditate enough, really. It's one of the many discipline problems that seem to exist in my life.
Yeah, I have that problem, too, including with other things, like exercise.
There have been times when I have had an emotional breakdown because I've been in an area with lots of people and no easy way of getting away. White noise I can tolerate; the cacophony that a lot of really worked up people make is almost unbearable.
I guess it's what they call empathy. Even my own emotions hit me very strongly (which is why I strive for serenity), but a lot of other people's at once makes me panic.
Uh huh. The introjection is rough, too. It's one thing to be uncomfortably stimulated by emotional atmospheres, and another to start feeling that emotion youself, as if it were your own, inexplicably. It's annoying, not to say overwhelming.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
This installment of HGoTW once again eschews expectations by ignoring the "beefcake of a hunka-hunka with a perfect body and chiseled face" standard and going with a more "boy next door" cutie. Ladies and gentlm.... meh, ladies will do... I give you: Jason Mraz!
In case you live in a cave, Jason is a singer known for hits such as "The Remedy (I Won't Worry)", "Wordplay", and my personal favorite "You and I Both". (That video, by the way, is about the silliest thing I've ever seen. Especially since the song is so beautiful and bittersweet.)
This boy has it all. He's a succesful (that means rich, kids. It's an important quality when seeking a sugar daddy ) musician and songwriter, even producing a well-received sophomore album! He's absolutely adorable, has a great sense of humor (remember that video from a minute ago?), loves the color pink, and he very much believes in experimenting with sexuality. Score!
Oh yeah, he can sing too! Incredibly well. Many of his songs have vocals that don't sound really hard to pull off until you actually try it. And my God, his voice could melt my pants right off.
Great, now I have to mop up my pants... Be right back. Jason will keep you company while I'm gone.
OK, I'm back. Sorry that took so long.
What's that? Why didn't I put new pants on? Ummm...
What's that? Where did Jason disappear to while I was gone?
Those are good questions to be answered in good time...Oh, here comes Jason now...
Oops. Sorry about that, stud. Let me wipe that off for you...
Indeed, it does. Mikey has basically turned me around in that sense. Even though I'm still very self-conscious, I am WAY, WAY better than I was this time two years ago. Although, around Mikey [and more often, his family], I am myself. completely. It comes out here and there around his friends, but only certain ones.
In other news, I ate way too much today and my stomach is not happy with me. PLUS I'm out of Teddy Grahams, which is sad, because I still have lots of pudding left. [dunking the bears in pudding is great. :D] Our room is FREEZING. and i'm wearing a sweatshirt. brrrrrr.
I was on the edge of falling [as i call it. you might not understand, and that's okay.] earlier, because of the whole alcohol joke thing [i beat myself up too much]...and then Mikey...i don't know how he does it, i really don't, but he had me laughing and smiling more than i have the past two or three days. Last...march, i believe? he wrote a list in his planner of "reasons i love jo"...which I now have [bwhaha]...and I started my own list of reasons I love him. I mean, it probably sounds silly because if you know you love someone, why list the reasons?
But hopefully, I can turn this into a project. Because I don't have a whole lot of money, most things he gets are handmade--"sekrit projects". I have one started already for June, one to send him after easter, and perhaps this one. Plus the rest of the little list I've started, to keep track of them all. I'm quite creative, haha.
I know it seems that I don't care,
but something in me does I swear.
[gaymers]
founder of the MTGS Forum Pirates
'tar/banner by R&Doom.
As for me, I'm extremely self-conscious about my appearance, almost to the point where I can be obsessive. And frankly, I know I have major issues, and that it's not healthy. Sometimes I can be feeling great, and I'll look in a mirror and it will spoil my whole day. That's more than a little sad, but I have a hard time dealing with it.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
I'm self-conscious to the point where there's more than one reason I wear jeans and tshirts and hoodies everyday. [besides it being EXTREMELY comfortable] I don't like the way I look in anything else. To get me to dress nicely for something is an uphill battle that people generally lose.
I know it seems that I don't care,
but something in me does I swear.
[gaymers]
founder of the MTGS Forum Pirates
'tar/banner by R&Doom.
I'm learning to get over it. It took my grandma a LONG time to get over it.
Jody: I generally don't wear nice clothes because I don't have them. I'm always spending money on other things. The nicest stuff I have right now was bought for me as a christmas birthday present type thing from friends I hadn't seen in 6 months. That and I hate buying clothes when I'm working out and on the way down the scale. Belts can only do so much. You should see the sag in the booty of my pants from last year. I guess that's all the more reason why I should buy new pants instead of a new pair of shoes every couple of weeks hee.
But w/e. Sometimes I have the strength to say, "Eff it. i don't care what anyone thinks. I'm working hard and am comfortable with my progress." and other times I'm like, "Man. There are a lot of skinny *****es." *hang head. Droop shoulders. Shuffle feet.*
My only vanity is my hair. I've been growing dreadlocks for the past 3 years and they're just past my shoulder now. I spend alot of time arranging my hair and playing with it too. People are always complimenting me on my dreads and asking me for advice. I honestly don't do much to it. I wash it once a week(soon to be twice a week in the warmer weather) and oil it once a week as well. The only bad things about my dreads are that they tend to collect bad smells and I simply can't dye them. My hair isn't very dark and so it seems perfect for going up a shade or two but dye just won't take to it. Lately its been turning a reddish sort of color but that happened before I got my dreads too so its probably not related. I think the red tone is a throwback to an ancestor who was a redhead or was of mixed ancestry(I've seen a few dark skinned black folks with natural red or auburn hair though).
blue: how could your grandma say such things? You're adorable! Real men have a few extra pound(for security) and so do real women. Though I do know a few perfectly healthy skinny people. My baby cousin(4 going on 40) is just this cute little waif who happens to have a high metabolism. She's a picky eater too and dinner with her is always entertaining. My best friend is also skinny and the guy eats enough for 3 or 4 other people(even when he hasn't smoked a bowl recently)! Conversely, I tend to eat less that normal people do but fat sticks to me like white on rice. *shrug*
I love buying new clothes and dressing up. Theres nothing like a new pair of jeans to make you feel damn sexy out at the clubs.
Thats reminds me... last weekend i went out wearing a brand new black short sleeve button up from guess and it got destroyed, i was so pissed. I was dancing on stage generally being molested by hands reaching up and grabbing at me (which i really didnt mind), then all of a sudden they ripped my damn shirt off. I was so pissed! I liked that shirt so much i endded up going back to guess and bought a new one. lol.
Thanks for the Sig and Avatar Fogatog @EPIC GRAPHICS
No, I'm gorgeous. Sometimes I realize that I'm wearing things that don't match. Then I realize that it doesn't matter that what I'm wearing doesn't match because I'm a guy and stereotypes work out in my favor for such things.
I guess, if you look at it objectively, I'm really not that bad looking . . . for a guy. Therein lies the complication.
Holy crap. Maybe you should avoid that club, sweetness.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
Well, I was making a generalization in reference to a general group not a "everyone fits into this box" generalization. I think it's extremely common and I was trying to contrast that to, for example, the rare exceptions that we were otherwise discussing. Certainly it's part of public definition.
Then again, maybe those "objective" or naturally occurring aspects of gender are more appropriately categorized into sex as opposed to gender. Hormones dictate our behavior and perception to a greater degree than we imagine, and many of the traits associated with gender due to their personality or psychological basis really are just a chemical byproduct of physical sex. That depends, though, on how strict we are on qualifying what traits fall into gender and what fall into sex, however. I would say your hormonal trends have more to do with sex, but the implication of that on how we understand personalities could be significant.
Indeed, there's definitely a cultural push, but I was referring to an internal delusion. Videlicet, the gay men who have the harshest opinions about effeminate men probably fall short of being "masculine" for their own standards. What you dislike in yourself you hate in others, as they say.
It's actually kind of amusing. Women have great endurance, for example, far beyond the average for men. And they can give birth.
English has a lot of sexist narratives in its structure and connotation of words (such as "strength" and "weakness") but they're quite a bit more subtle than the romance languages (for example, [I]el fuerte[/I] and [I]la debilidad[/I]). I think because of this we tend to not notice much of the way our words construe our stereotypes upon the genders, all the while strengthening the associations below the surface.
I do think, though, that along with the increasing acceptance of the "masculine female" figure, people are also beginning to think of [I]women[/I] per se as weak, though weakness is still attached to femininity. Perhaps we're entering into a Spartan mentality. I definitely see elements of it in our culture already.
Maybe. Sexism is a kind of prejudice that will probably never be fully removed from society because of the inexorable link that the different sexes have to sexuality in the minds of, at least, heterosexuals. And I imagine it is that powerful sexual attraction that does lend to some sexist tendencies, perhaps at least in part due to the fact that for some people, their sexist notions are part of what they find attractive about the opposite sex.
Humans are a very difficult group to study because we have so much more bias towards ourselves than towards anything else in nature we might study. You'd almost have to have machines or an alien race do it, heh.
People are always looking to validate their way of seeing the world. It's probably something of a psychological defense mechanism, because completely discarding your worldview on a seemingly insignificant discrepancy would probably push a lot of people way off their equilibrium. That may be a naturally good degree of safety in the wild, but it doesn't display a lot of adaptability and objectivity in the more nuanced way of society.
I always hear criticisms of science in that it's "always changing it's message." As opposed to a religion which has a constant set of beliefs that never change ever, I guess. Such criticisms always make me sad because that person is obviously never going to learn anything that contradicts what he or she has already accepted as true. Science "changes its message" because we find new information and it changes what we think. It's a self-improving system. Some people are so caught up with wanting to be "right" without all the work and willingness to question their beliefs. It's instant gratification.
Ha.
In my experience, the queer community is way more intolerant than the heterosexual community. Some of the rudest, most unkind comments I've ever received were from other gay people, and I don't mean that they're just "meaner," but rather that they seem to care a lot more than straight people do about what gender traits you possess.
I'm much too escapist to ever really be happy. Nothing I want is of this world, so it's kind of a lost cause. I mainly try to be ok with it and see if I can't do something meaningful with my life.
I used to be less discriminating about what sort of music I would listen to, but I've gotten to the point where I really think that I don't have [I]time[/I] to try to listen to [I]everything[/I]. It's really just exhausting.
I wouldn't say her music makes me feel good. I find it annoying sounding, really. There are some instances where I do think that music is quite literally bad (although sometimes it's intentional).
As for other types of music that elicit that sort of response; sure, they're not necessarily bad, but again - generally it's not what I'm looking for in music.
Eh.
I liked pop, hip-hop and R&B when I was young. In fact, those were the only things I liked. I would say the sort of life experiences expressed by the music were more relevant to me in my childhood and early adolescence than they are to me now. My tastes just evolved, I guess.
Definitely. I was really fortunate to never be forced into clique-think in high school (mostly because I didn't have any friends... :-/) and I really think it gave me an opportunity to explore different things broadly. By being the lone wolf, I found myself acquiring eclectic tastes and interests, and there's really not any one word you could use to categorize me (other than perhaps "geek" and "homo," though those are decidedly one-dimensional from my point of view).
I come from similar backgrounds as you, and I used to be similarly opposed. I think I'm still opposed to drinking, but I've definitely softened my austerity about it. I really think that moderation is the key. For example, many of the kinds of meals I eat go well with wine, I think it's perfectly fine to enjoy a glass thusly. I would never drink to get drunk, however.
My point of view on alcohol is a bit... scientific. It's a poison, people. You're getting a high off of your liver trying to get that **** out of your system and brain cells dying. Imbibing poisonous substances in great quantities to alter your consciousness just seems... wrong to me. I guess for me, an accurate perception of reality and Truth is so important that I would never want to deceive myself in any way. But it is often the case that illusion is more pleasing than reality.
That's exactly the reason why I [I]don't[/I] go to clubs. I had a bad enough time in high school, with girls groping me in the hallways *shudder* and I'm really not a sociable person, so a club just sounds horrific. When I was young, everyone always called me ugly and I was convinced that it was true. Something about hitting adolescence changed because I started getting lots and LOTS of attention. I still kind of think of myself as at least average, but I realize that, at least, others seem to like what they see.
I'm skeptical that hormones really provide that much of an influence overall. It seems ambiguous to me. When it come to libido and sensory experience, it seems so, and that can count for a lot. But many studies examine people who have been exposed to high levels of opposite-sex hormones, such as estrogen in men and testosterone in women, and don't find demonstrable changes in behavior because of it, except for significant changes in sex drive. However, the idea that a woman who has more testosterone (I've heard of that as a side effect of some medical treatments) starts acting like a man is largely erroneous, it seems.
Also, transsexuals who take hormones often don't become more feminine or more masucline in personality except in the cases of associated behaviors that are ostensibly linked to hormonal balance - FtMs, for instance, becoming more excitable and easily aroused, and MtFs describing feeling more calm. It seems to be a bit subjective, but there's some pattern to it, probably.
I don't doubt that hormones do have an effect on behavior, but I also think that there must be some deeper aspect of the biology or neurology that influence gender-associated behavior. I generally buy into the notion that it's oriented with neurological structure in some way, which is often used to explain transsexuality.
I see what you're getting at.
I very much agree with that. I think that sexual feelings play a large part in how we view sex in general.
Yeah. Science is supposed to change its message. And moreover, science actually works. Many religious proponents seem to have this romantic ideal of fastidious moral conviction in honor of absolute truth (into which they apparently have a special intuitive insight), though that basically amounts to functioning on preconceptions.
I don't want to give you the wrong idea, though - the kind of transsexual I'm talking about isn't a majority. But you always have people like that, I guess.
I hear you.
I think in my case it's less that I listen to everything, and more that I listen to anything. If I hear something in passing and I like it, I'll add it to a playlist or new CD. I don't often go looking for new music anymore, though.
I'm with you there! I was the same way, basically.
Hee hee. Yep. I generally like alcohol for the taste (which means I only like a few kinds), and once you start getting inebriated, your experience of taste just starts faltering anyway, and it's beyond time to stop.
That really sounds like a mixed bag. I sometimes wonder if it's maybe true that I "let" myself be ugly, or unattractive, to ward off attention from girls. Or maybe not, who knows. Either way, I guess, looking like an attractive guy for me would only be marginally better than looking like an unattractive one.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
It is easy to handpick words that make it seem that way, simply because you can pick out a positive word that is in a grammatical context in which it is masculine, and a negative word in a context that is feminine.
So, yes, debilidad (weakness) is feminine. But so is fuerza (strength), libertad, capacidad, and calidad (quality). In fact, the majority of words that are nominalized adjectives are feminine. All words ending in the suffixes -idad and -ez are feminine, as well as words ending in -ia. So that also includes words like estupidez, idiotez, but also inteligencia, generosidad. So making a case for sexism in the Spanish language is going to be fruitless if focused on words such as those. Masculine words also include plenty of good and bad - sacramento is masculine, but pecado (sin) and odio (hatred) are also.
Spanish does subsume females into males when plural. So, a group of people including men and women will take masculine pronouns and adjectives, but will only be feminine when it's all women. But then again, there are other generic situations where the word is female - such as persona (person) which is always feminine, even if the person referred to by the word is known to be male, and the word la gente (people).
So, I generally refrain from commenting on other language's sexism relative to English since it can be difficult to ascertain, and it can be especially difficult in languages with grammatical gender that is linked to biological gender. Note that grammatical gender is not always masc/fem, for example Swedish has grammatical gender, but the two genders are usually simply known by the definite article used for each, so there are en words and ett words (also referred to as common and neuter, respectively). They are loosely related to animate vs. inanimate, since the en gender was formed by the fusion of the old masculine and feminine genders, and ett was the neuter.
On the other hand, some patterns can be easier to analyze - such as the fact that Japanese, which has a number of different person pronouns, does not have the same range of pronouns for females. A Japanese female has to use pronouns that would be more polite when used by a male as standard form, and it is inappropriate for a female to use the most informal pronouns, whereas a Japanese male has a greater range of formality available to him. One can see how women's language being forced into more polite registers can have sexist implications.
I take pride in my appearence, i dont think of it as being shallow. Outward appearence projects alot about who you are. From the way you stand. walk. talk. the clothes you wear, the way you style your hair. it all says something about you. I try to project a postive self image if albeit a trendy one.
Thanks for the Sig and Avatar Fogatog @EPIC GRAPHICS
@GrassNinja: Goodluck! Try to avoid the collateral damage this time.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
Well, that's just if you take testosterone and estrogen into consideration, neither or which (admittedly) have much of an influence on behavior and perception. There are also hundreds of other sex linked hormones which are quite subtly involved in such things, however. Much of who we are is dictated by hormones, and the more research we go into finding out how they work, the more we confirm this trend.
It adds, I think, an emotional trigger and allows for all kinds of subconscious associations to pop up. People are a lot less likely to be, for example, racist in a normal environment by comparison.
And making everything fit into that preconception instead of honestly asking how compatible it seems to be. Talk about your measure in intellectual dishonesty.
I don't think it's really a matter that science changes its message, though, because science doesn't have a "message." It's not a homogeneous set of ideas that people have... it's a self-improving method for understanding things, and perhaps to some extent based on a philosophy that you can understand things through empiricism. That's where I think anti-scientific "thinkers" (to use the term lightly) are real off in their criticisms of science because they treat it as though it is beholden to the same criteria as their religion; videlicet having a standard set of beliefs... which just isn't the case.
Most of the trans community I've been exposed to have been perfectly cool. Most gay guys aren't jerks, either, although I do notice a trend of promiscuity.
Well, I'm probably more inclined towards that attitude. I'm slightly less likely to get into some genres these days, though, because they are systematically unpleasant to listen to. The songs that are exceptions are just OK, not great.
I've never been drunk, so I don't know what it's like. I really hope I never do get drunk.
As bad as hordes of women are, I think I'd also be uncomfortable about being attacked by a throng of gay guys. And I've been repeatedly been told by people that were I to go to a club, I'd be in danger of that.
I think the fact that the grammatical categories for the romance languages being gender-linked in the first place is sexist, and a part of the larger associations people have with gender that have no basis in the actual gender traits, as I was discussing earlier.
You're right that just cherry picking too examples (especially given that fuerte and debilidad are not grammatically equivalent) hardly makes a point, but I think to a degree the trend for things to be categorized in one gender or another does follow sexist notions, even if that doesn't necessarily always mean masculine = positive and feminine = negative; sometimes assuming a completely positive trait is feminine is also sexist.
In my constructed language (yeah... I have one of those; I know, I'm a geek) there is no gender. But that's because it's a "divine language" which would have no use for a gender (it has separate declensions for persons, concepts and objects). How it works out is pretty neat, though I do have over a thousand pronouns.
Testosterone, for example, has at times been shown to have apparently significant influence on sex drive and sexual arousal, regulation of adrenalin, the experience of certain sensations and emotions, sense of smell, even life span. However, any effects it has on behavior or perception are still only contributive alongside other biological factors, to say nothing of environment and self-determination. That other hormones might be somehow more influential and overpower all of these other influences seems doubtful to me.
In particular, what aspect of behavior and perception do you believe to be determined by hormones? And which hormones?
I agree with that.
Yeah. Very much a case of putting the cart before the horse. Devising ideas about reality, and then trying to force reality to fit the ideas, instead of adapting ideas as you come to understand reality better.
Exactly. It's pretty telling that some people expect science (as if it were a philosophical culture) to have a platform, and expect that platform to remain constant. For instance, it has been believed that the "message" of science is that of evolutionary theory. This assumes that "the science community" necessarily advocates all of the implications that the particular religion opposes about evolutionary theory. Science isn't an ideology so much as a methodology.
Admittedly, the trans community is pretty diverse, and notoriously hard to type. We're hard to figure out.
I guess I'm kinda the same way. I never really listen to country anymore, because I've just found all country songs I've hard in the past few years to just be boring.
Nor have I. I can see why people do it, though. Alcohol is very sedative.
Yeah . . . yikes.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
Dont look at it as being "attacked" more like going to an all you can eat buffet, where you can take your time and pick and choose exactly what you want for dessert.
And why the fear/distain of getting drunk. You sound a bit wound up, a nice stiff drink sounds like exactly what you need.
Thanks for the Sig and Avatar Fogatog @EPIC GRAPHICS
Admittedly, I'm a little rusty on the subject.
When I was in high school, my psychology teacher suggested a book to me (this is not what actually happened, but I don't want to get into that) that was entirely about the subject - namely, that there's a ton of hormones related to our behavior and perception outside of the traditionally recognized testosterone and estrogen. I wouldn't say that they "overpower" things, though. The influence is very subtle individually.
I believe one of her main trump cards in the book was a hormone that has more to do with the physical reactions required for a man to have an erection than testosterone itself, if I'm not mistaken. I can't remember what it was called (something like DHRHT or somesuch, it's really irritating that I can't remember it and the internets aren't being helpful). She also described its numerous other functions (related to behavior and perception), but the erection thing seemed to be important in some way because apparently men with erectile dysfunction are prescribed testosterone when it doesn't actually have as much functionality as this other hormone. She also talked about the influences of progesterone. And like you stated, how testosterone can be used to treat depression, which I think would qualify, because depression seems to be more about your perception than the actual emotions that emerge from it.
Considering the non-sex linked hormones influence on behavior and perception (such as serotonin) I think it's reasonable to assume that some sex-linked hormones will also have similar influences. The sexes, however, have more similiarities than differences so individual hormones are going to play small roles; it's the total effect of them all working in concert that seems to have the largest effect on human consciousness which I think we take for granted. You also have to keep in mind that hormones for the most part aren't localized in one part of the body - they're present everywhere, including the brain.
I apologize I don't have any more specific knowledge of the subject.
The future of humanity seems dim, eh?
Bingo. I accept evolutionary theory as plausible because the evidence fits the explanation. As soon as we have evidence that not only contradicts this explanation but makes falsifiable predictions about a new kind of explanation, I'd probably drop evolution without any qualms. I'm more interested in Truth than "being right."
Definitely. Almost all of my experience has been with FTM - I don't think I've ever actually met a MTF, in fact.
I haven't met very many lesbians, either.
Haha, that still kind of sounds terrifying to me. I don't tend to do well in situations where I get a lot of attention. Also, I'm very sensitive to the emotional feelings of others so being in a crowded place like a club is often overwhelming for me.
I guess the thing about getting drunk for me is I feel it would warp how I see things, which sounds unappealing to me. I agree that I do need time to unwind; I try to do this with meditation, though.
I'm curious as to what behavior you believe may be determined by sex-linked hormones. For example, let's say that a trait typically defined as feminine were thought to be determined by a hormone produced by ovaries. How could it be possible, then, for a female (with functioning ovaries) to not possess that trait? How strong is that determination? What other factors may influence it? I guess this is what I meant when I said it seems pretty ambiguous to me.
Also, I'm not sure, but I didn't think that neurotransmitters were the same thing as hormones. There may be neurotansmitter activity (or like, functions of the hypothalamus, or whatever) differences that are generally sex-linked. That's kind of what I mean by neurological differences in terms of gender.
Well, I think there's still hope. It has to get worse before it gets better, right?
Well put. I agree.
I don't know any lesbians personally, except one girl who is bisexual, though I've met many lesbians. Unfortunately, I don't know any FtMs, though I'd like to become more exposed to other parts of the trans community.
I'm an MtF, in case it wasn't obvious. Heh.
Oh, I'm the same way. I tend to be uncomfortable is busy public places, especially those that aren't very open (i.e. parties, clubs, etc.) It really is like emotional white noise, in a way, and it's very hard to ignore, isn't it?
Yes; I've heard it said that meditation is a very good "alternative" for the kind of release or escape people seek in drugs and drinking. Rather, I've heard it claimed that what people really need when they seek this is to find the peace of meditation.
I'm very interested in meditation, and have been "into it" for a while now. But to be honest, I have trouble with most formal meditation techniques. Have you ever read anything by Osho?
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
Meditation is a nice way to relax but i can hardly compare it to going out at night and drinking and dancing till dawn, both are types of escapism but the energy and fun from a night out on the town is just more enthralling to me. I cant say i have "fun" when i meditate like when i get drunk, its just a different feeling.
Thanks for the Sig and Avatar Fogatog @EPIC GRAPHICS
I'm thinking more of hormones coded on the sex chromosomes rather than the hormone itself as released from glands - genetic variation will increase or decrease the presence, and therefore the effect, of levels of a particular hormone in a person, causing traits to fluctuate in individuals of a certain sex. Also, even though some people possess the same genotype the environment or the person's emotional or biological state can influence whether the gene is expressed, and it may also be related to whether or not the gene is enhanced (if it is not, it might not be expressed at all, and there's different levels of enhancement as well). This is more of my territory.
I believe that most of our emotional states are related to hormones, many of which will have their production triggered as a result of psychological associations. So I guess you could say I'm making a behaviorist argument set in biochemistry, if that helps.
I'd also say much of our "gut reactions" and instinctual behavior to stimuli is hormone-related.
Neurotransmitters are almost universally classified as hormones I believe, they're just a specialized type of hormone.
That is true. I often take a despairing attitude towards humanity because it often seems like very little can be done to address the root of much of our problems - some people do not, and will not, think. And it doesn't matter what we do about it, it seems.
Ah. I wasn't entirely clear (I'm not very good at reading gender as I don't really have a distinct one myself).
There have been times when I have had an emotional breakdown because I've been in an area with lots of people and no easy way of getting away. White noise I can tolerate; the cacophony that a lot of really worked up people make is almost unbearable.
I guess it's what they call empathy. Even my own emotions hit me very strongly (which is why I strive for serenity), but a lot of other people's at once makes me panic.
It's my understanding that people get a "high" off of capsaicin (it's what makes hot food hot :D), because the body releases endorphins to deal with the sensation of pain. Maybe that's my alcohol replacement.
I had problem with meditation for a long time, too. I think the key is to not have any expectations about the whole process and just let yourself relax, which for me is hard to do. I think we tend to think that, for example, we're supposed to "not think anything" or "have an outer-body experience" and that just clouds the whole thing. Having something to focus on helps me, but it's important to remember that it's just a mechanism and not essential to what you're seeking. For example, a lot of people emphasize "correct breathing techniques" which is really just a distraction, I think, if you're not used to breathing that way.
I haven't read Osho - you mind telling me about him/her/it?
Sara: and yet at one point he actually put in his profile name as "Face like an angel, gay boy who acts str8"
or something along those lines
even if he weren't ragingly gay, I'd still think it was ridiculous
then again, I just find the whole "straight-acting = good, gay-acting = bad!" thing to reek of internalized homophobia
Bryan: agree
oh, how I agree
although
Sara: and it's kind of ridiculous to insist that effeminacy or whatever is just a stereotype when you're reinforcing it
Bryan: "face like an angel" and "straight acting" in the same sentence together sounds fishy to me
Sara:
yes, that just makes it even more ridiculous
heh, whenever I see a gay guy who says that he acts "straight", I think "so, like, do you screw chicks or something?"
Bryan: I always think "You mean you act like a straight... female?
Out of curiosity, what relationship do you think this has with your hormones? Do you imagine that you have less hormonal balance of what most males typically have? Tell me if that's too personal.
And, more broadly, how would you theorize that transsexuality is even possible?
Oh, precisely. I've had that problem, too. For a while I was driving myself batty trying to "get it right." Relaxation is very central to the process. I've read that the three core aspects of meditation are relaxation, awareness, and non-judgmental attitude (which includes not assessing your experience in terms of a goal).
He's just a very neat person, a semi-famous Indian mystic who's had a number of books published. I can recommend some later.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
I believe those conditions develop from the fact that the prenatal hormonal environment precludes the foetus from developing the gender specified by its chromosomes. Things aren't as simple as genotype - your environment has quite a bit of an effect on what things are addressed, even to the point of, as you pointed out, changing sexual development.
Most hormones aren't exclusively produced by one or the other sex, so there is some wiggle room for variations of genes just on the X chromosome that can mean different things for another X chromosome or a Y chromosome.
I really don't know.
I've actually never thought about what my hormonal balance might be; it might be less than what is typical, but that might not necessarily be the case. If I don't shave I do get facial hair, for example.
My lack of gender identity is, in my opinion, based on the fact that I haven't really discerned very many of my personality traits to be strongly related to one gender or the other. It may be more of a philosophical than biological orientation.
I can't begin to imagine. Perhaps there's a mutation or crossover from the X to Y chromosome or vice versa that creates the expression of a particular hormone in people that make them feel like the opposite gender. Maybe the prenatal environment has to do with it. It might not have a hormonal basis whatsoever and be related to psychological development. I don't think anyone can really answer that question, though... it seems to be one of those things that is more or less a mystery.
Ah.
I don't meditate enough, really. It's one of the many discipline problems that seem to exist in my life.
You should be. People think that if the going gets tough, we could maybe develop space travel in a pinch (necessity is the mother of invention, right?) but we so far have no solution for, say, cosmic rays giving everyone cancer.
If we make this planet uninhabitable, we're most likely ****ed.
You'll eventually encounter some, I think.
If you can avoid all the squaking drama whores, I think you'll be good.
As for mosaicism and chimerism, I had read some basic overview of how it supposedly occurs . . . more specifically, both of these conditions entail having XY in some cells and XX in others, or even more exotic karyotypes. It probably occurs in a similar way to any intersexed condition, as you said. And, like you siad, you can't be defined by genotype, surely.
Anyway, I see what you mean now that you specify that you aren't merely talking about hormones created by gonads.
The theory you posed above is actually pretty close to the more popular theory I'm familiar with. Hormonal signals influence growth and development, and it's believed that there are some conditions of the prenatal environment that alter the process by which a fetus' development to trigger. Theoretically, it's possible for whatever process of the brain that controls this kind of hormone regulation (hypothalamus, isn't it?) to develop differently than the process which determines sexual organs. And we generally define sex and gender by which sex organs you have, since that is the most visible (even if it doesn't have as much influence on your behavior).
It's probably also possible that it has to do with a genetic mutation.
As for psychological development, I've considered that, and it's possible. Though there doesn't seem to be much evidence supporting it. You'd think that something as abstract as "gender identity" would almost universally be something psychological, and there's certainly a psychological element to it (as you have pointed out in your sense). However, transgender children typically manifest prominent signs of gender dysphoria and "cross-gender" identification as early as pre-school age or earlier, and this tends to develop contrary to the way they are being socialized, and not in context to a particularly outstanding environmental factor in common. And the fact that this persists throughout life, again despite socialization, and resists change is somewhat different from other learned behaviors, even strong ones like personality disorders. And lastly, the experience of gender dysphoria in transgender people lines up logically with the experience of gender dysphoria in cisgender people who undergo some process that alters their visible sex characteristics and social treatment.
And you're right, it's kind of a mystery. Even if we determine it's because of prenatal development, it's still pretty obscure and ambiguous. Psychologically speaking, I think it's hard to figure out. I myself don't claim to understand it, why it happens, and why it matters so much.
You know, that doesn't sound that strange to me. I've known a lot of people who have a neutral or ambiguous sense of gender in themselves. My guess is that the strong gender identification that most people supposedly have is somewhat a result of socialization. Even my gender identity is fluid and not entirely clear, although it's not weak, either.
I think that facial hair is influenced by testosterone, because genetic females who take testosterone start to grow facial hair.
Yeah, I have that problem, too, including with other things, like exercise.
Uh huh. The introjection is rough, too. It's one thing to be uncomfortably stimulated by emotional atmospheres, and another to start feeling that emotion youself, as if it were your own, inexplicably. It's annoying, not to say overwhelming.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
*Cues the music"
This installment of HGoTW once again eschews expectations by ignoring the "beefcake of a hunka-hunka with a perfect body and chiseled face" standard and going with a more "boy next door" cutie. Ladies and gentlm.... meh, ladies will do... I give you: Jason Mraz!
This boy has it all. He's a succesful (that means rich, kids. It's an important quality when seeking a sugar daddy ) musician and songwriter, even producing a well-received sophomore album! He's absolutely adorable, has a great sense of humor (remember that video from a minute ago?), loves the color pink, and he very much believes in experimenting with sexuality. Score!
Oh yeah, he can sing too! Incredibly well. Many of his songs have vocals that don't sound really hard to pull off until you actually try it. And my God, his voice could melt my pants right off.
What's that? Why didn't I put new pants on? Ummm...
What's that? Where did Jason disappear to while I was gone?
Those are good questions to be answered in good time...Oh, here comes Jason now...
Oops. Sorry about that, stud. Let me wipe that off for you...
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.