Forgive my ignorance, but how labman can win the game just with spoils + angel's ??? What happens if I appoint a non-existent card in my deck?? Or i need know what is my bottom card???
Thanks
If you name a card that isn't in your deck then it will reveal every card in your deck, exile them all, make you lose that much life and draw nothing. The idea is you do this in your upkeep and then win on your draw step since you have nothing left in your library.
Seismic Assault has exactly the same reach as Lightning Storm though, discard a land for 2 damage. Conflagrate is superior if you are really worried about getting more damage out as you can pitch any card to it. Honestly I think Lab Maniac is superior to both options since it is a non damage based win condition and it will get you a win in more situations than Conflagrate or Seismic Assault will.
Lightning Storm:
Pro's - Instant speed! / 3Red mana / Can brute force a win around Spell-Skite
Con's - Sometimes you exile too many Spirit Guides or Lands to go lethal
Conflagrate:
Pro's - Can discard any card / 3Red mana
Con's - Sorcery Speed / Loses to Spellskite / can exile too many Spirit Guides
Seismic Assault:
Pro's - Can draw it normally and play it, then go off the next turn / 3Red mana / Can brute force a win around Spell-Skite / Can win without combo
Con's - Not instant speed / Dies to enchantment removal / Can exile too many lands or Spirit Guides / slightly less reach than Lightning Storm
Laboratory Maniac:
Pro's - Can win with just Angle's Grace & Spoils / Doesn't win via damage thus wins vs many "counters" to this deck (skite/leyline/lifegain) / exiling lands doesn't matter
Con's - Not instant speed / Needs U mana not R mana / Requires you to either save 1U mana to cantrip or to wait until your next draw / Can exile too many Spirit Guides / Dies to removal (people will side them out but Abrupt Decay is brutal)
Still seeking for an explanation why everyone seems to be running scry and fastlands over shock and basics? I mean, scry is good and all, but i think it's enough with 4 of them? And I don't get fastlands at all. Currently I'm only running 1 Seachrome Coast. Why are they better than shock? Are you that afraid of loosing 2 life? Shock let's you combo off if you need to win that turn (let's say turn 5) or otherwise you loose, fastlands don't.
And one of each basic is alwats good in my opinion.
Thoughts on Gemstone Caverns? Thinking of replacing that with something.
Most people only run 5 scrylands so 4 is probably fine also. There is nothing stopping you from running shock lands, you don't have to do what everyone else is doing. Generally after turn 1 - 3 there isn't much to cast until you have the mana to combo off so fast lands seem like a good fit. In some matchups the 2 life definitely makes a difference, I've been thinking about trying City of Brass over Gemstone Mine but I'm not convinced there is enough benefit yet due to the life loss.
I mean, whats the way for combo whit him, since you only have 1 in the deck the idea its to find him by Spoils? or just diging till find it?
So Angels grace + Spoils, says maniatic, then play it and pass turn? wtf
You just draw your whole deck the same you would with any other win condition but instead of Lightning Storm you cast Labman and then either wait until your next draw step or you cast a draw spell.
I was then able to Spoils for Angel's grace in response, cast the revealed Angel's grace, followed by AdNauseam, putting all my deck in my hand. I Slaughter Pacted his Exarch, then untapped to start my turn, played another Angel's grace at my upkeep, played LabMan, and Serum Visions ftw.
Wait is that even a legal play? Don't you die to state based effects at the start of your turn before you even get a chance to cast Angel's Grace? I can't remember for certain but I'm sure I've tried to do this in MTGO and it hasn't given me an opportunity to cast AG before I lose in my turn.
You also need 1 blue mana for Visions or you have to have Phyrexian Unlife in play. You can make 1 blue mana by using 2x Spirit Guides to cast a Pentad Prism, which isn't very efficient and depending on whether you already used one or not may not work. Working out mana for the Labman play gets really tricky =\
Question for the thread: I've heard all over that UR and Grixis Twin are heavily in our favor. However,in tournaments, i have not found this to be the case, almost always losing the match to these decks. I was just wondering if anyone had some advice to give on how i can play better/improve the match-ups? FYI i am running the peer through depths/anticipate version with fetches.
It's possible that these are some of the matchups where the Spoils version gets a slight advantage, having not played the peer/anticipate version I can't say for sure. Out of all the UR Twin games I've played (only about 3 out of 60 matches I've written down) I've lost one and that was due to a missplay by me. Out of all the Grixis related decks (Tempo, control, twin, whatever) I'm 8 for 2. The key is to know when to go off if you think or know they have counters. If they are discard heavy it gets pretty hard, usually I board in 4x Leyline which goes a long way.
Ok quick fnm report. I went 3-1 and it was my first time playing the deck.
Round 1 vs Living End (2-1) Not much to say. Comboed off smoothly on turn 4 on both of my wins. The game I lost Living End was on the play and had a god hand. He swung for 16 on turn 3
Round 2 vs Merfolk (2-0) Game one I struggled a bit to find the combo, Unlife gave me the extra turn I needed. I comboed off game two, He had one dispel but i had pact of negation
Round 3 vs Grixis Control (1-2) My opponent had piloted Ad Nauseam before so he knew what he was up against. Game one I comboed off early. I had double pact in hand and it seemed he didn't have any counters. Game 2 I struggled a bit to find my combo, but I had time. He was loaded with counters, but I was able to play boseiju (I waited as long as I could). I was still missing a piece, and he started countering my prism and draw spells. Combined with a fast clock I lost. Game 3 I really struggled to find anything. I ended up drawing 2 simian spirit guides and both lightning storms (I boarded out one spirit guide which I don't think was a good idea).
Round 4 vs Merfolk - different player (2-1) I was pretty confident the two games I won. The game I lost she had a hand packed with counter spells (I think she was playing more than an average list). Phyrexian unlife was a key player.
Phyrexian Unlife vs beat down decks is often a life saver. It's also good if you have Angel's grace due to the interaction between combat damage and Phyrexian Unlife, if you're above 0 health you can Angel's Grace to buy a turn and still have Phyrexian Unlife on the board to go off with.
As for boarding out Simian Spirit Guide, the Primer says you can do it vs a slow deck but I just wouldn't feel comfortable doing it with the Spoils version. I've considered it several times but I've always decided against it.
This is absolutely amazing. Thank you for tsking the time to do this. I am using these notes at a PPTQ.
I went 1-2 tonight, which is the first stumble I've had with the deck. What are people using Esper Charm for? I brought it in against Jund and it felt to slow. What am I doing wrong?
Also, I had a situation where I sided out all of my pact of negations against naya coco, went to go off, he chord after I Ad Naus with Unlife on the table for pride mage and I didn't have the mana to angels grace. So i wont be siding out all pacts for a while.
The easiest thing to do here is to go off at the last moment, wait for him to tap out or to tap enough that he can't do anything. Sometimes its not quite possible if they're about to kill you though.
Your list pretty much looks exactly how mine will look during testing this week. Although im not sold on mikokoro and i will probably test Tolaria main.
Angel's Grace can't be countered already, Spoils of the Vault costs B so its impossible to use Boseiju with it, ditto for Cantrips, Lightning storm is not so important because by that time you've drawn your deck and have Pacts.
I prefer sleight over visions in most situations, since it gives you more control over your immediate draw. T1 sleight finding a Lotus Bloom feels so damn good. In slower match ups visions definitely has the advantage however.
Obviously Silence come in against counter based decks. I also bring it in against Tron as well as other combo decks.
Against control I use it as a "bait" spell when the combo is assembled. It goes without saying, if it resolves, then you are good to go.
Tron, in their upkeep on the turn you think/know(based on ex-maps and sylvan scrying) they assembling Tron. One turn can often be the difference.
Combo decks, use when appropriate that will hamper their game plan or slow them down. For example silencing against Scapeshift when a search for tomorrow is coming off suspend is just straight value.
I think he meant what do we do against it.
I would say it depends on the situation, usually you board out Pact of Negation in the matchups that they will bring in Silence (except UW control) so you don't have that crutch.
Having a Phyrexian Unlife on the board is probably the best way around it since you can Ad Nauseam one turn and Lighting Storm the next, assuming he tries to Silence in response and not in your upkeep before you cast stuff. Otherwise you could try and bait it if you have multiple combo pieces but if you have the mana for that then they will probably see what you're doing. It's hard to play around that's for sure.
If you name a card that isn't in your deck then it will reveal every card in your deck, exile them all, make you lose that much life and draw nothing. The idea is you do this in your upkeep and then win on your draw step since you have nothing left in your library.
Lightning Storm:
Pro's - Instant speed! / 3Red mana / Can brute force a win around Spell-Skite
Con's - Sometimes you exile too many Spirit Guides or Lands to go lethal
Conflagrate:
Pro's - Can discard any card / 3Red mana
Con's - Sorcery Speed / Loses to Spellskite / can exile too many Spirit Guides
Seismic Assault:
Pro's - Can draw it normally and play it, then go off the next turn / 3Red mana / Can brute force a win around Spell-Skite / Can win without combo
Con's - Not instant speed / Dies to enchantment removal / Can exile too many lands or Spirit Guides / slightly less reach than Lightning Storm
Laboratory Maniac:
Pro's - Can win with just Angle's Grace & Spoils / Doesn't win via damage thus wins vs many "counters" to this deck (skite/leyline/lifegain) / exiling lands doesn't matter
Con's - Not instant speed / Needs U mana not R mana / Requires you to either save 1U mana to cantrip or to wait until your next draw / Can exile too many Spirit Guides / Dies to removal (people will side them out but Abrupt Decay is brutal)
Most people only run 5 scrylands so 4 is probably fine also. There is nothing stopping you from running shock lands, you don't have to do what everyone else is doing. Generally after turn 1 - 3 there isn't much to cast until you have the mana to combo off so fast lands seem like a good fit. In some matchups the 2 life definitely makes a difference, I've been thinking about trying City of Brass over Gemstone Mine but I'm not convinced there is enough benefit yet due to the life loss.
You just draw your whole deck the same you would with any other win condition but instead of Lightning Storm you cast Labman and then either wait until your next draw step or you cast a draw spell.
Wait is that even a legal play? Don't you die to state based effects at the start of your turn before you even get a chance to cast Angel's Grace? I can't remember for certain but I'm sure I've tried to do this in MTGO and it hasn't given me an opportunity to cast AG before I lose in my turn.
You also need 1 blue mana for Visions or you have to have Phyrexian Unlife in play. You can make 1 blue mana by using 2x Spirit Guides to cast a Pentad Prism, which isn't very efficient and depending on whether you already used one or not may not work. Working out mana for the Labman play gets really tricky =\
It's possible that these are some of the matchups where the Spoils version gets a slight advantage, having not played the peer/anticipate version I can't say for sure. Out of all the UR Twin games I've played (only about 3 out of 60 matches I've written down) I've lost one and that was due to a missplay by me. Out of all the Grixis related decks (Tempo, control, twin, whatever) I'm 8 for 2. The key is to know when to go off if you think or know they have counters. If they are discard heavy it gets pretty hard, usually I board in 4x Leyline which goes a long way.
Phyrexian Unlife vs beat down decks is often a life saver. It's also good if you have Angel's grace due to the interaction between combat damage and Phyrexian Unlife, if you're above 0 health you can Angel's Grace to buy a turn and still have Phyrexian Unlife on the board to go off with.
As for boarding out Simian Spirit Guide, the Primer says you can do it vs a slow deck but I just wouldn't feel comfortable doing it with the Spoils version. I've considered it several times but I've always decided against it.
My girlfriend says she is very jealous
The easiest thing to do here is to go off at the last moment, wait for him to tap out or to tap enough that he can't do anything. Sometimes its not quite possible if they're about to kill you though.
Angel's Grace can't be countered already, Spoils of the Vault costs B so its impossible to use Boseiju with it, ditto for Cantrips, Lightning storm is not so important because by that time you've drawn your deck and have Pacts.
I think he meant what do we do against it.
I would say it depends on the situation, usually you board out Pact of Negation in the matchups that they will bring in Silence (except UW control) so you don't have that crutch.
Having a Phyrexian Unlife on the board is probably the best way around it since you can Ad Nauseam one turn and Lighting Storm the next, assuming he tries to Silence in response and not in your upkeep before you cast stuff. Otherwise you could try and bait it if you have multiple combo pieces but if you have the mana for that then they will probably see what you're doing. It's hard to play around that's for sure.