After initially scrapping Memnite, Ornithopter and Glint Hawk as prescribed for more multiplayer-friendly cards, I came to the realization that the Quest gameplan is basically useless at this point, as Giblets pointed out.
As you can see, I made many changes. Land-wise, I've thrown in Darksteel Citadel and Kjeldoran Outpost as prescribed, both to easily activate Puresteel Paladin's trigger and to make tokens, respectively. Also threw in Mistveil Plains to help recur creatures/Squadron Hawk as said. Land count has been brought up to 23 - is that enough?
In the creature department, I've taken everyone's advice and scrapped the Quest plan. No more Memnite/Ornithopter/Glint Hawk, instead replaced with +4 Stonehewer Giant and brought Puresteel Paladin up to a full playset. The Giant seems to be pretty awesome in this deck. I've kept Mom in there for now, because why not, I feel like she would always be nice to have around. Perhaps I should omit her for Steelshaper's Gift? I'm not sure yet.
I replaced Quest for the Holy Relic with +4 Luminarch Ascension. Thanks for that idea, Giblets. This card is badass in multiplayer. Not only can it produce tokens quickly and give me extra buff bodies for my equipment, but I can also wipe the board with a Wrath if need be, and pump out replacement bodies quickly. Speaking of which...
Cut Swords to Plowshares completely, replaced with a full set of Wrath of God.
I haven't had a chance to really test this deck yet, but it seems to play like your typical Stoneblade/Cawblade or Voltron deck, with a more multiplayer-viable cards. Again thanks for your suggestions. How does it look now?
Hey. I've recently put together a deck centered around Quest for the Holy Relic just for fun, since I had most of the cards. I used the decklist in the "White Weenie" primer as a basis. Here is what I have:
Changes from the primer list:
-2 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Wrath of God - Because sometimes you just need to nuke the board, and StP loses some of its luster in a multiplayer environment. Perhaps I should cut StP altogether and get a full playset of ***?
-2 Wall of Omens, +2 Land Tax - Since Land Tax is pretty much awesome in multiplayer, I feel like it will work much better in thinning out my deck rather than drawing a single card off the wall.
Basically, I am looking for ways to make this deck more competitive in a multiplayer environment. It's actually not too bad as it is, but I feel like it could still be better. What other changes should I make? Having some recursion for my artifacts and enchantments would be nice in case they get blown up... maybe find a way to fit Open the Vaults in there somehow?
I have a casual Enchanted Evening deck that I sometimes mess around with on Cockatrice, but I like the interesting direction you've taken with it by adding the tribal Knights element.
I'd say GW is the way to go. Knights + Auras that benefit from Enchanted Evening being in play, such as Ancestral Mask, and then put in Calming Verse and Primeval Light as maybe an alternate win condition to just blow up the board?
My only concern would be that Knights + the Enchanted Evening combo would be trying to do too much. You would also probably need a good way to find Enchanted Evening in the first place, so Idyllic Tutor might be necessary.
Hey guys, i'm quite new to this deck and I'm trying it out for fun.
Noob question:
Can I Time Spiral with Cunning Wish for Blue Sun's Zenith on the stack, so I don't have to get rid of Wish once the Spiral resolves? And then I'll get BSZ in my hand after Spiral resolves?
Thanks very much with your help and suggestions guys. I've decided to test the UBg Jace Control route, and I'll probably build Storm as well. Here is what I've conjured up. I'm generally liking how it plays so far:
Like the title says. I just started playing Vintage, and I'm currently looking for help in deciding which deck to build.
A little about what I like to play - I enjoy nonlinear decks with decision trees. It seems like most vintage decks fit this description somewhat given the complexities of the format, and since many have more than one way to win. I also like toolboxy effects - I have fun with decks with a lot of tutor abilities, being able to find answers to many situations.
So given that I like nonlinear strategies, versatile gameplans, and tutor effects, which deck do you all think would be right for me? Perhaps some form of blue-based control? I'm not sure if I want to play MUD, since it seems to be the most popular deck right now, and I hate doing things that everyone else is doing.
Except the problem with Peacekeeper for Maverick is, how is Maverick itself supposed to win?
Stalling until you draw enough removal spells, while they could easily have counters or bounce in hand (or use Griselbrand to hopefully draw into it) seems unrealistic.
Metamorph's ability does not actually target Progenitus, so it can copy it. Then they both die due to the Legendary Creature rule, and are shuffled back into their owners' libraries.
Anyway, yes, Game 1 against Hive Mind is not easy. A turn 2 or 3 Gaddock Teeg is just about your only hope.
Edit: Thalia can also delay them from S&T for a turn or two, allowing you to hopefully find/tutor Teeg.
If Hive Mind is a big part of your meta, you might want to think about adding Angel's Grace to your sideboard. Other helpful sideboard cards include any of the Circle of Protections, which shields you from Progenitus. Choose Circle of Protection: Red though, to also give you added sideboard tech against Burn. Phyrexian Metamorph in your sideboard is also a must-have. You can also use Oblivion Ring on Emrakul (he only has protection from colored spells, not colored abilities).
When playing Game 1, you do not have access to your sideboard yet, so try to look for an opener with either Karakas or Knight of the Reliquary. When they Show and Tell, you can drop your Knight in response, and then use it to tutor up Karakas. This only works on Emrakul though. Qasali Pridemage is also good to have around, since it can blow up Sneak Attack.
Once you've got access to your sideboard, look for hands with relevant cards, and drop a Metamorph in response to whatever they Show & Tell out. These are not easy matchups however. It is definitely not in your favor - it just depends if you can draw enough hate.
i like it, except for the ethersworn canonists. I don't think you have to run meddling AND canonist. I think one of the 2 is enough and meddling mage is the better one IMO against sneak n show etc...
you could remove 2 canonists and a bojuka bog for 3 extractions or you could remove 2 ethersworns for a scavenging ooze and another piece of grave hate?
I do like having Bojuka Bog in there because it's tutorable with Knight. So I'm thinking -2 Canonist, +1 Scavenging Ooze and +1 Tormod's Crypt. Does that sound okay? My only concern would be that it might be a bit slower than 3 Extractions, in which case I could be persuaded to go that route.
Do you really need 2 Karakas? You have Knight to fetch it up. I'm guessing you're wanting a spare in case the first one gets Wasted?
Yes. But I have been thinking of replacing it with a Maze of Ith. However, is 22 lands + Maze enough?
Thanks very much for your help. Like you, I've also considered the SFM package to be a bit too slow right now. If tribal decks start becoming popular around me again like Goblins, Elves, and Merfolk, I'll consider putting it back in and adjusting the sideboard accordingly.
Anyway, this is how my sideboard has shaped up after your advice:
Decided to go with COP: Red over my usual choice of Warmth because of its dual function of negating Progenitus. Really wanted to fit Surgical Extraction in there somewhere, but I can't find room. How's it look?
Hey guys. I am new to the Bant archetype. This is my first crack at a deck list. My main concern with this deck is beating combo, but my meta also consists of Burn, Affinity, and sometimes Sneak & Show. Do you guys have any suggestions? Does GSZ work well with this type of deck? Also, what else should I put in my sideboard?
Since you already have Maverick built, you could always just throw in blue and play Bant. Bant will shore-up your matches against combo and allows you to play aggro or control depending on what you're playing against, so the games are not always linear.
That is actually a pretty good idea. I thought about playing Bant since I have most of the cards for it. I like the fact that it's very customizable to many different metas. I might give it a try.
After initially scrapping Memnite, Ornithopter and Glint Hawk as prescribed for more multiplayer-friendly cards, I came to the realization that the Quest gameplan is basically useless at this point, as Giblets pointed out.
Peep what I'm rolling now:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Stonehewer Giant
Sorcery
4 Wrath of God
Enchantment
4 Luminarch Ascension
2 Land Tax
1 Argentum Armor
1 Batterskull
1 Heartseeker
1 Loxodon Warhammer
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
13 Plains
4 Ancient Den
3 Darksteel Citadel
1 Kjeldoran Outpost
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
As you can see, I made many changes. Land-wise, I've thrown in Darksteel Citadel and Kjeldoran Outpost as prescribed, both to easily activate Puresteel Paladin's trigger and to make tokens, respectively. Also threw in Mistveil Plains to help recur creatures/Squadron Hawk as said. Land count has been brought up to 23 - is that enough?
In the creature department, I've taken everyone's advice and scrapped the Quest plan. No more Memnite/Ornithopter/Glint Hawk, instead replaced with +4 Stonehewer Giant and brought Puresteel Paladin up to a full playset. The Giant seems to be pretty awesome in this deck. I've kept Mom in there for now, because why not, I feel like she would always be nice to have around. Perhaps I should omit her for Steelshaper's Gift? I'm not sure yet.
I replaced Quest for the Holy Relic with +4 Luminarch Ascension. Thanks for that idea, Giblets. This card is badass in multiplayer. Not only can it produce tokens quickly and give me extra buff bodies for my equipment, but I can also wipe the board with a Wrath if need be, and pump out replacement bodies quickly. Speaking of which...
Cut Swords to Plowshares completely, replaced with a full set of Wrath of God.
I haven't had a chance to really test this deck yet, but it seems to play like your typical Stoneblade/Cawblade or Voltron deck, with a more multiplayer-viable cards. Again thanks for your suggestions. How does it look now?
4 Glint Hawk
4 Mother of Runes
4 Ornithopter
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Memnite
2 Puresteel Paladin
4 Quest for the Holy Relic
2 Land Tax
Spell
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
Artifact
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Argentum Armor
16 Plains
4 Ancient Den
Changes from the primer list:
-2 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Wrath of God - Because sometimes you just need to nuke the board, and StP loses some of its luster in a multiplayer environment. Perhaps I should cut StP altogether and get a full playset of ***?
-2 Wall of Omens, +2 Land Tax - Since Land Tax is pretty much awesome in multiplayer, I feel like it will work much better in thinning out my deck rather than drawing a single card off the wall.
Basically, I am looking for ways to make this deck more competitive in a multiplayer environment. It's actually not too bad as it is, but I feel like it could still be better. What other changes should I make? Having some recursion for my artifacts and enchantments would be nice in case they get blown up... maybe find a way to fit Open the Vaults in there somehow?
I'd say GW is the way to go. Knights + Auras that benefit from Enchanted Evening being in play, such as Ancestral Mask, and then put in Calming Verse and Primeval Light as maybe an alternate win condition to just blow up the board?
My only concern would be that Knights + the Enchanted Evening combo would be trying to do too much. You would also probably need a good way to find Enchanted Evening in the first place, so Idyllic Tutor might be necessary.
Noob question:
Can I Time Spiral with Cunning Wish for Blue Sun's Zenith on the stack, so I don't have to get rid of Wish once the Spiral resolves? And then I'll get BSZ in my hand after Spiral resolves?
4 Dark Confidant
2 Trygon Predator
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Blightsteel Colossus
Spells:
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Mana Drain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Tinker
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
Planeswalkers:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Land:
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Nature’s Claim
3 Flusterstorm
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Pithing Needle
Any suggestions? Lots of MUD and Storm in my local meta.
A little about what I like to play - I enjoy nonlinear decks with decision trees. It seems like most vintage decks fit this description somewhat given the complexities of the format, and since many have more than one way to win. I also like toolboxy effects - I have fun with decks with a lot of tutor abilities, being able to find answers to many situations.
So given that I like nonlinear strategies, versatile gameplans, and tutor effects, which deck do you all think would be right for me? Perhaps some form of blue-based control? I'm not sure if I want to play MUD, since it seems to be the most popular deck right now, and I hate doing things that everyone else is doing.
Stalling until you draw enough removal spells, while they could easily have counters or bounce in hand (or use Griselbrand to hopefully draw into it) seems unrealistic.
Anyway, yes, Game 1 against Hive Mind is not easy. A turn 2 or 3 Gaddock Teeg is just about your only hope.
Edit: Thalia can also delay them from S&T for a turn or two, allowing you to hopefully find/tutor Teeg.
When playing Game 1, you do not have access to your sideboard yet, so try to look for an opener with either Karakas or Knight of the Reliquary. When they Show and Tell, you can drop your Knight in response, and then use it to tutor up Karakas. This only works on Emrakul though. Qasali Pridemage is also good to have around, since it can blow up Sneak Attack.
Once you've got access to your sideboard, look for hands with relevant cards, and drop a Metamorph in response to whatever they Show & Tell out. These are not easy matchups however. It is definitely not in your favor - it just depends if you can draw enough hate.
I do like having Bojuka Bog in there because it's tutorable with Knight. So I'm thinking -2 Canonist, +1 Scavenging Ooze and +1 Tormod's Crypt. Does that sound okay? My only concern would be that it might be a bit slower than 3 Extractions, in which case I could be persuaded to go that route.
Yes. But I have been thinking of replacing it with a Maze of Ith. However, is 22 lands + Maze enough?
Anyway, this is how my sideboard has shaped up after your advice:
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Krosan Grip
1 Energy Flux
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Trygon Predator
1 Bojuka Bog
Decided to go with COP: Red over my usual choice of Warmth because of its dual function of negating Progenitus. Really wanted to fit Surgical Extraction in there somewhere, but I can't find room. How's it look?
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Noble Heirarch
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Dryad Arbor
Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Pierce
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Land
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Windswept Heath
2 Karakas
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Path to Exile
1 Trygon Predator
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Bojuka Bog
That is actually a pretty good idea. I thought about playing Bant since I have most of the cards for it. I like the fact that it's very customizable to many different metas. I might give it a try.