A few things I would like to note (and hopefully discuss):
1. There is no Ghor-Clan Rampager anywhere in the 75. It was a hard thing to abandon, and I've definitely blown many out with it; however, there were too many times I wanted it to be something else. It took me a long time to find a replacement for it that really keeps the smooth curve and pseudo evasion to the deck, but I found it - Firefist Striker. It seems bad on paper when you first put it there, but sleeved up it works wonders with the rest of the team. I was mainly struggling to find a reliable answer to Boros Reckoner, but it turns out this guy is an answer to a lot of things that stone wall us in all stages of the game. Since there are 8 hasty creatures to play on t3, triggering Battalion is easier than it seems. I could say more about how he fits the BTE chain nicely or how he really punishes Jund, but I'll leave it up to you guys to figure out if he fits your liking or not.
2. The full playset of Pillar of Flame in the main. I played a very similar iteration of that list for gameday (and won,) but all the cards came from my buddy. I haven't been able to follow paper magic for the past year financially, but my brother and I play MODO on the regular. For those of you who play a lot of online magic as well, you know the meta is aggressive as can be right now. I can honestly say I've been pretty happy with its performance overall instead of just for bonus removal for the creature match-ups. If the meta shifts to a slower pace, these will probably be the first to come out for something more useful.
3. 21 lands. I read up on this forum a lot (mostly from my phone on the go,) and I cringe every time I see a list with a relatively high curve/Stonewright/4 cmc creatures that only run 18-20 land. 21 Really feels like the perfect number. My opening seven are usually snap-keeps, and I rarely mull past six. I've tried to run 20, but there's just no way running a total of six 4 cmc cards in the 75; I'm a big fan of consistency.
With all that being said, I'm looking forward to hearing feedback and criticisms. I'm more than happy with the powerhouse Gruul is right now, and I look forward to continuing making it better.
Anyone else had progress with this card? My main problem with it is in the match-ups I wanted it against (vs Reckoner) I was also siding in Volcanic Strengths and Traitorous bloods... It might've diluted my deck too much.
Clutches is a two turn answer to multible blockers and reckoners.... T blood is a 1 turn answer and can steal hellkites and things to try and win right there.
I don't side in Tblood against U/w/r at all. Nightbird's Clutches is usually just what you need. That one combat step to get the team in is usually the difference between a win and a loss. I like to not consider the text of the card at all against decks that rely on single creatures to provide a wall of defense and instead read it as "Deal x damage to target player where x is the combined power of creatures you control." It's not the best card in the world, but hey Gruul doesn't have many options to deal with stonewalls.
Turn two Gyre sage, turn 3 BTE and Falkenrath Aristocrat, turn 4 Increasing Savagery onto Gyre Sage, tap to flash back onto Falkenrath Aristocrat seems pretty awesome.
Man that list is sweet! I don't know if I would max out on Silverhearts though. Aristocrat is good on it's own, so I think just using Increasing Savagery would be more than enough to put it over the top. Conscripts synergies way better with Aristocrat, so I would change those numbers around a bit to start.
Are rampagers all that good here? I think I like Dreg Mangler instead to keep the early beats on.
If you don't deal with Reckoner the turn it comes down, you will most probably lose; taking 3 to get rid of it and still get damage through is a trade I will take any day.
The four toughness means that Reckoner's first strike doesn't matter, and the trample means you only have to assign three damage to the Reckoner, rather than getting all four bounced back in your face. The bloodrush would have a similar effect for the bloodrushed creature.
This. If you rampage a creature that already has 3 toughness (Boar/Hellrider) the only card you lose is rampager since the 3 redirected damage plus the 3 combat damage from reckoner doesn't equal 7. So, all you lose is a rampager and they lose a reckoner + life.
Ghor-clan is our best weapon against a Reckoner-heavy meta. Even if Reckoner's popularity decreases, I still wouldn't see myself using less than 4; he is the real deal.
1st place finish running Gruul today. Will post the list and tourney notes when I get home. Played against Naya midrange, Esper tokens, Classic Reanimator, and Selesnya tokens in rounds, then lucky charms (U/w/r flash with infinite life reckoner combo) in the semi finals and the same Reanimator list in the finals. I was 3-1 in rounds with my only loss coming from Reanimator. Got sweet revenge in the finals though
I believe it finishes resolving, and then the undying and evolve (on the token) trigger at the same time. You are able to stack them as you please. Put evolve on the stack first, then undying. Undying resolves, wolf comes into play. Wolf evolve triggers, and resolves. Then the first evolve (from the token) resolves.
I'm not 100% certain if both triggers happen at once.
Edit: Almost certain this is what happens.
603.3b If multiple abilities have triggered since the last time a player received priority, each player, in APNAP order, puts triggered abilities he or she controls on the stack in any order he or she chooses. (See rule 101.4.) Then the game once again checks for and resolves state-based actions until none are performed, then abilities that triggered during this process go on the stack. This process repeats until no new state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the appropriate player gets priority.
Since both the wolf dying and the token coming into play happen in the same spell, they will trigger at same time, and we have choice of stacking as such.
After many games on MODO, that is 100% the way it works.
The only changes I have off the top of my head is -2 Mountain for 2 Cavern of Souls (when they arrive in the mail), and -1 Forest for 1 Stomping Grounds when that arrives. I've considered either Lightning Mauler or Rancor but I have to see first.
In terms of play-testing, assuming I'm on the play, I can often drop a significant threat T2 and by the time they can wipe on T3-4, I've hit them for a good 10-15 life and I just have to get a little more through.
You are running too many lands. I also agree you don't want Huntmaster in your list.
I put the 3 thalias in the side, but I used to run them main before. Do you generally drop her down ASAP (i.e. ahead of bte-mauler or bte-mayor)?
I think it depends. The creature chain sounds way better, but in some situations I think Thalia would come down before that, especially on the draw against aggro.
I don't know how to condense big quotations into a spoiler, so I'll try to address everyone's further discussion.
Names: Young Wolf is actually the worst card in the deck, but there really isn't a good replacement for him to do what the deck wants to do. As twacky_kid said, he is a great blocker and carries Rancor like a champ. We don't have very many creatures to choose from in green that are cheap with undying, so for now the wolf is fine.
Nemcon: Rapid Hybridization is pretty good in this list, not great, but pretty good. My brother and I are leaning toward going down to 2 and adding more bounce "removal." I don't even know if I would be playing this deck without Rancor to be honest. That + undying creatures is the real deal. I could see using a 4th Experiment One but seeing the guildmage in multiples isn't really impressive. Sure it's the oil that makes the machine work, but focusing too much on a cantrip takes away from aggression. After all, I would much rather get dmg through in a turn with spell than draw a card and pass the turn with a few untapped guys on the board.
Holynorth: Precisely. We race those type of decks and this is where our tempo side really shines. If you bounce an Aristocrat two turns in a row, what have they accomplished besides getting timewalked? Tragic Slip takes care of her just fine as well. Don't forget we should be laying on the pressure the whole game, it's not like we have to play reactively from the start.
Twacky_kid: I agree with everything you posted last, except the UU cost of Sleep. I have never had a problem casting it the times it has come in, and I much prefer it to Aetherize. Frost Breathing the board let's you do as you like with the board for 2 turns, not just 1.
With all that being said, I'm going to be tweaking the list to move toward more bounce spells to get damage through as Delver did when it shone. I'll probably start by upping the split between Simic Charm and Unsummon to equal 5 total; 3/2 seems like that best place to start.
Guildmage seems horrible with undying, and I don't think you have enough instants to run Snapcaster. I like the idea of using undying to evolve Experiment One and the inclusion of Rapid Hybridization, which really helps to deal with Boros Reckoner and building up your evolve guys. I would probably cut the guildmage for something else, not sure what though.
Guildmage is basically the whole reason to play undying creatures. GU to draw a card and reset undying is basically the theme of the whole deck. It's very powerful.
That is the list I've been running on MODO with a lot of success. It is very similar to the list that did well in London a few weeks ago. Rapid Hybridization is one of the best removal spells in the format right now in my opinion, so for those who haven't used it: don't knock it until you try it. Synergies well with all the undying shenanigans and can be a very useful combat trick in many situations with Young wolf, Strangleroot Geist, and Experiment One. But let's not forget why it is so good here; it destroys any creature we can't deal with for just one island's worth of mana. In a nutshell, 3/3s are manageable while some creatures just aren't. Spell Rupture will always be in the list since the creature base is large and resilient enough to make it valuable. With that being said, I have been the most comfortable and have had the best results with the creature base I listed. Delver just isn't worth trying to make good, at least not with green. RWU maybe, but not here. Using Dimir Charm to set up a t3 3/2 flyer is not good. The hardest match for this list is undoubtedly Jund midrange. Though I feel the odds are more in our favor post-sideboard, g1 feels nearly unwinnable, especially on the draw. Their virtual card advantage outclasses ours and their spells affect the board more greatly than ours do. Appetite for Brains is an absolute workhorse against them, but without some form of countermagic throughout the game it's just not enough. What deck(s) are you guys getting not-so-good results against?
If anyone has any questions regarding match-ups or wants assessments on any card choices in the list I'll be more than happy to discuss them with you
@Cassial: All your discussion in this thread seems very solid and true, not just opinionated. I can back up and support the logic you use, but I have a few things I would like to address concerning your list:
1. As stated earlier in the post, this deck wants to establish board presence as soon as possible to protect the life total. I fully agree with your assessment on Gyre Sage, but Avacyn's Pilgrim has proven himself to be an effective ramper in Junk range lists. Your RDW example is pretty narrow, so I don't know how crucial it is for the card vs. card analysis that Pilgrim can't block a Stromkirk Noble not only early in the game but also any time else in the game. Pilgrim gets you from T1 -> T3 for the epitome of board presence; it doesn't matter that Pilgrim can't block Noble or trade profitably with other creatures because a T2 4/4 elephant can. Pilgrim -> Fiend Hunter against R/x aggro decks is still a major tempo play that can really put an aggro player behind. Best case scenario for them would be to Searing Spear the Hunter, but to do what? Get a 1/1 Noble back that can't even attack? A whole T2 used to burn a creature to get a puny (at this stage in the game) body back to ship the turn over? I'm going to test a variety of early ramp combinations and come back to this topic with proper knowledge on the subject matter.
2. Like you, I want to abuse populate pretty hard. I've gotta ask why no Garruk, Primal Hunter in here? Everyone knows the work he can do, and it doesn't hurt he makes Call to the Conclave populate targets to boot. Potentially casting him a turn early, or two if you are favored by the gods, seems pretty sweet as well.
3. Are you satisfied with that charm/removal package? I'm not sure what your sideboard is looking like, and I understand it is always subject to change, but having Oblivion Ring at least as a 2- of seems almost necessary seeing as there is no interaction with problem permanents. So far in your testing, what has been the most problematic card to stare down?
Just want some more insight on some card choices/explanations because this deck seems more than viable and I want to help contribute making it work.
Glad to see someone catching onto Firefist Striker. The threat density of this deck is scary. Is Forge Devil that good of sideboard tech.?
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Ash Zealot
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Flinthoof Boar
3 Firefist Striker
4 Hellrider
4 Rancor
Burn - 8
4 Searing Spear
4 Pillar of Flame
Lands - 21
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
13 Mountain
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Volcanic Strength
2 Madcap Skills
2 Thunderbolt
2 Stonewright
2 Hound of Griselbrand
1 Firefist Striker
A few things I would like to note (and hopefully discuss):
1. There is no Ghor-Clan Rampager anywhere in the 75. It was a hard thing to abandon, and I've definitely blown many out with it; however, there were too many times I wanted it to be something else. It took me a long time to find a replacement for it that really keeps the smooth curve and pseudo evasion to the deck, but I found it - Firefist Striker. It seems bad on paper when you first put it there, but sleeved up it works wonders with the rest of the team. I was mainly struggling to find a reliable answer to Boros Reckoner, but it turns out this guy is an answer to a lot of things that stone wall us in all stages of the game. Since there are 8 hasty creatures to play on t3, triggering Battalion is easier than it seems. I could say more about how he fits the BTE chain nicely or how he really punishes Jund, but I'll leave it up to you guys to figure out if he fits your liking or not.
2. The full playset of Pillar of Flame in the main. I played a very similar iteration of that list for gameday (and won,) but all the cards came from my buddy. I haven't been able to follow paper magic for the past year financially, but my brother and I play MODO on the regular. For those of you who play a lot of online magic as well, you know the meta is aggressive as can be right now. I can honestly say I've been pretty happy with its performance overall instead of just for bonus removal for the creature match-ups. If the meta shifts to a slower pace, these will probably be the first to come out for something more useful.
3. 21 lands. I read up on this forum a lot (mostly from my phone on the go,) and I cringe every time I see a list with a relatively high curve/Stonewright/4 cmc creatures that only run 18-20 land. 21 Really feels like the perfect number. My opening seven are usually snap-keeps, and I rarely mull past six. I've tried to run 20, but there's just no way running a total of six 4 cmc cards in the 75; I'm a big fan of consistency.
With all that being said, I'm looking forward to hearing feedback and criticisms. I'm more than happy with the powerhouse Gruul is right now, and I look forward to continuing making it better.
-Kam
I don't side in Tblood against U/w/r at all. Nightbird's Clutches is usually just what you need. That one combat step to get the team in is usually the difference between a win and a loss. I like to not consider the text of the card at all against decks that rely on single creatures to provide a wall of defense and instead read it as "Deal x damage to target player where x is the combined power of creatures you control." It's not the best card in the world, but hey Gruul doesn't have many options to deal with stonewalls.
Man that list is sweet! I don't know if I would max out on Silverhearts though. Aristocrat is good on it's own, so I think just using Increasing Savagery would be more than enough to put it over the top. Conscripts synergies way better with Aristocrat, so I would change those numbers around a bit to start.
Are rampagers all that good here? I think I like Dreg Mangler instead to keep the early beats on.
If you don't deal with Reckoner the turn it comes down, you will most probably lose; taking 3 to get rid of it and still get damage through is a trade I will take any day.
This. If you rampage a creature that already has 3 toughness (Boar/Hellrider) the only card you lose is rampager since the 3 redirected damage plus the 3 combat damage from reckoner doesn't equal 7. So, all you lose is a rampager and they lose a reckoner + life.
After many games on MODO, that is 100% the way it works.
You are running too many lands. I also agree you don't want Huntmaster in your list.
I think it depends. The creature chain sounds way better, but in some situations I think Thalia would come down before that, especially on the draw against aggro.
Names: Young Wolf is actually the worst card in the deck, but there really isn't a good replacement for him to do what the deck wants to do. As twacky_kid said, he is a great blocker and carries Rancor like a champ. We don't have very many creatures to choose from in green that are cheap with undying, so for now the wolf is fine.
Nemcon: Rapid Hybridization is pretty good in this list, not great, but pretty good. My brother and I are leaning toward going down to 2 and adding more bounce "removal." I don't even know if I would be playing this deck without Rancor to be honest. That + undying creatures is the real deal. I could see using a 4th Experiment One but seeing the guildmage in multiples isn't really impressive. Sure it's the oil that makes the machine work, but focusing too much on a cantrip takes away from aggression. After all, I would much rather get dmg through in a turn with spell than draw a card and pass the turn with a few untapped guys on the board.
Holynorth: Precisely. We race those type of decks and this is where our tempo side really shines. If you bounce an Aristocrat two turns in a row, what have they accomplished besides getting timewalked? Tragic Slip takes care of her just fine as well. Don't forget we should be laying on the pressure the whole game, it's not like we have to play reactively from the start.
Twacky_kid: I agree with everything you posted last, except the UU cost of Sleep. I have never had a problem casting it the times it has come in, and I much prefer it to Aetherize. Frost Breathing the board let's you do as you like with the board for 2 turns, not just 1.
With all that being said, I'm going to be tweaking the list to move toward more bounce spells to get damage through as Delver did when it shone. I'll probably start by upping the split between Simic Charm and Unsummon to equal 5 total; 3/2 seems like that best place to start.
Guildmage is basically the whole reason to play undying creatures. GU to draw a card and reset undying is basically the theme of the whole deck. It's very powerful.
4 Young Wolf
3 Experiment One
4 Strangleroot Geist
3 Zameck Guildmage
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Dreg Mangler
2 Duskmantle Seer
Enchantments: 3
3 Rancor
Instants: 12
3 Rapid Hybridization
2 Spell Rupture
2 Tragic Slip
2 Simic Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Unsummon
4 Breeding Pool
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Hinterland Harbor
4 Woodland Cemetery
2 Watery Grave
2 Drowned Catacomb
3 Forest
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Appetite for Brains
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Dispel
2 Negate
2 Essence Scatter
1 Sleep
That is the list I've been running on MODO with a lot of success. It is very similar to the list that did well in London a few weeks ago. Rapid Hybridization is one of the best removal spells in the format right now in my opinion, so for those who haven't used it: don't knock it until you try it. Synergies well with all the undying shenanigans and can be a very useful combat trick in many situations with Young wolf, Strangleroot Geist, and Experiment One. But let's not forget why it is so good here; it destroys any creature we can't deal with for just one island's worth of mana. In a nutshell, 3/3s are manageable while some creatures just aren't. Spell Rupture will always be in the list since the creature base is large and resilient enough to make it valuable. With that being said, I have been the most comfortable and have had the best results with the creature base I listed. Delver just isn't worth trying to make good, at least not with green. RWU maybe, but not here. Using Dimir Charm to set up a t3 3/2 flyer is not good. The hardest match for this list is undoubtedly Jund midrange. Though I feel the odds are more in our favor post-sideboard, g1 feels nearly unwinnable, especially on the draw. Their virtual card advantage outclasses ours and their spells affect the board more greatly than ours do. Appetite for Brains is an absolute workhorse against them, but without some form of countermagic throughout the game it's just not enough. What deck(s) are you guys getting not-so-good results against?
If anyone has any questions regarding match-ups or wants assessments on any card choices in the list I'll be more than happy to discuss them with you
1. As stated earlier in the post, this deck wants to establish board presence as soon as possible to protect the life total. I fully agree with your assessment on Gyre Sage, but Avacyn's Pilgrim has proven himself to be an effective ramper in Junk range lists. Your RDW example is pretty narrow, so I don't know how crucial it is for the card vs. card analysis that Pilgrim can't block a Stromkirk Noble not only early in the game but also any time else in the game. Pilgrim gets you from T1 -> T3 for the epitome of board presence; it doesn't matter that Pilgrim can't block Noble or trade profitably with other creatures because a T2 4/4 elephant can. Pilgrim -> Fiend Hunter against R/x aggro decks is still a major tempo play that can really put an aggro player behind. Best case scenario for them would be to Searing Spear the Hunter, but to do what? Get a 1/1 Noble back that can't even attack? A whole T2 used to burn a creature to get a puny (at this stage in the game) body back to ship the turn over? I'm going to test a variety of early ramp combinations and come back to this topic with proper knowledge on the subject matter.
2. Like you, I want to abuse populate pretty hard. I've gotta ask why no Garruk, Primal Hunter in here? Everyone knows the work he can do, and it doesn't hurt he makes Call to the Conclave populate targets to boot. Potentially casting him a turn early, or two if you are favored by the gods, seems pretty sweet as well.
3. Are you satisfied with that charm/removal package? I'm not sure what your sideboard is looking like, and I understand it is always subject to change, but having Oblivion Ring at least as a 2- of seems almost necessary seeing as there is no interaction with problem permanents. So far in your testing, what has been the most problematic card to stare down?
Just want some more insight on some card choices/explanations because this deck seems more than viable and I want to help contribute making it work.