Even early on in my durdly Riku list, I had included a Kiki-Jiki because more copies of copies is pretty cool right? Well, at some point, I'd put Pestermite or Deceiver Exarch in the list and tried to go infinite because I thought it would be cool. I successfully went off once and got stopped once. Then I took the combo out of the deck because there were more fun things I could be doing. That is the true essence of what EDH is. It is not always making the most absolute cutthroat or "goodstuff" decision when building a deck, rather deciding to go with a play that you think is fun. I run Godsend and Jeskai Ascendancy because I love the cards, not because they are that great in EDH, at least in the builds I have them in. T&N lets you do some big flashy stuff, which is a lot of fun and even when it has immediate value, it not winning the game without being deliberately designed to do so is why it remains legal.
My only problem with this is that black lotus and the mox allow for big splashy plays too. The fact that are card allows for cool things cannot and should not be used to justify its remaining legal if it also allows for broken plays.
That said, don't actually want T&N nail banned; it's not that good in a competitive environment as no one should ever have nine mana available without having won the game already. If the RC changed the ban list so that even competitive games regularly saw 9 mana, then that might change, but for the moment, I don't see T&N a lot in competitive EDH. Too win more.
But that doesn't change my point, which is that it's the competitive players who need the ban list; no one else will be helped by it.
And I still haven't heard anyone talk about the SCG pods. People are playing EDH at big tournaments for money. That requires action by the RC or trouble will absolutely follow.
Meanwhile, I don't know who you're helping with "non-competitive" banlist. I don't know who that's for. Casual players don't need ban lists.
You have been told, in this thread, who it is for: People who don't have a regular play group. When they sit down with unknowns a base line is VERY helpful to know what to build to. If you go back to the same place or whatever, adjustments can occur. You are ignoring this, and I do not know why.
I'll tell you why. Because it does nothing to deal with that problem, at all. I play with different players when I play EDH. And I have to ask every single time, what power level do you want? I cannot just take out any deck and have fun, and that's true no matter what play group I've ever sat down with. Part of the issue is that sometimes, a play group will tell me, bring out your toughest decks, that their decks are all turned and ready to go. So I'll take out a tuned deck, sit down, and one of them will put out a turn 1 Llanowar Elves and act like it's the best possible turn 1. Then I'll play sol ring, mana crypt, mox opal, entombing some combo piece, and the whole table will go nuts because they didn't know power like that was possible.
Other times, I'll sit down, get told the group is pretty low powered and it's a bunch of guys with tuned 75 decks and my random crap deck can't keep up.
My point is that different people have very different conceptions of what power level means. Entrenched players are generally better at it, but even then there's plenty of problems. So getting rid of only the most obvious overpowered but inexpensive cards (because the RC has ignored what Richard Garfield learned 22 years ago; players will buy what's good, no matter now rare) all you do is make sure that small group of casual players who follow the ban list in detail is handled. Competitive players, casual players, none of them are helped by the ban list. And random players in stores with no play group aren't helped either because the ban list is so small an unfocused that you still need to have a complex conversation before starting a game of EDH. Every time I've failed to have that detailed comversation, to discuss what power really means, someone has been uphappy.
The ban list can and should be made a lot better to fix that.
deals with creatures that need to win through combat damage (within the vision of the RC)
Even in casual games, that seems pretty naive. It's not always a two card instant win (although most T&Ns I see are) but it's usually some powerful effect that effects the board not by swinging, but by locking other players out, or granting you some powerful effect, etc. No one is grabbing two beaters with no other effect with T&N except for the newest of players.
Sheldon, do you want SCG to stop hosting EDH pods at Opens? People play in those, for money. That is a competitive environment and it needs a competitive ban list so that the games can be fair and fun. I'm honestly curious what you think of those, as their very existence seems wholly at odds with what you want from the format.
Secondly, what point is the banlist if its not going to cater to competitive players? Wizards doesn't put out a Kitchen Table format ban list; casual groups self police. Every single one of them will handle a player who plays something that is disruptive to that particular group. The only people who need a ban list are the players who play competitively, which is an increasing group of players.
So I don't understand your position at all. I assume that I'm missing something, but it seems to me like ignoring competitive play is naive; if nothing else, SCG is supporting competitive EDH and that will guarantee that it's a thing. Meanwhile, I don't know who you're helping with "non-competitive" banlist. I don't know who that's for. Casual players don't need ban lists.
I think Zoo has a shot, but otherwise, we're looking to go back to the preKtK meta, but with even less diversity. Huzzah.
The good news is that this is just a guess, and I will readily admit that any number of scenarios are possible. Zoo, Fae, Moon, even some delver builds, all have a possibility of staying relevant (Young Pyromancer + Gitaxian Probe is still very, very good). But those decks all seem to be solidly second tier.
Dredgevine is probably still a tier 2 deck, as GGT doesn't really solve any problem that deck had; grave hate is just so strong and force of will isn't modern legal. Dredgevine cannot be tier 1 without dread return or force of will. One of the many reasons why rest in piece was one of the worst cards wizards has ever printed; it's mere existence invalidates dozens of decks. Bad design.
It's like Christmas all over again! Finally no more pod to plan every deck around, diversifying time! This is exactly what I was hoping would happen. Now I can dig up my modern decks and have fun again, instead of just folding to every pod and delver deck out there because it was getting stupid for some time.
What deck did you want to play that loses to pod or delver that won't be smashed by B/G/x? I'm struggling to think of any fringe decks that actually get better now.
TC ban is fine; everyone saw that coming. Pod ban is understandable even if it's a bit unexpected. DTT ban suggests that Wizards doesn't play this format, but maybe they had legitimate reasons for worry in internal testing (doubtful).
But with all that said, why was only GGT unbanned? That's my real question. It's one thing to gut the format if you then replace the banned cards with some cool new toys to keep players excited. Gutting the format and giving people one card back? That just screams "don't invest in this format because we can and will ban your cards." Seems like a very bad business idea, and a bad way to run the format.
You fail to understand that by banning those cards, they have actually unbanned many others. They even say this in the article but with different wording.
And after banning 3 cards, they have ONLY killed 1 deck. And that was because it was necessary, and no one can complain about that because it was SO OBVIOUS it had the highest power level BY FAR prior to KTK in the format. I've been saying this for YEARS (the first one in in this forum) already - pod was gonna get banned sooner or later.
So why so much QQ about these bannings that are truly unbannings? Junk is gonna be the best deck, but far from dominating and oppresive.
And yes, DTT is too much like TC. In fact, there've been writen dozens of articles comparing both and which one is better and which deck, because of the simple fact that they are SO ALIKE that you have to write WHOLE ARTICLES to differenciate them.[/quote]
I don't think anyone knows yet whether or not B/G/x will be oppressive. I expect that it will be, simply because it has always been, throughout the entire history of modern, except for right after DRS was banned, and then again when TC entered the fold. Absent those very special circumstances, that deck has always been the best deck in modern.
It's weaknesses are opponents having card advantage. So modern needs ways to generate card advantage. Well, all the ways to do that in modern right now are in Junk colors, which is a very worrying reality when Junk already looks like the best deck.
I am not saying that the sky is falling. But I am saying that there is significant cause for concern. Delver is gone. Pod is gone. What is left is one clearly best deck, and no real answers for it, except for Tron, if it can have a resurgence. We'll see what happens. Should be interesting in the short term.
I'm of the opinion that lands in general need to dirt cheap. Lands are the number one thing stopping players from playing competitively. That and mythic.
Also, to answer an above poster, I use my entertainment budget on magic cards. The alternative is buying other games. But for no other game do I worry about getting my money back. When I buy a Xbox one, I don't worry about getting my money back, no more than a movie, a nice dinner, my tennis racquet, etc. Why would I care about magic cards when I would otherwise just be losing the money?
Uh what. If i pay $150 for goyf today, i'd like to be able to trade it in a couple of months for $150 of other cards that I can use.
I'm not a collector. Not sure why people keep bringing up that argument over and over.
OR I could pay $150 for a goyf today, they reprint it in the next core set and the price tanks to $20 and now all i can trade it for is 1 thoughtseize.
No thank you.
That position certainly makes sense, and I don't blame you for wanting your cards to hold value.
However, I look at the problem for a difference perspective. When I buy a card, I mostly don't expect to get my money back. I know that I could, and yes, I do consider the value of my cards, but by monthly budget for magic cards comes out of a sunk cost budget, not my investment budget.
Secondly, I play magic in one of the biggest cities for gaming in my region, if not the country. And I still can't play legacy very often at all. The only place that runs regular tournaments has to make them proxy. Same with Vintage. They do have one modern event that isn't proxy, but even modern, they have to allow proxies in order to get people out for most events. And no one can get a non-standard, non-draft event going on FNM.
I have more than 10K in non-standard constructed competitive decks. Do you know what I want more than I want them to stay at 10k? To get to use them. I want Modern to actually be played at FNM. I want legacy popular enough that Wizards stops this block pro tour nonsense and makes legacy take its rightful place as the patriarch of formats. If my duals and goyfs and bobs have to be worth $35 each so be it. I'll make that trade any day, because I bought these cards to use them, not for them to sit in my house doubling in value.
So I definitely like that my cards are worth more. It's good to have free money.
But I'd rather play with the expensive cards that I spent my entertainment budget on.
My only problem with this is that black lotus and the mox allow for big splashy plays too. The fact that are card allows for cool things cannot and should not be used to justify its remaining legal if it also allows for broken plays.
That said, don't actually want T&N nail banned; it's not that good in a competitive environment as no one should ever have nine mana available without having won the game already. If the RC changed the ban list so that even competitive games regularly saw 9 mana, then that might change, but for the moment, I don't see T&N a lot in competitive EDH. Too win more.
But that doesn't change my point, which is that it's the competitive players who need the ban list; no one else will be helped by it.
And I still haven't heard anyone talk about the SCG pods. People are playing EDH at big tournaments for money. That requires action by the RC or trouble will absolutely follow.
I'll tell you why. Because it does nothing to deal with that problem, at all. I play with different players when I play EDH. And I have to ask every single time, what power level do you want? I cannot just take out any deck and have fun, and that's true no matter what play group I've ever sat down with. Part of the issue is that sometimes, a play group will tell me, bring out your toughest decks, that their decks are all turned and ready to go. So I'll take out a tuned deck, sit down, and one of them will put out a turn 1 Llanowar Elves and act like it's the best possible turn 1. Then I'll play sol ring, mana crypt, mox opal, entombing some combo piece, and the whole table will go nuts because they didn't know power like that was possible.
Other times, I'll sit down, get told the group is pretty low powered and it's a bunch of guys with tuned 75 decks and my random crap deck can't keep up.
My point is that different people have very different conceptions of what power level means. Entrenched players are generally better at it, but even then there's plenty of problems. So getting rid of only the most obvious overpowered but inexpensive cards (because the RC has ignored what Richard Garfield learned 22 years ago; players will buy what's good, no matter now rare) all you do is make sure that small group of casual players who follow the ban list in detail is handled. Competitive players, casual players, none of them are helped by the ban list. And random players in stores with no play group aren't helped either because the ban list is so small an unfocused that you still need to have a complex conversation before starting a game of EDH. Every time I've failed to have that detailed comversation, to discuss what power really means, someone has been uphappy.
The ban list can and should be made a lot better to fix that.
Secondly, what point is the banlist if its not going to cater to competitive players? Wizards doesn't put out a Kitchen Table format ban list; casual groups self police. Every single one of them will handle a player who plays something that is disruptive to that particular group. The only people who need a ban list are the players who play competitively, which is an increasing group of players.
So I don't understand your position at all. I assume that I'm missing something, but it seems to me like ignoring competitive play is naive; if nothing else, SCG is supporting competitive EDH and that will guarantee that it's a thing. Meanwhile, I don't know who you're helping with "non-competitive" banlist. I don't know who that's for. Casual players don't need ban lists.
Junk
Tron
Affinity
Twin
I think Zoo has a shot, but otherwise, we're looking to go back to the preKtK meta, but with even less diversity. Huzzah.
The good news is that this is just a guess, and I will readily admit that any number of scenarios are possible. Zoo, Fae, Moon, even some delver builds, all have a possibility of staying relevant (Young Pyromancer + Gitaxian Probe is still very, very good). But those decks all seem to be solidly second tier.
Dredgevine is probably still a tier 2 deck, as GGT doesn't really solve any problem that deck had; grave hate is just so strong and force of will isn't modern legal. Dredgevine cannot be tier 1 without dread return or force of will. One of the many reasons why rest in piece was one of the worst cards wizards has ever printed; it's mere existence invalidates dozens of decks. Bad design.
What deck did you want to play that loses to pod or delver that won't be smashed by B/G/x? I'm struggling to think of any fringe decks that actually get better now.
You fail to understand that by banning those cards, they have actually unbanned many others. They even say this in the article but with different wording.
And after banning 3 cards, they have ONLY killed 1 deck. And that was because it was necessary, and no one can complain about that because it was SO OBVIOUS it had the highest power level BY FAR prior to KTK in the format. I've been saying this for YEARS (the first one in in this forum) already - pod was gonna get banned sooner or later.
So why so much QQ about these bannings that are truly unbannings? Junk is gonna be the best deck, but far from dominating and oppresive.
And yes, DTT is too much like TC. In fact, there've been writen dozens of articles comparing both and which one is better and which deck, because of the simple fact that they are SO ALIKE that you have to write WHOLE ARTICLES to differenciate them.[/quote]
I don't think anyone knows yet whether or not B/G/x will be oppressive. I expect that it will be, simply because it has always been, throughout the entire history of modern, except for right after DRS was banned, and then again when TC entered the fold. Absent those very special circumstances, that deck has always been the best deck in modern.
It's weaknesses are opponents having card advantage. So modern needs ways to generate card advantage. Well, all the ways to do that in modern right now are in Junk colors, which is a very worrying reality when Junk already looks like the best deck.
I am not saying that the sky is falling. But I am saying that there is significant cause for concern. Delver is gone. Pod is gone. What is left is one clearly best deck, and no real answers for it, except for Tron, if it can have a resurgence. We'll see what happens. Should be interesting in the short term.
Cause holy God, your last paragraph defined me as a magic player, and I have to think there are more of us.
That's the red member of the cycle. I'd be a 15 dollar card barely played in standard if it were rare.
Also, to answer an above poster, I use my entertainment budget on magic cards. The alternative is buying other games. But for no other game do I worry about getting my money back. When I buy a Xbox one, I don't worry about getting my money back, no more than a movie, a nice dinner, my tennis racquet, etc. Why would I care about magic cards when I would otherwise just be losing the money?
That position certainly makes sense, and I don't blame you for wanting your cards to hold value.
However, I look at the problem for a difference perspective. When I buy a card, I mostly don't expect to get my money back. I know that I could, and yes, I do consider the value of my cards, but by monthly budget for magic cards comes out of a sunk cost budget, not my investment budget.
Secondly, I play magic in one of the biggest cities for gaming in my region, if not the country. And I still can't play legacy very often at all. The only place that runs regular tournaments has to make them proxy. Same with Vintage. They do have one modern event that isn't proxy, but even modern, they have to allow proxies in order to get people out for most events. And no one can get a non-standard, non-draft event going on FNM.
I have more than 10K in non-standard constructed competitive decks. Do you know what I want more than I want them to stay at 10k? To get to use them. I want Modern to actually be played at FNM. I want legacy popular enough that Wizards stops this block pro tour nonsense and makes legacy take its rightful place as the patriarch of formats. If my duals and goyfs and bobs have to be worth $35 each so be it. I'll make that trade any day, because I bought these cards to use them, not for them to sit in my house doubling in value.
So I definitely like that my cards are worth more. It's good to have free money.
But I'd rather play with the expensive cards that I spent my entertainment budget on.
But for know, it looks like standard is not going to change signification at all.