While Stoneforge Mystic technically isn't mana acceleration, it still allows you to bypass the mana cost of equipment, as well as push the equipment through countermagic and at instant speed. Wizards hates mana cost circumvention just as much as they do fast mana, because bypassing mana costs breaks a fundamental rule of Magic: you have to pay the mana cost of a card to cast it.
That's why Aaron Forsythe compared SFM to Tinker in the first place. Tinker is both a tutor and cheats mana costs. SFM does the same thing functionally -- it tutors for an equipment and lets you cheat the equipment into play. Forsythe didn't bring up the comparison of the two cards in the context of their power level; he compared the two cards because they are functionally very similar.
If Stoneforge Mystic didn't have its second ability, it probably wouldn't be as broken as it is today. You mention that Steelshaper's Gift doesn't see play, which is true. But that's because Steelshaper's Gift only tutors for an equipment and nothing more. You don't get a 1/2 body and you don't get the ability to cheat equipment into play as well. The fact that you can threaten to drop equipment into play with SFM as well as getting positive card advantage out of the deal (unlike Steelshaper's Gift) makes all the difference in the world. If you don't answer a resolved SFM immediately, you're in serious, serious trouble. And even if you do, you've been 2-for-1ed since you still have to deal with the equipment they tutored up with SFM.
Yeah, Wizards hates mana cost circumvention, that's why they continually reprint ways to circumvent mana cost. Phyrexian Mana, Delve, Cascade, most recently Unburial Rites - they actually love this mechanic. Force of Will (the whole cycle) Snuff Out, Commandeer, Fireblast - the list goes on.
SFM lets you cheat very specific cards into play, and she is a very limited tutor, attached to a squire. Tons of cards help you cheat specific cards into play, or act as limited tutors, neither get banned. When you combine them and make it aggressively costed, instead of getting an unplayable card like Etherium Sculptor or Master Transmuter, you get SFM. It is very good, not broken, except admittedly for a very short period in standard.
I already answered every issue you bring up with SFM in previous posts, refute those if you care to, but she just isn't a problem in older formats, I'm not going to go through and list the reasons why again.
Also, I don't want to highjack this conversation towards SFM, because that is NOT the problem I have with Modern, it is at best symptomatic of the problem, which is too many cards banned for the wrong reasons. I thought it was hypocrisy that they had a card like GSZ in the format but not SFM (GSZ is much better), but I would much rather have both than neither, and the same with Ponder and Preordain, or Jace, Ancestral and Bitterblossom.
This format feels pretty safe, other than part of Twin.dec I can't think of a single card you would want to ban - too bad it is also boring as hell.
If people want to build their Jace deck, their Faerie Deck, their GSZ deck, I think you should probably let them, chances are it won't ruin the format, and if one deck dominates, it is pretty easy to correct (if this is the philosophy as a whole, not in the current environment). It isn't like losing to Hypergenesis, Dark Depths or Elves on turn 2 before your lands become untapped, there are plenty of answers, you have plenty of time to play a game of magic. That's the type of format that excited people, that they announced, and not what they have delivered.
I was arguing with someone elsewhere that Jace was in no danger of being banned in Legacy, because he's just a worse version of Brainstorm, which if you have played both you know to be true. But seriously, would anyone play Legacy if they banned Brainstorm, Force of Will, and then all the fast combos that Force of Will is there to help protect against? That format sounds awful, but it does sound a lot like this other format I know . . .
It could be worse. Everyone could be playing hypergenesis and DDT. The format is how old? Its going to take time.
Remember when they announced the format, and everyone was immediately like, "WTF, Hypergenesis isn't banned, that's retarded". Then they did some weirdo team testing and Hypergenesis was the best deck, surprising no one.
It really isn't that hard, they had old big extended and OE to draw from, and they still missed it by a country mile. It isn't like when they first announced legacy and they had never done anything remotely similar before.
They got people excited, Modern prices skyrocketed, but now they are dropping like a stone because when you ban cards arbitrarily without testing the format is garbage.
Everyone knew Thopter/Depths was a problem, and Hypergenesis too. People knew Glimpse was an issue, it had been dominating OE since the first day it was unabanned and was the most contentious card in the format (which included just Dark Depths).
Jace, SFM, Visions, BB, Valakut, MM, (Cloudpost) were not known to be problems. Maybe Cloudpost would have gotten banned anyway, maybe ALL of these cards would have gotten banned, but everyone predicted Zoo and Cloudpost would be the best decks since they were the untouched OE decks, and lo and behold they were.
This banned thing really isn't that hard. They went out of there way to make sure a few boogeyman (Faeries, Jace, SFM) didn't ruin the format, so instead they ruined the format themselves.
Who cares if Faeries wins a Modern tournament? Who doesn't know how to beat Faeries, a deck that wasn't even good in old extended! Too many SFM in the top 8? Try Ancient Grudge! All the mana and counters in the world won't protect batterskull from Krosan Grip, and it doesn't even beat through a Goyf.
I think Glimmer/Cloudpost was going to be an issue without Wasteland, and I think Rite of Flame is just too good for a format that lacks Force, but they missed those the first time anyway.
The only people who were happy when they announced the Modern banned list before Philly were standard players sick of Caw-blade, not people who had tested the format (this includes Pros).
I don't think people have a tough time accepting that Jace or SFM might have to get banned - we've seen them banned from three formats now. I do think the philosophy that lead to their being banned before they were even a problem is indicative of the no-fun feel to Modern. Got a deck that does something powerful? Don't even bother, if it isn't a Goyf it'll be banned.
I remember people swearing off the set because it didn't contain Masques and we missed out on Brainstorm. Now we don't even have playable 1 mana filter cantrips. Not only did they get it wrong the first time, they are making it worse!
Trust me, I already figured this out. It's why I left Gifts for Junk. Confidant is one of the best card advantage engines ever printed, yet no one seems to play him. Yeah, you have to build with CMC in mind, but it encourages efficiency in your builds.
You don't need countermagic to play control. Removal works just fine in this Meta.
In a world of shocklands, Dark Confidant is not that good. You generally need an average CMC of 2 or less, so the only deck I know that plays him well is Merfolk. Doran takes too much damage off of thoughtseize and lands. He doesn't beat for enough damage in Zoo and is in the wrong color. He also makes Thoughtseize much, much worse except against pure combo.
There's no SFM to get Batterskull, no Jitte, so no real lifegain. Zoo plays 8 1 cmc answers, and usually 3-4 2 cmc answers, assuming you aren't forced to chump and he doesn't kill you. There is a reason he is seeing little play.
The reason this is right nowis because of the speed of the format. We are coming off a combo dominated tourny and a new ban list. Everyone is rethinking builds. Once they get the format under control and to a speed they want, all those cards will become much more powerful. Some of the bannings were because of what they invisioned, some of that hasnt come to light as of yet. If they format gets to the speed they want and SFM still doesnt seem to be a problem, then they can unban it. But there is no sense in unbanning it now and having to reban it at a later date when the format has leveled out.
I really feel most arguing for SFM unban have a play set and had to pay a nice chunk of change for them. They are blind to the power and how abusable she is.
I will agree Modern has been (so far) a format that historicly good to great cards of the past, are not all that in this format. Yeah there are a few, but most are combo pieces. To be honest, I enjoy seeing cards not normally played. Its nice to see the other 99% of the card pool used.
I sold my Stoneforges before the ban because I saw it coming in Standard a mile away, and I got them all through drafting anyway. The only people blind to the power of Mystic are the ones who think it is too good a tinker-esque, when it isn't. No one is blind to the power of all those other cards I mentioned like Dark Confidant of Cryptic. Do you remember the constant pleas for Cryptic Command to be banned since it was the most unfair card ever printed - I do. I don't know why you think this will be some grind it out format when Zoo, Affiinity, Doran and Twin decks are all top contenders, and while Living End can grind out wins it isn't exactly a deck I want to play SFM against.
There are actual 0 rogue decks doing well in this format, every deck is either an updated old extended deck or an updated standard deck. What other 99 percent of the card pool are you talking about? Zoo? Affinity? Merfolk? Seriously where are all these cool old cards popping up? Living End was around years ago, it is only decent because they banned all the better cards from better decks. I'm not saying we need to bring back Thopter/Depths to run roughshod over the format, but all these decks existed back then, they were just worse. The "newest" competitive deck is Pester-Twin - thank god they didn't just make a format where you could port over standard decks like Caw-Blade
It still doesn't change the fact that she fits into the two categories that WotC aggressively bans, Tutors + Mana acceleration. Do I think she's necessarily banworthy? No, I'm actually a huge proponent of keeping the banned list as small as possible. But she is something that WotC tends to ban pretty aggressively and thats why she is going to have to stay banned.
First, calling SFM "Mana Acceleration" is ridiculous. She has an ability that can save you mana on the casting cost of some equipment, namely equipment with > 2 CMC. They ban fast mana, like Rite in Flame, Chrome Mox, Sol Ring a.k.a. Cloudpost, things that actually accelerate you, not things that occasionally let you cheat a slightly more expensive card into play.
Second is tutors, which I already went over, are only banned when they are instant speed or unrestricted and very cheap. Stoneforge Mystic is neither. We are talking about cards like Demonic Tutor, Mystical Tutor vs. Enlightened Tutor and Personal Tutor.
The difference in cost here and being unrestricted tutors is important, compare these cards.
Vampiric tutor/Imperial Seal, B, costs a card and 2 life, sorcery speed, unrestricted tutor - Broken, Banned or Restricted.
Steelshaper's Gift, W, replaces itself and costs no life, sorcery speed restricted tutor - Sees 0 play.
Grimm Tutor - 1BB, replaces itself, costs 3 life, unrestricted tutor - sees almost 0 play.
Outside of CB/Top I don't even know if Enlightened Tutor sees any mainstream play either. Look at Mystical Tutor vs Personal Tutor. Type restriction, speed and CMC make a huge difference in playability.
SFM isn't anything like the tutors or fast mana they ban. I don't care if they compare it to Tinker, Black Lotus or Time Walk, they banned it, much like Bitterblossom, because they don't like they deck it represents and because people are irrationally angry at it. I doubt Jace would be banned in Modern if it had been in standard for 2 years with Bloodbraid Elf.
I'm actually unhappy with this format, and SFM is not even in the top 5 reasons why. Too many cards are banned or unplayable due to the format that has been crafted, and the ensuing field is not very interesting or diverse.
I've already stopped playing the format, Innistrad standard looks to be more fun, which is pretty sad given how new a format Modern is. You can talk about how big the potential card pool is, all I see is how small the pool of viable decks are. There is just nothing to get excited about in the format, Legacy has more interesting decks and Standard is fresher.
They banned a bunch of cards to make sure it wasn't a bunch of standard, extended and legacy ports, and it became of format of exclusively standard, extended and legacy ports, except half of the ports are missing or damaged.
But the thing is one you stick SFM you literally never need to tap out on your turn ever again, in fact you don't really even need to cast another spell, you can devote all of your resources to protecting her from there on out. And she not only cracked the top 8 in Legacy multiple times but was in fact one of the best if not the best decks in Legacy over the past few months. Not to mention she's arguably the best creature ever printed. Is she tinker? No but she does fit into both categories that Tinker does and both categories that WotC aggressively bans, Tutors and Mana Acceleration.
Again, that was Standard, welcome to Modern. Counterspells vs Ancient Grudge are pretty bad, ditto Pridesmage. You don't have FOW or MM, so Mana Leak and variants are your best bet, and they are awful in the meta right now.
Look at the decks you are up against. Merfolk, Burn, Living End, Zoo, Affinity, Splinter Twin and Doran/BWG Junk. Which one do you think cares if you aren't tapping out on turn 3? Have you ever played Mana Leak vs Affinity, Burn or Merfolk? Might as well mulligan. Living End actually has a better end game and control style of play than most control decks, and boasts better wins vs Affinity and Zoo than Tron or Teachings. Doran run 6-8 thoughtseize effects, it is pretty hard to get them with counterspells.
The conditions that made SFM awesome in Legacy and Standard don't exist anymore, especially not in Modern. There are tons of good cards that aren't good in Modern, Dark Confidant, Cryptic Command, Aether Vial, Mana Leak, Punishing Fire, and more than a few of the banned cards. The type of deck you are used to SFM being in isn't good, and likely can't ever be good with the cheap, efficient creatures and lack of efficient counters, especially given Aether Vial.
Don't talk about SFM in Legacy for the past few months, because she was the product of a warped MM metagame in which CB/Top was unplayable and Landstill/SFM were the new control cards because they had CMC 2. Now there is no cheap answer to Thoughtseize, or Top, or Path or Bolt or even Lackey. Now SFM is only fringe playable in BWG Junk style decks, or decks that are not considered top tier like Stax or mother of runes decks.
Tinker put an arbitrary artefact in play on turn 3. SFM puts an arbitrary equipment in play on turn 3. While it is true that Tinker's effect is very powerful, so is SFM. Of course, this is only broken when the environment has ridiculous things like Sword of Feast and Famine and Batterskull in it, but then again, maybe Steamflogger Boss is banned in a parallel universe Standard where doubling the number of contraptions a rigger can assemble is insane.
Ancient Grudge was reprinted to curb the power of the swords a bit, but if it had been in the Standard environment with SFM it wouldn't have helped as much as people seem to think - it's not like SFM didn't die to removal or counters in the first place; it's the overwhelming speed and card advantage generated by it that wins games, not the lack of good removal in the environment.
Yeah this is completely wrong, and why SFM doesn't dominate other formats like Legacy. The Mystic itself is pretty irrelevant, you aren't doing anything useful with a squire without equipment, which is why a card like Ancient Grudge is so insane against it.
Tinker puts any artifact in your deck directly into play. SFM puts an equipment into your hand, and then a turn later into play, for even more mana. Those two things are not at all similar.
SFM doesn't have "overwhelming speed" it is incredibly slow. The lack of good removal for it was the problem, since decks had to play very narrow hate cards like Divine Offering due to Oblivion Ring or Qasali Pridemage not being in the format. There also wasn't spell snare, Thoughtseize (Discards SFM and ALL her targets) or artifact destruction that gives an advantage, namely grudge. Grim Lavamancer is pretty good against her too.
But the majority of the time when SFM comes down you have about one turn to answer her or pretty much just lose. Sure you can remove the equipment but by the time you actually manage to, you're usually already extremely far behind. Sure she's no Tinker but she's about as close as you can get in the Modern Era of Magic especially now that she can even "Tinker" up creatures like Batterskull.
Let's see, She's cast, and then I can answer her with removal. Then the next turn she puts am equipment into play - I can still answer her before next upkeep, or just the equipment. Then, assuming she fetched Batterskull, I have only 4 more turns to find an answer - how terrifying. That's turn 7, assuming no blockers or removal. Is this seriously what passes for broken these days?
This is what you call, "pretty much just losing?"
SFM is a great card, I'm not denying it, but when you compare it to tinker, you make yourself out to be an idiot. Legacy has every meaningful SFM target and it can't even crack the top 8. Modern has some insanely powerful cards, Goyf, KoTR, Dark Confidant, Aether Vial. These care cards SFM is LIKE, not Tinker. Tinker actually gives you 0-1 turns, either fetching half of Time Vault/Voltaic Key or Blightsteel Colossus. SFM kills on Turn 7.
I'm guessing Forsythe compared it to tinker to demonize it, or as I said, because he is an idiot. People clearly dislike the card and want it banned, fine. But don't go on and on about how broken it is and how it is like a legitimately broken card when it isn't.
If you've been following R&D relatively recently, there's been a big pattern on the kinds of cards they hate and usually target for bans.
In particular: tutors and fast mana.
Multiple developers have mentioned the problems that these kinds of cards cause. That's why I think it's unlikely that Chrome Mox gets unbanned, and ESPECIALLY Stoneforge Mystic. The latter had a full-length article written by Aaron Forsythe detailing how badly they screwed up with Stoneforge Mystic. I highly doubt Stoneforge Mystic is coming back after Forsythe wrote up that article. And when he compared that card to Tinker, its future is grim indeed.
That certainly makes Aaron Forsythe an idiot - but I already knew that. Comparing SFM to tinker is like saying Birthing Pod is Tinker + Survival of the Fittest.
Things that dominate standard because cards like Pridemage, Ancient Grudge and Thoughtseize don't exist have no business being compared to spells that just win the game.
The typical banned cards are fast mana, and cheap, instant speed or unrestricted tutors. Enlightened Tutor is more likely to get banned than Burning Wish or Cunning Wish, just as an example. Cards like Fabricate or Steelshapers Gift, while tutors, are generally as safe as they come.
I think due to the interaction with Mox Opal, we aren't going to ever see Chrome Mox in the format, ditto the artifact lands. Give the banning of Rite of Flame at least they are being consistent and I can live with it even if I don't particularly like it.
I feel the same way about the GSZ ban. I would much rather it be a card, but if they are going to ban cards like AV, SFM and Bitterblossom, which are clearly worse than GSZ, then you have to ban GSZ. You can't take away the strongest two drops in other colors and then give green 8 goyfs and KoTR, not to mention as many Teegs and Pridemages as they care to run.
I wish WOTC would just unban a huge number of cards and then ban some more if they become problems, because honestly they have no earthly idea what they are doing.
They banned cards like SFM and Ancestral Visions because of how strong they are in Legacy, a format that at the time contained Mental Misstep (Which was never in Modern). One they took that card out, a whopping 0 Visions in the top 16 of SCG, and 0 SFM in the top 8, something like 4 in the top 16. All of the top 8 decks were blue, yet none played Vision.
Again, SFM and Vision were banned because of how awesome they are in Legacy . . . except they aren't. Vision was also banned because it gets paired with Jace, yet another card not in the format.
At least with some of their bans (Bitterblossom, Cloudpost) it is just one deck. They killed whole archetypes by axing Jace, Mystic and Vision.
I was semi trolling, and semi being honest. He is looking for an artifact that can be useful outside of pitching to TFK. Why not just run 4 wurmcoils knowing you can pitch one or 2 and keep one as a finisher.
You remind me of other engineers I know. They crunch numbers and do calculations and come to the conclusion something wont work because of this or that. Whan I ask if they tried it in real life, they say why should they, they proved it wouldnt work.
Serious talk - have you played the format? Are you going to run a 6 mana does nothing when it enters the battlefield artifact as your finisher when the premier aggro deck is running Path to Exile as a 4-of with multiple bant charms?
There is a reason Wurmcoil Engine sees zero play. If you are tapping out for a 6 drop that gets answered by a commonly played 1 cmc spell, your deck is bad.
It's one possible metric, but it isn't the only one. For standard-legal sets, flavor can be seen as equally or more important (such as the earlier discussion about why Goyf wasn't reprinted in Innistrad). For special products, price clearly isn't the only metric; look at the roster in FtV: Legends or FtV: Exiled. Thanks god they reprinted Omnath and Kird Ape! The prices could've spiraled out of control!
See above. If demand / price were the only thing motivating the decisions for what goes in special products, I'm sure they could've found something better (read: pricier) than Serendib Efreet.
Primeval Titan has been printed in two Core Sets and currently hovers around $9. I hardly think that qualifies as "extremely rare".
Every precon has chare rares intended to lower the price, that's how they sell them. That's why Goblin Guide, Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, Elspeth etc all appeared in Precons. Just because they include a bunch of junk cards along with those doesn't mean that's the point of the decks.
There is a precon full of junk and 4 dismember whose entire purpose is to keep the cost of dismember in check. Almost every other card in it is rotating.
As far as Primeval Titan, first, note the past tense. It was the chase Mythic of M11, and reached heights of 40-50 dollars similar to Baneslayer Angel in M10. That was the first mythic which people endlessly griped about.
I never said anything about reprints; I never even said I didn't support a reprint of Goyf. Hell I'd love one; I don't own any.
What I take issue with is the definition of "format-warping" as "not everyone can play any deck they want".
Having said that, I don't think secondary market value should be the primary motivation for reprinting cards.
You do understand that price is set by demand? So secondary market value is the only thing that makes sense when determining which cards to reprint?
Do you think if they reprint a duel deck featuring Birds of Paradise instead of Noble Hierarch and Kavu Predator instead of Goyf people are going to buy it? There are already enough of those cards for everyone, that's why they cost nothing.
Format warping cards are only a problem when they are extremely rare. Mana Leak and Dismember are format warping. Jace, The Mind Sculptor and Primeval Titan were format warping. Two of those cards were problems for people, two of them nobody cares about.
Is there anyone here that has a playset of goyfs and want it banned? The argument of "reprint or ban it" is the most biased argument ever. Basically it means "well I cant play with them then no one else can."
People make it seem as though every deck in the formats have goyf. It's the best threat in the format but it's not oppressing any cards. What are these 2 drops that can't see the light of day because of goyf? Putrid leech? Kavu predator? Wren run vanquisher? Elf decks still run wren run and punishing fire zoo decks also run predator? Leech is semi playable at best in only 1 deck anyways. Merfolk doesn't splash for goyf nor faeries, trim decks don't,teachings don't,5cc doesn't, shamans dOnt, living end nor melira decks or dnt.
Some of these decks are tier 2 but saying goyf is warping the format is untrue. It's only oppressing the people who come on the 4 separate threads to comPlain that they don't have goyf. If only 1 card is expensive then it just means things are doing well and players could invest in goyf if they really wanted to play the deck or play one of the many other archetypes. Reprint or ban is a terrible argument.
Edit: yes I have 2 playsets of goyfs but I'm not totally against it getting reprinted (which it wont). But the arguments in these thread is just cryfests.
The only deck running Faeries runs Goyf, UG faeries. Mystical Teachings isn't a deck, it is a card that isn't seeing any competitive play. 5cc doesn't exist, Melira combo can and does play Goyf, and Living End? Are you Serious? The deck actually cannot run any 2 drops. Kavu Predator sees play in exactly one deck, that runs goyf. Putrid Leech isn't a card in Modern, no one is paying BG instead of 1g for a worse creature. Are you seriously claiming shamans is a deck?
You can't compare a card like Goyf that has been out of print for years to a card that dominates just standard. There are actually not enough Goyfs for Modern to catch on and be a format. It is the exact problem with Legacy, you can't have the format become overly popular, because there simply aren't enough cards to go around.
I don't care how many copies of Goyf you personally own. He's a staple rare from the last drafted set of a block that had a huge number of rares.
You sound exactly like the people during the Legacy price bubble, or right before Vintage crashed and burned talking about how id you don't want to pay some ridiculous amount of money, don't play the format. This has happened plenty of times before, people won't play, and the format will die. That's why the argument isn't just people "crying" about not having a card.
These arguments just show a complete lack of understanding of supply and demand. "Just invest in Dual Lands" "Just invest in Moxen" is ridiculous. If people actually tried to do this, the price would skyrocket, and it would still be impossible because more people want to play these cards than there exist copies to be played.
SFM is actually starting to make the cut in Vintage now since she can tutor up something game breaking like Skullclamp. Also Stoneforge Mystic is currently banned in every non-eternal format and she was the center piece of a tier 1 deck in Legacy and part of multiple other tier 1/1.5/2 decks. I think its safe to say that she's a lot closer to Tinker than Diabolic Tutor is to Demonic tutor. And as they continue to print more and more equipment, she'll just get better and better.
First, nobody even uses Skullclamp in Vintage, it sees almost no play. Shops doesn't want it, Fish doesn't want to kill their own creatures to draw cards, and SFM isn't being used in any competitive Vintage decks. Dredge, Gush, ANT, nobody needs it and the format is full of artifact hate so no reason to run it in fish decks and give up your advantage of not having artifacts.
Preordain is now banned in every non-eternal format, I guess that means it is just like Ancestral Recall. Do you see how weak that argument is? Stoneforge Mystic isn't banned because it is too good in Modern, it is banned because they don't want decks that look similar to Caw-Blade to exist. Splinter Twin is OK for some reason, but not SFM, because that's their weirdo take on the format. You don't have to pretend justify it by calling it broken like tinker, that just indicates you don't understand how tinker works or why it is broken.
The difference between a restricted tutor and an unrestricted tutor is huge. Demonic Tutor puts a card from your library into your hand, while Rampant Growth puts a card from your library into play. One of them is fundamentally broken, and the other is a staple of green that will never be banned.
SFM was never even all that great in Legacy, NO RUG, Team America were all top decks that didn't use her, not to mention Zoo, Hive Mind, Landstill, the list goes on. Mental Misstep was the card that dominated legacy, SFM was a creature card a few decks played - whoop dee doo.
Lol, SFM is like Tinker in the same way that Diabolic Tutor is like Demonic Tutor. Being similar to a card while not being even a fraction as powerful is irrelevant.
With the lands being banned all you really have to do is keep a high number creatures off the board and cranial plating isn't so bad. really only blue and black struggle with destroying artifacts, and they have answers with removal or other niche cards. Affinity even with plating is just as easily hated out as elves.
With Darksteel Citadel, Plating, and either Mox Opal or Springlead Dum, every creature the deck draws is a serious threat. Inkmoth Nexus is a 3 turn clock, and it isn't hard to make Blinkmoth nexus one either.
They are always going to have 4 platings, can every deck really afford 4 artifact removal spells in the board? Decks that run Grudge and Pridemage are fine, but it is not easily hated out like elves, I can't win just by having a few sweepers.
Yeah, Wizards hates mana cost circumvention, that's why they continually reprint ways to circumvent mana cost. Phyrexian Mana, Delve, Cascade, most recently Unburial Rites - they actually love this mechanic. Force of Will (the whole cycle) Snuff Out, Commandeer, Fireblast - the list goes on.
SFM lets you cheat very specific cards into play, and she is a very limited tutor, attached to a squire. Tons of cards help you cheat specific cards into play, or act as limited tutors, neither get banned. When you combine them and make it aggressively costed, instead of getting an unplayable card like Etherium Sculptor or Master Transmuter, you get SFM. It is very good, not broken, except admittedly for a very short period in standard.
I already answered every issue you bring up with SFM in previous posts, refute those if you care to, but she just isn't a problem in older formats, I'm not going to go through and list the reasons why again.
Also, I don't want to highjack this conversation towards SFM, because that is NOT the problem I have with Modern, it is at best symptomatic of the problem, which is too many cards banned for the wrong reasons. I thought it was hypocrisy that they had a card like GSZ in the format but not SFM (GSZ is much better), but I would much rather have both than neither, and the same with Ponder and Preordain, or Jace, Ancestral and Bitterblossom.
This format feels pretty safe, other than part of Twin.dec I can't think of a single card you would want to ban - too bad it is also boring as hell.
If people want to build their Jace deck, their Faerie Deck, their GSZ deck, I think you should probably let them, chances are it won't ruin the format, and if one deck dominates, it is pretty easy to correct (if this is the philosophy as a whole, not in the current environment). It isn't like losing to Hypergenesis, Dark Depths or Elves on turn 2 before your lands become untapped, there are plenty of answers, you have plenty of time to play a game of magic. That's the type of format that excited people, that they announced, and not what they have delivered.
I was arguing with someone elsewhere that Jace was in no danger of being banned in Legacy, because he's just a worse version of Brainstorm, which if you have played both you know to be true. But seriously, would anyone play Legacy if they banned Brainstorm, Force of Will, and then all the fast combos that Force of Will is there to help protect against? That format sounds awful, but it does sound a lot like this other format I know . . .
Remember when they announced the format, and everyone was immediately like, "WTF, Hypergenesis isn't banned, that's retarded". Then they did some weirdo team testing and Hypergenesis was the best deck, surprising no one.
It really isn't that hard, they had old big extended and OE to draw from, and they still missed it by a country mile. It isn't like when they first announced legacy and they had never done anything remotely similar before.
They got people excited, Modern prices skyrocketed, but now they are dropping like a stone because when you ban cards arbitrarily without testing the format is garbage.
Everyone knew Thopter/Depths was a problem, and Hypergenesis too. People knew Glimpse was an issue, it had been dominating OE since the first day it was unabanned and was the most contentious card in the format (which included just Dark Depths).
Jace, SFM, Visions, BB, Valakut, MM, (Cloudpost) were not known to be problems. Maybe Cloudpost would have gotten banned anyway, maybe ALL of these cards would have gotten banned, but everyone predicted Zoo and Cloudpost would be the best decks since they were the untouched OE decks, and lo and behold they were.
This banned thing really isn't that hard. They went out of there way to make sure a few boogeyman (Faeries, Jace, SFM) didn't ruin the format, so instead they ruined the format themselves.
Who cares if Faeries wins a Modern tournament? Who doesn't know how to beat Faeries, a deck that wasn't even good in old extended! Too many SFM in the top 8? Try Ancient Grudge! All the mana and counters in the world won't protect batterskull from Krosan Grip, and it doesn't even beat through a Goyf.
I think Glimmer/Cloudpost was going to be an issue without Wasteland, and I think Rite of Flame is just too good for a format that lacks Force, but they missed those the first time anyway.
The only people who were happy when they announced the Modern banned list before Philly were standard players sick of Caw-blade, not people who had tested the format (this includes Pros).
I don't think people have a tough time accepting that Jace or SFM might have to get banned - we've seen them banned from three formats now. I do think the philosophy that lead to their being banned before they were even a problem is indicative of the no-fun feel to Modern. Got a deck that does something powerful? Don't even bother, if it isn't a Goyf it'll be banned.
I remember people swearing off the set because it didn't contain Masques and we missed out on Brainstorm. Now we don't even have playable 1 mana filter cantrips. Not only did they get it wrong the first time, they are making it worse!
In a world of shocklands, Dark Confidant is not that good. You generally need an average CMC of 2 or less, so the only deck I know that plays him well is Merfolk. Doran takes too much damage off of thoughtseize and lands. He doesn't beat for enough damage in Zoo and is in the wrong color. He also makes Thoughtseize much, much worse except against pure combo.
There's no SFM to get Batterskull, no Jitte, so no real lifegain. Zoo plays 8 1 cmc answers, and usually 3-4 2 cmc answers, assuming you aren't forced to chump and he doesn't kill you. There is a reason he is seeing little play.
I sold my Stoneforges before the ban because I saw it coming in Standard a mile away, and I got them all through drafting anyway. The only people blind to the power of Mystic are the ones who think it is too good a tinker-esque, when it isn't. No one is blind to the power of all those other cards I mentioned like Dark Confidant of Cryptic. Do you remember the constant pleas for Cryptic Command to be banned since it was the most unfair card ever printed - I do. I don't know why you think this will be some grind it out format when Zoo, Affiinity, Doran and Twin decks are all top contenders, and while Living End can grind out wins it isn't exactly a deck I want to play SFM against.
There are actual 0 rogue decks doing well in this format, every deck is either an updated old extended deck or an updated standard deck. What other 99 percent of the card pool are you talking about? Zoo? Affinity? Merfolk? Seriously where are all these cool old cards popping up? Living End was around years ago, it is only decent because they banned all the better cards from better decks. I'm not saying we need to bring back Thopter/Depths to run roughshod over the format, but all these decks existed back then, they were just worse. The "newest" competitive deck is Pester-Twin - thank god they didn't just make a format where you could port over standard decks like Caw-Blade
First, calling SFM "Mana Acceleration" is ridiculous. She has an ability that can save you mana on the casting cost of some equipment, namely equipment with > 2 CMC. They ban fast mana, like Rite in Flame, Chrome Mox, Sol Ring a.k.a. Cloudpost, things that actually accelerate you, not things that occasionally let you cheat a slightly more expensive card into play.
Second is tutors, which I already went over, are only banned when they are instant speed or unrestricted and very cheap. Stoneforge Mystic is neither. We are talking about cards like Demonic Tutor, Mystical Tutor vs. Enlightened Tutor and Personal Tutor.
The difference in cost here and being unrestricted tutors is important, compare these cards.
Vampiric tutor/Imperial Seal, B, costs a card and 2 life, sorcery speed, unrestricted tutor - Broken, Banned or Restricted.
Steelshaper's Gift, W, replaces itself and costs no life, sorcery speed restricted tutor - Sees 0 play.
Demonic Tutor - 1B, replaces itself, unrestricted tutor - banned or restricted
Grimm Tutor - 1BB, replaces itself, costs 3 life, unrestricted tutor - sees almost 0 play.
Outside of CB/Top I don't even know if Enlightened Tutor sees any mainstream play either. Look at Mystical Tutor vs Personal Tutor. Type restriction, speed and CMC make a huge difference in playability.
SFM isn't anything like the tutors or fast mana they ban. I don't care if they compare it to Tinker, Black Lotus or Time Walk, they banned it, much like Bitterblossom, because they don't like they deck it represents and because people are irrationally angry at it. I doubt Jace would be banned in Modern if it had been in standard for 2 years with Bloodbraid Elf.
I'm actually unhappy with this format, and SFM is not even in the top 5 reasons why. Too many cards are banned or unplayable due to the format that has been crafted, and the ensuing field is not very interesting or diverse.
I've already stopped playing the format, Innistrad standard looks to be more fun, which is pretty sad given how new a format Modern is. You can talk about how big the potential card pool is, all I see is how small the pool of viable decks are. There is just nothing to get excited about in the format, Legacy has more interesting decks and Standard is fresher.
They banned a bunch of cards to make sure it wasn't a bunch of standard, extended and legacy ports, and it became of format of exclusively standard, extended and legacy ports, except half of the ports are missing or damaged.
Again, that was Standard, welcome to Modern. Counterspells vs Ancient Grudge are pretty bad, ditto Pridesmage. You don't have FOW or MM, so Mana Leak and variants are your best bet, and they are awful in the meta right now.
Look at the decks you are up against. Merfolk, Burn, Living End, Zoo, Affinity, Splinter Twin and Doran/BWG Junk. Which one do you think cares if you aren't tapping out on turn 3? Have you ever played Mana Leak vs Affinity, Burn or Merfolk? Might as well mulligan. Living End actually has a better end game and control style of play than most control decks, and boasts better wins vs Affinity and Zoo than Tron or Teachings. Doran run 6-8 thoughtseize effects, it is pretty hard to get them with counterspells.
The conditions that made SFM awesome in Legacy and Standard don't exist anymore, especially not in Modern. There are tons of good cards that aren't good in Modern, Dark Confidant, Cryptic Command, Aether Vial, Mana Leak, Punishing Fire, and more than a few of the banned cards. The type of deck you are used to SFM being in isn't good, and likely can't ever be good with the cheap, efficient creatures and lack of efficient counters, especially given Aether Vial.
Don't talk about SFM in Legacy for the past few months, because she was the product of a warped MM metagame in which CB/Top was unplayable and Landstill/SFM were the new control cards because they had CMC 2. Now there is no cheap answer to Thoughtseize, or Top, or Path or Bolt or even Lackey. Now SFM is only fringe playable in BWG Junk style decks, or decks that are not considered top tier like Stax or mother of runes decks.
Yeah this is completely wrong, and why SFM doesn't dominate other formats like Legacy. The Mystic itself is pretty irrelevant, you aren't doing anything useful with a squire without equipment, which is why a card like Ancient Grudge is so insane against it.
Tinker puts any artifact in your deck directly into play. SFM puts an equipment into your hand, and then a turn later into play, for even more mana. Those two things are not at all similar.
SFM doesn't have "overwhelming speed" it is incredibly slow. The lack of good removal for it was the problem, since decks had to play very narrow hate cards like Divine Offering due to Oblivion Ring or Qasali Pridemage not being in the format. There also wasn't spell snare, Thoughtseize (Discards SFM and ALL her targets) or artifact destruction that gives an advantage, namely grudge. Grim Lavamancer is pretty good against her too.
Let's see, She's cast, and then I can answer her with removal. Then the next turn she puts am equipment into play - I can still answer her before next upkeep, or just the equipment. Then, assuming she fetched Batterskull, I have only 4 more turns to find an answer - how terrifying. That's turn 7, assuming no blockers or removal. Is this seriously what passes for broken these days?
This is what you call, "pretty much just losing?"
SFM is a great card, I'm not denying it, but when you compare it to tinker, you make yourself out to be an idiot. Legacy has every meaningful SFM target and it can't even crack the top 8. Modern has some insanely powerful cards, Goyf, KoTR, Dark Confidant, Aether Vial. These care cards SFM is LIKE, not Tinker. Tinker actually gives you 0-1 turns, either fetching half of Time Vault/Voltaic Key or Blightsteel Colossus. SFM kills on Turn 7.
I'm guessing Forsythe compared it to tinker to demonize it, or as I said, because he is an idiot. People clearly dislike the card and want it banned, fine. But don't go on and on about how broken it is and how it is like a legitimately broken card when it isn't.
That certainly makes Aaron Forsythe an idiot - but I already knew that. Comparing SFM to tinker is like saying Birthing Pod is Tinker + Survival of the Fittest.
Things that dominate standard because cards like Pridemage, Ancient Grudge and Thoughtseize don't exist have no business being compared to spells that just win the game.
The typical banned cards are fast mana, and cheap, instant speed or unrestricted tutors. Enlightened Tutor is more likely to get banned than Burning Wish or Cunning Wish, just as an example. Cards like Fabricate or Steelshapers Gift, while tutors, are generally as safe as they come.
I think due to the interaction with Mox Opal, we aren't going to ever see Chrome Mox in the format, ditto the artifact lands. Give the banning of Rite of Flame at least they are being consistent and I can live with it even if I don't particularly like it.
I feel the same way about the GSZ ban. I would much rather it be a card, but if they are going to ban cards like AV, SFM and Bitterblossom, which are clearly worse than GSZ, then you have to ban GSZ. You can't take away the strongest two drops in other colors and then give green 8 goyfs and KoTR, not to mention as many Teegs and Pridemages as they care to run.
They banned cards like SFM and Ancestral Visions because of how strong they are in Legacy, a format that at the time contained Mental Misstep (Which was never in Modern). One they took that card out, a whopping 0 Visions in the top 16 of SCG, and 0 SFM in the top 8, something like 4 in the top 16. All of the top 8 decks were blue, yet none played Vision.
Again, SFM and Vision were banned because of how awesome they are in Legacy . . . except they aren't. Vision was also banned because it gets paired with Jace, yet another card not in the format.
At least with some of their bans (Bitterblossom, Cloudpost) it is just one deck. They killed whole archetypes by axing Jace, Mystic and Vision.
Serious talk - have you played the format? Are you going to run a 6 mana does nothing when it enters the battlefield artifact as your finisher when the premier aggro deck is running Path to Exile as a 4-of with multiple bant charms?
There is a reason Wurmcoil Engine sees zero play. If you are tapping out for a 6 drop that gets answered by a commonly played 1 cmc spell, your deck is bad.
Every precon has chare rares intended to lower the price, that's how they sell them. That's why Goblin Guide, Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, Elspeth etc all appeared in Precons. Just because they include a bunch of junk cards along with those doesn't mean that's the point of the decks.
There is a precon full of junk and 4 dismember whose entire purpose is to keep the cost of dismember in check. Almost every other card in it is rotating.
As far as Primeval Titan, first, note the past tense. It was the chase Mythic of M11, and reached heights of 40-50 dollars similar to Baneslayer Angel in M10. That was the first mythic which people endlessly griped about.
You do understand that price is set by demand? So secondary market value is the only thing that makes sense when determining which cards to reprint?
Do you think if they reprint a duel deck featuring Birds of Paradise instead of Noble Hierarch and Kavu Predator instead of Goyf people are going to buy it? There are already enough of those cards for everyone, that's why they cost nothing.
Format warping cards are only a problem when they are extremely rare. Mana Leak and Dismember are format warping. Jace, The Mind Sculptor and Primeval Titan were format warping. Two of those cards were problems for people, two of them nobody cares about.
The only deck running Faeries runs Goyf, UG faeries. Mystical Teachings isn't a deck, it is a card that isn't seeing any competitive play. 5cc doesn't exist, Melira combo can and does play Goyf, and Living End? Are you Serious? The deck actually cannot run any 2 drops. Kavu Predator sees play in exactly one deck, that runs goyf. Putrid Leech isn't a card in Modern, no one is paying BG instead of 1g for a worse creature. Are you seriously claiming shamans is a deck?
You can't compare a card like Goyf that has been out of print for years to a card that dominates just standard. There are actually not enough Goyfs for Modern to catch on and be a format. It is the exact problem with Legacy, you can't have the format become overly popular, because there simply aren't enough cards to go around.
I don't care how many copies of Goyf you personally own. He's a staple rare from the last drafted set of a block that had a huge number of rares.
You sound exactly like the people during the Legacy price bubble, or right before Vintage crashed and burned talking about how id you don't want to pay some ridiculous amount of money, don't play the format. This has happened plenty of times before, people won't play, and the format will die. That's why the argument isn't just people "crying" about not having a card.
These arguments just show a complete lack of understanding of supply and demand. "Just invest in Dual Lands" "Just invest in Moxen" is ridiculous. If people actually tried to do this, the price would skyrocket, and it would still be impossible because more people want to play these cards than there exist copies to be played.
First, nobody even uses Skullclamp in Vintage, it sees almost no play. Shops doesn't want it, Fish doesn't want to kill their own creatures to draw cards, and SFM isn't being used in any competitive Vintage decks. Dredge, Gush, ANT, nobody needs it and the format is full of artifact hate so no reason to run it in fish decks and give up your advantage of not having artifacts.
Preordain is now banned in every non-eternal format, I guess that means it is just like Ancestral Recall. Do you see how weak that argument is? Stoneforge Mystic isn't banned because it is too good in Modern, it is banned because they don't want decks that look similar to Caw-Blade to exist. Splinter Twin is OK for some reason, but not SFM, because that's their weirdo take on the format. You don't have to pretend justify it by calling it broken like tinker, that just indicates you don't understand how tinker works or why it is broken.
The difference between a restricted tutor and an unrestricted tutor is huge. Demonic Tutor puts a card from your library into your hand, while Rampant Growth puts a card from your library into play. One of them is fundamentally broken, and the other is a staple of green that will never be banned.
SFM was never even all that great in Legacy, NO RUG, Team America were all top decks that didn't use her, not to mention Zoo, Hive Mind, Landstill, the list goes on. Mental Misstep was the card that dominated legacy, SFM was a creature card a few decks played - whoop dee doo.
With Darksteel Citadel, Plating, and either Mox Opal or Springlead Dum, every creature the deck draws is a serious threat. Inkmoth Nexus is a 3 turn clock, and it isn't hard to make Blinkmoth nexus one either.
They are always going to have 4 platings, can every deck really afford 4 artifact removal spells in the board? Decks that run Grudge and Pridemage are fine, but it is not easily hated out like elves, I can't win just by having a few sweepers.