sign in blood i find my self sidboarding out 1-2 of them but it's normally for something like nihil spell bomb vs delver or something. They have a hard time countering it because of the life loss.
The problem with those that say 10 creatures is too many ignores the fact that if you run too much removal you end up in a bind against other decks. if you properly round your deck you can run this number of creatures and keep the control.
I personally use 4 nighthawks/2 lashwrithe/3 batter skull/3-6 other creatures at a minimum in my build ( i went uB lately splashing blue for 3 snap caster and 3 forbidden alchemy )
let's face it the only card that made this deck even viable these days is the night hawk and mutilate. Those of us using the lashwrithe and new lilli push our game further.
I run 3 phyrexian crusaders in my side because as said before it just ends games against too many decks right now.
The lack of pro red post rotation ( unless were given something ) is going to be painful.
The only card i have lost to lately has been sword of feast and famine and that was only because i couldn't find another geths verdict or mutilate to seal the game after reaching 10 cards deep into my deck.
On other notes what are your opinions on playing vs pod. I have such a hard time dealing with the amount of value they get out of the deck... do i just go old school and play torpor orbs in my side or what. turning all of their cards into vanilla overcosted creatures does sound fantastic.
OR i could just be evaluating the deckwrong and ignoring something totally ( well... i know i ignore the ETB trigger and kill manythings.. )
I sleeved this deck up vs 3 of my local meta decks ( the OP list ) I honestly don't know if i'm just playing it incorrectly or unlucky.
Vs zombies: their recurable threats ( no sideboard ) literally eat this deck alive if they manage to pull the same creatures as we do but hurt me worse with even a single blood artist.
Vs Wu humans: same things doomed traveler is the scarryest card in the deck because i gain no value from small pox.
Vs Delver: I have no idea how this deck beats delver. delver literally was the best match up out of the 3 but still inched it's way to victory on the back of a spirit token.
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my question to the masses... How does the OP list win lol? with no sweepers it's literally hoping you draw single answer for answer which never works out in this deck.
a sweeper would at least put them in a bind with being able to say " hey better play your cards or i'll just pick them from your hand " and then go " oop playing them was a mistake as well..."
Did the guy that made 8th just get lucky all day or what?
I do run karn however here is the problem vs trading post decks: they ramp HARD. they make many green ramp decks seem as if they are missing land drops.
My opponent dropped karn on turn 5 last night and had a land left over ( to do nothing but still ). I continued to attempt putting pressure on him to force him to deal with my creatures using karn but he had a never ending supply of dispatches. at this point in the game he was able to ~easily~ draw upward of 3-5 cards a turn or 1-2 and pull land out of the deck. I lost twice in a row to mind slaver lock.
If there is anything we have problems with it is artifacts and considering the monowhite version of trading post has access to all the same artifact tools we do that's all WE have to combat it ,they gain o-ring/dispatch/divine offering/nameyourblack~artifacthatehere without displacing much of their game plan to get wurmcoils out or just lock the game up and ignore you completely as a player.
the pure amount of card advantage they gain while cycling artifacts in and out is literally impossible to stop unless they screw up and cycle an extra trading post they have and we extract it, but seriously who would EVER do that against a mono black deck while knowing your graveyard is soon to be under attack.
I played vs a mono white trading post deck last night.. really irritating. seems much better than any mono black t-post.
and honestly i'm not sure how to deal with it. memoricide is an aweful choice and aside from finding a way to force them to discard it there isn't much were going to do about it. getting mind slaver locked two games in a row and having literaly no way to deal with it was honestly irritating enough to where i was furious that i even sat through the game and didn't just double scoop at the first card.
To those that support despise/duress: How can you honestly support a card like this in this meta... Distress is literally always better. even at BB it's worth it because you always get something out of it other than knowledge. so essentially i'm saying why run despise/duress if you don't have 4 distress
at times your thought is flawed however. because against delver they will be forced to allow you to get the value or keep an oblit( vapor snag it ). iether way you can equip up and continue your game plan with the 5 cards you drew ( allowing that they aren't 5 swamps )
infect loses to a single swamp mutilate 99% of the time.
Almost no one is playing the monoB infect any more, they are opting for the GU wild defiance build. and even then... single swamp mutilate and BSZ are their worst enemy.
MonoB has enough answers for a lashwrithe to make it laughable. you either lose 4 life attempting to attach or waste two mana. Also the versions running the new lilliana... you won't race them on swamps it just isn't going to happen. they don't even need to try any more after she hit's the field.
it's almost as if those that see the trading post lists assume that is ~all~ the deck does... do none of you see how the deck wins? very much like the same people seem to dismiss the m13 lilliana. it isn't the fact that you drew cards that may draw you cards... is those cards end up being what you need every time... much like UB control.. you don't run many answers ... but you draw into them consecutivly
against delver i have learned that sweepers are invaluable. they can't jump out of the way except with vapor snag which ends well enough for me. But a good player will just stop playing more than 1 creature to make my sweepers overcosted doomblades.
it's a relativly rough match just because the do run a few counters still ( if not main then definatly the side ).
Although as competitive as my LGS is... the meta never stays the same. sideboards are always less than optimal if you don't have catchall's. I don't know about you guys but LGS seems much harder to play at than a larger tournament due to the previously stated point.
I have converted my deck to run uB so this will likely be the last post.
The only reason i run the U is for 3 snap casters and 3 forbidden alch. having 4 sign in blood doesn't give you enough reach into the deck to get the answers you need and if you just end up seeing more swamps ( like i seem to do every other game ) the games end up going in a direction less than favorable.
Also here's a hint to those of you running the nighthawk/lashwrithe builds. Lilliana of the dark realms will END GAMES she contributed more often than not to me winning games than any other card in the deck, every swamp you get is 1 less than you can draw meaning : Almost every turn turns into gas or answers. her -3 is probably her best ability to be honest. I never used her ultimate unless i was playing vs control and managed to get her out.
argument falls on it's face when we have people running 4-5 forms of discard.
those cards have the same downfall except that they get progressively worse as the game goes on.
i run 3 lilli of the veil and she is never a dead card. she is free card advantage and as the games goes on she gets progressively better. Discarding anything that doesn't get you ahead in the game is your best choice because they will be losing just as much as you, if not more ( unless they started holding land and even then they end up getting behind while you are able to control AND play fatties ).
she is better in the mirror admittedly however.
she wrecks delver ( giest ) and Mono green ( dungrove )
To those that are scared of your oblit's temporarily stolen... just take the damage or kill it. I bring two of them in vs naya and G/R aggro just because it stops them from playing bonfire unless they are more than desperate ( turn from losing ). I wouldnt run them main due to copy effects though. getting into a oblit war isn't fun.
so let me get this straight you want to remove 3x reliable early drops that keep you in the game for 2-3 spot removal ( not even relevant if they managed to drop a hexproof creature ) and/or 2 5 casting creatures that have to stick for a turn to be useful.
lashwrite+nighthawk over those options anyday.
I see some one else finally added curse.
I am curious however... what are you guys calling when you drop your cavern? I assume vampire... but do you guys call a fatty otherwise?
if you don't like batter skull you have obviously never had to deal with some one that has the land to make it work.
ideally you don't play with batter skull unless you have 8 available mana or know you can safely resolve it and keep it until you untap.
gaining 4 life every time you swing or more if you equip a lashwrithe to it will win the game.
it's hard to deal with because when you bounce it you just replay it.
They are forced into a position to where it's chump blocking to keep from dying but you still gain the life back while having a blocker as well ( basic math says they need to swing for 9 just to hit you for 1 damage )
the argument of " it's been around for [X TIME]" isn't a valid argument. new cards being available can extend the life of any card and even make ones that werent relevent become something they weren't before.
EX: Dungrove elder is back in force
Reason: Rancor
your argument is closed minded and some times looking back is a good way to have something worth playing.
You think Delver was the way it was for so long because of people that thought an unused card was crap?
to rid your self of the undying creatures just in response the triger with any number of GY hate cards we have. the silver bullet as you say would obviously to board wipe some messengers and then surgical them all away so they can't come back. same for the crawlers. but honestly we can handle the crawlers the messenger hurts due to size and ETB
The problem with those that say 10 creatures is too many ignores the fact that if you run too much removal you end up in a bind against other decks. if you properly round your deck you can run this number of creatures and keep the control.
I personally use 4 nighthawks/2 lashwrithe/3 batter skull/3-6 other creatures at a minimum in my build ( i went uB lately splashing blue for 3 snap caster and 3 forbidden alchemy )
let's face it the only card that made this deck even viable these days is the night hawk and mutilate. Those of us using the lashwrithe and new lilli push our game further.
I run 3 phyrexian crusaders in my side because as said before it just ends games against too many decks right now.
The lack of pro red post rotation ( unless were given something ) is going to be painful.
The only card i have lost to lately has been sword of feast and famine and that was only because i couldn't find another geths verdict or mutilate to seal the game after reaching 10 cards deep into my deck.
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On other notes what are your opinions on playing vs pod. I have such a hard time dealing with the amount of value they get out of the deck... do i just go old school and play torpor orbs in my side or what. turning all of their cards into vanilla overcosted creatures does sound fantastic.
OR i could just be evaluating the deckwrong and ignoring something totally ( well... i know i ignore the ETB trigger and kill manythings.. )
Vs zombies: their recurable threats ( no sideboard ) literally eat this deck alive if they manage to pull the same creatures as we do but hurt me worse with even a single blood artist.
Vs Wu humans: same things doomed traveler is the scarryest card in the deck because i gain no value from small pox.
Vs Delver: I have no idea how this deck beats delver. delver literally was the best match up out of the 3 but still inched it's way to victory on the back of a spirit token.
---------------------------------
my question to the masses... How does the OP list win lol? with no sweepers it's literally hoping you draw single answer for answer which never works out in this deck.
a sweeper would at least put them in a bind with being able to say " hey better play your cards or i'll just pick them from your hand " and then go " oop playing them was a mistake as well..."
Did the guy that made 8th just get lucky all day or what?
My opponent dropped karn on turn 5 last night and had a land left over ( to do nothing but still ). I continued to attempt putting pressure on him to force him to deal with my creatures using karn but he had a never ending supply of dispatches. at this point in the game he was able to ~easily~ draw upward of 3-5 cards a turn or 1-2 and pull land out of the deck. I lost twice in a row to mind slaver lock.
If there is anything we have problems with it is artifacts and considering the monowhite version of trading post has access to all the same artifact tools we do that's all WE have to combat it ,they gain o-ring/dispatch/divine offering/nameyourblack~artifacthatehere without displacing much of their game plan to get wurmcoils out or just lock the game up and ignore you completely as a player.
the pure amount of card advantage they gain while cycling artifacts in and out is literally impossible to stop unless they screw up and cycle an extra trading post they have and we extract it, but seriously who would EVER do that against a mono black deck while knowing your graveyard is soon to be under attack.
and honestly i'm not sure how to deal with it. memoricide is an aweful choice and aside from finding a way to force them to discard it there isn't much were going to do about it. getting mind slaver locked two games in a row and having literaly no way to deal with it was honestly irritating enough to where i was furious that i even sat through the game and didn't just double scoop at the first card.
To those that support despise/duress: How can you honestly support a card like this in this meta... Distress is literally always better. even at BB it's worth it because you always get something out of it other than knowledge. so essentially i'm saying why run despise/duress if you don't have 4 distress
Almost no one is playing the monoB infect any more, they are opting for the GU wild defiance build. and even then... single swamp mutilate and BSZ are their worst enemy.
MonoB has enough answers for a lashwrithe to make it laughable. you either lose 4 life attempting to attach or waste two mana. Also the versions running the new lilliana... you won't race them on swamps it just isn't going to happen. they don't even need to try any more after she hit's the field.
it's a relativly rough match just because the do run a few counters still ( if not main then definatly the side ).
Although as competitive as my LGS is... the meta never stays the same. sideboards are always less than optimal if you don't have catchall's. I don't know about you guys but LGS seems much harder to play at than a larger tournament due to the previously stated point.
I have converted my deck to run uB so this will likely be the last post.
The only reason i run the U is for 3 snap casters and 3 forbidden alch. having 4 sign in blood doesn't give you enough reach into the deck to get the answers you need and if you just end up seeing more swamps ( like i seem to do every other game ) the games end up going in a direction less than favorable.
Also here's a hint to those of you running the nighthawk/lashwrithe builds. Lilliana of the dark realms will END GAMES she contributed more often than not to me winning games than any other card in the deck, every swamp you get is 1 less than you can draw meaning : Almost every turn turns into gas or answers. her -3 is probably her best ability to be honest. I never used her ultimate unless i was playing vs control and managed to get her out.
those cards have the same downfall except that they get progressively worse as the game goes on.
i run 3 lilli of the veil and she is never a dead card. she is free card advantage and as the games goes on she gets progressively better. Discarding anything that doesn't get you ahead in the game is your best choice because they will be losing just as much as you, if not more ( unless they started holding land and even then they end up getting behind while you are able to control AND play fatties ).
she is better in the mirror admittedly however.
she wrecks delver ( giest ) and Mono green ( dungrove )
To those that are scared of your oblit's temporarily stolen... just take the damage or kill it. I bring two of them in vs naya and G/R aggro just because it stops them from playing bonfire unless they are more than desperate ( turn from losing ). I wouldnt run them main due to copy effects though. getting into a oblit war isn't fun.
not only do they get the job done if i move the equip to something else i can easily enable morbit for tragic slip
lashwrite+nighthawk over those options anyday.
I see some one else finally added curse.
I am curious however... what are you guys calling when you drop your cavern? I assume vampire... but do you guys call a fatty otherwise?
ideally you don't play with batter skull unless you have 8 available mana or know you can safely resolve it and keep it until you untap.
gaining 4 life every time you swing or more if you equip a lashwrithe to it will win the game.
it's hard to deal with because when you bounce it you just replay it.
They are forced into a position to where it's chump blocking to keep from dying but you still gain the life back while having a blocker as well ( basic math says they need to swing for 9 just to hit you for 1 damage )
EX: Dungrove elder is back in force
Reason: Rancor
your argument is closed minded and some times looking back is a good way to have something worth playing.
You think Delver was the way it was for so long because of people that thought an unused card was crap?
NO one was playing with vapor snag before delver!