MTG Salvation

Huh. Jace for a self-mill engine?

Fun draft winner. Potentially fragile... Extra card for labman edh decks!

Cool card, i’m getting the sense that there isn’t going to be much cohesiveness in this set witn each walker doing their own thing. It would be cool for this to actually be competitive in standard. Self mill hasn’t been much of an archetype in standard lately.

A less squishy labman is always appreciated.

From what I can tell, the -8 only wins you the game if:
A) you have exactly 7 cards in your library, or
B) You have fewer cards but Jace survives ulting (9+ loyalty before activating)

Is that accurate?

Confusing, yes. However, this is fundamental Magic. Just like how you cannot counter half of a spell's effects, everything must trigger when the spell resolves. Not many people know what Priority is, they just know that "Oh! I can cast an Instant or activate a permanent's ability now!" but do not understand why you can or what rule grants you the ability to do so. Now is a good time to brush up on Priority.

I get what you're saying and it technically makes sense. But, this is going to be really annoying in Limited where explaining that to most players will be a huge concern.

116.3. Which player has priority is determined by the following rules:
116.3a The active player receives priority at the beginning of most steps and phases, after any turn-based actions (such as drawing a card during the draw step; see rule 703) have been dealt with and abilities that trigger at the beginning of that phase or step have been put on the stack. No player receives priority during the untap step. Players usually don't get priority during the cleanup step (see rule 514.3).
116.3b The active player receives priority after a spell or ability (other than a mana ability) resolves.
116.3c If a player has priority when they cast a spell, activate an ability, or take a special action, that player receives priority afterward.
116.3d If a player has priority and chooses not to take any actions, that player passes. If any mana is in that player's mana pool, they announce what mana is there. Then the next player in turn order receives priority.

120.4. A player who attempts to draw a card from a library with no cards in it loses the game the next time a player would receive priority. (This is a state-based action. See rule 704.)

Technically, while you are drawing cards, if you have less than 7 cards in your library, you have to wait until the ability resolves BEFORE you regain priority. Order of operations is:
1) 6 or less cards in library. Pop ultimate.
2) When ability triggers, draw 7 cards. Priority is lost.
3) Ability resolves. You win the game since you had no cards left in the library.
4) You regain priority. Doesn't matter. You still won.

Ah, see I've always assumed you lose the moment you try to draw and can't.

You're right in that it seems like that's what they're intending this Jace to do.

Assuming that's the case, I wish they had phrased this card differently. Even if it's technically right because of that rule, it will cause large amounts of confusion between the handful of people that know of the rule and the majority that have no idea. I'm mostly thinking about Limited events where the level of rules knowledge is lower.

I also really hate that some state-based effects wait for priority and some don't. It's an unneeded complication.

I guess that I'm just confused as I've heard some talk that actually losing from decking only occurs when a player would next gain priority (instead of happening the moment you attempt to draw), meaning that the ability would complete and declare you the victor before you can lose.

Quote from comprehensive rules »

120.4. A player who attempts to draw a card from a library with no cards in it loses the game the next
time a player would receive priority. (This is a state-based action. See rule 704.)

I mean, that seems to be in the general flavor of what this card "should" be doing... but I'm not sure that wizards would bring up such an obscure timing rule for this purpose.

Jace has 8 loyalty.
-8 to pay for ultimate.
Jace has 0 loyalty.
Jace goes to the graveyard.
Now his ultimate effect occurs.
Draw 7 cards.
- was there more than 7? OK. Keep playing.
- was there less than 7? You decked yourself.
- was there exactly 7? Then if your library has no cards in it, you win the game.
If Jace had more than 8 loyalty and therefore is still on the battlefield, If you would draw a card while your library has no cards in it, you win the game instead is relevant. Otherwise, it's not.

So, yes ... your statement is accurate.

If only Sanity Grinding could target any player!

This Jace plays nicely with Jace, The Mind Sculptor, since you can Brainstorm and then Thought Scour yourself. They do both cost four though, a pretty contested mana spot.

T1 breeding pool; utopia sprawl or noble hierarch
T2 island, puresight merrow, paradise mantle, equip mantle to merrow.

T3
untap
upkeep - activate puresight merrow any number of times until this Jace is on top.
Draw step - draw the jace
Main phase - play the jace, activate puresight merrow and exile your library. Uptick jace and win.

Doesn't his static ability kinda already take care of the second part of the -8. Seems redundant.

not to mention the fact that if you have exactly 7 cards left in your library then you win instantly as opposed to needing to draw a 8th card to win with the first effect

Gotcha gotcha, makes sense now. Thanks!

If you use his -8 while he only has 8 loyalty counters, he leaves the field prior to the effect resolving, which means you would lose if you deck yourself and the ability didn't mention that in the effect.

Since there seems to be some confusion on this; you *do* win the game if you use his ult with fewer than 7 cards left.

What happens is...
Jace is at 8, you have, say, 5 cards left.

You ultimate Jace, his ability goes on the stack. He dies as a state-based effect when you next receive priority.

Priorities are passed and the ability begins resolving. You complete all of the instructions on the ability before receiving priority again: you draw seven cards (but can't, so you only draw five. You try to draw a sixth, but can't, so next time you would receive priority, you lose instead.). But for now you keep going. Next sentence: "If your library has no cards in it (it doesn't), you win the game". So, complete those instructions. You win the game.

Boom, game over, you win. Go get yourself a victory soda.

You never actually lose because you won first, before you would have received priority again. Note that this also does not count as losing and winning at the same time; in this specific case you win immediately before you would otherwise lose.

Yrrej8611 above goes into more detail about the actual MTG comprehensive rules that determine all of this.

tl;dr: his ult is confusing because it wins you the game immediately, whereas 'decking' yourself out doesn't actually cause you to lose until after you've done everything the ability says (not just the first sentence).

Thank you for the support!

I was not 100% sure on the ruling myself, so I searched the rules. Rules 116.3b, 116.3c, & 120.4 are the rules if anyone is interested in why you'd win.

just combine it with the leveler...no lib..you win!