Eh. Mist always ends up small in my experience, but it may be because of the lower creature count of my deck, or my testing method (must survive RDW, Bolts and Arc Trails fly everywhere). Guess I'll try it again in a different build.
I think the reason I don't have any problems with Angel is because I have a fair number of low-cost spells in the deck, and Serum Visions helps in planning ahead (e.g. I'd happily set Vial to 3 if I knew I was gonna draw Angel). I don't really mind casting it at T4 either, as you still get the full value of the other spell you cast instead of just, say, putting down a Dragon.
TBH most of the time I don't care about protecting LotU, as much as I think the Mirror Entity interaction is neat, I've found building around LotU actually weakens the deck because it creates dependencies in a deck that already has multiples of them. Vialing in Image in response to removal can "protect" LotU (correct me if I'm wrong) and I guess I'm satisfied with that.
That new Illusion could've been playable with just a little more push without being OP... Seriously, it's worse than Trueheart Duelist in almost every way and even that guy isn't that exciting. Very disappointing as it could've filled one of the needs of the deck. Anyway, I've been trying to make a similar deck competitive for quite some time now and IMO what it's currently lacking are:
a good beater, preferably evasive, at 2cmc. Krovikan Mist sucks.
really just another proper lord, at 2-3cmc
I think I've tried every combination there is and read every thread lol. White splash is good for the numerous SB options that Black just does not have, even now that Black has Fatal Push, so I'm partial to UW. I agree that Illusory Angel is better than Illusionary Servant, even after the Gitaxian Probe ban, which means I'm also a fan of Aether Vial in the deck. And Snapcaster Mage has great synergy with Vial, so I'd say he's a good candidate for inclusion if you play Vial.
The other lords and Metallic Mimic... Well, they just kind of really fall short on what the deck needs. Illusions are big enough, what they need are protection, evasion or other combat-related abilities. I feel like if another good lord like Lord of the Unreal was printed, the deck would be at least competitive at Tier 3. As it is, Spirits is in a similar situation (only 1 good lord), but while they are smaller, they are much more versatile, almost all of them have flying, and they don't have the disadvantage of not being able to be protected with targeted spells or buffed with auras or equipment. That's what hurts most about the Illusion clause, dying to an enemy's Teetering Peaks second lol
Most recent cards I've tried were Monastery Siege and Smuggler's Copter. Didn't like Siege much, as I found myself picking Khans too often, which kind of renders the reason for including it moot. Copter on the other hand gives me hope. Lets LotU/Snap attack or block almost without reprisal. The looting option is good with topdeck vials/extra lands. If only there was a similarly costed vehicle with Crew 2 and somewhat better stats, as crewing the Copter with a 2 powered creature kind of diminishes its efficiency.
If you think losing sphinx's revelation is nothing, take a reality check because by that reasoning, losing Elspeth is nothing. This must be so because UB has nothing like Elspeth. Obviously, this is completely untrue and a fallacy but your logic that losing sphinx's revelation is nothing falls through the floor that badly.
Like I said, irrelevant to the discussion - it's about which deck is better on a budget, not which deck loses more power.
Yeah, UW has detention sphere. Its great. But let's look at your control package. Detention sphere, supreme verdict, azorius charm... and you're down to counters plus maybe celestial flare. That means that your answers to things on the board severely shrank. UB, on the other hand, has plenty of spot removal to go around. Doom blade, ultimate price, far // away, devour flesh, dimir charm, warped physique...
We both know that white has more than just celestial flare.
And when BNG comes out, they'll have drown in sorrow and bile blight.
As happy as I am about those cards being spoiled, they are right now, irrelevant. We're not talking about what U/B could be when BNG comes to Standard.
Yoked Ox. Dimir has nothing at cmc 1 that matches Yoked Ox. However, it does have a whole lot more answers on turn 2 than Azorius does and it has a fairly reasonable blocker in returned phalanx which actually kills things and lives where Yoked Ox only blocks.
The things that UW lost were all vital to its gameplan in all matchups and none were replaceable (unless you call opportunity a replacement for Sphinx's revelation but the typical UW control player will just laugh and tell you that while its the next best thing, you must be joking). UB mostly lost cards that it can compensate for and the replacements for said cards were weaker in two matchups but stronger in another (specifically aggro being the matchups that wins out in the case of thoughtseize and hero's downfall's replacements). This is a big difference in comparison to just being weaker all around the board.
I've already said it, but the discussion is not about which deck loses more power. You saying that U/B is better because it only loses a little isn't any more valid than me saying that U/W is because it starts with a lot. And this whole "what UW lost were all vital" is just confirmation bias. I can argue all day that what UB loses are just as vital, but there's the Dimir Control thread in Established for that. White can compensate for spot removal if needed. Opportunity isn't any better in U/B than it is in U/W no matter how you twist things around. I'll give you JMA being mildly better in U/B, but really, I know you know the reason he is seeing play is because he does work alone.
I get the feeling you're just being argumentative now, what with mentioning cards that aren't in Standard yet and being selective about White's other control options and that's fine, I'm also argumentative sometimes. But I no longer have the desire to continue after this so I'll just agree that you disagree.
There's an important difference here. Azorius' best replacement for sphinx's revelation is opportunity. It has no replacement for Elspeth, Jace, or mutavault. Dimir more easily replaces Jace AOT with the cheaper but more win condition heavy style of using Jace MA.
Let's remove bias and disregard cards that appear and would appear in both decks. There is nothing in U/B that would push JMA above (or even on the same level as) JAoT. Both lose JAoT, both cannot replace him with JMA because he serves a different purpose. Both can run JMA if they choose to do so. Losing Sphinx Rev is hardly relevant to this discussion as U/B doesn't have anything better than Opportunity anyway. Same with Mutavault. So really, based on your list it's U/W losing Elspeth vs U/B losing Hero's Downfall & Thoughtseize.
Hero's downfall would be replaced by spot removal, noticeably losing the ability to shoot down planeswalkers. This is hardly irrelevant but budget control will simply have this problem usually.
The difference between the two is that Azorius loses most of its stabilizing agents (almost to the point where you draw supreme verdict or you don't stabilize) whereas Dimir is just a little weaker around the board
And what does U/B have to stabilize that U/W doesn't? Spot removal is it's only edge and White can easily compensate. On the other hand there is nothing in Black right now that comes remotely close to Verdict. Hell, even Yoked Ox is better than any low cost defensive creature U/B can come up with.
Just because UW is a higher tier deck in its full cost glory and that UB is less so in its full cost glory doesn't mean that UW is going to be stronger than UB in budget.
Automatically yes, it doesn't. But it also doesn't mean that whatever advantage U/W had before budgetizing is suddenly gone. I can go on and on about this but really, I agree that what you end up with in the end is what matters. So are you really saying that access to Ashiok and a bunch of spells with bonus mill is better for control than access to Verdict and D. Sphere? Come on now.
Revelation, Jace and Elspeth are hardly budget friendly cards.
Once we start to invest some money this starts to change though.
Oh please. As if non-budget U/B didn't have JAT, Ashiok, Thoughtseize and Hero's Downfall.
Not even considering that non-budget U/B isn't really on the same tier as U/W, maybe first think how hard it is to budgetize compared to U/W and how crippled the end-result is going to be.
The low cost of Supreme Verdict alone easily makes budget U/W superior to anything you can come up with in U/B right now. And for the record, I have been keeping some form of semi-budget U/B control since SoM so it's not like I haven't tried to do it myself.
i ran mono-g but it's getting stale
getting read to quit magic though so i wanted something stupid to waste my time with. plus i never had a planeswalker before.
Apologies, guilty of not fully reading your first post. Anyway, ug aggro is doable, but you will still need to get some other cards (that aren't really expensive) although I think JMA will just be a waste of space.
Here's what I built today, Its really budget cuz I'm not willing to pay a lot for digital lands.
Anyway. Its UB Control/Mill with Red splash for Entering, which i've had some usefull plays with.
You have 9 lands coming into play tapped and 4 that are not able to produce a color by themselves, that is really crippling. Entering is not worth that handicap.
Returned Centaur is bad, plain and simple. It's like a 4cmc 2/4 that does 1.65 damage strictly to an opponent on entry. Seriously, any decent aggro won't have problems with your 2/4s coming down turns 4 or later. Use Returned Phalanx, Omenspeaker or Frostburn Weird instead. Even Hover Barrier looks good compared to Centaur.
And saying I'm wasting sixteen slots on creatures is funny when 12 revolve around milling.
I have maintained and played enough games with a control-oriented B/u mill deck since Innistrad, mourning the loss of Mutilate and Nephalia Drownyard while also trying and following millgro along the way, to say that yes, Nev is correct in that assessment.
Just take out some of the more expensive cards, you'll still be left with a decent deck. If you lower the curve a little you wouldn't need Sylvan Caryatid. Scavenging Ooze can be replaced by some other 2-drop. Since it leans a bit more midrange anyway you wouldn't lose much taking out Overgrown Tombs.
you need a whole lot of survival to get there. With 16 removal, you can do it but you need that giant chunk of removal. That's a big fundamental difference between his deck and yours, one that is the difference of whether crypt incursion is remotely reasonable or not (snip) So it can be done but you'd need to send the killing removal waaaaaaay up.
Pacifism was part of his initial list, in the form of Lashes. Banisher Priest may as well replace any of those other creatures he had. Thrill-Kill Assassin as well. Orzhov Charm takes the place of Doom Blade. Only additional Doom Blade/Ultimate Price is the difference between his initial list and mine, if you think about it.
I think you're getting the impression that the combo is the central part of the deck. It doesn't need to pull of the combo ASAP. It doesn't even need it to win. But it does give the deck another out, one that's not so easily disrupted. And occupying 6 slots at most is hardly restrictive. In fact he had 2 Incursions in his initial list. I mean no disrespect but 4 possibly vanilla 2/2s are better than 1/1s that only enable extort.
Crypt incursion + guildmage and the creatures are coming from.... where in a deck that's playing half of its removal as pacifism type spells? So turn 6 ending the game if you get an have an unusual number of creatures die, have a specific card live, and can resolve it.
I never said it was a usual occurrence. Like I said, more realistically Incursion will gain for 9-12, and yes, that's with 8 removal not actually putting creatures in the yard. Even without the combo that's not insignificant. And with the combo, which isn't really that hard to pull off being only 2 pieces - that's usually enough to win a game. I wouldn't really recommend it if I hadn't tried it myself against a bunch of decent decks. If you want to theorycraft on it, within 8 turns you may see 4 of your 16 removal of which 2 can bury something. If even just 1 other creature died within those 8 turns that's Incursion for 9. If you had 4 Guildmage there's a pretty good chance you drew 1.
I've played a similar deck for a while and I'd disagree with some of the changes above:
-2 Crypt Incursion, -1 Vizkopa Guildmage
Crypt Incursion + Guildmage alone can end the game as early as 6th turn if the enemy has prior damage and there are 5-6 creatures on ANY graveyard. Besides, the deck won't be able to "lock" creatures against any competent aggro: 1. this deck's creatures aren't going to win combat favorably by themselves 2. without mass removal you need to pick off threats 1:1 and 3. it is not packing that much removal to do so. More realistically against aggro you'll still be taking damage, against control your own creatures are dying; in both instances Incursion will most likely recover/hit for 9-12. Not bad for a 3cmc instant. As the Guildmage is still a 2/2 for 2, it's really not a huge waste of space even in multiples and even if you don't get the chance to combo off of it. 3 is IMO just enough so you see it regularly. I also feel that it's important to note that she can give any creature pseudo evasion (albeit expensive at 6).
+4 thrull parasite
What for exactly? It's worthless against most of the commonly seen competitive decks. It won't be able to stop PWs, might as well replace it with Pithing Needle if they're really the problem. It's ok sitting on the side but MD is much more of a waste than Crypt Incursion or Vizkopa Guildmage.
Alright, my advice would be to drop extort as a central mechanic. Not that it's bad per se, it's the card pool that is the problem. Like most other Rtr guild mechanics, extort has to be on an already playable card to be competitive. Out of the lot only Blind Obedience, Crypt Ghast & Tithe Drinker are good even without extort... maybe Thrull Parasite when you really need to remove counters. Once you relegate extort to more of a bonus/support mechanic, you'll have a few options available to you:
The 3 I mentioned are playable together in a midrange or control deck although with 2 colors and without shocklands Crypt Ghast's ability may get crippled. I also can't think of a creature past 6cmc to make the ramp really worth it. If only Griselbrand was still around. Anyway I don't think it'll be a bad deck if say, you put Lord of the Void or Necropolis Regent in the same deck as him with a bunch of removal for aggro and hand distruption for control. I don't have much experience with Crypt Ghast so I can't help you out if you choose to go that way.
My personal recommendation would be to go combo instead with Sanguine Bond/Vizkopa Guildmage and life gain: lifelink, extort, Congregate or Crypt Incursion (devastating if you face aggro and have been killing a bunch of creatures) - almost similar in concept but much more lethal. If you go this route you'll also find a few interactions that you can use as Plan B - Angelic Accord, Bogbrew Witch and buddies or Ethereal Armor and auras (Hopeful Eidolon, Pacifism). I prefer the latter because of less dependencies and individual cards are ok on their own unlike the former two. So you end up with something like:
Fill the remaining slots as you see fit. Alms Beast would be a good addition, although Desecration Demon is of course ideal but expensive. Thrill-Kill Assassin is another good 2-drop if your meta is saturated with aggro. Which if true then Blind Obedience on the side wouldn't be a bad idea. You could consider Gray Merchant of Asphodel but then you will have to change a lot as it needs devotion to be worthwhile. Duress is good vs control.
I think the reason I don't have any problems with Angel is because I have a fair number of low-cost spells in the deck, and Serum Visions helps in planning ahead (e.g. I'd happily set Vial to 3 if I knew I was gonna draw Angel). I don't really mind casting it at T4 either, as you still get the full value of the other spell you cast instead of just, say, putting down a Dragon.
TBH most of the time I don't care about protecting LotU, as much as I think the Mirror Entity interaction is neat, I've found building around LotU actually weakens the deck because it creates dependencies in a deck that already has multiples of them. Vialing in Image in response to removal can "protect" LotU (correct me if I'm wrong) and I guess I'm satisfied with that.
I think I've tried every combination there is and read every thread lol. White splash is good for the numerous SB options that Black just does not have, even now that Black has Fatal Push, so I'm partial to UW. I agree that Illusory Angel is better than Illusionary Servant, even after the Gitaxian Probe ban, which means I'm also a fan of Aether Vial in the deck. And Snapcaster Mage has great synergy with Vial, so I'd say he's a good candidate for inclusion if you play Vial.
The other lords and Metallic Mimic... Well, they just kind of really fall short on what the deck needs. Illusions are big enough, what they need are protection, evasion or other combat-related abilities. I feel like if another good lord like Lord of the Unreal was printed, the deck would be at least competitive at Tier 3. As it is, Spirits is in a similar situation (only 1 good lord), but while they are smaller, they are much more versatile, almost all of them have flying, and they don't have the disadvantage of not being able to be protected with targeted spells or buffed with auras or equipment. That's what hurts most about the Illusion clause, dying to an enemy's Teetering Peaks second lol
Most recent cards I've tried were Monastery Siege and Smuggler's Copter. Didn't like Siege much, as I found myself picking Khans too often, which kind of renders the reason for including it moot. Copter on the other hand gives me hope. Lets LotU/Snap attack or block almost without reprisal. The looting option is good with topdeck vials/extra lands. If only there was a similarly costed vehicle with Crew 2 and somewhat better stats, as crewing the Copter with a 2 powered creature kind of diminishes its efficiency.
JMA has no problems working alone. Even Esper, despite having access to 'support', does not use any of them.
Like I said, irrelevant to the discussion - it's about which deck is better on a budget, not which deck loses more power.
We both know that white has more than just celestial flare.
As happy as I am about those cards being spoiled, they are right now, irrelevant. We're not talking about what U/B could be when BNG comes to Standard.
And U/W on a budget cannot do this?
Frostburn Weird
I've already said it, but the discussion is not about which deck loses more power. You saying that U/B is better because it only loses a little isn't any more valid than me saying that U/W is because it starts with a lot. And this whole "what UW lost were all vital" is just confirmation bias. I can argue all day that what UB loses are just as vital, but there's the Dimir Control thread in Established for that. White can compensate for spot removal if needed. Opportunity isn't any better in U/B than it is in U/W no matter how you twist things around. I'll give you JMA being mildly better in U/B, but really, I know you know the reason he is seeing play is because he does work alone.
I get the feeling you're just being argumentative now, what with mentioning cards that aren't in Standard yet and being selective about White's other control options and that's fine, I'm also argumentative sometimes. But I no longer have the desire to continue after this so I'll just agree that you disagree.
Let's remove bias and disregard cards that appear and would appear in both decks. There is nothing in U/B that would push JMA above (or even on the same level as) JAoT. Both lose JAoT, both cannot replace him with JMA because he serves a different purpose. Both can run JMA if they choose to do so. Losing Sphinx Rev is hardly relevant to this discussion as U/B doesn't have anything better than Opportunity anyway. Same with Mutavault. So really, based on your list it's U/W losing Elspeth vs U/B losing Hero's Downfall & Thoughtseize.
U/W still has Detention Sphere.
And what does U/B have to stabilize that U/W doesn't? Spot removal is it's only edge and White can easily compensate. On the other hand there is nothing in Black right now that comes remotely close to Verdict. Hell, even Yoked Ox is better than any low cost defensive creature U/B can come up with.
Automatically yes, it doesn't. But it also doesn't mean that whatever advantage U/W had before budgetizing is suddenly gone. I can go on and on about this but really, I agree that what you end up with in the end is what matters. So are you really saying that access to Ashiok and a bunch of spells with bonus mill is better for control than access to Verdict and D. Sphere? Come on now.
Oh please. As if non-budget U/B didn't have JAT, Ashiok, Thoughtseize and Hero's Downfall.
Not even considering that non-budget U/B isn't really on the same tier as U/W, maybe first think how hard it is to budgetize compared to U/W and how crippled the end-result is going to be.
The low cost of Supreme Verdict alone easily makes budget U/W superior to anything you can come up with in U/B right now. And for the record, I have been keeping some form of semi-budget U/B control since SoM so it's not like I haven't tried to do it myself.
Apologies, guilty of not fully reading your first post. Anyway, ug aggro is doable, but you will still need to get some other cards (that aren't really expensive) although I think JMA will just be a waste of space.
You have 9 lands coming into play tapped and 4 that are not able to produce a color by themselves, that is really crippling. Entering is not worth that handicap.
Returned Centaur is bad, plain and simple. It's like a 4cmc 2/4 that does 1.65 damage strictly to an opponent on entry. Seriously, any decent aggro won't have problems with your 2/4s coming down turns 4 or later. Use Returned Phalanx, Omenspeaker or Frostburn Weird instead. Even Hover Barrier looks good compared to Centaur.
I have maintained and played enough games with a control-oriented B/u mill deck since Innistrad, mourning the loss of Mutilate and Nephalia Drownyard while also trying and following millgro along the way, to say that yes, Nev is correct in that assessment.
Test against WW/Boros Aggro.
It wasn't meant to be fast. Extort isn't exactly the fastest either.
Pacifism was part of his initial list, in the form of Lashes. Banisher Priest may as well replace any of those other creatures he had. Thrill-Kill Assassin as well. Orzhov Charm takes the place of Doom Blade. Only additional Doom Blade/Ultimate Price is the difference between his initial list and mine, if you think about it.
I think you're getting the impression that the combo is the central part of the deck. It doesn't need to pull of the combo ASAP. It doesn't even need it to win. But it does give the deck another out, one that's not so easily disrupted. And occupying 6 slots at most is hardly restrictive. In fact he had 2 Incursions in his initial list. I mean no disrespect but 4 possibly vanilla 2/2s are better than 1/1s that only enable extort.
Post #8, specifically:
also
and lastly
I believe it's clear I am not referring to it as an extort deck.
I never said it was a usual occurrence. Like I said, more realistically Incursion will gain for 9-12, and yes, that's with 8 removal not actually putting creatures in the yard. Even without the combo that's not insignificant. And with the combo, which isn't really that hard to pull off being only 2 pieces - that's usually enough to win a game. I wouldn't really recommend it if I hadn't tried it myself against a bunch of decent decks. If you want to theorycraft on it, within 8 turns you may see 4 of your 16 removal of which 2 can bury something. If even just 1 other creature died within those 8 turns that's Incursion for 9. If you had 4 Guildmage there's a pretty good chance you drew 1.
Post #8 and 6 cards with extort is enough.
-2 Crypt Incursion, -1 Vizkopa Guildmage
Crypt Incursion + Guildmage alone can end the game as early as 6th turn if the enemy has prior damage and there are 5-6 creatures on ANY graveyard. Besides, the deck won't be able to "lock" creatures against any competent aggro: 1. this deck's creatures aren't going to win combat favorably by themselves 2. without mass removal you need to pick off threats 1:1 and 3. it is not packing that much removal to do so. More realistically against aggro you'll still be taking damage, against control your own creatures are dying; in both instances Incursion will most likely recover/hit for 9-12. Not bad for a 3cmc instant. As the Guildmage is still a 2/2 for 2, it's really not a huge waste of space even in multiples and even if you don't get the chance to combo off of it. 3 is IMO just enough so you see it regularly. I also feel that it's important to note that she can give any creature pseudo evasion (albeit expensive at 6).
+4 thrull parasite
What for exactly? It's worthless against most of the commonly seen competitive decks. It won't be able to stop PWs, might as well replace it with Pithing Needle if they're really the problem. It's ok sitting on the side but MD is much more of a waste than Crypt Incursion or Vizkopa Guildmage.
The 3 I mentioned are playable together in a midrange or control deck although with 2 colors and without shocklands Crypt Ghast's ability may get crippled. I also can't think of a creature past 6cmc to make the ramp really worth it. If only Griselbrand was still around. Anyway I don't think it'll be a bad deck if say, you put Lord of the Void or Necropolis Regent in the same deck as him with a bunch of removal for aggro and hand distruption for control. I don't have much experience with Crypt Ghast so I can't help you out if you choose to go that way.
My personal recommendation would be to go combo instead with Sanguine Bond/Vizkopa Guildmage and life gain: lifelink, extort, Congregate or Crypt Incursion (devastating if you face aggro and have been killing a bunch of creatures) - almost similar in concept but much more lethal. If you go this route you'll also find a few interactions that you can use as Plan B - Angelic Accord, Bogbrew Witch and buddies or Ethereal Armor and auras (Hopeful Eidolon, Pacifism). I prefer the latter because of less dependencies and individual cards are ok on their own unlike the former two. So you end up with something like:
4 Tithe Drinker
3-4 Vizkopa Guildmage
4 Banisher Priest
4 Hopeful Eidolon/Yoked Ox
4 Pacifism
4 Ethereal Armor
3-4 Orzhov Charm
2-3 Crypt Incursion
22 Lands
Fill the remaining slots as you see fit. Alms Beast would be a good addition, although Desecration Demon is of course ideal but expensive. Thrill-Kill Assassin is another good 2-drop if your meta is saturated with aggro. Which if true then Blind Obedience on the side wouldn't be a bad idea. You could consider Gray Merchant of Asphodel but then you will have to change a lot as it needs devotion to be worthwhile. Duress is good vs control.